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https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/31bfda5165b0746280882931c907e116.pdf
c62a0d8cd65108708fdb1542b110edce
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OKEQ-FY2025 Budget-Revision Draft
REVENUE
Grant Revenue
Contributions
I Am Equality
Clinic Services
Store/Vending Sales (net)
Bar/Concession Sales (net)
Art Gallery (net)
Event/Ticket Sales
Lynn Riggs/KitchenRental
Equality Business Alliance
OKEQ Membership
In-Kind Donations
Gala (net proceeds)
Pride Festival & Bingo
Investment Income
TOTAL REVENUE
FY2025
200,000
125,000
125,000
75,000
10,000
15,000
1,000
30,000
35,000
10,000
5,000
225,000
248,924
2,000
1,106,924
Revision
Notes
275,000 Aids Coalition, DN, Ascension
110,000 Already at $85k
Remove
85,000
7,500
15,000
1,000
5,000 Delay in hiring
20,000 Delay in hiring
10,000
1,000 Not ready to relaunch
5,000 Catering from TW-AB
300,000
134,547
3,000
972,047
EXPENDITURES
Salaries & Wages
Payroll Taxes and Benefits
Workers Com
Contract Services
IT Services
Accounting Services and Audit
HR Consultant
Executive Consultant
Archivist/History Coordinator
Marketing Services
Data Services
Legal Services
Other Contract Services
Storage
Vehicle Expenses
Insurance-Liability & Cyber
Insurance-D&O
Insurance-Property
Insurance-Clinic
Insurance-Van
Utilities/Phone
Office expenses
Office Supplies & Services
Software/TechPlatforms/Digital Apps
Shipping & Postage
Copy Lease & Printing
Cleaning & supplies
Repairs & Maintenance
Business Licenses & Permits
Memberships and Subscriptions
Non-Cap Equipment
Meals & Entertainment
Marketing and Advertising
Security (excluding Pride)
Clinic Supplies & Lab
Other Program Expenses
Library Materials
Event Expenses (excl Pride and Gala)
Community Outreach
Travel & Training
Pride Festival Expenses
Transaction Fees
Bank Fees & Charges
TOTAL EXPENDITURES
Use of Reserves
Net Revenue over Expenditures
FY2025
409,333
71,078
3,800
101,950
4,560
3,000
8,000
2,200
12,000
1,500
3,000
34,380
27,000
12,000
20,000
2,000
1,500
7,500
5,000
1,200
20,000
15,000
7,500
8,500
15,000
24,000
10,000
233,946
10,000
500
1,075,447
31,477
Revision
Notes
339,165 Adjust. based on current positions and 3 mos. ED
63,000
7,800 Increased due to 2023 wc audit and staff.
Replaced with detailed line items
25,200
38,000
9,000
56,250
8,000 Grant funded
9,500
21,000 Data Capacity Group
5,000
25,000 Restorative Justice and Charity Engine
4,560
2,500
8,000
2,200
14,000
1,500
3,000
30,000
Replaced with detailed line items
4,000
27,500 Data Capacity Grant, Charity Engine
1,000
4,300
12,000 $595/month services, plus Cintas
12,000
2,000
1,500
7,500
5,000 Staff, donor relations, board
1,200
10,000
15,000
20,000 Gender Marker Grant, Food Insecurity Grant
8,500 Grant funded support for remote libraries
5,000
16,000 Support to other organizations
5,000 Conferences, staff development
186,372
5,000
500
1,022,047
50,000
0
�Beginning Year Cash
Net Income/Loss
Reserve Use
Estimated Year End Cash
FY2025
580,360
31,477
611,837
Revision
580,360
(50,000)
50,000
530,360
�
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<strong>OKEQ-FY2025 Budget-Revision Draft<br /><br />REVENUE FY2025 Revision Notes</strong><br />Grant Revenue 200,000 275,000 Aids Coalition, DN, Ascension<br />Contributions 125,000 110,000 Already at $85k<br />I Am Equality 125,000 - Remove<br />Clinic Services 75,000 85,000<br />Store/Vending Sales (net) 10,000 7,500<br />Bar/Concession Sales (net) 15,000 15,000<br />Art Gallery (net) 1,000 1,000<br />Event/Ticket Sales 30,000 5,000 Delay in hiring<br />Lynn Riggs/KitchenRental 35,000 20,000 Delay in hiring<br />Equality Business Alliance 10,000 10,000<br />OKEQ Membership 5,000 1,000 Not ready to relaunch<br />In-Kind Donations - 5,000 Catering from TW-AB<br />Gala (net proceeds) 225,000 300,000<br />Pride Festival & Bingo 248,924 134,547<br />Investment Income 2,000 3,000<br /><strong>TOTAL REVENUE 1,106,924 972,047</strong><br /><br /><strong>EXPENDITURES FY2025 Revision Notes</strong><br />Salaries & Wages 409,333 339,165 Adjust. based on current positions and 3 mos. ED<br />Payroll Taxes and Benefits 71,078 63,000<br />Workers Com 3,800 7,800 Increased due to 2023 wc audit and staff.<br />Contract Services 101,950 - Replaced with detailed line items<br />IT Services - 25,200<br />Accounting Services and Audit - 38,000<br />HR Consultant - 9,000<br />Executive Consultant - 56,250<br />Archivist/History Coordinator - 8,000 Grant funded<br />Marketing Services - 9,500<br />Data Services - 21,000 Data Capacity Group<br />Legal Services - 5,000<br />Other Contract Services - 25,000 Restorative Justice and Charity Engine<br />Storage 4,560 4,560<br />Vehicle Expenses 3,000 2,500<br />Insurance-Liability & Cyber 8,000 8,000<br />Insurance-D&O 2,200 2,200<br />Insurance-Property 12,000 14,000<br />Insurance-Clinic 1,500 1,500<br />Insurance-Van 3,000 3,000<br />Utilities/Phone 34,380 30,000<br />Office expenses 27,000 - Replaced with detailed line items<br />Office Supplies & Services - 4,000<br />Software/TechPlatforms/Digital Apps - 27,500 Data Capacity Grant, Charity Engine<br />Shipping & Postage - 1,000<br />Copy Lease & Printing - 4,300<br />Cleaning & supplies 12,000 12,000 $595/month services, plus Cintas<br />Repairs & Maintenance 20,000 12,000<br />Business Licenses & Permits 2,000 2,000<br />Memberships and Subscriptions 1,500 1,500<br />Non-Cap Equipment 7,500 7,500<br />Meals & Entertainment 5,000 5,000 Staff, donor relations, board<br />Marketing and Advertising 1,200 1,200<br />Security (excluding Pride) 20,000 10,000<br />Clinic Supplies & Lab 15,000 15,000<br />Other Program Expenses 7,500 20,000 Gender Marker Grant, Food Insecurity Grant<br />Library Materials 8,500 8,500 Grant funded support for remote libraries<br />Event Expenses (excl Pride and Gala) 15,000 5,000<br />Community Outreach 24,000 16,000 Support to other organizations<br />Travel & Training 10,000 5,000 Conferences, staff development<br />Pride Festival Expenses 233,946 186,372<br />Transaction Fees 10,000 5,000<br />Bank Fees & Charges 500 500<br /><strong>TOTAL EXPENDITURES 1,075,447 1,022,047</strong><br /><strong>Use of Reserves - 50,000</strong><br /><strong>Net Revenue over Expenditures 31,477 0</strong><br /><br /><strong>FY2025 Revision</strong><br /><strong>Beginning Year Cash 580,360 580,360</strong><br />Net Income/Loss 31,477 (50,000)<br />Reserve Use<br />- 50,000<br /><strong>Estimated Year End Cash 611,837 530,360</strong>
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[2025] OKEQ FY2025 Budget Revision Draft
Subject
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Oklahomans for Equality Fiscal Year 2025 Budget Revision Draft
Description
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2 pages of a draft revision of the Oklahomans for Equality (OKEQ) budget for the fiscal year of 2025.
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https://okeq.org/bylaws/
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2025
2025
budget
budgeting
Financial
OkEq
OKEQ financials
Oklahomans for Equality
Oklahomans for Equality (OKEQ)
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https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/de069673b469757b8899914e7888df0e.pdf
da2f2de28253cf29ef28c6d518c513d7
PDF Text
Text
OKEQ Strategic Plan Final Draft
2025 – 2030
For 45 years, Oklahomans for Equality (OkEq) and the 2SLGBTQIA+
community have faced many obstacles in securing equal rights and a
sense of safety and well-being. Over the years, important progress
has been made. But recent internal and external issues, including a growing hostile
political environment on many levels, are creating unprecedented challenges for
2SLGBTQIA+ individuals and those organizations providing services and support. In
response, OKEQ must adapt to changing circumstances as it continues to support
individuals, defend hard-fought rights, and stand against discriminatory policies. We
believe the following goals, strategies, and actions will help us create a more resilient and
capable organization to meet the moment as we work with others to show strength and a
unified voice.
Our Mission
Oklahomans for Equality (OkEq) seeks equal rights for 2SLGBTQIA+ individuals and
families through intersectional advocacy, education, programs, alliances, and the
operation of the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center.
Our Goals
GOAL ONE: Complete the reconciliation and restorative justice process started by the
Community Relations Committee and Transition Team.
GOAL TWO: Implement internal and external changes to increase organizational
effectiveness and improve governmental operations.
GOAL THREE: Employ highly qualified staff who are mission aligned and have lived
experience in proximity to the community being served.
GOAL FOUR: Expand programs and partnerships to improve services and outreach.
GOAL FIVE: Improve the financial, fundraising, and operational structures to stabilize
operations and provide a foundation to respond to future needs and challenges.
GOAL SIX: Refresh and reimagine our Center to better serve today’s community.
�OKEQ Detailed Strategies
Action items should be considered a starting place; additional actions may be warranted by the
staff, volunteers or committees tasked with the goals and strategies.
GOAL ONE
Complete the reconciliation and restorative justice process started by the Community
Relations Committee and Transition Team.
Strategy One: Take actions which demonstrate our durable commitment to the
reconciliation work.
Action Items:
•
•
•
•
Engage Restorative Justice Institute of Oklahoma (RJIOK) for a second phase of
culture work with the board, staff and larger community.
With RJIOK help, host a mission / vision / values retreat with the board and
community.
Budget for an annual RJIOK board workshop as well as opportunities to share the
training with the larger community.
Examine and update our policies and practices, especially related to governance,
membership, financial management, fundraising, and partnerships.
Strategy Two: Ensure transparency and communicate frequently.
Action Items:
•
•
•
•
•
Continue quarterly town halls and monthly president’s letter.
Educate community members on our new code of conduct and the feedback
mechanisms for handling incidents and grievances.
Reaffirm recent statements regarding organizational challenges and harms; explain
the processes completed or in development to address them.
Communicate these updates with the community as they are implemented within
the framework of a strategic communications plan.
Utilize targeted communication strategies and innovative methods to engage
members and stakeholders in the work.
�GOAL TWO
Implement internal and external changes to increase organizational effectiveness and
improve governance operations.
Strategy One: Create governance structures that support community involvement at every
level.
Action Items:
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Finalize roles and responsibilities of trustees, board, advisors, including a structure
for the financial expectations that ensures buy-in but also creates accessibility.
Launch a revised membership strategy that clarifies benefits and responsibilities of
membership and creates mechanisms to pay membership dues either through
dollars or volunteer service.
Grow our talent pipelines by engaging more individuals of varying backgrounds and
skillsets in committee service.
Review and update policies and processes for selecting and onboarding new board
members.
Ensure annual training for board members in the areas of nonprofit basics, board
responsibilities, OkEq history, social media organization representation, and DEI
awareness and action.
Build new ways for business and funding partners to demonstrate allyship.
Actively engage with CenterLink and other national resources so we can learn from
best practices nation-wide.
Strategy Two: Review community perceptions of OkEq and make appropriate changes to
marketing and branding to address concerns and build on positives.
Action Items:
•
•
•
•
•
Engage professional assistance to review branding and build layered
communication strategies (i.e. website, e-news, apps, social media, print materials,
etc.)
Recognize our history and accomplishments as we make appropriate adjustments
to respond to current and future challenges and opportunities.
Promote Pride as something that lives year-round and is a visible aspect of our
engagement in community.
Use the power of storytelling to uplift the voices and diverse perspectives of the
community as we expand our outreach and services.
Ensure our images are representative of the diverse community we serve.
�Strategy Three: Use data to tell our story of impact, report our outcomes, and make
decisions regarding the implementation of our goals and strategies.
Action Items:
•
•
•
•
Develop an annual stakeholder survey to track progress on needs, goals, and
engagement. Use this data to determine program priorities.
Develop an annual staff survey to track progress on needs, goals, and engagement.
Use this data to make staff related recommendations and in evaluation of the
Executive Director performance.
Utilize technology tools to track participation in programs and services. Develop
surveys to determine client satisfaction as well as relevant impact.
Engage in annual planning and review processes.
o Executive Director creates annual operational plans to establish specific
goals and metrics involved in meeting the goals of the plan.
o Executive Committee reviews the plan quarterly and updates board on
strategic plan implementation status.
o The board annually reviews the plan at a summer planning retreat and
adopts changes to the plan as needed at the Annual meeting.
GOAL THREE
Employ highly qualified staff who are mission aligned and have lived experience in
proximity to the community being served.
Strategy One: Ensure capable executive leadership.
Action Items:
•
•
Launch an Executive Director search committee to build out position description,
identify the qualities and qualifications needed, and lead an effective recruitment
and interview process.
Hire and onboard an Executive Director with a track record of inclusive leadership
and demonstrable skills to address the needs of the organization and those we
serve.
Strategy Two: Invest in a staff structure that provides the capacity to implement strategic
initiatives and prioritizes ongoing training and development.
Action Items:
•
Review organization needs and create a long-term staffing plan to address
fundamental responsibilities including advocacy, programs, outreach, marketing,
fundraising and building partnerships.
�•
•
•
•
•
Ensure up to date job descriptions and clear organization chart with every iteration
of staff development.
Develop staff recruitment and selection processes that balance community
experience, diversity, mission alignment and technical skillsets.
Examine compensation structures and benefits to assure workplace retention.
Invest in training and accountability to support continued development for team
members.
Hire and train paid front desk workers as needed to augment volunteer
contributions. Ensure all front desk workers have the training and updates needed
to ensure consistent guest experiences, accurate referrals, and exceptional
customer service.
GOAL FOUR
Expand programs and partnerships to improve services and outreach.
Strategy One: Engage with community through collaboration and partnerships.
Action Items:
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Complete community asset mapping to identify potential partners as well as
programmatic gaps that may still exist that could be filled by OkEq.
Create structures through which it is absolutely clear and transparent what OkEq’s
relationship is with those operating in our space or promoted on our social media
(i.e. which are our programs, which are vetted services that are operating under
formal agreements, which are given support but operate independently etc.)
Maintain space for hosting third party providers delivering case management,
counseling and other important social services on a consistent and widely
promoted schedule.
Clarify and strengthen our relationships with existing partners and develop new
connections to better serve the community. Update our partnership agreements.
Partner with affirming social safety net organizations to meet the needs of those
most vulnerable in our community through services such as housing and rent
assistance, food security, trans-friendly clothing and other important needs.
Evaluate our clinic operations to determine which services are best done in-house
and which can be provided through partnerships. Invite other clinic providers
offering different types of affirming services to use our space during hours our inhouse provider is not in residence.
Partner with credible social justice organizations to lend our name and resources to
ongoing efforts to defend and expand civic liberties. Expand our engagement with
others in the state around advocacy and public affairs.
�Strategy Two: Be a hub for connecting people to the affirming resources and training they
seek.
Action Items:
•
•
•
•
•
•
Expand training and resources for our volunteers to ensure consistent and informed
information and referrals.
Actively engage at tabling events and Pride celebrations across the state to both
promote our own resources and stay aware of the resources being offered by others.
Update our resource guides for affirming faith communities, supportive health
resources, legal resources, equality business members, and other allied businesses
and social services. Publish the resource guide on our website.
Actively participate with interfaith and community networks that are seeking to
improve equity and quality of life for the people of Tulsa, making sure the needs of
2SLGBTQIA+ individuals are represented at the table.
Expand outreach with local attorneys to provide various legal resources and
periodic legal clinics to provide information and guidance to members on relevant
topics.
Partner with educational organizations to provide GED classes, language classes,
and a variety of professional learning opportunities in our space, targeted to our
members’ identified needs.
Strategy Three: Offer opportunities to our community members to build leadership, give
service, and advocate for positive change.
Action Items:
•
•
•
•
•
•
Train a cadre of board and staff representatives to speak to 2SLGBTQIA+ issues with
the media and at community events.
Partner with city government, emergency responders, and large institutions to
ensure they are considering the needs of Oklahoma’s 2SLGBTQIA+ population when
making policy.
Expand the Equality Business Alliance Membership Program.
Offer periodic service-day activities at OkEq and with other service agencies for
members.
Work with Leadership Tulsa to relaunch the Lead Together Program.
Provide education, connection, and encouragement to our members and allies,
especially those that have the social or financial capital to do so safely, to be
advocates within institutions to foster safer spaces overall and push back on efforts
to dismantle protections such as GSA’s, BRG’s, DEI offices, and other initiatives that
have provided safe harbor.
�Strategy Four: Always be a safe space where people find community, belonging, and
support.
Action Items:
•
•
•
•
•
•
Review current safety protocols and security needs and make adjustment as
needed to address concerns and potential threats.
Continue and expand our successful line-up of support groups meeting at the
center.
Start a program to fill the gap in young adult programming (18-23) that was identified
during community listening sessions.
Invest in quarterly community feasts and holiday gatherings to make space for
friendship and comradery.
Host, cohost and/or amplify awareness of important community milestones and
markers such as Trans Day of Remembrance, World Aids Day and more as
appropriate.
Honor those we have lost in our community by hosting an annual memorial service.
Strategy Five: Embrace the power of the arts, affirming spiritual traditions, and wellness
practices to build community across lines of difference, engage hearts, tell stories, and
make powerful social change.
Action Items:
•
•
•
•
•
Build on the potential of the art gallery with compelling shows and monthly or bimonthly art openings. At least once a year provide a show that highlights some
aspect of our shared history.
Support the efforts of the staff and the LRT Advisory Council to maximize the
utilization of the black box theater for the benefit of OkEq and the community at
large.
Partner with others to offer author talks, lecture series, affirming religious or
spiritual programs, holistic wellness workshops and retreats, film festivals, and
other types of intergenerational, cultural, and educational programming.
Maintain and expand access to the rich, diverse, and affirming collection provided
by the Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library.
Continue the work of the History Project to preserve OkEq documents, artifacts, and
community donated items which tell the story of OkEq and of the local 2SLGBTQIA+
community.
�GOAL FIVE
Improve the financial, fundraising, and operational structures to stabilize operations
and provide a foundation to respond to future needs and challenges.
Strategy One: Complete the substantial investments in technology that have been started
by the IT Special Committee
Action Items:
•
•
•
•
•
•
Finalize the customer relationship management software conversion process.
Implement Asana project management software organization wide.
Launch the “Let’s all do Good” app.
As funding permits, upgrade technology in the meeting rooms to accommodate
today’s virtual meeting landscape.
Develop a secure and comprehensive document storing and sharing protocol so
resources are available despite staff and volunteer transitions.
Provide ongoing training to staff and committee chairs on best practices,
organizational standard operating procedures, and use of available technology
tools.
Strategy Two: Create and implement a comprehensive financial plan that diversifies
revenue streams, ensures financial stability, expands endowments and operating reserve,
and supports sound fiscal decision making.
Action Items:
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
Continue quarterly reforecasting and mid-year rebudgeting protocols.
Annually implement a successful end-of-year giving campaign that engages
individuals and small businesses in the mission.
Continuously innovate and improve on the annual gala strategy in ways that
maximize proceeds and the participant experience. Prioritize ways that people can
be included at a variety of giving levels.
Expand our major gifts and foundation support by improved communication and
direct contact with current and lapsed donors while cultivating and developing new
funders and growing our base of support.
Identify mission-related special-project giving opportunities in addition to seeking
general operating support.
Approve a facility rental strategy that balances earned income with in-kind hosting
2SLGBTQIA+ focused events. Market special rental packages that increase facility
rental income.
Improve earned revenue opportunities through a calendar of engaging and
entertaining fee-based events.
Create effective campaigns that solicit, cultivate and track paid memberships.
�•
•
With board and trustee leadership, implement a planned giving program and other
funding initiatives designed to add to the corpus of the existing endowments with
the Tulsa Community Foundation. Review and update as appropriate the
investment and distribution terms of the endowments.
Publish a digital annual report that transparently shares sources and uses of funding
while highlighting accomplishments and impact.
Strategy Three: Expand the value and positive impact that Pride programming provides to
the 2SLGBTQIA+ community while managing financial and liability issues.
Action Items:
•
•
•
•
Explore options and determine if OkEq remains the best organization to host and
coordinate the Pride festival and programming for the future.
Continue the community listening process related to priorities and most important
aspects of the annual Pride Festival to the queer community members.
To address the growing expense and significant staff and volunteer commitment,
adjust the primary festival events to a one or two-day event.
With the Pride committee, discuss the opportunities to include more educational
and cultural programming with a Pride theme year-round.
GOAL SIX
Refresh and reimagine our Center to better serve today’s community.
Strategy One: Continue organizing and refreshment of the Center.
•
•
•
•
•
•
Engage staff, board and volunteers along with professional organizers to help with
organizing and decluttering activities.
Support the ongoing work of the archivist and volunteers in sorting and preserving
meaningful materials that should be kept for historical purposes.
With trustees, develop a budget and funding stream to provide for the maintenance
and replacements of physical assets and allow for ongoing improvements to
address changing needs.
With trustees, complete an examination of current space usage and implement
facility upgrades that improve the quality of the space, enhance user experience,
and maximize facility use.
Innovate new uses for old spaces that prioritize flexibility. With staff and
stakeholders evaluate needs for spaces such as staff offices, counseling rooms,
clothes closet/food pantry, meetings spaces. Consider co-working or coffee house
type spaces that members can use during open hours.
Refresh paint, floor coverings, furnishings, and lighting; add new plants, artwork and
office furniture as needed.
�Strategy Two: Plan and execute a capital campaign.
•
•
•
•
•
Engage with staff, architects, fundraising professionals, volunteers, trustees, and
contractors to plan a renovation of the Equality Center.
Create a budget for capital improvements and add to the endowment if possible.
Conduct a capital campaign starting with major gift solicitation in 2026 and a public
fundraising effort that launches with the 20th anniversary of the Center in 2027.
Implement renovation plans with effective construction management in
coordination with the needs of the Center.
Plan a grand reopening celebration for the Center.
�
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<strong>OKEQ Strategic Plan Final Draft</strong><br /><br /><strong>2025 – 2030</strong><br /><br />For 45 years, Oklahomans for Equality (OkEq) and the 2SLGBTQIA+ community have faced many obstacles in securing equal rights and a sense of safety and well-being. Over the years, important progress has been made. But recent internal and external issues, including a growing hostile political environment on many levels, are creating unprecedented challenges for 2SLGBTQIA+ individuals and those organizations providing services and support. In response, OKEQ must adapt to changing circumstances as it continues to support individuals, defend hard-fought rights, and stand against discriminatory policies. We believe the following goals, strategies, and actions will help us create a more resilient and capable organization to meet the moment as we work with others to show strength and a unified voice.<br /><br /><strong>Our Mission</strong><br />Oklahomans for Equality (OkEq) seeks equal rights for 2SLGBTQIA+ individuals and families through intersectional advocacy, education, programs, alliances, and the operation of the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center.<br /><br /><strong>Our Goals</strong><br />GOAL ONE: Complete the reconciliation and restorative justice process started by the Community Relations Committee and Transition Team.<br />GOAL TWO: Implement internal and external changes to increase organizational effectiveness and improve governmental operations.<br />GOAL THREE: Employ highly qualified staff who are mission aligned and have lived experience in proximity to the community being served.<br />GOAL FOUR: Expand programs and partnerships to improve services and outreach.<br />GOAL FIVE: Improve the financial, fundraising, and operational structures to stabilize operations and provide a foundation to respond to future needs and challenges.<br />GOAL SIX: Refresh and reimagine our Center to better serve today’s community.<br /><br /><strong>OKEQ Detailed Strategies</strong><br /><em>Action items should be considered a starting place; additional actions may be warranted by the staff, volunteers or committees tasked with the goals and strategies.</em><br /><br /><strong>GOAL ONE</strong><br /><strong>Complete the reconciliation and restorative justice process started by the Community Relations Committee and Transition Team.</strong><br /><br />Strategy One: Take actions which demonstrate our durable commitment to the reconciliation work.<br />Action Items:<br />• Engage Restorative Justice Institute of Oklahoma (RJIOK) for a second phase of culture work with the board, staff and larger community.<br />• With RJIOK help, host a mission / vision / values retreat with the board and community.<br />• Budget for an annual RJIOK board workshop as well as opportunities to share the training with the larger community.<br />• Examine and update our policies and practices, especially related to governance, membership, financial management, fundraising, and partnerships.<br /><br />Strategy Two: Ensure transparency and communicate frequently.<br />Action Items:<br />• Continue quarterly town halls and monthly president’s letter.<br />• Educate community members on our new code of conduct and the feedback mechanisms for handling incidents and grievances.<br />• Reaffirm recent statements regarding organizational challenges and harms; explain the processes completed or in development to address them.<br />• Communicate these updates with the community as they are implemented within the framework of a strategic communications plan.<br />• Utilize targeted communication strategies and innovative methods to engage members and stakeholders in the work.<br /><br /><strong>GOAL TWO</strong><br /><strong>Implement internal and external changes to increase organizational effectiveness and improve governance operations.</strong><br /><br />Strategy One: Create governance structures that support community involvement at every level.<br />Action Items:<br />• Finalize roles and responsibilities of trustees, board, advisors, including a structure for the financial expectations that ensures buy-in but also creates accessibility.<br />• Launch a revised membership strategy that clarifies benefits and responsibilities of membership and creates mechanisms to pay membership dues either through dollars or volunteer service.<br />• Grow our talent pipelines by engaging more individuals of varying backgrounds and skillsets in committee service.<br />• Review and update policies and processes for selecting and onboarding new board members.<br />• Ensure annual training for board members in the areas of nonprofit basics, board responsibilities, OkEq history, social media organization representation, and DEI awareness and action.<br />• Build new ways for business and funding partners to demonstrate allyship.<br />• Actively engage with CenterLink and other national resources so we can learn from best practices nation-wide.<br /><br />Strategy Two: Review community perceptions of OkEq and make appropriate changes to marketing and branding to address concerns and build on positives.<br />Action Items:<br />• Engage professional assistance to review branding and build layered communication strategies (i.e. website, e-news, apps, social media, print materials, etc.)<br />• Recognize our history and accomplishments as we make appropriate adjustments to respond to current and future challenges and opportunities.<br />• Promote Pride as something that lives year-round and is a visible aspect of our engagement in community.<br />• Use the power of storytelling to uplift the voices and diverse perspectives of the community as we expand our outreach and services.<br />• Ensure our images are representative of the diverse community we serve.<br /><br />Strategy Three: Use data to tell our story of impact, report our outcomes, and make decisions regarding the implementation of our goals and strategies.<br />Action Items:<br />• Develop an annual stakeholder survey to track progress on needs, goals, and engagement. Use this data to determine program priorities.<br />• Develop an annual staff survey to track progress on needs, goals, and engagement.<br />Use this data to make staff related recommendations and in evaluation of the Executive Director performance.<br />• Utilize technology tools to track participation in programs and services. Develop surveys to determine client satisfaction as well as relevant impact.<br />• Engage in annual planning and review processes.<br />o Executive Director creates annual operational plans to establish specific goals and metrics involved in meeting the goals of the plan.<br />o Executive Committee reviews the plan quarterly and updates board on strategic plan implementation status.<br />o The board annually reviews the plan at a summer planning retreat and adopts changes to the plan as needed at the Annual meeting.<br /><br /><strong>GOAL THREE</strong><br /><strong>Employ highly qualified staff who are mission aligned and have lived experience in proximity to the community being served.</strong><br /><br />Strategy One: Ensure capable executive leadership.<br />Action Items:<br />• Launch an Executive Director search committee to build out position description, identify the qualities and qualifications needed, and lead an effective recruitment and interview process.<br />• Hire and onboard an Executive Director with a track record of inclusive leadership and demonstrable skills to address the needs of the organization and those we serve.<br /><br />Strategy Two: Invest in a staff structure that provides the capacity to implement strategic initiatives and prioritizes ongoing training and development.<br />Action Items:<br />• Review organization needs and create a long-term staffing plan to address fundamental responsibilities including advocacy, programs, outreach, marketing, fundraising and building partnerships.<br />• Ensure up to date job descriptions and clear organization chart with every iteration of staff development.<br />• Develop staff recruitment and selection processes that balance community experience, diversity, mission alignment and technical skillsets.<br />• Examine compensation structures and benefits to assure workplace retention.<br />• Invest in training and accountability to support continued development for team members.<br />• Hire and train paid front desk workers as needed to augment volunteer contributions. Ensure all front desk workers have the training and updates needed to ensure consistent guest experiences, accurate referrals, and exceptional customer service.<br /><br /><strong>GOAL FOUR</strong><br /><strong>Expand programs and partnerships to improve services and outreach.</strong><br /><br />Strategy One: Engage with community through collaboration and partnerships.<br />Action Items:<br />• Complete community asset mapping to identify potential partners as well as programmatic gaps that may still exist that could be filled by OkEq.<br />• Create structures through which it is absolutely clear and transparent what OkEq’s relationship is with those operating in our space or promoted on our social media (i.e. which are our programs, which are vetted services that are operating under formal agreements, which are given support but operate independently etc.)<br />• Maintain space for hosting third party providers delivering case management, counseling and other important social services on a consistent and widely promoted schedule.<br />• Clarify and strengthen our relationships with existing partners and develop new connections to better serve the community. Update our partnership agreements.<br />• Partner with affirming social safety net organizations to meet the needs of those most vulnerable in our community through services such as housing and rent assistance, food security, trans-friendly clothing and other important needs.<br />• Evaluate our clinic operations to determine which services are best done in-house and which can be provided through partnerships. Invite other clinic providers offering different types of affirming services to use our space during hours our inhouse provider is not in residence.<br />• Partner with credible social justice organizations to lend our name and resources to ongoing efforts to defend and expand civic liberties. Expand our engagement with others in the state around advocacy and public affairs.<br /><br />Strategy Two: Be a hub for connecting people to the affirming resources and training they seek.<br />Action Items:<br />• Expand training and resources for our volunteers to ensure consistent and informed information and referrals.<br />• Actively engage at tabling events and Pride celebrations across the state to both promote our own resources and stay aware of the resources being offered by others.<br />• Update our resource guides for affirming faith communities, supportive health resources, legal resources, equality business members, and other allied businesses and social services. Publish the resource guide on our website.<br />• Actively participate with interfaith and community networks that are seeking to improve equity and quality of life for the people of Tulsa, making sure the needs of 2SLGBTQIA+ individuals are represented at the table.<br />• Expand outreach with local attorneys to provide various legal resources and periodic legal clinics to provide information and guidance to members on relevant topics.<br />• Partner with educational organizations to provide GED classes, language classes, and a variety of professional learning opportunities in our space, targeted to our members’ identified needs.<br /><br />Strategy Three: Offer opportunities to our community members to build leadership, give service, and advocate for positive change.<br />Action Items:<br />• Train a cadre of board and staff representatives to speak to 2SLGBTQIA+ issues with the media and at community events.<br />• Partner with city government, emergency responders, and large institutions to ensure they are considering the needs of Oklahoma’s 2SLGBTQIA+ population when making policy.<br />• Expand the Equality Business Alliance Membership Program.<br />• Offer periodic service-day activities at OkEq and with other service agencies for members.<br />• Work with Leadership Tulsa to relaunch the Lead Together Program.<br />• Provide education, connection, and encouragement to our members and allies, especially those that have the social or financial capital to do so safely, to be advocates within institutions to foster safer spaces overall and push back on efforts to dismantle protections such as GSA’s, BRG’s, DEI offices, and other initiatives that have provided safe harbor.<br /><br />Strategy Four: Always be a safe space where people find community, belonging, and support.<br />Action Items:<br />• Review current safety protocols and security needs and make adjustment as needed to address concerns and potential threats.<br />• Continue and expand our successful line-up of support groups meeting at the center.<br />• Start a program to fill the gap in young adult programming (18-23) that was identified during community listening sessions.<br />• Invest in quarterly community feasts and holiday gatherings to make space for friendship and comradery.<br />• Host, cohost and/or amplify awareness of important community milestones and markers such as Trans Day of Remembrance, World Aids Day and more as appropriate.<br />• Honor those we have lost in our community by hosting an annual memorial service.<br /><br />Strategy Five: Embrace the power of the arts, affirming spiritual traditions, and wellness practices to build community across lines of difference, engage hearts, tell stories, and make powerful social change.<br />Action Items:<br />• Build on the potential of the art gallery with compelling shows and monthly or bimonthly art openings. At least once a year provide a show that highlights some aspect of our shared history.<br />• Support the efforts of the staff and the LRT Advisory Council to maximize the utilization of the black box theater for the benefit of OkEq and the community at large.<br />• Partner with others to offer author talks, lecture series, affirming religious or spiritual programs, holistic wellness workshops and retreats, film festivals, and other types of intergenerational, cultural, and educational programming.<br />• Maintain and expand access to the rich, diverse, and affirming collection provided by the Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library.<br />• Continue the work of the History Project to preserve OkEq documents, artifacts, and community donated items which tell the story of OkEq and of the local 2SLGBTQIA+ community.<br /><br /><strong>GOAL FIVE</strong><br /><strong>Improve the financial, fundraising, and operational structures to stabilize operations and provide a foundation to respond to future needs and challenges.</strong><br /><br />Strategy One: Complete the substantial investments in technology that have been started by the IT Special Committee<br />Action Items:<br />• Finalize the customer relationship management software conversion process.<br />• Implement Asana project management software organization wide.<br />• Launch the “Let’s all do Good” app.<br />• As funding permits, upgrade technology in the meeting rooms to accommodate today’s virtual meeting landscape.<br />• Develop a secure and comprehensive document storing and sharing protocol so resources are available despite staff and volunteer transitions.<br />• Provide ongoing training to staff and committee chairs on best practices, organizational standard operating procedures, and use of available technology tools.<br /><br />Strategy Two: Create and implement a comprehensive financial plan that diversifies revenue streams, ensures financial stability, expands endowments and operating reserve, and supports sound fiscal decision making.<br />Action Items:<br />• Continue quarterly reforecasting and mid-year rebudgeting protocols.<br />• Annually implement a successful end-of-year giving campaign that engages individuals and small businesses in the mission.<br />• Continuously innovate and improve on the annual gala strategy in ways that maximize proceeds and the participant experience. Prioritize ways that people can be included at a variety of giving levels.<br />• Expand our major gifts and foundation support by improved communication and direct contact with current and lapsed donors while cultivating and developing new funders and growing our base of support.<br />• Identify mission-related special-project giving opportunities in addition to seeking general operating support.<br />• Approve a facility rental strategy that balances earned income with in-kind hosting 2SLGBTQIA+ focused events. Market special rental packages that increase facility rental income.<br />• Improve earned revenue opportunities through a calendar of engaging and entertaining fee-based events.<br />• Create effective campaigns that solicit, cultivate and track paid memberships.<br />• With board and trustee leadership, implement a planned giving program and other funding initiatives designed to add to the corpus of the existing endowments with the Tulsa Community Foundation. Review and update as appropriate the<br />investment and distribution terms of the endowments.<br />• Publish a digital annual report that transparently shares sources and uses of funding while highlighting accomplishments and impact.<br /><br />Strategy Three: Expand the value and positive impact that Pride programming provides to the 2SLGBTQIA+ community while managing financial and liability issues.<br />Action Items:<br />• Explore options and determine if OkEq remains the best organization to host and coordinate the Pride festival and programming for the future.<br />• Continue the community listening process related to priorities and most important aspects of the annual Pride Festival to the queer community members.<br />• To address the growing expense and significant staff and volunteer commitment, adjust the primary festival events to a one or two-day event.<br />• With the Pride committee, discuss the opportunities to include more educational and cultural programming with a Pride theme year-round.<br /><br /><strong>GOAL SIX</strong><br /><strong>Refresh and reimagine our Center to better serve today’s community.</strong><br /><br />Strategy One: Continue organizing and refreshment of the Center.<br />• Engage staff, board and volunteers along with professional organizers to help with organizing and decluttering activities.<br />• Support the ongoing work of the archivist and volunteers in sorting and preserving meaningful materials that should be kept for historical purposes.<br />• With trustees, develop a budget and funding stream to provide for the maintenance and replacements of physical assets and allow for ongoing improvements to address changing needs.<br />• With trustees, complete an examination of current space usage and implement facility upgrades that improve the quality of the space, enhance user experience, and maximize facility use.<br />• Innovate new uses for old spaces that prioritize flexibility. With staff and stakeholders evaluate needs for spaces such as staff offices, counseling rooms, clothes closet/food pantry, meetings spaces. Consider co-working or coffee house type spaces that members can use during open hours.<br />• Refresh paint, floor coverings, furnishings, and lighting; add new plants, artwork and office furniture as needed.<br /><br />Strategy Two: Plan and execute a capital campaign.<br />• Engage with staff, architects, fundraising professionals, volunteers, trustees, and contractors to plan a renovation of the Equality Center.<br />• Create a budget for capital improvements and add to the endowment if possible.<br />• Conduct a capital campaign starting with major gift solicitation in 2026 and a public fundraising effort that launches with the 20th anniversary of the Center in 2027.<br />• Implement renovation plans with effective construction management in coordination with the needs of the Center.<br />• Plan a grand reopening celebration for the Center.
Dublin Core
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Title
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[2025] OKEQ Strategic Plan Final Draft 2025 - 2030
Subject
The topic of the resource
Final Draft of Oklahomans for Equality Strategic Plan for 2025 - 2030
Description
An account of the resource
10 pages of a final draft for Oklahomans for Equality's (OKEQ) strategic plan for the years 2025 to 2030. It contains the organization's mission and goals, and detailed strategic goals with their action items.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Oklahomans for Equality (OKEQ)
Source
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https://okeq.org/bylaws/
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
Accessed August 7, 2025
2025
Art Gallery
Asana
board training
budget
budgeting
CenterLink
community
community engagement
community feast
community networks
community outreach
donations
EBA
Equality Business Alliance
Equality Business Alliance (EBA)
executive director
executive director search
executive director search committee
fundraisers
fundraising
gala
health clinic
history project
IT Special Committee
Lead Together
Leadership Tulsa
legal resources
Let's All Do Good
LRT Advisory Council
memorial
memorial service
mission statement
Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library
Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library
OkEq
OKEQ Board
OKEQ Board and Trustees
OKEQ mission
OKEQ staff
OKEQ strategic plan
OKEQ volunteers
Oklahomans for Equality
Oklahomans for Equality (OKEQ)
Oklahomans for Equality Board
Pride celebration
pride festival
Rainbow Library
Restorative Justice Institute of Oklahoma
Restorative Justice Institute of Oklahoma (RJIOK)
RJIOK
safety
safety protocols
security
staff recruitment
strategic plan
support groups
TCF
Trans Day of Remembrance
Tulsa Community Foundation
Tulsa Community Foundation (TCF)
volunteers
World AIDS day
young adult programming
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Dublin Core
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[Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > Our Community Photoshoot and Storytelling
Dublin Core
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Title
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[2025] Ophelia Keeley Interview
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[2025] Pulse Memorial Images
Subject
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Pulse Memorial Images from Orlando, Florida, and Tulsa, Oklahoma
Description
An account of the resource
8 images related to memorials for the Pulse nightclub shooting that occurred on June 12, 2016. The first is from the official memorial site in Orlando, Florida taken during the summer of 2025 by Mary Bishop-Baldwin, and 6 of them are from various locations in Tulsa, including the Equality Center, that displayed rainbow lights in solidarity on the day of the attack. The last image features the names of the 49 victims. This entry also includes an article written by Mary Bishop-Baldwin for the 10th anniversary.
