2 20 55 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/18ab089ee94d63ffd9e7d04ee1d65c33.mp4 7d9e214b99d8ee9a56603bf83ef4c16e https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/bd38c834e284b300aec3bb350b6559a0.pdf c65882cf093a1122f482853b3eeea6c7 PDF Text Text Oral History Interview with Janet Gearin Interview Conducted by Laura Belmonte February 22, 2004 OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Edmon Low Library ● Oklahoma State University ©2004 �OKEQ Oral History Project Interview History Interviewer: Laura Belmonte Transcriber: Janet Gearin Editors: Anika Benthem The recording and transcript of this interview were processed at the Oklahoma State University Library in Stillwater, Oklahoma. Project Detail The OKEQ Oral History Project is a series of interviews documenting the rich contributions of LGBTQ community members in the state of Oklahoma, with a particular emphasis on Tulsa and the surrounding area. These interviews were conducted by members of Oklahomans for Equality, formerly Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. Legal Status Scholarly use of the recordings and transcripts of the interview with Janet Gearin is unrestricted. The interview agreement was signed on February 22, 2004. 2 �OKEQ Oral History Project Janet Gearin Oral History Interview [Editor note – Janet provided an update in March 2026 which is at the end of this transcript in an Addendum.] Interviewed by Laura Belmonte February 22, 2004 Tulsa, Oklahoma Belmonte It is Sunday, February 22, 2004, and I am Laura Belmonte with Jennifer Davis, and today we are interviewing Janet Gearin. Janet, will you just begin with some basic, biographical information? Gearin You want my age and all of that? (Laughs) Belmonte Your birthday, occupation, you know, that sort of stuff. Gearin Now, I just turned February 3. I was born in 1947, so I’m fifty-seven years old. I’m from Oklahoma, born in Vinita. Didn’t live there very long. Folks lived mostly in Duncan, and I actually finished high school in Lindsay, Oklahoma, which is south of Oklahoma City. When I finished high school, I decided that I wanted to go to college, did so, and went to the University of—Oklahoma College of Liberal Arts, I should say. It had changed—it was OCW, which was Oklahoma College for Women, but the year before I went, they actually changed it to a co-ed school, so that was really quite an experience to be there at a university that had been a women’s college for fifty-some-odd years. I had a really good time there. I was a biology major, minored in chemistry, and I was pre-med at that time. When it got time for me to go and interview at the University of Oklahoma for med school, I was declined admission, primarily because I was a woman, but at that time, I didn’t really want to take issue with it. I kind of started to get cold feet anyway, so I—after I finished my degree there, I went ahead and worked for a year at Saint Francis. I worked in labor and delivery and decided that that was my life. I really like labor and delivery and thought seriously that I would be like a midwife. I stayed there for a little over a year. I applied to nursing school and was accepted into the University of Colorado and was there for three years getting a bachelor’s of science and nursing. However, along the way, while I 3 �was in that process of three years, I realized that there was very little work and employment for midwives. Unless you lived in Kentucky or parts of Tennessee, you really couldn’t practice that. I made a course change as I was in nursing school and decided that I really psychiatry. From that point on, I became invested in pursuing a career in psychiatric nursing. While there, I was talked to by my professor, and she suggested that I consider going to get my master’s degree and becoming what they were calling a clinical specialist. It was a brand new role, been out for a couple of years. I looked at the various universities across the country, and basically, there were ten that offered that degree: places like Rutgers, Boston University, Case Western University, University of Colorado, University of California, San Francisco, University of Washington—really great places. Had no way of being able to travel and seeing where I wanted to go, so just kind of talking with various professors and ruling out places because they only accepted men, which was really (Laughs)—I had no idea that I would get accepted to all of them, and I felt that surely if I found one that would take me, that would answer that question. I ended up getting accepted to all ten universities, and then I had to make a choice. I decided that I wanted to go west and went to the University of California, San Francisco and lived there for two years while I worked on my master’s degree. Then decided at that point in time that I really needed to come home. My parents were aging; I had a grandmother that was in her eighties, and I felt like I really needed to come back to Oklahoma. I’d always said that if I got my degree, I would come back to Oklahoma and try and help upgrade nursing here because it was really quite antiquated compared to how progressive it was on each coast. Did come back. The only way I could come back was by working with the Department of Veterans Affairs because no one else was going to pay me the salary that I felt like I at least needed and wanted, so I did come back, work with the VA in Muskogee. Started there March of ’75, and I’ve been with the VA ever since then. Opened a brand new mental health clinic in Muskogee. I was the first person they hired for that clinic, and then, when we moved up to Tulsa in ’79, I opened the clinic there, helped get that set up. Then three years ago, we relocated here in Tulsa to 41st and Mingo and opened that one. Actually have now been in three different mental health clinics, but all with the VA. I now have twenty-nine years of experience there and work with veterans within mental health, and love my work. I truly do. I have still great energy and a gift for my work and love it, dearly love it. That’s kind of where I’ve been. The other parts of my life, in terms of more personal, is I’m the youngest of six children, and it was yours, mine, and our—I’m the “our” child. I have, surviving, I have two older brothers and one older sister; the other two are deceased. There’s a difference of twenty-one years between me and my 4 �oldest sister, and the next youngest is eleven years older than I am. For the most part, I was really kind of an alone child who grew up pretty much kind of on my own, latchkey kid. My father was a grocery man and did that until he retired because of health reasons. Parents are both deceased. When I was in college in Chickasha, realized that I probably was not quite like everybody else in terms of my sexual orientation, and that’s really kind of when I began to explore some of that. Belmonte Now, have you classified yourself as homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual for most of your adult life? Gearin Homosexual. My family has pretty much known about that for the last thirty years. Didn’t really while I was out and away and going to school. It really was never talked about, you know, any of that. My one, big, huge regret is that my mother died before we really had a chance to talk about that because I was really very young. I was just into my thirties when she died and was in a very early relationship, my first real relationship, and just didn’t really get a chance to talk about that, and I regret that. I really wish that I had. I’ve had talks with brothers and sisters and my father, had a good talk with him about it. You know, that’s kind of how that got involved. When I started work here in Tulsa, I never really belonged to any kind of organization. I know that part of your interest, I guess, still is TOHR [Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights], but— Belmonte Not specifically, the whole community. Gearin Okay. When I moved here, I was in a relationship, and it was another nurse that was with the VA, and she had to medically retire because she was injured on the job. Altogether, we were in a twenty-five year relationship. I have a long history here in Tulsa. I’ve met lots of—I don’t even know how many hundreds of people I’ve met over the years. I feel that I’ve had a very rich life, and it’s been very different from my professional life, though, because I’m not exactly out, as you would say, in terms of my work, but I know that those folks have known me all these years. A majority of them do know, and I do have a couple of really good friends at work that do know. When I was—my relationship ended a few years ago, it was very difficult for me, and I confided in the psychiatrist that I work with here. She already knew pretty much anyway, so without her help and my other friends’ help, I really would have had a difficult time. Belmonte How old were you when you had your first homosexual experience? Gearin Let’s see, I think I was fifteen, if I remember…I believe I was fifteen! And it was in the back of a car! (Laughter) That’s not even the best part. The best part is that it was moving; it was being driven by the girl’s mother. We were 5 �on our way to California. I was just about to panic; I’ll never forget that. That was probably the most priceless experience I had in my life. Belmonte Had you suspected there was something different? When do you recall thinking that for the first time? Gearin Actually, it was because of her. When I was in high school—this will really—well, I’ve already told you how old I am. I was in band. I was a very active band student, a very good musician. Belmonte What years did you go to high school? Gearin This would have been, let’s see, I was in ninth grade, so this would have been freshman in high school. It would’ve ben ’61? There were a group of us girls that we’d hang out. The other girls were a year older than I, and so they would have been sophomores in high school. It was so funny. We really were close; we were really tight knit. All of the sudden I realized—I went to class one day, went to band; band was first thing in the morning, and it was like, “Okay, we’re not talking to Vivienne.” “We’re not? Why?” “She’s queer.” I thought, well—my definition was queer was “odd.” I had no other definition for queer. I’m thinking, “Well, what’s that got to do with not talking to her?” Had not sexualized this at all. Had not a clue. I was just so naïve. We go then to another class, and I’m sitting there, and I’m talking to one of the students before the class starts, and I said, “I don’t really understand what the heck you’re talking about. What’s so strange about Vivienne?” She said, “Janet, that’s not queer. Don’t you know what queer is?” I said, “Yes. It’s strange, odd.” I’m trying to remember what else it was in terms of Webster’s Dictionary. She said, “Janet, no. She’s a lesbian; she’s gay.” Or homosexual, I’m sorry, I don’t even think gay was being used then. I said, “Oh.” I still wasn’t even sure, and I thought, “Huh, how do you know that?” That was my question, was “How do you know that?” Belmonte What did she say? Gearin She said, “Well, one of the girls, Martha told us.” “Well, how does Martha know?” It was like—I was no big deal, so what’s the difference? As it was, the ostracization that she suffered, it was just terrible. I’ve never been able to understand how people discriminate. To me, you care for somebody because of who they are, the person that they are. This was a girl that we had all been friends for many years. We had grown up together, we were in band together, we ran around together, we did things together. Now, they’re saying that because she was queer and she was a homosexual, that now we could no longer have a relationship with her. I probably endured that for, I’d say, maybe a month. I just couldn’t do it anymore. It was like, I would 6 �watch her. She would walk by herself to class. Nobody walked with her, nobody talked with her. Boys made fun of her. Girls would—I mean, it was just awful, it was just absolutely awful. I literally could not tolerate it, and so I just decided one day, I’m walking with her. I went up and walked with her to class, I don’t care. You know, if they don’t like me, that’s it. If I’m like her, then I guess I’m like her. It was at that point in time that I really became very interested in humanity and how we treat each other for being different and not really understanding why we were treating people that differently and hating her and calling her names. I realized that there’s sometimes that you take a risk. I lost my naivete. I realize that there’s times where you take a risk for disclosure of some of this information. I really found her to be extremely brave. I don’t know how she did it because there was a lot of abuse that she endured. I never saw her cry, I never saw her break down, I never saw her complain. It was a really troubling time, but yet it was also a really good time. I became her friend. We had been friends, but it was like I just wasn’t going to let my relationship with her go because other people wouldn’t associate with her. Slowly but surely, and I don’t know that I ever got much in terms of repercussions because after all this time, I don’t really remember anybody saying anything negative to me or distancing themselves the way they did, but it was kind of like people followed suit as I started talking to her again and interacting with her again, other people, I guess, decided that it was okay. I think that maybe many of them felt badly because this was a small town, a small school. There were like sixty of us in my class and maybe about that many in the class ahead of me, so we’re really talking about a pretty small school. A lot of that started to stop and I don’t remember people calling her names or anything else like that after that. It was—but this was the young girl that—she kind of became infatuated with me, and I guess I could understand that, and I did become infatuated with her; she was really my first love. I had no idea until we were in the backseat of that car going to California, and she kissed me. It was like, “Oh.” (Laughs) “I don’t think we should be doing this,” because it was not just a kiss on the cheek, it was like—oh my word. Then I didn’t know what to do because I knew I shouldn’t say anything because her mother was driving. I’m all the sudden thinking, “Oh my god, is she able to see in the rearview mirror?” You know, all these are going through your mind. It’s like, “Stop it, stop it. Don’t do that to me. Stop it. Help. No, no, don’t do this.” Then I was like, “Oh no, you know, this is just not supposed to be happening.” It was really pretty traumatic for me, but at the same time, I think I really was kind of intrigued by it as well. That was the first time. Belmonte Did you wind up having a relationship with Vivienne? 7 �Gearin To some degree, yes. You’re in high school and you’re doing different things, and she was a year older, so this was the summer before her junior year and my sophomore year. We really only had two more years together. We really were good companions. She was a latchkey kid; I was a latchkey kid. We lived close in terms of proximity, and it was kind of a—it was really just a very good friendship. It never really did progress the way it probably would have if I had really known what was going on and understood things. I didn’t push for that much, and she didn’t either. When she went to college—she went to a small college, went to the Oklahoma College for Women—I followed her. I basically did follow her. Since the last—I didn’t want to go to a big university. I knew that I really was not prepared to go to a big university; I had always thought I would go to the University of Oklahoma. I had been—had music scholarships and everything, but just couldn’t quite cut that, so I made the choice to go to a small school, which was just about thirty-five miles from where I lived. They had changed that over that year, and it still was predominantly women, you know, young girls, young women that were at the university there, and it was just a fun—I had a marvelous time for those four years there, just had a marvelous time. Belmonte You know, many women’s colleges have had very active lesbian networks, social lives, you know, even through the twentieth century and late nineteenth century. How would you describe the climate of your school on that? Gearin It was extremely closeted, let me tell you. I didn’t really appreciate the dangers involved. Vivienne, my friend, was really—I think she was always kind of cut out to be the one that was going to be taking that step and be on the edge. She wanted the freedom; she wanted to be who she was and to do what she wanted to do. She ended up being expelled my freshman year for homosexuality, and it was like—I think it was pretty late into my second semester. Belmonte This would have been around, what, 1966? Gearin This was ’66, no ’65. No, I’m sorry. It was ’66, spring of ’66. It was really awful. It was an awful, awful time for me. I can remember, you know, having—we were in a social club. They didn’t have a sorority on this campus, but they had social clubs for women, and we belonged to the same social club. Several of the members were real upset that she was just flaunting her sexuality and had been caught several times in the dorm by the dorm mother and stuff like this, and was just making no secret of it. It was causing a lot of uncomfortableness. They had tried talking with her and everything else and knew that she and I had been friends and said, “Janet, please talk with her.” I did, and she said, “Hey, I’m in love. I don’t care.” I said, “But you have to care. You know, this is—you know, you’re also looking at your career, your life, you know. They’re saying that you may get 8 �kicked out.” She said, “I don’t believe that.” It’s against the wall, or something like this, I can’t even remember. It’s been so many years ago. At any rate, she did get caught and got turned in. I remember she was coming out of the auditorium from the business offices with her mother and father, and I just absolutely was devastated because she was gone. You know, she was gone. The next thing I knew—it was a couple of days later— I get called into the Dean of Women’s office and that was an even bigger eye-opener because at that point in time, I’m told that I’ve implicated that I’m one of the homosexuals on campus. I’m sitting there, and all of the sudden I realize, this is not when you really want to tell people who you are. I’ve just seen what happened to my very best friend and knew that that was, you know, going to be really difficult for her for a long time. I had seen the look on her parents’ face, and I thought, “I will deny. I will do what I have to do.” I really was just still very naïve, and it wasn’t very difficult for me, as well. I just didn’t say anything; I didn’t volunteer. I said, “Well, that’s really not true.” I really had not been active on campus, but yet, you know, this was what was going to be said. Didn’t know if it was—if I had been implicated or not, it was all very hush-hush. This was a very crucial time, and this woman was really not a very nice woman; she was pretty mean, pretty vindictive. She had already had a…kind of a reputation among the students anyway as being somebody that was very bold, and so I kept my mouth shut. She made some comments, and I can’t remember now what it was that—I went to my friends and I said, “What does this mean?” (Laughs) I think she used the term “active.” I think that was what it was. I had not a clue what she was really talking about. I could remember running over to one of the few women that I really, honestly did know that she was a homosexual or a lesbian, went running over to her room afterwards—she wasn’t even going to let me in the room because everybody then—talk about shutting down doors. I mean, it was just really serious business because I wasn’t the only one that got called into office; several did. As far as I know, nobody else got dismissed, but it was— Belmonte It sounds as if Vivienne was asked to name names. Gearin Oh, and that she did. She did. She named quite a few, which really was kind of bad. I felt worse in terms of her having done that because of the repercussions for all of us. I often wondered if she was angry at me. I’ve often wondered if she was angry at me, and that’s why she did that for some reason. Although, I didn’t know what I had done to anger her. Belmonte It’s possible they told her if she did, they’d let her off. Gearin Might have, yeah. It’s hard to say, not knowing what the conversation was. 9 �Belmonte It’s interesting because a lot of students, I think, have—you know, they think the ’60s, they think wild sexual revolution but don’t really understand that policies like this were still in place all over the country, that these changes were really not made until after the ’60s, in some ways. OSU had very similar policies during the same time. Do you know what happened to Vivienne, ultimately? Gearin Yeah, she left school. She and the woman that she was involved with, they both got expelled from school. She went to California, where she had a brother and a sister living out there, and lived out there for several years and then ended up moving back to Oklahoma. Lived in Norman and worked with the post office. When I actually had finished my master’s degree, that was ’75, I came back in ’75, she was working with the post office in Norman. We actually got to meet up again after all those years, and that— but I never did remember to ask her that question, why she did do that. It was like we didn’t talk about it. I don’t think—I spent a few months with her. Off-and-on, we had a talking relationship for maybe about a year, but we didn’t get to see each other very frequently because I was busy with my status in my career at Muskogee, and she was very busy there and was in a relationship. I never did really find out exactly why she did what she did what she did. We had never talked about it. It was just kind of—we never really talked about it at that point. She was pretty actively involved in the gay community in Oklahoma City, Norman. You know, she was really—I think she may have even been out at work. I’m not so sure that she might not have been. This would have been ’75. Belmonte Sounds like someone who would have just been compelled to do it. Gearin Absolutely. Belmonte After this rather horrible experience in college, did you just go back in the closet to yourself? Gearin Oh, absolutely. Oh, listen. This was—we were about fifty miles from Lawton, and Lawton was a big military town, Army primarily. It was like the Army guys were always up every weekend because this was a women’s college, remember, so it was great for women dating soldiers. I mean, it was a great atmosphere. After that happened, [inaudible] decided, “Okay, I’m going to look real normal on this campus,” (Laughs) because I valued what I was doing there. I really wanted to make sure I got my education. The message was really clear; I mean, we were just—there was no way; everybody on campus knew what had happened. The Dean of Women made it very clear; the president made it very clear that, “Hey, you behave that way and we catch you, you’re gone.” It was like all of us—talk about going into the closet; we were down underneath the ground. We were so buried so 10 �deep. It was—I, at that point, in time decided, “Well, I think I’ll go and explore the other side and see what that’s like.” I really became heterosexual at that particular point in time in my life. It was like, that’s gone. I’m not going to do that again; I buried it. It’s too costly. It’s too much to risk. I don’t want to lose all of these things I wanted. That was kind of the brunt of that, and really it was not bad because I think all of those experiences of dating the military men have helped me in my career with the VA; it’s interesting. Belmonte When did you once again decide this is a part of me that I am not willing to sublimate anymore? Gearin When I was working on my master’s degree—this is kind of a funny story— when I was working on my master’s degree—here I am in San Francisco, which, I mean, the openness of the gay community, even in the ’70s, the early ’70s, was really pretty remarkable. Belmonte Do you recall how you responded to them initially? Gearin Well, I can remember thinking, “Oh, they’re really bold here!” It was like, “Oh my god, are they going to get arrested?” Then I realized that nobody noticed. It was like nobody saw two men walking down the street, holding hands, hugging, kissing; it was like nobody paid any attention. It was a normal part of behavior. My brain started trying to unwind some of all that I had twisted, and it was like, “Okay, if it’s all right to do this, well, now the thoughts come back.” Maybe this is the time where I can start to go back and look at this because I knew that I really was not heterosexual; there was no doubt in my mind. That was not where I wanted to be. I had gone that route just to be normal, and I had engaged myself really, totally in studies. I was a really good student, and I loved school. I really just kind of sublimated all of my sexual energy in just, you know, “Okay, we don’t exist. Let’s just do well in school, study, and have friends.” I did a lot of fun things, traveled a lot, and enjoyed my college—my careers. Remember, this is my third university now. I’m at the University of California, San Francisco, which is actually my third stop. Along the way, I had to take a course with getting a degree in—a master’s in psychiatric nursing. One of the courses that I had to take was human sexuality. In fact, we had several courses that we had to take. I had several clinical hours that I had to do stuff. It was like—I remember the first class, and we were sitting there, talking. There was like twenty of us in the class. The professor came in, and she said, “Okay, these are the things that you will be doing by the end of the term.” We had to [inaudible], we had to— yeah, see the life of prostitutes and all this other sort of stuff. We ended up having to go the sexual history museum there, which was just incredible. I mean, if you’ve never been to San Francisco and been to their museum of 11 �pornography and sexual history, it just—it was incredible. Had to go to a gay bar, had to go to—had to interview people with disabilities that had sexual dysfunctioning because of physical limitations. It was all sorts of things that was included in this course. I became very familiar with SIECUS [Sexuality Information and Education Council of the United States]. I don’t know if you guys are familiar with SIECUS, but that was my first introduction, really, to SIECUS and knowing and understanding that that really existed. Belmonte SIECUS is the nation’s, I think, oldest sex education advocacy organization. Gearin Right. They provided all the film work, and all of the films that we saw in the class were actually done by them. It was like, “Well, you’re turned loose on the city, so here you go.” Belmonte Now, this would have been coexistent with the time that it was tremendous tumult in the psychiatric profession about the removal of homosexuality from the— Gearin It was. It happened actually just two years later. I’m trying to remember what year was that... Belmonte ’74. Gearin Was it ’74? Yeah. This was ’72 when I was there. Belmonte Do you recall what you were being taught about homosexuality and whether or not the professors you had were challenging that? Gearin They were not challenging that, and they were really already talking pretty much as if it wasn’t an abomination; it was not a mental disorder. I can remember that several of the professors, several of the psychiatrists that we came in contact with in our clinical rotations, we had homosexual patients, but they did not really—unless their sexuality was an issue with that particular person, it was not an issue. I mean, if they were depressed, and they happened to be gay, that was not—you know, you didn’t treat them being gay. We didn’t try to change them or anything like this. I had seen some of that when I was in the University of Colorado, where there was some real effort to change. You know, they were doing sex changes in San Francisco, by the way, and I got in on doing some interviews with psychologists and joined through some of the progress—some of the process of what they were doing to see if indeed this person was mentally stable for a sex change operation. They had to go through a huge psychological evaluation before the surgeons—you know, they would really do any kind of procedures and things like this. Being involved in how they 12 �were preparing for those interviews and what kind of information they wanted to get and, you know, all this sort of thing. It was really a pretty fascinating time. Belmonte Definitely. When did you decide to come back to Tulsa? Gearin I had really pretty much decided when I went to graduate school, that after I finished, I really wanted to come home. I had been away for a long time. I knew that the education I had gotten, that nurses here were not getting that. I really wanted to be able to bring some of that back and to perhaps do some changing in education for nursing here in Oklahoma, and the only way you’re going to do that is you have to bring what you learned back. So I did do that. When I interviewed for the job position in Muskogee, I had to, first of all, be approved by the University of Oklahoma. In fact, it was a clinical appointment. Muskogee and the VA would not have been able to have hired me had not the University of Oklahoma approved my. Now, mind you, the irony in all of this is that the University of Oklahoma denied me admission to medical school, but now I’m good enough to teach their students and their residents. I thought that was really kind of a neat irony in my lifetime, that I had come back around, and, you know, that bus does keep coming back around. When I interviewed at the University of Oklahoma and talked with them, they asked me to do a colloquium because they had no idea that nursing education was as broad as [inaudible] and that I could do and that I had the ability to do what I did, which was primarily to be a psychotherapist. I had a huge background in medicine, as well. I had several classes in psychopharmacology, and they were just asking me questions. “Well, what about this drug? What about that drug? What about this diagnosis?” They could not believe the level of the education that I had, so I was the first clinical specialist to come to the state of Oklahoma and practice. I was the first to be asked to do a colloquium for the University of Oklahoma. Went down to Oklahoma City and, you know, did a presentation with—I think it was—it seemed like, to me, it was two hundred of them at that audience because I was a little overwhelmed that everyone there was a physician, but they were all fascinated and wanted to know how I knew what I knew and what kind of education I had gotten. It was really a very rewarding experience to go back and talk with the doctors, and, you know, they really treated me as a peer, which was a real special feeling for me. Belmonte How did you find out about gay life in Tulsa? Gearin It’s kind of interesting. When I got to Muskogee…you’ll laugh at this. This will tell you how I really met my lover of twenty-five years. I was working at the VA, and I had just gotten there from California. This—when I was when I was a nurse, and she worked on one of the units. She was—they 13 �were actually the first unit to call me for a consult. They had a patient there that was giving them some problems, and they felt like maybe I could come in and see the patient. So I came in, all very serious-minded, and I had to wear lab coats at that time, but I couldn’t wear regular clothes. Now, I was a California girl by this time and grew up just after the flower children. I was in the—lived right on Haight-Ashbury, lived right on Ashbury Street, just up from Haight. It was all a lot of flower children, free thinking, and I had had a wonderful, rich life when I lived in San Francisco. One of the things was mini-skirts were really big then, and I had some wonderful mini-skirts and things like this. I was much slimmer, and I’m tall anyway and was very tan. I guess when I came on to the hospital, I had all the doctors just absolutely coming in, married or not married, and it was like, “Oh no, don’t want to go here, don’t want to do this.” When I first came on that unit, Linda saw me, and she was the one that had actually requested the consult. This is a straight woman; she had already been married three times, I think it was. Belmonte Clearly didn’t take. Gearin Cleary. (Laughter) Clearly didn’t take. At any rate she—after I finished the consult, she says, “Why don’t you call me sometime?” Well, I’ve never— when you do that, you have to ask me specifically. I’m so naïve, and up in here, I don’t see things. I had no “gay-dar.” Absolutely none, zero, zip. I still don’t have a whole lot of it, but she had good “gay-dar,” which was good for us in our relationship because that’s really how we made friends. She was able to sense and understand, and after we did get together, we started dating and things like this. We met a couple there in Muskogee, and they told us about a bar here in Tulsa. It was over on Memorial, and “Let’s just go up.” I can remember that we, the four of us, came up one Saturday, drove up from Muskogee and walked into that bar, and I thought, “Oh my god, this is wonderful.” Belmonte What was the name of this bar? Gearin Oh my lord, you would ask me. I know I know it just as well, and everybody will know it…The Club. Just The Club: that was it, The Club. Jody and Muriel did—they were a great couple. We became pretty regular customers. (Laughs) You know, every weekend, we’d come up, and, you know, pretty much every weekend, met a group of women and started socializing. Then I had an opportunity to move up here in ’78 because we were going to open a clinic. We knew by that time that we were going to open a clinic here in Tulsa. I had made some really good friends, a couple of guys that we met— they were really—one of them was really quite closeted. He worked at American Airlines, so that was still, you know, early ’70s, late ’70s, early ’80s. He was not inclined to be too out at that particular time, and so we met 14 �these two guys and we just had a great time. Jan was from Amsterdam, and we just had a—we were just kind of soulmates, the four of us. We always had a really good time in doing things, and so the house next door to them came up for sale. Even though I knew we were going to move up here eventually, I didn’t really anticipate that it would be ’78, but it was ’78 when we bought the house and moved in. A year later, the clinic opened. Seventy-nine is when the clinic in the VA opened, so I no longer had to commute, which was much better, because that was a long commute. Once we moved up here, then things really began to grow and stuff. Linda was always a very social person, I mean, and very talented. She was a singer, so she was always out in clubs and things like this. She never met strangers. We very rapidly developed a good, close network of friends, and actually met Dennis Neill through—who’s involved—founder, really, of TOHR, pretty much. Met him and started doing some socializing through the Black and White group. I don’t know if you’ve—have you heard about the Black and White? Belmonte Tell me what you know about it. Gearin Oh, lord. That was a group of guys that decided they wanted to have fun and have a big party every year, so they would have a black and white party. You wore black and white. I mean, the theme was always black and white. You knew what it was, what it was going to be. I’m trying to think—there was quite a few of them at first. I knew several of them, and the first one we went to was down—the first one that Linda and I went to was on—just off of Riverside, at that club—I can’t think of the name of it—but I do believe that was the very first year they had that. That was at like 19th and Riverside, just right up over Riverside. It was the most wonderful time; we just had a ball. It was just all gay people. I mean, it was just absolutely wonderful to think that there’s this many of us, you know. It grew and grew and grew. I mean, every year, it got bigger and bigger. I think—I’m not sure how many years we did that, but it was quite a few years that they did that. It was the big party of the year. Belmonte Was that the first time you recall being at a place with a large number of gay people in Tulsa? Gearin Yes, so it was really fun. It was a lot of fun. Belmonte One of the things that strikes me was being in Tulsa in 2004, is it’s very easy to tap into networks of guys here, but the women’s community is very different. Yet, every once in a while, you’ll stumble into a party or something, and there are two, three hundred people that you probably will never see again. Do you recall similar experiences earlier? 15 �Gearin You know, it was really difficult to meet a lot of women. Most of the women we met were through The Club, which was predominantly a women’s bar. Yeah, you know, it was like—most of the times we went to events, we would be sometimes the only women, or there might be one other couple. Now, at the Black and White, that was not necessarily true, and gradually, more and more women did come. That first year, there weren’t nearly as many women as there were men, but it’s always kind of been that way; it’s an interesting phenomenon, I think, for here. I think today, it still is, to some of that degree. Lots of times, we’ll go to dinner parties and things like this and be the only women, you know. I know that these gay guys have other gay women friends, but it’s—I don’t know, it’s just kind of a strange situation. Belmonte You’ve mentioned The Club. Do you recall any other lesbian establishments? Gearin That was the major—there were several other bars around, but that really was the one that was best known for the women. It was owned by the women and operated by them, so even though the guys would come in there, it was pretty well known that it was primarily the women’s bar. You could go to some of the other gay bars in town, but lots of times, if you went, there may not be any other women there. It was pretty much the men that were in the other bars. Belmonte Now, were you involved in any sort of sports networks? I know that’s always been a good place for gay women to find one another. Gearin Actually not. I didn’t play sports. I really was a very good softball player, basketball player in college, but somehow, didn’t fall into that—how I really started meeting women outside of the bars was through TOHR. I was just earlier talking with a friend, trying to remember exactly when that was. I believe that I first started getting involved with TOHR about ’84, ’83, ’84…’85. How I really got involved with them—I remember doing by-laws; I can remember all sorts of things. They developed the telephone hotline, and John Dratz, who was an attorney here at that particular point in time, was trying to get it going. I had helped Tulsa, the city of Tulsa, develop the hotline here and train, and so he wanted me to work on the hotline for TOHR. That’s—I’m not sure what year that was that we opened that, but I think it was like ’85, maybe, or ’86. I’m not real sure. That was when the helpline really came into play. We even had it at a bar; we had it at Zipper’s. That’s where we were the very first few times that we took calls. (Laughter) I’d go down to the bar and, you know, walk in and go through the bar and go to the back office, you know. It was just amazing, it was just amazing. Belmonte Zipper’s sounds like it was quite the hub of gay life here for a long time. Do you have any memories of Zipper’s? 16 �Gearin Oh yes. It was really a great place. It was for everybody: you know, lots of dancing, lots of good music. It was really a pretty fun place to go. As I said, when I first was going there, I was working. You know, I was going into the back rooms and answering the phone. It was really was a fun place. Lots of folks would be there. We would always just be real decadent and acting out and doing our thing and thinking, “Oh, I wonder if anybody knows what really goes on behind these walls.” By the way, that would have been a good name for a movie, If These Walls Could Talk. You know, we had lots of fun with that. That was kind of interesting times, fun times. Belmonte You began telling us this story about what happened to Vivienne. Do you recall instances of discrimination and harassment of women you knew or men you knew in Tulsa in this period? Gearin You know, kind of by hearsay, never somebody I really knew closely. I can remember hearing stories of somebody that lost their job or was refused housing, you know, this kind of thing. We were—you know, I think in the early ’80s, we were still careful. I mean, you weren’t just real free with— you were careful with what you did. There were a lot of things that we did in homes, lots of parties and things, dinners. I went to a lot of events that were in people’s homes. A lot of that I think was because of safety issues; it was more that we felt like we were—you know, could be safe and not have to worry about walking out to our car and having the police follow you. I can remember tales where some women and guys would have left the club and been stopped by the police and harassed because they knew. The police knew that it was gay bars. They knew, you know, they knew where they were. We weren’t fooling anybody; they know where we were. I never personally was involved in it, and none of my really good friends were ever a part of that, but I did hear about it. I knew a couple of times there were some beatings. Some of the guys got beat up, but they were never people that I really knew. I may have known of them, but I didn’t know them really personally, know them well. I was pretty fortunate in that aspect. Belmonte Tell me about what you remember about AIDS reaching Tulsa? Gearin That was horrible. I had several really good friends that died in the mid ’80s and in the late ‘80s. I started having veterans come in at work, as well, and it was probably the worst time of my life: to have people that you know and love and you care about, and to watch them just very rapidly deteriorate and die. They didn’t live; they died. It changed my whole approach to life because I realized how precious it truly is. We don’t, any of us, have the luxury of knowing, but those guys had the misfortune of knowing that they weren’t going to live very long once they received their diagnosis. Most of them had been positive, probably, for quite some time, but we didn’t really 17 �know and understand the diseases nearly as well as we do now. Those times were really difficult, and I felt compelled to do something to help, not just professionally but also within the community because we were losing a lot of gay men. How follies was born, and I was a part of that. TOHR had been real active with that. This was 1988. I’ll never forget this. How I know this is I’m an OU fan; I love basketball. The University of Oklahoma was in the final four in 1988. They played the University of Kansas, in fact, in the championship game and lost. We were at follies, which TOHR produced as a fundraiser every year, and my lover and Ellis Wagoner, who at that time worked with the Tulsa Tribune—there were two papers at that time—he was the entertainment editor, and he was gay, and his lover was there. We were there—the four of us were there, and Linda and Ellis get off on this tangent, and they’re talking about, “You know what? We could put on a musical variety show and raise a hell of a lot of money,” because there were like, maybe a couple of hundred there. “We could really do this big; we could really do this.” We know all of the musicians; we knew—they knew talent. They started plotting all of this out. That was actually the birth of follies review, which for ten years did a musical variety show annually, and all the money that we made from that, outside of our expenses, we turned over to the community to agencies such as Tulsa Cares, RAIN, you know, anybody that was taking care of—St. Joseph’s. We gave money to anybody that was providing any kind of health care or any kind of benefits to people with AIDS. That was the birth of that, and that was through—and TOHR actually sponsored us our first two years. We did the first musical variety show in 1989 downtown at the PAC, the Performing Arts Center. We had the small stage—one of the small stages, John Williams, and we ran these people across and did music—it was a musical variety show. Had it for three nights, and that was 1989. Did it again in ’90 with TOHR, and then decided in ’93 we’d incorporate it and just decided to do it all on our own. The next eight years, we just did it all as our own…our own source, our own wings, [inaudible]. We gave away almost 300,000 dollars in ten years. We raised quite a bit of money and gave it to these little grass-roots organizations. I was very actively involved on several boards with Shanti. I was on their first board of directors. I did group therapy with AIDS patients, and the community helped establish some of those groups. I was just as—I mean, really there was days during the week that I would leave work and go do some of this stuff, and it was like, almost a twenty-four hour kind of thing. I was just very actively involved in doing everything that I could. Did so for about ten years and gradually kind of started to burn out with some of them because you just don’t have the energy. Buried a lot of friends during those years; that was an awful time. Tremendous losses, you know, you had such a 18 �wonderful, talented group of people, and they’re no longer here. It’s really too bad because they were in the primes of their lives. They would’ve, you know, had AIDS not come around, been there, been here. Belmonte It sounds to me like Tulsa was actually pretty bold in responding to AIDS in the early stages. Gearin Very. We got very well organized through the Community Service Council, which was a United Way foundation group. Janice Nicolas and Joan Flint were kind of the spearhead of that, and they started getting the community together. All the organizations that were doing anything, we all started networking and we would meet down there once a month, and we would do planning. We would look at, “What are we having problems with? What do we need?” but there were several organizations that—respectable, you know, straight organizations—that were involved. It still offered, I think, for all of us, a little bit of a hope that not everybody is discriminatory, not everybody is going to dismiss us, that, you know, we are real people, we do have something to contribute. It was through those efforts of those women and some of the other—like the Visiting Nurse Association, our affiliation there—it was, really it was a wonderful time of networking and doing liaison work and growing and developing and, you know, meeting people and trying to see that we had a real need here, and we had a real void, and what could we do to plug in. It was a great time. It was a busy time, a hugely busy time, but very successful, as well. We had an infectious disease physician, who was very well-known in the community, Dr. Jeff Beale and his lover, Ted Campbell, and they were spearheading all the medical parts of it. They helped, you know. Everybody was involved; everybody was doing things. If you weren’t doing things, you at least went to some of the events and gave your money, you know, like follies or some of the other things. I can remember ice cream—there was always something going on. Interfaith AIDS Network was also around then, and they were an even—really smaller group. It was the Quakers and some of those folks, and they were involved, and they were doing ice cream socials and street fairs, and you know, everybody was trying to turn a dime. I mean, we were all trying to get money because we were wanting these organizations to help these young men. Trying to provide them buddies, trying to provide them support groups…we felt they were just hugely necessary. Catholic charities had St. Joe’s house, which was taking care of those that, once they became so debilitated, families couldn’t take care of them, and we could—you know, or they were abandoned. We could put them in there, and we could help take care of them. It was a time when everybody kind of bonded and pulled together. I think the gay community really started to see that they could have some support with the straight community. I mean, it 19 �was like—there were some real inroads made during that time. The AIDS crisis did a lot for other things, too. It wasn’t just the bad things; there were also some really very good things, very positive things that came out of that. This is just an incidental we’ll add in here. (Laughter) We’re going to backtrack a little. There were a lot of really funny things that happened when Linda and I used to go to The Club. They had a woman that was all into her; her name was Suki. Suki would always kind of monitor if we came in and came out and stuff like this. Jody usually was working behind the bar. Mary would sometimes, as well, and they would kind of circulate. They were the owners of the bar. One night, Linda and I were there, and it was a big crowd. I can’t remember exactly what happened to start it all off, but as I recall, I think a guy got pretty drunk and started getting pretty disorderly. Jody came flying across the bar, (Laughs) nailed a guy, pushed him up to the wall, and was holding him. Well, everybody is jumping up, and it’s like— everybody is now going to—when you know that something is happening, like a fight or something like this—it was the closest I ever came to being in a fight. It was like, everybody just wanted to, just gravitate. I’m up and out of the table, and the only thing I was really going to do was just to try and prevent other people from getting involved because Jody really had the situation under control, and the guy wasn’t really trying to fight her once he realized what was going on. I don’t think he ever expected that Jody was going to do that. None of us really did, but anyway, I was just trying to keep people back and keep them away. When I went back to the table, Linda is sitting there, looking at me, and she says, “My god,” she says, “I thought you were going to get in a fight!” (Laughter) I said, “Fight? No, I wasn’t going to fight. I was just trying to make sure that Jody didn’t get into trouble because all the other people trying to climb in top of him and get involved,” because back then, some of those women would have really just loved to have gotten involved. I was like, “Okay guys, Jody’s handling it. Just, you know, let’s let her.” I mean, they really would have liked to have handled it because there was a lot of role changes there. A lot of that was going on, that was when I was coming out with all of this. Women that were the butch and the ones that were the femmes. Belmonte So this was even in the ’80s that was still entrenched here. Gearin Actually, yes. That would have been the early ’80s. Probably because Tulsa is still behind, you’ve got to remember. (Laughter) Everything gravitates from the coasts, you know, either the West Coast or the East Coast. It takes it a while to get to the middle part of the country. Belmonte Janet, you were describing a few minutes ago a rather volatile situation at a bar in Tulsa and alluded to… 20 �Gearin Yes. Very exciting. Belmonte …the existence of kind of defined butch/femme roles in the Tulsa lesbian community. This is interesting, given that this was the early ’80s. Tell me a little bit more about that. Was that common among the couples that you knew? Gearin Oh, absolutely. When you went to the bar, it was—a lot of times, it was very much—you knew who was butch, and you knew who was femme—couples, you knew who were couples. I can remember Linda and I laughing and saying, “Do we look like them?” I never did see myself as one way or the other, but it was like when you went to the bar, it was really—it had to be kind of clarified as to who was who. You know, I would have people say, “Well, is that your wife?” and these kinds of things. I’m going, “Linda [inaudible] ever going to be my wife?” (Laughs) you know, because I had never—we didn’t know. We really were both pretty green with all of this because I didn’t have a whole lot of experience, and she had absolutely none. It was kind of fun because we didn’t really know how we were to behave, or if we had to assume a certain role, or not assume a certain role, or how we were to interact with these women. Over a period of time, you just kind of—you don’t even look at it, you don’t even see it, but I can remember the first few times going into the bar and seeing women who really looked more like men than they did women and thinking, “Wow, this is kind of interesting,” and wondering, “Should I—do I need to do that?” You know, this sort of thing. “Or are they just going to think we’re both femmes? What are we going to both be?” Struggling with some of that and not really knowing, having no [inaudible] what a lot of these women had gone through, it was kind of interesting to learn that they were very much that way all the time. They were that way in their jobs. I can remember my brother worked with Telex—one of my brothers—and there were several of the women that worked at Telex. They worked on those boards; you know, they did the computer things like that, and he knew them. He knew these women. He knew that they were lesbians, so at that particular time—we’ve since talked about all of this, I’ve asked him about it in terms of—retrospectively. It was kind of interesting at that time that they really dressed that way, they looked that way, and they had their wives, they had their girlfriends, whatever. You were real careful. I did see some fights. It was a whole new world to me to see women fighting, you know, across the lines and things like this. “Oh no, that’s my woman. That’s my wife. Leave her alone.” It was an interesting time at the bar. 21 �Belmonte Sure. That’s fascinating because this is something other parts of the country have been documented as disappearing. It’s starting to disappear in the ’70s. Gearin We probably, as I said, weren’t there. We probably weren’t there because we’ve always been a little bit behind. Belmonte You mentioned that you started to get a little burnt out with the AIDS activism. Gearin More burnt out, not so much with the activism, but with the follies. That was a ten-year, a year-round job for us. Rehearsals were in my house. (Laughter) All this sort of stuff, you can’t imagine. We made props in my house, and you’ve seen the house on [inaudible], so thank god it was as big as it was. We’ve had rehearsals out in the backyard by the pool, in the yard, dance lessons—I mean, the whole nine yards. It was a rigorous undertaking because it took a big part of the year to plan it. You had to know what you were going to do in terms of music. You had to get the music. Then we would have auditions and get entertainers and people across the city to help us backstage because we had to have a lot of help backstage. It was really a huge, huge undertaking. We did this on a shoestring budget. We would just leave ourselves enough money at the end of the previous show—we would just leave enough money in our budget to get started again the next year. We were always on a shoestring, but I knew it was always going to come through. I wore lots of hats: I sold advertisements, walked into businesses in the city and tried to sell ads, sold tickets. We did what we had to do. It was like ten of us that were on the board; we were a working board, and we worked very hard. It was a year-round thing. Belmonte Why was follies disbanded? Gearin Primarily because we just burned out with it. After ten years, we did ten years, and it was just too much. We were extremely successful; it was a very—by the time we quit, we were really doing quite well financially with it because we were making a lot of money. We had a patron chair; we started doing that early on. Bob Caesar was one of our board of members, and Bob was very—he’s an interior designer like Charles Faudree—and he was very—knew a lot of people. When we first were getting started with this, we wanted to try and get into the community—the straight community, if you will, because the gay community was getting pumped out, I mean, money-wise. They were supporting all of the AIDS things going on. We really felt like Tulsa, as a whole, needed to know about it, and they also needed to contribute. We needed the money; we needed their support. There came a period in time while follies was doing this, and I believe it was like around ’92, ’93, ’94, about those three years, that AIDS and HIV 22 �became a real popular bandwagon for you to contribute to if you were in the straight world. We took a real big hook and advantage of that. Part of that was Bob helped us to get chairmen—our patron chair, who would lend their name to the event and give us their guest list. We had huge numbers of people that we got involved and bought tickets and came to the show that were straight. We brought in a lot of money that wasn’t being tapped into, and that was really a good thing. That was a really good thing. During the course of the show, I would always give some interesting statistics. I was the announcer. I never was on stage. I was always backstairs, behind the scenes, with the camera off the stage area. You just heard my voice, and I always was the one that would announce the acts and introduce them and do all of these neat little things. I would develop some kind of dialogue so that I would give some information and history during the course of the show about what was going on in Tulsa and nationwide and worldwide. Belmonte Are there any tapes of any of these shows? Gearin I may have some of them still around. I’m not sure if I do or not. I’ll look in the archives and see. Belmonte It would be wonderful to have some of those, copies of some of those. Do you recall, in conjunction with the work you did with AIDS, getting opposition from the community in Tulsa? Gearin Yes, I got a lot of doors slammed in my face when I would go and want to try and sell ads or something like this. People, “Oh no, I’m not supporting that. Those men deserve what they got.” That sort of thing, I got it a few times. Not too much, but I did get it from a few businesses and things like that when I would try to sell advertising. When you have somebody that’s very well-known in this community, and very powerful, and very rich, and very wealthy, and they’re behind your show; they’re your chairperson, that’s pretty hard to say no to. I found that I would make it clear who was our sponsoring chair and what was going to be our patrons. Once they found out that, then I opened a lot more doors and was really helpful to us in getting incredible amounts of help from printing at the program. We got our program usually printed free, Judy Rogers’ lithograph. We had Kery Walsh, who was our designer for that. He still probably is very active in the community. Kery was wonderful to do all of our graphic work for our program and our layout, and we had several—we had two board members that primarily just did nothing but work on our program and our posters. We had some very well-known artists do posters for us: P.S. Gordon, for one. We just had an overall response that just helped bring in more and more people and get more and more involved. As I said, when you have patrons that have a name for themselves, then you have a little bit more 23 �legitimacy. That helped us. It opened doors. It did open doors for us. It was just a matter of like, after ten years, you just got [inaudible] about it. Belmonte Right. So the last year of follies was… Gearin ’98. Belmonte Oh, so not that long ago. Gearin We did the first one in ’89 and did the last one in ’98. Belmonte How do you think the gay community in Tulsa has changed from the time you’re describing, the years of the club, and now? You’ve recently made the decision to be part of TOHR again. Gearin Back—I was an active member for, I guess, about four years, five years. Then to come back after all this time…. I missed kind of some of the old things, to be quite honest. It’s interesting. I know—like with TOHR, when I first was going there and was really actively involved, we had huge meetings. I mean, we might have a couple hundred people come to a meeting. It was lots of folks; that’s what they were involved in. I miss kind of that. I miss the [inaudible] of getting up, conducting the meeting, all the things that go with that. The little subcommittees that, you know—I did bylaws one year, and I’ll never do that again; that was a terrible job for TOHR. I do miss some of those older things that we had because it was really nice. Now, it’s pretty much just the board and not so much the whole community as a whole that’s involved. That was nice. That was a nice thing to do. It was a great time. Belmonte I hope we can get that back. Gearin That would be nice. I really think it would be nice. It was very much needed back then, and I suspect it still is probably very much needed, that people do need to be out. I think the difference—in terms of following along with that—the difference is that, I think, I now go out more to people’s homes, even more so than I did back then. Years ago, I was out to the bars and things like this quite a bit, doing things, but now, it’s like you have small dinners with friends, maybe there’s ten of you and maybe there’s eight of you. It’s not quite so many large functions that I go to. I still know people that I met in the late ’70s, the early’80s, and they’re still good friends and we still socialize and things like this. I kind of—this is one reason why I wanted to get back with TOHR, was to get back with the [inaudible], see how much change has there been? Sometimes when you’re in a relationship, you don’t always see things and do things. When I was in follies, that was year-round. Even though the gay community was very much involved in all of that, it was also the straight community, as well. It was like working both 24 �of them because there were people on the board that were gay, but there were people on our board that were straight. I was not doing a lot of the other social things that I was doing when I first got to Tulsa. I was getting my social needs met differently, I guess you would say. It was more smallerscale in terms of homes and things like this. Belmonte Politically, Oklahoma obviously has a lot of work to do on gay rights issues. What’s your sense as a long-term Tulsa resident? Gearin I’ve always thought that there’s a certain part of Tulsa that’s going to be the redneck part, probably no matter what. You’re going to meet people that have bias; they’re probably not going to change their minds. I worry less about changing people’s minds directly; I’ve always been somebody, who, if I can lead them there and they don’t know I’ve led them there, or I can push them there—and I’ve done this for patients. That’s, I think, why I’m successful as a therapist is, I let the patients talk their way through things. Eventually, I give them little guidance here and there, and eventually they come around to where I feel they need to be to be healthier. They would agree with that, I’m sure. It’s the same thing in terms of the gay community. It’s like, you know, sometimes we beat that wall and we don’t really need to be beating it. If we just let life go, people come around. They realize that this is a democracy. This is, you know—we all want to just be treated equally, and that “Oh my gosh, did you know that your brother’s gay?” You find out that you know somebody gay. Back then, we didn’t find out that because we kept it more of a secret. Now, I think you see that people do know somebody that’s gay or they know of somebody that’s gay, and it’s like “Okay. Well, they’re a nice guy,” or “They’re a nice lady, it’s okay.” I think as we’re out, and that’s the beauty, I guess, of being out, is that people will see and understand us and know us for the people that we are. Eventually, our sexuality is not going to be a big issue in that. We’re all going to get there; it’s just a matter of time. It’s a process that we all have to kind of go through. I think that’s kind of where we’re headed. I think that’s a positive thing. Being a little bit of along the conservative and an old hat, some of the new things that were going on, like with the gay marriages, and I’m sitting there going, “Am I appalled or not? How do I feel about this?” (Laughter) It’s like, “Parts of that scare me and parts of it not scare me, but parts of that bother me in a sense that—oh, I guess I get the people with honey, not put it in their face.” There’s a little bit—it’s a fine line. Sometimes I really have to put it in people’s face, but then I don’t know if I want to be the one that does it. It’s like, “Okay, I’ll just sit back and watch it, see what’s going to happen.” I don’t know that I could honestly be on the front part with some of that, either. I would probably be more inclined to be—unlike Vivienne. Vivienne’s probably out there leading all of this. I’m sure she’s probably 25 �been on the steps of San Francisco. I’m not really quite that way. I’m kind of more of a behind the person, but I’m not going to lie to you, either. If people ask, I generally will tell them. I’m not going to try and hide that. I’m one of those that doesn’t talk about it a lot, it just is. As you get to know me, you probably know that, or you’ll sense that, but we’ll talk about everything, talk about me as a person, as a human, that comes first. Belmonte I think we’re going to end on that note. Davis Well, I have one thing I was going to throw out to see. You remember the VA. What was the impact of the “Don’t ask, don’t tell” in that community? Belmonte That’s an excellent question. Gearin The military guys—it’s really—I’m in mental health, so everyone I work with personally is very progressive. You’ve got to understand that they’re not going to be the ones that think that. We’ve been working in therapy with people who have been gay for years, so it’s not an issue. I think for other people, we all kind of laugh at it. It’s like, you’ve got to be kidding. That was the dumbest—I still think that was such a huge error in judgement to even have that as part of the military. Gays have always been in the military. They got by; they did well. They weren’t out, for the most part, although I think, again, a lot of people probably knew that they were gay, but they didn’t flaunt it, so they left them alone, and they didn’t—they just managed to make it. I’ve had too many men that were very actively gay when they were in the military, but they were also discrete, too. It’s a line of—you have to be real careful with it because there are some serious repercussions; you get booted out. If you get a dishonorable discharge, that’s a terrible thing. I think most of the guys would probably like to just see it not be there at all. It’s almost like it was an embarrassment to have it. It probably caused more bad than it helped. That’s usually perception of the military men that I’ve talked with. I have a lot of straight guys that talked—they knew they were fighting next to a gay guy, but they couldn’t care less. In Vietnam or Desert Storm or wherever, if they were able to fire at the enemy and protect his backside, I guarantee you they didn’t care that he was homosexual. They cared that he was a good soldier because that’s really why they were there, was to be a good soldier. I guess overall, it was—I think it was—probably most of us would probably say it was a bad thing. Again, I think it was a bad thing because originally, Clinton wanted to get rid of it altogether. When he realized he wasn’t going to be able to do that because he didn’t have the power to do it, then they changed it. To be quite honest, I think it probably would have been better off just to have left it as it was. I’ve always felt that that was—I think probably 26 �most of the people that worked with the VA or veterans probably feel the same way. I think we’re already doing “Don’t ask, don’t tell.” I mean, when you really think about it, isn’t that kind of what we’ve been doing all along, to some degree in various ways? It’s always “Don’t ask, don’t tell.” I’ve had people ask me over the years, “Well, how did your brothers find out? What if somebody asked you?” I’m going to tell them. I figure if they ask me, then they’re wanting to know, otherwise they wouldn’t ask me. I want to tell them if they ask me. If they don’t ask me, I may not necessarily volunteer; it just depends. Depend on how comfortable I am. Belmonte Janet, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us this afternoon. Gearin You’re welcome. I’ve enjoyed it, thank you very much. Belmonte This completes our interview. ------- End of interview ------- Addendum – Janet added this additional information in March 2026: Janet finished her career with the VA in January 2013. This is a brief synopsis of her career highlights with special emphasis on her carryover of her HIV work within the VA system. “I am not sure of the date, but I was invited to attend a 1-day VA Conference in Dallas Texas. That conference basically brought me into the HIV approach about treatment and education of VA personnel across the country. Since my area of practice within the VA was in Mental Health, I was a bit confused as to why I was invited. The conference was led by Dr Bopper Deyton from the VA Central Office. At the end of the 1 day event I was asked to attend a more detailed 3-day training in Baltimore. It was at that training event that I had been selected to be one of an HIV Consortium that would work across the country to other VA Hospitals to train medical and nursing staff on the care and treatment of persons with HIV/AIDS that presented to the VA for care. It was to be one of the most gratifying and rewarding experiences of my career. As an aside note I was sent to Chicago for an HIV National convention. Dr Deyton met me at the Conference Center and sent me to sit beside his friend and mentor. I was stunned when during our introduction to each other he noted he was Dr. Anthony Fauci. It would be the first of several HIV meetings/Conferences that we would meet. 27 �As a “by the way” I learned that Dr Deyton learned of me through a mutual friend…. Dr Jeff Beal! 28 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2004] Janet Gearin Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 22, 2004 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on February 22, 2004. Born in Vinita, Oklahoma on February 3, 1947, Janet lived in Duncan, Oklahoma and graduated High School in Lindsey, Oklahoma. She attended University of Oklahoma College of Liberal Arts (previously Oklahoma College for Women) in Chickasha, Oklahoma. She attended the University of Colorado and received a master’s in clinical psychiatric nursing from the University of California, San Francisco. With aging parents, she returned to Oklahoma and practiced with the 9 Department of Veteran Affairs in Muskogee and then in Tulsa. Janet entered into a 25- year relationship with a fellow VA nurse, Linda Stevens. In the 1980’s, both got involved with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR), the predecessor to Oklahomans for Equality. Janet helped with the TOHR helpline and became a key volunteer in TOHR’s HIV/AIDS outreach and testing. In 1989, Linda, Janet and others revamped TOHR’s annual Follies Review (dance and song stage show) for HIV/AIDS programming support. The Follies Review was presented annually through 2008. She also served as a counselor and advisor to Shanti, an AIDS support program started in Tulsa in 1986, and served on the TOHR board. Subject The topic of the resource Janet Gearin Oral History Project Interview from February 22, 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Janet Gearin, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2004 AIDS Support Program AIDS testing AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV testing Department of Veteran Affairs follies HIV testing HIV/AIDs HIV/AIDs outreach HIV/AIDs testing hotline interview Janet Gearin Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Linda Stevens OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma College for Women oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Shanti Shanti Project TOHR TOHR Board of Directors Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Board of Directors Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights HIV Testing University of California University of California San Francisco University of Colorado University of Oklahoma College of Liberal Arts video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/80a666c71fa7d00ebe6c35e6c3cd5029.mp4 a529e7f8f4fac75bb63c5db6e403adfb https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/1fb8011913addc5505031ad0b07566bc.pdf a0af57e73d112460472ed6b6c2955e74 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Gordon George Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: February 3, 2026 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video February 8, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Gordon George Keywords Gordon George, LGBTQ history, Tulsa, community, coming out, AIDS crisis, activism, volunteer work, identity, equality Takeaways ● Gordon George shares his early life in Oswego, Kansas. ● He discusses the challenges of fitting in during school. ● Moving to Tulsa was a pivotal moment for Gordon's identity. ● He recalls his first experiences in the gay community. ● Gordon's involvement in LGBTQ activism began in the 80s. ● He faced challenges during the AIDS crisis and supported affected friends. ● Coming out to his family was a significant turning point. ● Gordon reflects on the changes in the LGBTQ community over the years. ● He emphasizes the importance of volunteering and community support. ● Gordon encourages future generations to appreciate and protect their rights. 2 �Summary In this conversation, Gordon George shares his life story, detailing his experiences growing up in Kansas, moving to Tulsa, and discovering his identity as a gay man. He reflects on the challenges he faced in school, his involvement in the LGBTQ community, and the impact of the AIDS crisis. Gordon discusses his journey of coming out to his family, the importance of volunteering, and the progress of LGBTQ rights over the years. He emphasizes the need for continued activism and support for future generations. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Early Life 03:04 School Experiences and Identity 05:55 Moving to Tulsa and Discovering Community 09:05 Exploring Sexuality and Relationships 11:59 Involvement in the LGBTQ Community 14:59 Challenges and Triumphs in the 80s 18:08 Family Dynamics and Coming Out 20:59 AIDS Crisis and Community Support 24:03 Volunteering and Activism 27:05 Reflections on Change and Progress 30:00 Current Involvement and Future Outlook Gordon George Oral History Interview February 3, 2026 Toby Jenkins: This is February the 3rd on Tuesday in 2026, and we're here in the Nancy and Joe Rainbow Library at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. And today, we are interviewing Gordon George. And Gordon, can you tell us your name and your date of birth? Gordon George: Gordon George, 10-5-53. Toby Jenkins: Okay, very good. And where were you born? Gordon George: Oswego, Kansas. Toby Jenkins: Oswego, Kansas. And about where is that located? Gordon George: Southeast Kansas. Toby Jenkins: Southeast Kansas, so not far from the Oklahoma line? Gordon George: Right. 3 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And is that a little town, big town? Gordon George: Little. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: They don't even have a hospital anymore. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Do they still have a full high school and all of that? Gordon George: As far as I know, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. So you were born there and is that where your parents are from? Gordon George: They're from Southeast Kansas, yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And what was your dad's name and what is your mom's name? Gordon George: Freddy was my dad. My mother was Stella. Toby Jenkins: Stella? And are they still living? Gordon George: My dad's still kicking, 92. Toby Jenkins: 92 years old. Gordon George: And mother's been gone 23 years. Toby Jenkins: Okay. What was their careers? What did they do forGordon George: My dad was a teamster. Toby Jenkins: Oh. Gordon George: And mother was a homemaker and then she went into tax preparation. Did that for many years. Toby Jenkins: And how many siblings? Do you have siblings? Gordon George: I have one brother and a sister. I was the middle child. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Are they both still with us? Gordon George: No. My brother died twelve years ago, I think. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And my sister's still with us. She lives near Kansas City. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Were you ever married? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: So you don't have any children that you know of? 4 �Gordon George: No. I know there's no children. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Very good. All right. So your father's still living. Where did you go to school? Gordon George: Independence, Kansas. Toby Jenkins: And so did your family move to Independence, Kansas, or? Gordon George: Yes. We moved to Coffeyville when I was very young. And we moved to Independence when I was in the third grade. Toby Jenkins: And what was Independence like? Gordon George: Horrible. Toby Jenkins: The school you mean or just the city? Gordon George: It was a clicky town. Very clickish. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And I have no desire to go back other than to see my dad. Toby Jenkins: So no warm feelings, or? Gordon George: Oh, no, no, no. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And you moved there in the third grade, was it difficult? New kid in that school. Did you not feel welcome, or? Gordon George: Oh, in grade school, it wasn't so bad. It's junior high and high school is when it got rough. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: Because I didn't feel I fit in. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Because you weren't from Independence and you all had moved there or because of your religion or your ethnicity or because youGordon George: We lived south of Main Street. We didn't live on the good side of town. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And people looked at that, where you live. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: So I just- it's still that way. That town's still that way. Toby Jenkins: Still very clickish and segregated according to class. Gordon George: Yes. 5 �Toby Jenkins: And according to a person's- how much money they make. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Because people's descriptions of small towns are that they're wonderful and welcoming and everybody's so close and looks after each other. But that wasn't your experience. Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Where did you go to high school? Gordon George: Independence. Toby Jenkins: And what year did you graduate? Gordon George: '71. Toby Jenkins: 1971. Okay. And did you go on to technical school? Were you in the military? Gordon George: I attended junior college. I didn't graduate. And I moved to Oklahoma in '79. Toby Jenkins: '79? Now, where did you go to junior college? Gordon George: Independence. Toby Jenkins: Independence. Oh, there's a junior school and college there? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And then I came- when I moved here, I went to Tulsa Junior College here for a couple courses. I did some- I got my real estate license with Tulsa Tech here in Tulsa, so. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been in '79 when you moved to Tulsa? Gordon George: Yes, I think so. Toby Jenkins: So how did you decide to move to Tulsa? Gordon George: To get out of that. Toby Jenkins: To get out of Independence? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Right. So you went to high school there. I mean did you have a job there in Independence for a while? Gordon George: I worked for Southwestern Bell. 6 �Toby Jenkins: Okay. Is that what brought you to Tulsa? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: You were able to transfer? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay, perfect. And what was that like in the 1970s? Working with- what did you do with Southwest Bell? Gordon George: I was actually- when I started, I started as a cord board operator. The Lily Tomlin. Toby Jenkins: Really? Gordon George: Yeah. Actually doing the cords into the switchboard. Toby Jenkins: So if I had called there in the 70s, you would have answered and you would have transferred my call or you would have made a long distance call or did you do information? What was yourGordon George: All of it. Toby Jenkins: All of it. Gordon George: Okay. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And I came to Oklahoma and went into information from there and then went into sales at the phone store. Toby Jenkins: How neat. Mall Bell. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So that's what brought you to Tulsa. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Now, since you were never married, what pronoun do you use? How do you identify your gender? Gordon George: I'm a gay male. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you identify as a gay man. Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember- we've talked about how you weren't happy in Independence and that you felt some isolation. Did you have an awareness that you were gay or that you had same-sex attraction? 7 �Gordon George: Oh yeah. Starting back in junior high school. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you began to have those feelings and you knew what that was. Okay. And did you have resources? I mean did you go to the library and look in a book or did you just kind of knew what that meant? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever feel any kind of awareness that there were other people in your school who were like you? Gordon George: One. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Did you ever feel like some of your unhappiness in junior high and high school had to do with- did anybody bully you or make you feel like you were different? Gordon George: Oh, I was bullied, yes. Particularly one gentleman or one kid. I don't know if- why he targeted me. But paybacks are hell. He died young. Toby Jenkins: Oh, mercy. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So you don't really, you don't feel like you were bullied in high school because they perceived you were different, or? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you said that you were in junior high when you had these feelings. When you moved to Tulsa with Southwestern Bell, I still- I just think that's fascinating that you were- you used the Lily Tomlin one ringy dingy to the switchboard operator. Which- I'm just out of curiosity, I don't know that I ever called information and ever got a male voice. Did you ever hear anybody be surprised that it was a male sounding voice that answered the line or? Gordon George: Not so much because we had a female that sounded like a guy. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So there was two of us. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And of course my voice was a little high. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So. 8 �Toby Jenkins: Fascinating. So you had came to Tulsa. You were an adult, young adult. Did you realize you were gay? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: And were ready to act upon it and? Gordon George: Yeah, first time in a gay bar when I came to Oklahoma. Toby Jenkins: And do you remember what year that would have been? Gordon George: 80. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And do you remember what the bar was, the club? Gordon George: Tim's Playroom. Toby Jenkins: Tim's Playroom. Okay. And how did you find out about Tim's Playroom? Gordon George: A co-worker invited me to go. Toby Jenkins: So you had a gay co-worker? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And he invited me to go with him, and we went to the bar. First time I was in a bar. Toby Jenkins: And what was your thoughts that first experience of being in a space where there were other people like you? And it was that nobody could look into it. The windows were covered overGordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: - and you could beGordon George: And it was a drag show that day, too. Toby Jenkins: Oh, was it? That's the first time you'd ever? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Yeah? Do you remember your feelings that day, or? Gordon George: I was nervous as hell. Toby Jenkins: Really? Gordon George: Yeah. 'Cause I didn't know what to expect. I just really didn't know what going to a gay bar was gonna entail. I had no idea, so. Toby Jenkins: Now, had you had an intimate relationship prior to going to the gay bar? I mean, had you had an intimate9 �Gordon George: ... back in junior high. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: Same one, over and over. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So that was when you explored your sexuality? Gordon George: He brought me out, yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so you knew from junior high on that you were attracted to your same sex? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: So when you moved to Tulsa, you had this co-worker. Did you begin to explore other relationships with gay men? Gordon George: Yes, but not with my co-worker. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you went to Tim's playroom. Did that become kind of something you did on a regular basis? Went to gay bars andGordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Most weekends. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Because at work, you couldn't be out, right? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: I mean, that was a ... . Gordon George: Well, it wasn't so much. I think people perceived that if you worked as an operator, that maybe you were gay, as a perception. But I wasn't out. I wasn't open about it. Toby Jenkins: What was the community like, that you found in the clubs and the bars? Gordon George: More accepting than I thought it would be. Toby Jenkins: So you're just a boy from KansasGordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: - Land in the big city. And what was Tulsa like in those days? Gordon George: Other than the bars, I didn't do much, 'cause of the hours that I worked with Bill. 'Cause there's times that I worked nights and late evenings. Go in at six o'clock and get off at midnight. Or go in at 06:00 and stay till 02:00, it just depends. 10 �Gordon George: So it kinda- and there was more one-on-one in those days with your customers online, or on the phone than there is today. Because they had to physically ask for addresses and stuff like that if we could even give it out. And more interaction with the publicToby Jenkins: Oh, yeah. Gordon George: - Than there is today. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, you called information for everything. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: There were even songs about information. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you had went to Tim's playroom, and that's how you first connected with the gay community in Tulsa? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. It's the early 80s, late 70s in Tulsa. Did you go to any theater programs, any sports events? And just a part of the culture in Tulsa thatGordon George: Yeah. We'd do public events, like when they had ice skating at the downtown. We'd go to the Nutcracker during the holidays on ice. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Gordon George: Go do that kinda thing and let it out. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Tulsa had a downtown mall in those daysGordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: - Built around, I think it's called the Galleria, wasn't it? Dennis Neill: Forum. Toby Jenkins: Forum, called the Forum. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Galleria was in Dallas. So you would do things like that, social events. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Now, when you went to this club, did you meet some other guys, and they kinda became your posse, or your clique of friends, or? Gordon George: No, it was more introduction through the co-worker. Because he had been out for many years. 11 �Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And he introduced me to some of his friends. We'd become a circle of friends that would do things, mainly go to the bars. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Do you remember some of the other clubs that you might've went to? You keep saying the bars. Gordon George: Zippers. Toby Jenkins: Went to Zippers, okay. And what was Zippers? Gordon George: It was a high-energy bar. Toby Jenkins: Like a disco? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And of course, The Bamboo. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Yeah, whichGordon George: That was a trash bar. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, but it had been there forever. Yeah, it's one of the oldest. And it was in the north part of Tulsa. The Zippers was Midtown, like 31st and Yale. Gordon George: Yale. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So were there any- through the clubs, were you aware of any things like gay softball leagues, gay churches? Gordon George: Gay churches. I attended Metropolitan Community for a while. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And where was it located? Gordon George: North Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So I know that they also had a congregation in Jenks at one time, but you went to the north Tulsa location on Queen. It was on Queen. Gordon George: I couldn't tell you. Toby Jenkins: And- so you were connected to that. What about any of the gay softball programs, or what about pride picnics? Gordon George: I had- I- when they had it at Mohawk Park, I drove through it once. I thought, no, I can't do this. Toby Jenkins: And why was that? Gordon George: The crowd, and I just didn't feel comfortable. 12 �Toby Jenkins: Was it because of visibility, or just the large crowd? Gordon George: More the large crowd. Toby Jenkins: Okay, yeah. So that was the- that would've been the early 80s, and you were still with Southwest Bell. Were you staying in contact with your family? I mean, it's pretty common for gay men, lesbian women to move from small towns to bigger cities, where there can be some distance between their families in those days because they didn't wanna embarrass their families, or they wanted their life- their adult life to be private. Were you still in contact with your parents and independents? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: It didn't change. I mean, I didn't come out to my family until '85, '86. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and what was that like? Gordon George: It was in a fit of rage. Toby Jenkins: Okay, tell us a little bit about that. Gordon George: I had been to- I was living in Oklahoma City at the time. I went home for Christmas and my brother was there, and we didn't get along, and my mother kept harping at me, why don't you get along with your brother? Why don't you get along with your brother? You need to do this, do that. Gordon George: And that's the first time I told my mother to shut up. I'd had enough. Packed my bags and left. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So- and that's when- later that spring is when I came out to my family. Toby Jenkins: Okay, the whole family, or just your parents, or your mom, or? Gordon George: My mom and sister. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and how did they handle that? Gordon George: Better than I thought. Mother and I became good friends after that. When I moved to Oklahoma City and then moved back to Tulsa, she would go to the bars with me, and yeah, we would- and there were times we would- just the two of us would go out and have drinks. Sit and talk for hours. 'Cause she lived with me for a while too. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So did she enjoy hanging around with your friends and going to theGordon George: Oh yeah, she was good. She was okay with it, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. 13 �Gordon George: When I was also involved in the Tulsa AIDS Task Force. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so that's what's going on. Gordon George: And we would do barbecues and stuff. We had a big barbecue out at Inola and they supplied the beef for it. They had a calf slaughtered andToby Jenkins: Oh, a family in Inola did it, or? Gordon George: No, my family. Toby Jenkins: Oh, your parents? Oh wonderful. Gordon George: They provided the beef. Toby Jenkins: And so it was a fundraiser for? Gordon George: Tulsa AIDS Task Force. Toby Jenkins: Okay. That's the first time I've heard that name. Dennis Neill: That was a group that the United Way and Community Service Council had pulled together. All the conveners that met, and then eventually it's been off to Tulsa Cares. Does that sound right? Gordon George: I couldn't tell you. Toby Jenkins: But it's called the Tulsa AIDS Task Force? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. We were the fundraisers for them. Toby Jenkins: For the programs for people living with HIV AIDS? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and that would've been mid-80s? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And by then, apparently, your family was supporting you, your parents, especially if they were going to gay clubs with you and donating beef for a cookout. Do you remember the first time you heard about AIDS? Gordon George: I had seen it on the news, but I didn't know. I had a friend that asked me to get involved with the task force to help with the fundraising. Toby Jenkins: Did you know people in those early days, who had AIDS and were dying? Or do you rememberGordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: With the church, I was on the RAIN team. 14 �Toby Jenkins: At Metropolitan Community Church, they're a RAIN team? And what did a RAIN team do? Gordon George: We went to support families and patients with HIV. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And I've seen too many die, so I had to quit doing it. It was too rough. Toby Jenkins: When you say too many died, like there were five or six people that died, or was there dozens, or what was it like forGordon George: That I was involved with, it was probably four or five. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And then, I had a personal friend that became ill. Toby Jenkins: And so what was that like in those days? You found out your friends had AIDS. What were your thoughts? Tell us what that was like in those days. Gordon George: It was bad. It was tough, especially the friend that I- I was working fulltime. He needed help. And I quit my job. Spent the last couple months of his life helping him. So and that was really bad, really tough. Toby Jenkins: And just took care of him? Gordon George: He went to- well, part of the fundraising that I had helped with, we give, if I remember right, about $10,000 to- I can't think of the name of it, Catholic Charities. They're home forToby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And he's actuallyToby Jenkins: St. Joseph's ... . Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: That was a hospice care center. Gordon George: Right. And that's where he was at, when he died. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So- and I was- it made me feel good that I would help raise the money to help support their organization, and they helped him. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So yeah, it was tough. And he was saying that, why he was- talking about why he was on earth. And I said, "Part of it was because you could be my friend." And that was tough. And I was with him when he took his last breath. So his mother and I were with him. 15 �Toby Jenkins: So in those days, people were finding- they would find out they were ill. I mean, would they go to the doctor because they were feeling bad, or because they were being cautious? Gordon George: They'd go find out that they were ill. And when you found out you had HIV AIDS, there wasn't any kind of treatment plan that was keeping you alive longer in those early days. So people were gone pretty quick. Toby Jenkins: Or did people live with it for a while? Do you remember? Gordon George: Both. Toby Jenkins: Both? So some people lasted longer thanGordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And what was the general attitude of the community in those days, like in the gay bars, did people act different with their behavior? Did they shun or isolate people once they found out they were sick, or were people being cautious or being careful not to spread it? Gordon George: They weren't as careful as they should've beenToby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: - back then. 'Cause it really hadn't hit home so much here in Oklahoma like it was on major metropolitan areas. So- but once it really got a hold here, people were thinking, oh, yeah, we need to be more careful and actually more responsive as far as fundraising, so…I met a lot of people during the fundraising, people that cared. Toby Jenkins: People outside the gay community, or justGordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: The Perigos were one of them [Jerry and Peggy Perigo]. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Yeah. Perigo family? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Who [Jerry Perigo] was the judge here in town. So this would have all been during the 80s, right? Gordon George: Right. 16 �Toby Jenkins: So you were involved with the Tulsa AIDS Task Force, and a part of RAIN, which was a care team associated with your church. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: That provided care for people living with HIV AIDS. When did you begin to- did you start- were you still working at Southwest Bell? You said you quit your job to take care of your friend. Gordon George: Oh, no. I had left Southwestern Bell before that. I left Southwestern Bell in '85. Toby Jenkins: Okay. When did you- I know you're doing the work with the AIDS Task Force, what about relationships? Did you have a partner during those days? Did you haveGordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you just kinda hung out with the group? Gordon George: Right. Yeah. I didn't- yeah. It was not a pleasant time after I left Bell, and 'cause I did an odd job kinda things and wound up declaring bankruptcy and had to start all over. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So in the fundraising part, did you ever get involved with the quilts, the NAMES project, the AIDS quilts? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. But you were aware thatGordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Yeah. I had seen it, but I wasn't involved in any of the organization part of it. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever participate in the annual follies that were big fundraisers for the HIV AIDS causes? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Big performance shows. Okay. When did you begin to get involved with TOHR? Did I ask if you ever went to any of the pride picnics, or the pride parades? Did you ever get involved with any of that? Gordon George: No. I didn't get involved until, what was it, '91, '92, maybe. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And it was when I was attending your church organization. That's when I got involved. 17 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah, that would've been later. That would have been about 1999 something. Gordon George: Was it that late? Toby Jenkins: Yeah. AndGordon George: Oh, okay. '99. Toby Jenkins: You're talking aboutGordon George: Yeah, '99. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, you're talking about the Ekklesia group? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Which is a group for recovering evangelicals and who- wasn't really a church. It was kind of a Christian support group. And it would meet at the center, the TOHR center, which was in Highland Park. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: So that's where you've began to get involved and started volunteering with the organization. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Do you… I know that at one year, you received 'Volunteer of the year' from TOHR- probably Oklahomans for Equality by then. And why were you given that award? Do you remember? Gordon George: For the help of working here on the building. Toby Jenkins: Yep. Gordon George: And doing…I got even the very first Thanksgiving dinner we had here I helped with. I wasn't in charge of it at that time, but I helped with it. So- and Kristi Freeman I think was ... Toby Jenkins: Kristi Freeman? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Who was on the board. Gordon George: Yeah, I helped her and then one year when Nancy McDonald helped with it andToby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And then after that's when I actually started conducting it all. 18 �Toby Jenkins: So I know that you were very involved with the organization when they bought the building. And you're talking about, for a year we spent renovating. And Christy Frisbee, Sue Welch and some of those folks led some of the- we did it ourselves. Our gay boys were designers and our girls were good with power tools. So we were a perfect match and we did it ourselves, didn't we? You have to. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And so you spent some time down hereGordon George: Hanging sheet rock and that kinda stuff, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, ripping up carpet and pushing up old tile. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And we were proud to have it, weren't we? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So you had been in Tulsa for a while. So you'd kind of saw an evolution where we had had smaller centers, that were kinda tucked into hidden places. All of a sudden we were right downtown. Yeah. I know that you also were very involved every time we had the big dances and the big events. Toby Jenkins: You always were in charge of the kitchen and the refreshments and for the fall-a-law ball. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And the Wild Hearts ball and volunteered at the Equality Gala. So you were very helpful and a very good organizer, especially when it came to setting things up and food service. So you talked about- you got involved with the Thanksgiving dinner. Can you kinda remember some details why we did that, why we had it? Gordon George: It was for people that didn't have families to go to. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and why would they not have had families to go to? Gordon George: A lot of their families disowned them. Toby Jenkins: Right. Gordon George: And I was fortunate enough, my family didn't disown me. Toby Jenkins: Right. And it was on- what day did we do it? Gordon George: Usually Thanksgiving Day. Toby Jenkins: And did you have to cook all the food or where did the food come from? Gordon George: A lot of the food was donated, but there was a couple times that I cooked the turkeys. 19 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Right. Gordon George: And I was- back on those days I thought I wouldn't do it today. Toby Jenkins: And so now, for anybody who's familiar with the Equality Center today, we have a commercial kitchen. But in those days ... Gordon George: Oh, no. Toby Jenkins: - we had the kitchen that we put together ourselves. Gordon George: Tiny hole-in-the-wall kitchen. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And you'd have to serve hundreds of people ... . Okay. Gordon George: I think the most we served was 225. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so we talked about this. So we worked with the faith communities that were inclusive and welcoming. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And they kinda sponsored and would provide all the food. So it was like a massive potluck dinner and you had to coordinate all that. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And that was all served on Thanksgiving Day. But the food started coming in when? Gordon George: The day before, or ... Toby Jenkins: A couple of days. Yeah. Gordon George: Depends on the organization. Toby Jenkins: And you all would be back there preparing turkeys and hams and ... Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So- and we not only served people on Thanksgiving Day, we provided to-go meals for people who ... Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: You could call down here and we'd deliver those to you. About how many faith communities were involved, do you remember? Gordon George: Oh, eight, ten maybe. Toby Jenkins: Yeah? Gordon George: Somewhere around there. I don't remember for sure. 20 �Toby Jenkins: Do you remember the year of Muslims for Mercy or the- they were compassionate Muslims. They provided the turkey and it was seasoned with the Middle Eastern flavor. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Okay, so ... Gordon George: That's when I quit cooking turkeys after that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. But- so we did that, and it was called 'Come Home for the Holidays'. And we'd have a huge turnout. Transgender people who were not allowed to go home and present to their family as they identified. Gay couples who- they might be able to go home but they couldn't bring their boyfriend or their girlfriend home. And then it got to where entire families just came out to show support. And about how many people would help you work on that event. Gordon George: Oh, 15 maybe or 20, depends. Toby Jenkins: And then on Thanksgiving morning, how many people to get it all ready to go? Gordon George: Usually maybe 8 to 10. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Including my family. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, now tell us about how you got your family, talked into helping with this. Gordon George: I don't remember other than, I was involved with it and I wasn't going to their place. And at that point, my mother had died. So it was- can't go home. Home was changed. So we- I volunteered to keep- from thinking about Thanksgiving at home is no longerToby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And so they would come here. My dad and my sister and brother-inlaw and my nieces and nephews andToby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: They would all come. At one point, all came involved. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, your brother and his wife. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And their children, and yeah. Gordon George: Yeah. My brother, when he was alive, he was here when he could. And they lived in Collinsville. So it wasn't- it was easier for them to come and help. 21 �Toby Jenkins: But your sister was coming from where? Gordon George: Near Kansas City. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And it became a thing for over a decade. Gordon George: Yeah. Until COVID. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: COVID put an end to it. Toby Jenkins: So I know you volunteered with the Equality Gala. Did you volunteer at Pride too? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. I helped in the treasury departments. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Counted tickets and counted tickets. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. And that you were always available to help for just so many things that we were doing. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: I know today you're pretty involved in the Oklahomans for Equality's program for senior adults. Do you remember when you began to get involved with that? Originally, I think we called it SAGE butGordon George: I don't remember. It was when we were a smaller group and it was before the remodeling of the event center and the kitchen. It was before that that I was involved with SAGE when we met in the great hall. Toby Jenkins: So about 13, 14 years ago. Gordon George: I don't know. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Too many years ago to think about. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And what was your reason for being involved with that? Gordon George: It was an outreach for being around gay people that were my age. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And much like the work you did with RAIN team and AIDS over the years, we've lost a lot of people who were involved in that program. Many, many, many people. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Tell us some of the things that SAGE would do. Like, did we go see people, check on people? 22 �Gordon George: I wasn't involved in a lot of that. I would just come during the day 'cause of the hours that I worked in the company that I was working for. I worked a lot of nights. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: So I didn't get to attend SAGE as much as I do now. Toby Jenkins: So I know- I wanna bring this up. I know you worked for companies and you understood they had corporate support for non-profits and you were able to get them to support- work here at the Equality Center. Gordon George: Right, they made a donation to us. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Was it Thanksgiving they would sponsor or was it the SAGE program ... Gordon George: No, it was ... - now that you mention it, I don't remember. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: I know they- it was during- it was closer to the holidays, yeah, so. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yep. So you understood the value of getting corporate support. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And they were willing to do it, weren't they, that company? Gordon George: Right. And I think that was- it happened a lot, when they had to do some diversity training because of the way I was treated at work. Toby Jenkins: Right. Gordon George: Particularly one, there are two people out there that were hateful. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And so, they had diversity training and I think that was what brought it out, that they give us money. Or even some of the people who were not happy, that they give the money to us, here. But they had to get over it. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So that's interesting because presently in 2026, companies, anybody who does any kind of diversity, inclusion or equity or equality efforts, DEI as we call it, that's supposed, now companies are afraid to do that. And of course the administration in the White House has labeled that as woke and bad, and universities, and public institutions, and publicly funded institutions. And we've seen corporations step back from that for fear of retribution. But you knew why diversity training was important personally, because you had experienced discrimination in the workplace? Gordon George: Right, right. Toby Jenkins: And then your company23 �Gordon George: Put a stop to it. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And said, we need to do more to make sure all of our LGBT employees feel valued. Gordon George: Yeah. And I wasn't the only one at that point. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: There was others that came out. And it wasn't just the level that I was at as far as an employee, there was even higher up. I mean one of the chemists came out. And so, it wasn't just a lowly production worker, so. And there were several. Toby Jenkins: Now just out of curiosity, you've told us your age. You had saw things change, hadn't you, in Oklahoma from when you first got to Tulsa? I know we've talked a lot about your time in Tulsa, so if I've corrected this, you've been here about 45 years in the Tulsa area. I think maybe there were some times you moved away and came back, is-you saw a lot of changes, especially for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and all the different letters of the acronym that we use for the gay community. There's been a lot of changes. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Right. Do you feel like, from the early days, where your life was pretty private work and gay bars were the dark, private places where we hid away from the general community, we couldn't walk down the street holding hands, we did have pride parades. Do you feel like Tulsa changed and became better? Gordon George: Yes, it improved. It was slow, but it kept improving to the point where it was more comfortable to be out, and OkEq was a big part of that for me to be comfortable on being out. The community was getting more involved. The city itself was becoming more involved. Toby Jenkins: The proclamations of Gay Day in the city and the mayor's backing on some things. Like naming the street Pride Street. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: So- and even to the point, where they named one of the streets of a deceased police officer that was a lesbian. Toby Jenkins: Jennifer Mansell. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Absolutely. Who was on the Tulsa Police Department and had named a street. That was an incredible day. I remember that. That was our first openly gay person to be her and her wife, who was a Wagner County treasurer, so… 24 �Gordon George: Yeah. And so it really improved a lot in those years until who got in the White House and things. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And who in the White House? Gordon George: Trump. Toby Jenkins: Right. Gordon George: Donald J. Trump. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So it's safe to say that whoever we put in the White House, that impacts all of us. Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: It changes our world. Gordon George: Especially when they're negative. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So you saw things improve, and do you think it was because of the visibility? I know Oklahomans for Equality was doing lots of advocacy work, but do you feel like some of it might have been because of the visibility of LGBTQ people, then being more visible and open and out at work and faith communities changing their positions? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: I mean, when you came to Tulsa, MCC was the only church that had an official mission and dedicated to the LGBT community. There were congregations like 'All Souls' and some other churches that may have been supportive of the community, but even they had not come out with an official policy. You saw that all change where faith communities helped support the Thanksgiving meals and also were a part of the pride parades and were sponsors of the Equality Gala, so. Gordon George: And it continued to grow. The pride parades just kept growing and growing, and more of the community of Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Corporations and companies proud to be a part of it. Yeah. So I haven't asked this to anybody else, and I just thought I was gonna- I'm gonna ask this to somebody who's kinda saw things change. Why do you think we have so few gay bars? Because when you first came to Tulsa, there were lots of gay bars. Gordon George: There was. Toby Jenkins: And we now just have just a few left. I think at the time of this interview, I only know of two, Majestic and Eagle, and then I guess Yellow Brick Road probably identifies this. But why do you think things have changed there? 25 �Gordon George: I don't know. I wonder that myself. Why it's- especially as an older adult there's not a whole lot of places that I would go that I would feel comfortable, as a gay bar. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: The Eagle, but I'm not so much into leather and- I'm not so much into going to the bars now, anyway. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So. Toby Jenkins: Do you think social media and used to, if you wanted a date, you had to go find 'em, right? Gordon George: Uh-huh. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And the places you found them was at the clubs. And you might meet people at work, but you were afraid to tell somebody at work for fear you're barking up the wrong tree. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Do you feel like the social media, the dating websites, the mobile apps, the hookup apps. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Do you feel like that has changed the way we connect and meet people? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Definitely. Yeah, it was easier to get online and you still had to wonder, okay, is it safe to meet this person or not? Are they gonna beat the hell out of me when I get there? That kinda thing. But social media made a big difference. I don't know if it's so much that- well, I think it's still even more now why the attendance to gay bars is down. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: It's because of social media, people doing- hooking up online. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you have lived long enough to see things change. You've seen things improve. But you've also saw us having to refight the fightGordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: - for stuff that we fought for. Gordon George: That's ongoing now. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. 26 �Gordon George: All the time, trying to protect the privileges and the rights that we got that they keep trying to roll back. Toby Jenkins: Right. Gordon George: And it's an ongoing battle. Toby Jenkins: Now, as you live your life, you're retired. And I know that you do a lot of volunteer work. So let's talk a little bit about that. And while we talk about that, I wanna know what your experience is. So I notice, let's start with you're branded today. And what is that? Gordon George: It's the ambassador program at the airport. Toby Jenkins: Tulsa International Airport. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And they are a great organization to volunteer for. And they take care of us quite well. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: They feed us multiple times a year. They're feeding us next month. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: The luncheon. Toby Jenkins: So they do a lot of volunteer appreciation? Gordon George: Oh, yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And so today, that we're doing, this is a Tuesday. Did you volunteer today at the airport? Gordon George: Yes, 06:00 AM. Toby Jenkins: Had to be there at 06:00 AM? Gordon George: To 09:00, three hour shifts. Toby Jenkins: And so what do you do? Park planes? Do you scrub planes? What do you do? Gordon George: Well, basically, we just direct traffic for passengers. Toby Jenkins: Oh, okay. Gordon George: Where's the nearest restroom? How do I get through TSA? Where do I take my luggage? That kinda thing. 27 �Toby Jenkins: So you're at an information booth, or? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay, alright. Gordon George: Or, as I'm what they call a roamer, which allows me to go in. I can go out on either concourse, A and B, and assist people out there, or assist people getting through TSA. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And what is that experience like? Do you enjoy it? Gordon George: I love it. Toby Jenkins: Do you? Gordon George: It's a great place to people watch. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: A lot of eye candy. Toby Jenkins: A lot of hot, attractive men, okay. Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Well, now we know why you do it. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So you do that how many times a week? Gordon George: I do twice a week, every other week. And then, sometimes on the fifth week of the month, I'll do extra. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, like holiday time, during holiday? Gordon George: I have done holiday extra. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. Do they know you're gay? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And do they treat you differently? Or do theyGordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: So do any of you other volunteers say, "Hey, Gordon, do you see that attractive man? Look at that." Gordon George: Oh, the straight women that we talk about. 28 �Toby Jenkins: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so. Everybody's looking, right? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. How wonderful. And I wanna thank you, on behalf of our community, for being there at the airport. I know that can't be real easy. Okay, so you do that. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you volunteer at the Tulsa International Airport in the ambassador program. What else do you volunteer with? Gordon George: I help distribute Meals on Wheels. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: I work in the distribution center to help pack the packages that drivers take. I help with that. And then, I also do driving. Toby Jenkins: So you have to drive? Gordon George: The delivery, yes. Toby Jenkins: Yes. And do you enjoy that? Gordon George: That's one day a week. Most of the time. Toby Jenkins: Yeah? And you have to do that regardless of the weather, right? Gordon George: No, they shut us down. The recent weather that we've had? Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: They shut us down. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, but in the middle of a hot summerGordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: - or pouring down rain, you'll still have to do it. Gordon George: Right, right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And would you encourage people to be a part of that program? Do they need more volunteers? Gordon George: They always need volunteers. Toby Jenkins: Okay. What else do you volunteer with? Gordon George: I volunteer with the SAGE group here. Of course, I do that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, with the seniors program here. Gordon George: Yeah. And I usher at the PAC in Broken Arrow. 29 �Toby Jenkins: And that's a volunteer position? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And what do you do there? Gordon George: Just as an usher. Toby Jenkins: Okay, andGordon George: Directing people to their seats. Toby Jenkins: - you don't get paid? You're just doing it? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Now, what would be the perks of that? Gordon George: You get to see the shows. Toby Jenkins: So where else is it you volunteer at? We were talking about the Broken Arrow PAC. Gordon George: Oh, so…I just lost my thought. Toby Jenkins: Well, let's talk a little bit about that cause I think we got cut off a little. So you're a volunteer over there. What are the perks about volunteering as an usher at the Broken Arrow Performing Arts Center? Gordon George: Well, I got to see Lily Tomlin. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And recently was Sandy Patty. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And other productions. Toby Jenkins: Have you ever been there when KristenChenoweth was there? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. Our only- our little hero we had. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So that's- would you encourage people to volunteer as ushers at the Performing Arts Center? Gordon George: Right, and they take very little of your time. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: I mean it's not even once a month. 30 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: 'Cause they have quite a few volunteers, 'cause they will take volunteers any time. Toby Jenkins: Okay. You volunteer still here at the Equality Center. Anything else you volunteer at? Gordon George: Life Senior Services. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and what do you do with them? Gordon George: I mainly just help at their major fundraisers. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: I help when they do those. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And tell us a little bit, what is Life Senior Services? Gordon George: It supports adult seniors, and they do so much in the community. They provide housing, they provide daycare for seniors. They don't call it daycare, it's something else. Toby Jenkins: Drop-in? Gordon George: Yeah, where people that can go- they have all kinds of classes. They haveToby Jenkins: Fitness center. Gordon George: Dancing, yeah, all the- bunch of stuff that they do. Toby Jenkins: They help you with your taxes. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Help you navigate Medicare and finding the right insurance. Gordon George: Right. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So do you enjoy volunteering with Life Senior Services? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Do they know you're gay? Gordon George: Well, I would think so. Toby Jenkins: Okay. But you always feel welcome there? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Very good. 31 �Gordon George: Not a problem. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you- I'll say this as a PSA. What you're doing by volunteering and serving our community, the whole community, that does more to help us make sure that we create an inclusive community for LGBTQ people because we're visible and we're helping out where it's needed, instead of silo-ing ourself and isolating ourself. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: That's my PSA. Do you find that to be true? Gordon George: Yes, and we have several with the senior group here that also are ambassadors. Toby Jenkins: Okay. That do the volunteer programs? Gordon George: Mm-hmm, that do this. Toby Jenkins: Oh, cool, very cool. So let's think about, an archeologist uncovers these archives in a 100 years and he's gonna look at your interview and what message do you want to give to those who come after us. Or maybe young people today who just are not sure how all this came to be. They just think it's always been like this. What would be your message to the future and to people? Young people today about what would you message would you give them? Gordon George: They have privileges that older people have worked for to appreciate those privileges and to work on keeping those privileges and to help support the LGBTQ community and get involved, stay involved. And keep working, 'cause it's never- it's gonna be an uphill battle no matter how long it's gonna be. 'Cause you're always gonna have people that don't like our community and it's gonna be an uphill, ongoing battle. Toby Jenkins: Alright. Gordon George: And keep doing it. Keep the battle going. Toby Jenkins: Anything else? Gordon George: No, I don't think so. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dennis Neill, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality and Toby Jenkins, we've been present for this interview. We conclude our interview with Gordon George, affectionately known as GG around Oklahomans for Equality. Toby Jenkins: Thank you for tuning in for this broadcast. Gordon George: I appreciate it. Thank you. 32 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Gordon George Interview Description An account of the resource In this conversation, Gordon George shares his life story, detailing his experiences growing up in Kansas, moving to Tulsa, and discovering his identity as a gay man. He reflects on the challenges he faced in school, his involvement in the LGBTQ community, and the impact of the AIDS crisis. Gordon discusses his journey of coming out to his family, the importance of volunteering, and the progress of LGBTQ rights over the years. He emphasizes the need for continued activism and support for future generations. Subject The topic of the resource Gordon George Oral History Project from February 3, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gordon George, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 3, 2026 2026 AIDS AIDS/HIV Gordon George HIV/AIDs interview OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Toby Jenkins transcript video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2003] Mike Green Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 4, 2003 Description An account of the resource Transcript only of oral history interview with Kerry Lewis on May 4th, 2003. Born on June 25th, 1932, in Tulsa, Mike served as the Oklahomans for Human Rights, Tulsa Chapter as its first Vice-President when it was formed in 1980. He often represented members of the LGBTQ+ community with various legal issues, including incidents of police entrapment. Married in 1955, he and his wife divorced in 1967 after which he became involved with Tulsa’s gay community. Mike passed in Tulsa in the early 2020’s.<br /><br />Need deed of gift. Tape says "1st Treasurer 1980-1982." <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Subject The topic of the resource Mike Green Oral History Project Interview from May 4, 2003 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mike Green, Kerry Lewis, Dennis Neill 2003 interview Kerry Lewis legal protection Mike Green OHR OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahomans for Human Rights Oklahomans for Human Rights - Tulsa Chapter oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript police abuse TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/80148d6fd82c4fb1120d20b177a365f9.pdf 225665e18ebba2395a66e636d13cdc2b PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Dr. Frances Fae Haas Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: May 5, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Mary Bishop-Baldwin using Reduct.Video AI Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Dr. Haas: Summary In this in-depth interview, Dr. Frances Haas shares her remarkable journey from a small-town girl to a pioneering physician serving the LGBTQ community, including HIV/AIDS patients and transgender individuals. She discusses her career, medical insights, advocacy, and the evolving landscape of gender-af rming care. Keywords LGBTQ healthcare, HIV/AIDS, transgender medicine, medical advocacy, Oklahoma healthcare, gender-af rming care, HIV research, medical history, community activism Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Dr. Frances Haas 01:32 Early Life and Education 05:23 Career Beginnings in Nursing 09:19 Journey to Medical School 11:26 First Encounters with HIV Patients 14:07 Stigma and Challenges in HIV Care 15:24 Medical School and Specialization 19:10 Establishing an HIV Practice 21:12 Advancements in HIV Treatment 23:12 Caring for Transgender Patients 26:21 Evolving Patient Demographics 28:34 Insurance Challenges in Transgender Care 30:36 The Journey to Gender Af rming Care fi fi fi 2 �32:59 Navigating Treatment for Minors 36:48 Understanding Transgender Rights and Public Perception 40:07 The Intersection of HIV and Transgender Health 44:07 Community Engagement and Activism 47:47 Ethics of HIV Disclosure 51:05 The Future of HIV Treatment and Education 56:00 Personal Re ections and Family Dynamics 01:03:02 Messages for Future Generations Dr. Frances Haas Oral History Interview May 5, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Thank you for joining us today. It is May 5th, 2026, here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, the headquarters of Oklahomans for Equality, and we are in the Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library, and you're here for a History Project interview. Today our special guest is Frances Haas. Could you give us your name – your full name? Dr. Frances Haas: Frances Fae Haas. Toby Jenkins: Frances Fae Haas. Never knew the middle name. I love it. And she will be with us today. We refer to her as Dr. Haas or Miracle Worker, but we also have Dennis Neill, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, with us today, and Mary Bishop-Baldwin here, a part of the History Archives, and I'm Toby Jenkins conducting the interview. Frances, or Dr. Haas, I'm going to call you Dr. Haas because that's the thing I'm most comfortable with, if that's all right? Dr. Frances Haas: That's ne, either one. Toby Jenkins: So I want to know, we're going to talk about your career in medicine and serving speci cally the LGBTQ community, but I want to nd out a little bit about, you know, how you became Frances Haas, Dr. Frances Haas. Where were you born? Dr. Frances Haas: I was born in Evansville, Indiana. I'm from the little town of Boonville, Indiana, in the southwest corner of Indiana. Toby Jenkins: And was that a big metropolis, or was that a little bitty town? Dr. Frances Haas: Evansville is a small city. Boonville is about 5-6,000 people. Toby Jenkins: And what was your family like? I mean, what did your father do? Dr. Frances Haas: My father was a mechanic. My mother was a telephone operator. I have an older half-sister, and I have a younger full sister. Toby Jenkins: All right. And did you graduate from there? fi fi fl fi 3 �Toby Jenkins: Where at in western Missouri? Dr. Frances Haas: Milo is the name of the little town, but it's kind of close to Nevada and Eldorado Springs. I graduated from Eldorado Springs. Toby Jenkins: Well, that's beautiful country. I know that well. Just curious, what were some of the things that you were interested in when you were a kid or a teenager? Dr. Frances Haas: When I was a kid, I liked a lot of crafts. I was not a girl who played with dolls. You know, I liked plants. I mean, I planted beans out of mom's cupboard and everything. I experimented on plants. I had a mother-in-law's tongue, and I did surgery on it. But they thought I'd probably be something like a botanist or something. And then when we moved to the farm in Missouri, I discovered I liked cows. And so my major when I went off to college was pre-ag. Toby Jenkins: So when you were in high school, were you real good in math and science? I mean, did you have an aptitude for that? Dr. Frances Haas: I was good in the rst two years. You know, I had two years of algebra, two years of Latin, and I did well in school. But it was a bad home life. My rst stepfather was very abusive. There was sexual abuse involved. And so I switched to business. It was just a chaotic, chaotic life. Toby Jenkins: And so you went off to—you graduated from— Dr. Frances Haas: Eldorado Springs High School. Toby Jenkins: And then where did you go to college? Dr. Frances Haas: I went to Missouri Southern in Joplin in pre-ag. My mother picked where I would go. I didn't have any choice in the matter. And after one year of college, I went home for the summer. My rst stepfather was an alcoholic. He'd gotten pretty violent and all. Actually, my little sister and I got kicked out at 18. She was 17. And so we went down to Joplin, stayed at the YWCA. And I got myself a job as a nurse aide in the nursing home. And she got a job at the stockyard in the restaurant as a waitress. Igot myself enrolled in nursing school because I thought a nurse aide—an RN, was a nurse aide who made more money. And then— Toby Jenkins: And that was at school there? Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, and got my little sister enrolled. Our father had died when I was 15, so we had some Social Security and VA coming in. It was $146 or less during the period, but I made it through college on that. Missouri Southern was one of the 10 cheapest universities in the United States. Toby Jenkins: And so what years would this have been? fi fi 4 fi fi Dr. Frances Haas: No. My father was a binge alcoholic, and my mom divorced him when I was a freshman in high school and remarried her rst husband, who was my half-sister's father. We moved to western Missouri to a farm. �Dr. Frances Haas: Let's see, I started college in 1969, and then 1970 to 1972, I have an associate of science degree in nursing in ’72. Then I started work as a nurse at the osteopathic hospital in Joplin, Oak Hill. They had medical students start coming in. I never dreamed of being a doctor, never, ever, ever. I was afraid of the doctors, but the medical students were only a few years older than me, and I wasn't afraid of them. So that's when I decided, well, I want to be a doctor, and started taking the pre-med subjects. At that time, a lot of times, I was the only RN in the hospital, and there were no doctors there, so you were just kind of, it was about 100 beds. We're talking about the early ’70s. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so this would have been at the osteopathic hospital? Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, in Joplin. Toby Jenkins: And is that where you went to medical school for your degree, was osteopath college? Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. I took my pre-med subjects there and was interviewing, I interviewed here at OSU medical school program and in an osteopathic school in West Virginia, but I wasn't getting any encouragement. My mother was very much against me going to medical school because she thought that they would force her to pay for it. My brother-in-law, who was a psychiatrist, didn't encourage me to go. I found out later, the reason was that he realized with my personality, my patients would be richer than me, and he's probably right. But anyhow, he was very supportive later. So I gave up the dream, and I moved back to Indiana. That was in 1979. I worked at the local hospital there, and I was assistant director of nursing, an ICU head nurse, and did medical staff quality assurance and utilization review. I told a physician friend who was an osteopath that the decision I regretted most in life was not going to medical school and I was too old, and he says, “I don't think you're too old.” He took me back to his of ce, got me out the American Osteopathic Association Directory, and showed me where they had the schools and all. So I started applying. I don't even have a bachelor's degree. I have an associate degree in science. So I started applying. I had excellent references, even one from the nun head of our hospital. My grades were – some of them weren't so good, and some of them were superb, depending on how much I was partying when I was younger, because I did like to party. I was out of pre-med by about 10 years, and so I applied, and you get turned down and everything. It's discouraging, but I kept applying. And I was at Mass one Sunday, and we were standing up doing the responses that they do in the Catholic Church. I remember the sun shining in, and God said, “Take care of people with HIV.” And that's where it came from. Toby Jenkins: Wow. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, and I just knew at that point, I'm gonna get in. Just keep trying, and whatever you do, help people with HIV. So then I did get in. I was an alternate; I almost didn't get to go. I missed all of orientation. Toby Jenkins: And what year would that have been? Dr. Frances Haas: 1991. Toby Jenkins: 1991. fi 5 �Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. I missed all of orientation, because they called when I had been down in Mexico visiting. I had a foreign exchange student. I'd been down in Mexico visiting them, and came back on Amtrak, and got home about eight in the morning. That afternoon, I got a telephone call from Kansas City University, which is the one I wanted to go to the most. I'd had an interview there, I was an alternate. But I didn't think I was gonna get to go, because it was time for school to start. They said, “We have an opening. Can you come?” And I said, “Yes.” And I said, “When do you want me there?” They said as soon as you can get here. So that was a Tuesday afternoon. Wednesday, I went in and quit my job. Actually, the university had called my work, trying to nd me, because they were trying to get ahold of me, and they couldn't, so they called my place of employment. So theyToby Jenkins: And that was in Indiana? Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, so they all knew. They got together a going-away party for me, bought me an otoscope and a ophthalmoscope and everything. Then I had to go to Evansville to get a pair of glasses, because I'd lost mine on the trip, and I was blind as a bat, and then pack my car. Thursday I drove 500 miles to Kansas City. Friday I enrolled at the school and had my physical in the dean's of ce and started school on Monday. Toby Jenkins: Wow. Dr. Frances Haas: And it was hard that rst year. I remember I struggled. Toby Jenkins: And how old were you? Dr. Frances Haas: I was 39 when I was accepted, and I wasn't even the oldest woman. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been 1991? Dr. Frances Haas: Uh-huh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: And were you partnered at this time? Were you married? Dr. Frances Haas: No, no. Toby Jenkins: So you were single. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Toby Jenkins: And you had been working in Indiana. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: In nursing. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And so you'd had this religious experience where you felt like you were called to do this. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. fi fi fi 6 �Dr. Frances Haas: I think my rst exposure to an HIV patient was when I worked for about six months out at Stanford University in California. And there was a young man brought in to our unit. It was a med-surg unit. And they said he was from San Francisco and that he was gay. I remember him as being very thin, and he had lymphoma of the brain. This was probably about 1975, 1976. This is before HIV was there. When I was out at Stanford, we used double doses of antibiotics. If it said every six hours, we were giving it every four on these patients that were being transferred in. But that one young man I'm pretty sure had HIV. It just was not recognized at that point. At that point, we didn't use gloves. I've had so many needle points – needle sticks – as a nurse that I can't – I lost count. So there but for the grace of God go I. But I can remember that young man and him dying and all with brain lymphoma. Toby Jenkins: So when did you begin to, like as a nurse, there in your work in Indiana. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: You lived, you were right in the middle of nursing. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: When HIV and AIDS had made it to the middle of the heartland. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. There was a patient brought into our little hospital. We weren't a big hospital. And it was the son of our unit clerk. Actually at one time, he'd been my orderly and then he'd gone off to the military and come back. He had a respiratory illness and there was talk going around. This was in the ’80s. So there was a lot of fear and everything. And I remember I did medical staff quality assurance at the time and the respiratory therapist was pushing me to have him checked for PCP pneumonia. I pushed back against it because he was getting treatment for it. I know the physician doing it didn't want that de nite diagnosis out there but he was treating appropriately for it. Because you're in a small town, and there is stigma. His mom worked there and all. I don't know if that young man is still alive or not. But that was probably the rst known HIV patient I took care of. He came in later, and we learned he had HIV. Toby Jenkins: So during the late ’80s, before you went into medical school, and you were working in hospital settings, a clinic, did you see a lot of stigma associated with people who possibly were HIV positive? Dr. Frances Haas: Some. Some. Actually, our hospital administrator from the Daughters of Charity, a little nun, she suggested – the little hospital was having problems nancially – and she suggested making the top oor into an HIV unit. There was some ack about that. What it turned out to be was an alcohol detox rehab unit. They screamed about that because the obstetric unit was up on the third oor. The fear was those druggies are going to go in and kill the babies, which of fi fl fi fi fl 7 fi fl Toby Jenkins: And had you already as a nurse in the hospitals there been working with HIV patients? �course didn't happen. But I always thought this little nun was ahead of her time. She was actually one of my references for medical school. Toby Jenkins: So you go to medical school in Kansas City, and did you specialize in infectious diseases? Dr. Frances Haas: No. I did medical school, and then I was going to do my internship in Joplin, because my mentor was there. My mentor is a cardiologist, and he trained me as a nurse. He trained me as an ICU nurse, and he did training of me as a medical student. But they had a hostile merger going on with Freeman Hospital. The FTC got called in on that, and the head of the program said this is probably not a good place for you to get an education. What about Tulsa? I said that's ne. Well, it turned out that the rst medical student I ever met, Dan Fieker, was the head of Tulsa Regional Medical Center. I didn't interview or anything, just called. He remembered me, and I was accepted in. Toby Jenkins: So what year did you move to Tulsa? Dr. Frances Haas: 1995. I did a year internship, because I didn't know if I wanted to do internal medicine, family medicine, or surgery. And so during that year, Dr. Tom Stees was head of the internal medicine program. I really liked him, even though he's tough as hell. But I mean, if you're going to go to school and you're going to pay that kind of money and all, you want the best. And you don't want an easy program; you want a hard program. And so I decided to do internal medicine. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been through OSU? Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, that was from ’96 to ’99. Toby Jenkins: And OSU hospital would have been called Tulsa Regional Medical Center. Dr. Frances Haas: And then Dr. Beal had the – what's the special program for HIV – it's the Ryan White program. They had the funding for that, but OSU got the program. Toby Jenkins: And what year would that have been? Dr. Frances Haas: ’96. And I can remember, I was so upset, because I was so excited, because I knew I wanted to do HIV at that time. Toby Jenkins: Well, yeah, you'd heard from God. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. And they were going to have residents, and then I can remember Dr. Stees saying that they’d decided the rst-year internal medicine residents couldn't do it. I remember I'd let out a profanity in front of him. I still remember the stunned look on his face. But then, so the second and third year I did the clinic. I was the only resident who liked the HIV clinic. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Were there several coming in, in Tulsa? Dr. Frances Haas: Several? Toby Jenkins: In the clinic? Were there several patients? fi fi fi 8 �Toby Jenkins: And this would have been, through what we call today the OSU Clinic, it would have been – I can't remember what it was called in those early days. Dr. Frances Haas: The Ryan White Clinic. Toby Jenkins: Oh, it was called, okay. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. And I guess the part I didn't like about it was people didn't know a lot. And that “ the best regimen was Crixivan-Combivir”. Well, Crixivan, I mean, yeah, it may be the best medicine, but it's hell to take. It was every eight hours on an empty stomach. You know patients are skipping doses. It gave you nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. It sucked as a regimen, even though it's “the best.” So that was a problem. And then Dr. Baker, who was in charge of the Ryan White Clinic, told me that Dr. (Jeffrey) Beal was wanting to move to Florida, and his clinic was up for sale. So that's how that came about. Toby Jenkins: I did not know that. So you purchased his practice. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. And so he had the old timers in there. And that's when I learned that it may not be the best regimen, but you get a regimen that patient will take faithfully. That's the most important thing is they take it consistently. Because we had what we called Florida-itis: They'd go on vacation, they'd conveniently forget their medicine because, by God, it made them feel like shit. And so you learn to nesse some of the meds so the patients will take them faithfully. Toby Jenkins: Now this medication that you were giving in this time, did it suppress the HIV virus? Or was this prior to the actual effective regimens that we found? Dr. Frances Haas: It suppressed the virus, but you had the side effects, and it made it dif cult to take. Toby Jenkins: And so when you got your practice, they had found the medication that kept people alive. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, Dr. Beal was doing studies, and I never ever thought that I would be doing medical studies, but that was part of the practice I bought. And so I learned to do those, and you got used to nessing, working with meds. It also brought in meds to the Midwest that were not available, except to those on the East Coast, West Coast, and Florida. Toby Jenkins: Because you were doing the research. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. So they came in two, three years earlier than would have been expected, and that led to some of these old-timers still out there because they got started on those regimens. Toby Jenkins: So when you're referring to old-timers, you're referring to lifers who lived with the virus. Dr. Frances Haas: 70s and 80s, yeah, that affected them. fi 9 fi fi Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. �Toby Jenkins: All right, thank you. And that would have been what year that you started doing the research? Dr. Frances Haas: I started in Dr. Beal's practice July 1999, and then he left January 1st, 2000. Toby Jenkins: So the medication that is helping the patients live and suppress the virus, did you begin to see a dramatic drop in deaths? Dr. Frances Haas: Over the years, yeah. You still, I found that you could suppress the HIV virus, but if you had hepatitis C, that went and killed them. So I started doing hepatitis C studies. With every death I tried to learn on. Like a patient that had pneumococcal pneumonia: I gave them the vaccine. Why didn't it protect them? Well, they got the vaccine when their T-cell count was less than 200. So I found that when I got their T-cell count above 200, I repeat that vaccine because their body was unable to react to the vaccine initially. I hated losing patients, but you're going to, but it's like, try to learn. Toby Jenkins: So was your practice mostly infectious disease, or did you, were you a –? Dr. Frances Haas: It's a mix. Toby Jenkins: You were a general physician. So you were treating all the other stuff. Dr. Frances Haas: I'm an internal medicine physician who has a special interest in hepatitis C and HIV, HIV rst. Then hepatitis C. The transgender population, I didn't know I was getting into that. I had had no training in it, though we did have a, we were going to have a noontime meeting in med school with somebody who was transgendered, but it got canceled, so I never got to do that. So I can still remember the rst transgender patient that Dr. Beal introduced me to and all. And then –. Toby Jenkins: And what year was that? Dr. Frances Haas: 1999. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: And I'm Facebook friends with her. And you probably know her. Toby Jenkins: Well, I have a question. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: On your patient load, about how many people in Tulsa at that time that you had a part of your practice, about how many patients did you have who were living with HIV/AIDS? Dr. Frances Haas: You know, I don't know. Toby Jenkins: Okay. fi fi 10 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah, because, I can remember when I got heavily involved here at the Equality Center, one of the persistent phone calls we had on the helpline, and just people reaching out to us, people were, it was dif cult to nd a doctor. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Who would, and usually it was from somebody who had just recently tested HIV positive, or, anyway, they were, that was a consistent call. And you were one of the few doctors we had that was still taking patients. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. And a problem with the Ryan White Clinic at that time was they had a long wait of time to get in. Those people were scared. So, you know, they, I got a lot of those patients who –. Toby Jenkins: So they were scared because they'd been recently diagnosed? Dr. Frances Haas: Diagnosed, yeah. And they had a –. Toby Jenkins: And they needed to get on the –. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, a three-month waiting period to get into the Ryan White Program. Now, I think that has changed now. Toby Jenkins: Right, and so, individuals who had been recently diagnosed were being told probably – this would have been into the early 2000s – were being told if they could get on medication and treatment, it would keep them from having fullblown AIDS. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So it was a frightening diagnosis. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And then realize you're on a ticking time bomb to make sure you get ahead of the disease. Dr. Frances Haas: And I think the studies we did also helped because a lot of them went on to studies. You got personalized care. I mean, you had a lot of hand-holding by my nurses and education and all – more so than the regular patient. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: And I think it gave you lifelong adherence. You know, it gave them an edge. It's like you had your own tutor in school, your own personal tutor. And so, you know, that basis was there for the rest of their life, for the old timers. Toby Jenkins: So, you mentioned earlier that you didn't realize that you were going to have a practice that included the care of transgender individuals. When did you rst start having transgender patients who were looking for gender-af rming care? Dr. Frances Haas: Well, I inherited those from Dr. Beal's practice. fi fi 11 fi fi Dr. Frances Haas: I don't know. And, you know, there are the old timers, and then I started getting newer ones, too. �Toby Jenkins: So he had a few. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Because he was one of the few doctors who did it. And the patients did a lot of teaching of me. I mean, they had more time than I did to read. They educated me a lot. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Do you have any idea when that you began to see, not just the ones you inherited, but new referrals? Dr. Frances Haas: Like 2000. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Wow. You would have been one of the few doctors in town. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. And one of the things I noticed over the years, initially, a lot of my patients, I knew once they were in their, usually late 30s, early 40s, as the years went by, I had started having parents bringing in their high school students. And that was de nitely a change. Probably around 2005, 2006, that had started, where the younger people, and it was because they recognized it. They didn't, people, the kids knew they were different, but they didn't know what it was. And being heterosexual, as one patient from Owasso told me, she says, “I hung out with the lesbians,” but she never, she says, “I never felt that it was right.” And she was transgender, female to male. Toby Jenkins: So female to male. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: And there's de nitely a difference. Toby Jenkins: Right. So you're doing infectious disease, caregiving, and gender af rming care for transgender persons and gender-expansive persons. I'm trying to make sure I'm using all the current terminology. Dr. Frances Haas: I haven't heard gender-expansive. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So did you have any battles with health insurance companies not wanting to cover certain treatments for all of your populations? Dr. Frances Haas: A lot of times they did not cover the hormones. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. I'm not sure about the of ce visits and all. My of ce manager, you know, could probably tell you that. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: But yeah, the hormones, and we would look, you know, trying to see where we could get the cheapest hormones, you know, what drugstore. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: And at that time there could be a lot of... fi fi fi fi fi 12 �Toby Jenkins: Did you see an increase of this? I mean, did you begin to see more and more and more because people, they, well, insurance companies being more favorable, but also patients by word of mouth, them telling other individuals? Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, because for several years you were where we referred people, you and just a handful of other doctors. Dr. Frances Haas: And I was glad to see the younger people coming in because cosmetic results were much better. The transition to the appearance of the other improved. Toby Jenkins: Right. Made them more passable and less con ict with presentation. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. It's amazing. I'd be there sitting with the patient. We'd be talking about their blood pressure, cholesterol, and something would come up and they would remind me of their biological sex because I get, you know, I'd be talking about prostate and they were a biological female. And, uh, they, they would remind me because they transitioned so well that, you know, you just, you know, they look like a man. Toby Jenkins: So these would have been individuals who were post-surgery. They had... Where did you refer people for surgical? Dr. Frances Haas: Initially, Stanley Biber out in Trinidad, Colorado. I even went out and met him. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: He's a nice old guy. And then, um, Darcy? Marcy? Toby Jenkins: Dr. Marci Bowers. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Yeah. And then her. And then there was a group down in the Dallas area. Uh, I can't remember their names anymore, that, that did a lot of it. And of course, initially, most people went to (Dr.) Biber or Thailand. A lot of people went to Thailand, and I thought, why Thailand? That didn't seem right. But I learned that they were more accepting of gender identity disorder, and some of their physicians had specialized in that. Toby Jenkins: And also, they were more affordable. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, true. Dennis Neill: Right. Dr. Haas, were you a sole practitioner? Dr. Frances Haas: Yes. Dennis Neill: Did you have any issues staf ng your clinic, given the clientele? Dr. Frances Haas: Not really staf ng it. I did hear a horror story from Dr. Beal about his of ce before I got there. I guess they were having new carpeting put in, and the fl fi fi fi 13 �guys came in and did it, and when they found out that it was an HIV practice, they didn't come back after lunch. And Dr. Beal could tell you a lot of stories about that. Dennis Neill: And then how about – you mentioned your service to adolescents looking at the transition. Were you also working with puberty blockers prior to hormones? So at what age do you see the appropriate transition from blockers to actual hormone therapy? Dr. Frances Haas: Usually, most of the patients who were coming in to me were probably around 16, 17. And I always made sure that they had a psychiatric evaluation before, because there were a few patients that's like, “I think you're crazy,” but they were patients that had gotten into the system. And they always had to bring a parent in with them. So that was part of it. Toby Jenkins: Now, did you start them on puberty blockers at 16 or 17, or did you go ahead and start them on hormones? Because at 16 or 17, several of them had already begun to –. Dr. Frances Haas: Most of them were coming at that age, so I just started them on hormones. They were kind of a little bit older. Toby Jenkins: And so in your research and your work, just curious if you're comfortable, there's such a debate around it right now, and, of course, Oklahoma is restricting care for minors. Your medical opinion, if you're comfortable telling us, do you have any concerns about the treatment of minors or puberty blockers, or do you feel like Oklahoma's made a huge mistake? Dr. Frances Haas: I think they've made a mistake in some areas. I'm okay with the hormones and puberty blockers, because if you stop them, you can usually reverse. There's some questions about fertility issues and all that. But what I am adamantly against is surgery before the age of 18. And I might even go older than that, because I've had some patients who are transgender, and then as I follow them, they had surgery. And later it's like, well, I've met this person, and it's like it's irreversible. Surgery's irreversible. The puberty blockers and hormones are not, you know. They can be reversed as a rule, but surgery you cannot. And so young people can get mixed up, and they can get confused. And, you know, I'm not the same person I was when I was that age. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: And so I am de nitely against the surgery. I might make exceptions for somebody who's got the characteristics of both sexes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: But those are not very common. Toby Jenkins: Right. Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: And I know I'm probably going to make some enemies with that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, well, but you're a medical doctor. We want your opinion. We want your position on this. fi 14 �Dr. Frances Haas: It's irreversible, and that's why. Toby Jenkins: So you're saying medical procedures for people who are intersex, who have some ambiguity about the genitalia. Okay. But you de nitely support parents and the physicians being able to prescribe puberty blockers and even some hormone therapies prior to 18. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Did you nd that parents came well-informed, or were they aggressive with you, demanding that you do this? I mean – Dr. Frances Haas: The patients, they came well-informed. They'd studied, and it was, uh, “I need help.” I didn't, I don't think I had any aggressive parents. I would occasionally get some aggressive patients who was like, “This is what I want,” and I didn't always agree with them. But they were usually in their 20s or 30s. But the parents, no, it's just like, “Help my kid.” You know, “I want what's best for my kid.” Toby Jenkins: So, um, while you've practiced in Oklahoma, and you've done research on a couple of different areas of specialties, um, has it been dif cult to see sometimes there'd be so much friction from the state Capitol trying to, um – Dr. Frances Haas: I don't understand it. It's like, a, as an example, a transgender person, female to male, could look like you. And I don't want a biological female who's transgendered to a male with a big beard and looks like a guy who's going to rape me in the bathroom with me. I'm sorry. But I have no problems with, say, a male to a female who looks female and everything. You know, it's appearance. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: And it would be dangerous for somebody who looks female, who's a biological male, to go into a male restroom. Vice versa for a male to, or a female to a male who looks male who goes, is required to go into a female restroom. It's going to freak, you know, women out, and especially if they've got their young kids and everything. And I don't think the legislators understand that. I really wonder if they should have an organized group that goes into the Legislature bathrooms and all and says, you know, here's my paperwork. I'm a biological female. You know, that's what, but I'm required to go into this, you know, female restroom. I'm sorry I look like a male, you know. Toby Jenkins: So you feel like the focus is too much on males to females who present as female but may be biologically male, and they're ignoring the fact that there are trans females who, or trans males who were born female and have transitioned and identify and present as male, and you feel like they're too focused on the gender speci cs. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah, and not the appearance. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Is that what's driving, is people's rejection of people, is that what's driving the political animus towards –? Dr. Frances Haas: I think part of it is the politicians, and of course it diverts from other subjects, but I don't think they understand. They don't, they don't understand. fi fi fi fi 15 �It's like when I would be on an airplane taking a trip, sitting next to somebody, and we'd start, you know, talking, I would tell them all, bring up about my HIV and tell them, you know, that I did that, and they'd start asking questions. It was a time to educate, and we need the same thing for the transgender, for them to educate, and maybe trying to meet one-on-one, you know, with legislators and say, you know, I'm a biological female, but they, you know, look de nitely male. And we don't want confrontation. We just want to educate. Toby Jenkins: So, I guess, is it overstating it by saying, obviously what's driving it at the statehouse, the politics, is not good medical science; it's not science; it's just personal animus and bigotry and targeting a speci c community who you don't understand. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, they don't understand it. And I have to say, you know, I didn't understand it. You know, there's a difference between being homosexual and transgender. Toby Jenkins: Right. One's sexual orientation, one is sexual identity. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. A lot of my transgender patients say that they were a male who wanted to transition to female. They look at their penis and their testicles as foreign masses. I mean, they're foreign objects, you know. It's like they're gross. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, very gender dysphoric. Dr. Frances Haas: And my female-to-male looked at the breasts as, oh, my God, you know, and they didn't like them. And I thought one interesting thing on my young people when they come in, female-to-male, and I, you know, would ask them what their bra size was, you know, cup size. And most of the time, they had no idea. A biological female usually knows, “I'm a B cup.” “I'm a D cup.” I mean, you're proud of it. Them, they didn't know, and their parent or a friend would speak up and say, “I think they're about a C cup.” But they never knew because they're binding their breasts. They're hiding them, because to them, they're gross. They're tumors. And I always thought that was an interesting thing. Toby Jenkins: Were all of your transgender patients, by the time they got to you, had they already been seeking counseling and therapy? Dr. Frances Haas: I required them to have counsel and get a referral from a psychiatrist or therapist. Because some of those that I got from Dr. Beale were, it's like I wasn't comfortable with it. And I also reserved, even if I got a psychiatric referral, if it didn't seem right to me, I would refuse to treat. But that only happened once. I checked with the counselor who referred, who was well-versed in it. And she says, “I agree with you.” She says, “But I went through all the testing. And they kind of aced all the questions and everything. But it just didn't, my gut instinct says, “I'm not sure this is right.” And so I went with my gut instinct, and I just declined to treat. Toby Jenkins: So as a physician, I mean, obviously, you want what's best for your patients. So did you have to, even for people living with HIV-AIDS, or just your other patients, did you have to make medical counsel decisions when your patient wanting something that you questioned whether it was good for them? fi fi 16 �Toby Jenkins: So I know over the years, while you've been focused on your patients and your care, you've also kind of been a community activist. I can remember the rst time I met you, it was at the AIDS walk, the annual AIDS walk that we would have in October. And it would be a gathering of the community to raise funds, usually for the Ryan White Clinic and Tulsa Cares. And usually, the money we raised went to those agencies. And that was the rst time I met you. You really stood out. There was a halo around you that said “Dr. Haas.” No, it wasn't that. What made you stand out is here was this little bitty, tiny lady with these massive dogs. And what kind of dogs are those? Dr. Frances Haas: Great Danes. Toby Jenkins: Great Danes. And they were huge. And you were so tiny. And we would do the AIDS walk, which usually was maybe a mile walk. I mean, it was just strictly for fun. But it was to raise funds. Did you enjoy those kind of social interactions? Dr. Frances Haas: I did. Toby Jenkins: You do realize that you added real legitimacy to this when a medical provider was out there? Because most of the time, it was just people from our community, individuals who were living with HIV, and their friends, and their family, and maybe their faith communities. But when the medical providers were there, there was a certain amount of, y'all were going the extra mile. You weren't only treating them. You were ghting for public awareness. Dr. Frances Haas: Well, I think part of that, I'm an osteopathic physician. We treat the whole patient. It's like if the patient can't get the medicine, I need to gure out how I can get the medicine for them. You know, you treat the whole body. It's not just the physical body; it's the mental component, spiritual, any, the monetary, you know, as much as you can. It's treating, you know, the holistic approach. And that's part of it, is being part of the community. And the osteopathic profession actually looks for their medical students. They look at the ones who have been involved. And like, you know, part of my references when I got in, it helped me to get in because my MCAT scores weren't that great. Like I said, some of my grades were good, superb, and some of them weren't so good. But I was active in politics, I was active in church, I was a Jaycee, active in different work things. Toby Jenkins: So your approach, even back when you were nursing, has been a community, you understood the value of community and alliances and resources. I know that there have been many times you've weighed in on negative bills that were being introduced by the Legislature. I want to ask speci cally about a particular bill. Back several years ago, Oklahomans for Equality was trying to advocate for a bill fi fi fi 17 fi fi Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, and that was tough. Some have noticed, and I've seen this with other physicians, as well, when the patient doesn't get what they want, they go and report you on Health Grades. Look at the referrals. It's usually somebody that's like, “They didn't give me my pain medicine.” That's a common one. But I've had patients, I didn't give them the hormones that they wanted. And some of them can get kind of far out there. The minority, by far. But majority of them were, you know, great. �that would not criminalize HIV people for infecting somebody else. And you and I had a big discussion about that, and I'd like to just know your thoughts about that. Criminalization of HIV people is people who knowingly try to infect someone or they don't tell somebody their status and put that person at risk. Now, that discussion was a much larger discussion probably prior to the development of PrEP and PEP and the pre-exposure prophylaxis treatments that are so common now with people living with HIV where the medication almost makes them non-transmittable. Their viral load is undetectable and they're not transmittable. You saw all that develop, so just give us your thoughts on intentionally HIV infecting somebody and the disease. Dr. Frances Haas: I think if you know that you're HIV, you have the responsibility to tell the person that you're going to have a sexual relationship with that you are, and taking precautions. I mean, it's just the right thing to do. Follow the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you don't know that you're infected, and that can happen, and you accidentally infect somebody, that to me is not a crime. But going out and, in fact, knowing you have it and going out and doing it. And I've had patients tell me horror stories I heard. One guy told me about how he and his drug abuse group, you know, stay off drugs, how he purposely slept with every woman in the group. You know, I had another patient who, the guy she was seeing, they were using a condom, and she didn't know that he was HIV, but he was putting a pinhole in on, which she went and checked him, and he had infected her. I had another one who knew he was positive who infected one of my transgender patients. And, you know, a teenager. I had another teenager who, you know, and I always wondered, you know, got infected, gave blood and found out they were infected. And I asked them who did it, and they said somebody at school, but I always worried that he lied to me. And then it was, you know, because I've got to report that stuff. If it's, you know, if an adult would have sexual relationships with a female, or with a... Toby Jenkins: Minor. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Right. Dr. Frances Haas: So I've always wondered about that. Toby Jenkins: And you've kind of seen it all, haven't you? Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Toby Jenkins: And so if I understand you, your position is if you know your status, you should be responsible and make sure that you protect others. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: It's just the right thing to do. Because you wouldn't, I don't think if you knew you were positive and you went out and infected somebody, it just seems so wrong and mean and sel sh. Toby Jenkins: And irresponsible. fi 18 �Dr. Frances Haas: And irresponsible. And, you know, now we've got the preventive, so that really helps. Toby Jenkins: But do you feel like there's almost an attitude? I don't know if you still are, you still practicing? Dr. Frances Haas: No. Toby Jenkins: It does feel like among our culture there is almost a, especially for individuals who are living with HIV that are undetectable and non-transmittable. It does feel like we have such a culture of casualness about it now because everybody just assumes that everybody's on PrEP- the pre-exposure prophylaxis- that everybody's on PrEP and that you don't have a responsibility to be transparent. It concerns me because, you know, I lived through the time when silence was death, and where it seems like right now we're in a real precipitous place because even the federal government is restricting funding for HIV treatment and HIV education and organizations and medical services are struggling to nd nancial support. I mean there are documented situations where some states have already begun. They've kicked off thousands of patients who are getting their treatments, and they're telling them they’re going to have to go nd medication someplace else. Dr. Frances Haas: I hope that their providers are going to some of the programs that the pharmaceutical companies have. I usually get down on pharmaceutical companies, but the ones with the HIV were wonderful. I mean, when I had problems getting meds for a patient, I would call up my rep, and they helped me a lot to get my meds that I needed for my patients. Dennis Neill: With regard to your clinic, when you decided to retire, where did your patients go, particularly those that were HIV or trans? Dr. Frances Haas: The ones that were trans went to a provider- and I can't remember their name, but it's over in the- who is a nurse practitioner or PA. You probably know who I mean. Toby Jenkins: Diversity Clinic. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, and then some of them went to the Ryan White. There was another local doctor that some of them went to. Dennis Neill: So you feel like there is enough capacity in our community to address these clients? Dr. Frances Haas: I don't know. Dennis Neill: And what year did you actually retire? Dr. Frances Haas: I quit in 2021 when I turned 70. It's like, okay, I'm working a 60hour workweek. I'm getting old. It's time to slow down. Dennis Neill: And did you sell the clinic? Dr. Frances Haas: No, I was working for Warren Clinic then, and I retired from them. Yeah, actually, when I bought the clinic from Jeff Beal and I tried to keep it going, but fi fi fi 19 �I couldn't make the insurance companies pay me, and I went broke with being in private practice, and you just didn't have the time because you're working so many hours and you're focusing on the patient to manage, you know, trying to get the insurance to pay, and then I joined University of Oklahoma and taught there for ve years and then I went to Warren Clinic and then retired from there, and since then I've been working for Geriatric Center of Tulsa until February of this year doing geriatric care and also would have residents in internal medicine from OSU and the medical school or the residency in Tahlequah to learn geriatric medicine. And I quit that in February. I wanted to learn osteopathic manipulation better because I had it in school but I didn't have anybody to practice on. So I asked OSU if I could, you know, kind of sit in on their classes, and they said, “Sure, we'll make you a table trainer.” They actually pay me, I said, “But I, I need to learn.” They said, “You know more than those rst-year students,” and so I've learned a lot. It's changed a lot in the past 30 years, and so I'm learning that, and I'm getting ready to start. I really miss patients and so I'm getting ready to start volunteering for I think it's called the Cura – C U R A – Clinic over in Sapulpa. So looking at that. Toby Jenkins: Well, we're always looking for volunteers here at our medical clinic here in theDr. Frances Haas: I don't have insurance. Toby Jenkins: And they have treated a lot of transgender patients. So we've talked a lot about your professional work and your patient work. Are you partnered? Dr. Frances Haas: You mean like a spouse? Toby Jenkins: Yes, yeah, Dr. Frances Haas: I nally married at age 48. Late to go to medical school; late to marry. Don't have any children except the dogs. My spouse has been very supportive of my work. Initially he was afraid that I would, you know, that I'd pick up HIV. But he's learned. I've educated him, And he was in computer management in the ONEOK building; he had a data center there. As he said, all these data centers that they're proposing here, he was kind of the start of it. Dennis Neill: And how about during your practice, your intersection with HOPE, Tulsa Cares, OkEQ, OSU, was that part of your outreach for your clients? Did you have much interaction with those other organizations? Dr. Frances Haas: I had some with OU. I had, would get residents from OU, internal medicine, rotating through. Toby Jenkins: In the medical school. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, and then not too much with OSU. Tulsa Cares, yes, you know, referring people to their nutritional program and all that. We worked together, worked a lot with Sharon Thoele, and HOPE, knew them, and you know, and they would refer patients to me. Toby Jenkins: Patients who had been recently diagnosed. Well, I know you usually attended the World AIDS Day events here at the Equality Center. I think we've had fi fi fi 20 �you speak a couple of times. I just wonder if our panelists have any other questions for you, and did you have anything else you want to make sure we cover? Dr. Frances Haas: I could say after I started doing transgender medicine, my stepbrother became my stepsister. I get a letter. It comes while we're driving out to Colorado, and I read the letter, and it's like, “Oh, well this makes perfect sense, because it's like something's not right about him.” And I can remember my parents, my mom and stepfather, my second stepfather, the good stepfather, talking about, is he gay? You know, they're married, they've got a kid, and when I got that letter, it's like, well this explains everything, and she had surgery in Thailand and everything. Toby Jenkins: So this would be the spouse of your sister? Dr. Frances Haas: It was my second stepfather, his son, is now my stepsister. So, and I've known her since I was 14. Dennis Neill: Now, how's she dealing with it in this new climate? Dr. Frances Haas: Fearful. They're thinking of moving to France. Dennis Neill: Oh, they live in France? Dr. Frances Haas: One reason I am for early treatment is she makes an ugly woman, because she had everything done at 50, started the hormones and all, so you know, you've got the masculinization. And I saw my people who started in high school, the feminization, they just, the appearance was much better. You know, some of them were really drop-dead beautiful. I was stunned. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: What a coincidence, though. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah, and you know, but she is, you know, a little bit fearful, and talking about moving to France. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: She did move to France. Dr. Frances Haas: She's thinking about it, yeah. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: She hasn’t yet. Where does she live now? Dr. Frances Haas: Vermont. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Okay. Toby Jenkins: Well I hope Vermont's more... Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: One of the more liberal areas. And what happened with her family after she... Dr. Frances Haas: That was kind of interesting. She, she was married, had a daughter. The marriage was a little rocky, and when this all came about, there was a pretty severe divorce, and the daughter went with the mother and was estranged from the father for years. And then on Facebook, the daughter says, who's Susan ******? And my little sister says, “I'm not answering that.” She says, “Let her Aunt 21 �Nancy handle that.” So Aunt Nancy said, you know, “That's your dad.” And so, then we all got together in Phoenix and had a family reunion. So, got back together. She didn't realize what was going on. Her mom had kept it from her. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: How old was she at the time? Dr. Frances Haas: She was probably in high school, but mom just, they just kept it hidden. And she didn't realize the transgender, you know. And so now they have a relationship again. Dennis Neill: Is that true with all extended family too, as far as the transgender? Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, you know, I am blessed in my family in that, you know, we're two blended families and we just get along really well. I mean, you know, I've got one niece that's a little bit of a problem, but we've just put the two families together really well for parents marrying later in life and all. So our family's really blessed. I compare it to my husband's family, and it's like he's got one of those families. I got a sister-in-law I don't like. Our family's been blessed in that we all get along. I think my second cousin, I think their son may be transgender. I know his mom called me to talk to me about it. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you've had family and friends and neighbors and patients and, you know. Yeah. We usually ask this, what message would you like to give for the future, for those who come after us, for younger people, younger activists, maybe younger medical providers, what message would you like to give them? Dr. Frances Haas: I think education of what being transgendered is, is incredibly necessary. Confrontation usually does not work. And for those accepting, it's like, as a female, I may like guys with dark hair or I may like guys with baldness. Other people can't stand a bald-headed guy. You can’t tell about sexual attraction. I can remember as a child getting mixed up with my gender when I was probably about 3 or 4. I have very ne hair. Somebody told my mother it'd thicken it up if they cut it short, like a boy. It's like, “Well, I have short hair. I must be a boy.” I named myself Gary. It probably only lasted about a year until my hair started growing out and I realized. They need research on it because there's different places in the brain that turn on and say, “I'm a male.” “I'm a female.” One of them's around age 2 or 3. There's another one in adolescence. On imaging studies, there’s some differences in male and female brains. One thing that I would like to see looked at is a lot of my transgender patients were what I call double-jointed, where they bring the hand back way like this. I don't know if it's that common in the regular population or if it's, you know, a trait of being transgender. I did bring this up with a friend of mine who's going to specialized in that disorder to look into that because it may be genetics. So it's not a choice. It's not a choice. Toby Jenkins: Physical characteristics that are manifest in all sorts of different ways. Certainly, it's just because someone is different or they may not be like everybody else. It's not a reason to vilify them, be violent towards them, or restrict their constitutional rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Anything else? Dr. Frances Haas: I think that's about it. fi 22 �Toby Jenkins: Thank you so much. This has been so helpful. Dr. Frances Fae Haas here on May 5th, 2026, at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library. You've heard her story here on the History Project. Thank you so much for Dr. Haas. And on behalf of our team, we want to thank you for serving the LGBTQ community, transgender community, our brothers and sisters who lived with HIV/AIDS. Thank you. I'm so glad that you saw that light in the window and you felt called to take care of this community. Thank you so much. 23 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Frances Haas Interview Subject The topic of the resource Frances Haas Oral History Interview from May 5, 2026 Description An account of the resource In this in-depth interview, Dr. Frances Haas shares her remarkable journey from a small-town girl to a pioneering physician serving the LGBTQ community, including HIV/AIDS patients and transgender individuals. She discusses her career, medical insights, advocacy, and the evolving landscape of gender-affirming care. Interview conducted by Toby Jenkins, transcribed and edited by Mary Bishop-Baldwin. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Frances Haas, Toby Jenkins, Mary Bishop-Baldwin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 5, 2026 2026 AIDS treatment AIDS/HIV Dr. Frances Fae Haas Frances Haas gender affirming gender affirming care gender-affirming care healthcare HIV research HIV treatment HIV/AIDs Mary Bishop-Baldwin OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Toby Jenkins transcript Transgender https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/023559720fd72ce52b47697fd079f211.JPG 4dfd0f8858284e1c50788f51c9ec4b9f https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/b5fde90b2684c2ec8438e2718e52f8c4.mp4 122ef854ea8cc57b0d701b3a8e39f867 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/a6620e81230ea3ccbc140ceb3d612311.pdf 9a54b9df7d6c3a4103fec956642cb721 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Kent Harrell (AKA Anita Richards) Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: December 23, 2025 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Riverside Studio.ai Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Project Interview December 23, 2025 Interview of Kent Harrell (AKA Anita Richards) by Toby Jenkins Addendum - Kent Harrell Show Notes from Riverside Studio AI Topics include: Drag performance, LGBT community, family dynamics, AIDS awareness, personal identity, marriage equality, pageant culture, early life, career beginnings Summary This conversation explores the life and experiences of Kent Wilson Harrell Jr., focusing on his journey through early life, family dynamics, understanding his sexual orientation, and his career in drag performance. Kent shares insights into the challenges faced by the LGBT community, particularly during the AIDS crisis, and reflects on his personal relationships, including his marriage to Taylor. The discussion emphasizes the importance of being true to oneself and offers advice for future generations. Takeaways Kent's family background includes a strong connection to the Air Force and NASA. Childhood experiences shaped Kent's understanding of gender identity. Acceptance of sexual orientation can be a challenging journey with family. Kent's drag career began in the late 1970s, inspired by performances he witnessed. The drag community has evolved significantly over the decades. Pageants in the LGBT community serve as both a platform for talent and a source of competition. 2 �The AIDS crisis had a profound impact on the LGBT community, leading to increased awareness and activism. Marriage equality has been a significant milestone for the LGBT community. Being true to oneself is essential for a fulfilling life Chapters 01:16 Introduction and Early Life 04:24 Family Dynamics and Schooling 07:23 Self-Discovery and Identity 10:21 Relationship Journey 13:21 Coming Out and Family Acceptance 20:13 Career Beginnings in Performance 25:15 Memorable Performances and Clubs 31:59 The Journey of a Performer 33:25 Pageant Culture in the LGBT Community 36:01 The Evolution of Pride Festivals 39:00 The Impact of AIDS on the Community 54:18 Love and Commitment in the LGBT Community ________________________________________________________________________Interview starts – Toby – please tell us your name. My name is Kent Wilson Harrell Jr. Toby - And for purposes of documentation, could you tell us your date of birth and how old you are at the time of this interview? 3 �March the 4th, 1960 and I am currently 65 years and about 9 months old I guess. Toby - Let's talk a little bit about how you got to us. The day of your appearance here in the world. So tell us where you were born, what city, and a little bit about your family. Well, my father worked for the federal government, and he worked for NASA. And he and my mother both were employees of Tinker Air Force Base. They worked for the Air Force. And my dad was constantly going for, what he did was quality assurance. Whenever the federal government would contract with an Air Force base to build a specific part for a plane or a rocket, or whatever and they needed a particular piece or something built, it was his responsibility to make sure that thing met government specifications. So he was constantly being moved to Air Force Base, Air Force Base, Air Force Base. So how I came into the world, he had been in Duluth, Minnesota for about six months, about four or five months, and my mother went to see him one weekend. And at this time, my dad was 43 years old and my mother was 39. They had a 17-year-old daughter and a seven year old daughter. So about a week or two weeks after that fact, they were out in an amusement park and my mother was a roller coaster fanatic and rode a roller coaster and got violently ill and went to the doctor the next day and the doctor said, you need to go to an obstetrician. And she went to the obstetrician. The obstetrician said, Mrs. Harold, you're pregnant. And she called my dad in Minnesota and said, guess what? We're going to have a new addition to my family. He said, no way. You're kidding. Anyway, long story short. That's how I came into the world from a weekend visit from Minnesota anyway. Toby - and they were living in Oklahoma City at the time. So you were born in Oklahoma City. Did you go to school in Oklahoma City? 4 �No, we lived in Oklahoma City until, well, for a long time, about two years, my dad was transferred to Vermont and New York State and then came back to our house in Oklahoma City after that and he came back to Tinker and then was transferred to North America Rockwell in December of 1964. So I was about four years and seven months old or so. So we moved to Tulsa and the first place we moved to was over on the west side. And we lived in an addition that's still in existence called Mountain Manor off of Southwest 33rd. The early days were Crystal City, shopping center and all that area around. Toby - and you went to school over in West Tulsa. Well, I started out, the situation was, in so much as both were working at North American Rockwell, my mother got a job there too. She was a statistician. And what they would do, they would drive from that area town towards North American Rockwell, and there was a little nursery school over on North Sheridan. And that's where they put me in daycare centers, we call them now. And so when I turned five, I had to go to kindergarten, of course, and the closest kindergarten to that daycare was Burbank Elementary, which is now the Bell Junior High School annex. And that's where I started my academia was at Burbank Elementary. Toby - Now, did you graduate from a Tulsa High School? No, as time went on, we ended up going from first to Tulsa, then they moved to Broken Arrow, and then from Broken Arrow to Rogers County and the Rogers County area. And we started out in Claremore and then moved to Oologah. So from seventh grade till my senior year, I went to high school and junior high in Oologah. And the reason I did that, my middle sister, because of my dad's position, had been moved from pillar to post, state to state, school to school. And when we finally settled in Oologah, I said, I'm not moving. I said, I'm not going to be transferred to any other schools. I'm going to stay here and graduate at this school. And if you don't like it, you're going to have to get me a transfer. And so that's what we did. And I spent from seventh to senior year in a very wonderful environment, a great, great school, and had a very normal academic situation in high school. 5 �Toby - and what high school. Oologah class of 197(?) Toby - For our viewing audience, I'm going to share a photo. How old are you in this photo? You're just a child. Six. Six years old. in this photo... Toby - You're dressed in a dress, looks like makeup. Tell us a little bit about, can you remember that event? My mother said once many, many years after the fact, she said, you know, when you were clumping down the hallway in my high heel shoes, I never expected you to turn it into a 45 year career. But I guess the situation was, I'm not going to say that I was, you know, you hear the stereotypical stories of a passive father, aggressive mother and all that kind of world. Not necessarily so with me, but my mother was a very gregarious individual. She was a wonderful personality and was a very colorful dresser. And she loved oranges and reds and greens and all vibrant colors. Well, men at that time were reduced to gray suits, blue suits, know, black suits. And here was this burden paradise in my household that was constantly looking so fabulous. And I thought that's what I, that's exactly how I'd like to be. so as stereotypical, I've heard this story from many, many gay individuals. I was attracted to, it was a crazy thing. I had my Tonka toys, had my GI Joes, I had my fire trucks, the whole rigmarole. But I also loved, my mom's high heels and all the bright colors and all the things and coming from that era no one ever specifically said to me you have to have a baseball or a basketball or a football or whatever. Whatever I wanted I got. It didn't matter to my dad whether I wanted a football which I had or a Barbie doll. Nobody ever cared. Which was so unusual from that time period. But you don't know it's unusual because it's your life, you know. Toby - So at six years old when you've got on makeup and a dress and high heels they thought it was 6 �They thought it was hysterical. My sister, at the time was 13, thought it was deplorable and that I was something to be hidden away as far as she was concerned. But no one ever took it seriously. They just thought it was funny. Toby - Now, how do you identify? What is your sexual orientation? How do you identify? You mean like of course I'm gay but I've always said male people have asked me it took me many, many years to make people in my family understand just because I was an entertainer a drag entertainer that I didn't necessarily want to be transgender full-time seven days a week Toby - Well thank you for sharing for that. Now you have a relationship. Tell us a little bit about your relationship. Taylor, my dear husband, Taylor and I met online when he was 19 years old. I didn't know how old he was. We got in contact on Facebook, and he got in contact with me instead of vice versa. I was just intrigued by this individual. I took a look at this face that I like, no face I'd ever seen before in my entire life. And something about him just was interesting. And I got to talking with him, asking who he was, where he was from. He told me he was from Minneapolis. I had no idea he was 19 years old. So when I found that out, I said, at that point in time, Facebook was talking to people or reporting that there were police departments around the United States that were using young men to entrap older gentlemen. you know, not knowing this person as I didn't, I didn't know whether that might have been the case also. So I found, once I found out specifically how old that he was, I said, I'm, I can't talk to you anymore. I'm sorry. And he said, but why? I said, well, you're just, you're too young. So I didn't speak to him for about close to a year and I did keep looking at his pictures and he kept looking at mine which I didn't realize till finally one day he messaged me and he said well, I'm 20 He said aren't I old enough for you to talk to now? Yes, I guess so and the situation was Taylor was Taylor felt he was transgender and from Minneapolis, Minnesota, and he was undergoing hormone therapy at that time. And he was engaged to be married to a gentleman that he was living with. But the gentleman that he was engaged to had a 7 �hard and fast rule. He said, if you want to take these hormones, that's your business and I can't stop you. But you will never, as long as you live under my roof, dress in female attire. And Taylor explained this to me and I said, you know, nobody has a right to tell you what you can and cannot be. If this is who you think you are, then you have every right on the face of the earth to be that. And I said, I'm going to give you an opportunity. I said, if you want to come to Tulsa and live with me, I said, I will make sure that you get the best medical attention. I will make sure in one way the other that you get the best best psychotherapy that you're going to have to have to do this. And I said, I will make sure that you get under the best medical care that you can have that we can find for you. If this is the person, you know, the avenue that you intend to be and who you feel you really are. So he said, he finally agreed to it. And he, and I said, well, then here's the, well, I said, I'm not rich. I have no money. I can't afford to send you here on a plane. But I said, I will try to get you here the best way I can. So bless his heart. He rode 17 and a half hours by bus to get here to Tulsa and as I told him We did get him under therapy Then he went through about and a half year worth of hormone therapy but somewhere along the way he didn't realize that it's a very hard and complicated thing to be a woman to there are certain things that you have to do in your day-to-day life that he really just didn't want to do so finally an individual who is very close to us who was trans sat him down and said Taylor you're about as female as the wall you're sitting against and I think you need to wean yourself off this medication and sit down and figure out who you really are and live your life, which is what he did. Toby - Thank you so much for sharing that. I want to talk to you a little bit about, this is your senior picture. Graduated from Oologah. Just curious, Kent, when was it that you realized that you were gay? I can tell you specifically. Toby - And tell us a little bit about maybe your interaction with your family. Because you and Taylor are legally married. And you're old enough to remember when same-sex marriage was not legal in Oklahoma. But tell us 8 �when you accepted your sexual orientation and maybe a little bit abouthow your family handled that identity. When I first realized that my attraction was more to the male gender, my mother and dad allowed me to go to a movie. I was 12 years old. There was a film that came out that year in 1972 called 40 Carrots. And it was about a lady who, a 40-year-old lady who on her birthday took a trip to Europe. And so on the prior was starring Liv Ullmann was the gal. And so in the process of this movie, she's driving along through Italy and her car stalls and she's on a bridge. And as she's out in the middle of nowhere, she doesn't know what she's going to do. And she walks over to the edge of this bridge and she looks down in this water. And there in this water is swimming this beautiful young man in a tiny yellow Speedo bikini. The yellow, the man in the bikini was Edward Albert Jr. And when he came up out of that water in this glistening, glistening photo, know, film, he came up out of that water. I was like, ha ha ha ha ha. And I knew right then that there was something a little different for me than most people. Or so I thought. I didn't know if I was the only individual like that or not. But that was the very first kind of initiation. Toby - You know, like all kids growing up in the 70s, you thought you were the only one on the face of the earth. You didn't talk about it. You know, I remember my mother and dad in a warehouse market and I was a movie magazine fanatic. And I was looking at some movie magazines and I was thumbing through and I looked down on the floor and there was a centerfold from that first, the very first edition of Playgirl magazine. And I unfolded that centerfold, went, holy cow. I folded it back up and put it in my pocket and it home. I stole it. Toby - You stole it.. I stole that sin and needless to say that was my little secret thing but there again I didn't you know I didn't discuss it with anybody really and to tell you the honest truth my parents were not they they you know as time went by of course you have revealed eventually you know they've put 9 �two and two together were they happy about it no no they weren't happy and there was a point in time where I finally said you know, you can't deal with this and I don't want to deal with you either. I, for my own purpose reasons, I moved to Tulsa. My sister said, you know, leave home, come to Tulsa. I was 19 and I moved to Tulsa. got a job. I went over and I moved into a place called Harvard Terrace Apartments around 21st and Harvard. I lived my own life and I didn't speak to my folks for over a year. It was a ridiculous thing to do because I was a very sheltered individual. I didn't know how to pay bills. I didn't know where you paid the water bill, the gas bill, blah, blah. Eventually lost the apartment, ended up homeless and still wouldn't go home. Still wouldn't go home. Lived in my car and then one day out of the blue I happened to see my parents. I was basically starving now. I had been doing drag all along. I had been doing drag here in Tulsa. I started in 1979 and but things weren't going great and being hungry as I was, I saw my mother dad drive down the street one day in their car and I thought, I'm going to go home, I'm tired, I'm starving, I'm going to go home and went home for two or three years, about three years and tried to live the life that I thought that's who they wanted me to be and then realized you just can't do it. You have to be who you are. You can't let somebody subjugate you into being somebody that you're not. And finally at the age of about 23 or 24, I came back to Tulsa. Toby - during that time had they resolved it that they come to accept that you were Well, a way, my mother once asked me, she said, you know, she said, I don't understand. She said, can't you just, you know, it's fine. That's your attraction is to men, but do you have to participate in that? Can't you just go over to the, you know, just stop it? And I said, mother, it's who you are. I said, you can't go off and you just, can't turn it off like a light switch at the wall. You can't just stop being who you are. It's who I am. I was born this way. You have to accept that. they did do it in time. But the real catalyst of the whole thing was when I was 26, I met an individual by the name of Larry Guz, who was my first long-term relationship. And he said, Kent, you've 10 �got to stop this. You've got to confront this. You've got to make them understand. If they can't love you for what you are, then they have to love you for who you are. And if they can't do that, they don't need you anyway. Toby – I want our audience to see a picture of your beautiful mom and dad. And they finally, my dad came to Larry and I and he finally said, if this is who you are, this is who you are and we accept you 150%. So that kind of, took a long, time, but they finally did. Toby - So, you're very. well known in Tulsa as Anita Richards. So I want us to kind to talk, begin to talk about your career as a performer. You said, you told us earlier that in 1979, and you would have been 19 years old, you already had started doing performance. Did you? How did you? How did come about that? I had never even heard of a drag queen. I didn't know there was any avenue that a guy could dress in female attire in public. I had no idea. From the time I was eight years old, was out in my mother's and dad's garage with a record player lip syncing to Funny Girl. I learned the lyrics to Don't Rain On My Parade before I could practically walk. I knew automatically and of course my parents thought I was nuts. You're hearing this kid who's out doing these big jaw long jams. So I knew that was something I wanted to do but I didn't know there was an avenue for it until one night there was a very fabulous nightclub here in Tulsa across the street from what is now TCC called Caruso's. And it had been there since the 1950s. It was a very sophisticated nightclub in the 50s called the Queen of Hearts. But by the time I came along, it had become a gay bar and was called Caruso's and it had a huge showroom that held about 250 people. And one night a young boy that I was dating said, let's go to Caruso's. He said, I'm going to sneak you in. He said, a friend of mine is performing on stage and needs a shirt from me. I'm gonna sneak you in and you sit in the back and I'm gonna go to the dressing room and give him the shirt and I'll come back and we'll watch 11 �his number and then we'll leave and get out of here before we get caught. So this boy, the gentleman performing his name was Samoy Alexander and he went by the name of Tracy Chateau, I'll never forget him. And he came out on stage, he was doing a song called The Deputy of Love and my friend brought him this western shirt covered with silver fringe and I saw Tracy come out and perform and I was like... Oh my Lord, can't, I want to do this, I want to do this. And the next individual that came out, I'll never forget it, was Trudy Tyler, who was, at that time, it was so funny, I was 19, Trudy was 21 and was already in Miss Gay Oklahoma of America. And when she came out on stage, it was a complete vision, I was just, it raptured. And I thought, this is something I'm going to do one of these days. So I... went back to work at Target and one Christmas we got some glittering ladies clothes and I saved up some money and bought a dress and the next thing you know I went to What Is Now the Eagle. This was 1979 mind you. I went to What Is Now the Eagle at that time it was Tracy's New Edition was what it was called and they had show nights, amateur nights on Monday and there was an intimate Queen there and I went in and brought a record and performed. My initial name was Anita Trick. And how that came by, I was standing there, the show director at that time, Tracy's was another very well-known Queen here in town, by the name of Miko Kassadine. to Miko Kassadine, she said, what's your name honey? And I said, My name's Kent. She said, no, what's your show name? And I said, I don't have one. She said, you have two entertainers ahead of you. You better find one, get one quickly so I can introduce you. And I'm standing there thinking, now, know, no one had checked IDs in those days. And here I am, this kid, I'm standing here thinking, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? And a guy walked by me, he said, my God, I need a drink. And I turned around and I looked at me, and I said, my name's I Need a Trick. Well, she said, what? I said, my name's, I need a drink well she immediately thought I said Anita like Anita Bryant and she did introduce me on stage as Anita Trick and that was the first performance I ever did and so every time the Eagle holds much nostalgia for me you know but that anyway that started it out. Toby - You were talking about the performance in those days, this would have been in 1979. You get a record, you had to give them a… 12 �Yeah, you know cassette, no cassettes no CDs. The well-known Queens here in Tulsa they had these large leather cases and you put your record albums in the leather cases and they had a long strap you put the strap on the side of your shoulder carried it in with your luggage and the funny thing about 45 some odd years later Chris Cole and I were working at the Bamboo and someone came up with the grand idea that they wanted to do an old-fashioned drag show and they asked they said let's do this with albums, no cassettes, no CDs, let all the performers bring record albums. And so we had a little cast put together and the young people all agreed to it. They all said, we'll go out, we'll go research and go to the record stores and we'll find record albums and so forth. Which they did. And another gentleman who was one of the people that came to Bamboo brought a portable turntable sound system, which we used. But the funny thing about it was, in the days when those shows were done, Chris and I never were responsible for putting the show together. We were never responsible for the lineup of the entertainers and so forth. And you know that night we had 15 entertainers. Every single entertainer was doing three songs a piece. Every single song was on a specific album, so we're dealing with 45 record albums and having to label them and put them and I looked at Chris and I said it didn't use it was not this hard when we were kids. She said we were responsible for this movie. Well, didn't know any different. No, no, no, that's all we did. Toby – You talked about Caruso's, talked about Queen of Hearts, E-Ball, Tracy's. Tell us some of the other clubs where you performed. Oh, was some of them were clubs, some of them were dives. There was one downtown called Friends Lounge. I don't know if you remember, if you probably don't remember that. There was one... Well, the main club in those days, the very first bar that I was supposed to go to attend, we had a huge club here in Tulsa called the Old Plantation. You remember Old Plantation? And the very night I was supposed Where was it? I can't remember. It was 51st and Sheridan. The night I was supposed to go to the Plantation, one of the patrons set it on fire and burned it to the ground. So I didn't get to attend that club, but so the next largest club that everyone wanted to 13 �entertain at besides Caruso’s downtown was Zippers at 32nd and S. Yale. And that's predominantly where I started really, really entertaining was in Zippers. John Willis who owned Zippers was a very good friend of mine. It was a gay bar. It was a big disco. It held probably a hundred and maybe a hundred and fifty people. And I performed there for quite a while until they brought in a door lady and her name was Patty Murray Handley. And we all know Patty very dearly. And it was her first job. And I walked in with my suitcase one day for a performance and she said, I need to see your ID. And I of course automatically knew I'm 20 years old. I said, well, I left it out in the car. She said, no, I need to see the ID. She said, you can't perform in here. I said, I've been performing here for over a year. She said, well, you're not going to perform in here tonight because I'm not letting you in the door. You can come back four months from now when you're 21 years old. And I had to tell everybody and I turned around and walked out. Fast forward 40 plus years, I walk into a doctor's office of Dr. Jeff Beal and I had not seen this young lady since that probably about that time. And I walk in for my doctor's appointment and she's sitting at the admissions desk. And she took one look at my name and she remembered my face. And after she checked me in, I was sitting there in the waiting room and she said, could you come over here? Could you come over here? She said do you remember me and I said well I don't think so and she explained who she was and she said I have to tell you I want to apologize she said I have thought about this for over whatever it was 35 years I have felt guilty ever since that night that I didn't allow you to come into that club and perform like you had been I was just scared if I did I'd lose my job and she said do you ever forgive me I said I wouldn't remember this if you hadn't even mentioned it but of course I did anyway. She was following the law and I told her, I you know, I don't blame you. But you should follow the law. I don't blame her one bit. Toby - Well she was following the law. We here at Oklahomans for Equality believe that... What other clubs stand out in your mind? 14 �Really those are probably the most, there was a very place, I hate to use the term seedy, that's not a very good description, but there was a place downtown called, on 11th, called The Mining Company. And I performed there a few times, but predominantly Zippers, predominantly Tracy's. Toby -Now, during this time, you were a performer. Did you ever travel to other states? Not until later. I was the first individual from the city of Tulsa to ever perform at Angles. This would have been right because I was in Oklahoma City. As I say, I performed here in Tulsa from 1979 to about 1982 and that was when I decided to move back to Tulsa, move back to with my parents, which they were living 100 miles south from here, little town called Weleetka, Oklahoma. I stayed there two years and came back and once I came back in 84, I think it was 83 or 84, I started performing again and have continued on as a regular basis ever since that time. But in 1986, Angles in Oklahoma City had opened their very first talent show you might say. It was called Drag Off or Drag Race or something like that. Anyway, I won it. And by winning it, you had to come back, was the process of elimination. And by winning it and becoming the champion, I won a two weekend a month spot on the Sunday showcase at Angles. And so ended up being the first person from the city of Tulsa ever to work there on regular basis. As Ginger Lamar referred to me, I was the queen of the Turner Turnpike. She's the only queen in town that's got tire tracks up her back. Anyway, it was a lot of fun. Toby - So I know that you have won some titles and you participated in pageants. Tell us a little bit about the pageant culture within the LGBT community. You know today it's mainstream. There's you know top-tier shows that people sit every night and watch. But I always like them. But it was not necessarily in Oklahoma, but really it was. Miss Oklahoma, the America pageant system, course, is the oldest Miss gay America is the oldest pageant system in the United States. And it was it was formed in 1972 by the late Norman Jones, Norma Christie, and has continued on. And it wasn't until about 1977 that she released the royalty rights to permit, I guess you'd say preliminary pageants to get contestants for her Miss America pageant. You had to go through and still to this day have to go through a system. You win a preliminary title. Then if you go from 15 �there that sponsors you into a state title, which of course is like say you Miss Gay Tulsa of America, then you're sponsored into Miss gay Oklahoma of America. If you win Miss gay Oklahoma of America, you immediately are responsible to represent your state at Miss America, wherever it's held, Dallas or wherever. And that's still the same. It's been since 1972 and it's still the same way. Of course, as you say, now they're much more mainstream. I really personally, for me, my personal goal was predominantly entertainment. I wasn't I was not that much interested I did miss Tulsa USA in 1987 I think I did Miss Tulsa of America probably about 1988. But I wasn't necessarily interested in entertaining in pageants because in my estimation, a title was for a year. You spent a lot of money. Sometimes you won, sometimes you didn't. And I saw very negative aspects of the pageant system that I thought I just don't need to be a part of this. There's good aspects and bad aspects of everything and I saw both. And I thought my goal is to entertain in the public. That's what I want to do. I was happy to bring a little happiness into life and into other people's lives. But it wasn't until I was 57 years old a friend of mine opened a pageant system called American National Star, an independent offshoot. I told Taylor, I said, know, I wonder if I can do this. And he said, well, why don't you start a little late? And I said, well, long as you're breathing, that's my goal. As long as you're breathing, you have a chance and you can still move and God gives you decent health, go for it. So I entered American National Star Classic and won that and of course people said some of the judges said you know what is your goal here I said to prove that no matter how old you are if there's a goal that you want to accomplish you can go for it as long as your health holds out you feel like you're physically able to do it you do it well lo and behold I won that pageant and then went on to their state title and won that too. And then, so by me doing that, I was asked by my dear friend, Brandon Patrick, aka Chanel Sterling, to at 58 years old to enter the Miss Gay Tulsa pageant. She said, have you ever been Miss Gay Tulsa? And it was a rumor from a thousand years that I was at one time a Miss Gay Tulsa, which I never had even entered the pageant except once. So I had done that. I entered Miss Gay Tulsa of America. It was majestic and came up first runner up. And then was responsible to go to Miss Oklahoma and one first 16 �run up out of 13 other kids at 59 years old and the reigning Miss Gay America walked up to me that evening and said, you are who I want to be when I grow up. And I thought that was so precious. And I am proud to say I have the highest standing score of any individual in personal interview of any Miss Oklahoma of America pageant that's ever been. And the current Miss America that year. She said, now when you go to nationals, she said, I want you to do something for me. And I said, what's that? She said, I want you to be just exactly who you are right now. Because she said, if you are, she said, they'll fall in love with you just like I have. I thought that was so sweet. Sad to say, God and nature had other plans. Because after the four day Miss Oklahoma pageant, I came down with arthritic neuropathy. And was unable to practically walk for about the next month. And so I wasn't able to attend Miss America Pageant, but things work out for the best, guess. I don't know. Anyway. Toby - Did you ever perform at Pride? Only for about 25 years. Toby - First Pride Festival. I don't know, I couldn't honestly tell you the first one I performed at, the first one that I went to was in 1993 when we were out at Mohawk Park when it was considered a... was sort of, were all sort of, people were separated. Remember, I didn't see a lot of unity out there because there were different groups sitting all around. I was glad when it finally got more unified and moved downtown. But the first Pride I ever performed at I think was about 1996. Toby - So that's the first pride you ever went to. I don't know, 1993 was the first one. Toby - Now you eventually became... Queen of Tulsa Pride. I think so. One of my proudest moments. 17 �Toby - You're still considered the… So you talked about your love of drag was you wanted to entertain I can remember you being a regular cast member at Twisted Theater at Renegades. And you were a part of the Twisted Theater with Tabitha and I can remember you were a hit as Rose on the go. You were part of the Golden Girls cast and played Rose. You remember performing at Pride Day? Yeah, that's what is the what's the park? Toby - Well today it's called Veterans Park, but at the time it was Centennial Park. That was without a doubt. we all, all of us who participated in the Twisted Theater performances consider those our happiest days. We all still talk about it. Toby - Record crowds. And Tabitha Taylor, who is now Brielle Cassell, gave me the opportunity to perform roles that I would never in my entire life had a chance to do otherwise and it was the most unique experience. we all, she stretched all of us to the full capacity that she thought we were capable of performing. And I mean, I got to do things like Betty Davis or Whatever Happened to Baby Jane, as you say, Rose in the Golden Girls, and Sissy in the Sorted Lives, and all those, we performed. Toby - I remember some beach movie. Frankie Avalon, was Frankie Avalon and the footage of Beach Blanket Bingo was one of those we did. And then Little Shop of Horrors. Basically, for those who might not understand what we're talking about, Twisted Theater was where basically they chose a film. Did a little shopping, cut out all the unnecessary subplot, kept the main storyline, and added music to accentuate the story and to move it along. The most famous one, I believe, that was ever done was The Exorcist. what the director would do, he would take out the subplot, look at the film, use music to accentuate the different part, and sometimes there would be music that didn't even have anything to do or wasn't any part of the particular film, but it still was relevant to the story itself. And that's kind of what Twisted Theater 18 �was. was like, for instance, probably one of the most famous ones was we did the Wizard of Oz. But when Dorothy came and knocked on the wizard's door, instead of the, she and the scarecrow and the cowardly lion got to Oz, instead of meeting the wizard, when she opened the door, she was confronted by by Dr. Frankenfurter from Rocky Horror Picture Show. And that particular instance, Dr. Frankenfurter happened to be me. So that's kind of what it was anyway. And it was a wonderful opportunity to perform. I don't know if we'll ever see those days again. But there have been people who have tried to copy that format. And some of them have been very successful. Probably the single most successful use of that format is is Chanel Sterling, who is without a doubt one of the single most all around talented individuals drag or otherwise I have ever known or ever met in my entire life. And a treasured treasured friend. Toby - Let's talk a little bit about your 65. So you've talked about the 1970s all the way to the present. Tell me about the first time you heard about AIDS. I was sitting in a club. I had just come back to Tulsa, as I said, in 1983, I think, 83, 84. And I was sitting in a club and a former boyfriend of mine came in and sat down. He had just come back from New York and we got acquainted and we began to visit. And I said, how was New York, Dean? And it was Dean Martin. He said, oh, kid, he said, it's horrifying. I said, horrifying? What are you talking about? He said, there's something going on there. They call it gay cancer. I said, gay cancer? What do you mean? He said, it's a disease. He said, it's killing people just right and left. He said, you'll see someone out at a bar on a Monday and they'll be gone by Thursday. And he said, it's it's unexplainable. And I never heard of it. I didn't know what it was. didn't know. I didn't understand that it was how it was transmitted and so forth. The first person in Tulsa that ever passed away that was the first person that anyone knew about that came in contact with HIV and passed away from the disease was a young man by the name of Paul Pack, who was a bartender at a club downtown called Tim's Playroom owned by... was Tim Turner, Tim Turner. And his lover was a very well-known female 19 �impersonator here in Tulsa, she was Shawna Michaels. And all we knew was that Paul got very sick and he was the first person that anyone had ever heard of that had, was Kaposi Sarcoma. And we all knew that he had... away, well automatically that kind of put a face to the situation here in Tulsa specifically. And we didn't, any of us, know, you know, what it was, how we basically came in contact with it. And we knew how it was transmitted, of course, but we didn't know the ins or outs of the disease. everyone automatically started getting tested. And I remember the very first test that I ever took was in 1986. I was 26 years old. I was terrified, absolutely terrified. And the health department. Toby – That’s where you took that test? And once they found out what you were in there, they treated you like what you were there for… they treated you like basically you were a vermin, you know, and you're just non-human. And as time went by, after, by 1987, I was with, as I said, my other half, Larry, who was a patient of Dr. Jeff Beal. And Jeff was the first medical physician that I'd ever come in contact who knew what was going on. And he basically held meetings and tried to explain to people the severity of what was happening and how there needed to be funding for research and so forth. And was very much on the forefront of that. And we realized then the enormity of the situation we were in. And the very first time, I will tell you. I didn't think I was going to get emotional about this. The first time I ever was confronted with it completely. I was at a pride celebration on the campus of the University of California in Irvine. And they had brought the AIDS quilt to the campus and they put it in the Student Union and it was in different levels of the Student Union. So they divided it up so that you could go and see it. And I was a member of the court system in California, in Orange County at that time and I was there with one of their booths. And I left during a break and I went to the Student Union and walked through and I can tell you that I don't normally get emotional in public. I'm not that kind of an individual. But when I was confronted with those faces and with the, all the, just the whole enormity of the quilt itself, I just fell into pieces. The next thing I knew, they were picking me up off the floor and handing me a box of Kleenex. And I kept saying, I'm so sorry. I said, no. Toby - Do you remember what year that was? 20 �19, let's see, I moved to California in November of 1988. So this would have been about 1990. And it was just, you know, it just hit you directly in the face. But I... After I came back to Tulsa in 92, I lost a number of friends, personal friends that passed away with AIDS. And like we were talking about on the phone last night, one of the individuals was 33 years old. And he had come in contact with it through the first sexual partner that he had ever physically been with and had been dealing with the disease from the time he was 20 until he was 33. And he was a patient of Dr. Beal’s. And I remember him saying to me, he said, I don't understand it. said, you know, you, I haven't lived any different life than you have. You and I, we've had the same experiences. Why am I in this situation that you're not? And I truthfully didn't. I said, Michael, I don't know. I don't know. But I said, all I know is I want to help you as much as I possibly can. And I watched that poor young thing, young man, 33 years old, pass away, the most horrific death I've ever seen in my life. And you just, and I struggled with the guilt. You do, you can't help it. Because you think, how did this get me? And all I can say is that I think I have been put here for a purpose. Obviously there must be some reason or another or otherwise it would have been I would have been in the same situation and the only thing that I could do in help with him there was a doctor here in town the name of Ralph Richter who was participating in a study through a company called VaxGen and a doctor had developed what he said was a vaccination for the AIDS virus. And they were doing a blind test study through this doctor's office and I participated in it. And they basically, they gave you shots of the synthetic antibodies, basically what they were. You didn't know whether you were getting the placebo or whether you were getting the vaccination itself. There was a series of 10 shots that she took once a month, 10 months. Midway through, I began to start getting ferocious colds and illnesses and coming up with all kinds of strange bruises and so forth. I finally asked one of the medical people in his office, said, how does my body know that what you're and you couldn't tell have an AIDS test because if you did you automatically came up positive. Anyway I asked the nurse, I said how does my body know that I'm not getting the actual antibodies? I said how does my body know that it's 21 �synthetic? And she really couldn't answer so I quit participating. And about four months later right before the study was over with they explained to me they said you know we were just getting ready to close we wish that you would come back and continue this and I went ahead and did it. I went ahead and finished the test honey and lo and behold After it was all over they sent me notification that I hadn't been given the vaccination Now what was sad about that? One of the reasons that I quit was I didn't know at the time that this shot these inoculations were $900 apiece and I asked the Representatives of the company that were in the doctor's office. I said what makes you think that any young gay individual walking down the street is going to have $900 or basically $9,000 on 10 shots to be able to afford this. They can't do it. I said, how many insurance companies are going to sponsor this? Well, they had no, you know, they had no response to that really. Anyway, lo and behold, of the gentleman who invented the vaccination to try to get the American Medical Association to approve it. He was a doctor of course who dealt with aged patients. He took the blood samples, drew blood from his most terminally ill patient and transfused the blood into him, so the contaminated blood into his own body. And he never came up with the disease. And he tried to present that as a case to the AMA that for sure that this vaccination actually did work and they still refused to approve it. So it was all that trouble for nothing basically. Toby - I can remember you helping us raise money to buy this building. You would perform at some of the big events that we would have. I can remember you and Chris Cole performing at the old Brady Mansion on Denver. That was such a unique experience to come down those stairs and see all those people at the foot of it made you feel quite like a celebrity. Toby - What about, let's, you and Taylor were able to be legally married. I want to share your picture. And y'all got married in drag. He was still, he was the guest speaker that year 2014, November 2014 at the transgender day of remembrance. We had been together by this time three years. And as you all know, we had gone through our first initial commitment ceremony here, but I knew that he was scheduled to go up to Oklahoma City tonspeak at that organizational meeting. And he was 22 �involved at that time with the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, which that organization. And he was very good friends of the individual who officiated our ceremony, who had gone through a minister, what's the correct term? Toby - A minister ordination. And that gentleman, the clinic, called me one day and he said, I have to tell you something. And he said, I think you should know. I said, what's that? He said, Taylor is preparing to surprise you with something. And I said, what's he going to surprise me with? He said he's bought a ring and he intends to propose marriage to you after he gets done with his speech at the organization meeting. And he said, I want to know, are you going to say yes because we've got to buy license. We've got to get everything together beforehand. We just can't throw away, have a ceremony. We need to do all this legally and I want to get it all prepared. I was quite frankly aghast. I didn't know what to say. Because the idea of being legally married had never really entered my mind. But I got to thinking personally about the situation and I thought this is this way I know that he is taken care of. I said, I know he's going to be taken care of, that there's nobody in my family that can come in and take anything away from him. That if it's all legally shared together. So I thought this is probably the best thing we can do for each other. And so he didn't know I knew anything about what was going to happen. So after he got done making his speech, he said, now I want to bring my other half up to, we were all outside with the candlelight ceremony. then I came up and he got down on his hands and knees, or she, she I should say, she got down on her hands and knees at that time and proposed. And I said, of course, yes. Well, we went into the building we were all attending this meeting. And Robin Dorner was the president of the gala, she'd already gone and bought the wedding cake and the whole nine yards had the license and everything there. The funny situation about it was we were standing on a platform about as high as this table when we to officiate the ceremony and go through the nuptials and when Clint said, 23 �do you, take this individual to be your lawfully wedded spouse to have and to hold until you part? When he had gotten aware of the situation it hit point blank in his face and he fainted. I was standing there. I watched his eyes roll, her eyes as I said she was a drag. I watched her eyes roll completely back on her head, turned snow white and started to fall. And I just grabbed her by the hand and jerked her back. He came back and I asked him, I said, what happened. He said, because I realized that this was for real, for real. This was this was going to be the lasting thing. There was no turning back, you know, the enormity of the situation. He looked me square in the face and he said, I'm glad we did it My father bless his heart. I loved him so dearly. He, when Taylor decided to become transgender or thought she was transgender. I didn't think I was going get emotional. My mother had left a pair of earrings on the table. And he had lived at this table all the time. My mother had been gone about a year. Excuse me, I can't believe this. This is crazy. She'd been gone about a year. And I didn't know what he thought about Taylor all of a sudden assuming a female identity, which he hadn't been when he came here. Because as everyone does when you're transgender you have to spend a year living in you know in your chosen attire what she was doing at the time and My dad walked over and he took the earrings off this table and he put them in Taylor's open hand And he said Mrs. Harold would be proud of you for having the courage to be who you feel that you really are. And he said, nobody can take that away from you. And that to me was just unbelievable. As time went on, Taylor decided that wasn't who he actually truthfully thought he was. Who he thought he was wasn't who he was anyway. But it was a situation that my dad did that. And I will tell you that when my father passed away, it affected Taylor almost more than it did me because he was, for the first time, had been totally accepted 100 % in that world. I had a very, very, very unique set of parents. Toby - This has been wonderful. Is there anything else you would like to say before we close out this interview? A message you might give to generations who come after you and watch this video. 24 �Be who you are. Don't let anybody, don't let anybody try to hold you down and try to make you who you aren't. You only have one chance at life and the thing you have to do with that one chance is to make the most of it as you possibly can and that's being true to yourself. That's the main goal in life is to always be true to yourself. Toby - One more time for the camera, your full legal name. Kent Wilson Harrell. Jr. 25 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Kent Harrell Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcription of Toby Jenkin’s December 23, 2025, interview. The interview explores his life and experiences focusing on his journey through early life, family dynamics, understanding his sexual orientation, and his career in drag performance. Kent shares insights into the challenges faced by the LGBT community, particularly during the AIDS crisis, and reflects on his personal relationships, including his marriage to Taylor. The discussion emphasizes the importance of being true to oneself and offers advice for future generations. Subject The topic of the resource Kent Harrell Oral History Project Interview Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kent Harrell, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 23, 2025 2025 AIDS AIDS/HIV Dennis Neill HIV HIV/AIDs interview Kent Harrell OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Toby Jenkins transcript video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2021] John-WaKo Hawk Co-Cke' Interview Subject The topic of the resource John-WaKo Hawk Co-Cke' OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Interview from March 18, 2021 Description An account of the resource John was interviewed on March 18, 2021, by Oklahoma State University as part of its Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project. In the interview, John discusses his involvement in the LGBT community and as a two-spirit leader and elder at Oklahomans for Equality and for the Muscogee Nation Behavioral Health. <strong>A copy of the OSU transcript is on file at the History Project Archives at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John-WaKo Hawk Co-Cke', Arlowe Clementine, Matthew D. Williams, Micki White, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 18, 2021 2021 Arlowe Clementine available at Center Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project interview John-WaKo Hawk Co-Cke' Matthew D. Williams Micki White Muscogee Nation Muscogee Nation Behavioral Health Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahoma State University Archives oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU OSU Archives OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project OSU Oral History Project transcript two spirit two-spirit Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2004] Bob Inglish Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 30, 2004 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on January 30, 2004. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research</strong><strong>.</strong> Bob grew Okmulgee, Oklahoma. He attended Oklahoma State University and received a law degree from the University of Oklahoma. While at OU, he came “out.” He returned to Okmulgee and entered into a law practice with his father. Although practicing in Okmulgee, Bob lived in Tulsa, where he realized in the late 1970s that the gay life was almost solely centered on the bars. With Dennis Neill, Mike Green, Gary Durst and others, in 1980 they became the Tulsa Chapter of Oklahomans for Human Rights, which was formed around 1977 in Oklahoma City. Bob served as the first treasurer of OHR. The early focus of OHR was to provide social and educational opportunities to the LGBTQ community in addition to the bars. In 1985, the organization became its own nonprofit under the name of Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. Bob highlights the early challenge of engaging with the lesbian community to broaden OHR and TOHR’s outreach. He discusses the origins of the Harwelden Party which began in 1980, and the Black and White Party held for 10 years in the 1980s. He talks about his involvement with the ACLU and Tulsa’s and TOHR’s response to the AIDS crisis. Subject The topic of the resource Bob Inglish Oral History Project Interview from January 30, 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bob Inglish, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2004 ACLU AIDS AIDS/HIV available at Center Black and White Gala Black and White Party Bob Inglish Dennis Neill Gary Durst Harwelden Party HIV/AIDs interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Mike Green OHR OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahomans for Human Rights Oklahomans for Human Rights - Tulsa Chapter oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU OU TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) University of Oklahoma University of Oklahoma (OU) video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/0982d06f9a2f92fbf7fe2f9136d901e2.mp4 a9de7829384dba075a9196f77cfcdd6e https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/ad0d0594064e8fa1c25d3be91a009043.pdf 162b575cf68ca5c82dd758b4c47c8b4e PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Bob Inglish, Mike Green and Dennis Neill Interview Conducted by Kerry Lewis Date: May 5, 2003 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video, March 14, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �Discover the early days of Tulsa's LGBTQ+ activism through the personal stories of key founders. This episode explores how the community built a social, legal, and health infrastructure amidst societal resistance and growing awareness of HIV/AIDS. Main Topics Covered:         Origins of TOHR and OHR in Tulsa (1980s) Community challenges and societal attitudes Formation of advocacy, social, and health programs The role of gay bars and underground networks Personal experiences of coming out and safety concerns The impact of HIV/AIDS on community activism Milestones: First events, legal battles, and social acceptance Resources and support organizations then and now Timestamps: 00:00 - Introduction to Tulsa's LGBTQ+ activist roots 00:34 - Personal backgrounds of Dennis, Bob, Mike 01:12 - How and when the community organized in Tulsa 02:06 - Early social hubs: Bars and clandestine meetings 03:04 - Challenges and societal perceptions in 1980s Tulsa 04:16 - Community safety and personal disclosures 05:55 - Formation of Tulsa's LGBTQ+ advocacy group 06:57 - Establishing social activities and their significance 08:14 - National awareness and influence from outside Tulsa 09:55 - The community's response to Stonewall and pride events 10:53 - Visibility and openness issues in the community 12:06 - Overcoming societal fears and the early fight for rights 13:31 - Personal safety, coming out, and legal discrimination 15:07 - Attitudes toward the LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa 16:00 - The role of community support and opposition 17:23 - The importance of social activities beyond bars 2 �18:53 - Early efforts in education and health services 19:55 - Community milestones: Growth and societal change 21:20 - Encountering hate, violence, and the bravery to stand out 23:52 - The significance of making history and feeling of impact 25:09 - Responding to societal prejudice and the evolution of acceptance 26:30 - The pioneering moments during the AIDS crisis 28:01 - Community outreach, resources, and forming alliances 29:49 - Reflections on why OHR and TOHR were critical 31:19 - The influence of legal, social, and cultural shifts 32:45 - Social programs: Sports, dances, and community events 34:27 - Responding to the AIDS epidemic: education and activism 36:44 - Community response to initial activism efforts 38:24 - Internal community conflicts and how they evolved 40:34 - The importance of social support and combating loneliness 42:14 - Fundraising events, health clinics, and advocacy work 44:40 - Building social networks and the importance of social activities 48:55 - The community's response to HIV/AIDS and health initiatives 50:04 - Early reactions to AIDS in Tulsa and community education 52:01 - How epidemic shifted community behaviors and perceptions 54:11 - Ongoing issues: Safe sex, relationships, and legal protections 56:34 - The cultural significance of marriage and family for gay Oklahomans 57:23 - The continued evolution of community activism and health issues Bob Inglish, Mike Green, Dennis Neill oral history interview May 5, 2003 Kerry Lewis: Hi, I'm Kerry Lewis. I'm with the TOHR's Gay History Project. I'm here today on May 4th interviewing Dennis Neill, Bob Inglish, and Mike Green. They are three of the original organizers of TOHR in the early years, and so we're going to begin by talking to them a little bit about who they are and then also how OHR and TOHR began. Well, good afternoon. What I'd like to do is to begin by asking you a little bit about who you are and what you do and things like that. So we'll start with you, Dennis. Dennis, if you wouldn't mind, let us know when you were born. Dennis Neill: I was born on March 18, 1952. Kerry Lewis: And that makes you? Dennis Neill: I'm 51. Kerry Lewis: You're 51 years old. And have you always been from Tulsa? Dennis Neill: I was born in Ponca City and then went to school at Stillwater and University of Texas Law School. Kerry Lewis: And then did you move to Tulsa after that? Dennis Neill: Right. Dennis Neill: About what year was that? Dennis Neill: In May of 1977, I joined the law firm of Conner and Winters. 3 �Kerry Lewis: And you are and have been single and you have no children? Dennis Neill: Well, I have a partner, but I do have no children. That's correct. Kerry Lewis: And your profession? Dennis Neill: Well, I'm a lawyer by training, but have responsibility for the technology and office assets of Samson Investment Company, an oil and gas company headquartered in Tulsa. Kerry Lewis: We'll probably go back in a minute and ask you more about what you were doing at the time, the OHR beginning, et cetera. But I'll probably just move on now to Bob. Bob, could you give me your date of birth and how old you are? Bob Inglish: 1954, 49. I grew up in Okmulgee and practiced law there out of school and still do. But I've always lived in Tulsa since getting out of school. Kerry Lewis: And Mike? Mike Green: I was born June 25, 1932. Born right here in Tulsa. And I grew up in Tulsa, graduated Central High School, went to OU, got my BA there. And then went in the Army, spent two years in the military. Married while I was in the military, met my colleague, sweetheart. And we had two children. And returned to Tulsa when I got out of the Army. Was here for about a couple of years with my brother in the oil field supply business. And then went to Waterloo, Iowa, where I worked with my father-in-law in the retail clothing business. From there I went to Tempe, Arizona, where I went to school and studied writing, creative writing. Then returned to Tulsa, once again in the oil field supply business, for about five years. Then went to night Law School and started practicing law in 1966. Retired one year ago and moved to Palm Springs with my partner. By the way, I got divorced. Kerry Lewis: My understanding from your answer is that back in, say, 1980, in that time period, you were practicing law. You were in private practice? Mike Green: In private practice. Kerry Lewis: What kind of law did you practice? Mike Green: I always say general practice. When I first started practicing law, I was one of the three Tulsa County public defenders that was appointed. I did that for a couple of years. I always did a lot of criminal work, did domestic work, personal injury work, just general practice. Kerry Lewis: And were you working at that time with a firm or individually? Mike Green: There were three of us that did form a firm, but it was back in the 70s. That was for about five years. So I think I was probably by myself at the time in the 80s. Kerry Lewis: What about you, Bob? Say, around 1979, 80, in that time period, what was your profession like at that time? Or what did you do at that time? 4 �Bob Inglish: Well, I practiced in Okmulgee, which is a town of 14,000 people. At that time, the oil boom was in full force. I did a lot of oil and gas work. I always did a lot of probate work, real estate work. And, of course, in a small town, you do a lot of things, but that was primary emphasis. Kerry Lewis: And Dennis, in 1980, what were you doing? Dennis Neill: I was a third-year associate at a firm of about 30 attorneys, and I was spending a lot of my time working with the securities partners on oil and gas and real estate securities offerings. Kerry Lewis: Do you have any recollection of when you first met, the three of you, back in the, I'm assuming, the late 70s? Do you have any recollection of how that occurred? Mike Green: I met Dennis. There were three of us that had a bar in Central Plaza. It was part-time, it wasn't our day jobs. And we did it for fun at nighttime, and Dennis was living there, and Dennis would come in and sit there and have drinks and smoke cigars every time. That's how I met Dennis. I think I met Bob, I think Bob actually lived in Center Plaza for a while. Bob Inglish: Yeah, I did, I didn't make that connection. Mike Green: And that's when we first met. Kerry Lewis: And that was well before TOHR, OHR began? Mike Green: A few years, I would say, before that, about many years before. Bob Inglish: Well, of course, I was out of law school in 79 and TOHR started when? Dennis Neill: 80. Bob Inglish: 80, yeah, yeah. I think I met Dennis, like, at Zippers, and it wasn't, you know, the next week there was supposed to be a meeting at his house to come to. That's how I remember that, so. Kerry Lewis: Do you remember when the first time the discussion came up about we need to form or have some sort of an organization like OHR? For right now, it's limited to OHR. I understand there may have been some stuff going on before that, but do you remember how that first came up? Dennis Neill: Well, I remember talking with, I think, probably both of you at Zippers one night. I definitely recall, at least visiting with you, Bob, didn't I, at Zippers, and we were talking about the concept of having an organization. And I don't know if Mike and I kind of met separate on that issue or not, but very quickly we kind of got together with the four of us that became the first officers, including Gary Durst, and very quickly started meeting in some homes and laying out some thought processes, given the stimulus that we had from the Oklahoma City organization that had formed a few years before. Bob Inglish: There were probably about 10 or 15 people at that first meeting, I remember, at Dennis' house. And of course, one thing that seemed unique then that 5 �may seem peculiar now is that it's very important to have the support of the bar owners, because that was the center of gay life. And I remember John Willis was there, and Tim was there from Tim's playroom, and whatever, and there was... Mike Green: I think Jim Smith, too. Bob Inglish: Jim Smith. Kerry Lewis: How many, just to give us today a little bit of an idea, how many bars did you estimate were around back in 1980 that were kind of gay or gay-friendly bars in Tulsa? Bob Inglish: Well, there was Zippers, there was Tim's, and then there was the, wasn't there a trio of bars downtown? Mike Green: Right, the Taj Mahal and the Zebra. Bob Inglish: Zebra, which is awful. And the Queen of Hearts. Mike Green: Yes, and then what was the other, the disco down the street from the Queen of Hearts? In fact, it was the first disco in Tulsa, and it was so popular, the straights began coming to it. Took it over? Well, yeah, we put up a good fight. So it didn't ever really become a straight bar, but in fact, one of the owners was straight, and the other two were gay. Bob Inglish: But there wasn't anything about gay life, from a congregation standpoint, except the bars. Mike Green: Right. Bob Inglish: I mean, there wasn't a supportive church, there wasn't a non-profit group, there wasn't a group of common interests. It was just, if you were gay and you wanted to see people, you went to a bar. Kerry Lewis: Were you three, at that time, aware of nationally what was going on with the gay community? Were you aware that there were some organizations outside of Tulsa and Oklahoma that did something like this, or just, what was your level of knowledge as far as what else was going on as a whole as far as the gay community at that time? Mike Green: I'm not real certain of the time period, or the time frame, I should say, but I do remember that my practice had kind of taken a turn while I was doing an awful lot of gay work, representing people, gay people in divorces, both men and women, in criminal matters and other things like that. And I remember getting contacted by Lambda and some other organizations nationwide as to the work I was doing and wanting to assist and even pay some clients fees. They couldn't afford the fees themselves. Bob Inglish: Well, you certainly could take the Advocate to keep in contact with what was going on nationally. I think several of us were well-traveled and certainly at that point in time, the Castro area in San Francisco had developed and Greenwich Village had developed, so if you traveled any, you were certainly aware that there was a lot going on in the gay movement. Certainly, I had just come from OU and there was a lot of activity as far as gay student groups getting started at the 6 �university that was well publicized and so everything was in its early stages, but there was things going on that we were aware of here in Oklahoma. Mike Green: When was Stonewall? Bob Inglish: 1969. Mike Green: I'd ask that because I remember Gary Durst was there in New York when Stonewall occurred. I remember Gary telling me that he thought it was just another night out in New York City when it happened. He had no idea what was going on. Kerry Lewis: Well, at that time, did cities tend to have big pride-type activities like pride parades and festivals? Dennis Neill: Not locally at all. I think we saw some of the flamboyant stuff probably occurring in San Francisco and New York that you see on TV, but this was certainly pre-internet, pre-email, so you looked more for these static publications rather than the wealth of resources that you can have today with regard to knowing what other community centers are doing throughout the U.S. or what's going on with the gay and lesbian movement in other locales. It was a little more difficult, but there were a couple of reliable, viable sources of information. Kerry Lewis: How out were you in your personal lives at that time when you decided to be involved with organizing OHR, the Tulsa chapter of OHR? Were you fairly open with being gay to your family and friends at that time? Dennis Neill: Well, I was with my sister, but I wasn't particularly out with my parents, although I think they were aware. I do remember approaching a new junior partner at the law firm as we were first contemplating formation of TOHR and asking him if he thought I should go to the partners meeting and explain my activities with the gay community in Tulsa. He gave me the wise thought that really that was probably the focus of the partners meeting, that maybe if it was important for civil rights issues to go ahead and pursue it, but not really a need to visit with the law firm at this stage. So that was probably the right discussion because that was in 1980 and even that firm, that would have been the first gay individual that they would have had to deal with. It was probably better for them to get it more down the road after things got informed and in a little bit better shape than probably at that point in time. Bob Inglish: I think contextually you'd have to remember that when you talk about the gay movement coming into its own, that the Castro area in San Francisco or the Greenwich Village in New York City probably started developing as a gay center in 74 or 76. So we're talking about Tulsa in 1979 and 1980. We're certainly not the Castro area and we're certainly not Greenwich Village. The movement was fairly recent and the concept of people being openly gay and out and having activities as a gay community was still pretty new in other cities other than major metropolitan areas. I would think that we might have had an exuberance about starting the organization, but you weren't aware of roadblocks at the time until you tried things. You didn't necessarily know that doors were going to be shut until you tried things. Or tried a case, Mike, I would guess. You didn't necessarily know that there might be prejudice or confrontation as you tried things. 7 �Mike Green: I think I divorced in 66 and I had two children, like I said earlier. They were born I think in 58 and 60. And I never actually came out and told my family I was gay. I never came out and told my kids I was gay. They told me and they told my ex-wife who was very, very receptive and we're still very, very close to this date. But when TOHR was being formed, by that time my practice had become I'd say at least 50-60% gay. And as far as the community, the outside community was concerned, I grew up sitting in maybe four or five gay bars. And we had the liquor problems back in those days and there were a lot of liquor busts. And they got used to when they would bust a bar and take the owners in or the bartenders in, they would expect Mike Green to show up within a few minutes to get them out. And so my name was becoming associated with gay issues. And I realized too, some other attorneys learned I was gay and I never seemed to have a problem with it because of their knowledge. Kerry Lewis: And that kind of leads me on to my next question. I mean, what is your evaluation or your sense of the climate in Tulsa at that time as far as their attitudes towards gays and lesbians? Mike Green: I think it was negative. I really do. I don't think the people were educated, and I think they were fearful of the, quote, gay political agenda. And Tulsa had become a very, we used to call it the buckle of the Bible belt. And it was not at all, I don't think, gay friendly. But because they had not been exposed to that kind of lifestyle that we were going to try and present to them later on. And I know in some of the court situations I had, just the mere fact that you were a lesbian or you were a homosexual male would mean you were unqualified to have custody of your children. And I had problems in visitation issues even, where if you had a partner, that partner could not be in the home when the children came to visit. And it was just presumed that if you were gay or a lesbian and you had a partner, same sex partner, that you were doing something that was not presentable to the children. Kerry Lewis: And I'll ask the same question to you, too, in a second. But just as a follow up question to you, Mike, did you ever have a sense of risk as far as your personal safety or your personal status? Mike Green: Not my safety, no. Personal status, yes. I was concerned at times. I had a lot of clients who I'm not sure how receptive they would have been to knowing that I was gay. And also, I had two children I was supporting, and a son I was sending through college. Kerry Lewis: Bob, do you have any differing views on how Tulsa was as far as its perception of gay people? Bob Inglish: I don't think I would disagree, but you also have to remember where gay people were. I mean, I laugh at some of the things. You know, I remember, you know, you would dress a certain way. I mean, gay life was very clandestine, even for people who were out. And by out, I mean, they might go to gay bars or they might consider themselves homosexual and admit that personally and not have a problem with it. But, you know, if you were wanting to meet other homosexuals, you might dress a certain way. I mean, it went through trends. You might dress, have an IZOD t-shirt. How many IZOD shirts did you have? But that was... 8 �Dennis Neill: Are they out of style? Bob Inglish: They're back in, I think. But you would wear, you might wear an IZOD shirt and your jeans, and jeans, your hair might be cut short. And that was like a universal symbol. Or there was an absurd fashion statement where you flipped your collar up in the back for a while, which really looked dumb. But it was a, that was a signal to people that you were gay. And then you also had this feeling if you were like in an airport or you were at a store or something and, you know, you would see somebody and maybe detect that, some of those universal symbols that you go, wow, I mean, here's another gay person, like, oh, wow, you know. And of course, I think people were very sexually promiscuous then simply from a repression standpoint, they had been repressed for so long and there was such a exuberance about accepting the fact that you were gay that, you know, you might meet someone and you'd go, oh, you're gay, you know, maybe this is going to be a sexual encounter because, you know, you weren't going to meet gay people in another way. And so, you know, yeah, Tulsa had a feeling, you know, I think all of us perceive that to be negative, but gay people were not out and open and comfortable like they are today. I mean, you know, that was 24 years, 24 years ago, is that right? 23, yeah. So it was very different. Kerry Lewis: What about your sense of personal safety, your sense of status? You're just coming out of law school, or a few years out of law school. Did you have any, were you conscious of what the effect might be on your life and your career by being open or being part of a group like this? Bob Inglish: I don't really know that I was, but I think there was always some discretion that was involved. I mean, you just, you know, for example, now, if I interview a secretary or something at work, you know, I might say, I just want you to know I'm gay and, you know, I hope you don't have a problem with it, perhaps. You know, back then, I wouldn't have that discussion. You know, I mean, you wouldn't think about having that discussion. I was always out to my parents, but as far as, at least, you know, Okmulgee being very open, I don't think that I was. I never hid anything. I never dated, you know, a girl to give some kind of cover, but I never, but I don't know how particularly open I was. I had a pretty convenient out that I could drive back to Tulsa and be in a larger city and have that little bit of protection, but I don't think I ever had much fear for adverse consequences, and I think early on, I knew that it wasn't worth the sacrifice. I fortunately had counseling whenever I came out and had a pretty good, firm feeling that being openly gay was not an option, but an essential character. You know, something was very essential to one's well-being, and if something adverse had happened, I think I knew that I had other options, and perhaps there were areas of the country where you could go live, where you could be accepted. I mean, you could move to San Francisco. You could move to New York. You didn't have to stay here if you didn't want to. Kerry Lewis: So what were your perceptions of the climate in Tulsa with regard to gays and lesbians? Dennis Neill: Well, I felt we were definitely on the frontier here, and, you know, it was a time of contrast, too, because there were certainly some very supportive institutions. All Souls Unitarian Church, where we were first meeting, some of the 9 �members of their congregation really had a lot of outreach to us. The ACLU, in working with them, very interested in the gay rights movement in Oklahoma. So we certainly had some friends and some advocates, but I think they were pretty few, you know, and we really weren't pushing them too hard at that point in time to help us with some of the more advocacy type of activities that they've certainly become well-known for since 1980. But I certainly think I recognized we were dealing in a little bit different world then a lot of our heterosexual friends were, because I, for example, was taking materials to Zippers one Saturday night, and I got clobbered by some teenager kids that smashed in my eye, and that was in 1980. That was a time period that several people were getting beat up outside of Zippers and some of the other bars by kids with baseball bats. One of the co-hosts of our first Black and White, which also happened to be in 1980, disappeared and was presumed killed, whether it was gay-related or not. He was very out in the gay bar community, so very possibly a victim of a hate crime at that time. A couple of the drag queens were killed in the 1980 to 83 time period. So I think, and then there was that murder down at Taj Mahal. Mike Green: Double murder. Dennis Neill: So, double murder. So I think, you know, we were certainly aware that there were some risks being gay. Certainly risk being a closeted gay or an out gay in the community at that point in time. But I kind of go back that we also had some very important friends that helped us as we moved forward with regard to the advocacy issues and the legal issues for the gay and lesbian community. Kerry Lewis: And you may have already answered this question, but it kind of leads me to wonder whether you had a personal sense that you were making history of sorts at that time. Was there that sense of excitement that you were doing something new, something that hadn't been done before in Tulsa? Did you understand or comprehend or understand that at that time? Or is that something that just comes since then? Dennis Neill: Speaking for me, I definitely felt it because we would get people coming to our functions that were really so excited to have an organization like TOHR and we had so many of these activities outside of the bars, the skates, the softball, the volleyball. It became a very important outlet for people to get socialized within the gay and lesbian community. I remember doing a radio program and talking a little bit about gay issues and I was really speaking more of an ACLU attorney and getting many, many hostile calls during that talk radio program, but that really made you quite aware that you're pushing the envelope in the Tulsa community. The next morning I had a strange bag on my front lawn and I thought, man, maybe this is a bomb, but it was actually my neighbor leaving some trash out for the trash bin the next day, but just decided to put it in my yard instead of her yard. I think there was definitely a feeling and I think we definitely, I certainly felt that we were having an impact through this organization of reaching out to some of the newer members in our community as well as those that have been here for a long time. 10 �Kerry Lewis: Bob, what about you? Did you have that sense of that you were doing something that hadn't been done before, making history? Bob Inglish: Well, it was exciting and it was a needed service. I don't know that I really had much of a historical perspective. I mean, frankly, I think the three of us are just thrilled to death that TOHR is still here and that it has the many functions that it does. This is all pre-AIDS and there have been a lot of changes in the gay community, but if you think today what the gay community has compared to what we had then, we had nothing outside of the bars. Absolutely nothing. And today, and perhaps it is the result of some of this early work, you have at least two if not three gay churches. You have churches that are certainly accepting of gays. You have Prime Timers. I point to Mike. You have Project Open Arms that deal with gay youth. You have youth services that deal with gay youth. You have, gosh, help me out here, what are some of the other things that we just take for granted today that go on in Tulsa? Mike Green: Council Oaks. Bob Inglish: Council Oaks, Men's Chorale. Now there's a women's group of Council Oaks. There's probably support groups that we're not even aware of that, there was just nothing. There was just nothing. Everything we did, you know, softball team, I mean who would think that gay people would, I mean, you know, it would be stereotypical, but you know, we've had three or four meetings and somebody's talking about a softball league and you're going, why would we want to play softball? Dennis Neill: Who wants to do that? Bob Inglish: I didn't have any desire. There was a big combination of cheerleaders, I remember that. But we sponsored plays. We registered people to vote. We had health clinics because the venereal disease was rampant in the gay community. We did political surveys. We had a lot of programs and it just mushroomed and every year it mushroomed with more and more people involved. I mean, I didn't realize that, but Dennis, you were reading something in 83, which would have been three years later, there were 250 members of the organization and we maybe started out with 10, so. Kryy Lewis: What about you, Mike? Mike Green: I found it very exciting. I didn't realize what was going on as far as, like Dennis said, pushing the envelope, but I always remember the, when Virginia Opulso [Note – Virginia Apuzzo served as Executive Director of the National LGBTQTask Force in the early 1980’s], was that who it was, came to Tulsa in 1983, was that when she came here? And spoke and then we, at a dinner we held at the Trinity Church, we asked earlier, it was downtown, which of course is one of the bigger churches. And I remember the feeling that I had that evening that it was the very first time I had ever gone to a real presentable place for a gay function. The very first time ever. And I knew it was important. I remember I was so thrilled by it. And I remember that she, the thrust of her message was that if the gays would unite, we'd be one of the strongest, the strongest forces in the entire world. I remember going back to Tim's bar after that was over, being so enthused and walking in and all of the 11 �disagreements, the arguments and so forth, I dawned on me that it would never happen. But still, it was just the idea that I had gone to a gay function in a presentable place among presentable people. And that was unique, it really was. To be gay was unique back in those days. Today it's no longer unique. It's just accepted. Accepted the fact, oh, you're gay, like Bob said, in being a secretary. It's not an issue anymore. Of course, I live in Palm Springs now, so out there. It's certainly not an issue with me and my lifestyle. Kerry Lewis: You all have touched on it, but do you have anything else, I guess, to add than what you've already said about the reason for beginning OHR, to start organizing? What you said so far is normal. There was definitely a need for some social events to gather. There really was. The only alternative at the time was the network of bars. But was there any other compelling reason or something that you really felt personally why you wanted to see OHR go forward or having this kind of a group go forward? Mike Green: I think it was the thought, and I think Dennis presented this thought to us, was that we could make a difference somehow. And we didn't know when or how, but by actually organizing and doing something, we could make a difference in what was going on in our lives and those who would have come after us. Kerry Lewis: Are you referring to a political sense or just... Mike Green: Political sense, yes, social, in every aspect of gay life. Because gay life back in those days, as far as I'm concerned, was not acceptable. I remember being in the courtroom representing gay people and the attitude of some of the judges. Just the fact that they were gay made them guilty of something. Maybe not the crime they were charged with, but guilty of something. And that changed. I'm not saying we changed it, but I think that groups like TOHR, OHR, throughout the country and around the country did change it. And so we certainly had our place in it. I remember one judge, a good example would be one judge who was homophobic. And it even said in the courtroom that he would not believe anything a gay person said on the witness stand. Merely because they were gay. And that judge went to a judicial conference in San Francisco and came back a changed individual. And he even said things like, if I would have carried my thoughts to San Francisco, they would have run me out of town on a rail. And he came back just totally a different person. Bob Inglish: I think, you know, not only was TOHR a force, but those of us that were involved, we didn't want TOHR to be a social organization. But at the same time, in addition to maybe having a real feeling that we were doing something, you know, frankly from a personal standpoint, it was a wonderful way to meet people. And, you know, I think a lot of people became involved in the organization because you could meet people and visit with people and do things. And it wasn't that you had to go to a bar at midnight and have a drink and try to converse with people. It was, you know, you could really get to know people. And I know so many people in Tulsa, you probably feel the same way, and Dennis, you do too, that we met in the early days of the organization that we wouldn't have had the opportunity to do. And, you know, you too got involved with Black and White, you know, because, you know, 12 �there was a need to have social activity in the gay community, again outside the bar, so they started the Black and White Party. I, along with several other people, started the Harwelden Party in probably 1981 or so. I think it was probably 81. But, I mean, there was a desire to, like, you know, we're gay people, we can go out, we can have a nice party, a nice social function outside of the bars. And that still goes on today. It's still a nice function and a nice part of the gay community. It seemed like there was some other... Well, to me, one of the pioneering moments of TOHR was the AIDS crisis, because we, as a result of early on, 1983 or whatever, we sent Jeff Beal, and did you say you went too, Dennis? Dennis Neill: Yes Bob Inglish: To a conference about AIDS, and they brought back information about the disease that probably would not have gotten to Tulsa for another year or two. And so we were educating people about AIDS long before it would have happened otherwise, and you just would hope that you would save people's lives, that people's lives were saved as a result of getting that information. But also at that point in time, and I don't know if it was a function of our age or a function of the organization, but people weren't out, and as a result of talking to people and coming to these groups, they...became out. I don't know what the proper English is, but, you know, they became comfortable with being gay. And they weren't before that. And just by having all these activities, they were. And you don't hear... I mean, now people come out when they are 16. They go to a youth group after school. But I can assure you that wasn't the situation at that point in time. And some of our earliest meetings, in fact the first one you noted in the newsletter, was a psychiatrist who came and talked about being gay. I mean, did we have some horrible, awful disease? Were we somehow psychologically impaired? You know, what was wrong with us? That was what was going through a lot of people's minds. And we were able to bring information to people to indicate that wasn't the case. Kerry Lewis: You Dennis, do you have any other reasons other than what had been said for why OHR was formed? Dennis Neill: No, I think it's a good point. When we first started meeting and understanding what the Oklahoma City group orientation was, and we were a chapter initially of the Oklahomans for Human Rights that was started in Oklahoma City about two years before we really got started. It was probably a lot more advocacy at the front because the co-founder of that, Bill Rogers, was a very involved attorney, very involved in the ACLU, very involved in social cause issues. So he was probably much quicker to, in Oklahoma City, take it to be a political advocacy group to the extent it could while it was still a 501c3 non-profit organization. And we felt like here we needed a little more time to develop ourselves and understand for new people coming into the organization, kind of the socialization issue. So we probably did kind of focus on the social side quicker at the beginning, but very promptly got focused on the advocacy side too. In fact, it's reflected in our first 13 �bylaws, which really haven't changed since we organized in 1980, talking about really focusing on non-discrimination for all people. So that was certainly part of our charter at the beginning. It became a focal point fairly early in the organization. And I think that was evidenced by the fact that the news media, the political environment, very quickly became aware of us and we did become the spokespeople for the gay community. Whether we wanted to be representative of the gay community or not, you do need a focal point for the media and for the political establishment. I think we very quickly became the focal point. Kerry Lewis: What kind of response did you receive when you first decided to post your first few meetings and try to get people together? Was there a positive response? Was it easy to reach people that were in the community? What was your sense, Dennis, if you want to... Dennis Neill: Well, Bob has a better memory of this. I had forgotten that even in our initial meetings that we were able to get many of the bar owners together, although I think they probably had a little bit different agenda than maybe we did initially going in. So I might kind of pass it to Bob, because I honestly don't recall a lot of what those first meetings really looked like. Bob Inglish: You know, what I recall is that there was a group of gay people, and we're really speaking from a male perspective because the lesbian community, I think, has evolved a little bit differently. But there was an older group of gay people that I think were very non-supportive of TOHR because they were so used to being closeted. They had their little bridge nights, and they had this and that that interested them, and they had their very private parties. But as far as doing anything publicly, to come out publicly was a threat. They had definitely a system, a code among themselves that you could be gay, but you weren't supposed to tell anybody about it, and you certainly didn't go to an organizational meeting, and I think there was some hostility from that segment of the gay community. I think people that were our age were fairly supportive. Dennis Neill: That's a great point. I've forgotten, a mutual friend of all of ours was very adamantly against us when we first started OHR. He worked in the same building that I did, and he criticized us for about two or three years and eventually became a very big supporter of TOHR and participated in many of our activities, but gosh, Bob's right, the environment even within our own community was somewhat hostile. Bob Inglish: That was a kind of a function Mike served with some of the older members of the community. Mike Green: You guys are right. Now that I remember. Bob Inglish: I would go, Mike, would you talk to these people? Mike Green: And it was fear-based is what it was. We had people who held large positions with oil companies and banks. There were doctors, accountants, and these people were frightened they were going to be drug out of the closet, and Bob's right about the lifestyle they had. They even had their own little language. They had words 14 �that meant certain things that even today most of us don't know what they mean anymore. Bob Inglish: Watch the boys in the band. That will give you an idea. Mike Green: Mitch at the Tea Room had a whole different significance in those days. These people were scared. They really were, and the idea that they wouldn't have to come out. I think also it was a knowledge that they wanted to come out. They wanted this openness, and yet they were afraid what it might bring to them, a loss of earnings after a 55, 60-year-old man who's faced with losing his job. Even to this day, you can be fired because you're gay. There's no protection whatsoever under the law in Oklahoma. These people did not want to lose their source of income, and this was looming in the future that appeared to them. For some reason, many of them did come out, but there are still many older gays who don't want to be associated with these kind of things. As for myself and for the younger people, a gay lifestyle could be a very lonely lifestyle. By organizing, it got rid of some of the loneliness and some of the fear of the future of living a gay lifestyle. I think that was very important to many people, and that's why they opted. Because like Bob said, although we had a different agenda, it was very social. We were talking earlier that when we were organizing it, it got to the point where sometimes the food that was served, not at my house, but at other houses by some of the people that were organizing the group, the main issue was the food and tables that were set for us and things of that type. It's still social, but that's any organization you have nowadays. Any political organization becomes social or any selfimprovement organization becomes social, that's just the way life is. You meet people that have common interests with you, and it becomes very much easier to develop relationships. Kerry Lewis: What kind of things did you do? You mentioned several, but in addition to having meetings where speakers would come and I guess occasionally having dinners and meetings where you ate, apparently, what else? What other kind of activities toward the beginning did TOHR or OHR do? Mike Green: We had the bowling. We were talking earlier, we had the softball tournaments. Bob Inglish: Gay Skates. It was always a surefire fundraiser was to have a roller skating party. I still can't believe it. Dennis Neill: Because we also served alcohol, and we had an open bar at those things. It was a cash bar, and there was one of those skates that we had out in Sand Springs, and somebody, I think it was J.L., ran into the wall and injured himself and was in the hospital for three days. It was probably somewhat alcohol related, so we took some risk with regard to that. I think the skate's demise was when we decided we were going to cool it on alcohol. Mike Green: Then we had a group that met down at Riverside Drive to play volleyball on Sunday afternoons. 15 �Dennis Neill: Very quickly when we first formed, the drag queens were very supportive of the organization, had some fundraisers. Then we did our own Turnabout Drag Show, which became the Follies, where some of us that definitely shouldn't have been doing drag end up doing drag. Hugely successful fundraisers. They raised a couple of thousand dollars each event, which was very vital for our organization at that period of time. Bob Inglish: They did health clinics, registered people to vote, did questionnaires. Dennis Neill: Our picnics were kind of different than the picnics now in that we had a lot of games at those picnics. We had the softball games, chariot races, activity booths. When we started that, like 82 or 83 at the Chandler Park. So that it was very much about trying to get people involved in each activity. So we tried many things. And for the women, we certainly did outreach through the volleyball and the women's softball. Dennis Neill: And we started seeing what would you say, within the first year or so, women starting to get involved with the TOHR. Because by 83, I think two of the six or seven officers were female. And we started seeing a balance develop by the mid 80s where the females were getting involved with, at least at the organizational level, they probably weren't as involved in the meetings and as representative in the community at the meetings, but started getting involved in the leadership positions. Kerry Lewis: Did you have any other activities that you guys can recall at that time? Maybe I should ask this. When did the helpline begin? Was that toward the beginning of the 80s or about the same time? Dennis Neill: I remember we had the training at John Dratz's apartment where he lived there about 15th off of Peoria. And then that Steve, I think that was his name, at his house we had some early training. Typically you'd have to spend all day as a volunteer going through the training. And then we even had some professional trainers and got some training from the Community Service Council's helpline to help us. But gee, it had to be early on, didn't it? Because we had it well before our first office, and our first office came about in 83 or 84, and that was when we used to have it down in Zippers before we even had an office. Bob Inglish: When we had a recorded message, we were listed in the phone book, so it wasn't necessarily staffed, but people could call. Mike Green: We would staff that, I think, in the evening hours, is what we'd usually do, and then record a message in the daytime. I remember one time walking into the clerk's office in one of the courts, and they were all laughing about something. And I realized what they were laughing about was that somebody had told them of the gay helpline, and they were calling it just to get that message. They weren't saying anything, they weren't really harassing phone calls, they were just calls just to see what the message was. And these people could not believe there was actually a gay helpline in Tulsa, Oklahoma. They were so amazed by it. Dennis Neill: Dean Dugan and Steve Wilson, who both worked with Southwestern Bell, helped us get the phone number, because we won that Vanity phone number, 743-GAYS. And I remember that when they put it in, that the central office of 16 �Southwestern Bell, the supervisors, all got together in an office to dial that number and get that recording, because they'd heard about it. And Dean or Steve just happened to be walking by and noticed them all in there wondering what in the world they were doing on a speakerphone. They were listening to our phone number. And within the first few months of putting it in, some students at that Rhema Bible College took a pledge to try to tie up our line. And we understand that was even discussed in the classes, to encourage students to dial our number, because they thought it was not appropriate to have the gay helpline here. And so we had a tremendous volume for about the first six months, and many of them were just hanging up, trying to tie up our line. But the group of dedicated volunteers, we got through that first six months or so, and then got down to the point where we were getting very important calls from people needing health information, needing to know what was going on in the community. The tough ones were the younger people calling, because we at that time felt uncomfortable talking to anybody under 18. And fortunately, we found a couple of resources. I think one of the churches volunteered to be a resource for those that were under 18, and we would provide a phone number for them. But we started getting lots of very important calls. I think the line made a big difference in people's lives. Now, obviously, still 67 percent of the calls might be somebody out of town wanting to know what bar to go to, what activities might be in the community. But a lot of them, particularly, as Bob mentioned, kind of this pre- and emerging AIDS time frame, we could really start seeing the swing over to the health issues by 83, 84. Bob Inglish: Didn't we donate books to the public library? I mean, there wasn't hardly any gay books at the library, or knowledge. Didn't we donate books? Dennis Neill: I think we did. Kerry Lewis: Logistically, how did you guys handle the helpline? Was that kept at somebody's home? Mike Green: No. John Willis, who owns Zippers, volunteered Zippers for the helpline. He had a private office in there. Wasn't there a small office behind his office where we originally set it up? And then later, when we got our first offices, we moved it over there, of course. Kerry Lewis: The impact of HIV and AIDS on the community and your impressions of that. I'm not sure at the time it was happening that it was as clear as it might be now. Looking back on it, what did the sudden emergence of a gay disease, as it was called, have on the community in Tulsa? I Mike Green: think it came around. It evolved so slowly. I can remember sitting up at Rick's and a friend of mine who's no longer living, who's a doctor, reading from Time magazine. I think I handed it to him, a little excerpt about the gay cancer thing. And him just kind of marveling, what is this thing, gay cancer? This really can't be. You know, if it's disease, we're just gay people. It just slowly got bigger and bigger. And it wasn't a long time before it hit Tulsa. Bob Inglish: You could read about it and watch TV about it, but it was all going on in San Francisco and New York. You thought, well, this isn't going to happen in Tulsa. And then it just eventually started happening. One of the first things I remember was, 17 �do you remember, it was at Sophian Plaza. It was at Don Donaldson's apartment. There was this guy that had AIDS. And of course, at that point in time, he knew he had AIDS because he had Karposi. And he had an identical brother. And they were going to go to Baltimore or someplace to have this bone marrow thing. I mean, it was real early on. Dennis Neill: Gosh, I do remember that. Bob Inglish: And we charged like 50 cents. You had to make a donation of 50 cents or something like that to help this guy out, pay for this medical treatment. I mean, Lord only knows the watershed of dollars after that, whether 50 cents a person mattered. But I remember that distinctly. Mike Green: Yeah, now that you talk about that, I do remember something about that. Dennis Neill: Yeah, I had forgotten about that. And then the first one I remember was that by mid-1983, as we started having these TOHR meetings focused on HIV, we started getting aware of it. I think it was in like early 1984, an individual came to one of our meetings and was actually in a wheelchair and was HIV infected and was ill from that. That's the first individual I remember that came to an OHR meeting and was also clearly ill from AIDS. And one of the first deaths I remember was Randy Anderson's death. Bob Inglish: Well, that's who I was talking about. Dennis Neill: Oh, was it Randy? Okay. Bob Inglish: But we were talking about, A, the gay community being very sexualoriented, that you would meet a gay person at an airport and you would just be excited that you met a gay person and that there would be maybe a compulsion to have sex. Dennis Neill: Bob's speaking for himself here. Bob Inglish: Not me, I'm not talking about myself. But then the AIDS crisis comes along and, of course, everybody's sexual activity became very cautious and then so many of us have become coupled. And, of course, you were then saying that that wasn't true for the very older generation, but those people were never out. It's kind of a different generation. Mike Green: That well may be. Bob Inglish: But I can see now where before it was like, well, we're not going to get pregnant, so why not have sex? And you would have a gathering. I mean, Sunday brunch was always a big time. And it would be like, Dennis went home with so-andso and did this, and so-and-so went home with so-and-so. But no, I went home with so-and-so the night before. I mean, that was gay life, really. Mike Green: Well, I think it unfortunately or maybe I don't know what it is, that's still gay life. In many respects. After all, we do have a thing called safe sex nowadays and many people practice it. It's amazing where I live right now, there are a number of people who do not practice that. It's just kind of unbelievable but they don't. And 18 �they're very proud of not practicing safe sex. But now they do have safe sex and when AIDS first came out we didn't know what caused it. We thought if you could be around somebody you'd catch it. I remember a friend of mine went to California and came back and told me he'd been in a party where a guy was dying of AIDS. I said, how could you be near him? How would you be around him? So it was such a very scary thing. The disease was unknown as to how it was transmitted. So it's evolved and it better be bad that we know more about it and we know it's more difficult to catch than most things and that you've got to be promiscuous in certain ways to come down with it. So I still think that there's a lot of sex going on. In fact, that's one of the problems today with HIV spread, is that there's too much sex going on, too much promiscuity in the gay world. Bob Inglish: There certainly wasn't a lot of couples to maybe feel like you were modeling after that wasn't a very normal part of the gay community. And then we're talking now that at least gay people in other areas are adopting children and whatever it is. Mike Green: That is coming around. As far as older people, I have a lot of friends who have celebrated 50 years or more with the same partner. I'm not saying they've been in a monogamous relationship, but they've been together at least 50 years. Bob Inglish: I bet the percentages, though, are very different. You're talking about a pretty narrow percent of the population that you're talking about. Dennis and my generation, you're talking about a lot more people have established relationships and homes and things like that. Or do you not think so? Mike Green: Well, the only thing that will tell is time. Because I think maybe you have more monogamous relationships now than we had before. Dennis Neill: Well, it could be part of the deal, might be, don't you think? Not that there's these huge generational gaps here, but probably in your generation, Mike, there may be more people that were willing to live the lie, i.e., always stay married to a female, and therefore there weren't as many opportunities for some of those people to couple up with a guy where probably in our generation, certainly the younger generations, there's less acceptance of living the lie. And so much earlier on in their development, they may be looking at, one, exploring the sexual side of the gay life, but then, two, realizing that it is important hopefully at some point in time to find an individual that you can kind of revolve your life around. And then our societies get more mature in supporting those relationships. Mike Green: I think that's a good idea. It's much easier to maintain a gay marriage. Dennis Neill: I mean, this whole argument about gay marriage is so ridiculous because if the heterosexual world really wanted to help control the promiscuity issue, it'd be very supportive of the gay relationships, the gay unions, and so forth, much like the Netherlands has experienced and some of the other countries that have a much formalized union process to celebrate the union and to support it in various ways. Mike Green: And two, a lot of people I meet, I'm sure you guys have met too, they look at this idea of being married and getting into a heterosexual relationship and having children and so forth. It really belongs to the Midwest. It's not an East Coast 19 �thing, it's not a West Coast thing, but it belongs to Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas. It may well be. I don't know. I have a lot of friends in California now from Michigan, New York, San Francisco, and most of the guys have not been married and do not have children. Whereas back here, I still have a lot of friends who are my age who have raised families with grandmothers now. Some of the great grandmothers. Organizationally, you had mentioned that TOHR started in 1983 to deal with HIV by having programming that kind of revolved around educating or finding out what's going on with HIV. I know eventually there became testing, but what other kinds of things were going on in the early to mid-1980s involving HIV? [Tape Ended] 20 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2003] Bob Inglish, Mike Green, and Dennis Neill Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 4, 2003 Description An account of the resource Bob Inglish, Mike Green and Dennis Neill Oral History Interview with Kerry Lewis on May 5, 2003 - Discover the early days of Tulsa's LGBTQ+ activism through the personal stories of key founders. This episode explores how the community built a social, legal, and health infrastructure amidst societal resistance and growing awareness of HIV/AIDS. Subject The topic of the resource Bob Inglish, Mike Green, and Dennis Neill Oral History Interview from May 5, 2003 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bob Inglish, Mike Green, Dennis Neill, Kerry Lewis 2003 activism AIDS AIDS/HIV Bob Inglish Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill HIV HIV/AIDs interview Kerry Lewis Kerry R. Lewis Mike Green OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/320d437d44e058a1c10df596b65f542b.mp4 afd12d3e5bc94309d8993ee1619c5595 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/92880036a522ecbbf758f71b648fb7a0.pdf dd57b2cf9caee06bb59f00c1812ddc05 PDF Text Text 1 Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Michael James Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: July 21, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Mary Bishop-Baldwin using Reduct.Video AI July 24, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org �2 About Michael James: Summary In this in-depth interview, Michael James, known as MJ in the community, shares his journey living with HIV for nearly 30 years, his activism, and his extensive involvement in LGBTQ+ advocacy, community service, and HIV awareness initiatives in Tulsa. Discover inspiring stories, community efforts, and the importance of resilience and support. Keywords HIV, LGBTQ+, community activism, Tulsa, HIV awareness, advocacy, Rainbow Library, Pride, HIV retreats, community service Key Topics MJ's personal HIV journey and living with HIV for nearly 30 years Community activism and LGBTQ+ advocacy in Tulsa The significance of HIV retreats and community support programs Historical overview of LGBTQ+ bars and social spaces in Tulsa MJ's involvement with American Airlines' diversity and inclusion efforts The story behind the AIDS quilts and their importance in remembrance MJ's role in organizing Pride events and community fundraising The impact of healthcare policies on people living with HIV The importance of resilience, support, and community in health and advocacy Future directions for HIV awareness and LGBTQ+ support in Tulsa Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction 00:56 MJ's Volunteer Work and Community Involvement 03:51 The HIV Wellness Retreat and Its Impact 07:00 MJ's Personal HIV Diagnosis and Early Days 10:06 Living with HIV Since 1992 and Medical Care �3 14:59 MJ's Childhood and Coming Out Journey 19:58 MJ's Military Service and Awareness of Sexual Orientation 24:51 Early Social Life and LGBTQ+ Social Spaces in Tulsa 30:01 Career Transition and Work at American Airlines 34:45 Involvement in LGBTQ+ Employee Groups and Pride 39:55 Community Fundraising and Support Activities 44:59 The AIDS Quilts and Their Significance 55:01 MJ's Advocacy and Community Leadership 59:59 Future of HIV Awareness and Community Support 01:05:00 MJ's Message to Future Generations Michael James Oral History Interview July 21, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Good afternoon. Today we are in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library. It is July 21st, 2026. The thermometer outside is a hundred degrees, and it's a hot interview coming up for you. We look forward to it. Today, our special guest is: Michael James: Michael James. Toby Jenkins: Michael James, better known in the community as MJ, and he gives a whole new definition to the worker bee, and we are so honored to have him here. We are in the library, and this is the Oklahomans for Equality History Project interview in the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, home and headquarters of Oklahomans for Equality, which sits on Pride Street in downtown Tulsa, Oklahoma. Today our interview panelists are Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality; Mary Bishop-Baldwin, plaintiff in the Oklahoma marriage equality lawsuit. We are so glad to have you today, Michael James. Are you comfortable with us calling you MJ, since that's how we all know you, or would you rather use your Christian name? Michael James: MJ is fine. Toby Jenkins: Okay, we want to jump right in. Got a page full of yeah, yeah, amazing to have you. First of all, I want us to start with talk – kind of tell us some of your volunteer work that you do right now, today, here at the Equality Center, so people know kind of what you do, and do you still serve on the Advisory Board? Michael James: Unfortunately, no, in regard to the Advisory Board, because they did away with those at the – here just recently, so didn't have enough to go. So as far as volunteering, now I am, I manage the bar down in the Linn Riggs Theater. I'm here for every event. Within those events, I make sure that they have a crafted cocktail specific to their event to make their event just that much bigger, better, you know, for their, their �4 clientele. So I do that. I also do some volunteer work, and I'm part of a group called Positively Grateful, which is an HIV resource group, and we meet here every Friday at 6 o'clock and have a community meal. That is really open to the public. If you don't know anything about HIV, STDs, we have learning situations. Other than that, it's a place to just come and meet new folks that have the same issues that you do. You know. So. Toby Jenkins: So are there – do families attend these meetings sometimes who recently there maybe their loved one has got an HIV diagnosis, or I mean, is this … ? Michael James: So, my mother comes to every meeting that she possibly can. She hasn't here lately to her health issues. But, yes, we have partners; we have family; we have grandchildren; we have nieces, you know, and we also get that at our yearly retreat. That's the whole point of Positively Grateful is we fundraise for a yearly retreat every year at the end of August, and that just goes so, so that anybody who is newly diagnosed, has been living with HIV, or their caregivers, can come spend four days for a nominal registration fee of $50, meals included, all types of – you're out Choteau, Oklahoma, 45 minutes away, but yeah, it's so that they can know what to expect. Toby Jenkins: And how many years have y’all had this? Michael James: Positively Grateful is going on three years. Prior to that there was a group called Positively Grateful – no, Grateful -- anyway. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Grateful Day. Michael James: Grateful Day. Thank you, sorry. And I was with them about five years, and we started in a camp up in northeast Oklahoma – really great camp. But I've been supportive of those events. I have been a camper. I've been a volunteer. Anything I can do to help that go smoothly for not only the organization but the campers, I'm gonna, … Toby Jenkins: Maybe I – I may be merging some things. Was this originally, this HIV wellness retreat, wasn't it started by Hope Church, Michael James: Community of Hope. Toby Jenkins: Community of Hope by Rev. Bob Lawrence? Michael James: That is a true statement, yes. Toby Jenkins: So the retreat's been around at least 20 years probably. Michael James: Yes, and then it went away, and then we picked it up. The original founders of Grateful Day were Sabrina K. Marshall, Shana, I can't remember Shanna's last name. Toby Jenkins: Justice Flowers, aka Sabrina. Michael James: Yes, Shana, and then they brought, Toby Jenkins: Cozad �5 Michael James: Yes, Cozad, and then Chuck, they brought Chuck Courtney in, and that's how I really got involved with them was through Chuck. Chuck and I went to school together, so. Toby Jenkins: Now, is Penny Fruth still involved with this? Michael James: Unfortunately, Penny has left the group. Toby Jenkins: Okay, but she was involved. Michael James: She was involved, yes. Very good ally. Toby Jenkins: Now, tell us how critically important this retreat is to a portion of the community that – it's kind of like the highlight of their year. Michael James: So it is. I mean, being a person diagnosed with HIV back in '92, you feel like you're on an island and, you know, yes, you have all these people that you see day to day and stuff, but you really can't truly just be yourself and, you know, and what this does is it gives them four days to come be themselves and not worry about any stigma. Just the people themselves, seeing them come in, you know, just kind of cornered up, you know, and then by the end of the retreat, it's just this big, beautiful … person, you know, that you didn't even expect to see. Things like that just really... Toby Jenkins: And where is the retreat taking place now? Michael James: Retreat now is at Camp Christian. Toby Jenkins: It's been there for now how many years? Michael James: Oh, uh … Toby Jenkins: Ten something? Michael James: Yes, yeah. I would say eight to 10. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Michael James: So, very wonderful group. They shut down the camp altogether so that we can have that weekend to be ourselves. Toby Jenkins: We're gonna ask you to do something with either slip your watch in your pocket or something, so we don't... Yeah, sorry about that. Okay, and now that way you can feel free to use your hands. I love this retreat. It meant the world to me. For several years, I had to help secure the grants for this retreat, and they would gather here and transport up there. Now, I know back in the day, usually they had 30, 35 people. Is it still? Michael James: Yes, yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Michael James: They did have one of the lodges burned down. Yes, one of the newest lodges burned down, like, right after they referred. We had just left. It was their first year �6 to have it open, like, two months, and, yeah, it was scary. But wonderful group of people out there. We went to their grand opening, their groundbreaking ceremony for the new lodge. Very welcoming, you know, all different types of faiths. Toby Jenkins: So, the name of the camp is? Michael James: Camp Christian. Toby Jenkins: Now, is it a faith-based nonprofit, or is it tied to a particular denomination? Michael James: So, I can't remember. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: It's a camp of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) in Oklahoma. Toby Jenkins: So, it's the Disciples of Christ? Michael James: Yes, yes, yes, exactly, exactly. Toby Jenkins: So, it's an inclusive denominational... I guess the Disciples of Christ now are inclusive and affirming. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: I wouldn't say every congregation is, no. Toby Jenkins: But it's an official policy of the denomination, right? So, I'm glad that they work closely with you. Anything else about that retreat? Michael James: Oh, you know, I just, if you know somebody who is, please support them. Show them all the love you can. If you can go learn about the, you know, HIV or STDs, take the time to do it. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you said you were diagnosed in 1992. Was that here in Tulsa? Michael James: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And can you tell us a little bit about that experience? And now that's, so that means you've been living with HIV for almost 30 years, 34 years? Michael James: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Michael James: It was really scary. I had just gotten with my partner and something happened that made me go to the doctor. And I think I had just gotten insurance. Not always been the life of luxury for me, you know, just like everybody else. Ups and downs. You know, I was a hairdresser after I came out of the Army. Went to school to be a hairdresser, did that for a while. Met up with my partner, and in '92 found out that I was HIV positive and got kicked to the curb. Yeah. My mother was there and very supportive, went to my appointments with me. If it wasn't for our lab tech, Dorinda, you know, telling me, “Hey, you know, it's kind of like drugs. You don't worry. You don't let them work you. You work this disease. You tell it what's gonna happen.” And that's �7 pretty much how I've lived my life, you know. I'm not gonna let it get me down. I'm gonna do what I can. Toby Jenkins: Now in 1992, this would have been still during the ATZ years. Michael James: Compavir, yeah. Toby Jenkins: I mean, so was that what, were you started on it immediately? Michael James: Yes, yes, yeah. I wasn't diagnosed with HIV, with, AIDS. I was diagnosed HIV positive. I was just above. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you had no symptoms? Michael James: Correct. So, yeah. Toby Jenkins: But you started on the medication? Michael James: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Because there was a period where if, unless you had symptoms, they didn't start you on the medication, but they started. Michael James: They gave me the option, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and that would have been in 1992. Had you had friends who had had HIV, and had you had friends who had died of AIDS? Michael James: At that time, I didn't know. I was fairly new to the coming out at that point in time. Yeah, so a small-town boy. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so you weren't necessarily aware of … . You hadn't had a friend die of AIDS. Michael James: Correct. Toby Jenkins: I'm so glad that your mother was there with you and supported you. Let's talk a little bit about your childhood. Where were you born? Michael James: Cushing, Oklahoma. Toby Jenkins: Whoa, didn't know that. I had no idea. Michael James: My mother had to drive. We lived in Sapulpa. On Mother's Day, they drove to Cushing, Oklahoma, to deliver me. Toby Jenkins: Why did they go to Cushing? Michael James: That's where her doctor was. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Michael James: This was back in 1966, Toby. �8 Toby Jenkins: The good ol’ days. Michael James: Rural Oklahoma. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Well, also would have had big oil influence. Rural hospitals in those days in Oklahoma were heavily funded by the petroleum industry, so that's a side fact. So, you were born in Cushing, but your family lived in Sapulpa. Michael James: I grew up in the Creek County area. My grandmother lived in Sapulpa. I had a Sapulpa address, a Kiefer telephone number, and I went to school in Mounds. Toby Jenkins: Oh, Mounds. Okay. Michael James: Not Liberty! Liberty is on the east side. We got nuts. Toby Jenkins: So, in school, were you athletic or in the music program or band? Michael James: I was actually in the choir. So, went to state several times. I was like a first soprano up until sophomore year, so, and then, yeah, I started smoking. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you were used music in high school. When you graduated, what year would that have been? Michael James: 1984. Toby Jenkins: From Mounds High School? Michael James: From Mounds High School. Toby Jenkins: And how many were in your graduating class? Michael James: A little over 30. Toby Jenkins: Oh, really? Michael James: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay, I thought Mounds was bigger than that. Michael James: No. Toby Jenkins: Well, I guess not. Michael James: Not back then. Yeah, yeah, it's grown tremendously somehow. Toby Jenkins: So, you graduate from Mounds High School in 19Michael James: 84. Toby Jenkins: Okay, now, just curious. How do you, what's your sexual orientation? How do you identify? Michael James: I'm gay. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and pronouns? �9 Michael James: He, him. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so you're in Mounds, Oklahoma, and you're in the choir, which is like gay preschool, but especially if you went to state college. When did you begin to be aware of your orientation and that you might be gay? Michael James: You know, we all experimented when we were going through puberty and stuff, but it really wasn't until after high school. Like I said earlier, I went into the -- I graduated high school weighing 275 pounds and then went straight into the military from there. So that's really pretty much all I know out of high school. So. Toby Jenkins: So in the military, you got away from Mounds, Oklahoma, and you're now in the military. And where did you go to basic and all? Michael James: I went to basic at Fort Dix, New Jersey, in the middle of wintertime. Toby Jenkins: Oh, mercy. Michael James: Literally bivouac and having to do push-ups where the snow went in and touched my cheek. Yeah, buried my nose. Toby Jenkins: And so then you were exposed to a bigger world. Were you aware that you were gay? I mean, had you? Michael James: I thought about it, I mean, but I didn't take action on it, because I really enjoyed being in the military, and I didn't want to screw it up. Dennis Neill: So when you were in high school, did you do the typical dating girls thing? Michael James: Yeah, yeah. Had a girl. Took her to the … Dennis Neill: You had no inclination then that there was anything different? Michael James: No. Yeah, you know. You guys know me now. I love everybody, OK? And that's just how I've always been. So yeah. Toby Jenkins: OK. So when did you acknowledge your orientation, and when did you develop an intimate relationship with someone? Michael James: Well, it was around 1989, ‘90-ish, OK? Maybe a little earlier, because I graduated high school, went directly from high school into the military. And then about eight months later, I was discharged. Toby Jenkins: Came back to Tulsa. Michael James: Yep. 25-inch waist, shaved head, baby blues, youth on my side, yes. And that's kind of when I kind of let go and said, “Here I am, world.” You know, so. Toby Jenkins: So did you go to gay bars, or did you? Michael James: At one point, I got into a really popular bar when I was underage on a $5 well night. But other than that, I didn't really. �10 Toby Jenkins: Do you remember what the bar was? Michael James: Yes, Zippers. Michael James: Zippers? OK. Yeah. So tell us about the clubs you went to in those days. Michael James: Let's see. Zippers was the only one I went to when I was underage. Everything else, I waited until after the fact. We would go hang out. There was an afterhours club called Exile. I don't know if you remember that off of 11th Street, I think it was. So we'd always go do their hang out. Toby Jenkins: So during those days, you were going to, that's primarily how you were connecting with gay people, was at the clubs. OK. Do you remember some of the bars that were popular in those days? Michael James: Yes. Renegades, Levi's 501, Concessions, Bamboo, Yellow Brick Road. Toby Jenkins: End Up? Michael James: That was before the End Up, wasn't it? Toby Jenkins: OK. Michael James: Yeah. Trying to think, there was one, I think. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever go to Tim's Playroom? Michael James: No, no. My ex performed there, though. Toby Jenkins: Taj Mahal? Michael James: No. Toby Jenkins: Caruso's? Michael James: No. Dennis Neill: A lot of those were probably closed, weren't they? Michael James: Yeah. Dennis Neill: So tell us a little more about Levi's. Michael James: Strokes. Toby Jenkins: Strokes. Dennis Neill: Oh, yeah. Tell us a little bit more about Levi's 501. Where was it located? Michael James: Levi's 501, if you are standing in front of Renegades, looking at the front door, OK, this street over here, I think is like 17th or something like that. If you went straight down that road, like two blocks on the right hand side on the corner, there was �11 a big industrial looking barn type thing. And that was where Levi's 501 was. At that point in time, I was dating Marsha LaRue. Toby Jenkins: Which is? Michael James: Marsha LaRue was a local female entertainer. Michael James: And she was I believe a Miss Gay Something at one point. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so that was the drag name. Michael James: Yes. Toby Jenkins: What was the … Michael James: Mark Lanier. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you were dating a title holder. Michael James: Yes, yes. I was the trophy husband, I guess. Toby Jenkins: And you went to the clubs, and that's how you connected. Michael James: Yeah. Tiki Nook. My dad actually went to that bar. Dennis Neill: And where was it located? Michael James: Tiki Nook was uh, corner of right there off of, so Camelot Hotel, Highway 44, there was a big hotel complex there, and it was upstairs. And then there was an after-hours bar downstairs called Buddies that Mike Treat ran, if I'm not mistaken, so. Toby Jenkins: Good lord, Dennis. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: These were gay bars? Michael James: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Where was Strokes? Michael James: Strokes, wasn't it where Concessions was? Dennis Neill: Yes. Same place. Michael James: Yeah. Dennis Neill: And then also, MJ, about that time close to Levi's, now that you explain it, was a bar called Ma Bell's. You remember that one? It may have closed before then, but Ma Bell's was at 15th and Boulder. Michael James: I don't remember Ma Bell's. I do remember SRO, which was at 15th and Boulder. And it's now that Mexican place, and then it became … Oh, what was it? Dennis Neill: No, SRO was at 18th and Boulder. �12 Michael James: Okay. So no. I'm sorry. Dennis Neill: Okay. No. Toby Jenkins: What does SRO stand for? Michael James: Standing room only. Toby Jenkins: Okay, none of these bars have I heard of – in all the interviews and research. Dennis Neill: And I’d forgotten about Ma Bell’s. Michael James: Delasandro’s, you know Delasandro’s? Yeah, you know that connecting little area with the patio there. That used to be SRO. Toby Jenkins: Oh, yeah. Dennis Neill: And that became Area 18. Michael James: That's right. That's, that's what I was. Yes, Area. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Michael James: Hazmat symbol. Toby Jenkins: All right. So it was the gay bars that you were connecting with? Okay, so during this time were you out to your family? Michael James: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Michael James: Everybody probably knew, 'cause … Toby Jenkins: You mentioned earlier that you were a hairdresser by profession. Michael James: Correct. So after I came back, you know, like I said, everybody's got bad times in their life. Got into a little drug issue and, yeah, got down on my luck and just had to rebuild myself back up. So my mother was married to a vet who was very closed-minded and did not want me around. So unfortunately during that time I didn't see a lot of my family. Toby Jenkins: He didn't want you around because of the drugs or … Michael James: Because of my sexuality. Toby Jenkins: So you had told your mother you were gay? Michael James: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Do you remember that experience? �13 Michael James: I don't. I really don't remember coming out to my mother. The only really bad thing I was, you know letting her know that I was HIV positive, so, and that was really hard. Toby Jenkins: So this would have been in the late '80s, early '90s. And you, were you working at a hair salon, a commercial hair salon, or were you were your own? Michael James: I worked in a place called A Cut Above the Others owned by Woody – I cannot remember Woody's last name – but I started there as his apprentice and built my own clientele up, and then I got with my partner that kicked me to the curb when I found out I was HIV positive because he didn't like me working late nights. Of course, at that time we had also adopted a 5-year-old autistic child. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Didn’t know this. Michael James: Yes, so we were foster parents of this young man. Toby Jenkins: And how long did you have him? Michael James: We were together about five years, and two of that we had … Toby Jenkins: Had the child. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: And did the child stay with him or? Michael James: Yes, yeah, yeah. Dennis Neill: So, MJ, you adopted together as a couple? Michael James: It was, not legally. Yes, it was a foster program type thing. And really I don't know all the specifics of it because he worked in that area, so he knew all the bells and whistles, the ins and outs. Dennis Neill: So he was a state employee? Michael James: Not a state employee, okay, because at that point in time they were getting away from state employees. They were doing – Hissom (Memorial Center) was no longer; they were putting everybody out of Hissom, so there were a lot of developmentally disabled individuals moving into the community, and this person worked with those. Dennis Neill: I see. Toby Jenkins: So, you were a hairdresser, and we come up to the point where in 1992 you were diagnosed. When did you change careers, and, because I know you've been with American Airlines, how many years now? Michael James: I've been with American Airlines for 25. Toby Jenkins: 25 years, okay. So did you go from hairdressing to American Airlines, or was there... �14 Michael James: No, there was a period of time in there, okay, I mean, screw it, here I go, you know, party boy. So that's, yeah, and then I was about, what was it, I guess 35ish. Actually, it was before that. I was, oh, I was working in a bar downtown called The Underground. And what was the name of the bar that was next to that? Dennis Neill: The Dance Park. Michael James: Yes, Regina was there. Dennis Neill: I can't remember the name of it. It's very simple. Michael James: Yeah, yeah, I was working at The Underground, and this... Toby Jenkins: Well, you've already listed 12 bars that I have been to. Were there any straight bars in Tulsa in those days? Michael James: So actually there, so at the place where The End Up is, okay, you asked about End Up, there was actually, it was an Irish-named bar, I think it was called The Shamrock, and Marsha LaRue, Amanda Love, Trudy Tyler, oh, gosh, Bobby, Bobby, I cannot think of his name, Randy, yeah, they went there and did a show. Toby Jenkins: At the Shamrock? Michael James: At the Shamrock, yes, straight, I mean, and that was, yeah, but it was a great time. It was really neat. Dennis Neill: Just real briefly, back when you were diagnosed and you were living in Tulsa, how did you find, one, the medical care here to support you with your diagnosis and any of the support groups that you got associated with? Michael James: So my doctor referred me to Tulsa Cares, and I went through the program, and I actually, like a former director here, I utilized the system to get me through until I could take and provide for myself, you know, so. Dennis Neill: And the doctor, is it somebody you can name? Michael James: So Int to say his name was Dr. Lewis. Dennis Neill: So it wasn't one of the doctors that was? Michael James: No, it was nobody, not at that time, so, yeah. Dennis Neill: And you continued to get medical care through Dr. Lewis? Michael James: So I used the system up until I got my job with American. So as I was saying, I was working at Underground, and a gentleman would come in every day, a really nice gentleman, and we became friends. Well, he just happened to own a local computer software company, and his secretary was getting ready to retire, so he offered me that position. So during my downtime as a receptionist, I taught myself how to use the computer. I mean, I had keystrokes, the whole nine yards. I did that for seven years, and then I was hired March, went to work at American, January the 2nd, 2001, and then got hired on March 19th full-time. �15 Toby Jenkins: And American Airlines has been through multiple transitions, and you never lost your job? Michael James: This close. This close to 9/11. So back then it was a management/staff clerk type position, and now it's a union position, so I got time. Toby Jenkins: And so with American Airlines came insurance and a lot of resources for your personal life. Michael James: Yep. So at that point in time, you know, I had to jump ship. Toby Jenkins: Jump ship? Michael James: As far as I was making too much money for the Ryan White program at Tulsa Cares, so I had my own insurance and stuff, went to my own private care. I went to Dr. Haas. She was my doctor for forever. Toby Jenkins: Let's just take this opportunity for our viewers to understand this. Health care, medical insurance was a defining moment because prior to the Affordable Care Act, Obamacare as we call that, which decided you could not refuse treatment or you could not deny somebody based on a pre-existing condition. So that was a life-saving … So all of a sudden we had this surge of people who were able to return to the work force, because in those days, Michael, you went to work for American Airlines, you got insurance, your pre-existing illness didn't disqualify you. But did you always be afraid that if you ever lost your job with American Airlines that you would lose your health insurance? Because your health insurance didn't travel with you. Michael James: Correct. Toby Jenkins: And so I just want our viewers to understand historically it was the difference in people who were able to work and have health insurance, but sometimes you would stick with the job you hated because you had health insurance and you didn't want to lose your health insurance, which people still do for other reasons, too. Okay, so you went to work at American Airlines. I notice that there's so many things that you've been involved in. I want to … You went to work for American Airlines. Were you out at work? Michael James: I was myself, okay? No matter what, I'm kind of a back, shied off guy, but I'm gonna be myself no matter what. And I mean everybody knew. Whenever I came out and joined the pride group and started our pride group out there, I didn't have to do any. I didn't have to come out, you know. Toby Jenkins: What year would that have been? Michael James: About ten years ago? Toby Jenkins: I thought longer than that. Michael James: No, it's been about … Mary Bishop-Baldwin: And this is an employee resource group? �16 Michael James: Employee business resource, the Pride Employee Business Resource group that started in 1984, I believe it was, right when the AIDS epidemic was in full swing and they wanted American Airlines to burn the blankets and pillows and everything after pride flights, yes. Yes, ma'am. And we formed a pride – or actually it was called GLEAAM back then. Yes, Gay Lesbian Employees of American Airlines, so. Toby Jenkins: Because of the discrimination and the stigma? Michael James: Correct. If you're gay, you got AIDS. Toby Jenkins: So did you have to revive the chapter here in Tulsa or did you have to start it? I mean, had they ever had … Michael James: We had to revive it. So, as you said, American’s been through a lot of stuff. At one point they really brought DEI to the forefront, and it really wasn't DEI back then, though. This was before all that came around. They had a chapter, but it was a downlow chapter. They would meet off base. You know, they wouldn’t let – you had to be part of the group to know where to meet. They were that afraid. Toby Jenkins: So you began to organize in 2016? Michael James: Yep, something like that. Then we started coming out. Toby Jenkins: Did you have the support of American Airlines corporate? Michael James: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And HR personnel? Michael James: We had the entire Tulsa base behind us. Corporate down south was behind us. Of course, we had many other chapters that we had to share with. I was fortunate for the time that I was there to be able to be a proud $10,000 sponsorship for several years for our Pride. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so you said they had to share for other chapters. You mean other chapters at other cities in American Airlines? Michael James: Correct. Toby Jenkins: Or other affinity groups at the …? Michael James: No, it's that there are different pride chapters everywhere throughout the world.. Toby Jenkins: So you would network with all them and get ideas? Michael James: Yes, yeah. We would go down and have meetings and stuff. Toby Jenkins: Now, when you, did a group of you decide, did you find out American Airlines had this out there and you said, I want to do this? Or did y'all begin to meet and say, hey, we need to organize here? �17 Michael James: So I found out there was a group, and then I really wanted to become more involved. And this was the time that they started pushing the employee business resource groups at that time. So I'm like, sure, I'll step up. So took it from there, got it ... Toby Jenkins: So in the regular workforce, so the people you worked with, the other employees who were not gay, were they aware this group had formed? And was there any, I mean, if you went, if people went to it, was there people, I just assume that meant they automatically knew they were sexual? Because I know you had several straight allies involved. Michael James: Yes, yes. And there's that stigma once again. Yes, if you're part of a queer club, a gay club, whatever, straight alliance, gay alliance club, you're automatically gay no matter what. That was the biggest issue that I had. Unfortunately, a lot of the guys and the ladies and all those in between would come up and say, I appreciate you wearing that shirt to work. I couldn't do it. But you were online and married and everything else is about, so. Toby Jenkins: Ah. Interesting. So y'all had T-shirts that you could wear in the workplace that were American Airlines. Michael James: American branded, uh-huh. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So that let other people know. Yes. When you were wearing that Tshirt, did people come up? Hey, I'm gay, and did they not know about the group and they started coming into the group? Michael James: Nope, nope. It was, you know, I never, yes, I got people who wanted to come join the group. Nobody who actually came out, okay? Believe it or not, I, … there were more straight allies joined during my time than anything, so, yeah. And I really, they're still there for me. Toby Jenkins: So previously, American Airlines had been one of our big corporate sponsors of Tulsa Pride back in the early 2000s, and then when the economic downturn happened, we lost State Farm, Cox Cable, and American Airlines, and then when you got involved, you brought them back to the table in a big way. Michael James: So wasn't this before that? Toby Jenkins: Yeah, it would have been, this would have been the early 2000s, and then, you know, 2007 when we had the big, 2007, 2008, all corporate support went away. I mean, that's why we moved Pride from the park to here. We couldn't afford to have it over there anymore. But you brought them back to the table. Yes. Yeah. So, and how did you, where did y'all jump in? I mean, you not only brought them back as a Pride sponsor. Michael James: I jumped in, I mean, you know, I knew the Equality Center. I had been to Prides before. I had never been on the other side of that. Toby Jenkins: The organizing. �18 Michael James: You're correct, so our group, hey, let's get some community, you know, going here. So we started volunteering through the Equality Center when we did drag bingos to raise funds for our Pride Festival in January through May, you know? Toby Jenkins: Every year, we would, about 10 years ago, we started doing Pride bingos here at the center. Dale Hogan helped start that, and companies would buy tables or individuals, and. Michael James: And then we would come out, we would take and serve them. We would be behind the bar. We would have people coming out to their tables, making sure that they were full and happy and having a great time, and then. Toby Jenkins: And y'all would wear your American Airlines shirt. Michael James: Yes, sir, yep, yep. Toby Jenkins: So that people knew we had our volunteers running drinks. It was, … Michael James: We even, I think we brought some bar cart out here at one time and pushed it around. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, some bar cart like you see on the flights. Michael James: Flight attendant carts. We then started working, okay, well, if we can do this, you know, I know that there are other corporations out there that have these groups, you know? So we all started working together, and that's when we started getting Blue Cross Blue Shield to come in and all that stuff. Toby Jenkins: PSO. Michael James: Right, yep, yep, yep. Toby Jenkins: One Gas. Michael James: Uh huh. Yep, we had volunteers out at the wazoo, and it was fabulous. It was fabulous. Bingos would sell out. Toby Jenkins: Both rooms. Michael James: Yes. Yes. Yes. Toby Jenkins: And it helped us pay for Pride. Michael James: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Yes. So you created that, you recruited them and got them involved, and they were just wonderful volunteers. And then I know that you also, while you were at American Airlines, y’all began to do some diversity training, and you would invite us to come and do presentations. Michael James: Yes. If I recall, you'd come out and do how to be an ally. They did some youth training – abuse and stuff. There was also one, yes. �19 Toby Jenkins: I know we did a presentation on marriage equality. Didn't you serve on that panel? Mary Bishop-Baldwin: I don't recall. Toby Jenkins: But I know you had us come out and talk about why marriage mattered. Michael James: Yeah. Equality time. Yeah. Very well-attended events. Toby Jenkins: So you were helping with Pride Bingo, but then you also, I know American Airlines kind of stepped up with the Grateful Day Foundation and helped with their big fundraisers, too. Michael James: Correct. Yes. We would just do different portions of proceeds. I mean, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yes? Michael James: Yes. I don't know where else to go with that. Toby Jenkins: Another big spaghetti dinner every year, y'all. Michael James: So, no. We didn't really do, we did more for the Equality Center. Wasn't really more for Grateful Day. That was more of a personal thing on the Grateful Day side of it. So now, did my people take in, also come and volunteer at those events? Yes. I had my people from American and other organizations that did that as well. But yes, we go out and we volunteer for the awards dinner. Toby Jenkins: So tell us a little bit about how you got inspired to come up with the beverage carts, which were branded. We had an OkEq branded one, and then we had a, whatever the Pride logo was. Michael James: Yes, we did. There were two or three years that we were able to, our leadership donated flight attendant carts, and they would take and refurbish them. I would use the theme of that year's Pride to put – one year we did it on one side, I think. One side was Pride; one side was OKEQ. And then the next year, when we did the Tulsa to Oklahoma City theme, that wrapped all the way around the flight attendant cart. They would take exotic woods and carve them out to specific bottles, like crown bottles, glassware, ice bin, the whole lot, lights, remote control. We donated. Toby Jenkins: And we would sell these for $10,000. Michael James: Yes, at Gala. Toby Jenkins: People would go nuts. And I remember one year, he was with the chamber, and his partner was a flight attendant, and they bought that. His flight attendant partner asked, “Why in the world are you buying that?” He said, “Well, I thought it was neat,” and he said, “I have to deal with one of those all the time.” Gary Meadows and his partner bought one one year. �20 Michael James: And then, yeah, somebody bought one, and then we, they matched it but didn't want the cart or something like that. And then somebody donated on top of that. I mean, that year it was like $30,000. It was amazing. I mean, I was very proud. Toby Jenkins: And then American Airlines would sponsor a Gala table. Michael James: Yes, yes. Toby Jenkins: And they would sponsor Pride. Michael James: We'd sponsor bingos. Very, very great. Toby Jenkins: Because they would walk in, if I remember this correctly, you would keep a list of the people that volunteered, and then we would verify that, and then they, American Airlines, would match those volunteers? Or was that ConocoPhillips that I'm thinking of? Michael James: No, that’s ConocoPhillips. Dennis Neill: So, MJ, what is your thought about why that has changed so much? Where we lost all of these affinity groups, this corporate support. Toby Jenkins: Diversity. I mean, do you still have this at American Airlines? Michael James: So, it's tough to say. I don't know if we overdid things, you know? I mean, at the end of my tenure with the EBRG, our DEI group made me want to DIE. I mean, it was just shove it, you know. I get that, okay? But I don't, it's tough to say. Unfortunately, we had COVID that came around. Nobody wanted to be around anybody, and then you became that recluse, and how hard is it to get out of that, you know? So, and it's just a lot, it takes a lot to build back, and we're building back. Dennis Neill: You are building back? Michael James: We are building back. Dennis Neill: So the corporation isn't blocking you from building back? Michael James: No, they still have, they're called team member resource groups now. We no longer have a chapter in Tulsa, so we can't get sponsorship. However, I still have my management sponsor that we have a core group of people that still, to this day, we drive shuttles for Pride. They'll be the back of the thing so that people can walk behind and dance and just be themselves for Pride. So they, our local is still very involved, so. Toby Jenkins: So you're still in Pride, the Pride parade and all that? Michael James: Not since I've been bartending. Toby Jenkins: Oh, okay, all right. I was thinking I’d seen American Airlines in the parade. Michael James: So yes, we, yes, like I said, they bring up the rear of the parade. We've got music on the back. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: So you're saying American is still in the parade? �21 Michael James: American is still, yes. Me, I'm behind the bar. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and when he says bar, he means he's running the bar for Pride. Michael James: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: For thousands of people pouring and overseeing all the volunteers with that. Okay, I want to talk about, a little bit about you were involved with Friend for a Friend and tell kind of what that is and what you. Michael James: So when I got diagnosed, resources are there. One of the resources was an organization called A Friend for a Friend, and it was started by Alice Bates. And if I'm not mistaken, it was in her son's memory. Excuse me, he was diagnosed with HIV, and he had a dog, and “Who's gonna care for that poor dog?” she thought. So she started A Friend for a Friend. I used their resources, and then I actually started volunteering for the organization. Toby Jenkins: And so Friend for a Friend provided pet food, veterinarian care, helped out financially if there was some kind of issues associated with someone living with HIV/AIDS and they didn't have the resources to care for their pets. Michael James: Correct. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dennis Neill: In that, did you have a physical location, and did you have a paid staff person that ran the program, or is this all volunteers? Michael James: I was, to my knowledge, it was just all volunteers. And when I was delivering, we went and picked the dog food up from Alice's house. And then. Toby Jenkins: And you say as a client, you had benefited from it. Michael James: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you believed in it. Michael James: Yes. And then when Alice passed away, my best friend, Jason Eddingfield, was her right-hand person, and he took it over, and then we carried on. I was still volunteering with that. And unfortunately we lost all the other support when we lost Alice. So it had to go. Dennis Neill: So what year do you think that was? Michael James: It's only been, what, five years ago? Toby Jenkins: Less than five years. Dennis Neill: Because they had her service at Unity, right? Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Dennis Neill: And that's kind of when things stopped. �22 Michael James: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Well, nobody could tell Alice no. She would ask, but. So did you help with the big fundraisers they'd have here at the center where Al Triggs would cook carrot cake cupcakes? Michael James: Yes, yes, that's correct, yes. We would have our like fall meals, and Al would make his infamous carrot cupcakes and, oh my gosh. But yes, we would volunteer with that for Grateful Day Foundation for that. Toby Jenkins: So, yeah. Toby Jenkins: So just to talk about that, you said that you had been a client at one time. Toby Jenkins: So you had a pet, and obviously you were struggling financially and on disability taking care of you or however the rhyme went. Were there times that you were afraid you were going to have to give up your pet because …? Michael James: That wouldn't happen. Toby Jenkins: It wasn’t going to happen. Michael James: No, that wasn't going to happen. No. No. Ride or die. Toby Jenkins: But it meant a lot to you to know that this resource was available for you. Michael James: It did. It meant a lot that it was there for me, able to keep my security while I didn’t have my mother. Dennis Neill: So were you dealing with symptoms at this period of time? Michael James: No, no. I was dealing with drug and mental issues at that time. Dennis Neill: But you were on disability? Michael James: No. Dennis Neill: Okay. Michael James: No, I was on the Ryan White program. Dennis Neill: Okay. Sorry. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: And what did that provide for you? Michael James: That provided me, let's see here, doctors. Okay, that's where I – OSU. I got in on at OSU. Food, whatever. Toby Jenkins: Did they help with housing? Michael James: Housing, yes, and they helped with housing in the days. Toby Jenkins: Bus passes? �23 Dennis Neill: And this was all through the Tulsa Cares case worker? Michael James: Yes. Dennis Neill: And that's when they were on Admiral, I assume. Right? Michael James: Yes, correct. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever do anything with the Lambda Bowling League, which is the LGBT bowling league? Michael James: So, yes. Every year they would have a yearly bowling tournament. And when Grateful Day was around and Chuck Courtney, we would always go out to their big fundraiser and sell raffle tickets and donate our time there. So, got to meet lots of people, spread, you know, lots of people would ask about our group and stuff. And we'd sit down and tell them, and they’d … . Toby Jenkins: And in those days, the bowling league was huge. Michael James: Huge. I mean, it's at Sheridan Lanes. And, I mean, yeah, it's a good thing I didn't track my steps back then because... Toby Jenkins: Yeah, I'd say probably as many as 25 lanes. And there would be five to six team people in each. Michael James: Yep, and then you've got their people with them and so, yeah. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Once a week? Toby Jenkins: Yeah, every week. Michael James: Well, no, this was for their yearly bowling tournament, but yes, they would. Toby Jenkins: Oh, yeah, they had a huge tournament. Oh, yeah, it'd be bigger than that, yeah. And so, that helped them fund Grateful Day Foundation. So, tell us a little about Chuck Courtney. You've mentioned him. Michael James: Chuck Courtney. Toby Jenkins: And how did you meet him? Michael James: Oh, Chuck Courtney and I met somewhere out between Mounds and Kiefer. Back in the '80s, the late '80s, after I came back from the military. Went our ways, and then somehow or another we ended up connecting somehow. And it was like, bam, bada bing, bada boom. I got involved with Grateful Day at that point in time, like I said. Wonderful man, very knowledgeable. Toby Jenkins: You were roommates for a while. Michael James: Yes, yep, and we lived back-to-back. So, great guy. Like I said, he was part of one of the founders of Grateful Day. Just so much about him, you know. �24 Toby Jenkins: Yeah, he's just like you – a workhorse. He just was a doer. Michael James: You ask him a question. If he didn't know he was going to dig until he found out, yeah. Needed the shirt off your back, yeah, he'd give it to you. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: And you were both from Mounds. Michael James: He was from Kiefer. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Oh, he was from Kiefer. Michael James: Yep, and I was from Mounds. But remember, I had a Kiefer telephone number. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Yes, I understand that. Toby Jenkins: There's a legend here that people probably think is a legend, but we're going to tell the true story on the legend. So you and Chuck, and you all were involved, I guess, with Grateful Day Foundation, which eventually became Positively Grateful. But during that time, if I remember correctly, there was a group of people that wanted to do a documentary on HIV/AIDS in Tulsa, and I can’t remember the name of the people that were wanting to do that. And so they connected with Chuck, and Chuck was helping with that. Michael James: Chuck spearheaded that with them. Toby Jenkins: And so they wanted to do a story on Alice's Our House. She headed Our House, which was an HIV/AIDS resource house for people in the community and Friend for a Friend and all the work she had done. And during that time, there began to be questions about the AIDS quilts. And you all got involved in that. Michael James: Yes, yes. Chuck came to me one day and said, “Hey, break out the mystery machine. We're going to solve a mystery.” So, and he told me that the Center had received a call saying that they were missing quilts. We had help find them. Toby Jenkins: AIDS quilts. Michael James: AIDS quilts. Toby Jenkins: So when the Equality Center opened at this location at 621 East 4th Street, we were one of the few places in the United States that it was our permanent home that we were going to own. And it was very common for the NAMES project, which was based in Atlanta, they would allow LGBT community centers, resource centers, they would allow them to permanently display the quilts. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Certain panels. Toby Jenkins: Certain panels. Michael James: Right, and so there was an organization from there that was local. Toby Jenkins: Right. And we had a NAMES Project committee here, and so they reached out, and those individuals, who are no longer with us, got the quilts. All I know �25 is that from the day when we opened the building, we always had the AIDS quilts hanging on the wall, the original AIDS quilts that were Oklahoma specific, and we had at least four. So we had two, and we would take the others out for World AIDS Day. OSU sometimes would request them, sometimes Tulsa Care, All Souls would come and, you know. But we only had four that I knew of. Then when they decided to move the NAMES Project to the National AIDS Museum in San Francisco, they said all the AIDS quilts need to return to the NAMES project. And we went into this legal battle with them, because we kept saying we have the paperwork saying we could have these here on permanent display. And we kept telling – they said, you've got 10 quilts, and we said, we've got four. And so pick it up there. Michael James: So Chuck, being the guy he is, he picked it up and ran with it. I worked during the day, so I wasn't able to do a lot of stuff, but he would do a lot of the background work. We got to go into the Catholic archives and look in it. It was very, oh my gosh. Just the search. Go, go, go. Toby Jenkins: St. Joseph’s House. Michael James: Look, look, find this … . We'd go look. Finally, we found them at the 11th hour before, I can't remember what they said. They were going to charge us some outrageous amount. Toby Jenkins: They were going to sue us. Michael James: Yeah. And American Airlines helped pay cargo for those. Toby Jenkins: And you found them where? Michael James: We found them in... Toby Jenkins: Now, you checked multiple locations, Tulsa Cares, St. Jerome's. Michael James: St. Jerome's, OSU, because they had even borrowed it to hang from their, several locations. And we found them in the shed. And I can't remember – we said it. Toby Jenkins: Ray Chance. Michael James: Ray Chance's house. Still in a box. Very minimal damage, thank goodness. So we were able to bring them back here. Toby Jenkins: Weren't they buried under newspapers, like gay magazines? Michael James: Yeah, they were in a big. Yeah, they were buried, but there was a little bit of... Mary Bishop-Baldwin: How many were in the box? Michael James: Six. Toby Jenkins: Six. There were six. We had four, and they had six. Dennis Neill: What led you to Ray's location? �26 Michael James: So Chuck got a lead. Seriously. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: This should be a movie. Michael James: No, like I said, the mystery machine, you know? We were like, yeah, Scooby and Freddy or something. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: That’s amazing. Michael James: Brought them back here. And then at that point in time, we were able to do some high-resolution stuff, get the quilts back to the National Archives, and now we have local copies here. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Facsimiles, essentially. Full size. How did you do that? Michael James: With the talents of … Toby Jenkins: Jeremy Stevens and his partner Alan Mueggenberg, if I'm saying that right. Alan's company was able to create those, and so they paid for that, and then we were able to send them away. And we had a big ceremony that they would be, we told people, we had them on display and told people to come down and see them. Michael James: We had them right there in the Bruce Goff, World AIDS Day, if I'm not mistaken. Toby Jenkins: All of them, not just the... We've probably got video of that somewhere. And so I quit fighting with the National Names Project, and y'all paid to have them boxed up and mailed back. They're there, available. I mean, you can pull it up on their website. Yes. And we now have what are high-resolution facsimiles. Most people don't even realize they're not the original quilts. And we just recently found about one. We know we have four, but we found a third one. So I want to thank you and Chuck for doing that. That was a pretty historical event. Michael James: It was very interesting, learned a lot, and made me even want to get into it more so. Toby Jenkins: Now I know you were also involved in T.U.L.S.A., which is the Tulsa Uniform and Leather Seekers Association. Michael James: Correct. I was in that organization for a couple of years, started out as a pledge. How I got started was my friend, Richard Ziese, a former Mr. Tulsa Leather, and it was more of a fun thing to me. I didn't really fit the lifestyle, but the people were cool, you know, and it's just another form of drag, right? You put on your leathers and, you know, and they're an organization that go out and do fundraisers, okay, not only for themselves, but they'll join with other organizations and help fundraise for them as well. So they ended up disbanding as well, I think. Toby Jenkins: You used to meet here. Michael James: Yes, met here. �27 Toby Jenkins: You would have a room full of 30 or 40 people. Now, did you help with Richard when they did the leather archives? Michael James: Yes, that was when I was being initiated, and we were actually ribboncutting, and yeah, it was a very wonderful thing. Toby Jenkins: Thank you. So you know the details on the display case that has... Michael James: I know several of the people in there. Toby Jenkins: Okay, very good. That's helpful information. Because eventually it will move down here, right? And this area is going to be redone, and the library's ... Is it all right to say that? Dennis Neill: Uh huh. Toby Jenkins: It's going to be moved out there … Michael James: Oh, right on. Toby Jenkins: … to make it more accessible, and you know, we've got kind of a dead space. Used to, we had a computer lounge there, and we don't necessarily do that. And so the leather archives will eventually be here. Michael James: Right on. Okay, that's cool. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Along with other archives. Michael James: And then during that time... Toby Jenkins: So you and Richard were the ones that put all that together? Michael James: Yes, along with some of the other... Toby Jenkins: David Howell down in Florida, I think. Didn't he help some? Michael James: I think so. And then somewhere down the road, with Grateful Day, I got involved, not as a member, but working with the Imperial Court of all Oklahoma, as well. And we would, as the organization Grateful Day, we would go volunteer with them, help them raise funds. We were a... What am I looking for? At the end, they take in, they pay their, we're like a benefactor. We benefit the organization, so. And then, ever since then, I go every year for their coronation and volunteer as their bartender for their hospitality. Toby Jenkins: Tell our viewers a little bit what the Imperial Court is. Michael James: So, Imperial Court of All Oklahoma is, it's a court system all throughout the states. And they go around raising funds for different, they're another fundraising organization. That's really what I know about them. Toby Jenkins: So, they're modeled after the European court system. There's kings and queens and dukes and duchesses and princes and princesses and ... �28 Michael James: Tiaras. Toby Jenkins: We have Carolyn Wiley's interview. She was an empress. Michael James: She was, yes, like the main mama entry. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, yeah. So, we had her as part of our archives. Okay, I forgot about that. Anything else, Michael, that you, since you've just sit on your hands and you've not done anything for the last 15, anything else that you were involved in that we, well, you served on for years here on the advisory board. Michael James: Yes, I served for a couple years here on the advisory board. I volunteered, I've been a volunteer here for 10 years. I’ve managed the bar in the theater for three now. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And it's kind of seen a resurgence. Will you be helping this weekend with the Fringe Fest? Michael James: I'll be right here with two signature cocktails. Dennis Neill: So, MJ, of all of your activities that you participated in through these many years, what is kind of the high point that you can think of that has been so meaningful to you personally? Michael James: My high point is seeing our community benefit from some of the things that I can do. Whether it be getting them dog food, whether it be hanging with them for a weekend at a retreat, whether it be behind the bar making a cocktail. I just love our community. And that’s, yeah. Toby Jenkins: I know recently I've been able to attend a new thing that's happening in the Lynn Riggs Theater with Jason and Bill Nelson called Broadway Clubhouse, and that's capacity crowds. And are you enjoying, I know you just seem to be flying with the energy that you feed off of. Michael James: Oh my gosh. That's been an idea of Mr. Neill's for quite some time to bring something very similar to Marie's Crisis here to Tulsa. We started it. Unfortunately, that didn't work out, but we have two wonderful people who are in charge of it now, and I'll tell you what. I mean, being a former choir boy and just hearing all that, coming right, not at me, but just up, it's just the energy in the house and the energy that I feel when I'm here. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Show tunes. Michael James: And it's not just show tunes. I mean, come on, we do some Queen in there, too, right? Toby Jenkins: So we get together and we sing Broadway show tunes, and of course it'll be music that may have been featured in by musical artists or Disney shows. I mean, when you say Broadway shows, you don't realize how comprehensive and expansive that is. Michael James: Yeah, and jukebox jingles or something ... �29 Toby Jenkins: But I will tell you that the warmth and the friendliness and the excitement that you bring to those events, I know you're happiest when it's a packed house and people are enjoying themselves. Dennis Neill: MJ, you mentioned that when you were diagnosed and you lost that partner, because he couldn't deal, I guess, right, with your diagnosis. How about since then? Have you had some long-term relationships that have been meaningful to you? Michael James: Yes, Dale Hogan is really about the only other long-term relationship. It's been about seven years. We were together about seven years. We still remain friends. Sure wish I could get him to come back as Rainbow Granny, dang it. But... Toby Jenkins: So it can be a strain, a medical diagnosis for people, and some people just can't deal with it. They're not equipped. But that doesn't help somebody who's dealing with it. Yeah, I mean, and hopefully in the wellness retreats, y’all address some of that, probably. Michael James: Yes, yes. Toby Jenkins: Have some discussion groups. Toby Jenkins: Yes, we have. Michael James: For a, go ahead, I'm sorry. Michael James: We have panelists. We have a doctor that comes out. We have a... Toby Jenkins: Mental health provider. Michael James: Mental health. We have pharmacists, a pharmacologist that comes out. We even have, uh, wanding sessions. So like spirit, just wellness. You take wellness and go however. Toby Jenkins: You have chaplains sometimes. Michael James: Yeah, George is always there providing services. There's a labyrinth that takes you through a journey, you know. So very, yeah. Dennis Neill: So with the people you've been close to that have been dealing with HIV, and with all the new medications, have you still seen some people that we lose to the actual disease, or is it usually other complications? Michael James: It's always other complications, unfortunately. Dennis Neill: Do they have a relationship to their compromised systems? Michael James: Yeah, I could see some of them, but you know, not everybody's that. It's not that, you know, granted, okay, pneumonia. Okay, you can have pneumonia, but is it truly caused because of your HIV? You know, I mean, yeah. Dennis Neill: So we've seen a real sea change there, right, in the treatment and the longevity? �30 Michael James: Yeah, yes, yes. You know, I mean, I didn't think I would be here now, you know. I've, in the beginning, I had several medication changes, but I've only had probably two medication changes within the last 30 years, 25. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Do you attribute your longevity, the fact that you didn't die in those earlier days, to the timing of when you were diagnosed, because these drugs had come about then, or to what do you attribute this? Michael James: Have you met me? My hard head, okay? My stubbornness, my will to live, okay? I am not ready to die, okay? As y'all know, I got too much stuff to do. I almost said a bad word. Toby Jenkins: And obviously, you're not willing to sit on the sidelines. … World AIDS Day, have you ever participated in any of the World AIDS Day events? Michael James: World AIDS Day, we did with Grateful Day, and that we stuck, talked earlier, we took the quilts, we hung them from the ceiling in the Bruce Goff, and they kind of wrapped around, and people could walk through and see that. That's really about the only one that I, you know. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, well, we're trying to revive World AIDS Day. Michael James: Let's do it. Dennis Neill: It's going to be on Tuesday, this time, and we have been challenged by others, including you, to make sure that we have a real recognition of World AIDS Day, and so we hope that Mary and you and some others can kind of help lead this effort of pulling back the community that we used to have such a robust remembrance of World AIDS Day. Michael James: I'd be honored to, so. Toby Jenkins: Anything else from our interview panel? So usually we ask our guests, give you just a second to think about it, is there any message you want to give anybody who comes after you, maybe younger people or just people who review your interview, do you have a final message for them? Michael James: Man, amongst all the BS, don't lose yourself, and don't give in. Don't give in. Be that person to help make the world a better place. Toby Jenkins: It has been our distinct pleasure to interview Michael James, known in the community as MJ. Our interview panelists have been Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality; Mary Bishop Baldwin, the Marriage Equality Plaintiff, and Toby Jenkins. It is July 21st, 2026, and I believe it's now 101 degrees outside, but it's been a warm, warm experience. Thank you so much, Michael. Michael James: Thank you all. Look for me down in the bar. Remember, if the light's on, bring it on. If the light's off, back off. Dennis Neill: Ha, ha. Thank you, MJ. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Thank you, Michael. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Michael James Interview Subject The topic of the resource Michael James Oral History Project Interview from July 21, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Michael James, Toby Jenkins, Mary Bishop-Baldwin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 21, 2026; July 24, 2026 Description An account of the resource In this in-depth interview, Michael James, known as MJ in the community, shares his journey living with HIV for nearly 30 years, his activism, and his extensive involvement in LGBTQ+ advocacy, community service, and HIV awareness initiatives in Tulsa. Discover inspiring stories, community efforts, and the importance of resilience and support. Interview conducted by Toby Jenkins and transcribed by Mary Bishop-Baldwin. 2026 activism advocacy AIDS Quilt AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV longterm survivors American Airlines coming out community fundraising Gay Bars healthcare HIV HIV Education HIV/AIDs interview Mary Bishop-Baldwin Michael James NAMES Project NAMES Project quilt Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Pride Rainbow Library Toby Jenkins transcript Tulsa Gay Bars video volunteers https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/0d426be7c4cbee728bc6662809a1c1e6.pdf 6b7bcb0c286cb5c7ddf8bc5b88622c10 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Vernon Jones Obituary Description An account of the resource Transcript:<br /><br /> <p>Vernon Leon Jones, 88, of Tulsa, Oklahoma, left this earthly plane to be with his late partner Phil Wiley, on February 5^th, 2024.</p> <p>He was born in Oklahoma, on May 3^rd, 1935. As a gay man, born and raised here, Vernon’s chosen family is vast. He is survived by Hayward Jones, Nekesha Jones, JaKobe Jones, Sue Davis, Fred Hilliard, Arlowe Clementine, Mason Thomas, Rey Thomas, and so many other individuals that claimed Vernon as their friend, family, and elder.</p> <p>Vernon was an active learner, even in his later years. He was always working to understand the world around him and was eternally hopeful for a better world. He was a strong advocate for marginalized peoples and was particularly committed to Queer and Black Liberation.</p> <p>Vernon was a clear Taurus. He was intelligent, dependable, logical, honest, and generous. Vernon spent most of his life focused on making his community better. He was a holder of receipts. A maker of spreadsheets. A true community historian and archivist.</p> <p>Vernon was dedicated to making people safer, both in his career in emergency management and his activist work in the fight against AIDS. He was not a stranger to controversy and was unrelenting in speaking his truth and the truth of the people he loved.</p> <p>In the years before his death, Vernon worked hard to ensure that the legacy of LGBTQ activism in Tulsa was properly recorded and preserved for current and future generations. His substantial archive is now housed in Oklahoma State University’s Archives. This collection will be witnessed by researchers and community members for years to come.</p> <p>Vernon was a connector. He worked hard to bring people together and was always willing to give someone support that needed it. Even in his death, he is connecting individuals over their shared love and respect for him and his life.</p> <p>Vernon fought hard for his community and the legacy of his late partner Phil Wiley. Anyone who knew Vernon was graced with stories of Phil’s life and legacy as well as their love for one another.</p> <p>In lieu of flowers, we ask that you remember Vernon by learning something new, taking a stand on social issues that are important to you, and keeping his life and legacy alive through storytelling.</p> <p>Vernon’s memorial service will take place March 1^st<span> </span>at 11 AM at Butler-Stumpff &amp; Dyer Funeral Home (<a href="https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&amp;&amp;p=bfe3dfa29743f8d2JmltdHM9MTcwODY0NjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0xYTQ3OGQzZC1hYmNmLTYxMWUtMDhjNC05ZjI0YWFiYTYwNDUmaW5zaWQ9NTc0Nw&amp;ptn=3&amp;ver=2&amp;hsh=3&amp;fclid=1a478d3d-abcf-611e-08c4-9f24aaba6045&amp;u=a1L21hcHM_Jm1lcGk9MTIzfn5Vbmtub3dufkFkZHJlc3NfTGluayZ0eT0xOCZxPUJ1dGxlci1TdHVtcGZmJTIwJTI2JTIwRHllciUyMEZ1bmVyYWwlMjBIb21lJTIwJTI2JTIwQ3JlbWF0b3J5JnNzPXlwaWQuWU43MDl4MTIzMDIxMzUmcHBvaXM9MzYuMTU2OTEzNzU3MzI0MjJfLTk1Ljk2MTc5OTYyMTU4MjAzX0J1dGxlci1TdHVtcGZmJTIwJTI2JTIwRHllciUyMEZ1bmVyYWwlMjBIb21lJTIwJTI2JTIwQ3JlbWF0b3J5X1lONzA5eDEyMzAyMTM1fiZjcD0zNi4xNTY5MTR-LTk1Ljk2MTgmdj0yJnNWPTEmRk9STT1NUFNSUEw&amp;ntb=1">2103 E 3rd St, Tulsa, OK 74104</a>).</p> PDF Text Text 1/8/26, 1:44 PM Vernon Leon Jones - Butler-Stumpff & Dyer Funeral Home & Crematory  Vernon Leon Jones May 03, 1935 - February 05, 2024 Share:    Obituary Event & Services Charities & Donations Gallery Videos https://www.butler-stumpff.com/obituaries/vernon-leon-jones/ 1/4 �1/8/26, 1:44 PM Vernon Leon Jones - Butler-Stumpff & Dyer Funeral Home & Crematory Guestbook Send Flowers Obituary Vernon Leon Jones, 88, of Tulsa, Oklahoma, left this earthly plane to be with his late partner Phil Wiley, on February 5th, 2024. He was born in Oklahoma, on May 3rd, 1935. As a gay man, born and raised here, Vernon’s chosen family is vast. He is survived by Hayward Jones, Nekesha Jones, JaKobe Jones, Sue Davis, Fred Hilliard, Arlowe Clementine, Mason Thomas, Rey Thomas, and so many other individuals that claimed Vernon as their friend, family, and elder. Vernon was an active learner, even in his later years. He was always working to understand the world around him and was eternally hopeful for a better world. He was a strong advocate for marginalized peoples and was particularly committed to Queer and Black Liberation. Vernon was a clear Taurus. He was intelligent, dependable, logical, honest, and generous. Vernon spent most of his life focused on making his community better. He was a holder of receipts. A maker of spreadsheets. A true community historian and archivist. Vernon was dedicated to making people safer, both in his career in emergency management and his activist work in the fight against AIDS. He was not a stranger to controversy and was unrelenting in speaking his truth and the truth of the people he loved. In the years before his death, Vernon worked hard to ensure that the legacy of LGBTQ activism in Tulsa was properly recorded and preserved for current and future generations. His substantial archive is now housed in Oklahoma State University’s Archives. This collection will be witnessed by researchers and community members for years to come. Vernon was a connector. He worked hard to bring people together and was always willing to give someone support that needed it. Even in his death, he is connecting individuals over their shared love and respect for him and his life. Vernon fought hard for his community and the legacy of his late partner Phil Wiley. Anyone who knew Vernon was graced with stories of Phil’s life and legacy as well as their love for one another. In lieu of flowers, we ask that you remember Vernon by learning something new, taking a stand on social issues that are important to you, and keeping his life and legacy alive through storytelling. https://www.butler-stumpff.com/obituaries/vernon-leon-jones/ 2/4 �1/8/26, 1:44 PM Vernon Leon Jones - Butler-Stumpff & Dyer Funeral Home & Crematory Vernon’s memorial service will take place March 1st at 11 AM at Butler-Stumpff & Dyer Funeral Home (2103 E 3rd St, Tulsa, OK 74104). ABOUT US “We will always be kind and we will never take advantage of you or your family at your saddest time” is our promise to you. General Price List BUTLER-STUMPFF & DYER FUNERAL HOME & CREMATORY  2103 E 3rd St Tulsa, OK 74104  (918) 587-7000  info@butler-stumpff.com  Available 24/7 https://www.butler-stumpff.com/obituaries/vernon-leon-jones/ 3/4 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2007] Vernon Jones Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcription of Laura Belmonte’s interview of Vernon Jones conducted on February 28, 2007. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong><strong> </strong>Vernon was born on May 3, 1935, near Tulsa and passed on February 5, 2024 in Tulsa. He enlisted in the Air Force and served for four years in the military in cryptographic operations, including two years stationed in Japan. After thirteen years of marriage and two daughters, Vernon came out to his wife and family. He and his partner, Phil Wiley, were co-founders of the Tulsa Gay Alliance in 1971, and they volunteered with the Tulsa Suicide Prevention Hotline. He worked in emergency management. In the mid-1970’s. He served on a task force within the Tulsa Human Rights Commission to research consideration of ordinance changes to address LGBT discrimination. Vernon left his archives to Oklahoma State University. A copy of his October 10, 2021, interview as a part of OSU’s Diverse Gender and Sexuality of Oklahoma Oral History Project is included in Vernon’s oral history folder at OkEq. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 28, 2007 Subject The topic of the resource Vernon Jones Oral History Project Interview from February 28, 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Laura Belmonte, Vernon Jones, Lindsey Killebrew, Matthew D. Williams, Dennis Neill 2007 available at Center Butler-Stumpff & Dyer Funeral Home Butler-Stumpff and Dyer Butler-Stumpff and Dyer Funeral Home Dennis Neill interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Lindsey Killebrew Matthew D. Williams Matthew Williams Obituaries Obituary OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript transcript Vernon Jones Vernon Leon Jones video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2004] Dwight Kealiher Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 25, 2004 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on July 25, 2004. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Dwight Kealiher was born in Tulsa and lived in Poteau, Sallisaw, Sulphur, Ada, and Checotah. He grew up in a Southern Baptist family, living a pretty typical small-town life. 6 After graduating from Checotah High School, he enrolled at Oklahoma State University (then, Oklahoma A&amp;M College) in 1955 as a business major. After college, he married a girl he knew from Checotah, staying married for twenty years and having three sons. During that time, however, Dwight also fully recognized that he was gay. Also after college, he spent six months, active duty, at Fort Leonard Wood in the National Guard. He then moved to Tulsa where he fulfilled the remaining five and a half years in the Reserves of his six-year commitment and got a job with a CPA firm. He took some accounting classes at University of Tulsa and later passed the CPA exam, and in 1989, he ventured out on his own, opening his own office in Tulsa. Over the years, he’s been active in local LGBTQ+ support groups such as Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (now Oklahomans for Equality), Regional AIDS Interfaith Network (RAIN), Tulsa Cares, and Health Outreach Prevention Education (HOPE), along with being a successful businessman. Subject The topic of the resource Dwight Kealiher Oral History Project Interview from July 25, 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dwight Kealiher, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2004 available at Center Dwight Kealiher H.O.P.E. Health Outreach Prevention and Education (H.O.P.E.) HOPE interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU RAIN Regional AIDS Interfaith Network (RAIN) TOHR transcript TU Tulsa CARES Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) University of Tulsa video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2019] Dwight Kealiher Interview Subject The topic of the resource Dwight Kealiher OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Interview from February 13, 2019 Description An account of the resource Dwight was interviewed on February 13, 2019, by Oklahoma State University as part of its Diverse Sexuality and Gender Oral History Project. Dwight discusses his early life, experiences at Oklahoma State University (the Oklahoma A&amp;M College) in the 1950s, his marriage and family and later coming out. As a CPA in Tulsa, he reviews his long-time association with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (now Oklahomans for Equality,) Regional AIDS Interfaith Network (RAIN), Tulsa Cares and Health Outreach Prevention Education (HOPE). Dwight was born on August 15, 1937, in Checotah, Oklahoma and passed on August 15, 2024. <strong>A copy of the transcript is on file in the History Project Archives at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center.</strong> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dwight Kealiher, Angus Henderson, Allison Richmond, Micki White, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 13, 2019 2019 Allison Richmond Angus Henderson available at Center Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Dwight Kealiher H.O.P.E. Health Outreach Prevention and Education (H.O.P.E.) HOPE interview Micki White Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahoma State University Archives oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU OSU Archives OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project RAIN Regional AIDS Interfaith Network (RAIN) TOHR transcript Tulsa CARES Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2006] Kelly Kirby Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 6, 2006 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on May 6, 2006. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Born on November 25, 1953, he graduated from high school in 1971. Faced with a draft number of 25, Kelly joined the Air Force in 1972. While very closeted during his service, while based in California, he would make trips to Santa Barbara and a few other locations to some bars and on occasion attended the Metropolitan Community Church in Santa Barbara as he was dealing with his sexual orientation. After leaving the military in 1975, he returned to Kansas and got involved with a cult Christian Group, The Way. In 1977, he married and they had 4 children. In 1980, they moved to Oklahoma City, he soon started a CPA practice and by 1986 relocated to Tulsa. He joined Homosexuals Anonymous as part of dealing with his conflicts with sexuality, family and religion. In 1990, his wife and Kelly agreed to separate and eventually divorce. He became an HIV tester with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights in 1991 and discusses his further involvement with the gay community and TOHR, serving on the board in the early 1990s and treasurer, president and later serving as TOHR’s accountant. He became active with the local PFLAG Chapter and with the support of Nancy McDonald, joined the national board of PFLAG in 1993. He reviews the difficult environment in the 1993-1994 time period when the Tulsa Human Rights Commission proposed some ordinance changes to address LGBTQ discrimination. Subject The topic of the resource Kelly Kirby Oral History Project Interview from May 6, 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kelly Kirby, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2006 AIDS/HIV Air Force available at Center discrimination HIV HIV testing HIV/AIDs Homosexuals Anonymous interview Kelly Kirby Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Metropolitan Community Church Nancy McDonald OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) PFLAG PFLAG Tulsa Chapter The Way TOHR TOHR Board of Directors transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Board of Directors Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights HIV Testing video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/b418b81f6d3161bea3adbd38969f2ee7.mp4 6ef8807e5b1b421285ba179ca06e3042 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/56ba85886deb39b4fd73cb848661163a.pdf 9d05b88c5606cc5f8d604ff051d3c330 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Kelly Kirby Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: April 9th, 2025 Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video February 17, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Kelly Kirby Keywords LGBTQ, equality, inclusion, military service, advocacy, personal journey, Kelly Kirby, Oklahoma, history Takeaways ● Kelly Kirby shares his journey of self-discovery and acceptance. ● He became aware of his sexual orientation at a young age. ● Military service provided a unique perspective on identity and acceptance. ● Kelly faced challenges in relationships due to societal expectations. ● He became an advocate for LGBTQ rights in his community. ● His experiences shaped his views on equality and inclusion. ● Kelly's family played a significant role in his life and advocacy. ● He faced threats and discrimination for being openly gay. ● Kelly's involvement in various organizations highlights his commitment to advocacy. ● His reflections on life emphasize the importance of authenticity and acceptance. Summary 2 �This conversation with Kelly Kirby explores his life journey, from his early awareness of his sexual orientation to his military service and subsequent advocacy for LGBTQ rights. Kelly shares personal stories about his family, relationships, and the challenges he faced as an openly gay man in Oklahoma. His commitment to equality and inclusion is evident through his involvement in various organizations and his reflections on the importance of authenticity in one's life. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Kelly Kirby and Background 02:53 Early Life and Education 06:08 Family Dynamics and Community Influence 09:08 Awareness of Sexual Orientation 12:07 Coming Out and Early Relationships 15:00 Military Experience and Identity 17:50 Life in the Military and Relationships 20:53 Navigating Identity in a Conservative Environment 40:01 Exploring the Diversity of Gay Bars 44:00 Life in the Military: Relationships and Identity 46:57 Awareness of Military Policies and Purges 50:13 Navigating Personal Identity and Family Dynamics 53:48 The Impact of Religious Beliefs on Sexual Identity 01:00:00 Transitioning from Religious Constraints to Self-Acceptance 01:05:01 The Journey of Self-Discovery and Acceptance 01:09:59 Building a New Life: Career and Family Dynamics 01:14:59 Reflections on World AIDS Day and Personal Advocacy 01:20:57 Coming Out and Embracing Identity 01:21:54 Leadership in LGBTQ+ Organizations 01:29:15 Media Representation and Advocacy 01:34:09 Challenges of Visibility and Advocacy 01:39:08 Recognition and Legacy 01:46:06 Family Life and Personal Relationships 3 �01:48:12 Final Thoughts and Community Involvement Kelly Kirby Oral History Interview 2025 Toby Jenkins: Good afternoon, can you tell me your name? Kelly Kirby: Kelly Kirby, K-E-L-L-Y-K-I-R-B-Y. Toby Jenkins: And we're here in your beautiful home, and we wanted to be in front of this beautiful portrait back here that you have, I just love it, kind of fits with our theme today, we're talking about equality and inclusion and LGBTQ history in this part of the country. How old are you, and when were you born? Kelly Kirby: I'm 71, I was born in 1953. Toby Jenkins: And where were you born? Kelly Kirby: Pittsburgh, Kansas. Toby Jenkins: Pittsburgh, Kansas. How did you, what brought you to Oklahoma? Kelly Kirby: Well, after grad school, college, Philips Petroleum recruited me, and so I came to Bartlesville, and then, after a year, I was like, I don't want this kind of a career, and so I went to a tax accountant down in Oklahoma City, and worked for him for a couple years, and then I hung out my shingle, and that was in 1982. And, yeah, and that was in Oklahoma City, and ultimately, in 1986, I moved up here because I had more clients in Tulsa than Oklahoma City, and I've been here ever since, 1986. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been, you were a CPA. Kelly Krby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Where did you graduate high school, Pittsburgh? Kelly Kirby: Well, so Pittsburgh State University is one of the state colleges, but they had a teacher school when it was first started, and so I went to a, what I would call, guinea pig school, because we were on the campus, and I went, my kindergarten through my master's in business administration in that same campus. Toby Jenkins: Now, were, was this open to everybody, or did you have to have some kind of unusual academic achievement, or did they see promise in you that you were allowed to attend this particular school, this private school on this campus? Kelly Kirby: Right, well, it was the balance of the students, which were almost, I would say, in any given year, 30 students on each grade level, from K to 12, and about half of them, I would say, were kids of somebody that had something to do with the university, professors, et cetera, kids, and then the other half was from the community of Pittsburgh. So, Pittsburgh is 20,000 people, but we also had 7,000 students on that campus. 4 �Toby Jenkins: Now, what did your parents do in this community? Was this where they had always lived? I mean, were they associated with the university? Kelly Kirby: No, my dad actually grew up in Iowa on a farm, and he, in World War II, he came to Pittsburgh, Kansas to a flying school, and then when he was there, he met my mom, and then he went off to war, and then came back and married her, and she was there, that was her home at Pittsburgh where she was born. Toby Jenkins: And what did your father do for a career after he got out of the military? Kelly Kirby: Well, he actually stayed in the military reserve as an officer. So he had, I don't know, one weekend a month that he had to go a couple of days or something like that, and then a couple of weeks once a year. And he did that for twenty-five or six or seven years. I forget exactly how many. But then also, he went on to become a postman. And that thing came from my mother's side of the thing, because her dad, her uncle, her mother, my grandma, my grandpa, my uncle, great-uncles, and all that, were all in the Postal Service. So my dad retired in the mid-'60s from the military and in the mid-'70s from the post office and had two pensions. Toby Jenkins: Now, did your mother work outside the home, or did she? Kelly Kirby: Well, so my mother was a telephone, what do you call it? Toby Jenkins: Operator? Kelly Kirby: Operator, yeah, exactly. And this was, you know, is this Mrs., you know? If you think Lily Tomlin, that was my mother. Toby Jenkins: One ringy dingy. Kelly Kirby: Yes, exactly, exactly. They started having kids. They had three together. My older sister Susie was born in 47. And so six years later, I came along. And then Linda was the last, and she was born in 56. Susie now still lives in Joplin. Linda's in Wichita, and I'm in Tulsa. So we're still, none of us are still in Pittsburgh, but we're, it's an easy way to see each other. And we have good… Toby Jenkins: Now, I'm just curious, what year did you technically graduate from high school, even though you were going to this school on the Pittsburgh campus? Kelly Kirby: 1971 was when I got my, and I want to just put a little piece in here. My mother died when I was five. And, you know, Linda and Susie being the same amount of, she had cancer, and she died at the age of 36. My dad remarried three years later to a widow whose husband had been killed in a fire. And she came along with a son, one child. It's 10 years older than me. So I have a brother also, although he is now deceased. But so that was four kids, and we just meshed. And so I just wanted to put that in there. Toby Jenkins: Now, did your father and your stepmother have any children together? Kelly Kirby: No. 5 �Toby Jenkins: OK, well, I was going to ask you, you graduated in 1971. You went to this school that was on Pittsburgh State University's campus. Was it integrated? Kelly Kirby: Yes, I would say. I don't think that I could say what their policy was. But the kids that were in my classroom, you know, they might be from the Far East or the Near East because of the university. And there was a Black family back across the alley from where in our house was six blocks from the university. So I mean, we just I didn't really know what integration was. It just was, looking back. We're going to get to this, but I, in 1972, after one first semester of college, I enlisted in the United States Air Force. Vietnam was going on, and anyway, and my dad was military, so it was kind of that, and I was going to, my dad flew, actually, because that, I told you before, and so I thought, oh, well, I want to go be in the Air Force and be a pilot. Then I went into the Air Force, totally integrated, I mean, I don't know, somebody may have other, I don't want to make it all whatever, but for the time, I guess, I don't know, but it was just, color was blind to me. Toby Jenkins: So you had gone to school, even though you had gone to school in the 60s, you don't remember integration being an issue, unlike it was here in Tulsa, where they were threatened if they didn't integrate, they were going to force them, they were going to force them to. Kelly Kirby: I don't think that the university would have to have done that. I don't know what, before me, or whatever, and there was, Pittsburgh had two other schools also, one was the public school, and they also had a Catholic school, so there's, there were three, you know, full K through 12 in town. Don't know about, I had some friends from the other schools, but I don't really, I couldn't say what it was like for them, but for me, I, when I really, I guess maybe, probably in the latter 60s, I became aware, I suppose, of people that were being discriminated against. Toby Jenkins: So we talked a little bit about how you came to Oklahoma, I'm just curious, when were you aware of, how do you, what is your sexual orientation, how do you identify? Kelly Kirby: I'm gay. Toby Jenkins: Gay. Kelly Kirby: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: When did you become aware of that? I mean, were you in high school, college? Kelly Kirby: Well, I'll tell you what, I would say, a light went on that I couldn't decipher of what it was, when my cousin got his elbow, no, he had his arm broken in a football field and during a game, and I went with my dad and my uncle and into the, the locker room, yeah, which I had not been in one of those, and this would, I would have only been 11, and yeah. Toby Jenkins: So the awareness of male bodies. 6 �Kelly Kirby: Yes, exactly. Toby Jenkins: So you would have had that awareness, you went to college there, and you were in the military and all of these, you were still quite young. Any awareness, like, on the campus, on the college campus, were you aware of other gay people? Kelly Kirby: Well, the first time, actually, that I was, I was around them, but I didn't actually know that that was what was going on until...I'm trying to think about when I want to say that. Let's see, Christmas of 1970. Susie left Pittsburgh and went to live in Omaha for three years. And after she was partway through her college as well, her college, because remember she’s six years older than me. So, we all got degrees from that university as well. And but she had a layout period and she came back at Christmas. And I had been going into this bar in Pittsburgh, Kansas, I think I started going in 1969. And it was like a pizza place. And it was just called the Alley. And it was like a downstairs thing in the in the downtown. Twenty thousand people. Kansas and not only for Kansas, you know, but anyway, I started going in there. It wasn't until I said I'd been, maybe 68, 69, 70, but in the 70, Susie and I, we went out and I told her I had this little bar that I could get into because it was Kansas was 18 beer. Although I was not I was going in there when I was 15. But but because of the pizza, it was kind of like a little…. it was Susie and I, we wanted to go out just and just have a time for ourselves. And so we went in there and in the bar was not very busy and we sat at the bar and the guy that was behind the bar Susie graduated from high school. And as as we drove home, to my parents home after we came out of the Alley, she said, do you know that this man is gay? I don't know exactly what words, but the bartender? And so, you know, it's kind of like, where do you get the information in that young place and, you know, no Will and Grace. No, none of that. You know, there really wasn't much of anything good or bad. It was just there. Toby Jenkins: But when she said this to you, I'm not sure exactly what your age was, you said it was Christmas 1970. Kelly Kirby: So I would have just turned 17. Toby Jenkins: So you hadn't went into the military yet. When she said, did you know he's gay, you knew what that meant or you had more questions about it? Kelly Kirby: I can't be that really exactly what that is. But yeah, I don't know that I could pinpoint, but it started something that it was to me. I'll tell you what, I think this is probably the best way to say it. It was I was curious. And so I started going down to the Alley. Sometimes I'd been going with buddies or whatever, whatever. But I just went down there by myself. And I went several times. I don't know. I did probably when I could get out to that place. I went down there. And so about….It was March, so not quite three months, a guy came and sat down by me in the bar and he had seen me in there. He was also a friend of my sister's from the university. And I guess I had a date. I didn't know that that's what it was, anything to call it. But we went to the movies. Went with this guy. We went back to the bar on Saturday night. And then on Sunday, we got in my car and went out in the country just outside of Pittsburgh or whatever. And and then my car. So something happened. I don't know…I ran out of gas or something. My car 7 �quit. And so we went to a farmhouse and got somebody to one of his friends to bring it back to Pittsburg. And so the friend, I don't remember the name, Larry. Larry is the guy that was I was talking to. I don't remember the other guy's name. But anyway, we went back to this guy's house. This guy disappeared and Larry got me in bed. Toby Jenkins: That was your first… So you had car broke down and you that was your first same sex intimate romance. Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: OK. So Pittsburgh, Kansas. Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Kelly Kirby kissed a boy and decided he liked it. Kelly Kirby: Yeah. And a little bit more than kiss. Toby Jenkins: So you were there and going to school. You left school to go into the service military service. Well, I want to know about that. Kelly Kirby: March of 71, I met Larry, and I sent Susie a letter and said, told her that I had a boyfriend that it was, and it was him, Larry. And she came back from Omaha for just for a weekend and just to see what's going on with Kelly. And so, you know, we, in the long run, my sisters were just so helpful. And, and we were three kids with, we lost our mother. And, you know, there's a, there's a stepmother and all that. But, but we were just really, we were tight. I mean we're still very close. And so Susie and I talked to Linda about it. Susie must have told me it might not be good to tell our parents. And there's a long story about that, and that's not necessary. That's, that's enough said about that. So I didn't come out to my parents then, but I did go back to school, a senior, 17 years old, and I started telling some of my friends that I was gay. I don't even know really what the hell that was, but I did kind of. And Larry was a two or three weeks thing. I was like, I clutched to him and, and it was like, he wasn't ready for clutch. He stayed nice to me and all that stuff. But I was going down there [the Alley]. I didn't know, but I went in there on like 10 o'clock on Saturday night. And there's men dancing and in Pittsburgh, Kansas. So I came out to a group of people at that time. I didn't know a hell lot, a lot more than, than what they did, but most of them were interested. And like my whole class knew that I was gay, Whatever they were saying behind my back, I don't know, but nobody punched me in the nose or called...Well, I actually did have a, one guy called me a queer and that was when I was 16 and it was in school showers, guy here in the, in the shower. And I'm looking at him and he said, what are you looking at queer? So that was the first time I know that, that word even, you know, anyway, sorry, sidebar. Toby Jenkins: No, but important. Kelly Kirby: Yes. Yeah, exactly. 8 �Toby Jenkins: First time you really felt public shame or, or him trying to humiliate you because he, so I think that's an important part for all of us. First time we felt public humiliation because of something about us that we don't even realize people can see.. Remarkable that you, your sister may not have understood it, but supported it and that you were out to kids in your high school. Kelly Kirby: Well, Susie, I obviously had some friends that were gay and from college. Toby Jenkins: Now question, do you feel like perhaps the fact that you were on an academic campus, a university setting, which would have emphasized liberal arts and probably more progressive thoughts? I mean, I keep saying this, Kansas, Pittsburgh, Kansas, middle of the country. You think you probably were in a bubble of awareness that maybe somebody else living in Kansas wouldn't have even… Kelly Kirby: I don't know. I know that I can say I had a really good education. I didn't know that's what I had. I just figured everybody that went to school got what I got. And you are right. It was liberal and inclusive. I don't know about homosexuality, but at least it worked in race and those sort of things. Maybe not the whole town, but the campus was largely that way. Toby Jenkins: So you went into the military. Kelly Kirby: Right. Toby Jenkins: I know it was the Vietnam War. Were you drafted? Kelly Kirby: No.Drafting then was kind of like a bingo where the letters come out and they put all the birthdays in the bucket. And the order that the numbers come out were the person who was most likely to be drafted. And the year before me, the highest one, it was 90 out of 365, of course. That's everybody's birthdays, actually. Toby Jenkins: But you weren't drafted. Kelly Kirby: I was not. Toby Jenkins: Were you in the ROTC at the university? Kelly Kirby: I enlisted. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Kelly Kirby: I enlisted because my birthday was pulled out of the hat by number 25. And so it was imminent that I would be, would be… my brother had been drafted. My two cousins had been drafted and all older than me. And I wanted what my dad did. And that wouldn't be Army or Navy. One of my cousins was in the Navy. But what I wanted was, I wanted to fly. I wanted to be a flyer. Toby Jenkins: Right. Kelly Kirby: And anyway, so I went in the Air Force. 9 �Toby Jenkins: I have a question. So already you are kind of aware that you are sexually attracted to your own sex. You're homosexual. You've already had some gay intimate moments. And you decide to go into the military. Was there, and surely you're aware that at that time you were going to be questioned about your sexuality as an induction? They were going to ask you, were you homosexual? Kelly Kirby: Well, I did. They did. I didn't know they were going to, but they did. Toby Jenkins: Oh, you weren't aware. Kelly Kirby: Yeah, I wasn't aware they were going to do it, but they did. And I just denied. You know, I said no. I answered the question no, and then they went on. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Well, that was, you weren't aware that they were going to ask that. So you get into it. Kelly Kirby: Right. Toby Jenkins: Where did you go to basic? Kelly Kirby: Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio. I was there for a couple months. Then I went to Keesler, it's in Mississippi, on the coast. And I knew some guys in basic that were gay. I knew some people in, and actually what I would call have boyfriends in training for a couple of months or a little over that. All clandestine…That was it. I was strictly from 17 to 21, and we'll get to that. But I was only dated men. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So you went through basic, then did you become a pilot? Kelly Kirby: Well, no, actually they had too many. Because it was kind of running, winding down a little bit. What they needed was more, they didn't need white boy me. I couldn't go to flying school. They needed blacks orToby Jenkins: Or Latinos. Kelly Kirby: Yeah, because they did have actually integrated the military at that time. And… Toby Jenkins: So they saw the importance of diversity and, yeah. Kelly Kirby: Or there was, I mean, you look at Johnson and Nixon. Those were the years where a whole lot of thatToby Jenkins: Affirmative action programs. Kelly Kirby: Exactly. Toby Jenkins: So where did you get assigned? Kelly Kirby: So I got, I had a desk for the Air Force. I was administrative, and I was in assignments. Basically, I was, my job was to do, assign other people to do whatever. So my first duty station was Vandenberg in California. It's on the ocean. And so there was a gay guy in my little pod there. And so we kind of had friends. And an hour away was 10 �Santa Barbara. And so I would go on the weekend to the gay bars down in Santa Barbara. And I had some boyfriends or whatever. Toby Jenkins: And did you go with another group of gay guys from your base? Like y'all had made friends, or did you just drive down there by yourself? Kelly Kirby: Mostly myself. Toby Jenkins: And when you got down there, Kelly, did you ever see other military personnel who were down in Santa Barbara? I mean, did you, because that's what, about 45 miles away? Kelly Kirby: Yeah, it's about an hour, yeah, so. Toby Jenkins: I mean, was the purpose of going there, was so that you could put some distance between you andKelly Kirby: Well, it's where the gay bar is. I was aware, particularly, too, for the women. The lesbians, you know, we all had to hang together and be helpful to each other and put up for each other and be damn quiet about it. Toby Jenkins: So you knew lesbian women in the military? Kelly Kirby: Oh, yeah, in my office. Toby Jenkins: Wow, impressive. And you kind of covered for each other? Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Did you have a boyfriend when you were in the military? Kelly Kirby: I had several. Toby Jenkins: Okay. I got, I just, out of curiosity, that gay bar that you went to, kind of describe what it was like, the environment. Kelly Kirby: I mean- You're talking about back in Pittsburgh or in- Santa Barbara. Toby Jenkins: Santa Barbara. Because to me, you're in a larger urban area. Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: It's on the West Coast. Kelly Kirby: Where the age was 21, which I was not, but I could still get in. Toby Jenkins: So we kind of, in our mind, we kind of imagine what a gay bar looks like today. So was this an integrated space? Were there people of all races in this bar? Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: What about genders? Were there female persons, male persons? Did you see cross-dressers, transsexuals, transgender persons? 11 �Kelly Kirby: As to the latter two, that was not a thing that you knew that somebody was. I mean, who is it that was? There was somebody in, went to Sweden, or, and that's 1969, is that right? Toby Jenkins: Christine Jorgensen Kelly Kirby: and that's 1969, is that right? Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Kelly Kirby: It's not as big a thing. Toby Jenkins: So would there have been cross-dressers in the bar? Kelly Kirby: Maybe. Toby Jenkins: But male persons and female persons were in the same bar. Kelly Kirby: I think they were probably the girls had one bar and the guys had about three in Santa Barbara at that time, and that's probably where they- but that doesn't mean they didn't go into the other. Toby Jenkins: Or were there drag queens performing? Kelly Kirby: No, not that I recall. Toby Jenkins: Okay, what about leather fetish, kink identities? Were those playing out in the clubs at the time? Kelly Kirby: A man from Los Angeles came into the bar in Santa Barbara and I had an office job, so eight to five, got my weekends off. This guy said: you know, would you like to come down to…You know you want to come down and spend the night and I'll show you around on Saturday. I think he was probably 40, and I was 18 or 19 by that time. I couldn't tell you his name and I was the only one who probably saw him maybe once before, but I got exposed to some of the leather king, fetish and and probably the drag queens and and some of that. I don't know how much. Toby Jenkins: You're in the military. And then how did the rest of your life play out with that, your career, your military career, your, your relationships? Kelly Kirby: So I was at Vandenberg for a year and a half. I was in a short assignment of, I think, about four or five months in Omaha and by that time, I was at the place where I went to the bar in Omaha and met a guy there. And, we just kind of hit it off, and three months we were going on. And then when I was going back to Vandenberg, he came with me, and we were going to get an apartment. And so, that's where I was. In the end, that didn't really work out. My next assignment, after another four or five months in California, I went to Eielson Air Force Base in Fairbanks, Alaska. So that was my last place, duty station. And I was there for 13 months or something like that. Toby Jenkins: Were there gay people in Alaska? 12 �Kelly Kirby: Yes, yes, there was a gay bar in Fairbanks, a town of 40,000, which was the second biggest town in Alaska at the time. The pipeline, I don't know if you know that or have any… So they were building it, and it went across the base. So there's all these men that go or were here and going up the line. And, oh, I had a boyfriend that was an Eskimo. I mean… Toby Jenkins: An indigenous person. Kelly Kirby: Yeah, exactly. At least I had some dates with him. And he took me around up to the Arctic Circle. And, you know, we went to a hotel and stuff like that, spent the weekends and everything. Toby Jenkins: Now, Kelly, I'm curious. To me, you sound like your life was pretty comfortable. Were you aware e of people being kicked out of the military because they were gay? Kelly Kirby: Oh, yes. So there was an officer who got caught fucking an airman, and he got sent to Leavenworth, like prison. So, yeah, I was aware of that. Toby Jenkins: Because of the rank? Kelly Kirby: Because of the rank and because you don't fraternize, the enlisted people and the officers. They're, you know, whatever. But so, yeah, I knew what was out. And after, let's see, I left Vandenberg in June of 74. And in August of 74, they had a clean house witch hunt. And 110 people male and female were purged from the with bad dishonorable discharge. Toby Jenkins: This would have been what year? Did you say 74? Kelly Kirby: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And that was in San Diego or? Kelly Kirby: It was Vandenberg. Vandenberg. Yeah, that's where I was. So, you know, I could have been swept up into that, except I was three months gone. Toby Jenkins: Do you think some of the people told on the other people for reduced sentences? Kelly Kirby: Yeah, there might be. Actually, I think there were plants and things like that, or somebody that got caught. They want them to get to tell on other people. And they will give you this or I'll give you a general instead of an undesirable or a dishonorable. Yeah, there's also there was those four that they can… Toby Jenkins: So just curious at this time when you were living your best life, were you and you were interacting with so many LGBT people. And also you were dealing with the military's…You could not be in the military. I mean, it was the express rule. It wasn't Don't tell you just could not be in it at all. Kelly Kirby: Yes. 13 �Toby Jenkins: Were you also aware of stuff going on nationally? I mean, like, had you heard of the Stonewall riots? Kelly Kirby: Oh, I knew that. Toby Jenkins: Have you heard of gay pride parades? Kelly Kirby: I knew about Stonewall from Pittsburgh, Kansas, at the Alley Bar. So, yes. Toby Jenkins: So you were aware of it? Kelly Kirby: Oh, yeah, I was. Toby Jenkins: Nationally, LGBT people were beginning to resist and demand. And even within the military, there was a strong advocacy to try to pressure Congress to change the rules. Kelly Kirby: Yeah. Well, OK, so let's there's one thing that I wanted to say about six months going back to when I had Larry, the boyfriend in 1971, when I was still in high school, six months in there…. I got drunk and I went home at two in the morning and my dad was sitting up waiting for me and I had a card that I had somebody given me in the Alley that said gay pride or gay… It was something gay pride or something, something I don't remember. It was gay something. Anyway, I remember. And it was like a calling card, you know. And so he's like, where have you been? What you've been doing? And I've flippantly threw the card at him. When I did that, it was like the first time I told my dad I was gay. I want to say I'll capitalize it as five minutes, 30 seconds for me to blurt it out, four and a half minutes for him to yell at me. And we never talked about it again until 20 years later. So. This holds over me through that 20 years. So, I know what's in me, but…'ll be thrown away from my family and I don’t want to say go too much about Susie. Other than she didn't go to Omaha by choice. It was by force. Toby Jenkins: This is your sister. Kelly Kirby: Yes. Kelly Kirby: And so and that was why Susie told me, don't tell your parents, because that's why she was coming back down just to see me. To just help me out and whatever. And I actually lived after I graduated from high school, I moved up to Omaha for the summer and lived with her in an apartment. Toby Jenkins: And so how long were you in the military? Kelly Kirby: Three years, one month and 21 days. Toby Jenkins: I wish you could remember the details of that. So you get out of the military, go back to school. Kelly Kirby: OK, there's a piece of this in the latter part of the going to Alaska. I had Mark, a boyfriend that I met pretty early since when I went in there and maybe a couple of weeks after. There was actually even the day that I got there, there was this guy at the gas station on base. And I was you know, I drove up there. And so I went and this gorgeous man. I just knew that he was hitting on me. And and so this first guy, my first 14 �friend, even whether or not he was gay or not, I was I was really my gaydar went like this, and I kept seeing him in the chow hall and around the base, and then he invited me to come to a, I don't remember how he encapsulated it, and what I didn't know then, until for a long time afterwards, what was going on, was a, it was a cult. It was the Way. Toby Jenkins: A religious cult? Kelly Kirby: Yes, religious cult. I went into one of some guy's room, and there was about eight or ten or twelve guys, and they had Bibles and whatever, but this guy invited me to this, and I was like, I would have done anything to get in his pants, you know, and I thought that's what he had in mind, and otherwise, it was the Way International. And so, from there, I'm 21 now, I go over some of that through my Alaska, and then, when I came back to Pittsburgh to go back to college, they had the Way, they had the chapter, and I stayed from 75 to 77. I just gradually stopped fucking guys, and, can I say that? And I started dating women. Toby Jenkins: So it was through this, this guy invited you, you had an attraction for him, but he was interested in recruiting you and proselytizing you, and so you began to buy into the Bible study and their programs and the things they were saying, had you told this group that you had been intimate with men, had you told them you were gay? Kelly Kirby: Not while I was in Alaska, but when I was in back in Pittsburgh, within the first semester, I told somebody, you know, and, you know, their thing is, if you're, if you're homosexual, you have a devil spirit, and they are making you do what you're doing, and you know, I'm, you know, why am I, why am I gay? You know, that's what, you know, that's what I have been up to that, even though through four years, I just wasn't like the Kelly Kirby that you know. I was still scared, my family…you're not going to, you'll never get a job, you'll, you know, whatever, all that stuff, and anyway, so he said, this guy that I talked to from the Way… Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you have came back to Kansas, is that right? Kelly Kirby: Right. Toby Jenkins: And you've connected to a religious group, and began to kind of discover perhaps maybe you're not going to live as a gay person. You're adopting kind of their position and I think earlier you mentioned the Way they identified it is if you act on your sexuality, if you are intimate with somebody of the same sex, it's a demon forcing you to do that, trying to control you and so the... Kelly Kirby: Right and so it's not me that's getting pleasure from this, it's the devil spirit that's in me and the devil spirit will give you some little bite of something, something that keeps you on a hook and so the only thing you can do is... I don't know exactly how the words work. I don't remember. Essentially, you get the devil spirit out of you. Toby Jenkins: Resisting. Kelly Kirby: Yeah. So, I got married. I had... 15 �Toby Jenkins: Was the person you married, were they a part of this religious group? Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: So you met your wife... Right. ...through this religious group? Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Now, I think I asked you earlier, but I just want clarification. Had you communicated to anybody in the group that you struggle with same-sex attraction? Kelly Kirby: Well, one of the guys that I, like I already said, he was the one that had told me all of this stuff. And I don't know if I told everybody. I don't think I did. I really don't, but I might in some somebody. I don't really remember exactly. I know some guys that were same thing as me. I mean, and in fact, I had some lesbians as well, but all of them were... Toby Jenkins: Ex-gay. Kelly Kirby: Yes, yeah, exactly. Toby Jenkins: So, did they dangle a carrot over you that, you know, maybe you had this issue with your father not being supportive, and you knew that society didn't support it, and that the Bible didn't support it, and God... I mean, did they dangle this carrot that there was a way that you could be normal, you could just be regular? Kelly Kirby: It wasn't the other, all of other things you said. It's just God. God will help you, and you have to be strong, and... Toby Jenkins: So, was your wife, was she from Pittsburgh? Kelly Kirby: She was, and she actually knew that I was was gay before we got married, and I'll say, and to give her some... I don't know what to say, what an adjective. She knew that I was. I was not the one to tell her. It was somebody else, and I... She knew that I was trying not to be. Let's put it that way, and I didn't have sex with a man for 13 years. I was monogamous with her. The one and one time only, I found a porno magazine that I... I don't remember how I found it, and then I was like, ah, and I was like, I was taste, taste, you know, it was like, this is like 10 years into my marriage, and I hid it, and I looked at it, and I, and it just ate me up, and I threw it away, but it's still, that thing was there, and... Toby Jenkins: Do you remember the magazine? Was it Blue Boy? Kelly Kirby: It could have been... Kelly Kirby: Playgirl? Toby Jenkins: Maybe a Playgirl magazine. Kelly Kirby: That's possible. Toby Jenkins: They had started showing full frontal nudity. 16 �Kelly Kirby: Yes, yeah. If you want to know what was the turning point for me was... The head of the Way died in 1985. It came apart. A lot of the people that I knew, in fact a whole lot of people that we socialized and all that started seeing that we had been lied to and et cetera. Some of them may split off and have still that kind of... But about a year or so after he died Joyce and I pulled out of the Way and we went to go to a… Toby Jenkins: Counselor. Kelly Kirby: Thank you. A while we went for couples and the guy that was doing it once, he was on 35th and Harvard at one of those... Is it a Methodist church there? They had some kind of a bunch of... You could get counseling there for a small amount of money. And basically he said you've got a good marriage. I don't see that you really need this. And we of course had to undo a lot of the not just the gay, but just the whole thing of the Way. But... In the end the thing that I got to was after about 12, 18 months is here's what…I mean if somebody told me that this is how you get out of being gay and you'll never be and you'll be fine. And if they lied to me with that, then what about everything else? What did they do to me? I got into my own... Not with Joyce, but just me in counseling. And over a three-year period I just figured out that first of all I said instead of... I went from it's not okay for anybody to be gay to gay is okay for some people, just not for Kelly. And then I went to a different person and then that's when I just really could pull out what I was and said I'm gay. And there's nothing wrong with it. Not for anybody. There's people that are bad people, but that's not the point. I went to some support groups, SSA and things like that, and that was like, okay, that's not me, it's not, it's, I'm not a sex addict. I'm a very... Toby Jenkins: SSA is Sexual Survivors, Sexual Anonymous, Sex Anonymous. Kelly Kirby: Sex Addicts Anonymous. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: It's like AA, but it's for... Kelly Kirby: Yes, exactly. Toby Jenkins: For people who feel like they have sex addictions. Kelly Kirby: Yes, exactly. And I, some of my gay friends in town here, I met in a group. Toby Jenkins: And so you had come to Tulsa, you started out in Oklahoma City, came to Tulsa. Had you already started, established your CPA firm by then? Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And you, how many children did you have? Kelly Kirby: All of them. Toby Jenkins: Four. You had four children. Kelly Kirby: Yeah, yeah, four children. Yeah. 17 �Toby Jenkins: And you're married, in your business, and you're going to get help, professional help. Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And you, in a course of three years... Kelly Kirby: The reason is I had more clients here. There was one big client that I had, a client that I had had almost for 10 years or eight years. When they had five people on, they had up to now 100 employees, and they were just…was just going wild. Anyway, in terms of getting big, the owners then decided that they wanted to sell it, and I was their accountant. I was in their building, and I was doing accounting work for them two days a week. And three days a week, I have an office, and I can do taxes and whatever. So, that's kind of how I got to Tulsa. So they wanted to sell it. Three of the five that were there eight years ago…these three guys came to me and said, Charlie wants to sell, and I said, yeah, I know. And he says, well, we'd like to buy it. Do you think we could do that? And I was like, yeah, you could. There's capital here. I mean, the kids, these three men, they didn't have any more money than I did. They had kids and a house, but they probably lived week to week or whatever. But I found a way for them, and they said to me, they went out and came back and said, if you can make this work, then we'll give you 10%. So, they had each one of those three got 30%. I got 1%, or 10%. So, going on, that was 89. In 91, I'm out of the house from Joyce and whatever. Toby Jenkins: So, y'all separated or divorced? Kelly Kirby: Yeah, well, yeah. I left the house in 90, November. It took 15 months to get the divorce done. Toby Jenkins: How old were the kids? Kelly Kirby: So, when I went out, let's see, nine, eight, five and four. Toby Jenkins: Oh, Erin, this one was four. Kelly Kirby: Yeah, Erin. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Kelly Kirby: And anyway, jumped forth two years. No, it was one year. December 1st of 1991, World AIDS Day, I went down the road to 5th and Main… it was a candlelight... [service starting at] Bartlett Square. But it was sleeting and there was about 50 people there and we got candles, we had a little bit of something there and then we walked to the Episcopal Church, the Cathedral... Trinity. All I was doing there was just being there and walking a candle and I got my picture taken by the Tulsa World and I was on the next day's second page. And my three partners in this... I'm not going to say which company in town this is, okay, and I'll tell you why in a bit if you want. They saw the picture and the president, the new 18 �president there, we've been two years [since the sale], Charlie's gone and whatever, he said, see your picture in the paper. And I said, yes. And he said, okay. And then he came back, he left and he came back to my office a little while longer. This was all in one day. He said, there's a lot of talk coming in the office. There's a hundred people working there and they're talking. By the way, these three men are... well, actually, Charlie is also Southern Baptist. They all went to the same church. So, he came back to me again and he said, can I ask you a question? And I said, sure. And he said, Kelly, if you had an opportunity to make a statement for... If you had a chance to talk, to speak about this, of your cause, was what he said, your cause, would you do it? And I thought, hmm, that's an interesting thing. And I don't remember if he left and I went to him or whether I told him just right then. I don't know exactly. I don't remember exactly, but within hours, at least, I went back and I said, you know, I think I would. And I did. Oh, God. I wasn't going to let anybody push me anymore, and I'm not going to have any clients that don’t know that I'm gay, because I don't want to be that vulnerable, and I mean, I didn't say they had to be gay to be my clients. I just wanted them to not discriminate against me or make their questions, to be answered in a way that they don't want, and all right, let me think of this right. I came into, let's step forward a little bit. I, in the summer, or I think September, I guess, when the elections were, they asked me to be on the board, and… Toby Jenkins: For Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. Kelly Kirby: Yes. TOHR. Toby Jenkins: Today it is known as Oklahomans for Equality. Kelly Kirby: Exactly. I went on the board as, and treasurer, because I'm an accountant, and so, 93 to 94, I did that, and then they made me president, and I was for two years from 94 to 96, and then my third, or my fourth year, I was on the board. I was back to being treasurer I went back to the Disciples of Christ, Christian Church of Disciples. That was what I was raised. I was the president of District 8 for the state of Kansas of the CYF my senior year, and that includes when I came out, and I went from there to the Way, and I came back, and it's my family. The first one I went to when I came back here was Forest Park. Mike, I can't think of his last name as a minister there. Joyce and I went there with our kids, and then when we split, I wanted Joyce and the kids to have Forest Park, and I went to see where I could go, which ended up to be First Christian downtown, and that's the time that I met Richard Ziegler, and of course, you know, his son is gay. When I had a boyfriend then, Rick, we wanted to make a civil union. So, we went to Richard Ziegler and said, would you do this for us? And he said, I've never done one, but I've been waiting for somebody to ask me. We're still close. He got kicked out. And that's a whole other thing. Toby Jenkins: So, he did, he blessed your civil union. 19 �Kelly Kirby: At Harwelden. My family, my dad and my stepmother came to that. And Nancy McDonald was helpful to getting me to get my parents to come to my civil union. That's where I came from. At that time, I picked up PFLAG. Toby Jenkins: And so, Nancy McDonald was the president of PFLAG locally, but also. Kelly Kirby: She was on the [national] board. And then, she was, she, and I think by 95, I'm going to do a timeline, but I'll try to not make it, let's give you some snippets. Anyway, so I went into office of TOHR. And 20 days later, Bill Clinton got inaugurated. And on the next day, he made an executive order that being homosexual was not a reason to get kicked out of the military. And of course, he had to back down, way back down. And, you know, people say, oh, he was just, the man took the big step. And yeah, it took another two or three, however many different presidents…Took three. Well, it was him, and then George, and then Obama. The media [called the TOHR Helpline] and somebody, whoever it was, got the message and called me. And so, I called back this reporter, and I met him in Sam's Club parking lot, and did an interview. Between then and the next 15 years, I probably did 200 interviews. I did those interviews because nobody else would do it. Now, you know, if there's a, you know, 100 things to be said, it should come from 100 people. You know, instead, I was the face. I was the face of Tulsa and Nancy. Kelly Kirby: TOHR 91 to 95. In 93, the disciples contingent that had a, they have a different name now, but tell me, tell me what it was. Toby Jenkins: Disciples of Christ, they're affirming inclusive. Kelly Kirby: Yes. I went on a national board. And I did that for four years. So that was from three to 93 to 97. In 95, Nancy asked me to come on the national PFLAG, and I was, I came on as a board member in the 95, and then in 96, she became the national president. And I was a treasurer, and I was doing that for, so for seven years. So I was on the board for PFLAG. Another of the things that I've done, I hate saying that. I feel like I'm trying my best. I did this because it needed to be done, and I wanted to do it. So, anyway, maybe that's why people ask me. I don't know. Toby Jenkins: Well, at that time, visibility was critical to our survival, as it is today. And for someone to be visible in Oklahoma, they could either lose their jobs, be disowned by their families, or kicked out of their church, and you had already traversed all of that. You were self-employed, you were in an affirming church, and your family already was aware. So you had those credentials that made you be able to be more visible. Was it during this time that you served on the ACLU board in the state of Oklahoma? Kelly Kirby: So, no, I was on PFLAG, then…Another church, it was another Disciples they did camp, they sent people into camps and summer camps for youth. And you know, that was like any kind of a cause that the church should be cognizant about and it was like that. And I was on the National Board for 8 years on that one. It wasn't just gay and whatever, it was a lot of other things. 20 �And then they sent me to the ICCR, Interfaith Center for Corporate Responsibility. And that's out of New York. I was on that national team, as a representative of the whole Disciples of Christ denomination. You know, millions of members. Toby Jenkins: Let me ask you a few questions. Kelly Kirby: Okay. Toby Jenkins: So, during this period, you had come out, you had divorced, you had your children, you had your partner, and you became kind of the person that they threw out in front when they needed a spokesperson. So, I'm just going to ask you a couple of questions. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever have to give any public interviews on marriage equality? Were you ever interviewed for that? Kelly Kirby: Oh, yes. Toby Jenkins: Were you ever interviewed for gays in the military? Kelly Kirby: Well, yes, I did. I did it in 93. Toby Jenkins: Were you ever interviewed for discrimination policies? Kelly Kirby: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: Were you ever interviewed for LGBTQ health care issues, such as HIV, AIDS? Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Were you ever interviewed for faith and spirituality and sexuality issues? Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: So, we've just covered, what about, were you ever interviewed whenever the sodomy laws were struck down? Kelly Kirby: Yes, yeah. Toby Jenkins: So, Kelly, I'm going to ask you, and this is not a court of law, but I want you to testify faithfully. Have you, to the best of your ability, for the last 20 years… Kelly Kirby: 30 years, 35 years. Toby Jenkins: Stood up and stood step forth and advocated for LGBTQ plus individuals and with a clear conscience? Kelly Kirby: Well, I got recognized for it. And I said, you know what? Toby Jenkins: You know you did your part. Kelly Kirby: This is in 2010. 21 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Kelly Kirby: It's 15 years later now, and I said, you know, this lifetime achievement [shows Lifetime Achievement Award from Oklahomans for Equality], I said, my life is not gone. I'm going to be here, you know, and here I am. Toby Jenkins: You, earlier in the interview, acted like you were a little bit embarrassed because you felt like you were touting your achievements. But I want to? Weren't you? Were you proud to represent the LGBTQ community? Kelly Kirby: Yes, yeah. Toby Jenkins: But it came with a cost, didn't? Kelly Kirby: Well, yes. Toby Jenkins: Were you threatened? Did you lose clients? Kelly Kirby: There was on my porch ... .If you're going shooting range and they have the [target] on the house and on the car, scratched in the paint, threatening life-threatening to me. I called the police. What was the question? Toby Jenkins: Did it come with a cost being visible? Kelly Kirby: Yes. So, because I was on the board of the Human Rights Commission, I know who to talk to, and I talked to that person and he said: I can't do this, but I know who in the police department can and will. It was a kid at Edison High School. They took him out of high school and suitably told him, you don't do that and you better not do that. And here's why you need not to do that and no more, no more trouble, Toby Jenkins: In 2010, you'll kind of hold that up and face towards the camera so we can….Okay, so you receive that Lifetime Achievement Award at the Equality Gala that year. So a couple of things. I know, you have always to my…. As many years as I've known you, and that's been since 96- you've always been a pretty family man and you and your partners at the time, were very involved in your children… Kelly Kirby: You know well, Charles and I were together 17 years. His twins are three weeks older than my second born, Rachel, and when Charles and I met in 1999, he moved from Edmond to here. The kids were most well, they were junior high and high school and middle school, and we were six kids and two gay dads and we were this, the Brady Bunch minus Alice. So, yes, Toby Jenkins: And I remember your partner, Charles Johnson, may his memory be blessed- I know that he also did some interviews for us in the media over issues over books being banned in our libraries when legislators are trying to ban those, an interview on kids being bullied in school because of their sexual orientation. Because he was an open out schoolteacher for Union Public Schools- was it Union? Kelly Kirby: Yes, yeah, 22 �Toby Jenkins: And was famous for every year he would take how many students to see the opera, the grade school kids? Kelly Kirby: Every kid in his school of the fifth grade. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, did that every year for years. Kelly Kirby: Yes, sadly he died for something that was probably there when he was born, but it just didn't anyway, at 58 he died, and so that's been nine years. Toby Jenkins: And you have a husband now. Kelly Kirby: Yes, Rod Benham. Yeah, so I've had three marriages and only one was a divorce. A divorce, a death, and a man who loves me now still, Toby Jenkins: And your children kind of following your footsteps, their advocates for equality. Kelly Kirby: Yes Toby Jenkins: If you were, let's say, you know you had a tombstone and you had to write something on it that you want to say about your life. Do you have a motto that you'd like to put on a tombstone, or do you have an epitaph? You know, some people have things like that. Is there something like that? As you, you know, think about life, careers, serving others, serving our country, defending our country, raising your children and all the things that you've done. Kelly Kirby: It's already on the tombstone in that cemetery down on 91st Street and it's got Charles and my name is there, with no date and…but yes, it was like you can just there's a, there's a row of those things in some succinct but yeah, Toby Jenkins: Anything else you want to make sure we have as a part of this history archive. Kelly Kirby: Another alliance, the Tulsa Metropolitan Ministry. I was on that board for four years. But you ask about the ACLU. That was in the latter part of the like, maybe 2007 to 2011 or something like that. I don't know, that's not something in that neighborhood. Toby Jenkins: So, in closing, I just want to tell you one of my favorite memories. You were the gay convertible, and by that I mean you were one of the guys who I knew had a convertible and if I needed somebody to ride in the Oklahoma City parade or the Tulsa parade I would call you, and many times you were the escort driver for whatever Grand Marshal or whatever bride, king or queen we had, and in Oklahoma City parade and Tulsa parade. Kelly Kirby: And one time, even just on two hours notice, it was somebody else that whatever happened to them, you know, I don't know, it was probably something that was on and I'm just like, okay, I'll be there. What time do you need me? Toby Jenkins: Well, thank you so much. I appreciate you spending this time with us all right. 23 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Kelly Kirby Interview Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kelly Kirby, Toby Jenkins Subject The topic of the resource Kelly Kirby Oral History Project Interview from April 9, 2025 Description An account of the resource This conversation with Kelly Kirby explores his life journey, from his early awareness of his sexual orientation to his military service and subsequent advocacy for LGBTQ rights. Kelly shares personal stories about his family, relationships, and the challenges he faced as an openly gay man in Oklahoma. His commitment to equality and inclusion is evident through his involvement in various organizations and his reflections on the importance of authenticity in one's life. Interview conducted by Toby Jenkins on April 9, 2025, transcript edited by Dennis Neill on February 17, 2026. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 9, 2025; February 17, 2026 2025 advocacy AIDS AIDS/HIV coming out community Dennis Neill equality Gay Bars Gay Rights HIV/AIDs interview Kelly Kirby LGBT history military military inclusion OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project representation sexual orientation discrimination Toby Jenkins video Visibility World AIDS day Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2006] Lamont Lindstrom Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 15, 2006 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on April 15, 2006. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Lamont was born in Oakland, California on May 11th, 1953. At Berkeley, he completed a BA, MA and PhD in anthropology. Prior to spending a year in Australia on a National Science Foundation fellowship, Lamont married. They later relocated to Memphis for a teaching position and then joined the faculty at the University of Tulsa in 1982. In 1984 and 1985, he worked in Hawaii, returned to Tulsa and his wife and Lamont had 3 daughters. By 1994, he became more focused on his interest in same-sex relations. He has been in a long-term interracial relationship and discusses some of the challenges of segregation within the gay community. In 1996 he became involved with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, including serving on the board in the 2000s. Subject The topic of the resource Lamont Lindstrom Oral History Project interview from April 15, 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lamont Lindstorm, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2006 available at Center interview Lamont Lindstrom Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript segregation TOHR TOHR Board of Directors transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Board of Directors video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2006] Terry Luce Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 27, 2006 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on January 27, 2006. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. </strong>Terry was born in New Jersey in 1933. Served in the 10 military and was in South Korea toward the end of the war. He attended Texas Christian University in Ft. Worth, the University of Maryland and then came to Tulsa in 1968 to join the faculty of the University of Tulsa teaching psychology where he stayed until his retirement in 2005. He became an anti-war activist. In 1976 was asked by then mayor Robert LaFortune to head a task force of the Human Rights Commission exploring if gay people should be protected by city ordinances from discrimination in housing, employment, etc. The one-year study and survey was a ground-breaking effort and received local and national coverage when the report was presented to the Human Rights Commission. With the election of Jim Inhofe in 1978, the work of the Sexual Orientation Taskforce and its recommendations where shelved. In 1993, another committee under the Tulsa Human Rights Commission was formed to add to the work from the 1970s. Attorney Bil Hinkle, co-chair of the committee [Dennis Neill served as the other co-chair] asked Terry to join the new effort, which he did. He discussed the strong negative reaction to the report at the public meetings when it was released. Married to Nancy Moran, Terry was diagnosed with cancer in 2007. He died on November 4, 2020, in Tulsa. Subject The topic of the resource Terry Luce Oral History Project Interview from January 27, 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Terry Luce, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2006 anti-discrimination laws Attorney Bil Hinkle available at Center Bil Hinkle Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill discrimination bans Human Rights Commission interview Jim Inhofe Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Nancy Moran OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Robert LaFortune Sexual Orientation Task Force Terry Luce Texas Christian University transcript TU Tulsa Human Rights Commission University of Maryland University of Tulsa video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/f72c2df42fc84be737c24550dce17aec.mp4 d517224038d8563bc6f524eb2753e69d https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/9c5aa6299e0ece9650f1789f237c463b.pdf fc9870b8c20fb40b7478d0f28e9f551a PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with John Madigan Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: January 13, 2026 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, January 25, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About John Madigan Summary This conversation with John Madigan explores his life journey from a small mining town in Canada to becoming an influential figure in the LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa, Oklahoma. John shares his experiences growing up on a farm, his transition into the oil and gas industry, and his eventual involvement in various LGBTQ+ organizations, including Prime Timers. He reflects on the intersection of faith and sexuality, the challenges faced by the LGBTQ+ community, and the importance of advocacy and inclusion for older adults. John's insights provide a rich narrative of resilience, community, and the ongoing fight for equality. Takeaways 2  John was born in a small mining town in Canada.  He grew up on a farm with 12 siblings.  Education was a significant part of his early life.  John transitioned to the oil and gas industry in the 1960s.  He moved to Tulsa in 1990 and became involved in the local community.  John identifies as a gay man and became aware of his sexuality in adolescence.  He has maintained his Catholic faith throughout his life. � John has been actively involved in LGBTQ+ organizations, including Prime Timers.  He emphasizes the importance of community and advocacy for older LGBTQ+ adults.  John believes in the need for ongoing activism to protect LGBTQ+ rights. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Early Life 02:47 Growing Up on the Farm 06:00 Education and Early Career 09:00 Transition to the Oil and Gas Industry 12:02 Life in Tulsa and Community Engagement 15:02 Understanding Sexual Identity 18:02 Faith and Sexuality 20:55 Involvement in LGBTQ+ Organizations 23:48 The Formation of Prime Timers 26:57 Community Building and Advocacy 30:08 Challenges and Triumphs in the LGBTQ+ Community 33:09 Reflections on Aging and Inclusion 36:01 Future of LGBTQ+ Advocacy 38:59 Final Thoughts and Legacy John Madigan Interview Toby Jenkins: Good afternoon. We are here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library. And we have an interview with John Madigan. John, for archival purposes, tell us your full name, your date of birth, and your physical address. John Madigan: John T. Madigan. 04-24-45, XXXXX, Tulsa. 3 �Toby Jenkins: All right. So we're going to jump right in. John, where were you born? John Madigan: Luscar, Alberta, in Canada. Toby Jenkins: In Canada. So you're from Canada. Is that a big city, small city, little town, hole in the wall? What is it? John Madigan: Well, back in the early 40s, it was a mining town. Today, it's a, what do you want to say? It's got a signpost to say where it was. Toby Jenkins: So you were born there in Canada. And at that time, so 1945, it would have been a mining town. What would the population have been? John Madigan: 400 or 500 people. They're just miners. Toby Jenkins: So it was still just a small town. And did your father work in the mine? John Madigan: Yes. That was his military duty. Toby Jenkins: OK. He was required to do it, or it was his assignment. Was he assigned there for security or for just a? John Madigan: He worked in it. Toby Jenkins: OK. And did your mother work outside the home? John Madigan: No. Toby Jenkins: And how many siblings do you have? John Madigan: 12. Toby Jenkins: 12. And this would have been in 1945 in Canada. And your father was able to support the family with the money he made at the mine? John Madigan: Well, that lasted only after the war was over. Then we moved back to Saskatchewan where he was raised to his parents' homestead. Toby Jenkins: So they had a farm? John Madigan: His parents moved from Ontario to Saskatchewan in 1905 when the three provinces were divided up. And so they had to have people to populate it. So it was just like Oklahoma. You had a homestead. Toby Jenkins: OK. And so you kind of grew up on a farm then? Toby Jenkins: How old were you when you moved back to Saskatchewan? 4 �John Madigan: About a year old. Toby Jenkins: Oh, so you were just a toddler. Where are you in the birth order of 12 kids? John Madigan: At the top. Toby Jenkins: You're the oldest? John Madigan: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Well, that's incredible. There was a lot of pressure on you. Now, with 12 children, what was their religious affiliation? John Madigan: They were Roman Catholic. Toby Jenkins: Roman Catholic. That explains the 12 children. So you lived there, and you lived on what would have been your grandparents' homestead. So did you farm? John Madigan: When in 46, 47, we moved to my uncle's farm. And then he moved back to Ontario. And so we had the farm until 2018. Everybody quit farming. Toby Jenkins: What kind of did y'all raise? Crops, cattle, sheep, goats? John Madigan: No goats. No, it was wheat farming. And we had cows on the side for eating purposes. Toby Jenkins: Was there a little school in this little town that y'all went back to? John Madigan: Yeah, we had two. It was called Naomi. It was three miles from the house. And then when we started to go to school, we walked or rode the horse. We didn't get to drive the buggy until we were eight, nine years old. Toby Jenkins: No school bus? John Madigan: School bus? We're lucky we had a car. Toby Jenkins: So you had to go three miles to school. Now was that a Canadian public school, or was that a private Catholic school? John Madigan: Public school. Toby Jenkins: And is that where you graduated from high school? John Madigan: No, that was my elementary. And then they closed it and they consolidated the school district. So we had to move to town to go to school. That's when we found out there was a school bus that worked. 5 �Toby Jenkins: And what was the town, the bigger city? John Madigan: Ceylon Toby Jenkins: And so they had a high school, a public high school. John Madigan: It went from first to twelfth grade. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember what year you graduated from high school? John Madigan: 1964. Toby Jenkins: 1964. How many were in your graduating class? John Madigan: Twelve. Toby Jenkins: Twelve. Wow. Well, that sounds so wonderful. So you were twelve years old. You graduated from a class of twelve, my apologies. And when you finished high school, you had all of these younger siblings. What was your plan? Do you remember what your plan was as a senior in high school? What you kind of dreamed. Did you dream you were going to farm? Or did you dream you were going to stay there? No. John Madigan: No. Farming was not my forte. I was not going to make that as a career and I didn't. Toby Jenkins: So what did you do right after high school? John Madigan: So after high school, then did odd jobs. And then I got a summer job with the highway department. John Madigan: The, what do you want to call it? District office was there in town. Toby Jenkins: So you did that, but you still were staying at home in that area. John Madigan: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And still helping with your family. John Madigan: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: When did you finally leave there? John Madigan: Then that winter I got a job with the company doing oil and gas exploration from here in Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: In 1965? John Madigan: It's about 67. 6 �Toby Jenkins: 67. Okay. So you're a Canadian farm boy and you went from there to Tulsa, Oklahoma. John Madigan: Well, I spent the winter in Canada doing exploration. And then the next spring he moved us down here to Kansas. That was the first job in exploration down here. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So did you have to have a visa, a work permit? John Madigan: Yeah, I had a work visa. Toby Jenkins: And so that would have been in the 60s. Were you excited about coming to work in the U.S.? John Madigan: Yes, it was a good job. Toby Jenkins: You were just glad to get off the farm. John Madigan: That was something to do. Toby Jenkins: And so you came to the middle of the country and you said you started out in Kansas. And what exactly were you doing in the oil and gas? Were you a roughneck? John Madigan: No. No, it was exploration. We used gravity for our readings. It's similar to seismic, where they drilled holes and used dynamite for their energy. We had a machine that was gravity. It would read the pull of gravity. It changed at every spot that we were in. Toby Jenkins: So eventually, you said you started out in Kansas. Then eventually they moved you to Tulsa? John Madigan: Well, we went from Kansas. That year we went to Iowa. Then from Iowa we went to Nevada. Spent over about a year in Nevada. And then we went to Utah, to north of Salt Lake, Ogden. And worked out on the Salt Lake flat. And then we moved back to Kansas, to Goodland. And then from there, went back to Williston, North Dakota. And then we moved down to San Antonio, Texas in July, so you know what the temperature was there, when the humidity and the temperature were the same. Toby Jenkins: But I would have thought you would have been grateful to get out in North Dakota in the summer. John Madigan: That was coming summer. The fun of job, working exploration, was we worked in the summer in the south and worked in the winter in the north. 7 �Toby Jenkins: Isn't that the way it always is? So while you're bouncing around all over the midsection of America in the oil and gas industry, were you staying in contact with your family? I mean, were you sending money home? John Madigan: No. Toby Jenkins: But you were writing them letters, talking to them. John Madigan: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Your siblings, did you make trips home during the holidays? John Madigan: Every once in a while, yeah. We had vacation time. Toby Jenkins: When did you eventually land in Tulsa? What year would that have been? John Madigan: I came to Tulsa to stay in 1990, in January. Toby Jenkins: So all of those years, would they have you visit Tulsa for companyrelated issues? John Madigan: Yeah, the only time coming to town was just between jobs, change equipment or something like that. Toby Jenkins: And so what was your thoughts of Tulsa in those days when you first were exposed to it? Because that would have been in the days we were the oil capital of the world. John Madigan: Yeah, that was, well, I didn't stay in very long, but it was a nice city, liked it. That's why I come back. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and do you remember what the company was you worked with, what the name of the company was? John Madigan: They started out as E.V. McCollum & Company. And then when the owner finally, to decide, when he was in his 80s, to retire, it was called Gravimetrics. And we had an office down on South Main, just across the street from Texaco building. Dennis, you'd know where the Texaco building was. Toby Jenkins: All right, so about what age was it you finally moved to Tulsa, officially, permanently? John Madigan: I guess that's 90, that's 35 years ago. You take that from 80, I'm about 50. 8 �Toby Jenkins: You were in your 40s, late 40s. Okay, so all of this time you're here, did you become a U.S. citizen, or did you maintain your Canadian citizenship? John Madigan: Yeah, I still got my Canadian citizenship. I couldn't give it up, I couldn't afford to. Toby Jenkins: Right, so during this time you would have been a young adult man. Did you ever marry? Did you ever have children? John Madigan: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you were a farm boy, and you landed this job, and it took you all over the country. How do you identify? What is your sexual orientation? John Madigan: Gay. Toby Jenkins: So you consider yourself a gay man. When did you begin to be aware that you were different than other people, different than other farm boys? Speaker 3: 13. Toby Jenkins: So you began to be aware of some differences when you were an adolescent. And when you finally get out of Canada, and you're traveling with this oil and gas company, was this an identity or sexual orientation? You became more aware of it, more confident that that's? John Madigan: Oh yeah, because you met different people in different towns. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so when you would travel to these towns, would there be places to meet other men who were like yourself? John Madigan: Well, there could be, but I wasn't pursuing that. Toby Jenkins: Okay. But you knew that, by then you knew that you... John Madigan: Oh yeah, because you knew. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so when you came to Tulsa, did you meet any other gay people here in Tulsa? John Madigan: Well, that's when I, by 95, that's when I joined Prime Timers. Toby Jenkins: Okay, but that would have been a couple of years after you had arrived. What about when you first arrived in Tulsa? John Madigan: Oh, yeah, we got to know a friend that, he was a Prime Timer too, and he was working at the hotel that I was staying over in West Tulsa. 9 �Toby Jenkins: Okay, do you remember who that was? Was that just a friend, or was that a boyfriend? John Madigan: No, we got to know each other, and his name was Jim Young. Toby Jenkins: Jim Young, okay, very good. Do you remember, when you first moved here, did you go to the gay bars here in Tulsa? Did you find them? John Madigan: I knew of them, but I didn't go to them. Toby Jenkins: Was it because that wasn't your thing, or you were still, you weren't out to people at work? I mean, what was the motivation for kind of segregating yourself from the community? John Madigan: No, it was just not that, I wasn't a bar person. I went to bars when I was working, you know, friends and co-workers. When I was working in different towns, I went to bars, but it was not very often. Toby Jenkins: So, you met this guy, and did he then kind of introduce you to other gay men, the bigger community? John Madigan: No, the conversation got around to it, you know. And he knew people here in Tulsa, because he moved from Eufaula up to Tulsa get away from the kinfolk. Toby Jenkins: Now, you had never married, and you were staying in contact with your family. Did you ever have a discussion with your family that you identified as gay, or did they ever ask? John Madigan: They didn't ask, and so I just kept things quiet. So, I'm sure they, you know, we just don't speak about it. A couple of my brothers, I am sure they're gay. Toby Jenkins: So, we all just, it's just not a conversation. Now, when you were addressing this, was there, did you have any kind of internal turmoil? I mean, did you feel like there was something wrong with you being this way, and so you felt like you needed to date women, or you needed to make everybody think you were straight? John Madigan: No, I just didn't. It was not a topic of discussion, even though I had coworkers that voiced their hetero feelings. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, talking about women all the time. John Madigan: And about gays. You know, they'd run into them in their lifetime, and well, we got talking about it, and they'd run them down, and I'd just cut them off at the knees and say, this is not appropriate to the job. 10 �Toby Jenkins: Okay, so what about, you were born into a Catholic family. Was there, and now, are you still a practicing Catholic? John Madigan: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, still identifies Roman Catholic, and where do you attend services? John Madigan: Christ the King, Cherry Street. Toby Jenkins: Was there ever a time where your faith and your sexuality, there was a struggle, or did you come to a resolution? Did you seek out pastoral counseling? John Madigan: No, not really. But I knew that that was not the norm of the traditional religious in the church. Yeah. But just...I had people that had conflicts with their religion and voiced it, you know, but that's just part of the tradition, you know, that was not in, so yeah, you deal with it. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever feel any kind of, um, like you were being attacked or you were being questioned at your church? Did they want to know why you weren't married, or, John Madigan: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you never had a priest or a religious leader who tried to reassure you that you were welcome at the church and maybe talk about that? John Madigan: I never felt unwelcome at any church that I went to. Toby Jenkins: Were there other LGBTQ people in your congregation that you knew? John Madigan: Oh, heck yes, you know them. Toby Jenkins: So, uh, just, just out of curiosity, as an 80 year old Catholic Canadian, what did you think when our previous Pope began to really make waves and say some pretty unexpected things affirming and loving towards LGBTQ people, specifically when he said priests could, um, uh, say a prayer at, uh, at same sex, uh, marriage ceremony, they, you couldn't do the ceremony, but they could, I guess, bless it. John Madigan: Bless it, yeah. Toby Jenkins: What was, what was your thoughts when that happened? John Madigan: That was, well, the, uh, this is the recognition by the church that we're children of God. There's no discrimination. It's only humans discriminate against. We'll always have homophobes. 11 �Toby Jenkins: Were you surprised that the Pope came out so strongly, supportingly, and lovingly of LGBTQ people? No. John Madigan: No. It was, it was in the, kind of in the flow. Toby Jenkins: Okay. John Madigan: It was, the church has, has to, uh, adjust to the society. Toby Jenkins: So the, the present Pope, who's an American Pope, um, do you feel like he's going to continue the work of the previous Pope of inclusion and moving the church towards a more welcoming faith community? John Madigan: Well, they're going to be more open about it. It was not saying that the church was not welcoming to you. They just didn't say anything about it. Toby Jenkins: Very interesting. Anything else you want to say about faith and sexuality or anything about that before? John Madigan: You know, since we’ve worked for the last 40 years or more, we made our voice, our presence known. We live in this country. We're a part of everything. Toby Jenkins: Ok. So it's, um, you're here, you know that you're a gay man, you're in Tulsa, Oklahoma, you've met this one friend, um, and, uh, you didn't really, from what you're told us, you didn't really connect, you know, with the clubs, the bars. Um, were you aware of TOHR, uh, and it's different names, what we call Oklahomans for Equality today? John Madigan: And, uh, I didn't, hmm, may have heard about it, but didn't, you know, make any concerted connection to it until after I, that both of us joined Prime Timers. Toby Jenkins: Okay. John Madigan: And then, and then, then right there you had 40 gay people right in front of you, yeah. Toby Jenkins: So, uh, did, in those, like in the early 90s when it was forming, did y'all meet at the community center? Um, do you remember? John Madigan: We met at the, there was a meeting room at, um, Harvard where the, uh, TOHR had their call center. Toby Jenkins: And their and their HIV testing, yeah. John Madigan: No, it didn't have that, it was, uh, you know, just the telephone. You called in and. 12 �Toby Jenkins: Okay, the helpline. John Madigan: Yeah, the helpline, that's right, and because a couple of the, uh, Prime Timers were working there. Toby Jenkins: Were volunteering on it. And so they would meet there in the meeting room. John Madigan: Yeah, they had a meeting room there. Toby Jenkins: Ok. So, you, you met this friend, and did he tell you about Prime Timers, or were y'all a part of Prime Timers forming? John Madigan: One of his friends that he knew, uh, mentioned it, and, uh. And I think Jim knew about Wesley, which was the founder. Toby Jenkins: Wesley, do you remember his last name? John Madigan Bauer. Toby Jenkins: Bauer, okay. Toby Jenkins: So Wesley had formed a chapter of Prime Timers. For our viewers, please tell us what Prime Timers is, and what it means, and what its mission. John Madigan: Okay. Prime Timers started in Boston. He was a professor, and he wanted to have a group of men of like persuasion for older guys to have a place to go and meet and greet, have fellowship and things. He started the organization in 1983. In 1993, Wesley and Omer started Tulsa Area Prime Timers. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So it was a chapter of a national affiliate. And so did they have monthly meetings, monthly discussion groups? John Madigan: We had a monthly meeting, and we had activities during the month. Toby Jenkins: What were you doing to be connected to the national group? Because I guess by then it probably had chapters all over the country, didn't it? John Madigan: Oh, yeah. Even off in other countries. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, around the world. My awareness of it is, to me, it seems to be having a resurgence. Do you think that's because there's more older men now that we're seeing? Our LGBTQ community, we're seeing a larger group of older, middleaged retired men? 13 �John Madigan: Oh, yes. It's more acceptable and open, and there's less conflict and stigma in this. And then the mission of the organization was to have something for older men to do, meet others. Toby Jenkins: And so it was just for men? John Madigan: Yes, it is just a men's group. Toby Jenkins: How did you handle, if you had an individual who identified as a female person, they wanted to be a part of the group, how did you handle that? John Madigan: Just told them away. When we were at the meeting down at Peoria... Toby Jenkins: On the Brookside location. John Madigan: On the Brookside location, we had just one lady come up and says, can we join Prime Timers? And I says, no, it's a men's only organization. And she says, well, could we start one? I says, yeah, you can start a girls' Prime Timers. Toby Jenkins: And there is a similar organization. I think it's changed its name a couple of times, but it is for older women who identify as lesbian or bisexual. How did you handle individuals who might have been transgender? John Madigan: Well, we had a member that transed while she was a member. And after she transed, then she was out of the group. We didn't ostracize her. She would come to the all activities. Toby Jenkins: So as she transitioned, came into the group identifying as male and transitioned to a female person. And so once she transitioned, she left the group. John Madigan: Yeah, well, she was identifying as female. Toby Jenkins: So that would have been the 90s and you got involved in it. What else would you like to say about Prime Timers? John Madigan: It's a great organization for gay men. Toby Jenkins: Bisexual men. John Madigan: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And you have, I know you'll have lots of brunches and lunches and you go to the movies and I know several of you travel to the National Gathering every year. You have a monthly meeting here at the Center. You have big holiday parties. I went to one of your recent holiday parties. I don't know how, there's probably 60 men in that 14 �house. And it was a blast and I got hand warmers in the gift exchange. I was tickled to death. Toby Jenkins: So Prime Timers, while it's its own separate individual 501c3 and its own program for gay and bisexual men, you had said that you were meeting, you were meeting at the Center. You talked about how the Harvard location, the Brookside location, and then I can, I think the first time I was exposed to you was when we were 21st and Memorial in the meeting room downstairs, which was not super accessible for people who had, people who had difficulty going up and down. When did you begin to get more involved with the organization? I mean, originally it was called Oklahomans for Human Rights and it became Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights and then eventually Oklahomans for Equality. John Madigan: I got into TOHR, oh I guess 97, 98, and just since I worked at nights and Tuesdays was usually my day off. So I'd go down to the Center on Memorial and sit at the meeting. Toby Jenkins: Okay. You would volunteer? John Madigan: No, just got interested. Toby Jenkins: Now were you ever involved in PFLAG with Nancy and Joe McDonald? John Madigan: Oh yes. Got connected at Fellowship [Congregational Christian Church] when they were having meetings there. Toby Jenkins: Okay. John Madigan: Nancy. TOHR. Then after that, then they got to, they got started with the Pyramid Project and just one day I got roped in by Sue and Marcy. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And what was the, if you, for our viewers, tell us what the Pyramid Project was? John Madigan: The Pyramid Project was set up for, for the organization to find a permanent building. So it's in 2004, was it then? Then we finally bought the building. Toby Jenkins: Why did we need a permanent building? John Madigan: Well, because our landlords weren't very good. Toby Jenkins: Wouldn't let us fly a rainbow flag over the building. So you helped with that project? John Madigan: Yes 15 �Toby Jenkins: So were you here that day we bought the building and raised the flag and we had the bagpiper here. What were your thoughts that day after y'all spent how many years? John Madigan: I guess about eight years, you know, convincing the gay community in Tulsa that we got the dirt. Back then we always had to say, well you don't have any dirt so we won't give you any money. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so by dirt you mean geographical possession of a piece of property. John Madigan: Yeah, and so then when we did, we signed the deed on this building, then we come up and says, okay now, we got the dirt. We want your money. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and they come across. Toby Jenkins: We all work together. Do you, so you were involved in Prime Timers and you were involved in this organization's formation and supporting the purchase of a permanent building. Did you participate in any of the renovation days that we would have? John Madigan: Oh yeah, When I had days off. John Madigan: when, of course, mornings was... Okay, gay people don't start before nine o'clock. So... Toby Jenkins: So, I want to, I don't want to miss it. Is there anything during that time, anything else that stands out in your mind, like pride festivals? Did Prime Timers participate in the pride festivals and the pride parades? John Madigan: Oh, yes. That was our community exposure. Toby Jenkins: That's what people found out about you. So we moved into this building and then y'all started having your monthly meetings here. Do you remember when they, do you remember when they were going to lift the ban on gays in the military? And were you a part of helping me collect names for our wall of honor? John Madigan: Yes, it is right over there. Toby Jenkins: And many of those were Prime Timers, weren't they? John Madigan: Yes Toby Jenkins: And we've lost many of them. John Madigan: Like most of them. 16 �Toby Jenkins: Most of them on the military wall, our wall of honor, which we dedicated that whenever the ban was lifted. And so, do you remember anything you want to say about that and what that experience was like? John Madigan: Well, that was a nice gesture by the organization to honor those people that served for freedom in this country. Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: Even though they had to keep their mouth shut, otherwise they would have been kicked out. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So when did there begin to be a stronger emphasis on providing programming for older adults? When did that really take off? John Madigan: I guess about 2009, 10, when you run into the SAGE organization. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Serena Worthington. John Madigan: Yeah, Serena. Toby Jenkins: I heard her speak at Creating Change in Chicago, and it's like, do you remember me coming back and telling you, John, we're going to start a SAGE program? John Madigan: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Because this is what everybody does. And can you tell me about those first few months, maybe that first year, until we finally got it right? John Madigan: Well, it was just like any gay group. It was about older adults and gay people in this country. In this town, didn't. There was nothing for seniors. That what it is all about? It took a lot of voicing and twisting arms. We're not going to kill you just because you're old. Toby Jenkins: So I think you might remember that first year, you and I would create programs. We would have the Area Aging on Aging come. We would have funeral homes, nursing homes come, and nobody would show up. John Madigan: Some still don't today sometimes. Toby Jenkins: Because we just thought we needed to provide programming agerelated. Well, that was a mistake, wasn't it? John Madigan: Well, it was not what they were thinking. Toby Jenkins: Right. 17 �John Madigan: Process. When we brought them there, and the whole intent was just to have those organizations and how they treated us as senior gay and lesbian people in their entities. Now, how were you gonna be treated after you died when you went to a funeral home? Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: Or you went to a senior center? Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: Were you gonna be put in the back room way down in the hall and they show up every couple of days for you because you're gay? Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So it had an advocacy element of it where while we were networking with these senior serving agencies, we were trying to make them more inclusive. John Madigan: Well, and that's what SAGE was all about. Toby Jenkins: Right. So what was it? We finally did that everybody got with it and they decided they wanted to be a part of it. John Madigan: You convinced Serena to have a gay conference here. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, we hosted. John Madigan: And hosted it. And they finally, oh, okay, that's something cool. Toby Jenkins: So you remember how we began to shift our attention from making them aware of resources to social activity like trips and pool parties and luncheons and entertainment, movie days and book story, book reviews. That's when we really began to see it take off and grow. John Madigan: Oh, yeah, because we did other things then just sit around and talk. Toby Jenkins: Talk about old stuff. John Madigan: Well, about each other. And did things that were interesting to people. Toby Jenkins: And more social. John Madigan: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Creating social opportunity. John Madigan: Yeah. 18 �Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: And the trips went to places where the people that are born, raised and lived and worked in this county had never been there. Never been, oh, I've never been here in all my life. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Museums. John Madigan: Like going down to Fort Gibson. Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: It's been here before the state was a state. Toby Jenkins: Um, yeah, we, activities began to be, in those days we used to have to rent vehicles and eventually we ended up with the equality van. And while we were traveling all over the country going to these things, it was branded so that other people knew about us and how to find us. John Madigan: Well, you couldn't miss it, the advertising name on the vehicle. Toby Jenkins: How did people find SAGE when we started that chapter? Cause we had lots of interesting, do you remember any of the stories about how people just showed up? John Madigan: No, they just showed up and just people come in and say, well, well, first it was something for the senior group and other than, it was geared to them and they felt comfortable. Yeah, the age group was right. Toby Jenkins: What about you? I know you were involved in the veterans wall. Also, our former director, Greg Gatewood, who had been the former director, he used to have an event on Thanksgiving day for older adults who were by themselves. And so I felt like we need to keep that going. Do you remember the days when we finally decided we wanted to create a Thanksgiving dinner here? So people started out as a thing for older adults who were by themselves and then it... John Madigan: Become a community meal. That was giving thanks for us. We had some place to go to and we had a community that you could relate to. Toby Jenkins: And how many people would come to those meals? John Madigan: Couple of hundred. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and who would help provide the food? 19 �John Madigan: The allied churches. Oh, they'd fight each other trying to see who was going to get there. Toby Jenkins: Over who was bringing green beans or… John Madigan: Or cookies or cake. Toby Jenkins: But that was a huge project, wasn't it? John Madigan: Oh, yes. Toby Jenkins: And then we'd prepare the meals for people who couldn't come so they could have these takeaway meals which would be older adults who were shut in and couldn't. So, you've kind of been involved in so many facets of the community. And so, 80 years old, you look marvelous. I know multiple times you've traveled with the organization to conferences, trying to remember all the ones you went to, because every time we went to Creating Change, I would drag you out and make, I know your favorite one must have been when we took 56 people on a bus to Washington, D.C. John Madigan: Well, that was, you're not gonna forget that trip. Toby Jenkins: No, well, especially getting trapped in the Appalachian Mountains, in the fog, and we had to get out and walk through the mountains to keep the bus, oh, gosh, yeah, that was a… John Madigan: And then when we got there, the city shut down. Toby Jenkins: It was in the middle of the government shutdown under Trump, his original residency, and we marched, didn't we, against Trump and his attack on the LGBT community in his first, first term. So, you're 80 years old. And tell me your thoughts about, your thoughts for the future and your suggestions on what might help us improve to make sure everybody's included. John Madigan: Well, right now, in this day and age, is senior mobility. We have seniors, gay and lesbian seniors, at home that would like to come down here, but can't, don't have any availability to transportation. We had a lady, senior, ask us about coming to the OKEQ Senior Group, but she needed transportation. So, you gotta, that way you gotta have somebody to go pick her up, and her, him, didn't know which one it was, but anyway. Toby Jenkins: Would it be possible to work with non-profit organization, or non-profit or governmental transportation modules to be able to figure out a way to get them here? 20 �John Madigan: Well, yeah, there are other organizations in town that have transportation for their groups, but they don't have, can they fit in that, or do they belong to that? Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: Life Senior Services, or the VA? Toby Jenkins: Possibly, y'all could partner with Tulsa, I forget what it's called, the bus system here has... John Madigan: The Lift. Toby Jenkins: The Lift. John Madigan: But then they, there they have to reserve the pickup time, two, three days out. Toby Jenkins: But that could be something that could be coordinated. John Madigan: Could be, yeah. Toby Jenkins: What else do you think is, when you're thinking of, you're youthful, 80 years old, you're eight decades on Planet Earth, what, do you have concerns about our present situations? Just curious, because this won't happen very often, we've got a reallife Canadian across the table from us, how does it make you feel whenever our present White House leadership is so combative and adversarial with Canada, our nearest neighbor? John Madigan: Our present President is, he's an opportunist and an agitator. He loves poke you on the ribs about things, and it's the things that are done behind the scenes. With the LGBT community, we got to be on guard 25-8 to keep what we got, because it'll go out the window in a flash. Most LGBT people think we got it made. Nah, the kids don't have a clue where we started. That's where the history should start. History 101 to the 20-year-olds, what it was like in 1980. Dennis Neill: This being a history project, this is John with Tay and others, when we drop boxes off for them to help support the resurgence of the history project. So maybe ask him a few questions about his experience with that. Toby Jenkins: Dennis has a picture of you and Tay and some other people in there. What year would that have been? 21 �Dennis Neill: I would say, John, probably around 2002 was when Laura and I relaunched the history project. And I was dropping boxes off. Would that be at Tay's house? John Madigan: Yeah, that's Tay Clare”s house. Dennis Neill: There's a few more pictures with a few more people in it. Toby Jenkins: So what we were talking about is all the different things you've been involved in. So you would have been right there. We got the pictures to prove it. As they say, a photo, it didn't happen. Well, there it happened. And we got you... John Madigan: This group of people here that started this were trying to keep it going. A bunch of women. And most of these women went to MCC. And it was still going back then. Toby Jenkins: Metropolitan Community Church. John Madigan: And it was kind of an outreach for them, too. Toby Jenkins: So this would have been when Dennis was a young man. So that would have been 20... John Madigan: When we were all pups. Toby Jenkins: It would be about 2002. And Dr. Laura Belmonte, who would have been our board president at that time, professor at OSU. And you look like you were involved in relaunching, as Dennis and John, his partner John and Laura Belmonte, wanted to relaunch the history archives and the history project. So that's what this picture is. John Madigan: Yeah, they were going through photos that people had for... Going back for 30 years by that time. Toby Jenkins: I loved what you said. We have our archivist, Amanda. I felt like his last line when he said... We've got Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality, and Amanda Thompson, our archivist. I felt like if you're going to have a promotional, John Madigan's line, History 101, I felt like that could have sold why this, what we're doing, is so critical. Anything else, John, as we come to the end of this, our time together, anything else you would want to say? John Madigan: We have to fight. Keep it going. They'll run us down. That's what the young people have to do. 22 �Toby Jenkins: All right. Well, thank you so much. That concludes our interview with John Madigan here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center on January the 13th, 2026, at his youthful 80 years old. Addendum: Photos of volunteers at Tay Clare’s house sorting OkEq archival materials, circa 200 2. 