Date
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June 12, 2016; 2025
Creator
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Mary Bishop-Baldwin
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[2025] The First Homosexuals: The Birth of a New Identity 1869-1939
Subject
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<em>The First Homosexuals: The Birth of a New Identity 1869-1939</em> by Jonathan D. Katz and Johnny Willis
Description
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A hardcover copy of the catalogue for the Wrightwood 659 exhibition "The First Homosexuals: The Birth of a New Identity 1869-1939", which ran from May 2nd to August 2nd, 2025. <strong>Available for viewing in-person at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center.</strong>
Creator
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<div style="text-align:left;">Jonathan D. Katz, Johnny Willis</div>
Date
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July 16. 2025
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Dublin Core
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Title
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[Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > Our Community Photoshoot and Storytelling
Dublin Core
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Title
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[2025] Tori Bock Interview
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ad4f75fd0c47696d5f9b5fedcc044d66
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96b039e48a444bc55e97dc89c5ddfb1e
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4dde51fe1252d953c6bdc1eecf20259f
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cb510b3159d7c27fdcc864c9bb07da6a
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/63b7a44b9fec8b91856a021d26d76713.MOV
38d7c10bffc721d623423f57c4a69f02
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/25c7029e88a4c331b85f2aa33847f88a.MOV
165d45a5ecbd2aa20f87764c580ffd90
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/2608dd59df43abaae0030efc09bce268.MOV
bc5fe7197fa3fdb869016c177b7930b0
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/43ad12b4ad779dbca4e65e8c57d3305a.MOV
bcf2ad293929bc74ed675832c2948b4f
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/965e8e48c79d3f1390209c03d6450d42.MOV
3f0a0b0249a0a769bc63b5ad2a902f14
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/dacfb01b1056a82c2d0cbf694645b5b2.MOV
d162b9de47b478dfaff3786e3b4cf828
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/ddc812fd3178f9438f497280119bb077.MOV
6052eafa3c10d00b4f29be7ff055d671
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/5706da4cbfdac6f59a2dfb9fb37ec35a.MOV
26403630958ff28ef99c02e77945b924
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/4a5aaaa598a7c9a264a344624ba90598.mp4
9b228fbdf35e750becbe63ff5845af9f
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/c810135a64947e20bcd448ab3b4d09ce.MOV
7b5215e7da68b1f69e558f41835cca20
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/842ca8ad478da4866a29d4d5d5285103.MOV
a76dbde3c35b92bdc295c7845d83bff1
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/53fb994083912838e3b31c77a86760c3.MOV
f86da5ec148be6d4ecf2a429714c14e7
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/4a2b26d220f2f97652d308b38bb641ea.MOV
0dce5de1b2c7432dd7c76cc66526bc03
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/f392c53762078879a60b5ec5b5b3b08a.MOV
e68912c0842be77d7cb343f607d132b4
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/0a6f5b3e259260ee6540d93ef63fd3e1.MOV
c59189e6234b4a116417a883cfaa1cf9
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/367e4cfb2f3082993473b6e0066b1656.MOV
52132bb0474beb244ec12a2c905e5c84
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/634ea3f9bc701151a19b453767bb74f8.MOV
24dd9eae5fde468e6f4596c7580340c9
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/fa9560dd1a540a8c0bfe0998a9c62b58.MOV
b2792296fec444d4b4d361979bb082f5
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/9a3a9f333632442f7e77ab64c39f0996.MOV
79db65292dfa3f699b8970338ac5c1ac
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/3b4d10004c1341bb0aa18362f8989576.MOV
2aa7ed5832c5863e0d2f32c2b709b44f
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e322c66b124c8d0fe1a739ed3373f0fb.MOV
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https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e259d3f54dd7308e4ee5f00d236ff697.MOV
824eaf21a74eca3f94eb572d3a6fa262
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/2b794ac67e7b75b5004c7cf0a299c4f9.MOV
b2a6c40dcdc0acdc898ee297f94c0e93
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/d76c2f08e1ebb61236768a27a332fc97.MOV
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
[2025] Tulsa Pride Parade & Festival Videos
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
[2025] Tulsa Pride Parade and Festival Photos
-
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/5a2d5f174609df9930fd7f67a9e17d7f.MOV
27c980e2a1a1047ad6c3ab7d2035ec21
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
[Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > Our Community Photoshoot and Storytelling
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
[2025] Whitney Cipolla Interview
-
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/b3d7a6a444abaaf35bcc9695a5df8f15.MP4
7e3f93f6d1827bd4237ac041c5acc846
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
[Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > Our Community Photoshoot and Storytelling
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
[2025] Zen Hatlong Interview
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
[Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
<strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
[2026] Alyssa Bryant Interview
Subject
The topic of the resource
Alyssa Bryant Oral History Project Interview from May 29, 2026
Description
An account of the resource
Alyssa Bryant shares her life journey, from growing up in Oklahoma to her transition and advocacy for transgender rights. This interview covers her personal experiences, her legal practice, challenges, and contributions to the LGBTQ+ community. Interview conducted by Toby Jenkins. Transcript edited by Mary Bishop-Baldwin June 5, 2026. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Alyssa Bryant, Toby Jenkins, Mary Bishop-Baldwin
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
May 29, 2026; June 5, 2026
2026
Alyssa Bryant
available at Center
discrimination
Families
family
Gay Rights
gender dysphoria
healthcare
interview
legal advocacy
legal resources
Mary Bishop-Baldwin
OKEQ Oral History Project
oral history
oral history interview
Oral History Project
oral history transcript
Toby Jenkins
transcript
Transgender
Transgender Rights
video
-
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/2193e3569351ea3010b2f1db940345a8.pdf
61990c5d66826db5bcea65c3e248a9e2
PDF Text
Text
Oklahomans for Equality History Project
The Oklahomans for Equality History Project remembers former U.S.
Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., who died on Wednesday, May 20, after
a political career that included fights for gay rights and tribal
citizenship for the descendants of former tribal slaves.
Frank was the first member of the U.S. House of Representatives to
publicly acknowledge that he was gay. “His public declaration of his
sexual orientation in 1987 — spurred by a fear of being outed, by the
death of a closeted colleague and by his own determination to show
that homosexuality was nothing to be ashamed of — helped
normalize being openly gay in public life,” The New York Times wrote
in his obituary.
His advocacy for gay rights and freedmen descendants brought
Frank to Tulsa at different times.
He arrived at Tulsa International Airport on the morning of Saturday,
June 12, 1999, just in time to kick off an event-filled Pride weekend.
He was the grand marshal of Tulsa’s first ever Pride parade, which
closed the streets from Brookside to Veterans Park (now Dream
Keepers Park) at 21st Street and Boulder Avenue that morning. And
that evening he was the keynote speaker at “An Evening with Barney
Frank,” a gala hosted by Tulsa Oklahomans for Equality and the
Cimarron Alliance at the Greenwood Cultural Center. He flew out
early Sunday morning – after a very early prayer breakfast – to attend
to unexpected House business and was quite apologetic for his
early departure, former TOHR President Greg Gatewood
remembers.
Frank told the Tulsa World for a June 13, 1999, story that “U.S. Sen.
Jim Inhofe – the Oklahoma Republican who recently tried to block
�the nomination of a gay ambassador to Luxembourg – helped inspire
him to join Tulsa's parade.
"‘In a major urban area where there has been a well-organized gay
and lesbian movement for years, they don't need my help so much,’"
Frank said.
"But here, where the political climate isn't so good – where the U.S.
senator has basically said that gay and lesbian people don't have
the right to be American citizens – I want to help out all that I can."
Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, which later became
Oklahomans for Equality, had sponsored an annual Pride picnic for
18 years, and marches on sidewalks were included in 1997 and ’98,
but the 1999 event was the first parade that involved street closings
and police escorts.
Frank returned to Tulsa in 2017 to lend his support and speak at an
event at John Hope Franklin Reconciliation Park in celebration of an
Aug. 30 ruling by a federal judge that the descendants of former
slaves of the Cherokee Nation are entitled to Cherokee citizenship.
Frank had worked in Congress to force the Cherokee Nation to
acknowledge freedmen descendants as tribal citizens, having asked
the Bureau of Indian Affairs and the Department of Housing and
Urban Development in September 2011 to cut off housing funding to
the Cherokee Nation if it did not restore tribal citizenship to Black
Cherokees.
Frank told the Bay State Banner, a Boston newspaper, that month
that he became involved with the issue because “from my earliest
days in politics, I’ve considered race one of the single most
important problems. I think fighting racism is important.”
�The Oklahomans for Equality History Project encourages you to
learn more about OkEq’s history by visiting our online archives at
history.okeq.org.
�
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[Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > In Memoriam
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[2026] Barney Frank Remembrance
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Barney Frank Remembrance Article
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1999 Pride
2026
Barney Frank
biography
House of Representatives
in memoriam
Pride 1999
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Text
Oklahomans for Equality
Oral History Interview
with
David Dees
Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins
Date: April 21, 2026
Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI
Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A
Oklahomans for Equality
History Project
621 E. 4th Street
Tulsa, OK. 74120
918.743.4297
historyproject@okeq.org
1
�About David Dees:
Summary
This interview with David Dees offers a deep dive into the history of LGBTQ+
community life in Tulsa, including early club culture, personal experiences with family
acceptance, and the evolution of Pride events. It provides valuable insights into the
challenges and resilience of the community over decades. Join us for an in-depth
interview with David Dees as he shares his experiences and insights from decades
of activism, community organizing, and the history of LGBTQ+ life in Tulsa. Discover
stories of community resilience, the fight against AIDS, and the importance of
education and inclusion.
Keywords
LGBTQ+ history, Tulsa, club culture, family acceptance, Pride events, community
resilience LGBTQ+ history, Tulsa, community activism, AIDS awareness, LGBTQ+
community, pride, history, activism, community organizing, LGBTQ+ rights
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Background
03:00 High School Years and Early Independence
06:02 First Jobs and Early Adult Life
09:01 Coming Out and Family Dynamics
11:58 Experiences in Gay Bars
15:06 Navigating Relationships and Identity
18:01 The Impact of Family Acceptance
20:59 Police Harassment and Community Challenges
2
�24:01 Reflections on Parental Relationships
38:58 Navigating Heartbreak: A Lesson in Self-Worth
43:22 Family Dynamics and Coming Out
49:52 The Power of Words: Language and Identity
52:32 The Evolution of the Gay Bar Scene
01:02:25 AIDS Awareness: The Community's Response
01:09:43 Fundraising and Support During the AIDS Crisis
01:17:21 Community Dynamics and Discrimination
01:19:14 Violence and Resilience in the LGBTQ+ Community
01:22:37 The Pulse Nightclub Memorial and Community Solidarity
01:27:27 Fundraising and Support for the LGBTQ+ Community
01:32:36 The Role of Bars in LGBTQ+ History
01:40:05 Legacy and Influence of LGBTQ+ Icons
01:43:10 Compassion and Community Responsibility
01:49:21 Messages for Future Generations
David Dees Oral History Interview April 21, 2026
Toby Jenkins: Good afternoon, it's April the 21st, 2026. We are at the Dennis R.
Neill Equality Center in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library, Joe here at
the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. We have David Dees today with us a local
business owner and community leader. Those present for the interviews, Amanda
Thompson, archivist at the Equality Center, Mary Bishop- Baldwin, renowned
journalist and petitioner in the marriage equality lawsuit and also helping here in the
archives. And Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality. And our interviewer
today is Toby Jenkins. All right, David, I know over the years I've heard you talk a
little bit about your family, so I want to get just a little bit of background. Where were
you born?
David Dees: Southern Florida.
Toby Jenkins: Southern Florida? Where at in Florida?
David Dees: By way of Lake Okeechobee area, actually.
Toby Jenkins: And what was your family, were they from Florida or did they…
David Dees: Well, let's see, my mom would have been from Wisconsin, and my
dad's family is all Southern Florida people.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so you were born there, and what year would that have
been?
David Dees: 58.
Toby Jenkins: 1958, okay, and how did you end up in Oklahoma?
David Dees: My dad got transferred out here when I was 14.
Toby Jenkins: 14 years old, and what was his background?
David Dees: He was an insurance salesman.
3
�Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so you came, you left a place with beaches and sunshine,
and old people.
David Dees: And old people.
Toby Jenkins: And you came to a place that had four seasons, bitter cold in the
winter and bitter heat in the summer. What were your thoughts about that as a 14year-old kid?
David Dees: I don't even know if I can tell that story or not. I remember my
grandmother crying, and I'd ask her, what's going on? And she's like, you're moving
to a place where you won't have a house. You'll be in a mud shack with grass on the
roof, and you won't have cars, and you'll have to ride ponies. And I remember going
up to my mom, I'm like, where the hell are we moving? And my mom says, I swear
I've been out there, it's not like that. And thank God it wasn't.
Toby Jenkins: And it wasn't?
David Dees: It wasn't.
Toby Jenkins: And so you would have moved when you were 14 to Tulsa?
David Dees: Mm-hmm, 72.
Toby Jenkins: And what junior high did you go to?
David Dees: Edison.
Toby Jenkins: Edison?
David Dees: Yeah, Edison was a combo junior, senior, 7 through 12.
Toby Jenkins: And then you graduated from high school there.
David Dees: Yes.
Toby Jenkins: Do you remember any details about your high school years?
David Dees: We could smoke in the smoke hole.
Toby Jenkins: Smoking in the smoke hole. Oh, Lord.
David Dees: You know, it was a pretty fun time. Definitely different from what school
is like now, for sure. I think it's more relaxed. We could leave campus to go eat
lunch. We could do a lot of stuff, drive to school. I think they do that now still.
Toby Jenkins: What year did you graduate?
David Dees: 76, bicentennial, baby.
Toby Jenkins: Yes. And do you remember how many were in your graduating
class?
David Dees: Oh, Lord. 650, almost 700.
Toby Jenkins: Right.
4
�David Dees: It was big.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, I think it has less than 300 now.
David Dees: Wow, really?
Toby Jenkins: And so that would have been right at the apex of Tulsa and Tulsa
Public Schools. I think in those days it had about 84,000 students in its school
system.
David Dees: Absolutely.
Toby Jenkins: And it has a third of that now. Most probably because of private
schools and urban sprawl and suburbs.
David Dees: Well, I remember urban sprawl was starting to be a deal because
Union was actually one of the bigger schools then, and then it became Broken
Arrow, Jenks, and now even Bixby is considered really growing huge, I think.
Toby Jenkins: So did you have special interests in high school? Were the things
that you were involved in, other than sneaking around smoking in the smoke holes?
David Dees: Smoking in the smoke holes?
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
David Dees: No, no, no. All I wanted to do was to get out of school. That's all I could
live for.
Toby Jenkins: So when you graduated from high school in 1976, what was, kind of
what was the climate in the United States at that time? What stands out in your mind
and your perspective as a new high school graduate?
David Dees: Seems like you made $1.75 an hour and I remember thinking, wow, if I
make $600 a month, I can pay my rent, my car payment, my utilities, and eat.
Toby Jenkins: And did you go directly from high school into the workforce?
David Dees: Absolutely. I was working before I was out of high school. First job I
had when I got here was I picked up a paper route with the Tulsa Tribune, six days
with the Tulsa Tribune, and threw the Sunday World. And that's how I bought my first
car, my first motorcycle.
Toby Jenkins: What motorcycle?
David Dees: A Honda SL125 dirt bike.
Toby Jenkins: Mine was a Kawasaki.
David Dees: Remember, they used to have the strip pits over at Yale and, oh gosh,
North Yale. What is that out where the airport is? There's Pine and then Apache,
Yale and Apache. I used to ride those strip pits all the time out there as a kid.
Toby Jenkins: They're still there. They're still riding.
David Dees: Still burning too, I think.
5
�Toby Jenkins: They're still riding motorcycles out there too, Sunday afternoons. So,
your first car?
David Dees: Oh, Lord, do I have to say that? 1976 Ford Pinto Station. A green one.
Toby Jenkins: I'm more embarrassed than that. I had a 1976 Gremlin that was
orange.
David Dees: Oh, dear God. At least it wasn't that horrible gold. I remember that. I'm
like, those hubcaps are horrible.
Toby Jenkins: Now, was yours a hatchback or a station wagon?
David Dees: Mine was a station wagon.
Toby Jenkins: Oh, okay.
David Dees: You know, hey, I was cool. I think it had the wood grain down it too.
Toby Jenkins: So, what was your first job after high school?
David Dees: Oh, Lord, that'd have to have been Fur’s Cafeteria at the Farm.
Toby Jenkins: What did you do at Fur’s Cafeteria?
David Dees: You do not want to know. So, I started out in the dish room, then
wound up on the serving line of all things, and then wound up as a dining room
supervisor out there. That was crazy.
Toby Jenkins: And so, were you on your own? I mean, had you already moved out
of the house?
David Dees: The day I graduated, I broke my mom's heart. I'm up early and she's
like, where are you going? I said, I've been telling you for a year that I graduated, I'm
out of here.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
David Dees: She didn't think I was serious.
Toby Jenkins: Was it just because you wanted independence or did you feel some
kind of...
David Dees: I think it's a combination of things, honestly. I think I was figuring out
that there was something different about me. You know, I already knew because
back then, you would have to go sneak to QuikTrip or get a little Playboy magazine
or something, you know? So, yeah, I knew there was something different about me.
Oh, yeah, that's right. Holy crap. I was kind of a young kid sneaking out, going into
the bars. Yikes. I've forgotten about that because I was 15, I guess.
Toby Jenkins: Wow. You were already about 15. How do you identify?
David Dees: Gay man.
Toby Jenkins: Gay man. Ok. So, even at that age, you already had figured out you
were different?
6
�David Dees: I knew at 12 I was. Probably, you know, it's real funny because looking
back for years, I remember being in... What would I have been in? 3rd or 4th grade
and I had a teacher, you know, a male teacher that I always remember was a
striking, good-looking man and every time he walked by, I'm like, mmm, English
Leather Lime. So, you know, maybe that was the beginning that there was
something different about me back then. But I didn't know what it was, you know
what I'm saying?
Dennis Neill: That was my cologne, too.
Toby Jenkins: I was Jovan Musk.
David Dees: You know, I may have worn that, too. Aramis and all of those.
Toby Jenkins: Alright. So, do you feel like you wanted to be out of the house
because you knew you were gay or just you wanted the independence as a young
adult?
David Dees: A, B, C, D, E, F, G. Wanted to come and go as you... Absolutely all of
it. Absolutely all of it. You know, part of my life, there was no business that was going
on, you know. I'll never forget my mom even coming into my house one time. It was
right after I'd moved out. You know, of course, we may have smoked a little weed
back then and we may have had cute little bongs and nobody knew what they were.
And I remember my mom had come into my house and I'd walk by my table and I'm
like, whoa…And she has taken my bong that was like a little Roman girl holding a
flower basket and had put flowers in it and then told me how dirty the water was in it.
So yeah, there was a lot of reasons when I left home.
Toby Jenkins: Where was your first place, if it was your place?
David Dees: Oh my god, it was a trailer park and it's still there at Admiral and Yale.
Toby Jenkins: Admiral and Yale.
David Dees: Behind the K-Mart. Well, it used to be the K-Mart, McElroy now.
Toby Jenkins: By the post office?
David Dees: Yeah, well, it used to be tiny, tiny and then they made it for big trailers.
I mean, there were twice the trailers in there when I lived in there.
Toby Jenkins: Did you have a roommate?
David Dees: Nope, no.
Toby Jenkins: You were working at Fur’s Cafeteria.
David Dees: Yep, well, yeah, by then I'd gone on to do something else. I don't even
remember what I was doing then. I think I was working downtown somewhere.
Toby Jenkins: Now, you mentioned that you could go into the convenience stores
and you could buy magazines.
David Dees: Your adult magazines.
7
�Toby Jenkins: Yep, you could buy them in there.
David Dees: Absolutely. Blue Boy, Playgirl. Seemed like they actually even carried a
few that were geared toward gay men.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, well, Blue Boy.
David Dees: Blue Boy was definitely, but there was another one. I can't remember
what they were, but of course, I remember going to the clerk. I'm getting this for my
mom. Oh yeah, but your mom wants to look at Blue Boy.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so you talked about, you hinted at that you were already
aware of gay bars and that you were trying to sneak into those.
David Dees: Oh Lord, that's right. That is, okay, I do remember how I found my first
gay bar. I was, Lord have mercy. This is when I worked at Fur’s and I was dating a
girl who dumped me to go with a flaming gay man, of all things.
Toby Jenkins: You were just too butch.
David Dees: I don't know what it was, but then I remember one night hearing them
talk about how, you know, we're gonna go by the gay bar and yell at the queers and
the fags and I'm like, oh, cool, you know? And so I go with them and then of course,
I'm like, oh, so here's the Friends Lounge at 3rd and Utica, cool. Okay, guys, I need
to go home. I don't feel good. My stomach's bothering me. 45 minutes later, I'm back
down there sitting in my car on the parking lot.
Toby Jenkins: And it was, tell us a little bit about the Friends. That would have been
your first gay bar?
David Dees: I didn't go into it. I was scared to death, but I mean, I sat, many nights, I
sat outside that thing and just watched, watched, watched from a parking lot. The
first bar that I ever went into was the Old Queen of Hearts downtown. And that was
on, what, like 9th to 10th on Main, but on the east side of the road. It's a parking lot
now.
Toby Jenkins: On the Fruit Loop?
David Dees: Yes, on the Fruit Loop, absolutely. And that was also one that I sat
outside forever and I remember, oh, Lord, this is a traumatic experience. I'm sitting in
my car and there was this guy that had been, I guess, watching me several weeks
just sitting in the car. You know how you do, sit down, look over the door, you know,
that far over the glass. And he finally taps on my window. He's like, what are you
doing? I said, I'm just sitting here watching. He goes, well, why don't you go in with
everybody? And I was like, man, I can't go in there. What if somebody knows me?
You know, and of course he's like, well, what the hell do you think they're in there
for? I'm like, oh yeah, cool idea. So I go in there. I finally get the courage about 30
minutes later going to this bar and I walk in there and they had a quiet bar in front
and then in the back was the disco area. And I remember walking in there and it was
so dark, you know, you can't see anything. So you're just kind of stumbling through,
making your way through. And she's going to appreciate this story because I'm going
to name this lady's name and you'll know her.
8
�So I walk into this thing and then I go through the double doors of the disco. There's
a strobe going on. I'm like, holy crap, I can't see anything. And all I remember
hearing is a girl scream.
Oh my God, that guy that just walked in. I went to high school with him. So I turn
around and I run and this little flamboyant cocktail waiter had come in behind me and
had his tray with the glasses up like that. And I mean, bam, I hit him so hard.
Glassware flew everywhere, knocked him on the ground and I stomped him just
going out the door, like running out the door, man. I mean, I'm shoving people out of
the way. I'm in the middle of Main Street, almost to the church parking lot across the
street because it was right across from the Christian church. And I am almost to
where my car's parked and I feel somebody jump on my back and I go down into the
street face first and I'm like, don't hurt me, don't hurt me, don't hurt me.
And it's this girl going, David Dees, David Dees, I'm Patty Murray and we went to
high school together. Sure enough, her and I used to sit in a smoke hole and smoke
all the time.
Toby Jenkins: Well, we've heard about the legendary Patty because she eventually
worked the door at Zippers.
David Dees: Yes, and then Dr. Beal's office. She was, you know, in Dr. Beal's office
for years when the AIDS epidemic first came on. Or is it crisis, I guess? Both.
Toby Jenkins: So, someone you knew from high school clocked you and then
dragged you back in. I did go back in. And did you apologize to the waiter?
David Dees: I did not apologize to that waiter. I was praying nobody would even
remember me.
Toby Jenkins: And so you went in and what was that experience once you got in
there and it was somebody you knew who helped you?
David Dees: You know, I remember the first song I remember hearing, believe it or
not, Strawberry Letter 23. That old disco tune. And I'll probably never forget that
song because that was the first thing playing in there. And I just remember like, this
is pretty cool, you know. Basic room, it wasn't really much of anything. It was just a
bunch of people dancing. And I loved the music.
Toby Jenkins: Big crowd, small crowd?
David Dees: For what I remember, you know, it was probably a pretty decent, it was
a full room of people. I don't remember how big the room was at the time, but I
believe that was actually, might have been one of the bars that Tim Turner was
involved in originally before he went to the Old Plantation and some of the others
that he did out, you know, around town.
Toby Jenkins: And this was Queen of Hearts, if I'm following?
David Dees: Correct. And it went by another name too, but Queen of Hearts was the
first name that I remember it being as. And then up the road you had the Zebra
Lounge and the Taj Mahal around the corner, which I just noticed they tore all of that
down to redevelop that whole block now, where Bank of America built, the branches.
9
�Toby Jenkins: The Holiday Innmis across from the big tall building there.
Toby Jenkins: So this would have been in the late 70s, would have been 77?
David Dees: No, mid-70s.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. So this was before you'd even graduated from high school,
right?
David Dees: Maybe, I'll let you take it.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, very good. Because this was somebody you knew from high
school. Yes, yes.
David Dees: Yeah, right after high school.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so were you still working at Fur’s Cafeteria during this
time?
David Dees: Probably so, actually.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. So for many of our viewers, they'll know you as a business
owner and a club owner and a DJ and all of that. Tell us a little bit about your early
adult life and your, I mean, I'm wanting to jump to how I know you through the clubs,
but I'm sure there were some career changes and maybe some relationships.
David Dees: Yeah, I was going into Zippers underage. Well, I'd met John Willis at
the Old Plantation, which was at 51st and Yale. It had been a bar called Bojangles,
and then Tim Turner took it and turned it into a gay club. And that's where I met John
Willis. John Willis was, at the time, still married but coming out and in the process of
getting ready to divorce. And he did some of their sound system and stuff. So, Lord,
I'm trying to think. And then after the Plantation, it was shortly after, I think the
Plantation lasted a couple years before it caught fire and burned. And then about
that time, George Kravis had done, let's see, I'm trying to remember, I think it was
Casablanca first, at 33rd and Yale. And it was supposed to be like a little gambling
casino that had slot machines and card games and stuff. And it was geared towards
the upper-scale clientele.
And then, of course, it got raided by the state, shut down, and then reopened for
about six months as Sweetwater Station. And Sweetwater Station was straight, but
gay-tolerant. I mean, you went in there, you could dance with another guy, and
nobody said anything, you just didn't, yeah, you didn't make it…
Toby Jenkins: This would have been what year?
David Dees: 77, 76, probably, somewhere around that.
Toby Jenkins: David, we were talking a little bit about some of the early gay clubs,
and this would have been in the mid-'70s, late-'70s, and you would have still been
just a young man, possibly sneaking into these clubs, because you may have been
underage. During this time, if I remember correctly, all clubs were private clubs, and
you had to have a membership to be present, and you had to bring your own liquor,
didn't you? Were they?
10
�David Dees: That's how you're supposed to, yes. The way it worked was you had a
membership to the club, they'd say, what's your name? You gave them your name,
what's your liquor? Crown Royal. So, what they would do was, when they bought
Crown Royal, they put your name on the bottle, so everybody's, every bottle up there
had a name, but you'd walk up to the bar and you ordered what you want, bourbon
and coke, Jack and, you know.
Toby Jenkins: So, the experience was similar to what it was, but this was how we
got around and said we didn't have liquor by the drink in Oklahoma.
David Dees: Correct, correct. Now, yes, very similar to today, but very different from
today, because of the police harassment back when Chief Jack Purdy was in, in
office, the TPD, they would come through the bars, you know, to check compliance. I
remember they would walk through Zippers, and they carried these batons, metal
batons, and they'd knock ceiling towels out of the ceiling, like looking for drugs, walk
by. I remember one night, they walked by the water fountain that sat between the
men's and women's restroom and knocked it over, looking for drugs. They were
destructive. They'd knock tables over walking through the bar. It was crazy, it was
the craziest stuff you ever saw. Back when the bars were downtown, jaywalking
tickets all the time for crossing the street in the middle of the street.
Toby Jenkins: They would sit parked outside.
David Dees: Oh, absolutely, outside of the gay bar, well, outside the Queen of
Hearts at 10th and Main, John Smith, you know, got a ticket for jaywalking. So, they
made a point to put your name in the paper, you know, where you were jaywalking
and where you were jaywalking at. You know, and of course, it was only at the bars,
the gay bars downtown. It wasn't like they were doing it over at, you know, the Mayo
Hotel.
Toby Jenkins: So, you were working your day job, and you were living independent
as a young adult, had your own place. Relationship with your family was still warm
and friendly?
David Dees: You know, that's kind of a weird thing, too. My family did find out right
after I had moved out from home, my brother accidentally outed me because, you
know, my brother was one of these kids that I'm, you know, go up to my mom and
say, hey, can I borrow the car, where are you going? Well, I'm gonna drive by the
gay bar and yell the queers in the bags, you know, and my mom'd be, boys will be
boys. So, of course, he's doing that one night, and like I said, I mean, you got used
to being chased in the bar by people that wanted to hurt you or do something to you.
I mean, I'd had people chase me once with a tire chain from 35th and Winston,
running in, get in the parking lot. High school kids usually is what it was, or other high
school kids or young adults. Tire chain once, a tire iron that you used to loosen your
lug nuts with. That sort of thing.
So I remember, it was on a Sunday, because I was going in for the beer bust, and
I'm walking in the front door, and just as I pulled the door open, I heard, queer
faggot, and I turned around, I don't know what it was, it was just that night, it just hit
me, and I'm like, I'll fucking kill you. I'll turn around, I'll go after somebody tonight.
You've just caught me right in the right mood. And I bowed up and turned around, I
was getting ready to go, and I'm like, oh shit, that's my brother.
11
�And it's my brother driving by 33rd Street towards the Get and Go [convenience
store] in my mom's Pontiac. She had this Catalina, so it was a whale of a car. And
he's driving by, and he's like, like that, and I'm like, oh shit. And I just went on in, and
about that time, I heard chomp, and he jumped the curb, and had grazed the parking
lot light at the Get and Go at my mom's car. And I look at it, and I'm like, shit, he's
fine. I just went on in the bar, I wasn't gonna deal with it. My younger brother, he's six
years younger than me.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so he saw that, and then he told your family.
David Dees: Oh yeah, of course, he went home. My mom's like, what happened to
my car? Well, I was driving by the queer bar, yelling at the queers, and I saw David
going in. And of course, my mom's like, well, why would David be going into a gay
bar? And my brother immediately tells mom, well, maybe he likes the music, you
know? And so nothing's said for probably about three or four months, okay? And
then I remember one night, my mom walked up to me, and she's like, I wanna ask
you a question. I'm like, okay. And she's like, are you gay? And I just went flush. I
mean, I'm like, shit. And I looked at her, and very tactfully, I said, mom, I want you to
think about the question you're asking. And if in your heart, you don't wanna know
the answer, don't ask the question, because I've never lied to you, and I'm not gonna
lie to you. So she's like, are you gay? Mom, again, I'm gonna tell you, if you don't
wanna know the answer to this, don't ask the question. And so she asked me a third
time, and I'm like, okay, yeah, I am.
And then, of course, immediately, she kind of went into the spiel, like it goes against
everything I know. It goes against what religion has taught me. And God, it was such
a detailed conversation. I mean, she's really calm about it, but she's like, I don't
understand it, and I worry about what kind of life will you have? Will people be mean
to you because of it? What if somebody hurts you? She just had all these questions
and these fears. And I said, mom, I assure you, I'm comfortable with who I am. I've
navigated this water for a while, and I'm okay.
Don't worry about what kind of life I'll have, or if I'm happy, or if anything, because
I'm okay. And I said, I'm smart enough to know how to protect myself. I know where
I'm safe. I know where I'm not safe. I'll be fine. And then her final question, and I
made her cry on this, because she stopped and she looked at me and she goes, so,
and she was dead serious too. So, when you go out at night, do you put on a pink
dress and pink high heels? And I looked at her and I said, where in the fuck did you
come up with that?
I said, that's the stupidest shit anybody has ever said to me. Where did you come up
with that? Then of course, immediately she burst into tears, because it took me a
minute to realize that's just all she knew. It's what she had been told, or what she'd
been taught, or what she knew about it. So, she wanted to learn, you know, and she
told me, she said, I don't understand it, I don't like it, you know, and I'm worried that,
you know, you might not get into heaven or something like that. You know, and I
said, mom, I'll be honest with you. I said, you know, I've got my relationship with my
higher power, and I said, I'm sure when my day comes, we'll sit at a table, we'll have
a discussion. I said, I'm sure I'm gonna get passed on through, so, you know, don't
worry about that. And.
Toby Jenkins: Was your relationship strained after that, or…
12
�David Dees: Not with her, but it was like a couple of months later, you know, I'd
gone over to the house, and, you know, I'd go over and help my dad tinker on
carburetors on the car, stuff like that. We'd work on a lawnmower, work on my
motorcycle, something. And I'd gone over there one Saturday morning, it was a
couple months after my mom had found out, and my dad was odd, I mean, I'm just
like, hmm. You know, he's got a burr up him, but I don't know what it is.
And so we were going to an auto parts store to get a part, and I remember, we're
sitting in the car, and we're going north on Sheridan, I think Guy Hinshaw's had a
store at Admiral and Memorial or something at one time, years ago. And so that's
really dating me, I know. So we're going to this thing, and I remember, my dad's not
saying anything, he's just staring straight ahead, and I look over, and the first thing
I'm seeing is, I'm like, and his knuckles, he's had the steering wheel so tight, his
knuckles were white. And I'm like, okay, this isn't good.
And I didn't say anything, and we're sitting there, and we almost get to where we're
going, and out of the blue, and I mean, man, I don't think I'll ever forget the tone of
his voice, because it absolutely set the relationship that I had with him after that. He
was just like, and staring straight ahead, so tell me about this fag shit. And I
remember thinking, uh-oh. And I was like, we're only going 35 mile an hour, if I open
the door and I roll, how they taught you in school, tuck, drop, and roll, I won't get hurt
that bad.
And then, again, I don't know what came over me, I thought, you know what, screw
this, I'm just not gonna deal with it. And I just looked at him and said, what the hell do
you wanna know about it? And then, oh God, that set him off. He's like, you're not
my kid, I regret the day you were born, never wanted to see you again, don't fucking
ever come to my house again, I mean, just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom,
boom, boom, and I'm like, okay, and I got back, we got back to the house, and I got
on my bike and I left.
Well, it was about a couple of weeks later, my mom calls me up, and she's like,
where have you been, you haven't been over here the last few weeks, where have
you been? And I said, well, here's the deal, Mom, you know, if we wanna hang out or
you wanna see me, you need to either come to my house or we'll go somewhere. I
said, because Dad's made it very clear that he doesn't ever wanna see me again, I'm
not welcome in his house.
And my mom paused for a second and she said, I'm having dinner, dinner will be
ready at 7.30, be at the front door, and I said, no, you don't understand. You know,
Dad's told me not to come back to the house, I'm not coming back to the house. And
she repeated herself again, she said, dinner will be on the table at 7:30, be at the
door, and I'm, yes, ma'am. So I did, I showed up at the house, knocked on the door,
and she came, and we lived at this house at 35th and Joplin, so it sits up on a hill,
has a long sidewalk to it.
And I walked up to that thing, walk up to the door, knocked on the door, and she
opened the door, and she goes, oh, hold on just a second. And she went and she
pushed the door closed, but then it came back open about that far. And so I'm
standing there at the door, and God dang, and now this is what solidified my
relationship with my mother, okay? I mean, my dad already did what he did that, you
know, set the tone for future things with him. But my mom, you know, you gotta
13
�remember too, my mom was June Cleaver from Leave It to Beaver. You know, hair
in place, white pearls, always a pretty tote and fetch housewife. Honey, I'm home,
get me my beer. Okay, dear, here's the paper. I mean, she just, that was my mom.
She was just a product of that era, you know? So I never heard her raise her voice to
my dad. She never nothing. And the only way I know to describe this is probably
pure, raw anger, maybe a little bit of hatred, I don't know it was. It was just so raw.
But I heard her scream at my dad. At the top of her voice she's like: this is half my
house, he's my son and as long as I live here he'll always be welcome here. And I
turned, I walked off, I was, I was like hell, no, I ain't going in there. And I just walked
down the sidewalk. It spooked the shit out of me and I'm going down, I'm getting in
my car, I'm almost at my car in the street, getting in my car and my mom, holler, she
said: where are you going?
And I just stopped. And I did. I just didn't know what to do. I absolutely did not know
what to do and I just kind of looked at her and there she goes, I'm fixing to put dinner
on the table, come on. And I stood there for a second. She said. I said, come on. I
said yes, ma'am, you know. And I walked up the stairs and went into the door and,
man, I didn't know what I was gonna see. Honestly, it was like I think, maybe I felt
like I was gonna see the silence of the land, slaughter or something.
I just don't know what I thought and I walked into the table- my dad's sitting at the
table, my brother and my sister is sitting at the table and of course my mom's got her
apron on and she goes, have a seat, I'm fixing to serve dinner and nobody looked
up. Everybody was just looking down at the table. I mean that's the most
uncomfortable dinner I've ever had in my life, but you know, it was, it was really
weird. After that, with my dad, it was over. My dad tried to pretend that it just never
happened.
Okay, the stuff, the stuff that he said you just you never forget. I mean, you know.
But it taught me a very powerful lesson: you never say anything in anger, because
once you've spoken words, you can't take them back. And I never forgot anything
that he said. You know I'll never forget him saying: I regret the day you were born.
You know, I wish I'd never had you. You're not my child. I mean that ride home, I
mean it was just like duck, I'm just a boom, boom, boom. And I just sat there, you
know, and just you know.
And I finally told him: dude, I remember telling. I said you know what, dad, you have
the right to feel the way you feel, and I understand it and I respect that and if that's
how you feel, so be it. You know it is what it is, you know, and that was the last thing
I really said to him, you know. And then of course, the deal happened, you know,
with my mom doing what she did that night. So my mom honestly, truly taught me
what the definition of unconditional love is: absolutely 100% compassion,
unconditional love, all of it. You know. Now my dad, on the other hand, just tried to
pretend like it had never happened. And you know it, it never…. I don’t know, maybe
I made peace with it. I don't know that I ever made peace with him. I just never
brought it up with it again. But my relationship with him was never the same. Now, in
his final years, when he did get finally and really super poor health- and I knew it was
to the point that my mom just could no longer deal with it- I did move back to where
they were living to help her with him, you know.
14
�And then, of course, he lived about two weeks afterwards his health had deteriorated
pretty bad and he would be like, you know, I wish you'd move out here, I wish you'd
come out here and I just, you know, I never, I was never gonna be a dick to him or
disrespectful to him, but I just, absolutely I think…I don't know if I was just hurt or if I
had just lost respect for the man, in all honesty.
Toby Jenkins: That was powerful. Very painful for you to talk about it, but now, you
probably over the years, you have interacted with people who have…
David Dees: It absolutely shaped me. It reminds me of something that happened at
Majestic. Golly, I bet we hadn't been open three or four years. And I remember this
kid come, and I call him kid, I don't mean it to be insulting, but I mean, to me,
especially being almost 70, I mean, an 18, 19, 20 year old is a kid to me, you know?
And I remember this little boy came running up to me and he said, he goes, David,
one of my friends is crying, you know, on the porch, something's happened. Can you
go help him?
And I'm like, oh God, you know? Cause I didn't, at that point, I didn't know what
happened. Somebody beat this kid up, somebody do something to him, what's
happened? So, you know, I came down the stairs, you know, and this kid's following
me. The next thing you know, there's a couple of kids, you know, boys and girls
following me. And I, as I get to the front door, I hear this kid sobbing. And I mean, the
minute I heard the sob, I'm like, okay, this is a broken heart cry.
I mean, I knew what it was, you know? So, I walk out here and it's this young boy,
and I bet he's probably 19 or 20. I know he wasn't drinking age, he couldn't have
been drinking age. And he's sitting on that park bench we had at the front door and
he's just crying. And I'm like, okay, buddy, tell me what's going on that is so terrible
that you sound like you've lost your best friend.
I said, what's going on? You know, and he's like, my... b-boyf-... boyfriend just broke
up with me. And of course, he's blowing snot bubbles and everything, you know?
And I just chuckle, I'm like, oh God, your first love. Okay, it makes sense, you know?
And so, you know, I just kind of looked at him and I said, okay, tell me a little bit
about what's going on here. You know, how long have you known this guy? Th-...
three months. I'm like, okay, how long y'all been, how long y'all been together again?
Th-th-th-th-th-three months.
I'm like, okay, and you're how old? N-n-nineteen, I think he said he was nineteen,
because I remember saying, okay, to make that math easy for me, let's just say
you're 20. So let's see, if you're 10 years old, that's 3,600 days. So if you're 20 years
old, that's 7,200 days, you know, that you've lived life. You know, of course, this kid's
just kind of looking at me. And I said, so what happened? He was like, he c-c-c-ccheated on me. And I said, okay, is it the first time? Th-... three times.
And I said, so you've been together 90 days out of the 7,200 days you've been alive.
You've been with somebody 90 days, and he's cheated on you three times in 90
days out of the 7,000 days you've been alive. Yes. And I said, I just looked at him, I
said, do you think you deserve that? You know, is that what you think you deserve?
And he's like, no. And I said, you know, I wish I could tell you that in a perfect world,
this never happens, I said. But the reality is, you're probably gonna go on to love
multiple people, and you're probably going to, I hope it doesn't happen, but you're
15
�probably going to go through several relationship breakups. I mean, it's gonna
happen.
I said, I'm glad you found out in 90 days out of the 7,000 days you've been alive,
rather than go through a long time with somebody to find out that they've been doing
things like this to you for a long time. I said, the reality is, you're gonna be okay. You
know, pick yourself up. You've got friends in here. They're scared to death, they're
worried about you. And of course, a couple people are peeking around that wall
looking, you know. And I said, you know, they're worried about you. You'll be fine,
you know. You're gonna go on, things will happen, you'll be fine. I promise you, you'll
be fine. You know, blow your nose, go back inside, and have fun with your friends, I
said. But most importantly, know what you are worth. And know that, you know what,
if somebody that you've known in that short a period of time can admit that kind of
feeling and make you feel that horrible, go, know what you're worth, because you're
worth more than that.
Toby Jenkins: Wow, powerful.
David Dees: Majestic to me has always kind of been like a little ministry, because I
mean, and I've described it as that. That's exactly what it was to me.
Toby Jenkins: Absolutely.
David Dees: And maybe that's been the key to its longevity.
Toby Jenkins: So, all of this is very good insight into what our community's like.
You mentioned that your brother would call you these names and you were going to
these gay bars.
David Dees: There's an interesting story on that. My brother was so horrified by
what, because he never intended that to happen. He just honestly answered a
question to my mother, you know. And then, of course, shortly after that, he moved
to Dallas and it was, let's see, my dad died in 84 that my mom was killed in a car
wreck a year later. My dad died at Thanksgiving of 84. My mom got killed at
Christmas of 85 and let's see. So Jim graduated- well, he was graduated from
college when my mom got killed because she was going to his college graduation. I
should have been in the car with her. I had gone to a Christmas party the night
before and was hungover and didn't make it. So he, once he graduates, he goes to
Dallas. So I guess it was seven, seven or eight years later he called me. He's like:
I'm coming to town, let's hang, let's hang out. And I said, well, you know, I'm going
out with some friends Friday night. You know, if you want to, you you can go with
me. I'm going to Zippers. Yes, because it's before Zippers is closed.
So I guess it's several years later, actually a couple years later, because Zippers
closed, I think in 88, somewhere around there- and Jim was like: okay, and I told him
I'm like: don't be an ass if you, if you're going, if, because you know I was, I was in a
long-term relationship during that period from 76 to about 83 or 4, you know, and Jim
knew about it. He always kind of made jokes about like where's your wife, or you
know where's the other woman had, or the little woman, or so you know, he just
made comments like that.
And so I said something to him about, don't be an ass. You know, I'm gonna be out
with some friends. If you want to come hang out- you truly want to hang out, like you
16
�say you do- then let's go. So we're in Zippers and it was busy- and we're standing by
the dance floor. You know that long dance floor. So we're between the restroom and
the dance floor staring at the DJ booth and a guy walked by and Jim goes- he's cute,
and I bit my tongue because I'm like man, I'm gonna knock the hell out of you,
because I thought I wasn't sure if he's mocking me or or just being an ass or what
you know, and I don't say anything. And then, probably about another 15 or 20
minutes he's like he's hot, and again I'm just, I'm holding my composure, and then all
of a sudden he just takes off and I'm like good, I don't have to deal with you.
And about 30 minutes later he shows back up. He's like, I got his phone number and
I went, whoa, whoa, whoa, dude, what the hell's going on here? I am confused. I'm
like, have you switched teams or what? You batting with us? Yes, yeah. And so I
looked at him. I said: you know, are you, are you jacking with me, are you serious?
He goes: no, I'm serious, and I said so, when did this happen? And he said, he said
he always knew, which is why he was driving by Zippers when he saw me going in.
But he said my dad's reaction was so adverse that he was afraid to come out and
that's why he snuck off and went to Dallas and had been out living in Dallas.
Toby Jenkins: So your mother would have died.
David Dees: They never knew.
Toby Jenkins: So your parents…
David Dees: My parents never knew about him. Now I remember my dad, you know,
which goes back to the story. My dad would try- well, you know. Well, let's, I'm gonna
work on the lawnmower today. Why don't you come by? And I just at this point
wanted nothing to do with him. I mean, you know, I was like I already know who you
are.
I'll probably never forgive you for all of that. And I remember…One day, you know
he said something he's like: well, you know you, just you don't come over, you don't
hang out anymore. And I, I just lost it on him and I remember looking, I said you
know what you, you and I, our dates are done, I'm done, I'm out of here. You know
I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not your buddy, your pal anymore. I said: but I tell you what,
you want to play daddy to somebody. You've got a kid in there, a young, a young son
in there. I suggest you be a man, you play daddy to him, you know, and that's. I
walked off from my dad.
That was probably really one of the last few things I really said to my dad a lot as far
as anything else. I would acknowledge him. I'd say hi, but that was really the last
really hard conversation. And he did, he stepped up to the bat for my brother, you
know, and became a good dad to my brother. But my brother was so horrified by
what had happened that he was afraid to come out.
Toby Jenkins: So I wanted to ask you, you have the recollection of them calling us
queer and faggot and saying horrible things. Some of the stuff your dad said. What
are your feelings about, we've asked this in interviews, how we use phrases today
that are painful to us of a certain age, but yet people want us to use those phrases to
identify our community?
David Dees: I don't like the words, and for the most part, I won't use the words.
17
�Toby Jenkins: The words?
David Dees: Fag, queer, you know, sissy, just a lot of them. That being said, I have
learned to respect the fact that maybe you will use it, or you don't like to use it. And
that's probably an age thing, like I said, I've gotten to the point where I respect the
fact that I don't have to like it, I don't have to agree with it, but that's your choice to
do. It's not being used out of malice. So I guess it's just a word. It's only got the
power that you give it. I mean, let a non-alphabet soup person use the word.
I wouldn't say let a non-gay person, but I mean, trans people I think could say it.
They're entitled to use it, gay people, lesbian. There's a lot of the definitions maybe
that I don't really quite understand because they didn't exist when I was growing up.
But if you're in any part of the community, then I feel like it's your choice if you want
to use it and you're okay with it, because maybe it does mean something different to
you than it does to me.
Toby Jenkins: Is it painful to you if somebody calls you queer?
David Dees: I don't like it.
Toby Jenkins: Does it bring back some of those emotions where you experienced
verbal harassment?
David Dees: Oh, it'll piss me off. Because to me, it's a derogatory thing. I mean, I
depict it like I said, the N-word. I mean, it can be a very powerful derogatory term.
And again, I grew up in that era. I remember even for black people, I remember what
it was like for them. I saw it firsthand.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, so we have you as a young adult. We've talked a little bit
about this, and I just want to…when did you make the transition when you began to
work for the clubs? And that became...
David Dees: Early 20s. I was in my early 20s.
Toby Jenkins: And so it has been a lifetime career, right?
David Dees: Pretty much, yes.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, so that would have... Tell me about your first job in a gay bar
or a club.
David Dees: That would have been in Zippers. Yeah, it would have been in Zippers.
Toby Jenkins: Really?
David Dees: Yeah, absolutely.
Toby Jenkins: And that would have been what year?
David Dees: 84, 85.
Toby Jenkins: Work you a bartender or…
David Dees: Really technical-minded. I mean, I loved electronics, all this stuff. So I
learned the lighting system. I could go in and rebuild those lighting controllers and
18
�those drivers. Back then, everything was all mechanical parts, transistors, Triax, just
different electrical parts. So something crapped out, you had to chase it down,
troubleshoot it down, solder it back, rebuild it. When the lighting fixtures died,
changed transformers in them, I just learned how to... The electrical end of it, and
knew it, like the back of my hand was very good at it, picked up on it real quick. John
Willis was a genius, and he was just a big old geeky nerd. I mean, he was a nerd,
and a hi-fi nerd. He went on to own the Gramophone back in the day, which was a
big major high-end hi-fi shop. The sound that was in that club, there's a really storied
history on that club. I mean, when Kravis had that built, Richard Long and Associates
out of New York, designed and built it. The cabinets were custom made for that
room.
Toby Jenkins: What club?
David Dees: Zippers.
Toby Jenkins: Kravis had..George Kravis?
Dennis Neill: Yeah, and wasn't it the same team that did Studio 54 in New York?
David Dees: Yes, yes. Sound Garage, was it Sound Garage? Or what was the
name of that? Something Garage, [Paradise Garage] but yes, the Palladium. Yes,
that was the company that built the sound systems for these big clubs. And as a
matter of fact, was it, there's a hi-fi magazine, a nationwide hi-fi magazine at the
time, that did an article about Zippers, talking about how Richard Long and
Associates out of New York had designed this sound system and how it was the
most powerful sound system west of the Mississippi.
Dennis Neill: That's one reason I'm wearing hearing aids.
David Dees: Oh, it was an incredible, you know, for a long time, I actually had part
of that sound system too. I still have the lighting controllers that came out of that
room.
Toby Jenkins: So, you were the lighting and sound tech, or were you the DJ?
David Dees: Yes, lighting and sound tech. I didn't learn to DJ until 88, 89, when Jeff
Lunsford had turned that bar into Sterling's after John closed Zippers.
Toby Jenkins: Real quickly, Crash Landing did you ever DJ at Crash Landing?
David Dees: No, Crash Landing was over about, oh Lord, Lewis. So, 3rd and
Lewis's Warehouse Market, there's a cul-de-sac about 4th and Lewis. So, Crash
Landing was on the north side of the cul-de-sac, the church was on the south side.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
David Dees: But no, Crash Landing was a competitor to Zippers.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, would have been open about the same time.
David Dees: Yes, I think Crash Landing maybe only lasted what, a year, two years,
maybe. It wasn't a very long-lived club.
19
�Toby Jenkins: This was, you say, around 1984?
David Dees: 85, 86, somewhere around there.
Toby Jenkins: You would have been 22, by then 23, something like that.
David Dees: Oh, I gotta do the math. So, 58, yes, yes, I would have been in my mid20s.
Toby Jenkins: So, your first job working, that was your full-time job, what you did.
David Dees: Yes.
Toby Jenkins: And you mentioned you were in a relationship. So, you would have
been upfront and personal to see what was happening in the community.
David Dees: Yes.
Toby Jenkins: Do you remember this organization, which in those days…
David Dees: Yes, that's what I was fixing to say. It was TOHR that had the helpline
back in John Willis' office.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, which was at Zippers?
David Dees: Correct. John had a line back in his office, and it only operated a few
hours, on Friday and Saturday night, like seven to nine or something like that. But it
was a phone number that you could call. They would tell you where the bars were at,
where there were resources for us, if you needed help. I mean, it was literally the
lifeline, the beginning of a lifeline for the community.
Toby Jenkins: And so, you were aware that there were other people beginning to
organize to address…
Speaker 3: Yes. Well, and it seems like, when did we do the first Pride at Mohawk
Park? I could swear that that went on back, maybe in the late 70s, but I can't
remember if it was late 70s or early 80s, because, okay, the first Pride I remember at
Mohawk Park, Zippers had a part in it. I think the Toolbox had a part in it. Was it
Toolbox, or was it Tracy's New Edition back then, even?
Toby Jenkins: And these would have just been picnics in the park?
David Dees: Yes, yeah, yeah. And Coors came out and would have the beer tent.
They would supply the beer for us. So, the bar owners would buy hamburgers, hot
dogs, and supply the fixings.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and then the organization took over the Pride events in 1882.
Dennis Neill: Actually, the organization did the first Pride in Chandler Park in 1982,
yeah. And we did a few, but then, you're correct, then it morphed into more of the
bars taking over Pride for a number of years.
David Dees: Well, now this, we were doing this, I think, since like in the 70s, I
remember this.
20
�Toby Jenkins: This is important. I've had individuals talk about there were some
picnics before the organization had to take it over.
David Dees: Yes, yes.
Toby Jenkins: Now, it would be helpful if eventually we can get enough people to
give us the details.
David Dees: Well, you know what? I do think, after TOHR, because like I said,
TOHR didn't exist in the beginning, and then they did exist with Zippers. So, TOHR
may have taken over Pride later on. But yes, the first couple ones that I remember
were in Mohawk Park, and way at the very back of the park. I think that area's even
closed down now.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. I feel like it's real important that while some of you guys are
still alive, we need to find somebody who has some documentation.
David Dees: Tim Turner should have some information.
Toby Jenkins: I keep hearing that there were some Pride picnics, and I know when
this organization had, because they've got the receipts to prove it when they had to
take over. And it developed, because I know, I saw the records from 1982 where
they estimated they had about 400 at Chandler Park.
David Dees: Yes. There's a lot of people.
Toby Jenkins: So, okay. So, there was that. And this organization, and Dennis and
his collaborators felt like they needed to organize to take care of the community.
David Dees: Before TOHR, did it have a different name, or was it TOHR, then it
became OHR?
Dennis Neill: Other way around.
David Dees: It was OHR, and then you did a branch of TOHR.
Dennis Neill: Correct.
David Dees: Okay, all right.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. So, about this same period, David, how many gay bars and
clubs were there in Tulsa?
David Dees: Oh, Lord.
Toby Jenkins: Let's say about 1984.
David Dees: I'm gonna say 12.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
David Dees: Probably, because they were scattered all over town.
Toby Jenkins: Were places like Zippers, were those gender inclusive? Were there
men and women in there together, lesbian couples, male couples?
21
�David Dees: You know, Zippers was.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, was there…
David Dees: While it was, I'm gonna say it was probably a third women and two
thirds men, but Zippers was very…
Toby Jenkins: And you would have had drag queen entertainment?
David Dees: Absolutely.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
David Dees: As a matter of fact, there's an interesting story about that. We had a
drag queen in the 80s. It was back when Safeway stores were around, and Safeway
stores, there were several of them that were getting robbed, like armed robbery,
okay? And they were looking for this beautiful blonde chick. And of course, when the
Tulsa Police Department posts her picture, the gay community's like, huh, that's KC
Starr, the drag queen. I kid you not, for six months, TPD thought they were looking
for a black woman, or a blonde woman, sorry, before they finally figured out they
were looking for a drag queen and popped her.
Toby Jenkins: And did arrest her?
David Dees: Oh yeah, oh yeah, they got her.
Toby Jenkins: So it's 1984, there were people beginning to organize outside of just
the private gay clubs. When did you hear about AIDS?
David Dees: See, this is gonna be a really interesting story because it was such, it
was a different time. I mean, today we've got the internet, we've got all this
information. You know, back then, the internet, I don't even think when AIDS first,
yeah, the internet was probably a thing, but most people didn't know about it. You
know, there were bulletin boards and that sort of thing set up, like for colleges where
people get information and stuff. But probably about the time, late 80s, early 90s,
when AOL became a thing. With AOL coming around, that's when chat rooms were
forming. And so as AIDS became more and more talked about and we knew what it
was, you know, the gay plague first and the gay cancer and all this stuff, and then all
of a sudden you see that it's kind of spreading in other areas. But there were chat
rooms out there because I remember having a friend that was HIV positive and
finally passed away in 95. But in the early 90s, I would get online and I would search
through all these bulletin board rooms out there that had people living with AIDS and
survivors because I kept thinking, okay, what are people doing that's working? What
are people doing that's not working? You know, because I was desperate to find
anything for this friend of mine. You know, like, oh, I make dandelion milk or I do this.
You know, so I'm like, well, dandelions supposedly aren't good for you, but how
many people are talking about doing this and how many people, you know, are doing
whatever? And, you know, now we know that there's so many different strains of it,
but then you didn't know that. So really what you were looking at is the people that
are living, what are they doing? You know, maybe that's what's keeping them alive.
Toby Jenkins: But before the internet, you would have began to hear, talked about.
22
�David Dees: You heard it on the news. That was really all you heard about.
Toby Jenkins: You weren't talking about it in the clubs.
David Dees: Nobody knew, really knew what it was. I mean, well, okay, when HIV
first started, I was in that relationship, okay? That was about the time. So I missed
probably the first four or five years of it. You know, because I was in a monotonous
relationship. Then I come out and of course, you know, I'm missing friends that I had
from 10 years ago, but that wasn't a big deal because everybody left Tulsa then. You
went to Dallas, you went to Denver, you went to San Francisco, you went to New
York, you went to Atlanta.
Everybody left Tulsa, you know? So it wasn't uncommon to all of a sudden, you
know, Bob was here, Bob's not here. So you just, you didn't really think about it. I tell
you what was the, what really made it hit home for me was, and I think Sharon was
the one that got that information for me, was I remembered, I found an old VHS tape
that I'd made of the Oklahoma Quilt when it got brought to Tulsa in 92 or 93, I guess
is when it was.
Dennis Neill: 90 was the first, 1990 was the first.
David Dees: Yes, I got it the second time.
Toby Jenkins: Here was the first time it was on display, it was 1990?
David Dees: Yes, at the Cox Convention Center, Civic Center. So I went through
with the videotape, because as a matter of fact, I just put that on Facebook not too
long ago, that video that I had transcribed, because I think I sent you a link to it or
something, you'd asked me about that so y'all could have that for the record. So that,
man, I'll never forget going in there and it's such a huge room and what felt like were
thousands of panels to me.
I mean, because they were in great big squares, you know, like what, 50 foot by 50
foot or more, maybe they're 100 by 100 foot squares, you know, with all these panels
in a big square. I mean, it was just huge and there were, it felt like hundreds of them,
of those big squares in there. And you're walking through and you're looking at this
thing and you're like, holy shit, so that's what happened to Bob. Oh my God, there's
John. Oh my God, there's Terry. I mean, it was just, it was fucking nuts. I mean, back
then, cell phones didn't exist.
If you called somebody long distance, long distance was expensive, so you just lost
track of people, you know? And it wasn't like you had a way, you didn't even know
where somebody moved and if they moved, how do you know where they moved to
and how do you get their phone number? And, you know, and then God forbid, it's a
dollar a minute to call somebody and talk to them.
Toby Jenkins: During this time, so chronologically, I'm gonna ask this. So you're
working at Zippers….
David Dees: By then, I was, let's see, Sterling's, Sterling's and then after that was
Deep Elm at 61st and Memorial, which was the old Palladium. Lord, and then after
that, I did go spend three or four years in a straight club. I wound up, Steve Kitchell
owned the Palladium that was at Eaton Square at 61st and Memorial. Well, then
23
�Cindy Robson, who is part of the Robson family, had RCB Bank at the time, back in
the day and was married or somehow part of Walmart heir. She opened that bar and
called it Deep Elm for a while. Well, she wound up losing it, and that's when Steve
Kitchell took me and put me in the Ocean Club, and I spent four years in the Ocean
Club.
Toby Jenkins: As a DJ?
David Dees: Yes.
Toby Jenkins: DJ and lighting. Lighting and sound?
David Dees: Yes. So for four years, I was kind of out of the gay bar.
Toby Jenkins: And then you went from that to
David Dees: Concessions.
Toby Jenkins: Concessions.
David Dees: Correct.
Toby Jenkins: And then you went from concessions to...
David Dees: To the Silver Star.
Toby Jenkins: Silver Star. And then Silver Star, you opened Majestic.
David Dees: Majestic. Yeah, 23 years ago.
Toby Jenkins: So I just wanted to get all that on the record. During that time, back
to HIV-AIDS, did y'all begin to see the community organize and do fundraisers?
David Dees: Yes. But I didn't get to be a lot of part of that because I was working at
Ocean Club. But that reminds me, there was the boxer, Tommy Morrison.
Toby Jenkins: Yes.
David Dees: Who contracted HIV. And he was a big player at the Ocean Club. So
when that happened...
Toby Jenkins: He was an Oklahoma player.
David Dees: Yes. That sent...
Toby Jenkins: A title holder.
David Dees: That sent ripples through the straight community. I mean, when I say
ripples, I'm talking like six foot waves. I mean, it was insane.
Toby Jenkins: And you were working in a straight club.
David Dees: Yes. Yes. And I remember the wave of panic that started going through
that bar.
Toby Jenkins: When it began to hit what we thought was...
24
�David Dees: All of a sudden, it's in the straight community.
Toby Jenkins: Heterosexual community. Yes.
David Dees: Yes.
David Dees: So then, by that time, when was it that I left? I left OC in 95. So in 95 is
when I'm back in our community. Because it's like I told Steve. I said, man, I've been
out of my element four years. I appreciate everything that I got to do. And I've lived a
dream here. But I'm a fish out of water. And I needed to be back in my element.
So then I stepped back into the world where all of a sudden, we're doing all these
drag benefits for people that are dying. And as a matter of fact, it's really funny too.
The first benefit that Majestic did right after we opened was a drag show benefit to
raise money for a headstone for Caitlin Kane, Chad Burrell.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. I remember it.
David Dees: Because his family wouldn't put a headstone up. And all of his friends
were so distraught over that that they came to me and they said, can we do
something and get a headstone? I'm like, yeah, we'll raise some money. And we
raised it and we had it made. And his friends had input on what they wanted in it.
And we had it placed on his grave. It's still out there.
Toby Jenkins: So anything else about how AIDS impacted the community and the
fundraising efforts that were going on in the clubs and things like that?
David Dees: God, they were just constant. You had like, what, Red Ribbon Review.
You had, I mean, everybody was doing it. It seemed like we had food pantries, I
think. TOHR, I think, did a lot of stuff. Y'all had a food bank, I think, at one time that
we would raise and donate canned goods for and stuff. Catholic Charities.
Toby Jenkins: So you had the clubs. When do you remember the Tulsa County
Health Department and the HIV testing that began to happen in the clubs?
David Dees: I remember that happening with us. I don't think that that was really
being done before us because I remember...
Toby Jenkins: But what club do you first remember there were people there to do
testing?
David Dees: Okay, TOHR did STD testing for, like, syphilis and gonorrhea. Did we
even have HIV tests for a long time?
Dennis Neill: Well, what we did, many of us that were doing the STD testing, then
we got certified with the Health Department to do HIV testing. But we did that at the
OSU Clinic on Southwest Boulevard.
David Dees: That's correct. You are right. You're right. I do remember that now.
Dennis Neill: We did not do HIV testing in the bars.
David Dees: Yeah. Yeah, we first started doing that...
Toby Jenkins: TOHR didn't.
25
�David Dees: No, nobody did. Nobody did.
Dennis Neill: Not that I'm aware of.
David Dees: No one did.
Toby Jenkins: Well when, because when I first came out that was the first thing I
was told.
David Dees: I think I remember we being the first ones to do.
Toby Jenkins: At Star?
David Dees: No, at Majestic.
Toby Jenkins: No. I first met you, you were the DJ. I was at the Star.
David Dees: We did not do HIV testing at the Star. Absolutely did not.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah you did. Because the first time I ever walked in a gay bar I saw
a table and they said what are they doing they said they're doing HIV testing and that
would have been in the late 90s.
David Dees: I don't remember that at all. Not at the Star. Absolutely no.
Dennis Neill: Well that that could be because you know Hope testing by then was
doing mobile testing and I remember going to Renegades and they were testing at
Renegades and that would have been in the late, after we spun off Hope. I don't
know if we did testing in the bars while Hope was part of OHR.
Toby Jenkins: Well I may have it all blurred in my mind.
David Dees: Yeah, the Star never did. No, I think they would do a few fundraise
drag shows kind of things but no.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, the reason I'm saying that is because first time I ever went into
a club and you know participated in it was at the Silver Star and in my mind you
know maybe Concessions I don't know. I can remember somewhere in a club I
asked what that was during that period and my thought is I want to get tested but
what if I find out I test positive and I'm here in a club I don't really want that all out
here I want to do that privately so I went to Tulsa County Health Department to be
tested.
David Dees: You know we would set up a little spot upstairs that we curtained off.
Toby Jenkins: Definitely at Majestic. Yes. From the day it opened it was serving the
community. Because I came to you and said I need to register voters.
David Dees: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: You set me up, you gave me my own little space. And we registered
about 6,000 people through Majestic in a four-month period. I mean I, we would,
David and them would line them up just like cattle chutes. Run them up. You had to
be registered. This is when we were fighting over marriage equality and George
26
�Bush had said he was going to put the constitutional amendment. So that would
have been you know 2003, 2004.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
David Dees: It took a lot of heat for doing HIV testing in the bar from a lot of people.
Toby Jenkins: Oh really?
David Dees: Oh absolutely. They're like well God what a downer, what are you
going to do if this happens? I said you know we've got things in place but but here's
the here's the deal and what I would do you know they would be set up and people
would just be staring. So what I figured I had to do every time and for the longest
time I did do was when they'd come and set up and we'd get people in there I'd go in
and get tested and then as soon as I did it you'd have three or four other people do
it.
Toby Jenkins: So nobody wanted to be the first person to get tested. At this point
our community didn't sometimes want to face the reality.
David Dees: No absolutely not.
Toby Jenkins: They didn't want to face their own mortality. They also didn't want to
they didn't want to really be involved in fighting for their own liberation because those
kind of things were dull and a downer and and you know I can remember trying to
register people to vote and them just cussing me out. Why are you bothering this
dude? I'm trying to get my buzz on you know they would get mad.
David Dees: I'll say this about our community. Our community can be very
interesting. I've said many times that it never ceases to amaze me. The people that
scream the loudest about discrimination are oftentimes the worst about doing it and
you know I've been it's been said to me many times about what are straight people
doing in Majestic? Well this is a man's bar you know I've heard this stuff for years.
I remember the Silver Star back in the days when we were also still half country half
punk because it started out as country okay and I remember the women lined up
along one wall and the men on the other side of the building just glaring at each
other across the thing because the men hated that I would play waltzes because the
women would waltz and they were too slow and they wanted to two-step and the
women hated it because the men would two-step and slam into them.
Toby Jenkins: Interesting. I just knew I loved it, it's beautiful.
David Dees: Yeah, and the Silver Star really, again, was something that shaped me,
that I thought, okay, if I ever get my own room, this is how it will operate. This is what
I will tolerate, this is what I will not tolerate. And I've always run that room that way.
Toby Jenkins: We've talked a little bit about the violence and the attacks and people
being threatened and people being accosted. Do you have any recollection of, like,
we've talked about people calling you names and the police harassing you. Do you
have recollections of acts of violence? And I wanna lead into this to the night that
you hosted the memorial for the Pulse Nightclub shooting. But prior to this, do you
remember over the years, acts of violence we talked about?
27
�David Dees: When I was younger, absolutely, I remember going to the bars and
what it was like.
Toby Jenkins: I think you mentioned some club owner had been killed or?
David Dees: That was probably a situation where somebody might have been out
doing their thing and ran across somebody that was unsuspected while they were
doing their thing. But there was a club owner that was, well, that was murdered out
at Mohawk Park. That had a drag cabaret at, do you remember who? Okay. I just
didn't wanna say his name.
Toby Jenkins: If it's on public record, you can share it.
David Dees: Who knows if that's public record now? I mean, because again, it's
probably on microfiche somewhere, but I mean, where do you find that microfiche?
And did that microfiche survive?
Dennis Neill: It's on our website, our history website.
David Dees: So, you know, that was- It's Mr. Tim.
Dennis Neill: Well, I thought it was the partner of Mr. Tim that was murdered.
David Dees: For some reason, I thought it was Mr. Tim. I think it was him, actually,
butDennis Neill: And he was also winning the publisher of Another World.
David Dees: Yes, I forgot about that little rag mag, yeah. Sure enough, it was Mr.
Tim. It was kind of our version of Twit and the Galey back in the day. Sure was.
[Editor’s note – In 1990, bar owner Tim Turner wrote a history of the early gay bar
life, “A Flash from the Past,” which is in the archives and available at
history.okeq.org. In the article, Tim clarifies the Mohawk murder: The Blue Haven
opened
November, 1948 by the 'much loved' Producer, Activist and Entrepreneur, the late
M.C. Parker. M.C. Parker and Tim Warren would later cultivate and produce the
largest, most spectacular Oklahoma Gay Event in history, the Miss Gay Oklahoma
Pageant at the Camelot Inn. (Tim Warren, his life partner forty years his younger,
was later murdered and his body discovered in Mohawk Park. The murder was never
solved, as well as most gay murders in our city as I recall.]
Toby Jenkins: So, about the violence, being yelled at, being threatened, were there
stories of people were beat up outside of the clubs in those 80s, 70s, 80s?
Speaker 4: 70s, early 80s, yeah. Maybe it picked up a little bit when AIDS first came
on the scene because we all of a sudden became the plague. And this is probably
where my, again, another unpopular thing that I always did. I was always kind of
straight women, okay? Because when AIDS was just full blown and everybody hated
the gays and you couldn't touch them and God forbid, don't eat off a fork or a spoon
or something that they've touched or drink out of their glass. Straight women, I mean,
we had our fag hags for lack of better words, you know?
28
�So, straight women, to me, were our first ally, really, honestly. So, I always made it a
point to treat them with respect because, again, my deal was the only way that I am
ever going to educate anybody about gay people is to show you that my skin is the
same as yours, it feels the same as yours, it has hair like you. When I cut myself, I
bleed red just like you. I am no different from who you are other than the fact of who I
fall in love with. Other than that, there's no difference.
Toby Jenkins: Do you remember when y'all agreed to host the memorial for the
Pulse nightclub shooting? And what a difference the community, I mean, there were
skyscrapers that were lit in rainbow colors to show solidarity.
David Dees: You know, but here's the deal, Toby. We've always been, Tulsa has
always been like that, it seems like. I mean, I noticed that, especially probably in 95,
96, towards 2000, okay, after I left Ocean Club, I didn't tell anybody where I was
going. Nobody knew where I was going. I just left, abruptly left. One weekend I was
there, one weekend I was not. Nobody knew. So then I'm at Concessions, and it's
probably two or three months down the road, and all of a sudden I see three or four
girls in there that I knew from the Ocean Club, you know? And then a week later,
there were 40 or 50 women in there that I knew from the Ocean Club. You know,
eight, nine months later, half the room I knew from the damn Ocean Club. You know,
and then all of a sudden, with those women, two or three boyfriends or husbands.
And then more, and then more.
And it just, all of a sudden, Concessions was the first bar that really was a melting
pot. And it was. Because it was right there on Peoria, in the middle of the strip,
everything. And that's when, initially when they opened, you entered in the back door
through the parking lot alley. Well, as things started growing, Kirk was like, you know
what, fuck this shit, we're gonna open the front door, we're here, we're queer, and
we're gonna know.
And for years, the Peoria, or Brookside Merchants Association, for probably four
years of the five years that bar was open, ignored that bar. That it didn't exist. They
did everything, boo-ha-ha, all that crap. Never once were we ever included in
anything, with anything with the Brookside Merchants Association, never. And then
we did that drag queen car wash on the back parking lot.
Toby Jenkins: At Concessions?
David Dees: Yes. Courtney Farrell and the Brookside Divas did that drag queen car
wash. And it blew up. And they did multiple drag queen car washes on that parking
lot to raise money. But, you know, getting back to what you were saying with that
Pulse thing. You know, it's really funny because all of the years that we've been
there, not once have I ever worried about anything happening in that bar. Because it
seems like the straight community loves that bar as much as the gay community
loved that bar. And I always felt like people just wouldn't tolerate anything being done
to it. And nothing in 23 years has ever been done to that room. It's never been
vandalized. It's nothing.
Toby Jenkins: Very good. Do you remember the Pulse nightclub memorial service
that was there?
29
�Toby Jenkins: I can't remember if GT was the mayor or if he was a candidate. He
was there. Um, he's running, I can't remember.
David Dees: I'll never forget you telling, you shouting, we love you Orlando. And all
those people. I mean, it was loud. I mean, there was a lot of people.
Toby Jenkins: And the skyscrapers downtown. They had put rainbow things on it.
David Dees: It was insane.
Toby Jenkins: And the police, for every gay person, there was two police there to
protect us that night when we went out to the Guthrie Green.
David Dees: I remember they were on the roof of my apartment across from the
club, sharpshooters up there.
Toby Jenkins: I just wonder, when we came to that place to remember it, it was
important that the interfaith community and corporate leaders and political figures
knew that we considered that our sacred space, that it was there because people
had been murdered in Orlando in a club.
DavidDees: Absolutely. Just for having a good time, being themselves. They were
hurting nobody.
Toby Jenkins: And I just want to say for viewers, multiple times you have hosted
memorial services for individuals.
David Dees: Yes.
Toby Jenkins: Fundraisers for people in crisis. And for causes, not just for the
LGBT community, but foster care organizations, domestic violence organizations.
David Dees: Because I mean...Emergency Infant Children Services, for example.
We have lesbian women that have children that depend on that, you know? And I've
had people go, well, that's not a gay organization. They're helping gay people. What
the hell does it matter? And again, you know, it boils down to, even with things that
are going on now, why are you still letting these straight people in here? You know
what, dude, here's the deal. We're not gonna get anywhere by being shitty to
somebody. The only thing that we can do is continue to educate people.
Toby Jenkins: Can we put that on a banner?
David Dees: Well, it's the truth, it is the truth.
Toby Jenkins: It needs to be a logo.
David Dees: Why are you trying to, you know, some bad man touched you and hurt
you, okay? They're not all doing it, so why are you gonna be mean to everybody?
You know, we've got a lot of people out there. Again, the only way we are ever going
to get them to understand who we are is to educate them as to who we are and that
we are no different.
30
�Toby Jenkins: Do you remember when we had the first parade and I believe you, I
don't remember what club it was, but I remember you being at the parade and we
had a float. I know Renegade's float caught on fire, but …
David Dees: Yeah, I just, the thing that stands out for me is I will never, y'all were
coming down 15th Street, it seemed like, and I think it was the World got a picture of
that flag with everybody carrying that flag. Thing was huge and beautiful, God, it was
beautiful.
Toby Jenkins: And then for years, we organized over there at the Tulsa Theater,
whatever it's called now. What is it called now?
David Dees: Tulsa Theater, it was Brady Theater back then.
Toby Jenkins: And we would organize in that parking lot and come down and right
in the middle of the bike race, the bike race, and you guys had to do all of that. And
then the city council told us we had to change our, look, had to change our route.
David Dees: You know what's funny about that damn bike race now? As soon as
that bike race is over, that crowd comes into the club and it'll catch a drag show. It's,
well, you know, we, I remember, I think we were one of the first LGBT organizations
that put money into a race. We'd do like a little cash prize for the blah, blah, blah,
whatever, little bounty thing or something. And I remember the first time I walked up
to them, I'm like, what's this y'all are doing? And they're like, well, you know,
different people, like, you know, the first person that comes through that's wearing a
Santa hat on, you know, blah, blah, blah. So they'd have all these different things
open and I'd be like, okay, you know, 500 bucks for this person or whatever. And I'll
never forget the first time I heard, you know, Club Majestic, blah, blah, blah, yeah.
And people were like, what?
Toby Jenkins: I want to say this for our viewers. I've always appreciated so much
your support of all of the community and for everything that was happening. And the
unique thing about you, David Dees, is Club Majestic, for as long as I was involved
here at the Equality Center, was one of our corporate sponsors for Pride. Now, let
me make sure our audience understands the difference. You would write a
significant check out of your own business and personal to corporately support Pride
as a cash gift. In addition to, you would let us have fundraisers there to raise money
for Pride and all the different accoutrements of that.
Many times, our clubs would let us have fundraisers at their clubs, and then they
counted that as their sponsorship, and they wanted to be recognized as a sponsor,
yet we were the ones that raised the money in their clubs. And I was happy to do
that. But it alwaysDavid Dees: I get it with them.
Toby Jenkins: Because you wrote a check and gave it to us and then let us have a
fundraiser there too.
David Dees: Yeah, a lot of these smaller clubs just didn't have the means that we
had. You know, we were fortunate to be the big boy on the block. So, you know, and
when you're the big boy on the block, you've got a little more responsibility and a
little more, and you've got more leeway to be able to do something.
31
�Toby Jenkins: But I want it on the record.
David Dees: I appreciate that.
Toby Jenkins: You did more than the others.
David Dees: It was never a thing that was done for recognition.
Toby Jenkins: It was just, yeah. So I wonder if our panel, does anybody else have a
question for David Dees? And do you have anything specifically you want to make
sure we include in our interview?
David Dees: Man, I had so many notes. You know, one thing that I wanted to
mention too, that I think is really important to bring up in our history is, again, it goes
back to back when HIV was devastating us. There's, up on North Denver, there's, I
think it's a little Catholic, Hispanic church now, white. But that's where Catholic
Charities had the hospice. And that's where I had a lot of friends that actually…
Toby Jenkins: St. Joseph House.
David Dees: Yes, yes. You know, I had many friends that wound up there because
their families either couldn’t take care of them or wouldn't take care of them. And
some people I know that passed away there, went there because their families didn't
know. Oh, that's another thing I was going to bring up too. Do you remember when
TOHR was at 36th and Peoria? Up above and Daddy's Bar and Grill was there. John
Willis had that.
Dennis Neill: And well, wasn't it Rick's?
David Dees: Yes.
Dennis Neill: And it wasn't John, it was Jim.
David Dees: Jim from, he was with the Tulsa County Court. Jim and Rick, Rick was
his partner. And then after they closed it, John did Daddy's there.
Dennis Neill: That's right, right.
Toby Jenkins: TOHR's first LGBT center.
David Dees: Was that, or were you at 41st and Harvard first?
Dennis Neill: Yes, the only thing at 41st and Harvard, which is actually 39th and
Harvard. It wasn't really large. So we didn't have a community meeting.
David Dees: That's correct.
Dennis Neill: And we did not have a store there.
David Dees: You all just moved the phone lines there, didn't you, from Zippers.
Dennis Neill: And then we ran HIV testing out there for a while.
David Dees: That's correct.
Dennis Neill: And then we ran the AIDS Support Program out there.
32
�Toby Jenkins: Anything else on your notes?
David Dees: Well, I definitely, you know, and you do have it on your site, but I think
it's important to bring up that Tim Turner, who owned Tim's Playroom, wrote a history
of, I mean, like, good Lord. I wish people could have met Gene from the Bamboo
Lounge. What a character, what a character. That's all I've got about him. What a
character. Everybody had to have a rite of passage. You took them in to meet Gene.
Toby Jenkins: At the Bamboo.
David Dees: At the Bamboo, yes. And Gene would, we would be like, Gene, John's
never been here before. You need to make him a pair of jeans. And oh, Lord. He,
boy, he was a flamboyant little queen. Like, first thing, here's what I remember about
the Bamboo, okay? I remember walking to the Bamboo and like, what a beautiful
aquarium behind the bar with, I've never seen so many dicks in my life in an
aquarium. They had dicks that blew air bubbles and dicks that the fish were eating
algae off of it. I mean, there were penises everywhere in that aquarium. They
probably even had a penis-shaped fish that you just didn't know was in there
because you were too busy looking at all the penises in the aquarium. Lord have
mercy. But man, what an incredible man he was. He was such, such a neat man.
Toby Jenkins: It was such a loss when that club closed.
David Dees: Absolutely.
Toby Jenkins: Because it had the distinction of being one of the longest clubs
around. And we tried, at the time, the present administration, or the previous
administration of Obama, they were beginning, the National Park Service was
looking for historical places to register on the historical registry. And we were trying
to work to get Bamboo included in that. And then it closed.
David Dees: You know, the, what was it, another thing that, you know, our bars, too,
were so diverse back then. You had your gay men's bar, you had the cruise bar, you
had the dance club, the women had their bar. You know, so it was like, I remember,
the Zebra Lounge was pretty much down about, what, sixth to seventh on Main. It
was the block north of Harrington's, when Harrington's was there. You know, that
was where your older clientele hung out. You know, Taj Mahal, of course, was your
little hustler bar. Lord have mercy. We had so many different, unique things. You
know, TNT's, how long did TNT's go on for? They were a good 20 years.
Toby Jenkins: Oh, longer than that.
David Dees: Easy. You know, I remember the Club, when it was on Memorial, back
in the day. I'll never forget. Jane Ann Earl. Lord, I was, okay, I was working at a bank
at the time. I'd just gotten, I was a bank teller for like two or three years, and I'll never
forget. You know, she was a larger than life lesbian woman, okay? I mean, and she
was a big woman, and she drove a Pontiac Bonneville, big old tank car, and she'd
come flying that thing, and I always, here's what I remember about her. On her dash
of her car, she had like a leopard print dash cover, and she was just rough and
tough. I mean, she was tough, and I always loved her, and she would always look at
me, she'd be like, hi, baby. Oh, Lord, she was such a neat lady, Jane Ann Earl. I
need to go try to look that name up. She'd have to be dead by now.
33
�Toby Jenkins: The helpful thing from this interview is that we now know that Patty
was your high school friend. And rescued you in the street, made you come back in
with wanting to get her interviewed. Anything else on your notes?
David Dees: And she may or may not remember that, but I was just like, she was
like, David Dees, David Dees, I'm Patty Murray, we went to high school together.
Don't hurt me.
Toby Jenkins: Anything else on your notes that you want to make sure we include?
And then I would like if Mary or Dennis have a question for you.
David Dees: Oh, absolutely. Let's see. Oh, the Camelot Inn, Trudy Tyler, our first
Miss Gay Oklahoma, U.S. of A. She was crowned there.
Toby Jenkins: Very good. And that would, do you remember the year?
David Dees: I want to say 75, I think.
Toby Jenkins: And I've been told, Dennis may know from the archives, because I
think it's included in our archives, and it was covered by the media. They would have
people protest outside that the Camelot was hosting the pageant.
David Dees: Absolutely, absolutely.
Toby Jenkins: And the Camelot was a bougie place in those days.
David Dees: Yes, it was, absolutely, very much so. And I don't remember if she
wrote for the World or the Tribune, but Joanne Gordon. I mean, that lady, and I think
I furnished y'all with copies of that, too, where she's like, Joanne discovers the Fruit
Loop, and she wrote a whole article, because she would, her and her husband,
they'd write editorial, you know, just a little commentary every day, editorial-type
thing.
Toby Jenkins: And for our audience, what was the Fruit Loop?
David Dees: Oh, Lord, the Fruit Loop was, okay, let's see. We go down to 6th
Street, okay, so it started at 9th Street, go down past Holy Family Cathedral to 6th
Street, then we would head east on 6th Street to Main, and then we'd come up Main,
go past Kathy's, 8th and 9th on Main, and then turn right at the apartment complex
that was there, and go back to Boulder.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so these were all one-way streets in downtown Tulsa.
David Dees: Yes.