23 �24 �25 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] John Madigan Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Toby Jenkins on January 13, 2026. John explores his life journey from a small mining town in Canada to becoming an influential member in the LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa, Oklahoma. John shares his experiences growing up on a farm, his transition into the oil and gas industry, and his eventual involvement in various LGBTQ+ organizations, including Prime Timers and OkEq Seniors. He reflects on the intersection of faith and sexuality, the challenges faced by the LGBTQ+ community, and the importance of advocacy and inclusion for older adults. John's insights provide a rich narrative of resilience, community, and the ongoing fight for equality. Subject The topic of the resource John Madigan Oral History Project Interview from January 13, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John Madigan, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 13, 2026 2026 interview John Madigan OKEQ Oral History Project OKEQ Seniors oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Prime Timers Primetimers Toby Jenkins transcript video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/182841b5bd7e55b943d05de2623c91ee.mp4 6330d87f3fed54f29ed4c8a1f379ad99 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/3a1265439872f9ac4dc74328b7f2c8b7.pdf 71c65239e0bd48317bf6dd3411d1f65d PDF Text Text Oral History Interview with Nancy McDonald Interview Conducted by Laura Belmonte July 18, 2004 OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Edmon Low Library ● Oklahoma State University ©2004 �OKEQ Oral History Project Interview History Interviewer: Laura Belmonte Transcriber: Allison Richmond Editors: Anika Benthem The recording and transcript of this interview were processed at the Oklahoma State University Library in Stillwater, Oklahoma. Project Detail The OKEQ Oral History Project is a series of interviews documenting the rich contributions of LGBTQ community members in the state of Oklahoma, with a particular emphasis on Tulsa and the surrounding area. These interviews were conducted by members of Oklahomans for Equality, formerly Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. Legal Status Scholarly use of the recordings and transcripts of the interview with Nancy McDonald is unrestricted. The interview agreement was signed on July 18, 2004. 2 �OKEQ Oral History Project Nancy McDonald Oral History Interview Interviewed by Laura Belmonte July 18, 2004 Tulsa, Oklahoma Belmonte Here we are. It’s Sunday, July 18, 2004, and we are at the home of Nancy and Joe McDonald in Tulsa, Oklahoma doing an interview for the Tulsa Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender history project. Nancy, we’ll begin with some basic biographical information. Tell us where you were born, a little about your childhood. McDonald I was born in Omaha, Nebraska. Raised on a farm in northeast Nebraska, Beemer, Nebraska. Attended the University of Omaha at Nebraska, graduated from the University of Nebraska school of medical technology. Worked in that career for a number of years. Grew up, really, in a very traditional family, farm values. Tremendous amount of talents and respect for individuals. I grew up with a lot of—particularly from my father—a lot of empathy and understanding for various people and different cultures. As I reflect on that, I think that’s pretty remarkable for a man born in the early 1900s. I married Joe when he was a senior in medical school, followed him to the University of—San Bernardino Charity Hospital. We were in the Air Force for ten years, career in medical. Traveled all over this country thanks to the Air Force. Settled in Tulsa in 1966. Belmonte What were you doing for a living? Were you working outside the home when you moved here in 1966? McDonald No. I stopped working the day our first child was born…full time. Then I taught at the University of California school of medical technology for a year. Then we went overseas to Turkey and to Germany, and we had another child. We returned to San Antonio, Texas, where Joe took his residency in anesthesiology. We had another child, so I was full-time mom. I did not go 3 �back to work until 1975. I went back to work in a totally unrelated field because I had been a community leader in the voluntary integration of Tulsa Public Schools. The school system asked me to come to work to organize the voluntary integration program and to respond to the additional quota for desegregation, to organize a parent involvement program which I had started as a volunteer at Burroughs…also to begin to look at using private donations and foundations for support of public education. Belmonte Had you always been a community volunteer, or did you begin that when you moved to Tulsa? What—were you into that originally? McDonald No, I think I grew up with that whole notion of helping and giving. My parents were very involved in projects in our little town. My mother insisted that I be a part of Girl Scouts, even though that was foreign to rural America. She took me to town so I could be a part of Girl Scouts growing up. I think in many ways, that was just part of my whole growing up experience, was seeking out and helping and being sensitive to other people’s needs. At Christmastime, we always, as a family, made baskets for people who didn’t have food. In the early ’40s, there were lots of natural disasters, flooding, and my parents were always involved in helping people get out of their homes in floods. It was just—I just grew up as part of that; it was just part of my experience. It wasn’t foreign to me to do volunteer work. I don’t think I even had that word at that point. You just saw some needs and you did it. You just helped. We did that in California. I mean, it was a whole new experience for me with the Hispanics. When we went to San Bernardino Charity Hospital and the Hispanics were just moving into Southern California, and they were sleeping on the hospital grounds trying to get medical care. We organized an effort to get tents for people to sleep in. When we went to Turkey, it was—I think that was really my first experiences with a family of support services from the Air Force, which was pretty phenomenal because in Turkey, we lived on the economy. We lived three miles from the base. A lot of American women would come and couldn’t handle it, really had difficulties living on the economy. This was in 1959. So I got very much involved in the family services, which would probably help the families make the adjustment to the Turkish economy, help them to learn the language, to learn about bartering. Then when the men were gone, there was an incredible need for the women in this little town called Yalova, Turkey, which was about a hundred miles south of Istanbul, who really were supportive of one another. Then we did our internship—our residency in San Bernardino, and then we were stationed at MacDill Air Force Base, which was where the F-4 pilots were stationed, and they were the first pilots to go into Vietnam. So many of our friends were shot down over Vietnam and were prisoners of war. Their 4 �wives and families were left in Tampa, so there was always an incredible need for community and support for them because these men were prisoners of war. That was all part of—it was just part of my whole experience. When I moved to Tulsa it was really—I was really lonely. Belmonte What would you describe Tulsa like in 1966? McDonald From my point of view, it was a very difficult city to get acquainted in. It was a very cliquish city. It was just not a very friendly, neighborly community. I had a lot of difficulty because I didn’t know anyone when I moved here. I shouldn’t say I didn’t know anyone, I knew—interesting enough, one person. The reason that we came here is because there was a position that was in—ahead of Joe in residency, and he asked Joe to join his practice. I knew her, and I knew—interesting enough, I knew another woman, who I didn’t know lived here at the time, but she was stationed at Lackland Air Force Base with us, and she just lived a couple blocks from me. I had worked with her in officer’s wives clubs in Lackland, so I knew two people, but it was a difficult city to get acquainted in. It was a very cliquish city because you had to be invited. You had to be invited to be a part of an organization, you had to be invited to be a part of the social element of this community. It was very difficult to break into because if you weren’t from Tulsa, you didn’t know anyone, you weren’t invited to be a part of the Junior Association of Tulsa Boys Home, or Children’s Day Nursery, or Junior League, or any of those things. It was difficult. The Girl Scout council laughs, and they still have this story on record because I was the first person that ever called them—in the summer of 1966; they had never experienced this before—called them in July and asked them if I could be a Brownie leader. I had been a Girl Scout Brownie leader in Tampa, and I wanted that experience for our oldest daughter, Joellen. I didn’t wait until September when they had to “go out and recruit leaders.” I called the council and said, “I want a Brownie troop at Patrick Henry. What do I need to do? How do I get it organized?” They just said, “That’s completely foreign.” People just didn’t do that. Belmonte Did they respond positively? McDonald Yeah, oh yeah. My god, yes. They were excited to have somebody. That really was my introduction into volunteer work in Tulsa, was that I had a Brownie troop. I had another baby, but that was my beginning of my volunteer service. Then from there, I went to the Junior Association of the Tulsa Boys Home. It was an invitation for membership. The second year I lived in Tulsa, I was invited to be a member of the Junior Association of the Tulsa Boys Home. I think in some ways, that was probably my first introduction into social work because this was an organization that…. At 5 �that point, it was a little different. It was sort of the attitude of, “Well, we can buy clothes for the boys, and we can have parties for the boys, and we can organize those kinds of activities.” It was my first…it really was my first introduction into education because—well, there really were two cases. There was the case of the kids that were special education and had tremendous behavioral problems, were kept at the home, were not allowed to attend public school, and I just thought that was wrong. I thought these kids were entitled to go to school, and they were in a classroom in the basement of the home on Sixth and Quincy. They did not have a qualified teacher, and I just got really interested in that and sort of took that on. It’s a tremendous project. The Tulsa Boys Home now—we talked about their educational facility and their classrooms for boys, and it all started in the basement of the home. That’s also where I started tutoring. [Inaudible] he was brought into a Tulsa Boys Home in 1967. He was abandoned in this city. He was African American. He was picked up by the police. It was April of 1967, and the director of the home came into the meeting of the Junior Association and said, “Well, the federal government is going to make us take black kids, and we might as well take this…kid,” although he used a different name to describe him. He was eating out of garbage cans and sleeping in cars around Tulsa. He was the typical example of malnutrition. Although we didn’t know at that point in time, but he was placed at the Children’s Medical Center by DHS [Department of Homeland Security]. He was nine. He had very little language, if any. The social worker, Jerry Dillon, came in and asked if there might be someone who was willing to tutor this kid because if we could help him with language, he could even go to school. So I volunteered. You know, I think the rest people know about. He eventually came to live with us. He was starting center for the University of Tulsa basketball team. Graduated from the University of Tulsa with a degree in elementary education, did not make the NBA, but he was picked up by the pro team in France. He’s played professional ball in France until this past year. He’s part of our family. He married a French girl; they have two children. They’ll be home in a week. He’s fifty-one. He’s bilingual; he’s fluent in French, beautiful child. Belmonte What’s his name? McDonald He grew up in this community known as Clark Jones because when you would ask him his name, he would say “Clark Jones.” He grew up with that name, Clark Jones. His mother came back on the scene when he was a junior at the University of Tulsa and was being recruited by the NBA. It was at that point we learned that his real name was Zackery. He came home from picture day, his senior year picture day at the University of Tulsa, and said, “I think I’ll use my real name,” and so he started using Zackery. Professionally, in France, he’s known as Zackery Jones. We call him Zack, 6 �but many people in this community will know him as Clark Jones because he was an outstanding basketball player at Central High School. We kept him at Central because we thought it was important that he have an experience in integration. He was a key in the desegregation of Central High School. One time the assistant principal called me and said, “Nancy, get down here right now.” It was in the desegregation of Central which was in 1970. He was in the middle of the street, and the black kids were lined up on one side of Cincinnati and the white kids on the other side of Cincinnati, and Clark was in the middle of the street, trying to negotiate all of this between these two groups of kids that had walked out of Central High School in the integration process. He grew up seeing an integrated environment, and yet he was black, so he really struggled with all of this. He didn’t struggle, but he had a lot of sensitivity to it. You know, just pretty phenomenal, really. It’s interesting to talk to him because of what he experienced in the integration at the University of Tulsa. Even in the early ’70s, one time he called, and he and his fellow black players were not allowed to stay at a hotel in Louisiana because they were black. The University of Tulsa didn’t accommodate them, so the white players stayed in one place and the black players stayed in another hotel for colored only. It was just so foreign to him that…anyway, that’s my experience. Belmonte Right. Was it through Clark that you became involved in the desegregation efforts? McDonald Really, I think he was certainly a part of it. Part of it was really selfish because of our second son, was really—this is his mom speaking, but he was very bright. We were in a traditional neighborhood school where he was not really being allowed to move at his own pace. They were just beginning to talk about and—particularly in this community, but also nationwide— curriculum that was individually paced, individualized for each student. The superintendent of the school system was doing some innovative things at that point in time and had built a new school, Columbus Elementary, and had piloted the integrative curriculum, continuous progress at Columbus, at Barnard, and at Lee. So I thought that curriculum would really be good for Jason, our second son. But I couldn’t get to it. They wouldn’t let me transfer out of the neighborhood school. At the same time, the school system was being faced with the integration of the school system. It was court-ordered segregation for the five elementary schools that were built for segregation. Carver Junior High School was closed in the summer of 1971, and six hundred black youngsters were bussed—not six hundred, 1,200 black youngers were forced bussed out of the old attendance zone of Carver Junior High School to five, south side junior high schools. That happened three weeks before school opened. There was a lot of unrest in this 7 �community, both in the black community and the white community. Petitions were flying. I remember one time at the corner of 51 st and Harvard, I was stopped and asked to sign a petition against forced bussing. It was just sort of—to me it was just sort of a—it wasn’t right. There was some things that just weren’t right in this whole thing. There was no one seeking any kind of solution to it, no one seeking any kind of alternative solution. Lines were drawn in the sand between the black community and the white community. They were not—they just forced this on this community. A group of people—it was not my idea—a small group of people, three or four of my friends, really began to talk about the possibility of offering an alternative: voluntary integration. Negotiating with the Board of Education, if we could have a curriculum that we wanted input into staff, hiring, and parent involvement because prior to that there were signs on the doors that said “no parents allowed” in Tulsa Public Schools. If you wanted to go to a classroom to see your child or to talk to your child, that was not allowed. There were signs on the neighborhood school that said no parents were allowed. That was completely foreign to me. That was not part of my experience growing up. Belmonte Was this sort of in loco parentis policy for the system? McDonald Yeah, absolutely. That was what we negotiated with, and we had an assistant superintendent who was very supportive of us. He thought the idea would work because he was interested in expanding his idea of continuous progress, individualized education. He was really innovative, and he said, “I think we can do this. I think we can demonstrate that this will work.” He said to—I guess there were maybe twelve of us—he said, “If you could get maybe forty families, we’ll start this project called voluntary integration.” So we did. We were successful in getting about forty families. We took our kids north to Burroughs Elementary School, which was a demonstration project that voluntary integration would work if you gave parents choices. This is 1971. If you gave parents opportunity to be involved in their children’s classroom, if you gave parents an opportunity to evaluate teachers and to be a part of the hiring process, and also, if you would look at community resources. If you look at that, you can see my job emerge because that was my job in Tulsa Public Schools. We started. It was the first time in the nation that they’d ever heard about voluntary integration, and we had incredible coverage: ABC, we even had a television from Germany came in and televised our kids getting off the yellow school buses and going to an all-black school. Belmonte Have the uprisings in Boston against forced bussing started by this point? McDonald Sure, absolutely. 8 �Belmonte This is of course, really, abutting the national curve. McDonald Absolutely, it was just incredible. This was happening across this nation, forced bussing, in Charlotte-Mecklenburg…there was one we visited in Atlanta and certainly Boston and Delaware, Dover, Delaware. It was pretty incredible. That project was so successful that—and we worked very closely with some leadership in the black community, black ministers and some black community leaders—to really pull us up. At that point, we had sixty percent white, forty percent black, so you always had to be in the majority. That’s a key point in this whole thing. That project was so successful that then Bruce [inaudible] said, “Do you think you could do this for Carver?” As parents, we’re saying, “How do we continue this experience for our children?” A good friend of mine and myself tackled the whole reopening of Carver, and the school board said, “We’ll let you do that, but you have to recruit 150 white kids and seventy-five blacks.” I’m not sure what the number was—we had to recruit 250 and they had to be sixty percent white and forty percent black until they would reconsider reopening Carver. The other thing that was so exciting at that time in this community is that Bob LaFortune was mayor and involved in the whole urban renewal project. He said that if he thought we could do this, that he would get the money to renovate Carver. It took us a while because we didn’t have a school, we didn’t have teachers, we didn’t have principals, we just had an idea that this would work. We were successful. We got that done in October of 1972. We finished Carver in October of 1972. The courts said we could reopen Carver, we could match it, sixty percent white, forty percent black. We had our 250 students, and we would expand it to 500 the next year. Bob LaFortune came through on his promise to renovate it, and we had to hold those students until September of 1973. Then at the same time, the courts came down and said that the school system had to desegregate Booker T. Washington, and then the school board approached us as the parents and said, “Do you think you could do this on a volunteer basis?” Belmonte Is Carver a high school as well? McDonald No, it’s a middle school. We started it as an innovative middle school. It was Tulsa’s first middle school in 1972, ’73 when it opened. Part of that was because Bruce [inaudible] had been at the University of Iowa. He had done his doctorate on emerging adolescents, and how junior high schools really didn’t meet the needs of emerging adolescents. This was a project, really, that had national recognition for what it was doing for the emerging adolescents. It was very exciting. Anyway, then the school system approached us about the desegregation of Booker T. on a volunteer basis, although they had to put it in place alternative plans because they weren’t sure that it would work. Could you really get six hundred white students and 9 �six hundred black students? When we decided to go with the volunteer plan, one of the black leaders got up at the school board meeting and said, “We’re not going to do this because this is our school. The only way that we will consider that is if we have equal status. We’re asking that you go fifty-fifty.” That’s how we came up with this fifty percent ratio, which was absolutely the best thing that ever happened because when that—when the school board decided to go fifty-fifty, we went fifty-fifty at Carver and fifty-fifty at Burroughs. No one was in the majority then, and it just worked so much better. Belmonte Now, had Booker T. Washington historically been an all-black school? McDonald It was an all-black school. It was built as an all-black school. It was built to contain the black community. The black community that lived in West Tulsa was bussed past Webster, past Central to go to Booker T. The black community that lived in Altuma (?), which was a black community in South Tulsa, was bussed past Edison and Central to go to Booker T. I mean, they contained the black community in this school. It was built for segregation, as were five elementary schools, built for segregation, as Carver, built for segregation. They were built to contain the black community. Well anyway, I decided—I shared the whole thing for the development of Booker T. and the recruitment of students to go to Booker T. It was a difficult project. We hired—the principal at Hale exchanged the principalship with Granville Smith at Booker T., black and white. He recruited the faculty, and there’s a lot more history to this, but he recruited the faculty. That summer of 1973, H. J. Green and I had seventy-five meetings with parents, trying to get them to give permission for the kids to go to Booker T. When we went out to the students, the students signed up immediately, but we couldn’t do that; they’re minors. They had to have parent permission, and the parents wouldn’t sign. We soon learned that we had to do this in very small groups, that we had to really talk to parents about their fears. What did they fear? I think we see some themes developing here, that I’ve often said, as I’ve worked in the gay community, that it’s almost like I’m reliving history, because in many of the things that I’ve dealt with in the gay community are the same things that we’ve dealt with in integration, the fear of the unknown, myths. A lot of repetition of central themes in people’s prejudice. What we learned is that if we could meet with parents on a oneto-one or small group basis, we’d get their kids signed up. We eventually made it. It was August, and we were still short 167 students, white students. The black community held their petitions until I got the six hundred whites. As soon as I got the six hundreds whites, then the blacks came in. We had our 1,200 students, and the board of education voted at the last meeting in August to go with the voluntary plan. So we were set. It worked. The rest is history. 10 �Belmonte Now, do you recall—how did people approach you in the community? Did you encounter harassment through your work on these issues? McDonald Well, there were days I came home—one day I came home and had black shoe polish thrown on the front door and called “nigger lover.” Certainly some hate mail, hate messages on the phone and things like that. Belmonte Goes with the territory. Now, it sounds like you had your hems pulled in racial integration, but were you involved in other things at the same time you were doing this? McDonald Yeah. The school system hired me in 1974 because they thought they could just ride on the reputation that we’d established, but it didn’t work because the second year they almost lost it because white kids didn’t come. What we learned is that you had to do this every year. You had to sell a whole new group of parents on this whole concept of black and white, that this was a project that would work. Then the school system was also phased with a court order of desegregating its elementary schools that were built—that were segregated based on the school board policy that said as soon as your race was in the minority, you could transfer out. We had five more elementary schools to desegregate. That’s when Bruce [inaudible] asked if I wouldn’t come to work. I did not have a degree in education, and I never said I did. I developed the whole—maintained and developed the whole magnet school concept: the recruitment of students, the marketing of the school. It was a whole new idea to go out and sell a school, to market a school, to give parents choices within a public school arena. Who heard of that in 1973, ’74, ’75? We really were doing some very innovative work, and I also did lots of school volunteer programs which was parent involvement. I had a grant from the Ford Foundation in New York to do that. I was one of the founders of the national school volunteer program at the national level. I was part of the beginning of the Adopt-a-School Program with a woman from Memphis, Tennessee, and the woman from Dallas developed that whole concept of corporate involvement in public schools, which we merged as Adopt-aSchool and eventually became partners in education program, which was promoted by President Reagan. Had some national recognition from my work for doing that. President Bush, the first president, recognized me and ten other people for our work in community involvement in public schools. That was always the highlight, I think, of some of my work, is I had tea with Mrs. Bush in the White House. Then I also was president of the Girl Scout Council at the same time. I was president of the Girl Scout Council from 1976 until 1983. Belmonte How were the Girl Scouts changing in this era? 11 �McDonald Well, that was a difficult time, because this Girl Scout Council had experienced a tremendous tragedy. Had three little girls that were murdered in Camp Scott in June of 1977. That was difficult because I had made the decision that we would close the camp and move the camp because I just felt that it was important to have a new beginning in this council. We were sued. Two of the families sued the council for negligence, as well as the hunt for Gene Leroy Hart, who was subsequently mistrialed for the murders. That was a difficult time for me because I felt really responsible. I was president of the council, and you look back and think of what were things that you could have done or should have done that would have helped prevent incredible tragedy. I negotiated with the [inaudible] and asked that we move the camp to Camp Tallchief, and [inaudible] was very supportive, and the rest is history. We have an incredible camp out there, Camp Tallchief. I was just out there with four hundred little girls out there having a wonderful time…memory. [Inaudible] council survived. I went through that; I learned a lot from that. I always say grew up that day because I had never dealt with media or law enforcement, parents of lost children. I learned a lot about nonprofit management from that experience. Belmonte The women’s movement is going full tilt in other parts of the United States in the mid ’70s. When do you recall that starting to have an impact in your activist circle in Tulsa? McDonald Well, my first experience with that was the Tulsa Boys Home because I had been so involved and so successful with the junior association. I was president of the junior association. I had done their education component, and they thought that was really valuable—the men thought that was really valuable, so they asked me to be a member of the men’s board. That must have been 1972, ’73. I’m not quite sure what that year was. They couldn’t see anything wrong with that, why I couldn’t just become a member of the men’s board. That was just such an enigma to me; they just didn’t get it. “Why couldn’t you just accept that, Nancy, and be a member of—we think you’re great, and we really want you to be a part of this, but we’re known as the men’s board.” It was the board of directors—now I look at it, and there’s a president of the board of directors of the Tulsa Boys Home, a woman. You had to break that cycle. The other thing that was first—I was also a member of the Thornton Family YMCA [Young Men’s Christian Association]. Here again they thought, “Gosh, I’ve done some work down there,” so they invited me to be a member of the board, but they weren’t quite sure whether or not I, as a woman, could be a member of the board of directors of the YMCA. Could they handle that, or could they do that? It just presented a lot of controversy in the YMCA if they could invite Nancy McDonald, a woman, what would she know about the YMCA? Pardon the fact that I had two little boys that were very active at the YMCA, plus two little girls. It was just crazy. It was 12 �built as a family YMCA. I sort of broke that barrier for that because a lot of controversy in this community: whether or not they could invite a woman to be a member of the board of the YMCA. [Laughter] When you look at that, it was an experience of breaking that in the not-for-profit world. Belmonte It was around this time that TOHR is being formed, and other interviewees have suggested that you’re really starting to see a very small, public presence of the gay community in Tulsa. When do you recall first encountering gay people in your life, either prior to Tulsa and then in Tulsa subsequently? McDonald Well, you know, this was a topic that was not talked about. When I look back at my own growing up, it was not a topic of discussion. I remember Joe talking about an airman that he took care of in Turkey that he thought was probably a homosexual, and he was really—he was just concerned about—I just remember a brief conversation, and as we reflected on that conversation, he said, “I just felt that he was experiencing some really hateful messages on the base.” Another time, I remember us talking about—it was another airman that worked for Joe in surgery at MacDill Air Force Base, and just passing conversation. I was aware that there were people who were attracted to the same sex, but it wasn’t part of my experience. It’s interesting when I look back on the desegregation and the alternative education—we didn’t have that fancy term “magnet;” we called it “alternative.” I think about the kids that came looking for the alternative, and as I look back on them, many of them were gay. I didn’t consciously know that, but I knew that these were kids who needed to have a different kind of experience, who were seeking a different kind of experience for whatever reasons. Many of them talented, bright, young people but were having difficulty in their home school. Really, unbeknown to me, I was taking a lot of gay kids to Booker T., didn’t realize it at the time. But as I reflect back on it and look at it, obviously it was there. I just never, ever made that conscious connection that this was an alternative for gay kids and that maybe we should be doing something with faculty. It didn’t click for me. Yet, we had a faculty that was very sensitive to diversity. We built that school on diversity, racial integration. It wasn’t a factor—a conscious factor in my mind about an alternative for gay kids. I knew that there was something different about these kids that were coming for whatever reasons, and I can tell you story after story of individuals as I reflect back on them and how they came and were looking for an alternative but never, ever discussed their sexuality. Interesting. I really wasn’t really conscious of the gay community in Tulsa until our own daughter came out in 1985, ’86, when we started dealing with her issues, that I then began to think about…. Well, there are lots of things that happened there. Morva came out to us, and I read an article in—I can’t 13 �remember, Woman’s Day or Family Circle—written by a mother whose son was gay. I had made a reference to PFLAG [Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays], so I—January 1 of 1986 when Morva announced, “I think, Mom and Dad, I’m gay,” I looked for that article. I called the national office January 2, and they said, “There’s no one in Oklahoma, and there’s no one in Kansas.” This young woman, her name was Laura, and she said, “There’s no one in Missouri,” and she was just going down; she was just verbalizing this. She said, “There’s no one in Texas.” She said, “There’s this woman in Denver, Colorado, who I think would talk to you.” I was convinced that I was the only mother in Tulsa, Oklahoma who had a lesbian daughter. It was just—I was alone; there wasn’t anybody else. I just thought that I was the only one in the Midwest. Belmonte It certainly sounded like it. McDonald This wonderful woman, Eleanor Lou Ellen, talked to me and said, “You’re not alone,” and all that stuff. She sent me some literature, and so I certainly started reading everything that I could, learning about what our daughter was dealing with. I’m an avid reader, so I read a lot, trying to get up to speed on homosexuality and certainly about what youth were dealing with. Joe and I—Eleanor Lou Ellen and her husband came down to see us. The national organization was just really emerging; it was just starting as a national movement. She came down to see us, and she said, “Why don’t you and Joe think about developing a Tulsa chapter?” We got to thinking about, “it’s pretty obvious that we’re not the only parents in Tulsa, Oklahoma that have gay kids.” I don’t know if this is—this is probably not common knowledge, but I looked in the paper—I was always looking in the paper to see if there was any records, and one Sunday there was in the social concerns column PFLAG: call such-and-such a number. I thought, “Oh my gosh, there’s somebody else in this community.” I don’t mean this in any way to be critical. I called the number and it was a church which I had never heard of, the MCC church, Metropolitan Community Church, and a message. I left a message and said I was interested in attending the PFLAG meeting. Someone called me back and told me where it was. I thought I knew this city backwards and forwards and certainly have been all over this city as part of the school system, and I could not identify where this church was. I went out during the day to see if I could find this church. I swear to god, it was behind bushes, and it was just—I told Joe; I said, “I’m going to go.” He said, “Well, you’re not going to go alone. I’m going to go with you. I don’t know anything about this; we’re going together.” It was March, I think, and we went up to this church. We walked into this room, and it was dark. There were these little, tiny candles all over the room, so you couldn’t see these faces; you couldn’t see people’s faces. They 14 �invited us to come in and sit down, and a woman across the table said, “You’re Nancy McDonald,” and I said, “Yes.” They were showing a film— of course, this was the time of HIV/AIDS was really emerging, and it was very much a crisis. This whole group of people never introduced themselves, and it just sort of ended up [inaudible]. We weren’t quite sure what to think about all that. We went to our second meeting and had the same kind of experience, except there was a woman there who said to me, sort of in the dark, she said, “If you would take this chapter, I’ll help you. I know who you are. I’m a teacher in Tulsa Public Schools.” She said, “I’ll get back with you.” Didn’t know her name, nothing. I was out at the school the following week, and this teacher came up and said, “When are you ready to start PFLAG?” It was through her encouragement, then, that Joe and I decided independently to start a chapter. It was also then that we learned about TOHR, and we went through our meeting. Our first meeting at TOHR was at the library, and Dennis Neal was—I believe Dennis was president. I’m not quite sure about that; I think he was president. He was very active because he was organizing Tulsa’s first HIV testing clinic in west Tulsa. Jim Perry was very active in it, and Jeff Beale, but it was also kind of an interesting experience because there really wasn’t a lot of support. You know, we were parents attending it…it was okay. There’s also a lot of crying going on. We were kind of past the stage. We really were not crying about Morva; we were wanting to learn and be supportive and figure out what we can do. I’ve watched TOHR go through a lot of ups and downs and struggles. We started the PFLAG chapter. No one came to our first meeting—no, I shouldn’t say that. One young man came to our first meeting. He was a young man from Muskogee who was just coming out to his parents. Somehow he had learned about our—and came to our meeting. We had our second meeting at the library, and one of the young men said, “This is not working. People are not going to come to the library because it’s too public.” We moved it to Joe’s office, Surgicare. We held our meetings there for numbers of years. We had our support group meetings in the recovery room, the only support groups we ever had in the recovery room. The chapter just grew—incredible—until we needed to find another space. At that point, then the HIV resource center—that was probably about 1990, spring of 1990, we moved it to the conference room of the HIV resource center. That worked until the outdoor events phase, and then Russ Bennett said, “Why don’t you move PFLAG to my church?” We’ve been meeting at Fellowship Congregationalist Church since the early ’90s. Belmonte Tell us a little more about Morva’s experiences. How old was she when she came out? 15 �McDonald Well, I think as any gay or lesbian young person in the ’80s, early ’80s, and in our subsequent conversations with her, she obviously recognized that she was different, but she didn’t have the words. She didn’t have the labels for it; she didn’t know what it was. She knew that she was attracted to the same sex and experienced that in middle school: probably thirteen, fourteen, typical emerging adolescence. Realized that she wasn’t the same as her peers; she wasn’t attracted to the opposite sex, but here again, did not have the words for it, didn’t know what it was that she was dealing with. Just knew that this was something different. Moved to high school, of course, she was an excellent student, very athletic, excellent soccer player, swimmer. Went to high school and in many ways was certainly different than our other three children. She tended to be more withdrawn, quiet, although she’s five years younger than the next one, she was sort of raised almost as an only child. Wasn’t very communicative. Our other kids were much more engaged in family discussions and give and take. We always had family meals together and lots of lively discussions, and Morva tended just to kind of just stand back and watch all this, not engaging. You would ask her periodically, “Is there something you’re dealing, or you want to talk about it?” “Nope, I’m fine,” just not very communicative. She was obviously attracted to a girl in high school, frankly one that was, I found, very difficult to accept. We put some barriers in front of her that probably were not the best, appropriate. She tended to hide her sexuality by dating. She dated probably the most popular kid at Booker T. I thought he was a great son-in-law, but he was gay. That’s how these kids survived. You know, that was—I don’t think—unusual in the mid ’80s. She dated Allen for whatever they needed—proms, whatever. She went away to school; she went to Tufts. It was when she was a freshman at Tufts that she really dealt with it. Came home her freshman year and said, “Mom and Dad, I think I’m gay.” Then it’s in our ball park, so then we have to deal with it. I’m sure she felt much better; we felt lousy. That’s when we—then the rest is history; we developed PFLAG. Belmonte So you and Joe started PFLAG. Tell me a little bit about Joe’s part in a lot of your activism. It sounds like he’s been amazingly supportive. McDonald Yeah. Joe’s been absolutely fabulous. He’s always said, “I can’t do those kinds of things because of my work.” An anesthesiologist doesn’t have a lot of control over his time. He’s at the mercy of the hospital and the mercy of the surgeons, but he’s tremendously supportive of what we did and what I was all about and was very much a part of PFLAG. He’s done the support groups for years and years and years. He took a little break from it for a while, but he’s back doing it again. In some ways, Joe’s not very patient with parents. He said, “Get over it. This is a fact. Your child is who she is; she’s been here—she’s been very honest with you and open with you, given you a tremendous gift of honesty. Let us help you understand that. Let us 16 �help you understand homosexuality, but then let’s get beyond that and figure out what we can do collectively and make it better for our kids.” Joe has a lot of empathy but not a lot of patience with people. I think as anybody knows, he’s always there, many times doing a lot of the gut work that people don’t always see or appreciate. I often think about—Joe and I have done PFLAG almost for twenty years, and it’s Joe McDonald that sets it up and takes it down, puts away things, and just does that kind of work. That’s just—that’s our roles. Belmonte Describe to me how the chapter developed. You began mingling with the support groups. Is that correct? McDonald Yeah. Traditionally, if any PFLAG chapter grows, it grows out of support. You have a support group that comes together to offer that support for one another, and it’s really helpful for parents to talk to parents. It’s also helpful for gay and lesbians to talk to parents about what they’re dealing with and how they’re dealing with it and for parents to be available for gays and lesbians who are coming out to talk about what they can expect from parents, how to prepare them for what parents may respond and how they may respond. We were really—interesting enough—and I can’t tell you exactly—we must have been probably the fourteenth or fifteenth chapter organized in the country in PFLAG, so we’re really one of the first. We were right on the brink of support because traditionally, that’s all PFLAG did, was to come together and support. I’ve been very controversial at the national level because I said PFLAG had to move beyond that. PFLAG had to move beyond getting together and holding hands and crying because we had gay and lesbian kids, that we needed to move beyond that and think about how we could make the world better for them. It really, in many ways, although I was not alone, it was another faction within PFLAG that moved PFLAG toward its three-pronged admission that we articulated that we would offer support, support always, in any way that we could, but that we would also be much more aggressive in educating ourselves and the broader community, and that we would finally get involved in advocacy. It was in the late ’80s that a new mission was hammered out for PFLAG, which was to support, to educate, and to advocate on behalf of our GLBT kids. I was sort of at that brink of just making that move in PFLAG. They were moving from what I said, a mom and pop organization run strictly by volunteers, to a national organization with a national presence, with a national stat. I became active in PFLAG at the national level probably 198— very shortly after I started the chapter, ’88, maybe. I forget. Dates just kind of mesh, ’88 maybe. I had gone to the Seattle conference. Joe and I went to our first PFLAG national conference, encouraged my Morva. Morva went with us to the PFLAG conference in Detroit, Michigan, and she met us 17 �there. We had a wonderful time. I think it was the first time that all three of us could be really open and honest in an environment that was supportive. Then the second conference we went to was in Seattle, Washington, and it was so disorganized. It just was not functioning. They asked me if I would be a regional director, and I took that position. I subsequently developed chapters in Kansas, chapters in Oklahoma, and chapters in Texas, chapters in New Mexico, chapters in Colorado, really became active in Colorado in amendment two, organized that year fifteen chapters in Colorado in response to amendment two. Organized chapters in Casper, Wyoming, Cheyenne, Wyoming. I’ve done a lot of organizing: Dallas, San Antonio, Houston. Belmonte What do you think the biggest challenge is you’ve faced in your PFLAG work has been? McDonald The homophobia, the bigotry at the national level by our national leaders. It’s pretty incredible. I testified in congress on ENDA [The Employee NonDiscrimination Act]; I testified on Defense of Marriage Act. I never experienced such incredible hate as I did on the Defense of Marriage Act, the judicial panel. I was on the panel with Andrew Sullivan and with Elizabeth Birch. I think we both know that those were incredible individuals. I saw them just brought to tears by their questioning. You know, I think it was that point I really realized the incredible power of PFLAG because I was the third panel member. I went before the judicial committee, and the environment just changed; it was quiet. You could have heard a pin drop in the room that day. I introduced myself as a mother and a grandmother, and they could identify with that. Hyde, Representative Henry Hyde, was—you know, he said some horrible things, but I’m really proud of that. I never flinched in that. I never lost my composure. Although we lost that Defense of Marriage Act, and Steve Largent was the author, I think in some ways, we began to see the tide turning just a little bit. I testified on the first Employment Non-Discrimination Act with Representative—from New Jersey— Belmonte --D’Amato? McDonald D’Amato. Belmonte From New York. McDonald From New York. [Inaudible] That was a difficult one also, but he was really just, at that point, on a fact-finding mission in that hearing. Then I testified in the House of Representatives again, which was not as difficult as the—the most difficult one was the Defense of Marriage Act. That was really difficult. I think when you asked what are the challenges, the challenges are you just continue to pound away and trying to educate people, educate the 18 �people who are the decision makers and policy makers; that’s where it is. Simple. Belmonte Right. Let’s backtrack in some of the advocacy efforts that the PFLAG chapter in Tulsa has taken on at the local level. I know, for instance, you guys were involved in some issues with the library in the mid ’90s. McDonald Well, we had a lot—the library really didn’t want to have a display of gay and lesbian materials, books, et cetera. We had to go before the library board of trustees. We had some support from the board of trustees, from individual members who then said, “Well, this is blatant discrimination, and they ought to be allowed to have a display.” Our first display was the Ku Klux Klan was in town. Although we were not the original intent of the Ku Klux Klan coming, they learned about our library display and demonstrated in front of the library. It was a pretty incredible experience to look at the Ku Klux Klan in their hoods and to hear such hate. You realize this was the Ku Klux Klan; I mean, this was awful. They denounced our exhibit, but that barrier was broken. We handled that; we just had a display. There was not one complaint filed about our display. We’ve had—this is our fourth year. We have it every other year, so it’s eight years since we’ve done that. We have always met with the editorial board in the Tulsa world. I’ve always felt that it’s much better to be pro-active than after-the-fact. Whenever I felt that there was an issue that they needed to be aware of or that they needed—that we needed to bring attention of the editorial board, I called for a meeting, and they’ve always been receptive. Never once have they ever turned me down. Then I went to the editorial board before I started PFLAG and told them what I was going to do because as a community leader, I’ve certainly had a lot of exposure to the editorial board, and I just knew that was the thing to do. I just knew that it was so much better to meet with them and that they’d have a level of trust and respect for me if I did that. Took on advertising department of Tulsa World. PFLAG chapter changed their policies about—could not buy an ad that used the word gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered, or homosexual in an ad. I took them to task for that, and after—that would be four or five years, finally got that policy changed so we could run an ad. We ran our first project, Open Mind, and could not use those words in the ad that we even paid for. It was a 7,000 dollar ad, and we couldn’t use the words that we wanted to. We certainly have done that. We certainly were involved in Tulsa’s second try to change the [inaudible] policies of the city of Tulsa, served on that subcommittee of the Tulsa Human Rights Commission. I’ve lost track of the number of presentations that PFLAG has made to churches and civic groups and organizations, and schools, and all of that, and the educational outreach. Call that advocacy, you could call it education; it’s all about changing policies. Certainly 19 �changed the Tulsa Public School’s policies on the inclusion of Title IX and discrimination against gays and lesbians, harassment policies. Went before the executive committee of Tulsa Public Schools, and those were changed immediately. There was no trouble, which was very fortunate. John Thompson did it. We were very fortunate. Belmonte What do you think are the biggest issues facing the local GLBT community now? McDonald Well, the biggest one is, of course, the constitutional amendment—the proposed Oklahoma constitutional amendment. Personally, I don’t think there’s any chance of it being defeated; I think that if it’s defeated, it will have to be in a technicality withdrawn from the ballot. Nevertheless, you have to put every effort to making that you educate as many people as possible that this is wrong. This is institutionalized discrimination. It’s wrong. We live in a state that, unfortunately, is very conservative and [inaudible]. Belmonte Has the PFLAG chapter had any success in being racially inclusive? This is an issue that TOHR has never been successful with. McDonald No, we have not. There’s hope, but we’ve not been successful at the national level with PFLAG. This has been a big issue. I think what you have to do is you have to recognize the fact that you’re dealing with different cultures. The African American community is not—it’s not part of their culture to have support groups to get together to talk about their gay and lesbian kids. It’s just not going to happen. I mean, we’ve learned that the hard way. You have to look at a different avenue of delivering information and education to a culture, be it Hispanic, be it Native American, be it African American. You know, the Caucasians, we like to get together, hold hands, and talk about it. That’s not true for the black community. That’s not true in the Hispanic or the Asian American community. What we’ve seen happen is that we have seen the Latino, Hispanic, African American, Asian American people come together to design what it is they need within this arena of support, education, and advocacy. It takes different forms. We learn from the Asian American community that for them, it’s best to have a video that they check out and take home and watch. We’ve learned with the African American community that it’s important to find a religious community that’s supportive and that perhaps through that religious community—I learned this from the Reverend Tim McDonald, who is one of Martin Luther King’s followers in Atlanta and the minister at the Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta. I met with him when I was national president, and he really taught me a lot about how to work within the African American community to try to reach them with PFLAG’s mission. He said if you can identify African American religious leaders who 20 �understand your message, then they in turn then can help you identify your parent support group or define it. In Tulsa—and here again, I think this happened certainly because I—it may be my own ego, but credibility within the black community—so that I could go to some of the black ministers and talk to them about homosexuality. Consequently, they were willing to meet with us, so we had a meeting—I took two young, African American gay men with me. We had two absolutely incredible meetings with them just these past couple months. Did we change any ideas or any of their attitudes? Yes and no. What did emerge out of there was interesting; we identified a minister who was very supportive and who took our video, “All in the Family,” which is a video produced by [inaudible]—I don’t know if you’ve seen it, but it’s wonderful. It has, interesting enough, a native Tulsan, whose name is going to escape me now. He’s a professor of African American studies at Harvard, just moved to Princeton— Belmonte Cornel West. McDonald Cornel West. He’s a graduate of Booker T. He’s on the video, and so some of these black ministers knew him, which was very interesting. Anyway, one of the black ministers said, “You know, I think what we could do, Nancy, is we could do a PFLAG chapter in North Tulsa, and I’m willing to host it.” You know, you never know. Sometimes things happen. I was at a meeting a couple months ago for the League of Women Voters, and an African American woman came up to me, who I’ve known for thirty-seven years, and she said, “I need to talk to you, Nancy.” When anybody says that, I know what I’m going to deal with. She said—her son happened to be our son’s roommate at Harvard—and she said, “I need to tell you that my son is gay. You’re the first person I’ve told outside of the family,” and she said, “and I need to find a new church.” She said, “Because I can’t go to this church anymore because every time I go to church, this minister stands up and talks about how awful homosexuals are.” She said, “I can’t stand it anymore because my son’s wonderful, and he’s a physician in Chicago.” She said, “You know how bright he is.” “I know.” I said, “Well, why don’t you go to this church?” knowing darn good and well I was setting her up because now I have a minister and a mother. I’m going to meet with them this week about starting a chapter. I think maybe this might be how we get it going because over the years, I’ve collected all of these names of these African American parents who have called, many of whom I know, but who feel alone and isolated and not willing to come out. Maybe, it just may be that I can get them together now with this woman who’s—everybody knows in this community, and she’s willing to step up. That might work. I don’t know. 21 �Belmonte Worth a try. McDonald Worth a try, but it will have to be done very quietly. I don’t care. As long as it’s there and it’s servicing the needs of people, it will gain momentum and slowly, slowly gain enough confidence to be open enough. What’s that timeline? I don’t know. Belmonte You’ve described some positive experience with religious leaders in this community, and I can’t imagine you haven’t had many negative ones. Can you just tell us a little more about some of the resistance you have gotten? McDonald Well, it’s interesting. There’s certainly been some resistance publicly. One from a minister of a denomination here in Tulsa who’s, interesting enough, was a roommate of the president of the Houston PFLAG chapter, who’s also a minister, Methodist minister. Now I’ve given it away, haven’t I? Don’s son was murdered in Houston. He became very active in the PFLAG chapter in Houston. His roommate is the minister in Tulsa. This minister—every time we go to this church, he will not deal with me. He’ll refer me down to his assistants. He doesn’t want to recognize or will he take a stand on behalf of gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender people in this community. He’s wellthought of in this community; he’s a religious leader in this community, but he will not touch this subject. I always—sometimes it feels sort of devious. He’s been very active in another organization, a not-for-profit organization and just finished his leadership, and I wrote him a thank-you because he did an incredible job as a leader. He wrote back to me, and he said, “Nancy, I appreciate your note of thanks,” but he said, “I want to tell you, and it means a lot to me because I really respect all that you have done in this community on behalf of gay people.” That’s one-on-one, you see. He can deal with that, but publicly, in his denomination, he just can’t make that bridge. What do you do? Another Baptist minister. Well, I have to tell you, I was scared to death to go see. Absolutely scared to death, because this man is powerful, he is well-known in this community, he sits on the board of trustees at Hillcrest Hospital with me for twelve years. I went to see William about Project Open Mind, and I was scared because this man is incredible; everybody respects him. I got into his office, and he was sitting in his office with his arms folded, and I thought, “Oh, this is going to be awful.” He kept talking, and I kept talking about Project Open Mind with this other PFLAG member who was a member of his church. He finally leaned forward, and he said, “Let me tell you something, Nancy,” and I knew it was just going to be awful. He said, “I want to tell you something. I have a lesbian sister. I can’t do anything from my pulpit, but what do you want me to do individually?” I think that in some ways just tells you what the challenges are within the denom. It’s the denominational challenge collectively. It’s their doctrine, their dogma. 22 �There are not strong enough individuals or enough individuals to raise the questions or make the challenge. Will it come? I don’t know. That’s just sort of how I see it. They operate out here individually. I believe they know what’s right, and yet they do not have enough courage or backbone to step up and make a difference. It takes a real special individual to do that. It’s their job, it’s their denomination, it’s—defines them, and they’re not really willing to buck it. Belmonte Moving to another subject, some of our interviewees have talked a lot about a club called Zipper’s that existed in the ’80s here, and there used to be a lot of police harassment of people who went to this club. You and I discussed privately that—your relation with the Tulsa Police Department. Has PFLAG encountered a lot of victims of hate crimes, and how has PFLAG tried to work with the police department? McDonald I think we’ve seen tremendous changes in the police department, incredible changes within the police department, part of it because of Drew Diamond, part of it I think was a change in the culture of the police department as a whole. I think we have—as an organization, certainly we’re aware of harassment: we’ve had some calls on the help line, we’ve had some calls from individual families of kids being harassed by police with their driving on Memorial or 11th Street or wherever. Here again, I think we’ve had some good relations with the police department, where we can call them and talk to them about it and have some of those issues addressed. I still think there’s a lot of work to be done in the police department, and part of it is in their training program. They use a program—a canned program—out of Dallas called Pace. It’s really very vague; it doesn’t talk about specifics of cultures, and we need to make it much more relevant for police officers. Had some conversations with Chief Dean about it. There’s a lot of inertia right now with the police department and Bill LaFortune, and the race relations committee has been abandoned. He’s organizing a new kind of commission under the auspices of the mayor’s office. Chief Dean will talk to me a little bit about it. I’m not sure where that’s happening. Belmonte Jenny, can you think of any areas that we didn’t touch on? Davis Well, I noticed that you’re experienced in the medical field. How hard is it for a GLBT person in Tulsa to find a supportive doctor or someone that they can talk to about—have you run into that? McDonald There’s evidence, the documents. There’s evidence in the needs assessment that we’ve just completed, the Tulsa Reaches Out needs assessment, which has some specific questions about their physicians. Difficult, which points to the need that there will have to be some work done in the medical society in raising the level of awareness of their gay and lesbian clientele. It’s documented; it’s there. 23 �Belmonte Is there anything you’d like to add? McDonald I could go on and on, Laura. (Laughter) A thousand and one things. Belmonte We appreciate your time. Thank you. That concludes this interview. ------- End of interview ------- Addendum (Dennis Neill January 14, 2026) Nancy McDonald of Tulsa, Oklahoma June 4, 1936 - October 24, 2023 Nancy McDonald, a longtime Tulsa community volunteer and activist, died Tuesday. She was 87. A celebration of life will be held at 4 p.m. Nov. 12 at All Souls Unitarian Church, with a reception to follow. Per McDonald’s wishes, her family invites everyone attending the reception to bring homemade cookies. Known for her vision and tenacity, McDonald was a force for change in Tulsa for well over 50 years, embracing a variety of causes including public school integration, the arts and LGBTQ rights. Notably with the latter, her influence extended throughout Oklahoma and beyond. McDonald and her husband, Joe, were the founders of the Tulsa chapter of Parents, Families, and Friends of Lesbians and Gays, the first in Oklahoma, and she later served as president of the national PFLAG organization. It was during her tenure as president, in 1998, that the organization extended its mission to include transgender people. McDonald was active on a state and national level in promoting legislation that advanced LGBTQ rights. And when a proposed law threatened that advancement, she was there to fight it. That included testifying before Congress in 1996 in opposition to the federal Defense of Marriage Act. Toby Jenkins, former director of Oklahomans for Equality, said McDonald was a source of needed encouragement for her fellow LGBTQ rights advocates, assuring them that “incrementally, bit by bit, relationships would form and change would come.” “Nancy taught us to show respect and civility to everyone, even if they were hateful to you,” Jenkins said. “If they spoke that way, she believed it was just that their hearts and minds had not been opened or challenged. Eventually the change of heart would come. I will miss that most about her.” A Nebraska native and graduate of the University of Nebraska, McDonald moved to Tulsa with her family in 1966. She didn’t waste any time getting involved in her new community. As a parent of school-age children and PTA member, she joined a small group of Tulsa Public Schools parents in helping with voluntary integration, starting with Burroughs Elementary School. Then, in 1973, district officials turned to McDonald to help integrate Booker T. Washington High School. 24 �Chairing a committee for volunteer recruitment, McDonald led the successful effort to recruit white student volunteers to attend the previously all-Black school, holding a series of meetings with students and parents. Her volunteering led to a full-time job with TPS, coordinating volunteers and leading the further development of the magnet school concept. Motivating more community volunteers to get involved in their public schools was at the heart of McDonald’s love for the Partners in Education program. She participated in a related White House Symposium and wrote the guidelines for PIE groups that were published as a book. She remained involved with PIE through the end of her life. McDonald was also passionate about scouting. She was a former board member and president of the Girl Scouts of Eastern Oklahoma. In that role, she helped guide the organization through the tumultuous time following the 1977 murders of three girls at summer camp. McDonald was recipient of a number of honors and awards. They included induction into the Tulsa Hall of Fame and the dedication of the Nancy & Joe McDonald Rainbow Library in her and her husband’s honor at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. McDonald’s commitment to the LGBTQ cause began in the 1980s when one of her daughters came out as a lesbian. The experience of supporting her daughter would shape McDonald, and later she became a mother figure to many LGBTQ people who found themselves facing alienation from friends and family. “We called her ‘everybody’s mother,’” Jenkins said. “She was a surrogate parent for so many whose families had rejected them or had not accepted or understood them. There are national LGBTQ leaders who came out of Oklahoma who Nancy mentored about family relationships.” And her motherly influence didn’t end with the LGBTQ community, Jenkins said. “If anyone was marginalized, it became her cause,” he said. Morva McDonald, McDonald’s daughter, said her mother was “just so good at seeing every individual.” “At her core, she was always trying her best to help people be seen, be recognized for who they were. And that’s what allowed her to reach across so many different causes and arenas.” “The issue for her was always helping people be seen. It was a tremendous gift.” For her mother, part of valuing people as individuals included helping them find ways to participate, Morva added. “That’s why we’re asking people to bring homemade cookies to the reception. It was her idea. Baking was a favorite activity of Mom’s with her grandchildren. “Even at the end she was thinking about how everyone could share and participate.” McDonald’s survivors include her husband, Joe McDonald; four children, JoElyn Newcomb, Paul McDonald, Jason McDonald and Morva McDonald; eight grandchildren; a brother, Howard Nellor; and a sister, Sharlene Clatanoff. Memorial donations may be made to the Foundation for Tulsa Schools’ Partners in Education program. To send a flower arrangement in memory of Nancy McDonald, please click here to visit our sympathy store. 25 �Services Celebration of Life Sunday, November 12, 2023 4:00 PM All Souls Unitarian Church 2952 S. Peoria Ave Tulsa, OK 74114 26 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2004] Nancy McDonald Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 18, 2004 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on July 18, 2004. Nancy was born in Omaha, Nebraska and raised on a farm near Beemer, Nebraska. She graduated from the University of Nebraska School of Medical Technology. She married Joe McDonald when he was a senior in medical school. They worked with the Air Force in medical fields for 10 years and settled in Tulsa in 1966 where Joe continued his medical practice. While facing a great deal of pushback, In the early 1970’s , Nancy became one of the leaders of the successful effort to voluntarily integrate the Tulsa Public Schools. She was further involved in the public sphere as head of the Girl Scout Council when 3 girls were murdered at Camp Scott in 1977. She became involved with the Tulsa Boy’s Home where Joe and Nancy soon helped raise the first Afro-American boy admitted to the home. They helped him through school and as a star player on the University of Tulsa Basketball team. Joe and Nancy became involved in the Tulsa LGBT scene as one of their daughters came out in 1986. At that time, Nancy had recently learned of PFLAG and set about creating a Tulsa chapter. Soon after, she became aware of Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights and its work addressing the AIDS crisis. With Joe’s support, she developed a very effective chapter and served as national president of PFLAG and also served on the board of TOHR. She testified before the U.S. Congress against the Defense of Marriage Act. She arranged for pride month displays at the downtown Tulsa City- County Library and led so many other efforts to improve education, children’s welfare, LGBTQ+ acceptance and the work to support open and affirming churches as noted in the interview. An addendum to her transcript includes an obituary as Nancy passed on October 23, 2023. Her beloved and constant supporter Joe McDonald, passed on February 12, 2026. Subject The topic of the resource Nancy McDonald Oral History Project Interview from July 18, 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Nancy McDonald, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2004 AIDS AIDS/HIV Air Force Defense of Marriage Act Girl Scouts HIV/AIDs interview Joe McDonald Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Nancy and Dr. Joe McDonald Nancy and Joe McDonald Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library Nancy McDonald Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library Obituaries Obituary OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) PFLAG PFLAG Tulsa Chapter Rainbow Library TOHR TPS transcript Tulsa Boy's Home Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Tulsa PFLAG Tulsa Public Schools Tulsa Public Schools (TPS) University of Nebraska video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/a9833ab5fe8328fbfdef9ec903c20de0.mp4 92825093a4ada74a717cc055997e13ba https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/3fc48b689864b8bf66fd6a4fc194b5ac.pdf 67e001a6f4d45e09317b66ff95c3f17b PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Nancy McDonald Interview Conducted by Anna Puhl Date: 2021 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, April 4, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �In 2021, Anna Puhl of the OkEq staff did a short interview with Nancy McDonald in her home. The interview focused on Nancy’s work on behalf of the LGBTQ+ community as a founder of PFLAG in Tulsa, her testimony before Congress concerning the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), and involvement with OkEq. Nancy McDonald Interview with Anna Puhl 2021 Nancy McDonald: Well, I think it's important to understand the mission of PFLAG. Yes. PFLAG has three components. It really is supportive of parents and LGBT people who are coming out to their parents on what is this all about. We have come so far since 1987. So we no longer get people coming to PFLAG who are crying because they had gay kids. Then the second component of PFLAG is to educate. Educate ourselves, to educate our family members, to educate our friends, our religious affiliations, the volunteer work that we may do. And the third component is advocacy. And those three prongs hold true for the local chapter as well as the national organization. So the national organization, one of the things that they wanted to support was gay marriage. And we thought, oh, this would never, ever come to be. And then all of a sudden, up pops DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act, sponsored by our congressman Steve Largent. And so they were going to have hearings on DOMA and PFLAG was asked to participate. So I went to Washington to participate on the panel discussion before the Justice Committee in Congress. That was, it was an interesting experience. And I was on the panel with Elizabeth Birch, who was at that time a president of the HRC, Human Resources Committee [Human Rights Campaign, now just HRC]. And also Andrew Sullivan, who was a Republican, a gay man, living with AIDS. And we were the last panel to be interviewed. Prior to that interview, Steve Largent walked into the room where we were being interviewed, all of these people were being interviewed about DOMA. And I thought to myself, it was very crowded, there was one seat to my right, the door was on my left, he wasn't going to get by me. And so I stood up and I said, you know, Representative Largent, I'm from Tulsa, Oklahoma. Oh, he was so glad to see me. And then he sort of puzzled, and he said, well, why are you here? And I said, I'm here to testify against DOMA, because that's very hurtful for my daughter and many other LGBT people. At that point in time, I had a hold of his hand. It's a very interesting and funny story. I don't know, I was holding his hand with both of my hands, and I didn't let go, as I was talking about how mean-spirited this piece of legislation was. I think he thought I was contagious, because he kept backing away with me and I wouldn't let go. And there was a photographer from the Washington Post sitting on the floor, snapping these pictures. It's now in the national PFLAG office, Steve Largent almost at a 90-degree angle as he tries to get away from me. So it was sort of funny. But then in the testimony, it was really interesting, because the first person, Elizabeth Birch, testified, and they had her crying, and they attacked her about being a lesbian. The second one was 2 �Andrew Sullivan. Andrew was HIV-positive, he was out, and it was just so meanspirited. And then I was the last person to testify against DOMA, and I took my chair and I just thought to myself, all of these men sitting on this panel are grandparents. And so I introduced myself. I introduced myself as a parent, and a grandparent. And at that point, you could have heard a pin drop in there. And they started asking me questions, and they were sort of mean. You know, I did the best that I could, but I knew when I ended that we were not going to be successful in getting this piece of legislation out of the House. So it moved forward, and then it was such a disappointment to me and to a lot of other people that Bill Clinton signed it. And so that was my one experience in Congress. But I also testified on the Employment Non-Discrimination Act. Anna Puhl: Tell me about it. Nancy McDonald: And that was, you know, what we were trying to do was to get a national law that you could not fire LGBT people because they were gay. That never really happened, but we picked up, you know, many, many, many, many corporations that just embraced that and put that as part of their policies. And then I also testified on HIV-AIDS drugs and the value of the federal government supporting drugs for HIV-AIDS. So, and that was successful. I feel really good about that one. But I had a number of experiences in Congress and working with Congress on policies to protect our LGBT youth. Certainly in Oklahoma, I worked on the antibullying legislation. It was defeated three times before we finally got it through. And it was a lot of education, one-on-one, with the local congressmen, or the local legislators, I should say. And that's a good piece of legislation. One of the challenges there, it does not specifically say gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender youth. It says youth. And the difficulty in getting that piece of legislation through the Oklahoma legislature is that they would get hung up on gay, lesbian, bi, and trans. And so I met with an attorney from ACLU and he said, don't worry about that, Nancy. What we want to get into that bill is all youth. And when we get all youth, that includes our youth. And so if there's any issue, or if someone files suit against a school district for a child being bullied because they're gay, we can use this piece of legislation. And so that's how we got it through the Oklahoma legislature. But we had to work hard. We never did get gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender people in our hate crimes, state-created hate crimes law. It's still a disappointment. Anna Puhl: We have a city ordinance. Nancy McDonald: That's right. We all should be very proud of our city. And the things that have happened in our city government policies, in our non-profit policies, in our corporate policies, in our public schools. Our kids and our teachers are protected. I'm so grateful to Dr. Gist to have continued that even though the former president, I refuse to say his name, the former president immediately abandoned that piece of legislation. 3 �Anna Puhl: Title IX, yeah. What are some challenges that you have overcome in your time, like more specified on OkEq than PFLAG? I love PFLAG stuff. What are some things you've done with OkEq or what are some accomplishments that you think OkEq has done? What are some things, like moments in your history with OkEq that you're proud of? Nancy McDonald: I'm so proud of just having a building that is a safe place for gay, lesbian, bi, trans people. And it is a real tribute to their board of directors and their leadership and the executive director for making that happen. It was a challenge to raise the money for this community center. We should be proud that we did not accept any federal grants, any federal money, any state money. This was raised locally from individuals and corporations and foundations that supported the LGBT community. I'm extremely proud of that. At the last gay pride parade, you know, I was doing it in my wheelchair and I just thought about it. I thought, my gosh, 10,000 plus people. We couldn't even get a parade permit. The city wouldn't let us have a parade. And we walked on the sidewalk to Veterans Park for our first fair community event. It took us two years to get that permit, thanks to Greg Gatewood and his leadership. And then to see the events around the city. And the booths and the people having fun, and it was well done. It was not anything that would make any of us ashamed. I'm always pleased that it's of such good quality, and maybe that's some other coming out of me, but I really want it to be topnotch good quality, something that all of us can be proud of, including parents. Anna Puhl: You brought up something that made me think: hold on, do you want to talk about the library? Nancy McDonald: Okay, I'll talk about the library. Sharon Thoele, who was the executive director of Tulsa Cares- and you know I was part of the founders of Tulsa Cares when we got our first Ryan White money to have a program to service our HIV-AIDS patients and clients- and Sharon Thoele decided that Joe and I needed to be recognized in some visible, tangible way, and so she came up with the idea of the library, and so we thought that was really lovely to have a library in our honor, but, more important than that, to have resources, books and films and videos and whatever pieces of information- for the LGBT community to come in and have a safe place to read and research and do all those things. So yes, Joe and I are very proud of our Joe and Nancy Library. Anna Puhl: I love the Joe and Nancy Library. I work in the History Project a lot, so it's kind of my home base, I think, as here we are in 2021, and I try to think about you know what are the needs. Nancy McDonald: I am still extremely concerned about our kids in public schools, and do we have adequate resources for them at their school level and how do we help our young people address the hate speech that is often directed at them from their peers? That's a big concern. I'm also concerned about how we continue to reach out and try to educate the evangelical person in this community, the churches, you know. I've been in the parades from the very beginning. I've seen the horrible signs. I just think it must be so difficult for LGBT people to walk by those. 