Toby Jenkins: And it was like a cruising place where people could…
David Dees: Hundreds of people cruising, and it was every night of the week, but
Friday and Saturday night, you'd have 100 cars on that parking lot across from Holy
Family Cathedral until the cops would run us off.
Toby Jenkins: I may know a little bit about it, or maybe not, but it was very popular.
David Dees: I know a lot about it.
34
�Toby Jenkins: All right, our panel, does anybody else have a question for David
Dees? We've got a person who was there and saw it happen.
Mary Bishop-Baldwin: When did the Fruit Loop's driving end?
David Dees: 80s, probably, yeah. Because all the bars started moving out of the
downtown area. Because for the longest time, they were all downtown.
Mary Bishop-Baldwin: As a bar owner, what do you think makes you be so
benevolent to the community and take it upon yourself to assist the community in so
many ways as you have over the years, rather than just sit back and rake in the
money and not care about who you're taking it from?
David Dees: Probably being as old as I am and experienced. Honestly, I'm like I
said, it all goes back to that deal with my mom. Honestly, with me was she? She just
showed me honestly what unconditional love was, what come, what compassion
was, and I think I kind of learned: you learn what you will put up with and you learn
what you will not put up with. You know, and so then you have to learn how to apply
that evenly across the board, and I've always I've, in running that club, it's always
been with me, what's fair is fair, and if it's fair for you, then it's fair for you. It's not, it's
just not ever been one segment was treated better than another segment. It can't be
that way. And it's also been an educational tool, like I've said many times. You know,
I I don't want to feel like somebody, oh, you have that little Trump derangement
syndrome where I say it's like a ministry. But it kind of was. It was a ministry in a
way, because it was a tool to teach people who we were.
Again, it was like: you know, look, I have hair on my arm, so do you? So do you?
Look, I believe red, so do you. You know I love, so do you. Now, who I love may be
different from who you love, but you know that was that was always….just the whole
point was: you know we're here, you know what you're, welcome. Come on in, learn
about us, have fun with us. We'll have fun with you.
Toby Jenkins: So it'd be. To recap, it would be your mother's influence made you
look out for others, and not just.
David Dees: I think absolutely that that moment with my mom was probably one of
the most incredibly pivotal moments in my life. It was. It was a huge life lesson. It's a
life lesson I never forgot.
David Dees: Dennis, do you have a question for our guests today.
Dennis Neill: Not at this time, thank you.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, I know that you are maybe not as visible at the club. Do you
want to acknowledge the people that run the place?
David Dees: Yes, I'm definitely not. I mean, I'm a couple years from 70, so I'm
definitely not as up to being up there. I definitely can't race up down the stairs like I
used to. As far as hands-on, I'm still very much hands-on behind the scenes I can. I
can assure people that I've got people in place, that they're- they're still doing what it
is I want done and running it how I want done and a lot of the things that are in
place- the, the security that's in place. That's how I want it done and I want it very
35
�visible. I want people to know that, you know we're very well aware of what's going
on out there.
Toby Jenkins: And the manager today is Chris Shoaf.
David Dees: Chris has run that for me technically for probably easily ten years, but
he was also a big part even before then.
Toby Jenkins: And he would be known to our viewers because of his activism,
work and his being a strong advocate.
David Dees: Absolutely, I I think I think people don't really realize the amount of time
and the and the things that you know, Chris… Chris can be very vocal sometimes
and I think some people are like, oh, it's a little dramatic. But I can promise you, if
there's something going on, he's the one that's out there barking. He's the dog out in
the yard in the middle of the night barking to let you know that, hey, something's
going on.
Maybe you ought to get up right.
Toby Jenkins: And that is the manager at the Majestic. I know another thing I want
to before we finish. So in a minute I'm going to ask you what we ask all of our guests:
do you have a message for the future, for young people or the people who come
after us? So in a minute I'm going to ask you for that. But I wanted you to tell a little
bit about I know you live in a house that's on wheels and live in a travel trailer motor
home, and I know you're a part of a group of LGBT people that get together.
Toby Jenkins: Yes, what's the name of that group?
David Dees: There's a couple now. There's one that's based out of Oklahoma City:
Pride in the Pines LGBT Camping, and then the greater Tulsa LGBT Camping. It
was based, you know, on eastern Oklahoma and then, of course, there's a lot of
intermingling with the members in each group.
Toby Jenkins: And kind of what is its focus.
David Dees: You get together, just get together, hang out, meet, meet, and I mean
it's just absolutely, yeah, absolutely, it's fun, that's I used to run, Dennis and John.
Their first time I ran into them camping was at Natural Falls, I believe.
Toby Jenkins: Very good. So as we finish our time together, I'm going to ask you:
do you have a message for the future, for those that come after us? Is there
something you want to say?
David Dees: Know your worth, absolutely know your worth. Don't settle for anything
less you are. I feel like I've tried to lead life by the golden rule: do unto others as you
would have them do unto you, but don't expect them to do unto you, or you're
probably going to be sorely disappointed. But you always, always, always, lead by
example, and I get it. Sometimes it's hard and sometimes you turn the cheek,
sometimes you get a few teeth knocked out, but it's just how…It's how you've got to
do it.
It reminds me of the days of Act Up, you know, and I've heard it applied to the riots
that went on with George Floyd and all this. I, you know, and I'm somebody said:
36
�well, I just don't agree with doing this and doing that. Well, I remember with Act Up, I
didn't used to like some of the things that act up did. I know why they did it, because
sometimes you have to go to that extreme to make people stop and go whoa and
and look at things and think.
Toby Jenkins: And Act Up would have been an activist group that was very visible
and involved in the 80s and some of their protests were pretty dramatic, everything
from sprinkling the ashes the cremated remains of their lovers on the lawn of the
White House, and then they had protests at the cathedrals because of their stand on
condemning condom use.
David Dees: Absolutely and like, like I said, some of them at the time. Some of
these things seem really extreme but again, sometimes you have to stop, step
outside of the box, look at what's real. What's going on? What, what is, what is the
intent here? Sometimes it looks malice, but maybe it's not.
Toby Jenkins: Our time today has been with David Dees. Any closing words, sir,
before we finish our time together?
David Dees: No, I'm happy. I touched on a lot of things that were important, I think.
And there's there's a lot of history that a lot of people don't know about.
Toby Jenkins: So when are you going to run for an elected office>
David Dees: Absolutely never.
Toby Jenkins: Well, I think you've got some campaign slogans.
David Dees: I intend to live out my the rest of my years. That's another thing that
people need to remember. Live your life happy. That's it. In the grand scheme of
things, nothing else matters. Water off a duck's back
Toby Jenkins: You've been listening to David Dees
David Dees: Preach the gospel.
Toby Jenkins: Here in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library in the Dennis
R. Neill Equality Center, the headquarters of Oklahomans for Equality and he is a
part of our history project. Thank you.
Addendum:
Given David’s initial work at Zippers, the editor has added the following for the
Zippers Facebook page established in 2016 by a group of former patrons of the bar:
ABOUT ZIPPERS
In 1975, construction began on a 6,023 square foot building on 33rd Street, just west
of South Yale Avenue in Tulsa, OK. Completed early in 1976, it originally opened as
Casino Disco, a private gambling and dancing club that did not remain open for long.
An upscale discotheque named Casablanca followed, but it too was short lived, and
was followed by yet another club named Sweetwater Station, which failed to develop
a following and also closed in a matter of months. By 1978, the building was just a
37
�little over two years old and had been home to three failed ventures--but that was
about to change.
In the Fall of 1978, John Willis with the help of an investor from a prominent Tulsa
family opened Zippers Electric Circus, a club that catered to a mostly gay clientele,
although everyone was welcome. Prior to Zippers, Willis was doing sound work at
the Old Plantation, another gay club near 51st and Yale, which shared a parking lot
with a Steak and Ale Restaurant. Willis used his knowledge and experience to
ensure that the sound system at Zippers would be the finest in the area at the time,
and it was said to be the best west of the Mississippi River.
Zippers had an intimate atmosphere, and reliably packed in patrons night after night.
Theme parties such as Fantasy in Red, Fantasy in Black, and Hollywood Nights
attracted even larger crowds, and from time to time entertainers such as Sylvester
and Pamala Stanley appeared in the club.
Zippers was a trend setter by establishing shared men's and women's rest rooms,
which often surprised first time visitors.
Zippers was a big hit, and pulled in visitors from other states. It was not unusual to
see tags from five or more states on cars in the parking lot. After 10 years, Willis
opened a new club named Strokes in the Brookside area of Tulsa, and closed
Zippers, ending an era that had to be experienced to be understood, and one that
created many friendships and fond memories for everyone fortunate enough to have
been a part of it.
John Willis passed away in 1993, but he and the establishment he envisioned and
created lives on today in the memories of many.
This group is dedicated to John Willis, the staff at Zippers who greeted all who
entered, poured their drinks, mixed the music, cleaned up the mess, and to everyone
who came to dance, drink, and made Zippers a part of their lives from 1978 to 1987.
38
�
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Title
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[Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
<strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong>
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Title
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[2026] David Dees Interview
Subject
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Donald Dees Oral History Project Interview from April 21, 2026
Creator
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David Dees, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill
Date
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April 21, 2026
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This interview with David Dees offers a deep dive into the history of LGBTQ+ community life in Tulsa, including early club culture, personal experiences with family acceptance, and the evolution of Pride events. It provides valuable insights into the challenges and resilience of the community over decades. Join us for an in-depth interview with David Dees as he shares his experiences and insights from decades of activism, community organizing, and the history of LGBTQ+ life in Tulsa. Discover stories of community resilience, the fight against AIDS, and the importance of education and inclusion.
2026
AIDS
AIDS/HIV
David Dees
Dennis Neill
Dennis R. Neill
HIV/AIDs
interview
LGBT history
OKEQ Oral History Project
oral history
oral history interview
Oral History Project
oral history transcript
Pride
Toby Jenkins
transcript
video
-
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/80148d6fd82c4fb1120d20b177a365f9.pdf
225665e18ebba2395a66e636d13cdc2b
PDF Text
Text
Oklahomans for Equality
Oral History Interview
with
Dr. Frances Fae Haas
Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins
Date: May 5, 2026
Transcribed and Edited By: Mary Bishop-Baldwin using
Reduct.Video AI
Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A
Oklahomans for Equality
History Project
621 E. 4th Street
Tulsa, OK. 74120
918.743.4297
historyproject@okeq.org
1
�About Dr. Haas:
Summary
In this in-depth interview, Dr. Frances Haas shares her remarkable journey from a
small-town girl to a pioneering physician serving the LGBTQ community, including
HIV/AIDS patients and transgender individuals. She discusses her career, medical
insights, advocacy, and the evolving landscape of gender-af rming care.
Keywords
LGBTQ healthcare, HIV/AIDS, transgender medicine, medical advocacy, Oklahoma
healthcare, gender-af rming care, HIV research, medical history, community activism
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Dr. Frances Haas
01:32 Early Life and Education
05:23 Career Beginnings in Nursing
09:19 Journey to Medical School
11:26 First Encounters with HIV Patients
14:07 Stigma and Challenges in HIV Care
15:24 Medical School and Specialization
19:10 Establishing an HIV Practice
21:12 Advancements in HIV Treatment
23:12 Caring for Transgender Patients
26:21 Evolving Patient Demographics
28:34 Insurance Challenges in Transgender Care
30:36 The Journey to Gender Af rming Care
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�32:59 Navigating Treatment for Minors
36:48 Understanding Transgender Rights and Public Perception
40:07 The Intersection of HIV and Transgender Health
44:07 Community Engagement and Activism
47:47 Ethics of HIV Disclosure
51:05 The Future of HIV Treatment and Education
56:00 Personal Re ections and Family Dynamics
01:03:02 Messages for Future Generations
Dr. Frances Haas Oral History Interview May 5, 2026
Toby Jenkins: Thank you for joining us today. It is May 5th, 2026, here at the
Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, the headquarters of Oklahomans for Equality, and
we are in the Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library, and you're here for a
History Project interview. Today our special guest is Frances Haas. Could you give
us your name – your full name?
Dr. Frances Haas: Frances Fae Haas.
Toby Jenkins: Frances Fae Haas. Never knew the middle name. I love it. And she
will be with us today. We refer to her as Dr. Haas or Miracle Worker, but we also
have Dennis Neill, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, with us today, and Mary
Bishop-Baldwin here, a part of the History Archives, and I'm Toby Jenkins conducting
the interview. Frances, or Dr. Haas, I'm going to call you Dr. Haas because that's the
thing I'm most comfortable with, if that's all right?
Dr. Frances Haas: That's ne, either one.
Toby Jenkins: So I want to know, we're going to talk about your career in medicine
and serving speci cally the LGBTQ community, but I want to nd out a little bit about,
you know, how you became Frances Haas, Dr. Frances Haas. Where were you
born?
Dr. Frances Haas: I was born in Evansville, Indiana. I'm from the little town of
Boonville, Indiana, in the southwest corner of Indiana.
Toby Jenkins: And was that a big metropolis, or was that a little bitty town?
Dr. Frances Haas: Evansville is a small city. Boonville is about 5-6,000 people.
Toby Jenkins: And what was your family like? I mean, what did your father do?
Dr. Frances Haas: My father was a mechanic. My mother was a telephone operator.
I have an older half-sister, and I have a younger full sister.
Toby Jenkins: All right. And did you graduate from there?
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�Toby Jenkins: Where at in western Missouri?
Dr. Frances Haas: Milo is the name of the little town, but it's kind of close to Nevada
and Eldorado Springs. I graduated from Eldorado Springs.
Toby Jenkins: Well, that's beautiful country. I know that well. Just curious, what
were some of the things that you were interested in when you were a kid or a
teenager?
Dr. Frances Haas: When I was a kid, I liked a lot of crafts. I was not a girl who
played with dolls. You know, I liked plants. I mean, I planted beans out of mom's
cupboard and everything. I experimented on plants. I had a mother-in-law's tongue,
and I did surgery on it. But they thought I'd probably be something like a botanist or
something. And then when we moved to the farm in Missouri, I discovered I liked
cows. And so my major when I went off to college was pre-ag.
Toby Jenkins: So when you were in high school, were you real good in math and
science? I mean, did you have an aptitude for that?
Dr. Frances Haas: I was good in the rst two years. You know, I had two years of
algebra, two years of Latin, and I did well in school. But it was a bad home life. My
rst stepfather was very abusive. There was sexual abuse involved. And so I
switched to business. It was just a chaotic, chaotic life.
Toby Jenkins: And so you went off to—you graduated from—
Dr. Frances Haas: Eldorado Springs High School.
Toby Jenkins: And then where did you go to college?
Dr. Frances Haas: I went to Missouri Southern in Joplin in pre-ag. My mother picked
where I would go. I didn't have any choice in the matter. And after one year of
college, I went home for the summer. My rst stepfather was an alcoholic. He'd
gotten pretty violent and all. Actually, my little sister and I got kicked out at 18. She
was 17. And so we went down to Joplin, stayed at the YWCA. And I got myself a job
as a nurse aide in the nursing home. And she got a job at the stockyard in the
restaurant as a waitress. Igot myself enrolled in nursing school because I thought a
nurse aide—an RN, was a nurse aide who made more money. And then—
Toby Jenkins: And that was at school there?
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, and got my little sister enrolled. Our father had died when
I was 15, so we had some Social Security and VA coming in. It was $146 or less
during the period, but I made it through college on that. Missouri Southern was one
of the 10 cheapest universities in the United States.
Toby Jenkins: And so what years would this have been?
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Dr. Frances Haas: No. My father was a binge alcoholic, and my mom divorced him
when I was a freshman in high school and remarried her rst husband, who was my
half-sister's father. We moved to western Missouri to a farm.
�Dr. Frances Haas: Let's see, I started college in 1969, and then 1970 to 1972, I
have an associate of science degree in nursing in ’72. Then I started work as a
nurse at the osteopathic hospital in Joplin, Oak Hill. They had medical students start
coming in. I never dreamed of being a doctor, never, ever, ever. I was afraid of the
doctors, but the medical students were only a few years older than me, and I wasn't
afraid of them. So that's when I decided, well, I want to be a doctor, and started
taking the pre-med subjects. At that time, a lot of times, I was the only RN in the
hospital, and there were no doctors there, so you were just kind of, it was about 100
beds. We're talking about the early ’70s.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so this would have been at the osteopathic hospital?
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, in Joplin.
Toby Jenkins: And is that where you went to medical school for your degree, was
osteopath college?
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. I took my pre-med subjects there and was
interviewing, I interviewed here at OSU medical school program and in an
osteopathic school in West Virginia, but I wasn't getting any encouragement. My
mother was very much against me going to medical school because she thought that
they would force her to pay for it. My brother-in-law, who was a psychiatrist, didn't
encourage me to go. I found out later, the reason was that he realized with my
personality, my patients would be richer than me, and he's probably right. But
anyhow, he was very supportive later. So I gave up the dream, and I moved back to
Indiana. That was in 1979. I worked at the local hospital there, and I was assistant
director of nursing, an ICU head nurse, and did medical staff quality assurance and
utilization review. I told a physician friend who was an osteopath that the decision I
regretted most in life was not going to medical school and I was too old, and he says,
“I don't think you're too old.” He took me back to his of ce, got me out the American
Osteopathic Association Directory, and showed me where they had the schools and
all. So I started applying. I don't even have a bachelor's degree. I have an associate
degree in science. So I started applying. I had excellent references, even one from
the nun head of our hospital. My grades were – some of them weren't so good, and
some of them were superb, depending on how much I was partying when I was
younger, because I did like to party. I was out of pre-med by about 10 years, and so I
applied, and you get turned down and everything. It's discouraging, but I kept
applying. And I was at Mass one Sunday, and we were standing up doing the
responses that they do in the Catholic Church. I remember the sun shining in, and
God said, “Take care of people with HIV.” And that's where it came from.
Toby Jenkins: Wow.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, and I just knew at that point, I'm gonna get in. Just keep
trying, and whatever you do, help people with HIV. So then I did get in. I was an
alternate; I almost didn't get to go. I missed all of orientation.
Toby Jenkins: And what year would that have been?
Dr. Frances Haas: 1991.
Toby Jenkins: 1991.
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�Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. I missed all of orientation, because they called when I had
been down in Mexico visiting. I had a foreign exchange student. I'd been down in
Mexico visiting them, and came back on Amtrak, and got home about eight in the
morning. That afternoon, I got a telephone call from Kansas City University, which is
the one I wanted to go to the most. I'd had an interview there, I was an alternate. But
I didn't think I was gonna get to go, because it was time for school to start. They said,
“We have an opening. Can you come?” And I said, “Yes.” And I said, “When do you
want me there?” They said as soon as you can get here. So that was a Tuesday
afternoon. Wednesday, I went in and quit my job. Actually, the university had called
my work, trying to nd me, because they were trying to get ahold of me, and they
couldn't, so they called my place of employment. So theyToby Jenkins: And that was in Indiana?
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, so they all knew. They got together a going-away party for
me, bought me an otoscope and a ophthalmoscope and everything. Then I had to
go to Evansville to get a pair of glasses, because I'd lost mine on the trip, and I was
blind as a bat, and then pack my car. Thursday I drove 500 miles to Kansas City.
Friday I enrolled at the school and had my physical in the dean's of ce and started
school on Monday.
Toby Jenkins: Wow.
Dr. Frances Haas: And it was hard that rst year. I remember I struggled.
Toby Jenkins: And how old were you?
Dr. Frances Haas: I was 39 when I was accepted, and I wasn't even the oldest
woman.
Toby Jenkins: And that would have been 1991?
Dr. Frances Haas: Uh-huh, yeah.
Toby Jenkins: And were you partnered at this time? Were you married?
Dr. Frances Haas: No, no.
Toby Jenkins: So you were single.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah.
Toby Jenkins: And you had been working in Indiana.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: In nursing.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: And so you'd had this religious experience where you felt like you
were called to do this.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah.
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�Dr. Frances Haas: I think my rst exposure to an HIV patient was when I worked for
about six months out at Stanford University in California. And there was a young man
brought in to our unit. It was a med-surg unit. And they said he was from San
Francisco and that he was gay. I remember him as being very thin, and he had
lymphoma of the brain. This was probably about 1975, 1976. This is before HIV was
there. When I was out at Stanford, we used double doses of antibiotics. If it said
every six hours, we were giving it every four on these patients that were being
transferred in. But that one young man I'm pretty sure had HIV. It just was not
recognized at that point. At that point, we didn't use gloves. I've had so many needle
points – needle sticks – as a nurse that I can't – I lost count. So there but for the
grace of God go I. But I can remember that young man and him dying and all with
brain lymphoma.
Toby Jenkins: So when did you begin to, like as a nurse, there in your work in
Indiana.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: You lived, you were right in the middle of nursing.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: When HIV and AIDS had made it to the middle of the heartland.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. There was a patient brought into our little hospital. We
weren't a big hospital. And it was the son of our unit clerk. Actually at one time, he'd
been my orderly and then he'd gone off to the military and come back. He had a
respiratory illness and there was talk going around. This was in the ’80s. So there
was a lot of fear and everything. And I remember I did medical staff quality
assurance at the time and the respiratory therapist was pushing me to have him
checked for PCP pneumonia. I pushed back against it because he was getting
treatment for it. I know the physician doing it didn't want that de nite diagnosis out
there but he was treating appropriately for it. Because you're in a small town, and
there is stigma. His mom worked there and all. I don't know if that young man is still
alive or not. But that was probably the rst known HIV patient I took care of. He
came in later, and we learned he had HIV.
Toby Jenkins: So during the late ’80s, before you went into medical school, and you
were working in hospital settings, a clinic, did you see a lot of stigma associated with
people who possibly were HIV positive?
Dr. Frances Haas: Some. Some. Actually, our hospital administrator from the
Daughters of Charity, a little nun, she suggested – the little hospital was having
problems nancially – and she suggested making the top oor into an HIV unit.
There was some ack about that. What it turned out to be was an alcohol detox
rehab unit. They screamed about that because the obstetric unit was up on the third
oor. The fear was those druggies are going to go in and kill the babies, which of
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Toby Jenkins: And had you already as a nurse in the hospitals there been working
with HIV patients?
�course didn't happen. But I always thought this little nun was ahead of her time. She
was actually one of my references for medical school.
Toby Jenkins: So you go to medical school in Kansas City, and did you specialize in
infectious diseases?
Dr. Frances Haas: No. I did medical school, and then I was going to do my
internship in Joplin, because my mentor was there. My mentor is a cardiologist, and
he trained me as a nurse. He trained me as an ICU nurse, and he did training of me
as a medical student. But they had a hostile merger going on with Freeman Hospital.
The FTC got called in on that, and the head of the program said this is probably not
a good place for you to get an education. What about Tulsa? I said that's ne. Well, it
turned out that the rst medical student I ever met, Dan Fieker, was the head of
Tulsa Regional Medical Center. I didn't interview or anything, just called. He
remembered me, and I was accepted in.
Toby Jenkins: So what year did you move to Tulsa?
Dr. Frances Haas: 1995. I did a year internship, because I didn't know if I wanted to
do internal medicine, family medicine, or surgery. And so during that year, Dr. Tom
Stees was head of the internal medicine program. I really liked him, even though
he's tough as hell. But I mean, if you're going to go to school and you're going to pay
that kind of money and all, you want the best. And you don't want an easy program;
you want a hard program. And so I decided to do internal medicine.
Toby Jenkins: And that would have been through OSU?
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, that was from ’96 to ’99.
Toby Jenkins: And OSU hospital would have been called Tulsa Regional Medical
Center.
Dr. Frances Haas: And then Dr. Beal had the – what's the special program for HIV
– it's the Ryan White program. They had the funding for that, but OSU got the
program.
Toby Jenkins: And what year would that have been?
Dr. Frances Haas: ’96. And I can remember, I was so upset, because I was so
excited, because I knew I wanted to do HIV at that time.
Toby Jenkins: Well, yeah, you'd heard from God.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. And they were going to have residents, and then I can
remember Dr. Stees saying that they’d decided the rst-year internal medicine
residents couldn't do it. I remember I'd let out a profanity in front of him. I still
remember the stunned look on his face. But then, so the second and third year I did
the clinic. I was the only resident who liked the HIV clinic.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. Were there several coming in, in Tulsa?
Dr. Frances Haas: Several?
Toby Jenkins: In the clinic? Were there several patients?
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�Toby Jenkins: And this would have been, through what we call today the OSU
Clinic, it would have been – I can't remember what it was called in those early days.
Dr. Frances Haas: The Ryan White Clinic.
Toby Jenkins: Oh, it was called, okay.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. And I guess the part I didn't like about it was people didn't
know a lot. And that “ the best regimen was Crixivan-Combivir”. Well, Crixivan, I
mean, yeah, it may be the best medicine, but it's hell to take. It was every eight
hours on an empty stomach. You know patients are skipping doses. It gave you
nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. It sucked as a regimen, even though it's “the best.”
So that was a problem. And then Dr. Baker, who was in charge of the Ryan White
Clinic, told me that Dr. (Jeffrey) Beal was wanting to move to Florida, and his clinic
was up for sale. So that's how that came about.
Toby Jenkins: I did not know that. So you purchased his practice.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. And so he had the old timers in there. And that's when I
learned that it may not be the best regimen, but you get a regimen that patient will
take faithfully. That's the most important thing is they take it consistently. Because we
had what we called Florida-itis: They'd go on vacation, they'd conveniently forget
their medicine because, by God, it made them feel like shit. And so you learn to
nesse some of the meds so the patients will take them faithfully.
Toby Jenkins: Now this medication that you were giving in this time, did it suppress
the HIV virus? Or was this prior to the actual effective regimens that we found?
Dr. Frances Haas: It suppressed the virus, but you had the side effects, and it made
it dif cult to take.
Toby Jenkins: And so when you got your practice, they had found the medication
that kept people alive.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, Dr. Beal was doing studies, and I never ever thought that I
would be doing medical studies, but that was part of the practice I bought. And so I
learned to do those, and you got used to nessing, working with meds. It also
brought in meds to the Midwest that were not available, except to those on the East
Coast, West Coast, and Florida.
Toby Jenkins: Because you were doing the research.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. So they came in two, three years earlier than would
have been expected, and that led to some of these old-timers still out there because
they got started on those regimens.
Toby Jenkins: So when you're referring to old-timers, you're referring to lifers who
lived with the virus.
Dr. Frances Haas: 70s and 80s, yeah, that affected them.
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Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
�Toby Jenkins: All right, thank you. And that would have been what year that you
started doing the research?
Dr. Frances Haas: I started in Dr. Beal's practice July 1999, and then he left January
1st, 2000.
Toby Jenkins: So the medication that is helping the patients live and suppress the
virus, did you begin to see a dramatic drop in deaths?
Dr. Frances Haas: Over the years, yeah. You still, I found that you could suppress
the HIV virus, but if you had hepatitis C, that went and killed them. So I started doing
hepatitis C studies. With every death I tried to learn on. Like a patient that had
pneumococcal pneumonia: I gave them the vaccine. Why didn't it protect them?
Well, they got the vaccine when their T-cell count was less than 200. So I found that
when I got their T-cell count above 200, I repeat that vaccine because their body was
unable to react to the vaccine initially. I hated losing patients, but you're going to, but
it's like, try to learn.
Toby Jenkins: So was your practice mostly infectious disease, or did you, were you
a –?
Dr. Frances Haas: It's a mix.
Toby Jenkins: You were a general physician. So you were treating all the other
stuff.
Dr. Frances Haas: I'm an internal medicine physician who has a special interest in
hepatitis C and HIV, HIV rst. Then hepatitis C. The transgender population, I didn't
know I was getting into that. I had had no training in it, though we did have a, we
were going to have a noontime meeting in med school with somebody who was
transgendered, but it got canceled, so I never got to do that. So I can still remember
the rst transgender patient that Dr. Beal introduced me to and all. And then –.
Toby Jenkins: And what year was that?
Dr. Frances Haas: 1999.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Dr. Frances Haas: And I'm Facebook friends with her. And you probably know her.
Toby Jenkins: Well, I have a question.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: On your patient load, about how many people in Tulsa at that time
that you had a part of your practice, about how many patients did you have who
were living with HIV/AIDS?
Dr. Frances Haas: You know, I don't know.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
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�Toby Jenkins: Yeah, because, I can remember when I got heavily involved here at
the Equality Center, one of the persistent phone calls we had on the helpline, and
just people reaching out to us, people were, it was dif cult to nd a doctor.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Who would, and usually it was from somebody who had just recently
tested HIV positive, or, anyway, they were, that was a consistent call. And you were
one of the few doctors we had that was still taking patients.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. And a problem with the Ryan White Clinic at that
time was they had a long wait of time to get in. Those people were scared. So, you
know, they, I got a lot of those patients who –.
Toby Jenkins: So they were scared because they'd been recently diagnosed?
Dr. Frances Haas: Diagnosed, yeah. And they had a –.
Toby Jenkins: And they needed to get on the –.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, a three-month waiting period to get into the Ryan White
Program. Now, I think that has changed now.
Toby Jenkins: Right, and so, individuals who had been recently diagnosed were
being told probably – this would have been into the early 2000s – were being told if
they could get on medication and treatment, it would keep them from having fullblown AIDS.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: So it was a frightening diagnosis.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: And then realize you're on a ticking time bomb to make sure you get
ahead of the disease.
Dr. Frances Haas: And I think the studies we did also helped because a lot of them
went on to studies. You got personalized care. I mean, you had a lot of hand-holding
by my nurses and education and all – more so than the regular patient.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Dr. Frances Haas: And I think it gave you lifelong adherence. You know, it gave
them an edge. It's like you had your own tutor in school, your own personal tutor.
And so, you know, that basis was there for the rest of their life, for the old timers.
Toby Jenkins: So, you mentioned earlier that you didn't realize that you were going
to have a practice that included the care of transgender individuals. When did you
rst start having transgender patients who were looking for gender-af rming care?
Dr. Frances Haas: Well, I inherited those from Dr. Beal's practice.
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Dr. Frances Haas: I don't know. And, you know, there are the old timers, and then I
started getting newer ones, too.
�Toby Jenkins: So he had a few.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Because he was one of the few doctors who did it.
And the patients did a lot of teaching of me. I mean, they had more time than I did to
read. They educated me a lot.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. Do you have any idea when that you began to see, not just the
ones you inherited, but new referrals?
Dr. Frances Haas: Like 2000.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. Wow. You would have been one of the few doctors in town.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. And one of the things I noticed over the years, initially, a lot
of my patients, I knew once they were in their, usually late 30s, early 40s, as the
years went by, I had started having parents bringing in their high school students.
And that was de nitely a change. Probably around 2005, 2006, that had started,
where the younger people, and it was because they recognized it. They didn't,
people, the kids knew they were different, but they didn't know what it was. And
being heterosexual, as one patient from Owasso told me, she says, “I hung out with
the lesbians,” but she never, she says, “I never felt that it was right.” And she was
transgender, female to male.
Toby Jenkins: So female to male.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Dr. Frances Haas: And there's de nitely a difference.
Toby Jenkins: Right. So you're doing infectious disease, caregiving, and gender
af rming care for transgender persons and gender-expansive persons. I'm trying to
make sure I'm using all the current terminology.
Dr. Frances Haas: I haven't heard gender-expansive.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So did you have any battles with health insurance companies
not wanting to cover certain treatments for all of your populations?
Dr. Frances Haas: A lot of times they did not cover the hormones.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. I'm not sure about the of ce visits and all. My of ce
manager, you know, could probably tell you that.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Dr. Frances Haas: But yeah, the hormones, and we would look, you know, trying to
see where we could get the cheapest hormones, you know, what drugstore.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Dr. Frances Haas: And at that time there could be a lot of...
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�Toby Jenkins: Did you see an increase of this? I mean, did you begin to see more
and more and more because people, they, well, insurance companies being more
favorable, but also patients by word of mouth, them telling other individuals? Okay.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, because for several years you were where we referred people,
you and just a handful of other doctors.
Dr. Frances Haas: And I was glad to see the younger people coming in because
cosmetic results were much better. The transition to the appearance of the other
improved.
Toby Jenkins: Right. Made them more passable and less con ict with presentation.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. It's amazing. I'd be there sitting with the patient. We'd be
talking about their blood pressure, cholesterol, and something would come up and
they would remind me of their biological sex because I get, you know, I'd be talking
about prostate and they were a biological female. And, uh, they, they would remind
me because they transitioned so well that, you know, you just, you know, they look
like a man.
Toby Jenkins: So these would have been individuals who were post-surgery. They
had... Where did you refer people for surgical?
Dr. Frances Haas: Initially, Stanley Biber out in Trinidad, Colorado. I even went out
and met him.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Dr. Frances Haas: He's a nice old guy. And then, um, Darcy? Marcy?
Toby Jenkins: Dr. Marci Bowers.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Yeah. And then her. And then there was a group down in
the Dallas area. Uh, I can't remember their names anymore, that, that did a lot of it.
And of course, initially, most people went to (Dr.) Biber or Thailand. A lot of people
went to Thailand, and I thought, why Thailand? That didn't seem right. But I learned
that they were more accepting of gender identity disorder, and some of their
physicians had specialized in that.
Toby Jenkins: And also, they were more affordable.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, true.
Dennis Neill: Right. Dr. Haas, were you a sole practitioner?
Dr. Frances Haas: Yes.
Dennis Neill: Did you have any issues staf ng your clinic, given the clientele?
Dr. Frances Haas: Not really staf ng it. I did hear a horror story from Dr. Beal about
his of ce before I got there. I guess they were having new carpeting put in, and the
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�guys came in and did it, and when they found out that it was an HIV practice, they
didn't come back after lunch. And Dr. Beal could tell you a lot of stories about that.
Dennis Neill: And then how about – you mentioned your service to adolescents
looking at the transition. Were you also working with puberty blockers prior to
hormones? So at what age do you see the appropriate transition from blockers to
actual hormone therapy?
Dr. Frances Haas: Usually, most of the patients who were coming in to me were
probably around 16, 17. And I always made sure that they had a psychiatric
evaluation before, because there were a few patients that's like, “I think you're
crazy,” but they were patients that had gotten into the system. And they always had
to bring a parent in with them. So that was part of it.
Toby Jenkins: Now, did you start them on puberty blockers at 16 or 17, or did you
go ahead and start them on hormones? Because at 16 or 17, several of them had
already begun to –.
Dr. Frances Haas: Most of them were coming at that age, so I just started them on
hormones. They were kind of a little bit older.
Toby Jenkins: And so in your research and your work, just curious if you're
comfortable, there's such a debate around it right now, and, of course, Oklahoma is
restricting care for minors. Your medical opinion, if you're comfortable telling us, do
you have any concerns about the treatment of minors or puberty blockers, or do you
feel like Oklahoma's made a huge mistake?
Dr. Frances Haas: I think they've made a mistake in some areas. I'm okay with the
hormones and puberty blockers, because if you stop them, you can usually reverse.
There's some questions about fertility issues and all that. But what I am adamantly
against is surgery before the age of 18. And I might even go older than that, because
I've had some patients who are transgender, and then as I follow them, they had
surgery. And later it's like, well, I've met this person, and it's like it's irreversible.
Surgery's irreversible. The puberty blockers and hormones are not, you know. They
can be reversed as a rule, but surgery you cannot. And so young people can get
mixed up, and they can get confused. And, you know, I'm not the same person I was
when I was that age.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Dr. Frances Haas: And so I am de nitely against the surgery. I might make
exceptions for somebody who's got the characteristics of both sexes.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Dr. Frances Haas: But those are not very common.
Toby Jenkins: Right. Okay.
Dr. Frances Haas: And I know I'm probably going to make some enemies with that.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, well, but you're a medical doctor. We want your opinion. We
want your position on this.
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�Dr. Frances Haas: It's irreversible, and that's why.
Toby Jenkins: So you're saying medical procedures for people who are intersex,
who have some ambiguity about the genitalia. Okay. But you de nitely support
parents and the physicians being able to prescribe puberty blockers and even some
hormone therapies prior to 18.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. Did you nd that parents came well-informed, or were they
aggressive with you, demanding that you do this? I mean –
Dr. Frances Haas: The patients, they came well-informed. They'd studied, and it
was, uh, “I need help.” I didn't, I don't think I had any aggressive parents. I would
occasionally get some aggressive patients who was like, “This is what I want,” and I
didn't always agree with them. But they were usually in their 20s or 30s. But the
parents, no, it's just like, “Help my kid.” You know, “I want what's best for my kid.”
Toby Jenkins: So, um, while you've practiced in Oklahoma, and you've done
research on a couple of different areas of specialties, um, has it been dif cult to see
sometimes there'd be so much friction from the state Capitol trying to, um –
Dr. Frances Haas: I don't understand it. It's like, a, as an example, a transgender
person, female to male, could look like you. And I don't want a biological female
who's transgendered to a male with a big beard and looks like a guy who's going to
rape me in the bathroom with me. I'm sorry. But I have no problems with, say, a male
to a female who looks female and everything. You know, it's appearance.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Dr. Frances Haas: And it would be dangerous for somebody who looks female,
who's a biological male, to go into a male restroom. Vice versa for a male to, or a
female to a male who looks male who goes, is required to go into a female restroom.
It's going to freak, you know, women out, and especially if they've got their young
kids and everything. And I don't think the legislators understand that. I really wonder
if they should have an organized group that goes into the Legislature bathrooms and
all and says, you know, here's my paperwork. I'm a biological female. You know,
that's what, but I'm required to go into this, you know, female restroom. I'm sorry I
look like a male, you know.
Toby Jenkins: So you feel like the focus is too much on males to females who
present as female but may be biologically male, and they're ignoring the fact that
there are trans females who, or trans males who were born female and have
transitioned and identify and present as male, and you feel like they're too focused
on the gender speci cs.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah, and not the appearance.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. Is that what's driving, is people's rejection of people, is that
what's driving the political animus towards –?
Dr. Frances Haas: I think part of it is the politicians, and of course it diverts from
other subjects, but I don't think they understand. They don't, they don't understand.
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�It's like when I would be on an airplane taking a trip, sitting next to somebody, and
we'd start, you know, talking, I would tell them all, bring up about my HIV and tell
them, you know, that I did that, and they'd start asking questions. It was a time to
educate, and we need the same thing for the transgender, for them to educate, and
maybe trying to meet one-on-one, you know, with legislators and say, you know, I'm
a biological female, but they, you know, look de nitely male. And we don't want
confrontation. We just want to educate.
Toby Jenkins: So, I guess, is it overstating it by saying, obviously what's driving it at
the statehouse, the politics, is not good medical science; it's not science; it's just
personal animus and bigotry and targeting a speci c community who you don't
understand.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, they don't understand it. And I have to say, you know, I
didn't understand it. You know, there's a difference between being homosexual and
transgender.
Toby Jenkins: Right. One's sexual orientation, one is sexual identity.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. A lot of my transgender patients say that they were a
male who wanted to transition to female. They look at their penis and their testicles
as foreign masses. I mean, they're foreign objects, you know. It's like they're gross.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, very gender dysphoric.
Dr. Frances Haas: And my female-to-male looked at the breasts as, oh, my God,
you know, and they didn't like them. And I thought one interesting thing on my young
people when they come in, female-to-male, and I, you know, would ask them what
their bra size was, you know, cup size. And most of the time, they had no idea. A
biological female usually knows, “I'm a B cup.” “I'm a D cup.” I mean, you're proud of
it. Them, they didn't know, and their parent or a friend would speak up and say, “I
think they're about a C cup.” But they never knew because they're binding their
breasts. They're hiding them, because to them, they're gross. They're tumors. And I
always thought that was an interesting thing.
Toby Jenkins: Were all of your transgender patients, by the time they got to you,
had they already been seeking counseling and therapy?
Dr. Frances Haas: I required them to have counsel and get a referral from a
psychiatrist or therapist. Because some of those that I got from Dr. Beale were, it's
like I wasn't comfortable with it. And I also reserved, even if I got a psychiatric
referral, if it didn't seem right to me, I would refuse to treat. But that only happened
once. I checked with the counselor who referred, who was well-versed in it. And she
says, “I agree with you.” She says, “But I went through all the testing. And they kind
of aced all the questions and everything. But it just didn't, my gut instinct says, “I'm
not sure this is right.” And so I went with my gut instinct, and I just declined to treat.
Toby Jenkins: So as a physician, I mean, obviously, you want what's best for your
patients. So did you have to, even for people living with HIV-AIDS, or just your other
patients, did you have to make medical counsel decisions when your patient wanting
something that you questioned whether it was good for them?
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�Toby Jenkins: So I know over the years, while you've been focused on your patients
and your care, you've also kind of been a community activist. I can remember the
rst time I met you, it was at the AIDS walk, the annual AIDS walk that we would
have in October. And it would be a gathering of the community to raise funds, usually
for the Ryan White Clinic and Tulsa Cares. And usually, the money we raised went to
those agencies. And that was the rst time I met you. You really stood out. There
was a halo around you that said “Dr. Haas.” No, it wasn't that. What made you stand
out is here was this little bitty, tiny lady with these massive dogs. And what kind of
dogs are those?
Dr. Frances Haas: Great Danes.
Toby Jenkins: Great Danes. And they were huge. And you were so tiny. And we
would do the AIDS walk, which usually was maybe a mile walk. I mean, it was just
strictly for fun. But it was to raise funds. Did you enjoy those kind of social
interactions?
Dr. Frances Haas: I did.
Toby Jenkins: You do realize that you added real legitimacy to this when a medical
provider was out there? Because most of the time, it was just people from our
community, individuals who were living with HIV, and their friends, and their family,
and maybe their faith communities. But when the medical providers were there, there
was a certain amount of, y'all were going the extra mile. You weren't only treating
them. You were ghting for public awareness.
Dr. Frances Haas: Well, I think part of that, I'm an osteopathic physician. We treat
the whole patient. It's like if the patient can't get the medicine, I need to gure out
how I can get the medicine for them. You know, you treat the whole body. It's not just
the physical body; it's the mental component, spiritual, any, the monetary, you know,
as much as you can. It's treating, you know, the holistic approach. And that's part of
it, is being part of the community. And the osteopathic profession actually looks for
their medical students. They look at the ones who have been involved. And like, you
know, part of my references when I got in, it helped me to get in because my MCAT
scores weren't that great. Like I said, some of my grades were good, superb, and
some of them weren't so good. But I was active in politics, I was active in church, I
was a Jaycee, active in different work things.
Toby Jenkins: So your approach, even back when you were nursing, has been a
community, you understood the value of community and alliances and resources. I
know that there have been many times you've weighed in on negative bills that were
being introduced by the Legislature. I want to ask speci cally about a particular bill.
Back several years ago, Oklahomans for Equality was trying to advocate for a bill
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fi
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Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, and that was tough. Some have noticed, and I've seen this
with other physicians, as well, when the patient doesn't get what they want, they go
and report you on Health Grades. Look at the referrals. It's usually somebody that's
like, “They didn't give me my pain medicine.” That's a common one. But I've had
patients, I didn't give them the hormones that they wanted. And some of them can
get kind of far out there. The minority, by far. But majority of them were, you know,
great.
�that would not criminalize HIV people for infecting somebody else. And you and I had
a big discussion about that, and I'd like to just know your thoughts about that.
Criminalization of HIV people is people who knowingly try to infect someone or they
don't tell somebody their status and put that person at risk. Now, that discussion was
a much larger discussion probably prior to the development of PrEP and PEP and
the pre-exposure prophylaxis treatments that are so common now with people living
with HIV where the medication almost makes them non-transmittable. Their viral load
is undetectable and they're not transmittable. You saw all that develop, so just give
us your thoughts on intentionally HIV infecting somebody and the disease.
Dr. Frances Haas: I think if you know that you're HIV, you have the responsibility to
tell the person that you're going to have a sexual relationship with that you are, and
taking precautions. I mean, it's just the right thing to do. Follow the Golden Rule. Do
unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you don't know that you're
infected, and that can happen, and you accidentally infect somebody, that to me is
not a crime. But going out and, in fact, knowing you have it and going out and doing
it. And I've had patients tell me horror stories I heard. One guy told me about how he
and his drug abuse group, you know, stay off drugs, how he purposely slept with
every woman in the group. You know, I had another patient who, the guy she was
seeing, they were using a condom, and she didn't know that he was HIV, but he was
putting a pinhole in on, which she went and checked him, and he had infected her. I
had another one who knew he was positive who infected one of my transgender
patients. And, you know, a teenager. I had another teenager who, you know, and I
always wondered, you know, got infected, gave blood and found out they were
infected. And I asked them who did it, and they said somebody at school, but I
always worried that he lied to me. And then it was, you know, because I've got to
report that stuff. If it's, you know, if an adult would have sexual relationships with a
female, or with a...
Toby Jenkins: Minor.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Right.
Dr. Frances Haas: So I've always wondered about that.
Toby Jenkins: And you've kind of seen it all, haven't you?
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah.
Toby Jenkins: And so if I understand you, your position is if you know your status,
you should be responsible and make sure that you protect others.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Dr. Frances Haas: It's just the right thing to do. Because you wouldn't, I don't think if
you knew you were positive and you went out and infected somebody, it just seems
so wrong and mean and sel sh.
Toby Jenkins: And irresponsible.
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18
�Dr. Frances Haas: And irresponsible. And, you know, now we've got the preventive,
so that really helps.
Toby Jenkins: But do you feel like there's almost an attitude? I don't know if you still
are, you still practicing?
Dr. Frances Haas: No.
Toby Jenkins: It does feel like among our culture there is almost a, especially for
individuals who are living with HIV that are undetectable and non-transmittable. It
does feel like we have such a culture of casualness about it now because everybody
just assumes that everybody's on PrEP- the pre-exposure prophylaxis- that
everybody's on PrEP and that you don't have a responsibility to be transparent. It
concerns me because, you know, I lived through the time when silence was death,
and where it seems like right now we're in a real precipitous place because even the
federal government is restricting funding for HIV treatment and HIV education and
organizations and medical services are struggling to nd nancial support. I mean
there are documented situations where some states have already begun. They've
kicked off thousands of patients who are getting their treatments, and they're telling
them they’re going to have to go nd medication someplace else.
Dr. Frances Haas: I hope that their providers are going to some of the programs that
the pharmaceutical companies have. I usually get down on pharmaceutical
companies, but the ones with the HIV were wonderful. I mean, when I had problems
getting meds for a patient, I would call up my rep, and they helped me a lot to get my
meds that I needed for my patients.
Dennis Neill: With regard to your clinic, when you decided to retire, where did your
patients go, particularly those that were HIV or trans?
Dr. Frances Haas: The ones that were trans went to a provider- and I can't
remember their name, but it's over in the- who is a nurse practitioner or PA. You
probably know who I mean.
Toby Jenkins: Diversity Clinic.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, and then some of them went to the Ryan White. There was
another local doctor that some of them went to.
Dennis Neill: So you feel like there is enough capacity in our community to address
these clients?
Dr. Frances Haas: I don't know.
Dennis Neill: And what year did you actually retire?
Dr. Frances Haas: I quit in 2021 when I turned 70. It's like, okay, I'm working a 60hour workweek. I'm getting old. It's time to slow down.
Dennis Neill: And did you sell the clinic?
Dr. Frances Haas: No, I was working for Warren Clinic then, and I retired from them.
Yeah, actually, when I bought the clinic from Jeff Beal and I tried to keep it going, but
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�I couldn't make the insurance companies pay me, and I went broke with being in
private practice, and you just didn't have the time because you're working so many
hours and you're focusing on the patient to manage, you know, trying to get the
insurance to pay, and then I joined University of Oklahoma and taught there for ve
years and then I went to Warren Clinic and then retired from there, and since then
I've been working for Geriatric Center of Tulsa until February of this year doing
geriatric care and also would have residents in internal medicine from OSU and the
medical school or the residency in Tahlequah to learn geriatric medicine. And I quit
that in February. I wanted to learn osteopathic manipulation better because I had it in
school but I didn't have anybody to practice on. So I asked OSU if I could, you know,
kind of sit in on their classes, and they said, “Sure, we'll make you a table trainer.”
They actually pay me, I said, “But I, I need to learn.” They said, “You know more than
those rst-year students,” and so I've learned a lot. It's changed a lot in the past 30
years, and so I'm learning that, and I'm getting ready to start. I really miss patients
and so I'm getting ready to start volunteering for I think it's called the Cura – C U R A
– Clinic over in Sapulpa. So looking at that.
Toby Jenkins: Well, we're always looking for volunteers here at our medical clinic
here in theDr. Frances Haas: I don't have insurance.
Toby Jenkins: And they have treated a lot of transgender patients. So we've talked
a lot about your professional work and your patient work. Are you partnered?
Dr. Frances Haas: You mean like a spouse?
Toby Jenkins: Yes, yeah,
Dr. Frances Haas: I nally married at age 48. Late to go to medical school; late to
marry. Don't have any children except the dogs. My spouse has been very
supportive of my work. Initially he was afraid that I would, you know, that I'd pick up
HIV. But he's learned. I've educated him, And he was in computer management in
the ONEOK building; he had a data center there. As he said, all these data centers
that they're proposing here, he was kind of the start of it.
Dennis Neill: And how about during your practice, your intersection with HOPE,
Tulsa Cares, OkEQ, OSU, was that part of your outreach for your clients? Did you
have much interaction with those other organizations?
Dr. Frances Haas: I had some with OU. I had, would get residents from OU, internal
medicine, rotating through.
Toby Jenkins: In the medical school.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, and then not too much with OSU. Tulsa Cares, yes, you
know, referring people to their nutritional program and all that. We worked together,
worked a lot with Sharon Thoele, and HOPE, knew them, and you know, and they
would refer patients to me.
Toby Jenkins: Patients who had been recently diagnosed. Well, I know you usually
attended the World AIDS Day events here at the Equality Center. I think we've had
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�you speak a couple of times. I just wonder if our panelists have any other questions
for you, and did you have anything else you want to make sure we cover?
Dr. Frances Haas: I could say after I started doing transgender medicine, my
stepbrother became my stepsister. I get a letter. It comes while we're driving out to
Colorado, and I read the letter, and it's like, “Oh, well this makes perfect sense,
because it's like something's not right about him.” And I can remember my parents,
my mom and stepfather, my second stepfather, the good stepfather, talking about, is
he gay? You know, they're married, they've got a kid, and when I got that letter, it's
like, well this explains everything, and she had surgery in Thailand and everything.
Toby Jenkins: So this would be the spouse of your sister?
Dr. Frances Haas: It was my second stepfather, his son, is now my stepsister. So,
and I've known her since I was 14.
Dennis Neill: Now, how's she dealing with it in this new climate?
Dr. Frances Haas: Fearful. They're thinking of moving to France.
Dennis Neill: Oh, they live in France?
Dr. Frances Haas: One reason I am for early treatment is she makes an ugly
woman, because she had everything done at 50, started the hormones and all, so
you know, you've got the masculinization. And I saw my people who started in high
school, the feminization, they just, the appearance was much better. You know, some
of them were really drop-dead beautiful. I was stunned.
Mary Bishop-Baldwin: What a coincidence, though.
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah, and you know, but she is, you know, a little bit
fearful, and talking about moving to France.
Mary Bishop-Baldwin: She did move to France.
Dr. Frances Haas: She's thinking about it, yeah.
Mary Bishop-Baldwin: She hasn’t yet. Where does she live now?
Dr. Frances Haas: Vermont.
Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Okay.
Toby Jenkins: Well I hope Vermont's more...
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah.
Mary Bishop-Baldwin: One of the more liberal areas. And what happened with her
family after she...
Dr. Frances Haas: That was kind of interesting. She, she was married, had a
daughter. The marriage was a little rocky, and when this all came about, there was a
pretty severe divorce, and the daughter went with the mother and was estranged
from the father for years. And then on Facebook, the daughter says, who's Susan
******? And my little sister says, “I'm not answering that.” She says, “Let her Aunt
21
�Nancy handle that.” So Aunt Nancy said, you know, “That's your dad.” And so, then
we all got together in Phoenix and had a family reunion. So, got back together. She
didn't realize what was going on. Her mom had kept it from her.
Mary Bishop-Baldwin: How old was she at the time?
Dr. Frances Haas: She was probably in high school, but mom just, they just kept it
hidden. And she didn't realize the transgender, you know. And so now they have a
relationship again.
Dennis Neill: Is that true with all extended family too, as far as the transgender?
Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, you know, I am blessed in my family in that, you know,
we're two blended families and we just get along really well. I mean, you know, I've
got one niece that's a little bit of a problem, but we've just put the two families
together really well for parents marrying later in life and all. So our family's really
blessed. I compare it to my husband's family, and it's like he's got one of those
families. I got a sister-in-law I don't like. Our family's been blessed in that we all get
along. I think my second cousin, I think their son may be transgender. I know his
mom called me to talk to me about it.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you've had family and friends and neighbors and patients
and, you know. Yeah. We usually ask this, what message would you like to give for
the future, for those who come after us, for younger people, younger activists, maybe
younger medical providers, what message would you like to give them?
Dr. Frances Haas: I think education of what being transgendered is, is incredibly
necessary. Confrontation usually does not work. And for those accepting, it's like, as
a female, I may like guys with dark hair or I may like guys with baldness. Other
people can't stand a bald-headed guy. You can’t tell about sexual attraction. I can
remember as a child getting mixed up with my gender when I was probably about 3
or 4. I have very ne hair. Somebody told my mother it'd thicken it up if they cut it
short, like a boy. It's like, “Well, I have short hair. I must be a boy.” I named myself
Gary. It probably only lasted about a year until my hair started growing out and I
realized. They need research on it because there's different places in the brain that
turn on and say, “I'm a male.” “I'm a female.” One of them's around age 2 or 3.
There's another one in adolescence. On imaging studies, there’s some differences
in male and female brains. One thing that I would like to see looked at is a lot of my
transgender patients were what I call double-jointed, where they bring the hand back
way like this. I don't know if it's that common in the regular population or if it's, you
know, a trait of being transgender. I did bring this up with a friend of mine who's
going to specialized in that disorder to look into that because it may be genetics. So
it's not a choice. It's not a choice.
Toby Jenkins: Physical characteristics that are manifest in all sorts of different
ways. Certainly, it's just because someone is different or they may not be like
everybody else. It's not a reason to vilify them, be violent towards them, or restrict
their constitutional rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Anything else?
Dr. Frances Haas: I think that's about it.
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�Toby Jenkins: Thank you so much. This has been so helpful. Dr. Frances Fae Haas
here on May 5th, 2026, at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in the Joe and Nancy
McDonald Rainbow Library. You've heard her story here on the History Project.
Thank you so much for Dr. Haas. And on behalf of our team, we want to thank you
for serving the LGBTQ community, transgender community, our brothers and sisters
who lived with HIV/AIDS. Thank you. I'm so glad that you saw that light in the
window and you felt called to take care of this community. Thank you so much.
23
�
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[Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
<strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong>
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Title
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[2026] Frances Haas Interview
Subject
The topic of the resource
Frances Haas Oral History Interview from May 5, 2026
Description
An account of the resource
In this in-depth interview, Dr. Frances Haas shares her remarkable journey from a small-town girl to a pioneering physician serving the LGBTQ community, including HIV/AIDS patients and transgender individuals. She discusses her career, medical insights, advocacy, and the evolving landscape of gender-affirming care. Interview conducted by Toby Jenkins, transcribed and edited by Mary Bishop-Baldwin.
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Frances Haas, Toby Jenkins, Mary Bishop-Baldwin
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May 5, 2026
2026
AIDS treatment
AIDS/HIV
Dr. Frances Fae Haas
Frances Haas
gender affirming
gender affirming care
gender-affirming care
healthcare
HIV research
HIV treatment
HIV/AIDs
Mary Bishop-Baldwin
OKEQ Oral History Project
oral history
oral history interview
Oral History Project
oral history transcript
Toby Jenkins
transcript
Transgender
-
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/80a666c71fa7d00ebe6c35e6c3cd5029.mp4
a529e7f8f4fac75bb63c5db6e403adfb
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/1fb8011913addc5505031ad0b07566bc.pdf
a0af57e73d112460472ed6b6c2955e74
PDF Text
Text
Oklahomans for Equality
Oral History Interview
with
Gordon George
Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins
Date: February 3, 2026
Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video February 8,
2026
Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A
Oklahomans for Equality
History Project
621 E. 4th Street
Tulsa, OK. 74120
918.743.4297
historyproject@okeq.org
1
�About Gordon George
Keywords
Gordon George, LGBTQ history, Tulsa, community, coming out, AIDS crisis, activism,
volunteer work, identity, equality
Takeaways
● Gordon George shares his early life in Oswego, Kansas.
● He discusses the challenges of fitting in during school.
● Moving to Tulsa was a pivotal moment for Gordon's identity.
● He recalls his first experiences in the gay community.
● Gordon's involvement in LGBTQ activism began in the 80s.
● He faced challenges during the AIDS crisis and supported affected friends.
● Coming out to his family was a significant turning point.
● Gordon reflects on the changes in the LGBTQ community over the years.
● He emphasizes the importance of volunteering and community support.
● Gordon encourages future generations to appreciate and protect their rights.
2
�Summary
In this conversation, Gordon George shares his life story, detailing his experiences
growing up in Kansas, moving to Tulsa, and discovering his identity as a gay man. He
reflects on the challenges he faced in school, his involvement in the LGBTQ
community, and the impact of the AIDS crisis. Gordon discusses his journey of coming
out to his family, the importance of volunteering, and the progress of LGBTQ rights over
the years. He emphasizes the need for continued activism and support for future
generations.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Early Life
03:04 School Experiences and Identity
05:55 Moving to Tulsa and Discovering Community
09:05 Exploring Sexuality and Relationships
11:59 Involvement in the LGBTQ Community
14:59 Challenges and Triumphs in the 80s
18:08 Family Dynamics and Coming Out
20:59 AIDS Crisis and Community Support
24:03 Volunteering and Activism
27:05 Reflections on Change and Progress
30:00 Current Involvement and Future Outlook
Gordon George Oral History Interview February 3, 2026
Toby Jenkins: This is February the 3rd on Tuesday in 2026, and we're here in the Nancy
and Joe Rainbow Library at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. And today, we are
interviewing Gordon George. And Gordon, can you tell us your name and your date of
birth?
Gordon George: Gordon George, 10-5-53.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, very good. And where were you born?
Gordon George: Oswego, Kansas.
Toby Jenkins: Oswego, Kansas. And about where is that located?
Gordon George: Southeast Kansas.
Toby Jenkins: Southeast Kansas, so not far from the Oklahoma line?
Gordon George: Right.
3
�Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And is that a little town, big town?
Gordon George: Little.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: They don't even have a hospital anymore.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Do they still have a full high school and all of that?
Gordon George: As far as I know, yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. So you were born there and is that where your parents are
from?
Gordon George: They're from Southeast Kansas, yes.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And what was your dad's name and what is your mom's name?
Gordon George: Freddy was my dad. My mother was Stella.
Toby Jenkins: Stella? And are they still living?
Gordon George: My dad's still kicking, 92.
Toby Jenkins: 92 years old.
Gordon George: And mother's been gone 23 years.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. What was their careers? What did they do forGordon George: My dad was a teamster.
Toby Jenkins: Oh.
Gordon George: And mother was a homemaker and then she went into tax preparation.
Did that for many years.
Toby Jenkins: And how many siblings? Do you have siblings?
Gordon George: I have one brother and a sister. I was the middle child.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. Are they both still with us?
Gordon George: No. My brother died twelve years ago, I think.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: And my sister's still with us. She lives near Kansas City.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. Were you ever married?
Gordon George: No.
Toby Jenkins: So you don't have any children that you know of?
4
�Gordon George: No. I know there's no children.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. Very good. All right. So your father's still living. Where did you go to
school?
Gordon George: Independence, Kansas.
Toby Jenkins: And so did your family move to Independence, Kansas, or?
Gordon George: Yes. We moved to Coffeyville when I was very young. And we moved to
Independence when I was in the third grade.
Toby Jenkins: And what was Independence like?
Gordon George: Horrible.
Toby Jenkins: The school you mean or just the city?
Gordon George: It was a clicky town. Very clickish.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: And I have no desire to go back other than to see my dad.
Toby Jenkins: So no warm feelings, or?
Gordon George: Oh, no, no, no.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And you moved there in the third grade, was it difficult? New kid in
that school. Did you not feel welcome, or?
Gordon George: Oh, in grade school, it wasn't so bad. It's junior high and high school is
when it got rough.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: Because I didn't feel I fit in.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. Because you weren't from Independence and you all had moved
there or because of your religion or your ethnicity or because youGordon George: We lived south of Main Street. We didn't live on the good side of town.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: And people looked at that, where you live.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: So I just- it's still that way. That town's still that way.
Toby Jenkins: Still very clickish and segregated according to class.
Gordon George: Yes.
5
�Toby Jenkins: And according to a person's- how much money they make.
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. Because people's descriptions of small towns are that they're
wonderful and welcoming and everybody's so close and looks after each other. But that
wasn't your experience.
Gordon George: No.
Toby Jenkins: Where did you go to high school?
Gordon George: Independence.
Toby Jenkins: And what year did you graduate?
Gordon George: '71.
Toby Jenkins: 1971. Okay. And did you go on to technical school? Were you in the
military?
Gordon George: I attended junior college. I didn't graduate. And I moved to Oklahoma
in '79.
Toby Jenkins: '79? Now, where did you go to junior college?
Gordon George: Independence.
Toby Jenkins: Independence. Oh, there's a junior school and college there?
Gordon George: Mm-hmm.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: And then I came- when I moved here, I went to Tulsa Junior College
here for a couple courses. I did some- I got my real estate license with Tulsa Tech here
in Tulsa, so.
Toby Jenkins: And that would have been in '79 when you moved to Tulsa?
Gordon George: Yes, I think so.
Toby Jenkins: So how did you decide to move to Tulsa?
Gordon George: To get out of that.
Toby Jenkins: To get out of Independence?
Gordon George: Oh, yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. Right. So you went to high school there. I mean did you have a job
there in Independence for a while?
Gordon George: I worked for Southwestern Bell.
6
�Toby Jenkins: Okay. Is that what brought you to Tulsa?
Gordon George: Yes.
Toby Jenkins: You were able to transfer?
Gordon George: Yes.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, perfect. And what was that like in the 1970s? Working with- what
did you do with Southwest Bell?
Gordon George: I was actually- when I started, I started as a cord board operator. The
Lily Tomlin.
Toby Jenkins: Really?
Gordon George: Yeah. Actually doing the cords into the switchboard.
Toby Jenkins: So if I had called there in the 70s, you would have answered and you
would have transferred my call or you would have made a long distance call or did you
do information? What was yourGordon George: All of it.
Toby Jenkins: All of it.
Gordon George: Okay.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: And I came to Oklahoma and went into information from there and
then went into sales at the phone store.
Toby Jenkins: How neat. Mall Bell.
Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So that's what brought you to Tulsa.
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: Now, since you were never married, what pronoun do you use? How do
you identify your gender?
Gordon George: I'm a gay male.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you identify as a gay man.
Gordon George: Yes.
Toby Jenkins: Do you remember- we've talked about how you weren't happy in
Independence and that you felt some isolation. Did you have an awareness that you
were gay or that you had same-sex attraction?
7
�Gordon George: Oh yeah. Starting back in junior high school.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you began to have those feelings and you knew what that was.
Okay. And did you have resources? I mean did you go to the library and look in a book or
did you just kind of knew what that meant?
Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Did you ever feel any kind of awareness that there were other people in
your school who were like you?
Gordon George: One.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. Did you ever feel like some of your unhappiness in junior high and
high school had to do with- did anybody bully you or make you feel like you were
different?
Gordon George: Oh, I was bullied, yes. Particularly one gentleman or one kid. I don't
know if- why he targeted me. But paybacks are hell. He died young.
Toby Jenkins: Oh, mercy.
Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: So you don't really, you don't feel like you were bullied in high school
because they perceived you were different, or?
Gordon George: No.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you said that you were in junior high when you had these
feelings. When you moved to Tulsa with Southwestern Bell, I still- I just think that's
fascinating that you were- you used the Lily Tomlin one ringy dingy to the switchboard
operator.
Which- I'm just out of curiosity, I don't know that I ever called information and ever got a
male voice. Did you ever hear anybody be surprised that it was a male sounding voice
that answered the line or?
Gordon George: Not so much because we had a female that sounded like a guy.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: So there was two of us.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: And of course my voice was a little high.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: So.
8
�Toby Jenkins: Fascinating. So you had came to Tulsa. You were an adult, young adult.
Did you realize you were gay?
Gordon George: Oh, yeah.
Toby Jenkins: And were ready to act upon it and?
Gordon George: Yeah, first time in a gay bar when I came to Oklahoma.
Toby Jenkins: And do you remember what year that would have been?
Gordon George: 80.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. And do you remember what the bar was, the club?
Gordon George: Tim's Playroom.
Toby Jenkins: Tim's Playroom. Okay. And how did you find out about Tim's Playroom?
Gordon George: A co-worker invited me to go.
Toby Jenkins: So you had a gay co-worker?
Gordon George: Mm-hmm.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: And he invited me to go with him, and we went to the bar. First time I
was in a bar.
Toby Jenkins: And what was your thoughts that first experience of being in a space
where there were other people like you? And it was that nobody could look into it. The
windows were covered overGordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: - and you could beGordon George: And it was a drag show that day, too.
Toby Jenkins: Oh, was it? That's the first time you'd ever?
Gordon George: Mm-hmm.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah? Do you remember your feelings that day, or?
Gordon George: I was nervous as hell.
Toby Jenkins: Really?
Gordon George: Yeah. 'Cause I didn't know what to expect. I just really didn't know
what going to a gay bar was gonna entail. I had no idea, so.
Toby Jenkins: Now, had you had an intimate relationship prior to going to the gay bar? I
mean, had you had an intimate9
�Gordon George: ... back in junior high.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: Same one, over and over.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. So that was when you explored your sexuality?
Gordon George: He brought me out, yes.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so you knew from junior high on that you were attracted to
your same sex?
Gordon George: Yes.
Toby Jenkins: So when you moved to Tulsa, you had this co-worker. Did you begin to
explore other relationships with gay men?
Gordon George: Yes, but not with my co-worker.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you went to Tim's playroom. Did that become kind of something
you did on a regular basis? Went to gay bars andGordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: Most weekends.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Because at work, you couldn't be out, right?
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: I mean, that was a ... .
Gordon George: Well, it wasn't so much. I think people perceived that if you worked as
an operator, that maybe you were gay, as a perception. But I wasn't out. I wasn't open
about it.
Toby Jenkins: What was the community like, that you found in the clubs and the bars?
Gordon George: More accepting than I thought it would be.
Toby Jenkins: So you're just a boy from KansasGordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: - Land in the big city. And what was Tulsa like in those days?
Gordon George: Other than the bars, I didn't do much, 'cause of the hours that I worked
with Bill. 'Cause there's times that I worked nights and late evenings. Go in at six o'clock
and get off at midnight. Or go in at 06:00 and stay till 02:00, it just depends.
10
�Gordon George: So it kinda- and there was more one-on-one in those days with your
customers online, or on the phone than there is today. Because they had to physically
ask for addresses and stuff like that if we could even give it out. And more interaction
with the publicToby Jenkins: Oh, yeah.
Gordon George: - Than there is today.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, you called information for everything.
Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: There were even songs about information.
Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you had went to Tim's playroom, and that's how you first
connected with the gay community in Tulsa?
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. It's the early 80s, late 70s in Tulsa. Did you go to any theater
programs, any sports events? And just a part of the culture in Tulsa thatGordon George: Yeah. We'd do public events, like when they had ice skating at the
downtown. We'd go to the Nutcracker during the holidays on ice.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Gordon George: Go do that kinda thing and let it out.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Tulsa had a downtown mall in those daysGordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: - Built around, I think it's called the Galleria, wasn't it?
Dennis Neill: Forum.
Toby Jenkins: Forum, called the Forum.
Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Galleria was in Dallas. So you would do things like that, social
events.
Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Now, when you went to this club, did you meet some other guys, and
they kinda became your posse, or your clique of friends, or?
Gordon George: No, it was more introduction through the co-worker. Because he had
been out for many years.
11
�Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: And he introduced me to some of his friends. We'd become a circle of
friends that would do things, mainly go to the bars.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. Do you remember some of the other clubs that you might've went
to? You keep saying the bars.
Gordon George: Zippers.
Toby Jenkins: Went to Zippers, okay. And what was Zippers?
Gordon George: It was a high-energy bar.
Toby Jenkins: Like a disco?
Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: And of course, The Bamboo.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. Yeah, whichGordon George: That was a trash bar.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, but it had been there forever. Yeah, it's one of the oldest. And it
was in the north part of Tulsa. The Zippers was Midtown, like 31st and Yale.
Gordon George: Yale.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So were there any- through the clubs, were you aware of any things
like gay softball leagues, gay churches?
Gordon George: Gay churches. I attended Metropolitan Community for a while.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. And where was it located?
Gordon George: North Tulsa.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. So I know that they also had a congregation in Jenks at one time,
but you went to the north Tulsa location on Queen. It was on Queen.
Gordon George: I couldn't tell you.
Toby Jenkins: And- so you were connected to that. What about any of the gay softball
programs, or what about pride picnics?
Gordon George: I had- I- when they had it at Mohawk Park, I drove through it once. I
thought, no, I can't do this.
Toby Jenkins: And why was that?
Gordon George: The crowd, and I just didn't feel comfortable.
12
�Toby Jenkins: Was it because of visibility, or just the large crowd?
Gordon George: More the large crowd.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, yeah. So that was the- that would've been the early 80s, and you
were still with Southwest Bell. Were you staying in contact with your family? I mean, it's
pretty common for gay men, lesbian women to move from small towns to bigger cities,
where there can be some distance between their families in those days because they
didn't wanna embarrass their families, or they wanted their life- their adult life to be
private. Were you still in contact with your parents and independents?
Gordon George: Yes.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: It didn't change. I mean, I didn't come out to my family until '85, '86.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, and what was that like?
Gordon George: It was in a fit of rage.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, tell us a little bit about that.
Gordon George: I had been to- I was living in Oklahoma City at the time. I went home
for Christmas and my brother was there, and we didn't get along, and my mother kept
harping at me, why don't you get along with your brother? Why don't you get along with
your brother? You need to do this, do that.
Gordon George: And that's the first time I told my mother to shut up. I'd had enough.
Packed my bags and left.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: So- and that's when- later that spring is when I came out to my family.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, the whole family, or just your parents, or your mom, or?
Gordon George: My mom and sister.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, and how did they handle that?
Gordon George: Better than I thought. Mother and I became good friends after that.
When I moved to Oklahoma City and then moved back to Tulsa, she would go to the
bars with me, and yeah, we would- and there were times we would- just the two of us
would go out and have drinks. Sit and talk for hours. 'Cause she lived with me for a
while too.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. So did she enjoy hanging around with your friends and going to theGordon George: Oh yeah, she was good. She was okay with it, yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay.
13
�Gordon George: When I was also involved in the Tulsa AIDS Task Force.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, so that's what's going on.
Gordon George: And we would do barbecues and stuff. We had a big barbecue out at
Inola and they supplied the beef for it. They had a calf slaughtered andToby Jenkins: Oh, a family in Inola did it, or?
Gordon George: No, my family.
Toby Jenkins: Oh, your parents? Oh wonderful.
Gordon George: They provided the beef.
Toby Jenkins: And so it was a fundraiser for?
Gordon George: Tulsa AIDS Task Force.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. That's the first time I've heard that name.
Dennis Neill: That was a group that the United Way and Community Service Council
had pulled together. All the conveners that met, and then eventually it's been off to
Tulsa Cares. Does that sound right?
Gordon George: I couldn't tell you.
Toby Jenkins: But it's called the Tulsa AIDS Task Force?
Gordon George: Mm-hmm. We were the fundraisers for them.
Toby Jenkins: For the programs for people living with HIV AIDS?
Gordon George: Mm-hmm.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, and that would've been mid-80s?
Gordon George: Mm-hmm.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. And by then, apparently, your family was supporting you, your
parents, especially if they were going to gay clubs with you and donating beef for a
cookout. Do you remember the first time you heard about AIDS?
Gordon George: I had seen it on the news, but I didn't know. I had a friend that asked
me to get involved with the task force to help with the fundraising.
Toby Jenkins: Did you know people in those early days, who had AIDS and were dying?
Or do you rememberGordon George: Yes.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: With the church, I was on the RAIN team.
14
�Toby Jenkins: At Metropolitan Community Church, they're a RAIN team? And what did a
RAIN team do?
Gordon George: We went to support families and patients with HIV.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: And I've seen too many die, so I had to quit doing it. It was too rough.
Toby Jenkins: When you say too many died, like there were five or six people that died,
or was there dozens, or what was it like forGordon George: That I was involved with, it was probably four or five.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: And then, I had a personal friend that became ill.
Toby Jenkins: And so what was that like in those days? You found out your friends had
AIDS. What were your thoughts? Tell us what that was like in those days.
Gordon George: It was bad. It was tough, especially the friend that I- I was working fulltime. He needed help. And I quit my job. Spent the last couple months of his life helping
him. So and that was really bad, really tough.
Toby Jenkins: And just took care of him?
Gordon George: He went to- well, part of the fundraising that I had helped with, we
give, if I remember right, about $10,000 to- I can't think of the name of it, Catholic
Charities. They're home forToby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: And he's actuallyToby Jenkins: St. Joseph's ... .
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: That was a hospice care center.
Gordon George: Right. And that's where he was at, when he died.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: So- and I was- it made me feel good that I would help raise the money
to help support their organization, and they helped him.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: So yeah, it was tough. And he was saying that, why he was- talking
about why he was on earth. And I said, "Part of it was because you could be my friend."
And that was tough. And I was with him when he took his last breath. So his mother and
I were with him.
15
�Toby Jenkins: So in those days, people were finding- they would find out they were ill. I
mean, would they go to the doctor because they were feeling bad, or because they were
being cautious?
Gordon George: They'd go find out that they were ill. And when you found out you had
HIV AIDS, there wasn't any kind of treatment plan that was keeping you alive longer in
those early days. So people were gone pretty quick.
Toby Jenkins: Or did people live with it for a while? Do you remember?
Gordon George: Both.
Toby Jenkins: Both? So some people lasted longer thanGordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: And what was the general attitude of the community in those days, like in
the gay bars, did people act different with their behavior? Did they shun or isolate
people once they found out they were sick, or were people being cautious or being
careful not to spread it?
Gordon George: They weren't as careful as they should've beenToby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: - back then. 'Cause it really hadn't hit home so much here in
Oklahoma like it was on major metropolitan areas. So- but once it really got a hold here,
people were thinking, oh, yeah, we need to be more careful and actually more
responsive as far as fundraising, so…I met a lot of people during the fundraising, people
that cared.
Toby Jenkins: People outside the gay community, or justGordon George: Oh, yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: The Perigos were one of them [Jerry and Peggy Perigo].
Toby Jenkins: Okay. Yeah. Perigo family?
Gordon George: Mm-hmm.
Toby Jenkins: Who [Jerry Perigo] was the judge here in town. So this would have all
been during the 80s, right?
Gordon George: Right.
16
�Toby Jenkins: So you were involved with the Tulsa AIDS Task Force, and a part of RAIN,
which was a care team associated with your church.
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: That provided care for people living with HIV AIDS. When did you begin
to- did you start- were you still working at Southwest Bell? You said you quit your job to
take care of your friend.
Gordon George: Oh, no. I had left Southwestern Bell before that. I left Southwestern
Bell in '85.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. When did you- I know you're doing the work with the AIDS Task
Force, what about relationships? Did you have a partner during those days? Did you
haveGordon George: No.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you just kinda hung out with the group?
Gordon George: Right. Yeah. I didn't- yeah. It was not a pleasant time after I left Bell,
and 'cause I did an odd job kinda things and wound up declaring bankruptcy and had to
start all over.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. So in the fundraising part, did you ever get involved with the quilts,
the NAMES project, the AIDS quilts?
Gordon George: No.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. But you were aware thatGordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: Yeah. I had seen it, but I wasn't involved in any of the organization part
of it.
Toby Jenkins: Did you ever participate in the annual follies that were big fundraisers for
the HIV AIDS causes?
Gordon George: No.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. Big performance shows. Okay. When did you begin to get involved
with TOHR? Did I ask if you ever went to any of the pride picnics, or the pride parades?
Did you ever get involved with any of that?
Gordon George: No. I didn't get involved until, what was it, '91, '92, maybe.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: And it was when I was attending your church organization. That's when
I got involved.
17
�Toby Jenkins: Yeah, that would've been later. That would have been about 1999
something.
Gordon George: Was it that late?
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. AndGordon George: Oh, okay. '99.
Toby Jenkins: You're talking aboutGordon George: Yeah, '99.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, you're talking about the Ekklesia group?
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: Which is a group for recovering evangelicals and who- wasn't really a
church. It was kind of a Christian support group. And it would meet at the center, the
TOHR center, which was in Highland Park.
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: So that's where you've began to get involved and started volunteering
with the organization.
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Do you… I know that at one year, you received 'Volunteer of the
year' from TOHR- probably Oklahomans for Equality by then. And why were you given
that award? Do you remember?
Gordon George: For the help of working here on the building.
Toby Jenkins: Yep.
Gordon George: And doing…I got even the very first Thanksgiving dinner we had here I
helped with. I wasn't in charge of it at that time, but I helped with it. So- and Kristi
Freeman I think was ... Toby Jenkins: Kristi Freeman?
Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Who was on the board.
Gordon George: Yeah, I helped her and then one year when Nancy McDonald helped
with it andToby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: And then after that's when I actually started conducting it all.
18
�Toby Jenkins: So I know that you were very involved with the organization when they
bought the building. And you're talking about, for a year we spent renovating. And
Christy Frisbee, Sue Welch and some of those folks led some of the- we did it
ourselves. Our gay boys were designers and our girls were good with power tools. So we
were a perfect match and we did it ourselves, didn't we? You have to.
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: And so you spent some time down hereGordon George: Hanging sheet rock and that kinda stuff, yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, ripping up carpet and pushing up old tile.
Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: And we were proud to have it, weren't we?
Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: So you had been in Tulsa for a while. So you'd kind of saw an evolution
where we had had smaller centers, that were kinda tucked into hidden places. All of a
sudden we were right downtown. Yeah. I know that you also were very involved every
time we had the big dances and the big events.
Toby Jenkins: You always were in charge of the kitchen and the refreshments and for
the fall-a-law ball.
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: And the Wild Hearts ball and volunteered at the Equality Gala. So you
were very helpful and a very good organizer, especially when it came to setting things up
and food service. So you talked about- you got involved with the Thanksgiving dinner.
Can you kinda remember some details why we did that, why we had it?
Gordon George: It was for people that didn't have families to go to.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, and why would they not have had families to go to?
Gordon George: A lot of their families disowned them.
Toby Jenkins: Right.
Gordon George: And I was fortunate enough, my family didn't disown me.
Toby Jenkins: Right. And it was on- what day did we do it?
Gordon George: Usually Thanksgiving Day.
Toby Jenkins: And did you have to cook all the food or where did the food come from?
Gordon George: A lot of the food was donated, but there was a couple times that I
cooked the turkeys.
19
�Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Right.
Gordon George: And I was- back on those days I thought I wouldn't do it today.
Toby Jenkins: And so now, for anybody who's familiar with the Equality Center today,
we have a commercial kitchen. But in those days ... Gordon George: Oh, no.
Toby Jenkins: - we had the kitchen that we put together ourselves.
Gordon George: Tiny hole-in-the-wall kitchen.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And you'd have to serve hundreds of people ... . Okay.
Gordon George: I think the most we served was 225.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so we talked about this. So we worked with the faith
communities that were inclusive and welcoming.
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: And they kinda sponsored and would provide all the food. So it was like a
massive potluck dinner and you had to coordinate all that.
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: And that was all served on Thanksgiving Day. But the food started coming
in when?
Gordon George: The day before, or ... Toby Jenkins: A couple of days. Yeah.
Gordon George: Depends on the organization.
Toby Jenkins: And you all would be back there preparing turkeys and hams and ... Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So- and we not only served people on Thanksgiving Day, we
provided to-go meals for people who ... Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: You could call down here and we'd deliver those to you. About how many
faith communities were involved, do you remember?
Gordon George: Oh, eight, ten maybe.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah?
Gordon George: Somewhere around there. I don't remember for sure.
20
�Toby Jenkins: Do you remember the year of Muslims for Mercy or the- they were
compassionate Muslims. They provided the turkey and it was seasoned with the Middle
Eastern flavor.
Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Okay, so ... Gordon George: That's when I quit cooking turkeys after that.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. But- so we did that, and it was called 'Come Home for the
Holidays'. And we'd have a huge turnout. Transgender people who were not allowed to
go home and present to their family as they identified. Gay couples who- they might be
able to go home but they couldn't bring their boyfriend or their girlfriend home. And then
it got to where entire families just came out to show support. And about how many
people would help you work on that event.
Gordon George: Oh, 15 maybe or 20, depends.
Toby Jenkins: And then on Thanksgiving morning, how many people to get it all ready to
go?
Gordon George: Usually maybe 8 to 10.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: Including my family.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, now tell us about how you got your family, talked into helping with
this.
Gordon George: I don't remember other than, I was involved with it and I wasn't going
to their place. And at that point, my mother had died. So it was- can't go home. Home
was changed. So we- I volunteered to keep- from thinking about Thanksgiving at home
is no longerToby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: And so they would come here. My dad and my sister and brother-inlaw and my nieces and nephews andToby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: They would all come. At one point, all came involved.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, your brother and his wife.
Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: And their children, and yeah.
Gordon George: Yeah. My brother, when he was alive, he was here when he could. And
they lived in Collinsville. So it wasn't- it was easier for them to come and help.
21
�Toby Jenkins: But your sister was coming from where?
Gordon George: Near Kansas City.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And it became a thing for over a decade.
Gordon George: Yeah. Until COVID.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: COVID put an end to it.
Toby Jenkins: So I know you volunteered with the Equality Gala. Did you volunteer at
Pride too?
Gordon George: Oh, yeah. I helped in the treasury departments.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: Counted tickets and counted tickets.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. And that you were always available to help for just so many
things that we were doing.
Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: I know today you're pretty involved in the Oklahomans for Equality's
program for senior adults. Do you remember when you began to get involved with that?