4 �I always wanted to roll up to them and say: I've seen your signs for 20 years. You need to get some new ones. I worry about when we put our LGBT people at risk for hate speech. I often reflect on when I testified on DOMA. I know that that room was filled with young LGBT people and they sat there and had to listen to the hate speech from the congressman and I just ache for when that happens. I hope that we can continue to educate that this is no longer an issue. It certainly is better than it was in 1987, but I don't think we can give up and say the job is done- absolutely not. Anna Puhl: This is not a question for the thing, but out of curiosity, at Pride this year did you see anybody protesting? Nancy McDonald: Yes Anna Phul: Okay, I didn't go the whole parade route so I didn't know. Nancy McDonald: They had moved this year. They were up towards the beginning of the parade and they were there with all of their signs and their whistles and hate speech yelling at everybody and it's hateful and thank goodness for the Dykes on Bikes Because they just drove by and made lots of noise in front of them. I'm always grateful for the Dykes on Bikes I've seen I mean I participated in the San Francisco Gay Pride and the New York Gay Pride and I've participated in the 2 AIDS marches on Washington and I'm always grateful for the Dykes on Bikes. Anna Phul: So, how many children do you have and how many grandchildren do you have? Nancy McDonald: Well, we have four children and then we have sort of a semi adopted son. Okay, we never legally adopted him, but he's very much part of our family. And I have eight grandchildren and then Zach our sort of adopted son has two. Our youngest daughter, our gay daughter, went to Booker T. Washington. She's a great soccer player, but this is her mother talking. She went to Tufts University, and she was on the starting squad freshman year and then she has a degree in sociology and women's studies. Wasn't quite sure what she was going to do. She went to San Francisco worked in a law office. Didn't like that, decided that she really would like to be an English teacher of English learners or English language learners. So she went to Stanford and she had a master's and her PhD in education from Stanford and she is Living in Seattle, Washington. She is the headmistress of a private school in Seattle. She is married and she has two children Simon is 17 and Sadie is 14 Anna Phul: Can you were you like did you ever imagine that that she'd be married with two children? Nancy McDonald: No, never. Anna Puhl: Can you say that in a sentence? Does that make sense? Nancy McDonald: I think that every parent dreams about you know, what your children will become. They'll get married, heterosexual, they'll have children. They'll have you know, we will have lovely grandchildren. And you very quickly realize that's 5 �not the case. It is their life. And so when Morva came out we had to reconstruct our hopes and dreams for her. And one of the things was at that point in time, I didn't think she would ever be able to have a family. Not so. And so when she announced to us that she really wanted children, and she wanted us to be a part of that. We said absolutely. We love you no matter what. Held her hand. They're brother and sister [ pointing to a picture]. You know, you just that was not in our hopes and dreams for Morva. Even after she became after she came out, they thought she'll never have a family. But she does, she has a lovely family. Anna Puhl: That's so cool. Yeah,you're gonna like be a showstopper on these things, you know. [ Pointing to Joe McDonald] He can be the quiet one. Nancy McDonald: Super dad. 6 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2021] Nancy McDonald Interview Subject The topic of the resource Nancy McDonald Interview with Anna Puhl from 2021 Description An account of the resource In 2021, Anna Puhl of the OkEq staff did a short interview with Nancy McDonald in her home. The interview focused on Nancy’s work on behalf of the LGBTQ+ community as a founder of PFLAG in Tulsa, her testimony before Congress concerning the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), and involvement with OkEq. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Nancy McDonald, Anna Puhl, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 2021 AIDS AIDS drugs AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV drugs Anna Puhl Defense of Marriage Act Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) DOMA HIV HIV drug study HIV/AIDs HIV/AIDS research interview Joe McDonald Nancy and Joe McDonald Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library Nancy McDonald Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) PFLAG PFLAG Tulsa Chapter Rainbow Library Sharon Thoele transcript Tulsa CARES Tulsa PFLAG video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/b95930bb43b6204cc0b535ce32caa168.mp4 469e654a90e50910f02a606edc370ad8 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/de83922a814abfccb89b44324379c8b2.pdf 24694ed11bcd4bf4f24f336d45fea72a PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Tom Neal Interview Conducted by Dennis Neill Date: April 30, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, May 23, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Tom Neal Summary In this in-depth interview, Tom Neal shares his life journey, from growing up in Oklahoma to becoming a community activist and publisher. He discusses his experiences with LGBTQ+ advocacy, the evolution of Tulsa's community spaces, and his reflections on social progress and challenges. Keywords LGBTQ+ history, Tulsa community, activism, journalism, HIV/AIDS, LGBTQ+ rights, community building, personal story Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction 00:29 Tom Neal's Early Life and Family Background 01:15 Education and Early Influences 02:11 School Experiences and French Class Antics 03:11 College Years and Architectural Studies 04:21 Moving Back to Tulsa and Community Involvement 07:16 Growing Up LGBTQ+ in Tulsa 08:38 Realization of Sexual Identity and Puberty 09:46 Early Role Models and Family Support 11:20 First Awareness of Being Different 12:28 Family Reactions and Relationships 13:54 Exploring Sexuality and Personal Growth 15:16 Involvement in LGBTQ+ Organizations and Activism 16:42 Community Engagement in Dallas and Tulsa 18:40 Founding Tulsa Family News 2 �20:05 Courage to Be Open and Advocate 22:12 Memories of Bruce Goff and Architectural Roots 24:08 First Encounters with HIV/AIDS in Los Angeles 27:24 Activism and Civil Rights Work 35:19 Journalism and Publishing Journey 42:54 Proudest Achievements and Challenges 44:17 Memorable Moments and Mistakes in Publishing 45:24 Reflections on Community and Progress 50:22 Involvement with Oklahoma LGBTQ+ Organizations 58:51 Early Days of the LGBTQ+ Center in Tulsa 01:06:49 Community Challenges and Progress 01:11:49 The Impact of Media and Community Scattering 01:16:46 Reflections on Activism and Community Building 01:23:18 Future Plans and Personal Reflections Tom Neal Oral History Interview April 30, 2026 Dennis Neill: Good morning. It is April the 30th, 2026. I am Dennis Neill, and I am in the Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library at the Oklahoma Equality Center, and I'm here with Tom Neal. We have the pleasure of interviewing him, and with me is Mary Bishop-Baldwin, an archivist that is working with us here at the Center. So Tom, would you introduce yourself by mentioning your name and your age and where you grew up? Tom Neal: I'm Tom Neal. I'm 68. I was born in Oklahoma City, but we moved here when I was three, so I pretty much consider myself being from Tulsa. Dennis Neill: And tell me a little bit about your early life, your family life, your education as an adolescent. Tom Neal: Sure, so my father is a retired anesthesiologist, and he moved here to start the anesthesia department at St. Francis, and of course at that time, St. Francis was the edge of the city, and our little housing development, Holiday Hills, was about the only only place to live that was near the hospital. I think that was even before the LaFortunes donated their farm to become LaFortune Park. I don't remember this, but that's what I remember my mom saying. I have four brothers, two older, two younger. I'm biologically related to my three younger, two younger brothers, excuse me, and my two older brothers were adopted by my family, though they're biologically related to each other. Went through TPS, Carnegie, which I'm proud to say is still considered one of the best schools in the city, elementary schools, Nimitz, and then Memorial, and most people usually get thrown out of private schools and wind up going to a public school. I managed to get thrown out of a public school and wound up finishing up at Holland Hall my last couple of years, so I'm not sure it's a distinction to be proud of, but it's part of my history. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: What did you do to get kicked out? 3 �Tom Neal: I think I smarted off to one of the disciplinarians who was a coach, and they had sent me home for something, and I was feeling oppositional, so instead of going home, which most kids probably want to go home, I went to my French class, and he came and threatened to drag me bodily out of the French class, and so I spoke to him only in French at that point, which of course, and he later told my parents that I had cussed him out in French. I don't know, I didn't know when he cussed words in French, so that wasn't actually true, but anyway….wound up being one of the best things for me academically. I spent a couple semesters, well, I spent one semester at the American College in Paris. I was a little too young as a freshman to be that far away from home. There's a reason you do it in junior year, but I came back and went to the University of Tulsa for a couple semesters, and then I transferred to Rice in Houston and finished up there, class of 1980, with a degree in art and architectural history. Not very employable, but very interesting, and also a degree that involved a lot of writing, which may be relevant to other things. I also wound up having pretty intensive writing instruction when I was at Holland Hall, so that was a benefit there, too, as well as a couple of really good French teachers at Holland Hall. Then I moved from Houston to Dallas, started going to architecture school at the University of Texas at Arlington, and then left to go to an architecture program in Los Angeles, lived there for about four years, and then decided that the day that they had, well, this is just circumstantial, but the day that they had both an earthquake and a tornado in Los Angeles is the day that I moved back to Tulsa. So, and then worked here in Tulsa for a couple years, particularly for two architects, Kathleen Page and Rachel Williams-Zabrowski. Wonderful, wonderful people, who, after I worked with them maybe two years, Kathleen took me aside and said, we're firing you, not because we don't like your work, but because you need to go back to school and finish your architecture degree, because I had begun it, but not finished it. And I said, well, gee, thanks, maybe, but, so I wound up shopping my credits to Oklahoma State and then to OU, and Oklahoma State, they're like, well, you didn't do it here, you need to start from the beginning, and OU said, we're going to give you credit for almost everything, so I'm a Sooner, that was a no-brainer. So Rice, 1980, University of Oklahoma, 1989. Lived in Dallas again and then came back to Tulsa after my mother had an aneurysm, which she survived, thanks be to God, and have been in Tulsa. And that was probably, well, you [Dennis] and I knew each other before. I had met you when TOHR was almost new, and you and Doug [Hartson] and all that crew were doing stuff at the Aaronson Auditorium. But I think that might have been when I was working for Kathleen. And then I came back in 93 and got involved in, went to Pride, at that point still kind of in the wilds of Mohawk Park, and kind of got involved in the community. Kelly was leading things, Kelly Kirby was leading things then, and kind of went from there. Before I had a little, I'd been involved in a retail, a lesbian owned retail store in Dallas on Cedar Springs, in the heart of a kind of gay village. And so I tried to recreate that in Tulsa, even though it's a very different dynamic. Dallas had that concentrated 4 �little bit of community, whereas now and then, Tulsa's community is kind of scattered. And I had a store at the Silver Star Retail Store for about a year. Dennis Neill: Do you remember what year that would have been? Tom Neal: That would have been about probably 94-ish, 1994-ish. Dennis Neill: And was that Tomfoolery? Tom Neal: Yes, it was called Tomfoolery. Yeah, and it was a, kind of like Tulsa Family News, it was a, compared to some LGBT retail establishments, it was a pretty vanilla, clean, I didn't have things that you wouldn't, that you'd be ashamed to show your mother, for example. So, same with the paper, did not, tried to be a legitimate news outlet within my skill set. Anyway, so how am I doing? Dennis Neill: Great, so let's talk a little bit more about your early years, growing up in school, kind of your peers and your activities both within the school and any out of school activities that were of particular interest to you during that growing up phase. Tom Neal: Golly, well, I was like a lot of gay kids, I was probably pretty obviously gay, from elementary school, and I do remember getting harassed, at that time, it was just bullying, it was kind of the ethos of the time. A little bit at Carnegie, more so at Nimitz, junior high seems to bring out the worst, particularly in boys, but there's some mean girls too, you know. And actually, I remember also getting harassed at Memorial, there was one young man who used to, I didn't, I don't think I even knew his name, I don't think I'd ever met him, but whenever we would encounter each other in the hallways, he would scream faggot at me, which was, well, that's lovely. And I'm like, you know. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: How did you react to that? Tom Neal: Well, it made me angry, but there wasn't, I mean, there were no, there were no very few, to my knowledge, no support resources. I, like a lot of gay men of that era, tried to, was kind of in denial. I think, I do remember at age 16, I decided, being gay is not very easy and I'm not going to be gay, because I'm just a pig-headed gay and I figured I could just kind of will myself not to be gay. And that lasted until 24. And I was in a relationship with a young lady and she broke up with me and I thought, probably this is the time I need to just acknowledge, but we lived together and, to some degree had a fairly successful relationship. Dennis Neill: Any children? Tom Neal: No, no, no, no. We were not married and we did not have children. We worked really hard not to have children, trust me. Dennis Neill: So, going back a little bit to when you were first feeling your identity, can you talk a little bit about your evolution of realizing what your identity is and how you experienced that early on? Tom Neal: I think the thing that's important to remember, I’m a little bit of a history nerd, so, I was born in 1957, so 1977, I was 20. Back five years, 1972, I was 15, right? If I'm doing the math right. And 1972 Stonewall had only happened three years before. 5 �There was no, there was not, I mean, if you wanted to like look at images of a male figure, I think, like, you got to check out the football players' tight pants and look at the underwear section in the Sears and Roebuck, which is all airbrushed by the way, so. So, I mean, there was no, there was no, there was no, I mean, there was actually no role models. There was nothing out there and particularly, maybe in New York or, California, but not, I don't think so even there particularly, but even less so in Tulsa, Oklahoma. My parents, who wound up over the years being tremendously supportive of TOHR and the things I did with the community, loaning me, donating at times, loaning me their truck if we needed to set up things for Pride when we did the first Pride in Owen Park. Even though they were old school conservative Republicans, not the new ones, faithful Presbyterians and in hindsight, given that I could have been born into a Baptist or some kind of evangelical kind of tradition, I'm really grateful because the Presbyterians didn't say anything homophobic. We didn't exist. They didn't acknowledge our existence, but that was more benign than certainly other options. I met a young man at Trinity recently who identified himself as a refugee from a Southern Baptist upbringing. Dennis Neill: When did you first kind of distinguish between being gay and being heterosexual or being homosexual? When did that first kind of come into your mind? Tom Neal: Puberty. I mean, puberty hit and I knew that, I'm like, okay. One of these things is not like the other and I'm like, the other dudes are like, hey, there's this girl who will meet you behind New Haven Methodist Church and you can have some fun. This is in junior high, mind you, and I'm like, I couldn't get out of the, I'll pass. I mean, I knew that I didn't want to do that, and I think that's pretty. Dennis Neill: Did you date at all in junior high? Tom Neal: Just the standard, ask a girl to go to a dance because your best buddy was going to a dance and, so you wanted to go with them and, you know. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Realizing this about yourself, that you were different, did that scare you? Tom Neal: No, but I think I was really lucky. Our mother was a woman of very, very strong character. She had endured, survived some really serious health challenges as a young woman and I think she just, I don't know, I think somehow we got imbued with that strength of character, , that I'm not the problem, y'all may have a problem, but I'm not the problem, who I am. And that's a gift from my parents that I cannot underestimate. So no, I basically… like I know that young LGBT plus people sometimes have suicidal thoughts, that kind of stuff, and I'm like, F that. I am fine. The problem is with you guys. Dennis Neill: So how did you explore your sexuality with your family, both your parents and your siblings? How did that evolve and have there been issues that have brought discomfort to either you or the family? 6 �Tom Neal: I don't think my older brothers talked about it. We didn't talk, but they're enough older. My oldest brother was born in 1949 and my next brother in 51, so they were off into the world while I was growing up. So we have a good relationship now, but we weren't, they were awake. They were off at college, one brother was in Korea. So less of an issue. My youngest brother is seven years younger, so he was a baby during some of this time. Tom Neal: Really my next younger brother, to whom I'm probably, I hate to pick favorites, closest, but we talk every day now that you can talk for free, and he somehow fell into more evangelical traditions, faith traditions. And so at times it was very difficult. I mean, for a while he worked for American Airlines and I think they still do, but particularly then they had non-revenue benefits where family members could fly for next to nothing. And at one point he was like, you're using these benefits to go do gay things and I, you can't, I forbid that you should do that because you're doing gay things. And I don't approve. And I'm like, I said, you don't tell your mother-in-law what she can go do with her non-revenue benefits, you know? So, I mean, because I was living in Dallas and I went to ILGA, which is the International Lesbian and Gay Association Conference in Stockholm. And the only reason I could do it was because I had basically an almost free ticket, though I did have some application fees and DGA, Dallas Gay Alliance, it was called then. I asked them to give me some funds to help with the trip and, so, and I... Dennis Neill: So, that is after you finished which level of education you were... Tom Neal: That was, that was after I finished up at Rice. No, that was probably after finishing both degrees, because I lived in Dallas in between the degrees, and then I lived in Dallas after the degrees, because I graduated from OU, had enough to go to work with Stan Grala, who's the G in GH2, and probably should have worked for Stan. We had a great working relationship. The H's, Mike and Kara Hall, went to work for him. Stan designed horse barns. He was an equestrian architect. Very different practice, right? But I wound up working for a firm here in Tulsa, and then I got an opportunity to work for RTKL, which is a very prestigious firm in Dallas, and I moved back to Dallas and worked for them. What was the question? Circle back. Dennis Neill: Kind of your activities in Dallas. Tom Neal: I just was involved in community stuff. Obviously kind of had the bug in. I had gotten involved in LGBT plus activism at OU, because we were trying to get a nondiscrimination policy for OU, which the university did not have, and they were not particularly willing. They were actually quite unwilling to add that on, and so we lobbied the Board of Trustees, Board of Regents. I went to a black alumni dinner once to talk to the one black regent, just to see, because it was the only opportunity to get face-to-face with her. Since this happened, OU's gotten there. I wish it got there a lot faster, much to my chagrin. I think Laura [Belmonte] was a big part of that, to be honest. I kind of found my voice there. I never really wanted, thought I would be an activist. So I'd gone there because I already had an undergraduate degree. My course load was lighter. My first year was, so I didn't have to do all the distributions. All I had to do was the architecture 7 �program. Well, the first year I got most of that out of the way, so my second year I'm like, and I ran for the Student Congress, and got elected, and again was just really agitating to try to get all this, and then when I came, after I finished up, I kind of continued that in the community, and that was in Dallas. I was involved with GLAAD, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, which at that time, it was not a single office national organization. It was a bunch of chapters around the country. There was a chapter in San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York, obviously D.C., maybe Atlanta, I don't know for sure, but one in Dallas, and got involved with that. And my dear friend of mine, CeCe Cox, who's from Bartlesville, who's been the head of the gay, the equivalent of OkEq in Dallas, was kind of my comrade-in-arms in that, and we kind of built GLAAD and went to organizing meetings. In the process of trying to create a national GLAAD organization, we had meetings all over the country to do that. Dennis Neill: How were you finding the fight at OU? Tom Neal: At OU? I am class of 89, and I went there in 87, so it would have been between 87 and 89. Dennis Neill: And did you have an organized gay or lesbian group on campus that was helping you? Tom Neal: Yeah, yeah, we did. Dennis Neill: Were you very involved in that? Tom Neal: I was one of the leaders of that at one point. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Let me ask you about that. Tom Neal: Yeah. Dennis Neill: You were working on a graduate degree in architecture at that time or another undergraduate… Tom Neal: So I actually took a second undergraduate degree, but in architecture, you can do a four-year degree, but then you have to have a two-year master's in order to have a qualifying degree to be professionally licensed. Or you can do a five-year degree, which qualifies you for professional licensing. So I went and spent two more years, combined with my other undergraduates, to get a B-Arch, which is a five-year degree. In hindsight, I wish I had gotten a master's, because later, I wound up teaching at TCC, and if I had had a master's, I could have continued teaching. But anyway, that's... Maty Bishop-Baldwin: So while you were there, you said there were no protections for LGBT people. Tom Neal: Correct. 8 �Mary Bishop-Baldwin: But yet, you were willing to put your face and your name out there and say, hey, I'm gay, and we need these protections. What gave you the strength and courage to do that when you knew that you could be expelled just for being gay? Tom Neal: Well, I don't think they were actually doing… I don't know that they would have done that. I guess they could have technically, but I don't think they would have because they'd have to, they'd lose way too much of the university. But two, I would go back to my blessed mother whose, courage in life, kind of informed, my, I don't know, maybe it's the Zodiac is somewhat esoteric, but, Leo, I mean, I'm like I'm right and they're wrong. Dennis Neill: Could you post posters about your meetings? Were you undercover… Tom Neal: No, we were not undercover and in fact I think we had student funding like any other student organization. Somebody else had won that battle before I got there and because they started, I was not there then. But every student organization needs a faculty sponsor, and our faculty sponsor was a groundbreaking African-American professor, Dr. Henderson- I can't remember his first name, not gay, not even remotely gay, but committed to the notion that people, all people, should be treated fairly, and as a black man understanding some of that struggle. Dr. Henderson agreed to be the faculty sponsor and, like I say he'd been that for some time. He didn't really do anything day to day. You know we had to have a signature, I think once a year and yeah, so you know there was another advantage. My blessed father paid for my tuition, so I wasn't dependent on scholarships. I had a certain amount of economic invulnerability. I went back to OU when I was 29, and at 29, hopefully you've got your act together a little bit better and you know I'm like… Dennis Neill: what was the name of the organization? Tom Neal: That's a good question, Dennis. I can't remember. I could probably Google it, it's probably out there with like everything else. Dennis Neill: So, being in an architectural program at OU, did you have any background on Bruce Goff and his role at OU? Do you want... about what you encountered at OU and then the subsequent history, if you know about how OU kind of redeemed Bruce Goff? Tom Neal: Well, it's really interesting because I wound up again my last year- I had a little extra time, so I was involved as a student representative of different things, like we had a lecture committee, and I was the student rep and this kind of stuff. And I remember having lunch. We had an Englishman who was one of our professors there and they brought a speaker- in no idea who that speaker was. I was invited to lunch at the faculty club or whatever, and we were having lunch with him and they were talking about Bruce Goff. But at that point he was like we don't talk about the fact that Bruce Goff was a gay man and that the university was hostile to him during some of that time, and I of course brought that up and I thought the English guy was going to kind of have a little fainting spell perhaps. But yeah, no, certainly, even then Bruce Goff has certainly been radically embraced by the university. Now wasn't as much then. They weren't, but 9 �they were proud of his work. They just didn't want to talk about the- you know the not so pretty history of how the university treated him. Dennis Neill: If you go into the architectural school at OU now, do you see evidence of Bruce Goff? Tom Neal: I would imagine, though I have not been back in some years. I haven't been in that building since I served on the Tulsa Preservation Commission for three years and we had a training session at OU and that's the last time I was there, but that was when Dewey Bartlett was mayor. So that gives you- I can't remember the date on that, but that's been seven or eight years at least, if not maybe longer. Dennis Neill: Where were you when you first learned about HIV-AIDS? Tom Neal: Oh, absolutely, I lived in Los Angeles, which is one of the epicenters. LA, New York, San Francisco were all hit hard and I had a couple of kind of best older, best friend, gay guys who had been my neighbors and they kind of adopted me. They were like my gay uncles, and they started. My friend Kerry got sick first and then wound up... it was the classic early, what are we talking? Nineteen, eighty-three, probably about eighty-three, because I graduated from Rice in eighty and lived a couple years in Dallas, went to California and Kerry and Phillip were partners. We lived in the same loft building in downtown Los Angeles before it was stylish to do so, by the way, it was right in between Little Tokyo, which was nice, and Skid Row, which was not so nice, and we were closer to Skid Row. But they were my neighbors there and then we also wound up living in an apartment building in mid-Wilshire, much nicer part of town. Kerry got sick, wound up in part of the big hospital, public hospital. It was east of downtown and in those days people got pneumonia, they died. It's that fast and nobody knew what the hell was going on. You know Kerry… digressing slightly, well, he was from Indiana, so he went home, Philip went with him, I flew back. In those days it was prior to 9-11, so you could like, I actually took a thing of sushi because he wanted sushi. So I carried sushi halfway across the country and then he couldn't eat it because he just wasn't feeling well. Those were kind of dire days. And I remember going to get my first HIV test, which at that time nobody in Los Angeles was doing it. The only place was the center in Long Beach. You drove 30 miles to Long Beach and then you waited for two weeks because it was not an instant test, and thanks be to God. You know I'm- the term had not been invented yet- but I realized that I'm probably demisexual, which means I kind of like to know people before I have sex with them. I'm not going to go into too much sex here, but so I think that probably might have…maybe didn't get infected because of that, because I'm like I just am not comfortable with this and so, but that was not the ethos at the time. Dennis Neill: I'd like to spend a little bit more time about your personal knowledge of HIV/AIDS, since it's shaped generations, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you first encountered it in LA and you've been in Dallas and Tulsa. Just talk a little bit more about your path in activism particularly related to HIV/AIDS. 10 �Tom Neal: I think to be honest, I focused more on civil rights issues because there were already a lot of people working on HIV issues, particularly when I wound up back in Tulsa after 93. TOHR had the testing program that later became HOPE. So those kind of were covered when I was involved in TOHR leadership. Of course we were, they were us and we were they and you know being supportive of the two programs. it's just, I don't know, it's just, I mean I'm a regular visitor here for the testing program. So I even brought my… I had a foster kid for a while and I brought my foster kid because he's like I need to get tested. And I said, and my foster kid was straight, very straight, extremely straight, and I said, Nathan, your risk factors are really, really low. I mean, I'm sure we can do this, but I don't see…What I didn't know, the other tests they do, along with the HIV test, is syphilis. Yeah, my foster kid tested positive for that. So we had a little conversation about safer sex as well as the concept of statutory rape, because I think the young lady with whom he'd been involved, who apparently was the initiator, I said it doesn't matter if she initiates it, if she's 14, you're going to prison. He was 17. So yeah, sorry, I have a little ADD, and so we, my conversations, are almost always meandering, so I don't know really how to add to that. It's always been kind of part of, I mean, I feel, on some level, I think any of us, you know gay men, but lesbians too, not necessarily for the same reason. We've all kind of been informed and scarred by that experience, because… Dennis Neill: Have you lost many acquaintances or friends to AIDS. Tom Neal: Some, probably would have been more if I'd spent more time in more exclusively gay circles. But, like I say, in Los Angeles I was going to architecture school. And the majority of the people I was around were heterosexual. So at least in that time their exposure and their risk factors were a lot lower. So enough, particularly Kerry and Philip. I mean I remember I kept up with Philip after Kerry died and Philip was from, he was from Massachusetts and went back there and I remember thinking I need to call, I need to call, I need to call see how he's doing. But I kept putting it off because I was really I was afraid that I would hear that he had died. And I finally called and I got his mother and he was, he was very, very Italian Catholic family, you know. So I mean, that was his Boston identity and we had a sad conversation, because she was like she- not her exact words, but it was like honey, you know. Now he's gone, you know. So anyway, yeah, I don't know. Dennis Neill: I should have asked you this earlier: design has been kind of your life. What was your stimulus that got you so interested in design work and was there any other career path that you considered other than architectural? Tom Neal: Well, I published a newspaper for eight years, so without any formal journalistic training other than the writing that I alluded to at Holland Hall, and then if you're in an art history program, basically art history is dealt with by writing about it, right? So I think I developed those but, and that I kind of more fell into might also have been kind of an outgrowth from the work with GLAAD, an awareness of how critical media is to our community towards representation. 11 �But the architecture stuff, I think it was always an interest. So my mother is from a little tiny town called Wewoka in east central Oklahoma and my grandfather had a barber shop in downtown Wewoka next to the movie theater. He'd always wanted to be a physician, but his father had what we now call Alzheimer's or dementia and wound up in the state. My great-grandfather would have been in the state hospital in Norman, because that's all they had, that's all they could do. Tom Neal: So he wound up being a barber because he had, like I don't know, half a dozen siblings and somebody had to help take care of them. So and my grandmother learned to be a beautician. They had the barber shop in front and the beautician shop in the back and in those days, you had magazines galore, right, because pre-Internet we didn't all look at our phones, so you had like the hunting magazines and the sports magazines in the barber shop in the back they had like House Beautiful, House and Garden and whatever those kind of things, and some of them would show one of the magazines would have plans, would have the floor plans of the houses, and I remember being you know little kid, I was fascinated. I would sit in the barber shop or in the beauty shop, depending, and look at the magazines and study the plans. The interest was there. I also think that if you think about left brain, right brain and wiring the way, I think I have a memory which also fits with an art history degree. I have a strong visual memory, much more so than other things, so like for love or for money, I can probably not remember the name of a song or song lyrics. That kind of information is like gone as soon as it's in my head it's gone, but visual stuff stays with me and, by way of example, years ago I was, I had worked for 10 years doing kitchen bath design for Home Depot while I kind of did my practice on the side. So I met a lot of people. It's a downtown store, very diverse, you know north side, south side, midtown, wherever- and I'd gone into Petty's- and God rest its soul right. So for something I didn't usually shop there- and there was an older, very distinguished couple and I said, oh, Tom, how nice to see you and I'm going… Usually I can remember faces but I'm like I have no idea who these people are, not a clue. You helped us with our kitchen, this, that and the other, and we still love it three or four years later. And they said: and that island. And I said, oh, the island. Oh, wait, a minute now did we do this, this? And this wasn't the island, kind of like this. I remembered the island. I could not remember who they were, but I could remember the visual, the design that we did for that. I think for better, for worse, that's where my brain wiring is. And I'm at the risk of being immodest, I'm pretty good at what I do because I think I'm working with my natural tendencies or skillset. Right. Dennis Neill: So you bring up your interest in writing and, excuse me, journalism. Let's talk a little bit more about your early introduction into publication and writing. And I do recall, right, Tom, that you were a writer for the Parachute. And I believe that was Chuck Breckridge. Tom Neal: Who's still in town. Yes. Reverend Chuck. Good. That'll be wonderful. Dennis Neill: So just talk us through, kind of chronologically, your interest in journalism, how you got involved and how the new world has impacted journalism and why you decided to stop publishing. 12 �Tom Neal: So I came back to Tulsa, I, at that point was, I mean, I had my little retail store that I wanted to do, but I also needed something else to make a little bit more money. And so Chuck was doing a newspaper, he was based in Wichita, but he was distributing the paper here. And he, I think, offered a job to sell advertising for him. So I took that with the understanding I would also write, I would write to him, I'd be the local writer. And I did that for him for a few months before I realized that I could do it myself and cut out the boss, which maybe is not very nice, but, and so that's when I started Tulsa Family News, title, definitely deliberately ironic. And but with, we were, I had an AP subscription, it was, the intention was to be within the boundaries of my skills, as good and as serious of a newspaper as we could do. And I did that, I think it was eight years. I later, the store closed because the lease ended. And I was also, I don't smoke. And being in a smoky bar till two o'clock in the morning, most of the nights of the week was just a little much. And I wound up taking a job at Home Depot and fell into the design position then. And I was just burning myself the candle at both ends, it was just too much to work full time, do the newspaper. And I finally, after eight years, just said, I’ve, I just, I can't do this. It was right on the edge of the transformation because of the Internet and that kind of thing. If you think about Dennis and Mary, when I came back to Tulsa, we were just beginning to have cell phones, because I remember the number I still had today is one that I got through the LGBT business group that, there was somebody offering cell phones at a discount to the group, and that was my first cell phone. And then personal computers were just coming in, well, had just started coming in when I was at OU in 1989, because they had the first very rudimentary CAD programs, Computer Aided Drafting. At the time I was doing this it met a need in the community, in my opinion, continue to fight battles, like trying to get Tulsa City County Public Library to let us be in the library, free distribution, which they offered without question or restriction to everybody until we ask, God bless Pat Woodrum. And then they changed the rules so that they didn't have to let us in. And I think that went on until I, let's see if I can remember his name, he was a County Commissioner at the time, and he's since, I think he lives mostly in Buena Vista, Colorado these days, but I got a hold of him and said, this would probably be a really good First Amendment lawsuit, and really embarrassing for the City County Library system that they are not allowing a publication in when their whole purpose is to promote publications and reading, and shortly after that the policy changed. Dennis Neill: To allow you back in? Tom Neal: Yeah. To allow us, yeah. Dennis Neill: Do you recall what time frame we're talking about, and how long it took to resolve? 13 �Tom Neal: I think I was doing the publication between about 94, 93, 94, and eight years later, so around 2000, so it was sometime in that period. Maybe his name is Bob, I could look it up, but yeah, yeah. You would recognize the name, yeah. Dennis Neill: And was it every two months, is that when… Tom Neal: Every month. Every month. Dennis Neill: And then who actually printed the publication? Tom Neal: Well, so that was another thing. I got turned down left and right by printers, by other people, and I finally happened to talk to Dave, I can't remember Dave's last name, more of those escaping names, but he was the publisher of the Claremore Daily News, and I drove up to Claremore, and they published it for me, and then I went back to Claremore, got it, and then I dragged my backside all over town distributing it, you know. So it was pretty much a one-person show, me, me, and me. Dennis Neill: But now, how was John Christjohn… Tom Neal: At the time, he and I were living together… Dennis Neill: As partners? Tom Neal: Yeah and we had met in Dallas and then he moved up here and we're still friends. Full disclosure, he is a tenant in one of my garage apartments. It's kind of hard to find a place to live when you have three or four dogs and no money. So not trying to throw him under the bus too much. But anyway, so he wrote for me because he was kind of part of it and sometimes, he helped with parts of it. I had a number of writers. My friend Merry Schepers, I think wrote, something about the handy lesbian or something. She did home improvement stuff. There was Mark Wright who's an attorney, Native American attorney who I think lives in DC now and he would do food reviews and honest God, the ladies who started Wild Fork, he wrote a horrible, horrible, mean review of them. And I'm like, I'm gonna publish it. Try not to censor my writers. And they were furious at me for years and did not believe me that I, they thought I'd written it. And I'm like, I'm not that much of a foodie and no, there is a person, I'm not gonna tell you his name because that's part of the deal, but I did not write it. And I think they may have forgiven me, but for about 10 years I'm pretty sure they didn't forgive me, so. Dennis Neill: How about Dyke Devine? Was she a column in your paper? You recall that? Tom Neal: Maybe. I don't remember. Dennis Neill: I think that might have been Anna Dodwell that wrote it. Tom Neal: Yeah, it might have been. Yeah, yeah, because Anna and I are still, I don't think she lives here now. Tom Neal: Yes, she does. 14 �Tom Neal: I know we, I think we're Facebook connected, but you know. Yeah, yeah. Dennis Neill: So looking over your eight years of publications, what do you consider your greatest achievement, like a storyline or investigative report? What is one of your proudest moments of being a publisher? Tom Neal: Two things. I think I did, early on, did an interview with Susan Savage, which, I mean, getting a major, to our city, public official to interview with an LGBT publication, I think that was kind of a nice little coup. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: She was mayor at the time. Tom Neal: She was mayor at the time. I kind of had to shame her into it, so, but we got there. And, and then I did an interview with Steve Largent, who was either running for Congress, no, I think he was running for Congress, but later was our congressman, first district congressman, with whom I had tremendous political, theological and philosophical differences, but he was always very, very civil. He was a very decent man, at least interacting with him as a person. I like those, those two things. I think just surviving for eight years is maybe an accomplishment. Speaker 3: What was the rest of the question? Tom Neal: There was something. Dennis Neill: That was really it. How about a low, where you really feel like... Tom Neal: The lowest low, and you might appreciate this, is when I misspelled Tahlequah in the headline above the fold. That chapped my backside. You needed a copy editor, didn't you? But it was me, me, me, me, and me. I was, I was, and it was like, it was in print. I had however many copies I had printed every month before I even realized. I'm like, oh, something about some community organizing in Tahlequah or something with Northeastern State. I don't remember that. All I remember is that I screwed it up with the spelling. That, that really, I mean, I'm sure there are other things. I think there may have been a story that they jumped and then disappeared. But, considering that that has happened in major, in like the Tulsa World and other publications, and they had a lot more people to help them than I did, maybe I'll cut myself some slack. Dennis Neill: So, Mary, you have some other questions around journalism. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Let's see, when you were writing for Chuck Breckenridge for his publication, and you thought, I can do this myself, how did it feel to go out on your own in competition with him, the man who had been your boss? Tom Neal: Well, we had not worked together for very long. I mean, it was probably only maybe three or four months. And again, I have tried over the years to make a point to be civil with people, even with whom I've had an argument in the past, or with whom I have lots of disagreements. I mean, God rest her and Joe's soul, but Nancy MacDonald and I did not see eye to eye on a whole lot of stuff, and I was very vocal about it, and I wrote about it at times, and pissed off…I think there are still gay men in this community for 15 �whom Nancy was a saint, and they're angry at me about it. But she was like another mother, or at least an aunt, and Joe and my father are the same generation, and he practiced at St. John's, he was an anesthesiologist as well. So, I mean, I guess my point is, I kind of strayed away from your original question, but my point is, we've got to be nice to each other. Even if we, I mean, I'm sure I pissed you [Dennis] off about something somewhere along the way, though you've always been so kind and gracious to me, you know. So, I'm sure there have been other people. Well, Tim and I have struggled, you know. God bless him, but even we, these days at least, I think are civil. Yes, sir? Dennis Neill: So, what was your competition during that period of time? Of course, the Gayly has continued to publish over this period of time, and just knowledge about other publications would be very helpful during your era, or really any of the time that you weren't even publishing, your interest in the other journalistic world reaching out to our community. Tom Neal: Really, other than the Parachute, there have been things before. Oklahoma City, I mean, the Gayly has always been kind of OKC-centric, you know. I mean, and it was, maybe they're doing better now, but at that time they really, they were distributed in Tulsa, but they didn't really cover Tulsa to a meaningful degree. I think Chuck got busy with other, I don't know that he continued, I don't remember how long he continued the Parachute after that. Next thing I know, he's here and he's working in a religious capacity rather than this. To be honest, Dennis, I don't think there was much. But again, about the time I was shutting down was about the time that everything, the Internet exploded, you didn't need a local news. When I started, you couldn't get this news any place else to any significant degree. I was going through AP specifically, Associated Press, specifically looking for stories of interest to the community. The Tulsa World was not covering LGBT plus stuff, and the local broadcast media, and of course I'm a print snob anyway, so, I think TV broadcast is kind of stupid news, but it has reach. Dennis Neill: So do you have any background on the Star or the Metro Star? I think they may have come after you. Tom Neal: I don't remember them much, to be honest. Dennis Neill: I guess there was some perspective, but also a publication around it. Tom Neal: Yeah, I just, again, since I don't really go out, I mean, and that was true even when I wasn't 68 years old. Dennis Neill: And, as a sign of the times, this is the month that the Gayly had to go all digital, they no longer do hard print. Tom Neal: I did not know that, wow. Dennis Neill: Yeah, Robin's been so loyal, continue that publication, but just financially realized that she could not continue to sustain a hard copy. 16 �Tom Neal: You don't do journalism for the money. It's like teaching a TCC, you don't do it for the money. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: I can verify that. Tom Neal: Yes, ma'am. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Adjunct? No, I meant about journalism. Tom Neal: Oh, yeah, about journalism, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dennis Neill: So, Tom, let's talk a little bit more about your role and knowledge and involvement with OHR, then TOHR, and then Oklahomans for Equality. So we first formed the organization in 1980. When was your first exposure to what was then OHR? Tom Neal: 1980? Probably about three years after that, and I think it had become TOHR at that point. Dennis Neill: 1985. Tom Neal: Okay. Maybe it was, yeah, maybe, yeah. I don't know. I do remember going down and going to the Aaronson Auditorium, and there was Doug Hartson, greeter par excellence, and, it was, there was always kind of a program, I've told the kids running this place they need to go back and do that some, they need to have periodic meetings and a program of some kind, but we'll see. And then, like I say, and then I was back at OU, so I was out of the picture, and I was in Dallas, and then I was back from Dallas, so... Dennis Neill: And you said in 84 was when you came back to Tulsa, is that right? Tom Neal: Yeah, I think, I think, yeah, that's why I wasn't around for OHR. I spent, maybe, I'm fuzzy with numbers, it's kind of like song lyrics and titles, I get, I have to have something to tie a memory to, but class of 80, Rice, two years in Dallas, I thought it was four years, but maybe three or four years in Los Angeles, and then back, and then working in Tulsa, probably for two or three years before I went to OU in 87. Somehow that math doesn't add up, so, maybe I was in one of those places less long than I remember, so. Dennis Neill: So you would have been dating my roommate, Mike Williams, and that would have been around 87 and 88. Tom Neal: Yeah, right before I went to OU, and that's when you and John first met, if memory serves me, and you were in that house over on Cincinnati or Boston, one of those places. Dennis Neill: Yeah, Boston Court. Tom Neal: Yeah, and I think I just signed a carport for you guys. Dennis Neill: Uh-huh, that's correct. Tom Neal: I forgot about that. 17 �Dennis Neill: So tell me a little bit about that time frame, so you were here for, I guess, a short period of time. Tom Neal: A couple years. Dennis Neill: Were you dating Mike while you were in Tulsa, or were you also... Tom Neal: No, I, we petered out, I don't know, I don't remember what happened, but yeah, I was dating him when I was in Tulsa. There's another guy with red hair, whose name I can't remember. That was when Kathleen, when I first went to work for her, she worked out of her house over by, well, kind of not far from your house, that same neighborhood. And then she went into this old red brick building over here off of, over on 3rd Street, it's kind of isolated by itself, Detroit, right, 4th and Detroit, right there, and she worked there, and then I went to OU. I'll be blunt, I don't think I've had great luck with relationships. Mr. Christjohn being one of the last ones, and it is flawed and toxic in many respects, but it's of many years' acquaintanceship. Dennis Neill: Then, 83, 84, you're back, I mean, sorry, 93, 94, you're back in Tulsa. Tom Neal: Right. Dennis Neill: You've got the store going on Silver Star, you've got your publication going, and then how did the TOHR come on your radar when you came back and your involvement, including being on the board and president? Tom Neal: Yeah, well, I got involved because I got involved in Pride, because I went to that first, I just was barely back in town and went to Pride, and it was in Mohawk Park, much to my chagrin. It was like hidden, and it was swampy, we'd had rains, not surprising, early summer in Tulsa, it was rainy, that's flood land, and it was just a big stinkin' mess. Dennis Neill: And do you recall, was TOHR actually the sponsor, or was that when the bars were still doing Pride? Tom Neal: I think it was the bars, it was the bars, because, and I had kind of an in with it, because I was, I had just started renting space from John and, was it John and Steve, who owned the Silver Star, and so I got involved in organizing it, and pushed to move it, and we moved it to Owen Park. Dennis Neill: So the next year? Tom Neal: The next year. Dennis Neill: So would that be, do you think, 94 or 95, or can you kind of? Tom Neal: Probably 94, probably 94. And that was one of the years that Mom and Dad lent me the truck, and that was, and we think, I think it was in Owen Park for a couple of years, maybe, and then other people took it over and it went different places, I mean, at one point, the parade went on Brookside, right? Dennis Neill: Yes. 18 �Tom Neal: On Riverside. Dennis Neill: The information we have, and you'll probably have a little more since you're the board president doing this, you might recall that Greg Gatewood got very involved and helped organize the 1998 Pride, which was down the sidewalks, because we didn't have a permit. Tom Neal: Right, I remember that, I covered that. Dennis Neill: And so I think Nancy and Greg worked together, and then in 99, Greg pursued the permit. So that was the first time we had it at what is now Dream Keepers, which was the Veterans Park, and we're not exactly sure when TOHR stepped back in to run Pride, but you probably were present at about around that time, I think. Tom Neal: So I think probably it's very possible that I might have kind of made that happen, that the bartenders, the bar crew kind of they were still there but kind of stepped back and I think they were only doing it because nobody else was. We also had a lot of pushback from people who were very uncomfortable moving out of the far reaches of Mohawk Park because Mohawk felt safe, and I had Owen Park, particularly at that time, a fairly neglected part of the city. it's a long way from Edison Street. It's the only major street through there. Y'all are still gonna be pretty safe and isolated in there, but it's got shade and it doesn't flood, you know. So I mean it was pretty prosaic in some place in this time, because it was definitely before Greg, Deborah Starnes and IDeborah was president at TOHR and we signed the lease for the building on Brookside that now that had a sushi place recently in the bottom, over at near Weber's Root Beer. You know it's kind of a 1940s building and owned by a local slumlord. We got lucky that we wrote into the contract that we had to make sure that the elevator was working, which apparently hadn't worked for ten years, and he had to drop some change to get it working. But we got the working elevator. I think we poured a tiny bit of concrete at the front step to make a semi-ramp to get people in and that was where you know there was, and Peterson- Claudette Peterson, was up there and one of my memories is when we were trying to get it ready to use, there was no big room in there. It had been a dental practice, is my memory, and so there are all these little rooms and we got in there and it was the bunch of guys from FUSO, which was an AfricanAmerican men's HIV outreach organization, and there's nothing like having four or five black queens with sledgehammers and me taking out the solid plaster and metal lath walls between these like five or six rooms to create the bigger room so we'd actually have a meeting space up there and fortunately they were not structural. I did check, I did check, but yeah, so we, got that all out and created that room and, I wound up putting a flagpole made out of just a galvanized metal pipe from Home Depot and clamps- because, again, we had no money, we had no budget- up on the top of the elevator shaft and we had this enormous five-by-eight flag that I bought through my store, and it kept getting stolen. People would come and take it, take it, but, yeah, but it was remarkable because suddenly, Tulsa, Oklahoma, with relatively little LGBT plus visibility, there's this big-ass gay pride flag flying over Brookside. It was really kind of lovely. Deborah Starnes and I actually personally put whatever limited funds we had at risk by signing that lease because we were personally on the hook for it. 19 �Dennis Neill: So what was the stimulus of moving from where we are at 39th and Harvard? And who actually did the research to find the space? Tom Neal: That space? I think of Deborah and I… Dennis Neill: On Brookside, did you look at several different locations? Tom Neal: I think so at one point. Now, Tim Gillian would be a good person to talk to about that, because I know he was involved in some of the researching, because I remember- and Nancy was involved as well, because at one point, we went and looked at the freaking Ambassador Hotel as a gay pride center. It was a ruin at the time before he had been renovated into this. obviously, top-flight hotel. It had been empty for at least 10 years, maybe 20 years. We, I remember looking at that. We looked at what is now the Circle Cinema. This is obscure, lost, almost lost, facts, isn't it? Dennis Neill: Yeah, we actually looked at it again in 2022. I mean 2002. Tom Neal: Yeah, Circle Cinema, part of the back roof or something was coming down on it. Somehow, and I don't know if Nancy got like Nancy was pushing, she was, she was a suburbanist at heart, so she was always pushing…Oh, we can find this shopping center out here, and I'm like we need to be more urban. Gay people use that term broadly and generically. 41st and Hudson is not an ideal location, though they made it work there, you know so. So, yeah, so that we, yeah, we did that and it was there for a while. And then there was Steve H, I don't remember. Took over Horn, yeah, came after me, and then Greg and Kerry. Then at that point I'd step back. Dennis Neill: And was it your store that was in the center? Because there's that store… Tom Neal: At a certain point I think I just gave or sold. I don't think I mostly gave the leftover merchandise I did to the center to use to sell for their benefit. Tom Neal: I don't think, because once I once- you know Steve and John, God bless himhad some dude out of Oklahoma City who thought he could- he also had a newspaper, very short-lived, and thought he could have a newspaper and have a store and still live in Oklahoma City, and so they basically said: eh, we're doubling your rent and I'm like this is not a viable project at double rent, it's barely viable at the current rent. Thanks, guys, no hard feelings. That's when I kind of shut it down, I think at one point I tried to do some sales out of one of the MCC churches, but it wasn't really…Tulsa's a challenge because there is no really gay community, physical, geographical gay community. Dennis Neill: During your period as president on the board we still have the testing clinic. I interviewed Jeremy Simmons a couple of months ago and he recalls that we did create the name Hope while it was at TOHR and all he can remember is it was kind of like a committee decision to come up with Hope. He couldn't really remember the individual that came up with that name, any recollection. 20 �Tom Neal: I don't know that. I was not part of those conversations. My recollection is they had decided and there were problems with some of the state funding- the state was being kind of homophobic is my recollection, but I don't put money on that oneand they- Jeremy in particular and others- really felt like they needed to separate from TOHR in order to continue to get the funding that they were getting from the state. And some of us were really opposed to that, just probably more because we were being cantankerous and like no, no change is scary, you know. They came in and did a really good reading of the bylaws and came in and did an emergency ambush meeting and basically just overrode the vote and separated themselves out, which probably in hindsight I guess that was the right thing to have done. Dennis Neill: Were you president at that point in time? Tom Neal: I think I might have been. Dennis Neill: And so, maybe is that when you left maybe Dee Beasley became president, or who was your vice president. Do you recall? Tom Neal: Um, no, I do not recall, but Steve Horn succeeded me. Directly after me was Steve Horn, and then, directly after him, he got a job in Dallas or someplace out of town, and then it was Greg. The only person I can think… Dennis Neill: I think maybe Dee after… Tom Neal: I don’t remember, I don’t… Dennis Neill: Dee was only president for about three months Tom Neal: I don't know when that was. The only person I would mention because he was a stalwart. John Stanley was on my board. He wasn't vice president; he was just a great trooper who would do whatever he could to help and he passed. Dennis Neill: Fortunately, we do have an interview with him. Morgan [Allen], I think around 2002. So we have his transcript on our website. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: In 2002?? Dennis Neill: No, I’m sorry, in 22. Yeah, yeah, 2022. Tom Neal: I knew what you meant. No, well, and Morgan sang a really plaintive appellation, a cappella song, at his memorial service here. Yeah, it's just achingly beautiful, and I know her from Trinity Choir. She's in the choir, I'm not, and I asked her if she would do it and it was really kind. Dennis Neill: So, Tom, coming back to the period in the 1990s when you were acting with the TOHR, do you remember when you first got involved with the organization and what kind of caused you to be so interested in taking action and a leadership role in the organization? 21 �Tom Neal: I think I more fell into it than anything else. There was maybe a vacuum. You know somebody needed to do it and nobody else seemed to be stepping up again, coming back and doing Pride literally within a week, a couple of weeks, of having returned to the city, like end of May and coming in June, and pride was in June still then. And then the next year, and you know just the realization this could be done better. And so next year, I kind of did that, I think, a couple years, and then, like I say, Debra Starnes and I got along pretty well and she ran for president and then I think she had something that she had to step down and I was vice president and so became president. I don't remember if I got reelected in my own right or not, if I just finished out her term, I just don't remember at this point. But proud of the fact that though we did not own it, but for the first time in Tulsa's history there was a physical LGBT plus center for the community Dennis Neill: Speaking of that, Greg recalls, Greg Gatewood recalls when you first put the signage up and Greg mentioned that, he said: if we put that sign up, I know there's going to be a car wreck on Brookside by people eyeing that sign and he said that day we put it up, sure enough there was a fender bender right in front of the building because somebody was looking at the sign and not paying attention. So do you recall some of those early days of the center, some of the vandalism? Tom Neal: I know we had a little bit of vandalism. I don't remember a lot of details, I think maybe somebody broke the front door one time, Dennis Neill: The glass twice. Tom Neal: Was it twice? Maybe I'm a little bit of a Pollyanna. I try to see the positive. So I maybe, I just don't remember. I mainly remember the flag being stolen because I personally was up there on the roof putting it back up and buying another one and so forth. But just in general, the only other thing I can really remember distinctly is when there was an event for Chaz Bono. You know Cher's son these days. At the time I think she still identified as a woman and I remember taking pictures of Chaz and Nancy McDonald talking in that hallway, in that great hall or small great hall that we created. Dennis Neill: I think she was here, wasn't she for a fundraiser? I believe we had it at the downtown Doubletree. I can't remember if it was for TOHR or if it was for PFLAG. Tom Neal: Could have been either, could have been either. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dennis Neill: And were you involved with PFLAG through these years? Tom Neal: Certainly, when I was doing the newspaper, I was very supportive of PFLAG and I think I would assume that I probably donated advertising to them, certainly covered events that they had them. I seem to recall that they were often meeting at Fellowship Congregational there on Harvard and somewhere along the way became friends with the late Reverend Russell Bennett, great, great hero of mine, again kind of taking the stand back in the day when very few people were. I mean in those days, if you remember, again, before we started interviewing, we were talking about NCCJ [National Conference for Christians and Jews] and sometimes not always having support from parts of the community from whom you might have expected to get it, and I remember 22 �that Russell was out there very, very supportive, even at times when, for example, All Souls was not. They were just kind of ducking the issue, which is ironic because they were very welcoming of LGBT people as individuals, but they were not putting any of their credibility as a congregation on the line at the time, or at least that was my perception of things. Obviously not where they are today. You know so, but at that time, you know also, you know my parish Trinity was supportive of individuals, but not as out there. That whole denomination has made progress. Likewise, you know the Methodists and the Presbyterians. Dennis Neill: And was this about the time the Say No to Hate Coalition formed, or was that after your time? Do you think? Tom Neal: I think after. Again, I'm not the best person with dates. Dennis Neill: Yeah, I think it might have been after, because I know at one time I was fairly involved with it. But then Laura was very, very involved. I think she chaired it for a while. That was probably when she was president in 2004 - 2007, time frame. So talk a little bit about some of your highs and lows while you were so involved with TOHR in those early 90s. Tom Neal: I think I kind of feel like I've covered those. I mean, really. Dennis Neill: Were you having monthly meetings then? Y Tom Neal: Yeah, I think so. I think so. Dennis Neill: At that center? Tom Neal: I think so, I think so at the center, yeah. Not enormously attended, but I haven't seen enormous attendance of anything in the community since maybe the really early days at Aaronson, when it was literally almost the only game in town. So, other than I guess the bars that were all over the place. Certainly with the Internet, with people meeting each other electronically these days, I mean, there's what, maybe three bars left now, and I don't go to bars anyway. It was already a somewhat scattered community compared to maybe Dallas or Houston, where you had, a physical center to the places. And I think with the changes in media, it's even more scattered. Dennis Neill: So are you comfortable being called an activist? Tom Neal: Yeah, sure. I think it's a worthy title. I don't think these days I would make that claim anymore. I've stepped back, I’ve really focused on my, my work, my design practice. I don't remember if I mentioned to you, but I'm taking a class at TU, which I love being on campus. It's, they call it lifelong learning. It's not for credit. I call it classes for old people. It's really good because since I work out of my home and my work companions are a dog and three cats, it's nice to interact with like… Dennis Neill: What are you taking at TU? 23 �Tom Neal: I am taking Spanish. I'm just finishing my fourth semester there, motivated, prompted by a trip to Spain with one of my nephews. And I had been using Duolingo to try to learn some Spanish. And I came back from that trip feeling like I needed more formal instruction. And originally thought I'd try to take something at TCC. I had taught adjunct there for nine semesters, but they didn't have anything that wasn't online. And I wanted an in-person class. And then I live literally seven minutes by bicycle from TU. I'm like, I live across from a major university. Let me see what they have to offer. And I wound up, and it was very interesting as this long-haired senior citizen walking into a classroom full of mostly freshmen, 18- and 19-year-olds, whose eyes are getting big. It's like, who is this old guy in the class? And I'm looking like, God, they look like they're 14. It's been a really good experience. And my Spanish is progressing. Dennis Neill: Cool. So at TCC, what were you teaching? Tom Neal: I taught both art appreciation and humanities one. Dennis Neill: Did you feel welcome as an adjunct professor at TCC? Tom Neal: Yes, certainly. No issues because I was gay. Well, adjuncts are overworked and underappreciated, generally speaking. Every, probably every place in the nation, but it was a good experience. I stumbled into it. It was actually a random conversation I was having with another person, closer to my age, in the men's locker room, because I used to work for 10 years, maybe, well, maybe it's 20 years. Many years I worked out at the TCC Fitness Center because it was so close to Home Depot where I was working. And I had a conversation with a guy named Ralph saying, my undergrads in art history. I'd love to teach someday. And he said, hmm, my wife's in charge of making those assignments. I said, oh, well, tell her I would be interested. And a couple months later, I get a call at 4.45 PM on a Friday saying, we really, somebody's dropped out. And could you teach this class starting on Tuesday at 10 a.m.? Indeed, I can, but I had never seen the textbook. I hadn't seen a syllabus. I was cramming on Monday to start teaching on Tuesday, but I had a good time. The pay is crap, but I very much, and I wound up teaching initially, mostly an art appreciation class for a program they called Accelerate, where TCC took its concurrent enrollment classes out to public high schools. Students in Tulsa can take a class at TCC. Concurrent enrollment sometimes means they take it on campus. But in this case, particularly because not every student is mobile, we wound up…I wound up teaching at Tulsa Central, Hale, East Central, and then Webster and Edison. Those last two more than any other, repeated times. And it was great. I loved, I had the best and the brightest. For example, East Central is a pretty rough school. It looks like a prison, and it had high security when you walk in. But the kids I was working with were brilliant. And it was such a good experience. And then, again, Humanities I on campus was not bad. I liked that as well. That was at Metro Campus. It hasn't happened lately, but for a few years I would be randomly going around Tulsa, and somebody would say, hey, did you teach Humanities at TCC? I said, yeah. And mostly people said, I took your class. I loved your class. It made you feel really good. 24 �Dennis Neill: So, as an activist, what do you consider kind of your crown achievement? Would you say whether it's through the newspaper or your active involvement in organizations? What really gives you comfort about the view you took about being an activist in the community? Tom Neal: I think it's not any single thing, Dennis. I think it is a general pushing, expanding the envelope, pushing things forward, making it a little better than it was before. The process at OU that I worked on towards getting a nondiscrimination policy, we didn't get it, but somebody did after us. But I think the work that we did helped move us in that direction. Clearly, I think that the fact that we're sitting in this wonderful building today has its origins in the thinking that people like Nancy and Greg and... Dennis Neill: Okay. And you were talking a little bit about your activism and you feeling like it's not just one event, but you want to expand it a little bit more? Tom Neal: So, I think, I don't know whether we chopped this off or not, but I was saying that, here we are in this beautiful, wonderful building. And I think, again, back to the notion that maybe it's not any single thing that I accomplished, but being part of the process of moving us forward as a community, that, the origins of this building, to some degree, are in the building that Deborah and I signed the lease for over on Brookside. In the thinking, Nancy McDonald was very involved, Greg Gatewood…each of us working to the recognition that we need a physical place to anchor the community, particularly in a community that is kind of scattered, to all parts of the city. And I think I helped advance that. I think, maybe like before we started the interview, we were talking about our interaction with the Jewish community and maybe, helping people there to be more aware of, sometimes the intersection between LGBT issues and Jewish issues, particularly in terms of our shared history around, living through the Nazi regime. not identical experiences, obviously, but some overlap there. Part of that process…I know you can relate to this, one step forward and two steps back, or maybe it's two steps forward and one step back. When you and I first met, there were really hopes that the city of Tulsa was then, in 1980-something, going to add a non-discrimination policy. And I think you guys are really close. There was a little bit of a backlash, you know? Dennis Neill: But do you feel like there's been some backsliding over these recent years? And what would you attribute that to? And what would you tell the current generations? How can we move forward? But I'm assuming you might feel like we're backsliding in progress. What are your thoughts? Tom Neal: Well, yeah, I don't think we can take anything for granted. And I think again, as a student of history, if you look at Weimar, Germany, it was a good place for queer people in the 1920s, and then only to be followed by... I think, again, part of that shared experience or similar experience of the Jewish communities around the world and of LGBT communities is this kind of, we're always looking over our shoulders because, particularly with the current administration, could things turn south, could things go bad really quickly. I think I live with that as a little bit of a fear. I just read that the Texas 25 �Tech University system has now basically banned- it's destroyed- the women's studies, the LGBT studies, sexuality studies. You can't even write or talk about these issues. I have family who are alums, and so I put on my Facebook like, hmm, reposted, shared the story but then said: maybe we should call this fascist Tech, not Texas Tech, though Texas and fascism may be pretty good overlap these days. So, yes, are we backsliding? I think our fears are worse than the actuality. But could we backslide? I think that's real. What would I say to young people? Don't blow off your seniors completely. Some of us have some experience. You don't have to freaking, reinvent everything every time or assume that everybody who's you know older than you is an idiot and doesn't know anything, because sometimes that's how it feels. I was a little perturbed because recently this organization had a weekend seminar for rural organizing, I think, and I looked over it and it was kind of almost pro forma, by the book inclusive. We had one of these and one of these and one of these I mean in terms of racial and ethnic diversity and so forth, except for there was not a single old person in the mix. They were all Morgan's age and younger and I'm kind of like some of us might have something to contribute. Some of us have done some of this before, and I think you know again, maybe kind of one of my pet peeves- and we see it a fair amount in the, in the gay part of the LGBT community, is ageism. You know just, and- and I've been a little outspoken, calling people I say, that's kind of, that's kind of …So I think that would be kind of my, maybe the message, the answer to the question is: you know that inclusiveness is not just about, race and ethnicity or gender. You know that that many people have something to contribute. I don't know, probably if I keep talking, I'm going to say the same thing over in three different ways. Dennis Neill: Anything we haven't covered over your life to date and your reflections on what's been accomplished and what needs to be accomplished or any other comments you want to make. Tom Neal: Oh well, thank you for doing this, it's fun. It's kind of makes me remember some things that I hadn't really thought about for a while. You know I'm usually focused on work deadlines and Spanish exams and walking my dog. I'm planning my next trip because I really enjoy traveling. Dennis Neill: Where's that? Tom Neal: Next trips? This summer's trips, I think I'm going to go to Little Rock just for a long weekend, just because I've never really spent any time there. And there's the Clinton Library. Their art museum has been recently revamped, and I like to visit Episcopal Parishes when I travel, and this is going to sound so church nerdy, but they have Christ Church and the Cathedral, two different congregations within blocks of each other, and I can actually go to one service at 8 or 8:30, and the other one at 10:30, which is a lot of church. Dennis Neill: Both Episcopalian? 26 �Tom Neal: One's the Cathedral, one's just, I guess, the local church, but they're both historic because Little Rock, Arkansas is older than we are as a state. I'll probably go see my brother and go to the beach with my nephew that I traveled with in North Carolina. I'm kind of avoiding overseas travel because of you know all the unrest right now. But my nephew, with whom I travel a fair amount, he said, I want to get one last trip in August before, hopefully, I take a class at TU in the fall. And he said: well, what about Mexico City? I'm like I've been really wanting to go to Mexico City because I've never been, fits in with studying Spanish, amazing art and museums and history, and I like to mountain bike, and I even think there's mountain biking close to the city. So hopefully that'll be, that'll be that, and then next winter go skiing because that's my other thing. Dennis Neill: Tom, I really appreciate your time, your dedication to the community and everything that you've done for this organization and for the great history you've left us with the Tulsa Family News. Thank you very much. Tom Neal: Thank you, Dennis. 27 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Tom Neal Interview Subject The topic of the resource Tom Neal Oral History Project Interview from April 30, 2026 Description An account of the resource In this in-depth interview, Tom Neal shares his life journey, from growing up in Oklahoma to becoming a community activist and publisher. He discusses his experiences with LGBTQ+ advocacy, the evolution of Tulsa's community spaces, and his reflections on social progress and challenges. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tom Neal, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 30, 2026 activism AIDS/HIV Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill Dennis R. Neill Equality Center Equality Center Gay Rights HIV/AIDs interview journalism Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library OkEq Equality Center OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Rainbow Library Tom Neal transcript Tulsa Family News video