Originally, I think we called it SAGE butGordon George: I don't remember. It was when we were a smaller group and it was
before the remodeling of the event center and the kitchen. It was before that that I was
involved with SAGE when we met in the great hall.
Toby Jenkins: So about 13, 14 years ago.
Gordon George: I don't know.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: Too many years ago to think about.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And what was your reason for being involved with that?
Gordon George: It was an outreach for being around gay people that were my age.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And much like the work you did with RAIN team and AIDS over the
years, we've lost a lot of people who were involved in that program. Many, many, many
people.
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Tell us some of the things that SAGE would do. Like, did we go see
people, check on people?
22
�Gordon George: I wasn't involved in a lot of that. I would just come during the day
'cause of the hours that I worked in the company that I was working for. I worked a lot of
nights.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: So I didn't get to attend SAGE as much as I do now.
Toby Jenkins: So I know- I wanna bring this up. I know you worked for companies and
you understood they had corporate support for non-profits and you were able to get
them to support- work here at the Equality Center.
Gordon George: Right, they made a donation to us.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Was it Thanksgiving they would sponsor or was it the SAGE
program ... Gordon George: No, it was ... - now that you mention it, I don't remember.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: I know they- it was during- it was closer to the holidays, yeah, so.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yep. So you understood the value of getting corporate support.
Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: And they were willing to do it, weren't they, that company?
Gordon George: Right. And I think that was- it happened a lot, when they had to do
some diversity training because of the way I was treated at work.
Toby Jenkins: Right.
Gordon George: Particularly one, there are two people out there that were hateful.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: And so, they had diversity training and I think that was what brought it
out, that they give us money. Or even some of the people who were not happy, that they
give the money to us, here. But they had to get over it.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So that's interesting because presently in 2026, companies,
anybody who does any kind of diversity, inclusion or equity or equality efforts, DEI as we
call it, that's supposed, now companies are afraid to do that. And of course the
administration in the White House has labeled that as woke and bad, and universities,
and public institutions, and publicly funded institutions. And we've seen corporations
step back from that for fear of retribution. But you knew why diversity training was
important personally, because you had experienced discrimination in the workplace?
Gordon George: Right, right.
Toby Jenkins: And then your company23
�Gordon George: Put a stop to it.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And said, we need to do more to make sure all of our LGBT
employees feel valued.
Gordon George: Yeah. And I wasn't the only one at that point.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: There was others that came out. And it wasn't just the level that I was
at as far as an employee, there was even higher up. I mean one of the chemists came
out. And so, it wasn't just a lowly production worker, so. And there were several.
Toby Jenkins: Now just out of curiosity, you've told us your age. You had saw things
change, hadn't you, in Oklahoma from when you first got to Tulsa? I know we've talked
a lot about your time in Tulsa, so if I've corrected this, you've been here about 45 years
in the Tulsa area. I think maybe there were some times you moved away and came
back, is-you saw a lot of changes, especially for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender,
queer, and all the different letters of the acronym that we use for the gay community.
There's been a lot of changes.
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: Right. Do you feel like, from the early days, where your life was pretty
private work and gay bars were the dark, private places where we hid away from the
general community, we couldn't walk down the street holding hands, we did have pride
parades. Do you feel like Tulsa changed and became better?
Gordon George: Yes, it improved. It was slow, but it kept improving to the point where it
was more comfortable to be out, and OkEq was a big part of that for me to be
comfortable on being out. The community was getting more involved. The city itself was
becoming more involved.
Toby Jenkins: The proclamations of Gay Day in the city and the mayor's backing on
some things. Like naming the street Pride Street.
Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: So- and even to the point, where they named one of the streets of a
deceased police officer that was a lesbian.
Toby Jenkins: Jennifer Mansell.
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: Absolutely. Who was on the Tulsa Police Department and had named a
street. That was an incredible day. I remember that. That was our first openly gay
person to be her and her wife, who was a Wagner County treasurer, so…
24
�Gordon George: Yeah. And so it really improved a lot in those years until who got in the
White House and things.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And who in the White House?
Gordon George: Trump.
Toby Jenkins: Right.
Gordon George: Donald J. Trump.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah.
Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: So it's safe to say that whoever we put in the White House, that impacts
all of us.
Gordon George: Oh, yeah.
Toby Jenkins: It changes our world.
Gordon George: Especially when they're negative.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So you saw things improve, and do you think it was because of the
visibility? I know Oklahomans for Equality was doing lots of advocacy work, but do you
feel like some of it might have been because of the visibility of LGBTQ people, then
being more visible and open and out at work and faith communities changing their
positions?
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: I mean, when you came to Tulsa, MCC was the only church that had an
official mission and dedicated to the LGBT community. There were congregations like
'All Souls' and some other churches that may have been supportive of the community,
but even they had not come out with an official policy. You saw that all change where
faith communities helped support the Thanksgiving meals and also were a part of the
pride parades and were sponsors of the Equality Gala, so.
Gordon George: And it continued to grow. The pride parades just kept growing and
growing, and more of the community of Tulsa.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Corporations and companies proud to be a part of it. Yeah. So I
haven't asked this to anybody else, and I just thought I was gonna- I'm gonna ask this to
somebody who's kinda saw things change. Why do you think we have so few gay bars?
Because when you first came to Tulsa, there were lots of gay bars.
Gordon George: There was.
Toby Jenkins: And we now just have just a few left. I think at the time of this interview, I
only know of two, Majestic and Eagle, and then I guess Yellow Brick Road probably
identifies this. But why do you think things have changed there?
25
�Gordon George: I don't know. I wonder that myself. Why it's- especially as an older
adult there's not a whole lot of places that I would go that I would feel comfortable, as a
gay bar.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: The Eagle, but I'm not so much into leather and- I'm not so much into
going to the bars now, anyway.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: So.
Toby Jenkins: Do you think social media and used to, if you wanted a date, you had to
go find 'em, right?
Gordon George: Uh-huh.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And the places you found them was at the clubs. And you might
meet people at work, but you were afraid to tell somebody at work for fear you're
barking up the wrong tree.
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: Do you feel like the social media, the dating websites, the mobile apps,
the hookup apps.
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: Do you feel like that has changed the way we connect and meet people?
Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Definitely. Yeah, it was easier to get online and you still had
to wonder, okay, is it safe to meet this person or not? Are they gonna beat the hell out of
me when I get there? That kinda thing. But social media made a big difference. I don't
know if it's so much that- well, I think it's still even more now why the attendance to gay
bars is down.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: It's because of social media, people doing- hooking up online.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you have lived long enough to see things change. You've seen
things improve. But you've also saw us having to refight the fightGordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: - for stuff that we fought for.
Gordon George: That's ongoing now.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
26
�Gordon George: All the time, trying to protect the privileges and the rights that we got
that they keep trying to roll back.
Toby Jenkins: Right.
Gordon George: And it's an ongoing battle.
Toby Jenkins: Now, as you live your life, you're retired. And I know that you do a lot of
volunteer work. So let's talk a little bit about that. And while we talk about that, I wanna
know what your experience is. So I notice, let's start with you're branded today. And
what is that?
Gordon George: It's the ambassador program at the airport.
Toby Jenkins: Tulsa International Airport.
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: And they are a great organization to volunteer for. And they take care
of us quite well.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: They feed us multiple times a year. They're feeding us next month.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: The luncheon.
Toby Jenkins: So they do a lot of volunteer appreciation?
Gordon George: Oh, yes.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. And so today, that we're doing, this is a Tuesday. Did you volunteer
today at the airport?
Gordon George: Yes, 06:00 AM.
Toby Jenkins: Had to be there at 06:00 AM?
Gordon George: To 09:00, three hour shifts.
Toby Jenkins: And so what do you do? Park planes? Do you scrub planes? What do you
do?
Gordon George: Well, basically, we just direct traffic for passengers.
Toby Jenkins: Oh, okay.
Gordon George: Where's the nearest restroom? How do I get through TSA? Where do I
take my luggage? That kinda thing.
27
�Toby Jenkins: So you're at an information booth, or?
Gordon George: Yes.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, alright.
Gordon George: Or, as I'm what they call a roamer, which allows me to go in. I can go
out on either concourse, A and B, and assist people out there, or assist people getting
through TSA.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. And what is that experience like? Do you enjoy it?
Gordon George: I love it.
Toby Jenkins: Do you?
Gordon George: It's a great place to people watch.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: A lot of eye candy.
Toby Jenkins: A lot of hot, attractive men, okay.
Gordon George: Yes.
Toby Jenkins: Well, now we know why you do it.
Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: So you do that how many times a week?
Gordon George: I do twice a week, every other week. And then, sometimes on the fifth
week of the month, I'll do extra.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, like holiday time, during holiday?
Gordon George: I have done holiday extra.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. Do they know you're gay?
Gordon George: Yes.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. And do they treat you differently? Or do theyGordon George: No.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: No.
Toby Jenkins: So do any of you other volunteers say, "Hey, Gordon, do you see that
attractive man? Look at that."
Gordon George: Oh, the straight women that we talk about.
28
�Toby Jenkins: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so. Everybody's looking, right?
Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. How wonderful. And I wanna thank you, on behalf of our
community, for being there at the airport. I know that can't be real easy. Okay, so you do
that.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you volunteer at the Tulsa International Airport in the
ambassador program. What else do you volunteer with?
Gordon George: I help distribute Meals on Wheels.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: I work in the distribution center to help pack the packages that drivers
take. I help with that. And then, I also do driving.
Toby Jenkins: So you have to drive?
Gordon George: The delivery, yes.
Toby Jenkins: Yes. And do you enjoy that?
Gordon George: That's one day a week. Most of the time.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah? And you have to do that regardless of the weather, right?
Gordon George: No, they shut us down. The recent weather that we've had?
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: They shut us down.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, but in the middle of a hot summerGordon George: Oh, yeah.
Toby Jenkins: - or pouring down rain, you'll still have to do it.
Gordon George: Right, right.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. And would you encourage people to be a part of that program? Do
they need more volunteers?
Gordon George: They always need volunteers.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. What else do you volunteer with?
Gordon George: I volunteer with the SAGE group here. Of course, I do that.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, with the seniors program here.
Gordon George: Yeah. And I usher at the PAC in Broken Arrow.
29
�Toby Jenkins: And that's a volunteer position?
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: And what do you do there?
Gordon George: Just as an usher.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, andGordon George: Directing people to their seats.
Toby Jenkins: - you don't get paid? You're just doing it?
Gordon George: No.
Toby Jenkins: Now, what would be the perks of that?
Gordon George: You get to see the shows.
Toby Jenkins: So where else is it you volunteer at? We were talking about the Broken
Arrow PAC.
Gordon George: Oh, so…I just lost my thought.
Toby Jenkins: Well, let's talk a little bit about that cause I think we got cut off a little. So
you're a volunteer over there. What are the perks about volunteering as an usher at the
Broken Arrow Performing Arts Center?
Gordon George: Well, I got to see Lily Tomlin.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: And recently was Sandy Patty.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: And other productions.
Toby Jenkins: Have you ever been there when KristenChenoweth was there?
Gordon George: Yes.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. Our only- our little hero we had.
Gordon George: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: So that's- would you encourage people to volunteer as ushers at the
Performing Arts Center?
Gordon George: Right, and they take very little of your time.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: I mean it's not even once a month.
30
�Toby Jenkins: Yeah.
Gordon George: 'Cause they have quite a few volunteers, 'cause they will take
volunteers any time.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. You volunteer still here at the Equality Center. Anything else you
volunteer at?
Gordon George: Life Senior Services.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, and what do you do with them?
Gordon George: I mainly just help at their major fundraisers.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
Gordon George: I help when they do those.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. And tell us a little bit, what is Life Senior Services?
Gordon George: It supports adult seniors, and they do so much in the community. They
provide housing, they provide daycare for seniors. They don't call it daycare, it's
something else.
Toby Jenkins: Drop-in?
Gordon George: Yeah, where people that can go- they have all kinds of classes. They
haveToby Jenkins: Fitness center.
Gordon George: Dancing, yeah, all the- bunch of stuff that they do.
Toby Jenkins: They help you with your taxes.
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: Help you navigate Medicare and finding the right insurance.
Gordon George: Right. Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: So do you enjoy volunteering with Life Senior Services?
Gordon George: Oh, yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Do they know you're gay?
Gordon George: Well, I would think so.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. But you always feel welcome there?
Gordon George: Oh, yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. Very good.
31
�Gordon George: Not a problem.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you- I'll say this as a PSA. What you're doing by volunteering and
serving our community, the whole community, that does more to help us make sure
that we create an inclusive community for LGBTQ people because we're visible and
we're helping out where it's needed, instead of silo-ing ourself and isolating ourself.
Gordon George: Right.
Toby Jenkins: That's my PSA. Do you find that to be true?
Gordon George: Yes, and we have several with the senior group here that also are
ambassadors.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. That do the volunteer programs?
Gordon George: Mm-hmm, that do this.
Toby Jenkins: Oh, cool, very cool. So let's think about, an archeologist uncovers these
archives in a 100 years and he's gonna look at your interview and what message do you
want to give to those who come after us. Or maybe young people today who just are not
sure how all this came to be. They just think it's always been like this. What would be
your message to the future and to people? Young people today about what would you
message would you give them?
Gordon George: They have privileges that older people have worked for to appreciate
those privileges and to work on keeping those privileges and to help support the LGBTQ
community and get involved, stay involved. And keep working, 'cause it's never- it's
gonna be an uphill battle no matter how long it's gonna be. 'Cause you're always gonna
have people that don't like our community and it's gonna be an uphill, ongoing battle.
Toby Jenkins: Alright.
Gordon George: And keep doing it. Keep the battle going.
Toby Jenkins: Anything else?
Gordon George: No, I don't think so.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dennis Neill, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality and Toby
Jenkins, we've been present for this interview. We conclude our interview with Gordon
George, affectionately known as GG around Oklahomans for Equality.
Toby Jenkins: Thank you for tuning in for this broadcast.
Gordon George: I appreciate it. Thank you.
32
�
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[Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews
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<strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong>
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[2026] Gordon George Interview
Description
An account of the resource
In this conversation, Gordon George shares his life story, detailing his experiences growing up in Kansas, moving to Tulsa, and discovering his identity as a gay man. He reflects on the challenges he faced in school, his involvement in the LGBTQ community, and the impact of the AIDS crisis. Gordon discusses his journey of coming out to his family, the importance of volunteering, and the progress of LGBTQ rights over the years. He emphasizes the need for continued activism and support for future generations.
Subject
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Gordon George Oral History Project from February 3, 2026
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Gordon George, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill
Date
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February 3, 2026
2026
AIDS
AIDS/HIV
Gordon George
HIV/AIDs
interview
OKEQ Oral History Project
oral history
oral history interview
Oral History Project
oral history transcript
Toby Jenkins
transcript
video
-
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/435bd10a9a8e0b5ef931d948f297090a.mp4
4ef6716f63d546c816ab61a5f578616b
https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/fae96376eec4ca3c281596cf3b6bbca3.pdf
b089230dcee36302c98fe3837d5c5760
PDF Text
Text
Oklahomans for Equality
Oral History Interview
with
Greg Gatewood
Interview Conducted by Dennis Neill
Date: January 15, 2026
Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Riverside Studio AI, February 4,
2026
Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A
Oklahomans for Equality
History Project
621 E. 4th Street
Tulsa, OK. 74120
918.743.4297
historyproject@okeq.org
1
�About Greg Gatewood
Summary
In this engaging conversation, Greg Gatewood shares his life story, beginning with his
upbringing in rural Wyandotte, Oklahoma. He reflects on his childhood experiences,
including his education at Oklahoma State University, where he pursued architecture. Greg
discusses the close-knit community of his small school, his involvement in sports, and his
early interests in agriculture through the Future Farmers of America (FFA). He also touches
on his family dynamics, highlighting the influence of his parents and siblings on his
formative years.
As the conversation progresses, Greg opens up about his journey of self-discovery
regarding his sexual orientation, coming out as a gay man during his time at OSU in the
mid-1980s. He recounts the challenges he faced growing up in a religious family and the
societal pressures of the time. Greg's narrative shifts to his involvement in the LGBTQ
community in Tulsa, detailing his volunteer work at the Tulsa Gay Community Center and
his role in organizing Pride events. His reflections provide insight into the evolution of
LGBTQ rights and visibility in Oklahoma, showcasing both personal and communal growth
over the years. In this episode, the speakers reflect on their experiences and pivotal
moments in the LGBTQ+ community, particularly focusing on the establishment and
evolution of the Tulsa Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, and Community Center. They
recount a poignant story from November 2000, when a man drove all night to seek refuge
and support at the center after coming out to his wife. This encounter highlights the
center's role as a safe haven and resource for individuals in crisis. The conversation also
2
�delves into the personal connections formed within the community, including the speakers'
own relationship and their involvement in various initiatives, such as the Pyramid Project
and Pride events, which aimed to foster inclusivity and support for LGBTQ+ individuals in
Tulsa.
As the discussion progresses, the speakers share their memories of significant events,
including the impact of Matthew Shepard's death on the community and the importance of
activism in raising awareness. They reflect on their roles in organizing Pride events and the
challenges faced in advocating for LGBTQ+ rights. The episode concludes with a sense of
nostalgia and gratitude for the friendships and connections made through their work,
emphasizing the ongoing journey toward equality and acceptance.
Keywords
Greg Gatewood, LGBTQ history, Oklahoma State University, coming out, Pride events, Tulsa
Gay Community Center, rural upbringing, architecture, family dynamics, gay rights,
LGBTQ+, Tulsa Community Center, Pride events, Matthew Shepard, LGBTQ+ activism,
community support, coming out stories, LGBTQ+ history, safe spaces, personal
connections
Takeaways
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
•
"I grew up on a farm, small farm."
"I was in FFA, Future Farmers of America."
"I came out at OSU in 1986."
"Growing up religious, there was a lot of guilt."
"We wanted to be more visible."
"I was volunteer of the year in 97."
"We had a very active movie night where we'd show the movies."
"I had every intention of going back to Houston when I graduated."
"I was in charge of the festival for the 99 Pride."
"We chose Boulder Park and moved the date, made it more visible." 'I didn't know
where to go. I didn't know what to do.'
'It's just, I don't know what I would have done.'
'Naming is a very big thing.'
'We probably had 300 people there.'
'She was the mother of a lot of gay guys here in Tulsa.'
'That was probably during the Pride of 2007.'
3
�•
•
•
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'We went to every bar on Friday and Saturday night.'
'I could write some, I could write good too.'
'That really did help that event.'
'It's hard to believe it's been 30 years.'
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Early Life
01:33 Growing Up in Wyandotte, Oklahoma
07:41 College Life at Oklahoma State University
10:41 Coming Out and LGBTQ Identity
23:41 Faith and Family Dynamics
35:34 Building the Honors College and Early Career
36:48 Involvement with TOHR and Early Pride Events
39:39 Challenges and Triumphs of Organizing Pride
41:29 The First Pride Parade: A Pivotal Moment
50:53 The Sign Controversy and Community Response
53:10 Finding a New Home for the Community Center
59:23 Personal Connections: Meeting Carrie and Building Community
01:12:45 Transitioning Leadership and Expanding Pride
01:19:20 Memorable Moments and Community Impact
01:34:02 Reflections on Activism and Legacy
__________________________________________________________________________________
4
�Dennis Neill: I'm Dennis Neill and we're at the Equality Center in the Nancy and Joe
McDonald Rainbow Library. It is January the 15th, 2026 and I have the pleasure of
interviewing Greg Gatewood. So Greg, would you please state your name and your age and
the place you were born?
Greg Gatewood: Hi, I'm Greg Gatewood, the age of 60 as of last year, and I was born in
Neosho, Missouri. I grew up in rural Oklahoma, Wyandotte, Oklahoma.
Dennis Neill: And can you tell us a little bit about your experience growing up in
Wyandotte, including your education?
Greg Gatewood: Well, I said I grew up in rural Oklahoma, so I grew up on a farm, a small
farm. My grandparents had a large farm, a big dairy farm, and they lived next to my other set
of grandparents, so I had a lot of land to roam. So I grew up in the country, went to graduate
from Wyandotte High School a few years ago in 1983, and then went to Oklahoma State
University.
Dennis Neill: And what did you major in at Oklahoma State?
Greg Gatewood: In architecture.
Dennis Neill: And how many years were you at Oklahoma State?
Greg Gatewood: The program was five years, the architecture program. I was there six. I
took a break because they changed some rules in mid-school year, and getting to
professional school was a big decision.
Dennis Neill: So talking a little bit more about your early years, what was your involvement
with your family, the farm, and then tell us a little bit about the peers that you were growing
up with in Wyandotte, what you found pleasurable and some of the unpleasurable
experiences as a youth in Wyandotte?
Greg Gatewood: Well, I had a good childhood, I mean, overall, I mean, like I said, I grew up
in the country, but went to a small school, so we had, in small school Oklahoma, with 50, I
think I graduated with 56 people, so you knew everybody, you knew what everyone did, you
knew what everyone did last night, you even knew what everyone was going to do
tomorrow, because you knew. Always. But growing up, it was, overall, it was good, I played
football, I was in FFA, I was always active and, well, I didn't play baseball because we didn't
have baseball in Wyandotte.
5
�We had basketball and football in sports, so I played football, basketball one year. I was not
coordinated enough to run and shoot at the same time, so I did play football and track one
year. That wasn't a good thing for me, but it was FFA, I was very big in FFA, Future Farmers
of America, I was in the forestry team, which is, you judge trees. I can tell you, I can look at
a tree, I used to be able to look at a tree and tell you the name, the botanical name, could it
make pulpwood, could it make saw logs, and was pretty good at it.
But I didn't choose that path to be a forester, because you're outside a lot in the winter, so
instead I focused on architecture. But always growing up, I was kind of the artistic child. I
had an older sibling, he's my late brother, he is like a small version of my father, he's very
much similar to my father. My sister is kind of a mix of the two families, I take after my
mother's side of the family, so I'm the middle child, I'll just say that, I'm the middle child.
But yeah, my siblings, we grew up on a dirt road out in the country, half a mile from the
highway, so we rode bikes back and forth on dirt road, horrible, horrible wrecks on that dirt
road, I remember once, and more than once, and on lots of hills, we grew up in a very hilly
area, so we'd push my sister down on the hood of a car as a sled, for her to test out the
chump on that big hill, we still talk about that today.
Dennis Neill: Are you still close to your sister?
Greg Gatewood: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dennis Neill: Where does she live?
Greg Gatewood: She was in, now she lives in Wyandotte, Oklahoma. She moved back to
Wyandotte.
Dennis Neill: Now, geographically, place Wyandotte for us?
Greg Gatewood: It is near Miami, Oklahoma, in Ottawa County, in an extreme northeast
section of Oklahoma, or extreme northeast county.
Dennis Neill: So did you ever show farm animals?
Greg Gatewood: Oh yeah, well no, no I did not. Although my grandfather was a dairy farmer
and my other grandfather was a beef farmer. And I was in FFA, and I knew, I certainly fed the
cows and fed the hogs and knew I would do all that. My projects in FFA were trees, because
that was just what my brother had gotten into and was very good at. So, and I kind of
followed that up.
Dennis Neill: And can you tell us a little bit about your parents, what their profession was?
6
�Greg Gatewood: Well, my mom and dad met when my parents, when my dad's parents
moved into the big dairy farm next door to my mom's parents. That's how they met. And
they moved there in 60, 1960. They got married in 1961. Nine months later, almost to the
day, my brother was born. It was a quick honeymoon, it was a productive honeymoon to the
day, to the day. I forgot what I was gonna talk about.
Dennis Neill: Oh, your professions of your parents.
Greg Gatewood: Oh, yeah, but dad was a machinist. He worked at BF Goodrich in Miami,
Oklahoma for years until it shut down in 86. Then he moved and worked in Springfield and
finished up his career in Tamco, which is in Joplin, Missouri, as a machinist. Mom, she
graduated from NEO A&M in Miami and was born in Tonkawa, Oklahoma. He grew up to be
a son of seven siblings. He's the middle son, too. But then I grew up on a dairy farm,
obviously. My mom grew up in rural Oklahoma as well. She met my dad when they moved in
next door.
Greg Gatewood: She's been a homemaker, she's been, for the majority of her life, she was
secretary at Wyandotte Public Schools, elementary school, and at that time in the 70s, you
weren't just secretary, you were like the secretary, the nurse, the counselor, because it's a
small school, they didn't have a nurse, so if a child got hurt, the secretary took care of that.
So she was kinda all that, retired from that.
Dennis Neill: I'm sorry, what year did you start at OSU? I started at OSU in 1984.
Dennis Neill: Okay, and tell us a little bit about your time at OSU, where you lived, were you
part of a fraternity, other social organizations, and your overall experience while you were at
Oklahoma State.
Greg Gatewood: Well, I started at OSU, at Oklahoma State University for folks in, like I said,
1984, I went to, I'd had a year, first went to NEO A&M in Miami, I had a scholarship there. So
I was just 15 miles from the house, but then I went, I enrolled there, and they said, well,
there's no, you need to get down to Stillwater. So I went on down there just after one year at
NEO. And going there, I lived in Bennett Hall, lived in, because I was choosing a more
economical path, I went into an un-airconditioned dorm. It was one of the largest dorms
when it was built, largest dorm in the US. It was over five miles of hallways, it's a big dorm.
And it was a dorm then, it was a dorm. But great times, OSU was really good. The dorm life
there, other than Bennett Hall, for two years, had a great time. Turned out, turns out that
seven of the guys on that floor, on my floor alone, are now out gay men, in Tulsa.
Dennis Neill: Oh, wow.
7
�Greg Gatewood: Yeah, there's quite a few of us on my floor.
But, of course, I majored in architecture. That meant you spent most of your time in
architecture studio, in the architecture building. In fact, if you didn't spend enough time
according to the professors, they would happily fill out the drop slip for you and leave it on
your desk, and when you found it, you were expected to drop. So, we spent four hours in
studio every day. And that's class time, and then you're expected to spend probably four to
five more hours every day in studio.
Dennis Neill: Were you in the old armory?
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, the old armory. Yeah, yeah. Now it's been really built, they've added
two big additions on now that we just had a simple, seemed like an unheated studio to do
our work in.
Dennis Neill: You mentioned your floor mates. Are you still in touch with any of them that
have moved to Tulsa?
Greg Gatewood: Not really, well, there's a few. Well, there's, on my floor, there was Brad
Mulholland, Tim Brown, Michael Smith, Randy Jones, Michael and Tim were roommates
down at the end of the hall. And then Brad was in the center, Randy was in the center, and
then there was a couple of them in, the Rotsi guy, I can't remember his name. But, they're
all living in Tulsa. We're not close, but I know who they are. Keep in touch with them and
stuff.
Dennis Neill: So how do you identify as far as your orientation?
Greg Gatewod: Oh, as gay, as a gay man, which, speaking of Oklahoma State, I go to
college, I was gonna talk about that. I keep in contact more, that's when I went out. I came
out at OSU in the, probably in 86, I think, so I would be 21, you know. Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah,
that was 1986.
Dennis Neill: So prior to that, what kind of led up to you deciding that it was time to come
out? Talk a little bit about your feelings and how it developed over time until that point in
1986.
Greg Gatewood: Well, that can bring up all kinds of things there. I grew up in a very
religious family.
Dennis Neill: What faith?
8
�Greg Gatewood: Methodist, Methodist. In fact, the Methodist church that I grew up in is
now no longer Methodist because of the gay issue. They left the Methodist denomination a
couple years ago, which my brother and my father and my mother and my sister of all, my
family, all voted to leave Methodist church after I'd been out for, you know, I don't know, 30
years.
So, but anyway, that's another subject. But yeah, so growing up religious is, there was,
because I figured, I realized I was gay or was attracted to guys, probably in eighth grade, if I
remember correctly, Gino Fleener. Not that I remember the name. but yeah, I remember
that. But that's for, so growing up, I was, I never really had any girlfriends. I knew if I needed
a date to the prom, I could date. But I didn't really have any girlfriends at all, growing up or
ever. So I think I may have been called Gay Gator. Gator was my name, nickname growing
up.
Greg Gatewood: My brother was called Gator. My uncle was called Gator. It was just a
tradition that the Gatewood boys were called Gator. My sister was called Little Gator. But
anyway, so at one point I remember I was called Gay Gator. And this was in, I was in junior
high, so in the 70s, yeah. But I also had, I came from a good family in that county. I came
from the Gatewood family, which in the rural Oklahoma, it matters why your last name is.
But the Gatewoods…and you could, you had the right name, the right last name.
Greg Gatewood: Because my family were big farmers, everybody knew the Gatewoods in
that county. So I was, I could, I played football. That was good, I was in FFA. I didn't, I didn't
have any girlfriends. I was pretty sure I was gay. I can't remember if I really had a word. You
had thoughts. But no actions. I didn't really have a problem, I didn't think of it growing up, I
guess. I mean, I thought of it, I definitely thought of it, but then you'd have severe guilt. And
then, and then I went to college at OSU.
So when you went to, you went to university, you know, you're out and alone. You're out on
yourself, by yourself for the first time. I was in a dorm room for the first time, or living on my
own for the first time. Well, I remember this is, in a dorm room, just bored, or not bored, but
I had, the first two weeks, I didn't have a roommate there, my first year there, but then I got
one. Then I got a roommate, and he was good at architecture too, which is good, and I
thought that was good.
And it turned out that we were in the same class, one of the architecture 2,003 in class, and
I was reading his notes, and then at the end of that notebook was a pretty descriptive story
of earlier that afternoon in our dorm room, and it turned out he was a closet gay guy. And I
learned a lot, or not learned a lot, but I recognized that from his story in this classroom
notebook and he moved out very shortly after. After that he was moved to a different dorm.
9
�But, like I said, there's a lot of I don't know. It was in at OSU, my first semester. I would say
there that I met some guys and became friends with them, became friends. I have some
really good friends. They're still my best friends. They're from college.
Dennis Neill: How about, while you were at OSU, were you involved in? Was there like an
LGBTQ group there?
Greg Gatewood: Well, there's, I have a lot of friends. It was in the 80s and it's still our
Oklahoma. There was a group now. Well, like I said, I came out, there was there's. Was it
Boomer Lake? I don't know why Stillwater has a lake called Boomer Lake, but there's
Boomer Lake and there's shelter number six and that's where all those gay guys that were
out and some that weren't- that's a lot that weren't. We'd just hang out.
Greg Gatewood: So we'd go and hang out to shelter number six and just hang out and
there'd be- there could be- 20-30 guys under 21 because we were too young to go to bars.
Then this is so we'd just be hanging out there and just you know, just your college guys, for
the love of God. And that's when there was Richard Gordon, who is a still friend of mine,
who's in Dallas now. He was president of students for Homosexual Awareness, which was
a gay group in Stillwater's student group with not, admittedly, not the best name in the
world- students for Homosexual Awareness- but he would go around to psych classes and
human sexuality classes and this is in the mid 80s, 85,, 86, and talk about being gay and
and was proud. I mean he was very out, he was very out. He grew up here in Tulsa.
I was, I was out from, well, definitely my sophomore year I was pretty much out, but not
necessarily to my family, but everybody in Stillwater. I didn't come out necessarily and tell
people, but just your friends, there was in the student union in the food court. We had a and
there may have been some hollering students and stuff. You could. You could pretty much
tell yeah, that's a gay table, it's a table of gay guys because they tend to holler at other guys.
We didn't care, we really didn't care if they knew, but yeah, so Richard was the president,
student for homosexual awareness and a brave, brave individual, very brave.
Dennis Neill: So was it a recognized student…?
Greg Gatewood: I don't know if it was a recognized student group
Dennis Neill: But like, did you all have regular meetings?
There were none students … we would have a meeting, I think at a speaker perhaps. So it
may have been a recognized. It probably was a recognized group.
Dennis Neill: So where did you meet?
10
�Greg Gatewood: Usually in a classroom. There was a classroom building and there would
be in one of those classrooms usually. So I only went to a couple of meetings.
Dennis Neill: You talked about the table where you all would gather. Were you ever really
harassed while you were on campus about being gay or any of these members that were
associated? Do you think it was a welcoming environment or just kind of a…?
Greg Gatewood: Well, I think people knew because they're not stupid and you could tell. I
mean Randy Jones and Eric- I can't remember his last name- they would go, they both knew
French, so they were talking in French with an Arkansas twang. It was odd and there would
be some gay innuendos in those things, in those things they would say so we just had a
good time. But there was some speaking for myself, I'm sure there was. I'm just I'm sure
there was, but speaking for myself, I didn't. I've never had too much of anti-gay backlash
directly at me because one I'm 6'1 and I just, I've never had that as much as some guys
have. Except when I fully came out, it was third year, I think, in architecture, and you're
divided into classes, and you're different years. And Richard came up to me, he came to the
studio one night, and he, of course, everyone knew Richard Gordon because he went
around to classes and spoke. And he was like, a bunch of us are going to Bobo's. Bobo's is a
Mexican restaurant in Stillwater at that point. We're going to Bobo's to have margaritas, you
wanna go? It's like 11 o'clock at night at the studio.
So I was like, sure, I'll go. So I dropped everything, go, we start going down the hallway, or
get down the first floor, I come back up, because I'd forgotten my keys. The entire class, 40
people, or about 40 people, were sitting around, had gathered around someone's desk, it
was close to mine, they had gathered around that desk, and were talking. I could tell, I
could hear it, because this was probably a couple of minutes after I'd left, came back up
there because I'd forgotten my keys and couldn't go.
They were all talking about me because they'd seen that Richard Gordon, who was a known
gay guy, came and got me, and we were going out to drinks. So that was a topic of
discussion, that was, I think, my third year. But I didn't get any blowback and flak about
that. I mean, I'm sure there were closeted gay guys in that class at that point. I would lay
money on it.
Dennis Neill: Do you know, did the Students for Homosexual Awareness had a faculty
advisor?
Greg Gatewood: I don't, I don't believe so, off the top of my head, but I'm not for sure.
There was, my last year in architecture at OSU, there was a gay professor who was
closeted, semi-closeted, but semi-out. And then, now I think about the first, one of the first
11
�openly gay guys that I saw at OSU was because I saw his TOHR sticker on his banner in the
studio, and that was, if I can remember his name, Roger Barton.
Dennis Neill: What did he, he was a professor?
Greg Gatewood: No, he was a student. He was an architecture student. He was a little
older guy, but he had a TOHR sticker on his area, in your desk when you worked, in your
studio.
Dennis Neill: He must have been from Tulsa.
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, he was from Tulsa, and I think at that time it was TOHR.
Dennis Neill: I wonder if he's still around?
Greg Gatewood: I don't know, I don't know, because I hadn't thought of his name until just
now. But that was in, yeah, 84, 84, spring of 84, spring of 85, and it was clear, he was out.
He would bring his partner up to the studio. He didn't care.
Dennis Neill: So, to reflect back a little bit on, you mentioned the Methodist church that
you grew up on, very conservative. So, walk us through a little bit about your experience
with religion and faith, both your own and then with your family, and then as you've
progressed through life, what is your feeling about being out in your faith community, and
has it been an issue within the circle of your family and friends?
Greg Gatewood: Well, growing up in Oklahoma, Oklahoma's, you know, lots of people, or
faith is a major thing in a lot of people's lives, and faith is an obstacle, maybe an obstacle in
a lot of people's lives. Like I said, I grew up Methodist, but the church was affiliated
Methodist. Growing up, we had an Assembly of God preacher. So, it was more of a,
Assembly of God slant, I guess, because, you know, there was speaking in tongues. That,
and it was a country, very much a country church. Of course, growing up, I kind of figured,
like I said, when I, probably eighth grade, I remember thinking, you know, I'm different. I'm
attracted to guys.
And you didn't hear much about the, and I don't recall hearing much about that in church
growing up, as far as, if I did, it was gonna be bad, I can almost guarantee that. But only in
recent years. So I came out in the 80s. I came out to my family in the early 90s completely.
Fully. A couple years after graduation from OSU. I stopped going to the church I grew up in
when Monte Sundy, the preacher, went on a rant of anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-Muslim, so
much other stuff. I was like, I'm never going to go there. And I haven’ stepped foot in that
church again except for…
12
�Dennis Neill: And how old were you then?
Greg Gatewood: Probably in my 40s. It's been over a decade. I've gone back for a funeral.
But that's the only reason.
Dennis Neill: And this is your home church?
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, the home church. It was Sycamore Chapel, United Methodist
Church. Little country church. But my grandfather, the big, dirty farmer, gave acreage so he
could build the park and stuff. Or the fellowship hall and stuff. Although he went to a
different church. Growing up with a strong religious background, and then coming to realize
that you're attracted to guys. And then the guilt. And if you would, just by thinking about
stuff, the guilt. I graduated high school in 83. I was going to church. I was in high school in
the 80s, almost 70s. High school in the 80s. And also in the 80s, AIDS hit big time. It was in
the news a lot. So that was another whole other factor on that. I remember things being
told, in my family, at family gatherings about AIDS killing all the right people. After I came
out, I heard, you'll just get AIDS and die from family members. And there's a lot of religious
aspects of that.
When the first time I came out, or the first time that Kerry came with me to some family
wedding, I think my brother and my cousin talked to me. And I probably had 25 people
there, those family members. They just refused to talk to me. Still to this day. But it's gotten
better over 26 years.
Dennis Neill: So are your parents still alive?
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, both of them are, yes. Both are in their mid-80s.
Dennis Neill: And have they accepted where you are?
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, it's gotten better, it's gotten better. I mean, like I said, Sycamore
Chapel United Methodist Church is now Sycamore Chapel Church because they left the
Methodist Church because, as I pointed out, they hate gay people. I kind of told them that.
Because I left the Methodist Church. I was required to send a letter. And I was kind of blunt
in that letter. But yeah, when the church I grew up in, and I'm not, at this point in my life, no,
I'm not religious at all. I mean, point blank.
Dennis Neill: So take us, you graduated what year from OSU?
Greg Gatewood: 1990.
Dennis Neill: Okay, and then take us through the next few years. How have you developed?
13
�Greg Gatewood: Well, in the summer of 89, I lived in Houston. I had every intention of
going back to Houston when I graduated, every intention.
Dennis Neill: Were you interning down there?
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, I interned that summer down there. My uncle had an architectural
engineering firm, and he got me a job, basically, at an architecture firm. So I worked for
them for a summer. I had an apartment there for a summer.
I had every intention, one, desire to go back because I had a lot of fun in Houston that
summer. And I implored him to go back, but that didn't work out. It wasn't just, architecture
wasn't hiring, necessarily. It wasn't really good in 1990. So I ended up in Tulsa. I moved, I
graduated on May 4th and started my job on June 4th. So that's how much time I've given
myself a month to get a job. So I started there, moved here, had a, was dating someone at
that point that lived in Tulsa. That didn't last very long.
It seems like when I first moved to Tulsa, I would move apartments about every year. I
moved to a lot of apartments. I lived downtown. Before downtown was popular, I was
downtown at 8th and Cincinnati, way before anyone was. That building's no longer here.
They tore it down after we remodeled the building. Mark Henry's parents, or dad, owned it.
He owned it, and we remodeled that building, he tore it down.
Dennis Neill: I remember that building, because he lived there for a while.
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, he lived there, he lived right down below. Yeah, we filled it up with
an architecture student friend of mine, a young girl, and then an older lady lived on the third
floor, too, and four gay guys. And then they announced they were gonna close the building
down, and we all moved out. After I'd recruited Michelle, my college classmate, to move
down there. We should've moved down there in less than two months, and we all moved,
because they were gonna tear the building down. Anyway, I digress. But yeah, I moved to
Tulsa in 1990. I was out at that point, I was an out gay man. But I'd go to bars and stuff like
that.
And then, I remember the first time I went, and I don't know if I've told you this before, I
maybe have, Tulsa was getting ready to do a, what's it, discrimination ordinance in the city
of Tulsa, maybe, at some level, for the city of Tulsa. And it was in the news, and there were
meetings. And I went, I think it was at the library or the civic center, it was you and Nancy
McDonald and some other people on the stage. And there was a large group of people, and
lots of screaming and yelling.
Dennis Neill: Worst time of my life.
14
�Greg Gatewood: Yelling, screaming, gnashing of teeth. There was, I'll never forget that
meeting.
Dennis Neill: I won't either.
Greg Gatewood: And that was in 93, 94?
Dennis Neill: 1994.
Greg Gatewood: And yeah, I remember that. And that was when I was like, huh. So I
started volunteering in, I think it was 96.
Dennis Neill: And where were we located then?
Greg Gatewood: TOHR offices were at 41st and Harvard. Yeah, they were at 41st and
Harvard in the pink, no they're not pink. Yeah.
Dennis Neill: So you came aboard right about as they were …
Greg Gatewood: Right before they moved to the first Pride Center.
Dennis Neill: So were you involved in the move to…?
Greg Gatewood: I, well, like I said, I first volunteered at that little office, and then they
moved the center. I kind of lost track of, I think. I was, I had a other boyfriend at that point.
We donated money, I think, for the new center. But I didn't go, but then I started
volunteering. It opened in 96, didn't it? Yeah, the first center opened in 96. And I think I
started volunteering there in 97.
Dennis Neill: When you were on 41st and Harvard, was that to work the hotline?
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, yeah, the little hotline. And they had a community room too, I think,
maybe. They had meetings. But it was a little hotline, little small little room. And I
remember there was, I think there was a dry erase board with numbers written on it,
maybe. And there was sheets, maybe, you know.
Dennis Neill: And were we still just doing the hotline in the evenings?
Greg Gatewood: Hotline in the evenings, yeah, six to nine, I think. Or six to 10, maybe.
Dennis Neill: We would respond to any messages, right, that were left on the answering
machine, and all that, that's interesting. So when you came here and you got involved with
this architectural firm, are there some projects that are notable that you were involved
with? In architecture?
15
�Greg Gatewood: Oh my, that I want to lay claim to?
Dennis Neill: Were you kind of residential, commercial, or?
Greg Gatewood: My architecture firm, the architecture firms that I worked for, or the main
one I worked for a long time, or the one that I worked for nine years, focused more on
commercial. So if there's a St. Louis building, or now Panera Bread, a Panera Bread in
Tulsa, or a Homeland that's now closed, or Reasers, I probably worked on it at some point,
because we did Reasers and Homelands, and Panera Breads, and lots of apartment
complexes. If you see a red case, cube.
Dennis Neill: Oh yeah, Case Property.
Greg Gatewood: We did a lot of Case Property stuff, so little fences and fence sets. This is
in the early 90s. Not a lot of buildings were being built, by any means, but little fences and
fence sets around apartment buildings. Remodels of apartment complexes, remodels of
apartment buildings, remodels of grocery stores, Reasers, all kinds of stuff like that. In
office build-outs, office appearance.
Dennis Neill: So you were with them until 1999?
Greg Gatewood: 1999, then I moved to, or 98. Moved to a lot of Christian Shore, which is
another firm, which is a firm here in town. And I did, my main building there was, I did an
OU, the OU Honors College. It was good, it was for the Honors College. David Boren was
president. We did a little addition to the Honors College and they're close, close to the, I
think it's close to the stadium, football stadium there.
Dennis Neill: So were you out in your work environment as well?
Greg Gatewood: I guess, yeah.
Dennis Neill: Any issues?
Greg Gatewood: No, in the architecture world, it's kind of not expected, but, but, but, you
know, gonna run into one or two at least.
Dennis Neill: Yeah.
Greg Gatewood: I think there's, even in architecture, there were two gay guys, almost at all
points, at all times, there were two gay guys or a gay guy and a lesbian working there all the
time. I don't know why.
Dennis Neill: So your rich history with TOHR started in 1996, it sounds like, correct?
16
�Greg Gatewood: It must have, yeah.
Dennis Neill: So kind of walk us through that, and of course, really highlight your
involvement with getting the first Pride permit and your involvement from that point on.
Greg Gatewood: Oh, we're gonna go over an hour now. Okay.
Dennis Neill: No, we're actually only at 36 minutes.
Greg Gatewood: I thought I'd been rambling and making no sense. Okay, oh goodness. So
like I said, you saw I started volunteering in 96, it was the center, or not the center, it was
the offices, and then when I moved to the first center, the Pride Center, at 38th and Peoria, I
remember Steve Horn, Steve Horn was a volunteer coordinator at that point.
Greg Gatewood: He was the president the next year, but I think Tom Neal was president, I
think, when it was down there, I'm gonna say.
Dennis Neill: I think that's correct.
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, yeah, because, yeah, I started volunteering there on Tuesday
nights, once a week. Then I started coming down there and they wanted to do other things,
I'd come down and start doing some other stuff, volunteered for Pride, I think it was 97,
yeah, when Pride was at Owen Park for a couple years.
I think that's because Toby has told me this, he's like, I was told to tell him to do trash stuff
at Owen Park, I don't recall that at all, so it must have been, had to be 97, but that was the
first year I think of Pride, it was 97, but was volunteer of the year in 97, started doing some
other stuff down there at the center, then joined the board in 1998.
1998 was a very memorable year for TOHR, now OkEq, because it was my first year on the
board, we had taken over store, the Pride store was in there, it was run by somebody else at
that point, until that point, but TOHR bought them out. So when I became a board member,
I and Steve Horn and Ken Southern, that was later in the year, we started spending a lot of
time trying to get the center, we had that store, we wanted to make it profitable, that was a
source of income.
I think we were making six or seven hundred dollars a month off the store, and that was, we
needed the money. But in 1998 also, as a new board member, the biggest decision I ever
made at that point was HOPE, we spun off HOPE in the first couple months of that year.
There were some financial difficulties or improprieties, you might say, and some dangers
that could have happened.
17
�So there was a board meeting in which HOPE, which is Health, then it was HIV Outreach
Prevention Education, but now it's Health, I think Health Outreach Prevention Education, it
was a program of TOHR, saying that there had been some issues going on, and so it was in
the best interest for it to be split off into its own non-profit, because to be honest, from
what was I told from state office people, or state office, state people, that if something
didn't happen, then the state would close you down. So, it was split off.
That was in 98, probably February, March, it was early 98. That was, yeah, that was split off.
Lost a couple board members over that because… it was a long-time board member
walked out of the room then. So it was tumultuous. But I think since that happened, both
TOHR now OkEq, and HOPE have now both grown in different, I mean, I think HOPE is doing
good up to OkEq, HOPE is now where, look where they are. Look where OkEq is and Hope.
But yeah, that was a tough decision. But then Pride started, of course you had the center. I
think the center, it was called the Pride Center at that point, unofficially.
Everyone in the gay community center movement was renaming their centers then. So we
renamed it the Tulsa Gay Community Services Center. Again, bad name. And I can show
the logo, I'm sure it says, but anyway, we called it that then, we called it that. And then we
started to have, first we had Pride. We were gonna have, it was in June, so we were gonna
change, one, we wanted to change it and become way more visible. Me, Steve Horn and
Rick Martin.
So we decided we're gonna, instead of Owen Park or Mohawk Park, we just like, we wanted
it to be more visible. It's like, the city gave us three choices, I think was, what's it, [Boulder
Park[ it's called Dream Keepers Park now. Dream Keepers Park was a choice. A park,
Haikey Creek Park, believe it or not, was also a choice somehow, but that was a county
park. And some park, I think it's the park out at like 61st and Memorial in that area. There's a
park in there, that was a choice we had.
We could have it at Owen Park if we had the boy scouts park cars, and you didn't want that
at that point. So we chose Boulder Park and moved the date and moved the location, made
it more visible. And there have been marches going on in 96 and, I think, no, the first one
was in 97, maybe, I think, the march at Owen Park. 98 was gonna be the second march. So
Rick started doing stuff for the march. And so he has marches the short ways, I think from
downtown somewhere to Boulder Park or Dream Keepers Park.
And when Rick was getting, or talking to somebody, I don't know if you had a permit or not
for to walk on the sidewalks, but the police chief at that point asked him, well, why aren't
you all having a parade? And this is in 98, and probably two or three weeks before the
actual date of parade. So, but yeah, parade, so you can't really pull off a parade in two
18
�weeks, because it's been tried. Can't get a permit. But we did start, it's like, well, it's gonna
happen the next year.
So before 98 Pride had happened, plans were already talked about for a parade in 99. So as
soon as that was over, we started plans for 99 and the first parade. And we kind of lucked
out, because we had a very dedicated group of people that were doing stuff. One reason is
because, not only is that the one reason, there were multiple reasons. In 98, we had
decided as a board that we need to increase TOHR's visibility and name and presence of
doing things. So we decided to have an event every month for the next 12 months.
Greg Gatewood: And you had a lot of stuff, we had Halloween parties. I mean, we didn't
have the business or the huge crowds, but Halloween parties to Superbowl parties to all
kinds of little gatherings. And we spent so much time. But that, but Pride was rolling
around. And so we changed locations for Dream Keepers Park. And we sent out a letter. I
was in charge of booths, so I started sending out letters to businesses. I got some very
positive feedback from some local businesses and gay groups. And started relationships
with Budweiser and various things.
Greg Gatewood: So in 99, well after 98 was over, we started playing from 99. And we were
fortunate that we got…He was Parade Chair, well Mitch was Parade Chair, Mitch Savage
was Parade Chair. He hired Ken Southerd, who was a long-time volunteer with TOHR at that
point. He basically hired him to do the parade. And then we had, oh my lordy, I forgot about
that, we had Barney Frank, who was the only out, who was the first out gay congressman in
the United States. And we had him as a, we were talking, it was like, who can we get as
Parade, Grand Marshal, he's gonna draw name interest that we can, you know, not pay,
because we need this to be free.
Greg Gatewood: So we had, someone wrote Barney Frank, and he accepted. So we had
people, he accepted, we didn't have to pay him, we didn't have to pay him, we don't pay
him. But we did fly him first class, so we had people trade in their points, so we could bump
him up to first class. That was probably Mitch, I think, or behind the scenes, Mitch and Ken
did a lot of work in, for the parade, for the parade, massive amounts.
Dennis Neill: And do you remember who reached out…Who came up with the idea and
reached out to Barney.
Greg Gatewood: I don't know, we were probably some planning meeting. Yeah. I don't
know who, whose idea it was, but the, of course, when he accepted, and I was, what was
good about that weekend, because he was a big, I was his host. Me and B.J. Kissinger, I
think, from the Democratic Party, were his co-hosts, so everywhere that Barney went, we
19
�had to be. I had hit my knee, sat in for pride that day, when Barney got in, I'd hit it with a, by
a soccer goal down at the park. We were moving it, it hit my knee, bumped it, it's swollen up
to the size of a softball by the next day. So I was hobbling around.
I got a really bad sunburn. I'll never forget that year. I got a bad sunburn from setting up. We
had that for dinner that night with Barney Frank. I was sunburned really bad. Yeah, that was
the first, that was, to me, in my mind, that's the first gala we had, actually.
Dennis Neill: Yeah, and if I recall right, and correct me if I'm wrong, Greg, it seems like the
dinner was at Greenwood Cultural Center.
Greg Gatewood: Greenwood Cultural Center, yes. That was in, we partnered with Cimarron
Alliance to get that building, to get that dinner done. It was at Greenwood Cultural Center.
And I think, I will say, I know we charged $75 a ticket, and then more, I think it was $50 more
for the reception beforehand. And then it was at Greenwood Cultural Center, we were
probably, me and Tim Williams, AFAB catering, catered it. We had a good turnout, we had a
good turnout.
Dennis Neill: And it seems like I remember, didn't we walk from there to reception at OSU,
or?
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, there was reception, yeah, there was, yeah, there was reception at
OSU, yeah.
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, and then their dinner was at Greenwood.
Dennis Neill: Okay, so it was first, yeah, reception first.
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, it was reception, I think, I think, I can't remember. I remember, I was
dressed in a tux, I had a really bad sunburn, And it was, and I was with Marty, and my knee
was hobbling. But that was, yeah, that was a very memorable year. 1999, the next, and
then, of course, the next day, we had an interfaith breakfast at 7 o'clock in the morning, for
some unknown reason, on a Sunday. I think Barney had to fly out early, that's because we,
so, yeah.
Dennis Neill: So what was your actual title with regard to that, 1999?
Greg Gatewood: Oh, I was in 99, oh, in 99, I was the first vice president of TOHR at that
point, but I was, it was for the, what did I do? I may have been in charge of the festival.
Dennis Neill: And you have an interesting story about when the sign first went up on
Brookside, do you want to share that story?
20
�Greg Gatewood: Okay, that was in 98, that was in 98. In 1998, like I said, we had moved
Pride to Dream Keepers Park because we wanted to be more visible. But we also wanted to
put a sign on the building to be visible. So we made a sign, it said, gay, in letters that were
like this tall, Gay Community Center and Pride Store. On one label on each side of the
street, one on Peoria and one on 38th Street. But when that label came in, we were going to
hang it up. This is me again, me, Steve Horn, and Rick Daniels. We did a lot in 1998. We got,
the banners came in, and we decided to hang them up.
We hung them up from the, we got on the roof, we hung them up, we had the Pride flag on
the flagpoles up the roof. We hung up one banner on 38th Street, we hung up the other
banner on Peoria. And we were up on the roof, and we were getting ready. And I said, I told
Rick and Daniel, I was like, you know, we've, this is going to cause a wreck. This is going to
cause, because we're on Peoria, something's going to happen. And we hadn't, we barely
got on the roof, it hadn't been ten minutes, if not five.
Greg Gatewood: And screeching of tires, metal clad, there was a wreck, directly in front of
the center. And I swear, it had to be the signs, it had to be the signs. Those signs caused
some issues later on.
Dennis Neill: speaking of those signs. Can you review that with us a little bit, about Kerry’s
involvement in that, because I recall, it seems like Mark Bonney might have been involved
in that dispute too.
Gret Gatewood: Yeah, there was a guy, well I don't know much about the law thing, what
happened there. But I was just, yeah, yeah, the signs, we hung up the signs, yeah, kind of,
well, we hung up the signs, because we want to be visible, we hung up the signs. We got
kicked out, we lost our lease because we hung up the signs. And there was, like you said,
Kerry, my husband, an attorney, and Mark Bonney, an attorney, were in legal, I know they, I
know, I really couldn't say what all was done by, what they all did by, because I wasn't privy
to all that.
Dennis Neill: So were you involved when we found the new space there on 21st?
Greg Gatewood: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dennis Neill: And talk a little bit about that, the move and how you located that property.
Greg Gatewood: Well, I had, Steve had left, that was in 2000, yeah. Steve and his boyfriend
had moved to Denver, I think, and right after Pride night, right after the first parade, they
moved.
Dennis Neill: Steve Horn?
21
�Greg Gatewood: Steve Horn, yeah, they moved, so I became president then. And that's
when all that was going, that's when all that was going, the other people handled all the
legal stuff. We had to find, we had a year, I guess, yeah, we had a year, but we didn't move
until 2000. But because we lost the lease, and there was a legal battle, we ended up
moving, having to move. We found the place at 21st and Memorial. One, it was very
economical, it was all bills paid, and quite economical. It needed a lot of work. It was kind
of half down, and it was hard to describe. Because you came in, and you had to go down
steps on either side, you had to go down. The accessible pathway was kind of a nightmare
to get there. But when we leased that, I remember I was president.
One of the things I remember about that is the different spaces we looked at, that was
gonna be the best. We had to do a lot of work to it. So we had some donors, myself and
another Kerry. Paint, paint, paint, paint. We painted that building, painted the interiors, but
had donors cover the cost of that. When we moved into that building, it was in October of
2000. Yeah, it was October 2000, as I had just left an architecture firm I was with that
morning. Well, not that morning, but earlier that month. Why did you ask me about the new
space?
Dennis Neill: What are your fond memories of being in that space? Oh, well, maybe not
just all fond. I mean, I remember it being very smoky because of the...
Greg Gatewood: The only place it was next to a bar. A lesbian bar.
Dennis Neill Was it TNT's?
Greg Gatewood: Was it TNT's? Yeah, I think it was TNT's. I forgot about that.
Dennis Neill: The other thing I remember is, one, we had a very active movie night where
we'd show the movies and have a decent number of people coming in.
Dennis Neill: And then, didn't Open Arms kind of get engaged?
Greg Gatewood: Oh, yeah, I forgot.
Dennis Neill: Did they start there?
Greg Gatewood: They did start there. Yeah, because, well, that place. We moved there in
October of 2000. Yeah, Open Arms got involved. Ken had an office over there, and they had
a youth group. It was a youth group. They started in there, in that area over on the left, on
the right side. Whatever direction that was.
22
�Yeah, there were movie nights. We had the Pride store. We had the quarterly or we had
membership meetings every month, I think, so we had to try to have a program. But on that
building in particular, in that space, there was one vivid memory is Election Day 2000
because I'd gone down to the center to do some stuff. I can't remember. It was snowing. It
was a cold day in 2000 on Election Day. I'd gone to the center. I was doing something, and I
got a call. This man had called, and he had driven all night from, I think, Wisconsin
somewhere.
He had some friends from ORU, and he'd come out as gay to his wife, and he had friends in
ORU. He knew he could stay with them. His little car was packed to the brim with
everything he had. So he called the center. We were closed because it was in the morning. I
said, well, come on down. Come to the center. We have a library. He asked about books
and stuff. So he came to the library or came to the center, and he read a couple books
while there, took two or three more home, and lent them out.
I think we went to lunch because it was Election Day, and I had things to do. And, of course,
it was Election Day when Bush 2 got elected. But I remember when he came in, he spent
probably four hours total at the center. He had spent all afternoon.
When he left, he's like, well, you have no idea how much this helped. He's like, I didn't know
where to go. I didn't know what to do. He looked in the phone book, found the gay hotline or
whatever it was. We were what that point we were called because, yeah, I forgot about that.
When we moved into that place, I was quite intimate, and I was president at that point, that
it would be called the Tulsa Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, and Community Center,
and it was all being put out there, spelled out. That was also being trimmed.
You wanted to spell it out, which we did. So he may have found that in the phone book at
that point. But, yeah, he came in. He's like, these books and just being able to come here
and talk. We talked for a while, too. He's like, it's just, I don't know what I would have done.
It was kind of alluring to a bad thing. But that was in November 2000. We had just moved.
We had been there a month. So probably not even a month.
Dennis Neill: I noticed something you put in your bio about something that also happened
that was important in 1999. If I've read this right, that's where you first met Kerry.
Greg Gatewood: Oh, yes.
Dennis Neill: Can you talk about that a little bit?
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, well, yeah, Kerry, we met. Well, we disagreed on this last time I was
writing that. I was like, was it a board meeting? Or, because he joined the board in 1999.
23
�Yeah, when he joined the board, we met. Or a membership meeting or a board meeting, we
met in 1999.
We started in 1999. We actually, now that I think about it, before we were officially dating,
we went to Starbucks at 51st and Harvard because we were on the board. And we had a
board retreat with Mitch. And he told us about the SWOT analysis. This is a new thing for all
of us. So being like Kerry and I went to Starbucks to write the mission statement. Because
there were purposes and stuff, but there was not really, to our knowledge, we couldn't find
it anywhere, a written mission statement. So at our little board retreat, Kerry was there and
we had a little thing, a practice you said, write down something emotional or something, I
can't remember what it was, mine was adult living in fear, a teenager near suicide.
Greg Gatewood: And that's, and Kerry, I can't remember what he'd written down, but we
were chosen to, well it's like, why don't you all take the stuff that everyone suggested and
compose some type of statement, mission statement. And that's where, at that point, Tulsa
Oklahomans for Human Rights, works for equality, through et cetera. And that's, because
at that point it was through, we listed all that, but the adult living in fear, teenager near
suicide was kind of an emotional case statement where we started from.
Greg Gatewood: But Kerry and I, that's when we met, was either a membership meeting or
a board meeting, and got together, we're told, start writing the case, or the mission
statement. And then we were dating before Pride, I think. Yeah.
Dennis Neill: The 1999 Pride.
Greg Gatewood: Before 1999 Pride, yeah, because when we came around the corner that
first time, I remember him sitting over there, it's weird that I remember certain things at that
first Pride.
Dennis Neill: And then did he succeed you as president?
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, I was president in half of 1999, 2000, he became president in 2001.
Dennis Neill: And then do you remember, would next be, was it Mark or Laura?
Greg Gatewood: Next was...
Greg Gatewood: Dee Beasley.
Dennis Neill: Okay.
Greg Gatewood: For a brief time. For a brief time. And then Brent Ortolani.
24
�Dennis Neill: Okay, right.
Greg Gatewood: Brent Ortolani took over from Dee.
Dennis Neill: So in 1999, you and Kerry got together, so you've been together all these
years.
Greg Gatewood: Ever since, ever since.
Dennis Neill: And you're married, is that correct?
Greg Gatewood: We are married.
Dennis Neill: Tell us a little bit about your ceremony, what made you decide to get
married?
Greg Gatewood: Our ceremony? Our ceremony was in the hallway of the courthouse. It
was very simple, very, and we're done. So that was pretty much it.
Dennis Neill: And what year was this?
Greg Gatewood: 2018.
Dennis Neill: Okay.
Greg Gatewood: October, I think. Yeah.
Greg Gatewood: It's either 10th or 11th. I think it's the 10th because we were getting ready
to go to Europe the next week. So, but that was kind of a trip.
Dennis Neill: So I think you stayed involved, right? Even after you stepped down as
president, stayed involved with...
Greg Gatewood: Oh, good lord, yeah. I was president in 2000, but, well, also in 2000, the
big thing, well, I mentioned we got kicked out in, well, we moved in 2000 to the 41st, or 21st
and Memorial location. Before we got kicked out, or before we moved, we actually started
the capital campaign, because, well, I consider, I don't know if that was 1999 or 2000. It
had to have been 2000. It was 2000.
Dennis Neill: So that's when the Brady Mansion thing was, I think.
Greg Gatewood: No, that was 2001.
Dennis Neill: Oh, 2001.
25
�Greg Gatewood: That was February 2001. But before that, there was what I call the Marty
Party at Martin Newman's. And this is when we were focused, still primarily focused on
Circle Center as the gay community center, because we had toured that at one point. Had
so many possibilities. But yeah, we had what I've referred to as the Marty Party, which was
at Martin Newman's house. And that's when we presented, we need to do this, you were
probably there. That's where we picked up Sue and Marcy, and some other people, a lot of
other people, on the capital campaign.
Greg Gatewood: That's when we officially started the capital campaign.
Dennis Neill: So who do you think originated the concept of the Pyramid Project? Both the
name and the...
Greg Gatewood: Well, we went through some of the names. It seems like in the gay
community, but in the larger community as a whole, naming is a very big thing. But yeah, I
want to say, when we first met, it was the original center at 38th and Peoria. I just got back
from that, from Creating Change. So yeah, I got back from... Creating Change is the
conference that I went to. I think it was Oakland at the time. I've just gotten back, so yeah,
it was in late 2000, or early, after Pride, but before October 2000, was probably when the
capital campaign started, I think. It started there in the original center, and then we moved
to the 21st and Memorial Center.
Dennis Neill: So did the name kind of come up through committee, or did someone…?
Greg Gatewood: Oh, the Pyramid Project, I think, yeah, it must have come up through
committee, because there were different names that were discussed and stuff, and
honestly, I don't remember at all who specifically came up with the name. I remember
when we first thought of this as, yeah, I want to say, well, Sue and Marcy got re-involved
from the very beginning of that, because she was, Sue was chair. I think we, yeah, she was
chair. She became chair in 2000, when we first started, I think.
Greg Gatewood: So they were big drivers of that, of the name and everything, I think,
because to be honest, there was probably just a little bit of hesitation, because pyramid
schemes, that was the first thing. I know there was a hesitation because of that name, but
it overall became a winner, I think. I do remember on a trip to Vegas, one time we were
thought, we need to do, because we'd been doing research on this capital campaign.
You know, you had donors, and you had to recognize your donors, and you needed all this
stuff, and someone had just taken a trip to Vegas, so they thought, we need to get little
pyramids. They sell them at Luxor, and we can have it in people's names. That was the topic
that was clear. It was gonna be a donor gift, but it was kind of squished.
26
�Dennis Neill: So then, TOHR moved to a location near 41st and Yale. Were you involved in
that transition?
Greg Gatewood: Well, that's right, I forgot about that. 21st and Memorial, we were there for
what, from 2000 to 2003, I think. 2003, yeah, as a side note on that, when I signed the lease
on as president, you sign the lease, the lease typically, because I was so nervous that
you're addressing. At one point, I was really nervous. You're personally, financially
responsible for that lease as the signer. Obviously, you're the lease signer. That is the
reason we had the Gill Outgiving and Community Foundation Seminars. It was because we
found that grant, and I wrote the grant for the outgiving and community thing.
We had the seminars in 2001, and I think that's the reason we bought this building, was
because of the success of the Pyramid Project, and the tactics that were utilized in that
were learned through outgiving and community seminars that we, it was through the Gill
Foundation. As a note, yeah, I forgot all about that. That was at the center of 21st Memorial.
We were outgiving and community program. We were selected through a grant process
through the Gill Foundation.
We held seminars, development seminars every month, at least half, as part of the
stipulation of the grant, at least half of the people that came there had to be from non-gay
organizations. So, that's where we got involved with the MET, Red Cross, and various other
organizations. So, that's how we made some inroads to those organizations. And, of
course, the Pyramid Project learned how to raise money, as so did everyone else. That was,
every month was in 2000, I forget all about. I keep forgetting about Gill Outgiving and
community [Tulsa Community Foundation], but I credit that as why the Pyramid Project
was successful.
Dennis Neill: So, was the Pyramid Project your main focus after you stepped down as
being the president until what time?
Greg Gatewood: I had certainly helped with the Pyramid Project after I stepped down as
president. I was probably more, I was always, I was definitely focused on pride. I've always
been focused on pride, because I was kind of, I was very involved with that. I, well, what
was it, what was 2001, 2002, 2003. There was, what we did, what was going on at the
center at 21st and Memorial at that time?
Dennis Neill: Seemed like Kerry and I were kind of running those movie nights.
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, the movie nights, we started the history, we started the history
project in 2003. That started at that center. That's when we had that first dinner. At All
Souls, we had the history dinner. Who was the speaker of that?
27
�Dennis Neill: Oh, one was at Lee Badgett or something like that. We had two, we did one
one year and then followed it the next year. And then Laura kind of got so involved at OSU,
things kind of dropped off, although she did a lot of interviews that we're catching up on
right now. So you were involved in Pride.
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, I did a lot of Pride stuff. I did a lot of event stuff and a bit of some
development.
Dennis Neill: So do you remember when you rolled off of the board then? What year?
Greg Gatewood: 2000, 2001, yeah, 2001, 2001 was Kerry's president and 2002 was Brent,
that was, Pride became an emergency situation in 2002.
Dennis Neill: Why do you say that?
Greg Gatewood: We'd lost the coordinator for Pride and president of the organization.
Dennis Neill: Was that Dee?
Greg Gatewood: Yeah. And so Brent became president and I stepped in as Pride
coordinator and started slashing. Our first meeting, our first meeting, because at that, oh, I
forgot about that. In 2000, instead of just having the parade and the festival, we thought,
well, why not have fewer things? We expanded it to a week, an entire week. All days, every
day of Pride and that was a lot. I'll say that.
In 2001, I think we started dropping it back, bringing it back, but what was I talking about
then?
Dennis Neill: Oh, we were kind of talking about you're involved with Pride and then we kind
of get to, we moved to the new center. And then I think, correct me if I'm wrong, it seems
like we hired our first executive director, Michael Christopher.
Greg Gatewood: That was in 2004, had to have been in 2004.
Dennis Neill: Okay, and after he left, do you remember when you started it and how did it
come about that you became the executive director?
I remember that. Yeah, I took a little break in 2004 because it was needed. And then I
became, let's see, what was going on? 30 Days, which was a TV show on MTV, I think, I don't
know what channel it's on. Tulsa was in the hunt, or the producer of 30 Days had come to
Tulsa to interview people to be on the show, 30 Days, where you could have a gay man and
a straight man live together for 30 days. And it was the guy that did the McDonald's, the 30
McDonald's for 30 Days. I think he may have passed away by now. What was his name?
28
�He did a McDonald's, only had McDonald's for 30 days. He'd do something for 30 days and
see the results. It was a show, but he came and they were interviewing people. I don't know,
I met them at the center. Before, I was (?) by any means. They were here in the winter, early
2005. And because we went to numerous bars and interviewed people, I don't know if they
found anybody.
They'd ask me, but I wouldn't have been able to be there. I was, that was in early 2005.
That's when I started, I started, yeah. Because y'all, something, had Michael left or
something?
Dennis Neill: Yeah.
Greg Gatewood: And I'd come, I don't know why, I'd start helping with that 30 Days thing.
And then. Maybe an ED at that point. I can't guess. That's hard to remember. That was 20
years ago.
Dennis Neill: So did you apply for the position?
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, when the new ED position, I applied.
Dennis Neill: Do you remember who was on the interview?
Greg Gatewood: I remember talking to, I think it was Laura, Mark. Were you there? You
were there.
Dennis Neill: Might have been. I was on the board until October of 2005.
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, so you were there. Because I remember you were in the back room,
I interviewed you. I was in the back room, I think. Mark, you, I can see. Atkinson, the first.
Yeah, there you are. Yeah. But that was, that center, the 21st. The 41st in Peoria. No, the
41st in Yale. Y'all were knocking down, y'all just knocked down a wall, I think, to create a
bigger room, conference room, maybe.
Because the center relocated from 21st Memorial to 41st in Yale. I was on my sabbatical. I
was on a break. So I wasn't there when everyone moved. I wasn't there for that move,
fortunately for me.
Dennis Neill: So what do you remember about our time there at 41st and Yale, kind of the
programs, activities, thoughts? For example, I know that we got our first grant for the Cyber
Center.
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, that's when David Bohnett’s Cyber Center opened up, which I
noticed is kind of different these days. Well, I just think it's not utilized. I mean, why?
29
�Dennis Neill: Well, that, and they moved everything for that Fringe Festival, and so they got
a new step back, but we're working on it. That was a big arts thing we did in September here
that took over our building. But we are working with Bohnett right now to kind of figure out
the path forward.
Greg Gatewood: Okay, because I remember the day of Bohnett’s Cyber Center, because
when it first opened, you said, at the 41st and Yale location. About 10, whether 8, 10
computers, something like that, maybe.
Dennis Neill: I think it was 6. I think we've always had 6.
Greg Gatewood: No, there were more than that.
Dennis Neill: There were more, okay.
Greg Gatewood: At one point there were more. I don't know if the grant, unless you
remember that. Because when you came in that little room, or that space, there were two
rows. We had the Northeast, at one point there was a Northeast Active Primetimes. They
came and did classes right when it first opened. I can't remember the couple's name.
Dennis Neill: I do remember that [Richard and Barbara ?].
Greg Gatewood: But they did classes for elderly people on computers. And then, I don't
know whether to talk about that or not, but one of the most memorable things about that
place was me getting a phone call on a Sunday telling me someone is not allowed to go in
that center anymore because of things tied to that cyber center.
Dennis Neill: Misuse of the cyber center?
Greg Gatewood: Because they used it to look at things…
Dennis Neill: Talk to us about the highs and lows of your time as the executive director.
Greg Gatewood: Well, highs, I was executive director, okay. Highs, probably one of the
highest highs was the day we moved in here. Or not moved in here, we didn't move in here,
but we raised the flag here. I'll never forget that day. It was cold, I think it was in November
2005, probably. Because we bought it in October.
Dennis Neill: September. So it was real shortly after that.
Greg Gatewood: It was shortly after. But we didn't remodel or anything. We had not
occupied it. But it was not really long after. Because, again, I got back from training at
Creating Change again because I remember I bought new clothes in San Francisco. But we
30
�raised the flag up here. We raised the flag. That was a really high day. We raised the pride
flag here. I thought it was a good day. It was a really good day.
I remember you were here. Greg Gray was here. I don't know why I remember talking to you
all right in hat room out there, because my suntan was running, my fake suntan, I'd put on
fake suntan to look good. I was sweating and my tan was running down the back of my
neck, I think. But that was a really good day. And the first event we ever had.
Dennis Neill: Which was?
Greg Gatewood: Was here in the building. The center was not officially opened. It was the,
so it would have been in 2006. It was in the events center. It was the art show for Pride. But
you had entered from the garage door. I don't know if it's still there. Is this the garage door
that faced the alley?
Dennis Neill: Yes.
Greg Gatewood: That's how you entered from that way and came in. That was the first
official event we ever had here.
Dennis Neill: Now I remember Sue and Marcy organizing the Pyramid fundraiser here.
Greg Gatewood: Oh yeah. We had a trolley thing. We came from someone's house here
one time.
Dennis Neill: Yeah. We had that big dinner here and it seemed like we raised…
Greg Gatewood: Oh yeah. I forgot about that. The big dinner. Oh yeah, that dinner. I was
the ED. That was Sue and Marcy because Kerry and I attended as donors.
Dennis Neill: That was probably 06 also.
Greg Gatewood: That had to have been 06, I think.
Dennis Neill: You were here as the ED for the dedication, February 12th of 07.
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, I was here the day we opened. That was a very good day. I'll never
forget. Yeah, that's a really good day. I'll never forget the song. I have that song downloaded
on my iTunes.
Dennis Neill: What was it?
31
�Greg Gatewood: It's one of my funeral songs. It's a long story. “What Have You Done.” They
played it on the video for the Pyramid Project at the very end. What Have You Done Today
To Make Me Feel Proud. I can't remember the artist's name.
I love the song. But that song was played a lot at that gathering downstairs. Downstairs,
wherever we are.
Dennis Neill: I remember that.
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, that was the day we opened. Was it February?
Dennis Neill: It was February.
Greg Gatewood: Oh, we moved in before…
Dennis Neill: It was right before that Valentine's.
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you mentioned Valentine's. You mentioned the,
what's it called now, the Tate Mansion.
Dennis Neill: Oh, yeah.
Greg Gatewood: Party, the first Wild Hearts Ball.
Dennis Neill: Oh, yeah, uh-huh.
Dennis Neill: When did you leave as executive director, do you recall?
Greg Gatewood: June of 2007.
Dennis Neill: June of 2007, right.
Greg Gatewood: June 14th, 2007, Flag Day.
Dennis Neill: Okay, so from the time that you left the architectural firm, what year was your
last gig with the architectural firm?
Greg Gatewood: Oh, with the architectural firm. Oh, I left in 2000.
Dennis Neill: So have you been involved in architectural work since then?
Greg Gatewood: Not with firms.
Dennis Neill: Okay.
32
�Greg Gatewood: Not with firms. I've done work on my own. I do work by myself. I do mostly
residential stuff. Commercial, I love commercial.
Dennis Neill: So tell us a little bit about your involvement with TOHR after you left as
executive director. You've got such an interesting relationship with Nancy MacDonald that
we really want you to cover as much of that interaction and work with PFLAG and Nancy as
you want to share.
Greg Gatewood: Sure. Well, you mentioned I left OkEq on June 14, 2007. I'll be honest, it
wasn't good for me anyway. Hopefully it wasn't good for others. But, yeah, it was a tough
time for myself. Real tough for a number of reasons. I know I wasn't involved with any more
way, shape, or form until 2000. What, 20 [2020]? It was the 40th anniversary. We were going
to do something. It was right before. I think it was 2019.
Dennis Neill: Is that when you started helping me up here?
Greg Gatewood: I think that because that had to have been there. Because we were getting
ready. The gala was going to be the 40th Gala. And, of course, then COVID hit. And then now
the gala. I think that's what made it 2019.
Dennis Neill: I started working in 2019 to get this thing going.
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, so, yeah. Nancy, I remember the first time, of course Nancy
McDonald was a former national PFLAG president from Tulsa here. I remember the first,
well not the first time I met her. At the center, I'm sure it was 1998 or 99. Was it 98? 99. We
named this, the Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library after her. That was when, I probably met
her beforehand, but Chastity Bono came to town for a PFLAG dinner. And that was, yeah,
we were at the other center, the original center when that came to town. And Chastity,
what's her name now? What's his name now?
Dennis Neill: Chas.
Greg Gatewood: Chas. Yeah. Came to dinner, we had an event at the center, at the original
center, and it's named, there's a picture somewhere. And that's one of the first times I met
Nancy. I met Nancy back in the 90s. And when we, that was in 99, because in 99 was also
the year we had that, the gala. The Barney Frank Gala. First gala. And I remember, we
talked, we were talking to her, I remember her coming up to the center, yeah, and helping
Leanne do stuff and stuff. And that's when I first, that's probably when I first met her.
I mean, I met her, maybe met her, I don't know, back in the early 90s when you were having
the, you know, the Tulsa, the city of Tulsa stuff. And obviously through PFLAG, you know,
read about her. But we became, Nancy and I became friends after I, she was of course
33
�PFLAG president the entire time I was involved. And after I left, we started having, we'd
have lunch once a month or so, we started having lunch, just talk. Because we, she grew up
in Nebraska, in rural Nebraska, farm country. I grew up in rural Oklahoma. Not necessarily
farm.
And so we could talk farming for sure. We could talk farming. And we could also talk, you
know, LGBT stuff too. So yeah, we did, we did, we'd go to lunch, we'd go to lunch usually
once, at least once a month, always at a Mexican place. Because Joe didn't like Mexican.
And so she only ate Mexican when we ate Mexican. That's also the only time I eat Mexican
because Kerry doesn't like Mexican. So now I don't eat Mexican.
Dennis Neill: Call me up sometime, I'll go out with you.
Greg Gatewood: So now I just don't, so now I don't eat Mexican. When did Oklahoma,
voted on the marriage, ban marriage. When did we do that? I remember, have you ever, that
was early 2000?
Dennis Neill: Like 04, 06.
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, something might be 04 maybe?
Dennis Neill: Might have been.
Greg Gatewood: Because we were coming, Nancy and I were coming back from Stillwater,
she gave a talk or something at the Stillwater gay group, whatever it was called, down in
OSU. We were coming back and we were talking about how it's going to be, you know,
obviously we're going to lose, but yeah, but Nancy was an incredible lady in my book. Yeah,
we, after I left, we, I, she always said, if I ever wrote a book of the stories she has, I want a
share of that book.
Dennis Neill: Speaking of that, you know, when she passed and I was visiting with Morva a
little bit as they prepared for her service, the thing I failed to follow up on were her recorda
which she had suggested that she would donate to our archives. So we never got that
closure on that. Are you in touch at all with any of the family? Or do you know where Joe is
these days?
Greg Gatewood: I was thinking about Joe the other day, because I didn't know if he was still
at Montereau, or had moved in with one of the sons or something. I'd think Jason if it was,
but I haven't. I saw something on social media that Jason had posted about Joe, but this is
probably a few months ago. So I was wondering about Joe the other day, and see if he is
doing all right, because I knew he'd had health issues. And so, yeah.
34
�Dennis Neill: How about with regard to Nancy, what's kind of the most memorable
moment that you remember working with Nancy on one of her wonderful causes?
Greg Gatewood: I don't have a thing up my sleeve. Probably one of the probably, oh my, I'd
say Pride. One of the most memorable moments was at Pride 2007, probably. Yeah, I just
confided in her some stuff that something happened, and I was like, good God, what's
going to happen?
And she just said, she, I can't say what she said, but it was so encouraging that it just made
you feel better. Just, it was, because I was really worried about something. And she's like,
well, you're not that type of person at all. And she just made you feel better. Just, and just, it
was, but, yeah. That was probably during the Pride of 2007.
Dennis Neill: She was the mother for all of us.
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, she was. I... mother. Yeah, she was the mother of a lot of gay guys
here in Tulsa.
Dennis Neill: I always considered her my lifetime mentor.
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, yeah, and yeah, and yeah, she was, yeah, she was the mother you
could talk to with you. You couldn't talk to your mother, then you talk to Nancy.
Greg Gatewood: There was one other thing that came to mind that is important to the
history of OkEq. In 1998, Matthew Shepard died. So I don't know why I'm getting emotional.
Oh, so anyway, we're at the center. This young man comes in, young, probably in his early
20s, maybe at that old. He's like, what are you all going to do? Are you going to do
something for Matthew Shepard? He had just been attacked. He wasn't actually dead yet.
And it had been a long, I don't remember what was going on. But basically, me and Rick and
this kid decided we needed to do something.
Steve, we was, you know, Steve was busy with his, I think, a new boyfriend. So we started
getting this little, we need to do something. So we had on this, where was it, the library in
downtown. We ended up having the attorney general give a proclamation. There, Dan was,
Drew Edmondson did a proclamation from the state of Oklahoma from the attorney
general. Council Oak sang. And I remember, we didn't expect that many people to be there,
because it was very spur of the moment. Me and Rick and that young man went to bars.
That's how, there was no internet. We didn't do the internet thing. And so we went to bars
and with little flyers. And here, everyone needs to come. This is happening. And we had a
good service. But I remember people literally walked up from Renegades, which was 13th,
16th and Main, something like that. They walked up to the Civic Center Plaza. We probably
35
�had 300 people there, I would think. And that was important for OkEq, because one, the
more it recognized the importance… Matthew Shepherd an important bit in the history of
the whole community. It also brought a lot. We got a lot. We were on the front page the next
day. Because I was on the front page the next day. Because we lit candles. We had a lighting
candle ceremony and the council folks sang. So we got a lot of recognition for that.
Dennis Neill: Did you do the same in helping Nancy on the sweep away the hate?
Greg Gatewood: I was not involved with that. I think, after my time there. I know they did
the sweep, but that was sweeps of hate. I can't remember. Was that for the Phelps thing?
Dennis Neill: Yeah, the Phelps was boycotting the Sand Springs High School because, I
don't know who it was, a student that was involved…[2004 Westbro Baptist Church
protested Michale Shakleford, 17 year-old high school student].
Greg Gatewood: Oh, one of the students out there. Yeah, the Phelps people, they
protested the first parade, all the stuff that went through that. I didn't chase them out of
town. I followed them out of town. In 2000, just to make sure they left town, after they
protested the young guy's graduation, because he had started at GSA. I followed him out of
town. That 1998 thing was just important to bring up.
Dennis Neill: Any other thoughts or memories you want to share as we kind of conclude
our interview?
Greg Gatewood: Well, when I think about the history of OkEq, one, pride. I think about
pride. I think about this building, the people, mostly the people. Because I've met a lot of
friends. I've met my husband, obviously. I probably should mention that. I've met a lot of
friends, obviously, through the community center. It's hard to believe it's been 20 years
now. No, 30 years. Good God, 30 years. It has been 30 years, hasn't it? Still not as many as
other people, but yeah, it has been.
Dennis Neill: Well, we've all had our ups and downs with this organization.
Greg Gatewood: Yeah, I had a down.
Dennis Neill: I understand. But we appreciate so much you sharing your time with us and
letting others know about the important history that you've been sharing with us.
Greg Gatewood: There's a lot. If I rack my brain or think of different things, I could tell you
stories. Some are good. Some are really good. Some are bad. Some should not ever be
told. But if you want I could write some. I could write down. I write good, too.
36
�Dennis Neill: We'd love to add whatever you'd like to to the file and the transcript. That'd be
great. Yeah, absolutely. Anything you feel comfortable. Because it's been so interesting
going through these oral histories and reading all those that Laura did. It really just brings
back so many memories to me.
Greg Gatewood: Like the Matthew Shepard thing. That's something that is kind of a blip.
Well, not a blip. That really did, I think, help that event. That event and the spontaneity of it.
It was less than a week. And it was no push email, mass email, or social media. It was the
same for all prides. For the first prides until mid-2000 or 2000. We went to every bar. Every
Friday and Saturday night. And there were seven or eight bars in town then. We went to
every bar on Friday and Saturday night. And I didn't think of it until later. I'm the person that
I hated that would put stuff on your windshield. Can I come out after or something? We
would paper every car in every parking lot in every bar and close by parking lots for pride.
Here's your pride schedule. And we'd do that every Friday and Saturday night for three or
four months before pride.
Dennis Neill: Well, Greg, thanks again for sharing your story. And please feel free to write
down some of the thoughts that we can share with the audience.
Greg Gatewood: Sometimes I write better than I talk.
Dennis Neill: Thank you.
Greg Gatewood: Thank you.
37
�More Memorable Moments (by Greg Gatewood)
June 2026
An Unsung Hero
I first volunteered with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) in 1996. I do not recall
who ‘showed me the ropes’ of answering the helpline when the operations of TOHR were
located at 41st and Harvard. That initial time of volunteering for TOHR was fairly short-lived
due to a number of factors. However, I definitely recall the first person I met when
beginning to volunteer again at the original “Pride Center” in 1997. That first person was
Steve Horn. Steve was the volunteer coordinator, as well as 1st Vice-President, I believe, at
that time. Steve’s dedication to the purposes and mission of TOHR definitely had an
impact on me. Steve became President while I became an at-large member of the board in
1998. Major and impactful decisions were not only made, but also accomplished, for
TOHR and the Tulsa Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) community in the short
1.5 years under Steve’s leadership and dedication. Beginning in January 1998 through June
1999, Steve was at the Center nearly every day leading the movement of working for
equality for the Tulsa LGBT community. He would normally show up at the Center before 6
pm (after a full day of work at his actual ‘work’ office), open the Center, work for a solid 4
hours, welcome and talk to others while doing that work, close the Center at 10 pm, and
then finally go home. That was repeated Monday thru Friday for the next 1.5 years.
Weekends brought more time to work for the community. So, 6 to 8 hours on Saturdays
and 4 hours on Sundays were normal. I know Steve was there all that time, because I was
there with him. I sincerely believe the foundation for the future success of TOHR was set in
1998 and 1999 under Steve Horn’s leadership and dedication.
HOPE (Health Outreach, Prevention, and Education)
HOPE, initially a program of TOHR, was split-off to become a separate non-profit in early
1998. This was an incredibly hard and difficult decision for all members of the Board of
Directors as well as for the membership of OkEq (all decisions were voted upon by the
membership at that time). However, due to the severe consequences the State of
Oklahoma would definitely have taken against TOHR and HOPE, aka the complete
dismantling of both organizations by the State of Oklahoma, we knew it was vitally
necessary. The very questionable actions made by previous administrations and
individuals forced this action to occur in order to ensure the survival of both TOHR and
38
�HOPE. Today, both organizations continue to serve the LGBT community and general
community in their own capacities.
THE anonymous gift of 1998
The necessary split of HOPE from TOHR resulted in multiple positives for both
organizations. However, it did come with a few setbacks. The primary sources of funding
for TOHR after the split were memberships, a few but regular donations, and profit from the
newly acquired and expanded Pride Store. As the end of the 1998 approached, and despite
very careful budgeting with strict adherence to that budget, the serious question of “how
we will pay rent” and “will we have to close the doors” was a real threat. An anonymous
gift, an amount to cover rent though the end of year plus a bit more, was then delivered to
the TOHR office in the newly renamed “Tulsa Gay Community Services Center.” That
anonymous gift kept the doors open in 1998 and helped set the course for success in 1999.
Approximately 3 years later, I finally learned who was that anonymous donor.
Tulsa Pride
Tulsa Pride ’99 featured the 1st Tulsa LGBT Pride Parade. However, there were several
important earlier moments that led to that 1st Tulsa LGBT Pride Parade in 1999. Planning for
Pride ’99 began before Pride ’98 even happened. When the then Tulsa Chief of Police
asked us “why aren’t you having a parade” while discussing the sidewalk march of ’98, we
developed a plan. Steve Horn, Rick Martin, and I decided then and there to have Tulsa’s 1st
Pride Parade in 1999. However, Pride ’98 was in two short weeks and we had goals to
accomplish, not to mention pulling off the upcoming celebration. A major and very
important component for us was higher visibility and to grow attendance, so we relocated
Pride ’98 to Veterans Park (now Dreamkeepers Park) and moved the date to the second
Saturday of June (to avoid Father’s Day weekend). One of my more memorable moments of
Pride ’98 is of Rick Martin and me deciding to rent a trailer the day before the Picnic to use
as the stage. This was great as it elevated the entertainers above the crowd. The
entertainers soon discovered the gaps between the wooden floor of the trailer were just
wide enough to trap a high heel - just ask lead entertainer Kris Kohl : )
The struggle to make the 1st Tulsa LGBT Pride Parade actually happen was very real. Due to
the Tulsa City Council’s intention to deny any permit for the 1st Tulsa Pride Parade as they
had delayed the vote twice - we made plans. Those plans included having a lawsuit written
and prepared to be filed the next day in the event of any denial of any permit. We were
39
�definitely ready. The City of Tulsa attorney had informed the Tulsa City Council that a denial
of the parade permit would not only bring consequences, it was also highly illegal. Only
due to the illegality and potential lawsuits did the Tulsa City Council vote to approve the
parade permit. A few of us attended the Tulsa City Council when they were again
scheduled to vote on the parade permit. Immediately prior to voting to grant the permit, we
were treated firsthand to full-on bigotry through mini-sermons, condemnation, and outright
hate-filled statements from nearly all of the then Tulsa City Council members.
The ‘controversy’ surrounding the parade permit vote turned out to be quite good. The
antics of the Tulsa City Council caught the attention of the Kansas-based Westboro Baptist
Church (WBC). The condemnation by the Tulsa City Council and resulting protests by the
WBC brought even more free press coverage. Knowledge of and interest in Tulsa’s 1st Pride
Parade skyrocketed. The result was a much larger attendance and participation than
anticipated. I so remember riding the leading float with Steve and Phillip. As we rounded
the corner at 21st and Boulder and saw the thousands of people cheering loudly, I
remember initially thinking, ”what have we done?” only to immediately realize “damn, we
have succeeded”. I will never forget that feeling of joy and pride.
I was fortunate to be the host representative of TOHR for US Representative and Grand
Marshal of the 1st Tulsa Pride Parade, the Honorable Barney Frank, during Tulsa Pride 1999.
‘Host’ simply meant that everywhere Barney went, I was there with him. B.J. Kissinger, the
host representative of the Tulsa County Democratic Party, and I were treated to some
amazing stories of the inner-workings of the US House of Representatives, why Barney
really wanted to come to Tulsa, and his new boyfriend’s nervousness of attending an
upcoming dinner with President Bill Clinton at the White House among additional stories
and anecdotes. A few things definitely stand out during that memorable weekend: 1)
Barney would not eat dinner at “An Evening with Barney Frank,” the inaugural Equality Gala,
until after he spoke. Why? He did not want to risk having any food stuck in his teeth while
speaking. 2) Barney jumped right in to play volleyball with attendees at the Tulsa Pride
Festival. He thoroughly enjoyed that time as he was smiling and laughing, commenting
after a game or two “there’s some good athletes in Tulsa.” 3) The entire crowd at the Pride
Festival sat down on the grass and listened to Barney as he spoke from the stage. That
moment of watching thousands listen intently to him was one of was one of the most
memorable and rewarding of being heavily involved with Tulsa Pride for over a decade.
Note: There should be (or at least there was) a video of the entire 1st Tulsa Pride Parade in
the History Archives of OkEq. That video was taken from atop the old (now demolished) RR
Bridge spanning Riverside Drive near 31st and Riverside.
40
�The success of the events of 1999 led to major expansion in 2000. Primarily a one-day
event that contained the Pride Parade, the Pride Festival, and the Gala all on the same day
in 1999 became an over a week-long celebration in 2000. Please refer to “Diversity
Celebration 2000” in the historical collections for a complete schedule. 9 events in 8 days I
think. In fact, I took a week of vacation off of my profession (Architecture) to help ensure
the success of that week. Kerry Lewis, my now husband, did the same from his profession
as an Attorney. The Grand Marshalls of the Pride Parade and featured speakers at the Gala
and Festival were Dr. Grethe Cammermeyer and Greg Louganis. Dr. Cammermeyer
inspired the crowd when she spoke eloquently at the Gala of her time with the US Armed
Forces and forced departure. The next day, she led the parade with great pride. She again
spoke eloquently from the stage during the Festival and greeted many attendees
throughout the afternoon. Greg Louganis was the exact opposite. He demanded special
treatment at the Gala while speaking only of himself. He left the parade early, breaking his
contract, to feed his dog and to take a nap. He then badmouthed Tulsa the following year
when he was in Denver. Soulforce in Oklahoma, a LGBT organization based on the Dr.
Martin Luther King principles of non-violence, brought in Rev. Mel While to further reach all
in the community. Rev. While was a former ghostwriter for Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, and
Pat Robertson before coming out as a gay man. He then became a leading LGBT+ activist
and inspirational speaker. Rev. White spoke to a packed house at the Tulsa PAC worship
service and inspired more through workshops. Note: Rev. While is the father of Mike White,
an out gay man and writer / director of the HBO hit-show “White Lotus,”
The success of the Tulsa Pride celebrations of 1999 and 2000 through the use of wellknown names and activists (as planned) allowed us to focus on important issues such as
Hate Crimes in 2001. The Grand Marshalls of the parade and featured speakers at the Gala
and Festival were parents of recent hate crime victims. Those three (3) parents, ___, ___,
and ___ reminded all in attendance at the various events to double-down to work for
equality. Their remarks at both the Gala and Festival were some of the most emotional I’ve
ever heard. I hope their words continue to have an impact and are still felt today
throughout the Tulsa LGBT and allied community.
My involvement with Tulsa Pride unfortunately ended in 2007.
2000 was an extremely busy and productive year for TOHR. A few highlights:
1. I was President of the Board of Directors (that actually began in July 1999 with
Steve’s relocation to Denver, CO).
41
�2. The Pyramid Project, the successful Capital Campaign of TOHR, began in 2000. Sue
Welch became chair while I as President became co-chair (a stipulation of then bylaws that the President of the Board was a co-chair on all committees).
3. “Diversity Celebration 2000,” aka Tulsa Pride, expanded to over a week+ series of
very successful events.
4. Members of the LGBT and allied community protested at the Boy Scouts
headquarters in Brookside in Midtown Tulsa.
5. The “Tulsa Gay Community Services Center,” the name adopted in 1998 and
formerly known as the Pride Center, relocated to 21st and Memorial and was
subsequently renamed the Tulsa Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender
Community Center
6. The Board of Directors welcomed its first member of the Transgender community.
7. I was the Oklahoma coordinator for the 2000 March on Washington (see more
information below).
8. Kerry and I attended our first “Creating Change” conference in Oakland, CA. The
information gleaned and learned at the conference helped ‘set the stage’ for the
future of TOHR.
9. We planned and executed a successful “kettle protest” of the Salvation Army. The
Salvation Army did not (do not?) like members of the LGBT community. The “kettle
protest” involved putting a protest note in lieu of money in the Salvation Army
kettles.
10. TOHR became the recipient of the “OutGiving InCommunity” grant (see more
information below).
In 2000, I wrote the grant that bought the Denver-based Gill Foundation to the Tulsa
community. OutGiving InCommunity was a series of fundraising and organizational
workshops and teachings for local non-profits and individuals held monthly during 2001. A
requirement of those workshops was that 50% of all attendees were to be representatives
of non-LGBT organizations. This requirement strengthened the fundraising techniques of
various organizations and individuals while also strengthening and developing important
relationships. I firmly believe those workshops and teachings were THE reason why TOHR
was successful in the “Pyramid Project” capital campaign. The Pyramid Project began in
2000 in the original center at 38th/Peoria in Brookside. The current building housing the
Dennis R. Neill Equality Center was purchased in 2005. The purchase of a permanent
42
�building in 5 short years was a tremendous accomplishment for such a small organization.
What we learned as a result of the OutGiving Incommunity grant not only laid the
foundation for the purchase of a building for ng the permanent Center, but also the impetus
why OkEq was awarded a FastTrack grant from the Gill Foundation. Ex: during the 2001
Gala, a direct “ask” was made from the podium utilizing techniques learned from the
OutGiving InCommunity workshops. The “ask” was the largest one-night infusion, at that
point, of funds to TOHR. The week after Pride I notified representatives of the Gill
Foundation of our success. The result was a multi-thousand dollar operating grant to
“FastTrack” the organization towards further success.
I also was the statewide coordinator for Oklahoma for the 2000 March on Washington. It
was easy to spot and find the Oklahoma contingent on the National Mall, as an Oklahoma
flag flew high above the tens of thousands of people preparing to march down Constitution
Avenue. It was also easy to see and hear us during the march, as we not only carried a
banner 10’ above the crowd (we brought flags, banners and PVC on the plane), we also
sang “Oklahoma” in unison. Suffice it to say, as we sang the state song and especially as
we hit the chorus of “where the wind comes sweeping the plains” – it was a big crowd hit.
The march was fun, the rally was great, and the concert at RFK Stadium was amazing.
2001 was another banner year for TOHR. The monthly “OutGiving InCommunity”
workshops drew many non-LGBT representatives into the Center. This resulted in
strengthened relationships as well as successful fundraising. Kerry Lewis was the
President of the Board of Directors throughout 2001. His leadership and dedication
brought new faces, new ideas, and further success for the Tulsa LGBT community.
By 2005, the Center relocated to the 41st and Yale area. I also became the full-time
Executive Director in early 2005. Once again, I hit the ground running. However, prior to
that, I was asked to be at the Center to welcome and host the producers of a “30 Days”
television show. That show aimed to highlight people learning how to accept each other,
through having a heterosexual man live with a gay man for 30 days. We (two producers and
I) set up interviews at the Center and in various LGBT nightclubs and bars around town. In
the end, the producers asked me to be that gay man living with a heterosexual man for 30
days. However, I was not in the position to do that arrangement at that point and to my
knowledge, the show never came to fruition.
“Brokeback Mountain” (and the something only one or two people know about to this day).
Prior to the national release of the groundbreaking film “Brokeback Mountain,” I received a
call from a producer of the film. Due to the films country/western focus and subject
matter, as well as because of the success of TOHR, I was asked if Tulsa and TOHR would be
43
�interested in hosting the World Premiere of “Brokeback Mountain.” Discussions ensued
with the possibility of such an event happening in Tulsa. However, due to marketing and
production decisions and needs, it unfortunately (and obviously) did not come to pass.
However, TOHR did celebrate “Brokeback Mountain” in a big way. A free BBQ dinner was
held at the Center with the capacity crowd packing every space, including the storage
room, in the Center. We then walked or drove together to the film’s opening night at the
AMC Theatres a few blocks away.
We purchased the permanent building housing the Center in 2005. I remember attending
an event around the corner on 3rd Street in the newly designated “East Village” prior to
touring and purchasing the building. While at that event, I ran into Dennis Neill. We both
commented to each other something like “have you seen that building on 4th Street” (of
course we both had)…we definitely need to look into that building.” Obviously, the “bomb
factory” was bought and was immediately followed by Sue Welch and her team getting to
work on renovations. In the interim, day-to-day operations of the then Center near 41st and
Yale continued.
Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights was renamed “Oklahomans for Equality” (OkEq) in
2006. (“Equality Oklahoma,” the original choice, had been ‘taken’ a couple weeks earlier by
a now defunct organization). This rebranding effort included the new name and a new logo
(note: I designed all logos and completed all graphics, newsletter, eNews, etc. prior to the
new name and logo) among other necessary items. A couple of memories during that
process was at one of the meetings I commented “we really need to get involved with this
new thing called Facebook.” I was rebuffed on that suggestion by the new logo designer
and the then President of the Board of Directors. A funny thing about that new (and
current) logo: it was jokingly referred to as the “Who killed Kenny” (see “Southpark) logo by
a friend and donor. The logo can be seen as reflecting the mission, however, I can’t forget
“Who killed Kenny”…
While attending “Creating Change” in San Francisco in 2006, I and the ED of the New York
City LGBT Community Center were talking in the lobby of the hotel. During our visit, I was
telling him about our recent purchase, ongoing remodel, and planned opening of the new
18,000 square feet Tulsa LGBT Community Center. The result: I joined the Board of
Directors of the National Association of LGBT Community Centers. This was a great honor
and immediately brought contacts, advice, and important avenues for further success for
OkEq. I was reelected to that same board in early 2007 at Creating Change in Kansas City,
MO. The future of OkEq seemed so bright.
44
�“Sirius” radio also came calling in 2006. I, through working with the producers of a show on
Sirius focused on the LGBT community, set-up a live broadcast of the nationally broadcast
show from the Tulsa LGBT Community Center (41st and Yale location). The Center was
packed with people to listen and support OkEq and the Center. (Note: I attended an event
honoring Nancy McDonald that evening as yet once again I was prevented from on that live,
national broadcast).
One of the most memorable days of my decade plus of involvement with TOHR / OkEq was
the day I raised the Pride flag on the roof of the Dennis R Neill Equality Center. It was a
celebration attended by hundreds of the Tulsa LGBT community on a beautiful November
day filled with sunshine. I will never forget that feeling. I will never forget that day.
2007 brought change. We moved into and opened the doors of the newly named Dennis R
Neill Equality Center in early 2007. The celebration was unforgettable! “Proud” (a theme
song of the “Pyramid Project” and now btw, one of my “funeral” songs) played. I will never
forget the people, the music, and the joy we all felt. It was a fantastic day filled with pride
for all in the community. I will never forget that day.
Remodeling work continued. Technology work began and continued. I definitely recall
what seemed like the never-ending technology upgrades and installation of new databases
that prevented me from actually using my office computer for 3 out of 5 days for 3 months.
However, our work continued. Tulsa Pride 2007 was approaching, and now with 2.5 fulltime employees, progress was being accomplished.
Two or three weeks before Tulsa Pride 2007, the Board of Directors asked me to develop a
3-year strategic plan. I did. That 3-year strategic plan was greeted and accepted with
accolades and thanks as it was a fairly detailed strategic plan filled with expanded
programming plans, fundraising plans and goals, and so much more. (Note: that plan
appeared to actually be followed, somewhat to a “t,” and was successfully implemented
over the next 5 years despite implementation not being able to begin for approximately 2
years).
It was also during this time, one of those most memorable moments occurred. Not long
after the Dennis R Neill Equality Center opened, a group of teenagers and young adults
began coming into the Center at 3:00 pm (opening time) nearly every day. The David
Bohnett CyberCenter (this was in the time before smartphones) and the Sue Welch Great
Hall were their hangouts. Over the course of a few weeks of saying ‘hi’, casual
conversations in the Center or outside, and just simply welcoming this group of teenagers
and young adults, one of the young men asked if he could tell me something. He’d been
kicked out his home because he was gay. His new friends that were with him did not know
45
�he was gay, and he didn’t want to tell them - at least not yet. He didn’t want to risk not
having any friends. He couldn’t risk it. These young people were all homeless. After this
group of young adults had visited a few times, someone surprisingly asked me “why do you
even talk to them?” My response was hopefully similar to: ”Yes, a 17 year old young man,
who was kicked out of the only home he ever knew for being gay, and who is being forced to
‘come out’ again, is just one of the many reasons the Dennis R Neill Equality Center even
exists. I recall telling that brave 17-year old young gay man, that he could ‘come out’ to his
friends when he wants and/or when it’s best for him. It was his decision. In addition to
utilizing the David Bohnett CyberCenter, he also managed to get a book or two from the
Nancy & Joe McDonald Rainbow Library on coming out. I also knew he and his friends
frequented Youth Services of Tulsa, just across the bridge, and had a level of safety. He
shared his story with me the week before Pride, Unfortunately, I never saw him again due to
circumstances. I’ve sometimes wondered: did he make it off the streets…did he come out
again…is he alive?
Tulsa Pride 2007 came and went. It was yet another successful event despite some
hiccups which is normal. By Sunday, June 10th, Pride was over, remodeling and technology
upgrades were finally getting closet to being complete, and the future seemed so bright.
We had a plan and the time, the space, the financial resources, and the dedication to set
that plan into action. I was excited for the future.
My last day with Oklahomans for Equality and the Dennis R Neill Equality Center was
Wednesday, June 13, 2007. When given the option to “gather my things and immediately
leave OR make arrangements to get my things later and immediately leave, I chose the
former. I will never forget that day.
----Addendum to the above addendum re: Tulsa Pride
“Pride” is very important to me. I am quite proud of the work, growth, and success I and
others accomplished over the years regarding “Tulsa Pride” celebrations from 1997 through
2007. Below is my response, in full, I posted on Facebook in June 2024 in response to the
announcement OkEq posted on Facebook when it decided to move Tulsa Pride to another
month instead of the internationally recognized Pride month of June - because of the
weather. I am confident the “it’s too hot / the weather” was and is an excuse based in
finances. Below is the response I wrote to OkEq (I do not recall the individual who wrote
the post I responded to re: moving Tulsa Pride to a month outside the internationally
46
�recognized Pride Month of June. However, this information should be in OkEq Facebook
records.
----Thank you for your response, explanation, and for your dedication of time and talents to
Tulsa Pride. I know well the hours required to successfully plan, plan, plan, and execute a
large-scale event such as Tulsa Pride are incredibly trying and time-consuming.
My comments were and are not directed at you or other Tulsa Pride volunteers (added note
of explanation: I called the planning and execution of Tulsa Pride 2023 incompetent – which
it clearly was – and were directed at any OkEq staff involved with planning of that
cluster__). Please accept my apologies as and if they were taken as such. I also ask you to
read the “series” of pic comments (ran over Facebook character limits so did pics), aka a
rather lengthy but hopeful explanation of the significance, importance, and necessity to
hold major “Pride” such as the Tulsa Pride Parade and Festival events in June in their
entirety.
I volunteered with, led major components of the (then) week+ long celebration, and/or
chaired Tulsa Pride for 11 years (1997-2007). I also served as President (1999-2000) and in
multiple board positions of OkEq (1998-2003) during that time. I then was the ED of OkEq
(2005-2007). During my time with OkEq, I was asked to join and was re-elected to the
national board of LGBT Community Centers (now CenterLink). Although not directly with
OkEq the last few years, I care deeply for the health and well-being of the LGBTQ+
community, as well as for the success of the mission of equality of OkEq. After all, my
husband and I wrote the original (as it was recently changed) mission statement.
The information relayed to myself pertained to the late timing of applications and therefore
associated scheduling of city employees, etc. related to the lengthy permitting process.
Prior to that news, serious financial issues had been discovered within OkEq, before the
Equality Gala and Tulsa Pride 2023, and shared with select others. Staffing and leadership
changes also occurred before or possibly during that time. The latter two happenings
directly affected and currently affect (e.g. the resulting financial situation of OkEq clearly
played a role in any decision to move Tulsa Pride) the organization as a whole.
An organization, with a 1.2 million dollar budget and multiple (8 at that time?) employees,
did not have 1 full-time employee dedicated to its largest program, Tulsa Pride? That
is…interesting. Interesting in that years ago, even with only 2.5 employees, the .5 employee
(who actually worked full-time) was dedicated to Tulsa Pride.
47
�The revelation that prior documentation or “blueprints” for Tulsa Pride from previous years
were not available or found, is much more troubling in numerous ways. Immediate and
recent past records, aka documents with vital information, planning directions with
deadlines, protocols, etc. of all programs of OkEq, not to mention its largest program
should be readily accessible via electronic and/or paper files in and on the property of
OkEq. Historical documents and photos are (were?) kept on the property of OkEq in a
specific room. It is completely astounding and disturbing, to say the least, that vital
programming and historical documents were (are?) nowhere to found on the property of
OkEq! I know serious financial issues currently facing OkEq are being addressed by
individuals and groups of individuals. There appear to also be questions related
to…additional operational and/or questionable behaviors within the organization…that
must be further addressed if not yet investigated with all necessary remedial actions taken.
[Editor’s note – as our small group of volunteers and part-time archivist continue to
organize the history project materials and information from digital storage platforms, many
of the past pride materials are being located and organized.]
All that being said…Congratulations to you and your team for the jobs done to accomplish
much while dealing with the extreme and unique circumstances of Tulsa Pride 2023.
“Pride” started as a riot in June 1969. What is internationally recognized as a defining
moment – the visible beginning of the fight for LGBTQ+ equality – began on June 28, 1969.
The Stonewall Riots, aka “Stonewall” demonstrated the strength and conviction of our
community through visibility and direct actions. Those actions of courage and bravery,
during the hot Summer days and nights of June, galvanized the LGBTQ+ community in the
continuing fight for equality. The NYC site of those important events is now the “Stonewall
National Monument,” declared as such in 2016. “Stonewall” was a milestone – it is the
WHEN and WHY the LGBTQ+ community publicly declared our freedom and equality!
Tulsa Pride began as a picnic in June 1982. A celebration of the LGBTQ+ community in
Tulsa, only 13 years after June 1969, was a milestone for our community. The celebrations
growth, through increasing attendance, visibility, and organization, bought the 1st Tulsa
Pride Parade to the streets of Tulsa on June 12, 1999 (25 years ago next week btw). That
milestone for our community fulfilled a 17 year quest to march the streets of Tulsa for
LGBTQ+ equality. Since that first Picnic in 1982, to that first Pride Picnic in 1999, to the
present day celebration, Tulsa Pride has grown and evolved from a picnic near the edge of
town to a large-scale event in
Downtown Tulsa. It is one of the many significant accomplishments of the Tulsa LGBTQ+
community during the past 44 years (OkEq was founded in 1980).
48
�During that time period, the LGBTQ+ community also faced many obstacles. The HIV/AIDS
crisis that began circa 1981, killing and affecting many in our community, was and is a
significant health obstacle. I’ve lost multiple friends to HIV/AIDS. I know others currently
living with HIV/AIDS and other serious health concerns. I have extended family members
experiencing, or that have experienced Huntingtons, Down Syndrome, Parkinson’s, Cancer,
and more. I also have immediate family members living with Cancer, Chromosonal issues,
and now ALS. I have educated myself on these various health issues. I do so through
talking with, sitting with, volunteering in support of, reading up on, and caring for my
friends, community, and family. Do not ever imply I do not care for the health and wellbeing of my friends, my family, or the LGBTQ+ community – EVER!
The health of everyone is always a major concern for all past and present organizers of any
event or celebration. Juneteenth, 4th of July celebrations, the MLK Jr. Parade, and Tulsa
Pride are a few of the major public events held in Tulsa. Those celebrations, and others not
listed, happen during months that can extreme and unique weather conditions. Those
conditions can, have, and will cause health concerns. Organizers of those events, can,
have, and successfully do address health concerns. OkEq has done and easily can do the
same with innovative, inclusive, and exciting solutions. OkEq can also do all that while
preserving the vital reason that WHEN these events happened are because WHY these
events happen!
We celebrate Juneteenth on June 19th, or near that day, every year to commemorate the last
day of slavery – when freedom was delivered.
We celebrate our country’s Independence Day every year on July 4th to commemorate the
day we, as a country, declared out freedom.
We celebrate Martin Luther King Jr every year on the 3rd Monday in January to
commemorate his leadership in the Civil Rights Movement while declaring “We Shall
Overcome…”
We celebrate Pride every year during the month of June to commemorate the days in June
1969 when LGBTQ+ community members visibly fought back, declaring our freedom and
equality!
It is seriously doubtful organizers of the above events, and more not named, will ever move
their associated events to a different season for any reason. Why? Most often, WHEN we
have an important event is tied into WHY that event happens.
Tulsa Pride should return to June. Tulsa Pride exists to: 1) Commemorate the beginning of
the LGBTQ+ community of visibly fighting for our freedom and equality, 2) Educate the
49
�general public about our community and work for equality, and 3) Celebrate our entire
community and the progress made for equality since June 1969. Tulsa Pride must return to
June to fulfill the mission of OkEq.
Working for Equaltiy for the LGBTQ+ community WAS at the core of the mission of
Oklahomans for Equality (OkEq). Moving Tulsa Pride outside the month of June, 1)
eliminates the actual WHEN and WHY Pride even happens, 2) Eliminates visibility during
the nationally recognized (for the time being) Pride Month, and 3) Eliminates the best
opportunity to actually work for equality.
We, the LGBTQ+ community, face the real threat of dark days and years in the not-toodistant future. The multiple actions, laws, and decisions across our nation targeting our
community are real and strengthening. Legal discrimination, the loss of marriage-equality,
and worse actions are definite possibilities facing our community (refer 2024 Elections).
In June 1969, the LGBTQ+ community took to the streets fighting back against persecutors.
The LGBTQ+ community has faced and addressed serious health issues, such as HIV/AIDS
to the benefit of our community and general public. The LGBTQ+ community continues to
fight for equality over the years, facing attacks, discrimination, and yes, killings. The
LGBTQ+ community has made progress in the fight for equality.
The stage is being set to challenge and reverse the LGBTQ+ community’s progress. The
stage is being set to remove our civil rights, marriage equality, and much more.
When the LGBTQ+ community faces the coming serious challenges to our civil rights and
equality – will we take to the streets to fight for our equality, to fight for our future, and to
possibly fight for our lives? Or will the LGBTQ+ community only fight for our and future
generations equality, civil rights, or lives – if the WHEN is convenient and the WHY is
comfort?
Happy Pride (and Happy 25th Anniversary to the Tulsa Pride Parade on June 12, 2024)!
50
�
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[Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews
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<strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong>
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[2026] Greg Gatewood Interview
Description
An account of the resource
In this engaging conversation, Greg Gatewood shares his life story, beginning with his upbringing in rural Wyandotte, Oklahoma. He reflects on his childhood experiences, including his education at Oklahoma State University, where he pursued architecture. Greg discusses the close-knit community of his small school, his involvement in sports, and his early interests in agriculture through the Future Farmers of America (FFA). He also touches on his family dynamics, highlighting the influence of his parents and siblings on his formative years.<br />As the conversation progresses, Greg opens up about his journey of self-discovery regarding his sexual orientation, coming out as a gay man during his time at OSU in the mid-1980s. He recounts the challenges he faced growing up in a religious family and the societal pressures of the time. Greg's narrative shifts to his involvement in the LGBTQ community in Tulsa, detailing his volunteer work at the Tulsa Gay Community Center and his role in organizing Pride events. His reflections provide insight into the evolution of LGBTQ rights and visibility in Oklahoma, showcasing both personal and communal growth over the years. In this episode, the speakers reflect on their experiences and pivotal moments in the LGBTQ+ community, particularly focusing on the establishment and evolution of the Tulsa Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, and Community Center. They recount a poignant story from November 2000, when a man drove all night to seek refuge and support at the center after coming out to his wife. This encounter highlights the center's role as a safe haven and resource for individuals in crisis. The conversation also delves into the personal connections formed within the community, including the speakers' own relationship and their involvement in various initiatives, such as the Pyramid Project and Pride events, which aimed to foster inclusivity and support for LGBTQ+ individuals in Tulsa.<br />As the discussion progresses, the speakers share their memories of significant events, including the impact of Matthew Shepard's death on the community and the importance of activism in raising awareness. They reflect on their roles in organizing Pride events and the challenges faced in advocating for LGBTQ+ rights. The episode concludes with a sense of nostalgia and gratitude for the friendships and connections made through their work, emphasizing the ongoing journey toward equality and acceptance.
Subject
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Greg Gatewood Oral History Project Interview from January 15, 2026
Creator
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Greg Gatewood, Dennis Neill
Date
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January 15, 2026
2026
activism
architecture
coming out
Coming Out Day
community
Dennis Neill
Dennis R. Neill
family
Gay Rights
Greg Gatewood
interview
Matthew Shepard
OKEQ Oral History Project
Oklahoma State University
Oklahoma State University (OSU)
oral history
oral history interview
Oral History Project
OSU
Pride
pride Parade
Pride Parade and festival
rural
transcript
Tulsa Community Center
Tulsa Gay Community Services Center
video
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PDF Text
Text
Oklahomans for Equality History Project
For many years in June, which is LGBTQ Pride
month, Tulsa’s downtown streets and parks were
awash in a rainbow of colors with a sea of the
beautiful diversity of humanity assembled for Tulsa
Pride. But it wasn’t always that way. Think about a
time when Pride didn’t exist – a time when many of
you weren’t yet born but when a large number of our
LGBTQ community WERE here, trying to live in a
world that didn’t acknowledge their humanity.
LGBTQ people existed, but pride did not. Being gay
or trans meant living in the closet for fear of losing
one’s family, job, religious affiliation and home and
being ostracized – and even jailed or institutionalized
– for living openly. Beyond those outward realities,
LGBTQ people often were self-loathing, longing to
change their sexual orientation or gender identity so
they could fit in with society and live in accordance
with what society said their God demanded.
But throughout history, some gay and trans people
have stood up to challenge the status quo and say,
“We’re OK just as we are.” Accepting ourselves was
the beginning of Pride.
�Oklahomans for Equality’s forerunner organization,
Oklahomans for Human Rights, was organized in
Tulsa as a chapter of an Oklahoma City-based
organization in 1980, and a handful of Tulsa’s gay
men and lesbians came together in 1982 to organize
and produce Tulsa’s first Gay Pride Week. In its May
26, 1982, newsletter, available in the OkEq History
Project archives, OHR called it “Tulsa’s first major
commemoration of the beginning of gay liberation,”
the Stonewall riots of 1969. Events included a picnic
and festival at Chandler Park; softball games at
Manion Park; beer busts at local bars Tulsa County
Mining Co., Tracy’s New Edition, Tim’s Playroom
and Zippers; a screening of the “Rocky Horror
Picture Show” at the Brook Theater; Gay Day at
Discoveryland; Gayskate at the Rinky Dink Skating
Rink in Sand Springs; and a benefit drag show.
The next year’s Pride Week Picnic, held at Mohawk
Park, drew about 300 people, according to OHR’s
July 1983 newsletter. Records in Oklahomans for
Equality’s archives show that the 1983 Gay Pride
Week Committee’s total income was $1,910.66,
while expenses totaled $1,473.83, bringing the
organization a $436.83 profit.
�Those early Tulsa Pride events didn’t involve
parades and were relatively low-key events in
out-of-the-way locations. In contrast, it costs
anywhere from $150,000 to $200,000 to put on
today’s Pride events.
OHR became TOHR in 1985, when local activists
formed the nonprofit Tulsa Oklahomans for Human
Rights and separated from the Oklahoma City
organization. The annual picnics continued, and it
seemed that perhaps greater visibility and even
acceptance had come to Tulsa Pride in 1994 when
then-Mayor Susan Savage proclaimed the week of
June 19 through June 25 that year “as Gay &
Lesbian Pride Week in our city.”
Tulsa’s first Pride march came in 1997. Without
closing the roads, marchers traveled one-half mile
on Edison Street from Gilcrease Museum Road to
Owen Park, where a picnic was held. Participants
also listened to music, and community organizations
and businesses offered information and
merchandise at booths.
The second Pride march, in 1998, saw about 150
people march from 15th and Main streets to Veterans
�Park (now Dream Keepers Park) at 21st Street and
Boulder Avenue.
The 1999 event was the first parade that involved
street closings and police escorts. Tulsa’s first Pride
parade went from 38th Street and Peoria Avenue in
the Brookside District to 31st Street, then west to
Riverside Drive, and then north to Veterans Park.
With the political and social environments of the
times, it took Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights
quite some doing to acquire a permit for the parade.
The Tulsa City Council delayed a vote on the permit
twice before finally approving it. In the meantime,
one councilor, Sam Roop, had proposed and then
dropped a resolution stating that the City Council did
not endorse the June 12 parade. The Tulsa World
reported that Roop had been concerned that
approval of the parade permit “might be construed
as an endorsement of the ‘gay pride agenda.’” In the
end, he joined the other councilors in unanimously
approving the permit – but not the “lifestyle.”
Tulsa World archives record that Councilor Darla
Hall said that "the gay community is not before this
council tonight so that we can stand in judgment of
�their lifestyle. They will appear before God for that,
just as we all will answer to God for our lifestyles.
I only pray they are as prepared for that day as they
are for the parade.”
But with the parades came increased visibility. The
keynote speaker at a gala hosted by Tulsa
Oklahomans for Equality and the Cimarron Alliance,
as well as the grand marshal of the first Pride
parade, was U.S. Rep. Barney Frank of
Massachusetts, who brought with him increased
media coverage of Tulsa Pride. Big names were also
included in the next year’s Pride, which showcased
as gala speakers and co-grand marshals Olympic
diver Greg Louganis and Col. Grethe
Cammermeyer, who had successfully challenged her
dismissal from the Army for being a lesbian and who
later worked for the repeal of the military’s Don’t Ask,
Don’t Tell policy. That same year, 2000, the Rev. Dr.
Mel White, founder of Soul Force and author of
“Stranger at the Gate,” spoke at the Tulsa Pride
Week Interfaith Service.
Activities related to Pride were growing in number,
too, with film festivals, book discussions, high school
gay-straight alliance showcases, Council Oak Men’s
Chorale performances, PFLAG parents panel
�discussions, art shows and a NAMES Project AIDS
memorial quilt display included along with a parade
and festival during Pride Weeks by the early years of
the 21st century.
By 2001, the parade route had shifted to Cherry
Street, with step-off at 15th Street and Utica Avenue
and the conclusion again at Veterans Park. Archives
show that the annual parade continued along that
route until 2009, when it ran through the Arts District
and ended at the Diversity Festival’s new location at
Centennial Park (now Veterans Park), at Sixth Street
and Peoria Avenue. During those years,
paradegoers mixed with athletes and the crowd
watching Tulsa Tough bicycle races in the Arts
District.
TOHR changed its name to Oklahomans for Equality
in 2006 in advance of the opening of the Dennis R.
Neill Equality Center – OkEq’s permanent home – in
February 2007, and in 2011, the festival was moved
to Fourth Street – Pride Street – and Kenosha
Avenue in front of the Equality Center. In 2014, the
parade route shifted to start at Boston Avenue
United Methodist Church, 13th Street and Boston
Avenue, still ending at the Equality Center. The
�annual Rainbow Run’s inaugural year, with a 5K
race and a 1K fun run, was 2014.
The timing of Tulsa’s Pride parade and festival
changed in 2024 to October to avoid the extreme
heat of Oklahoma’s summers and to coincide with
LGBTQ History Month and National Coming Out
Day, Oct. 11. The Equality Gala and other events still
take place in June.
Inclusion and acceptance have grown along with
Pride, with some push and pull, advancements and
backlash, along the way. This year’s events this fall
are expected to draw nearly 70 parade entries, with
a crowd size along the parade route estimated at
10,000 and attendees at the Pride festival projected
at 26,000.
The Oklahomans for Equality History Project
encourages you to learn more about OkEq’s history
by visiting our online archives at history.okeq.org.
�
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Title
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[2026] History of Tulsa Pride
Subject
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Tulsa Pride history
Creator
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Mary Bishop-Baldwin
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
June 23, 2026
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Copyright (c) 2026 Oklahomans for Equality
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An account of the resource
5 pictures and 1 article regarding the history of Tulsa Pride celebrations.
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Oklahomans for Equality
Oral History Interview
with
Jeremy Simmons
Interview Conducted by Dennis Neill
Date: January 21, 2026
Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI,
February 26, 2026
Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A
Oklahomans for Equality
History Project
621 E. 4th Street
Tulsa, OK. 74120
918.743.4297
historyproject@okeq.org
1
�About Jeremy Simmons
Keywords
Jeremy Simmons, LGBTQ+, sexual orientation, HIV awareness, community
advocacy, personal identity, religious background, nonprofit management, Tulsa,
equality
Takeaways
Jeremy grew up in a conservative, religious environment.
He navigated his sexual identity amidst societal expectations.
Experiences of bullying shaped his understanding of acceptance.
He identifies as more attracted to men but has explored bisexuality.
Performance art has been a form of self-expression for him.
Community engagement has been a significant part of his life.
He has worked with various organizations for HIV awareness.
Transitioning from OKQ to HOPE was a pivotal moment in his career.
Nonprofit management presents unique challenges and opportunities.
He believes in the potential for positive change in the community.
Summary
In this interview, Jeremy Simmons shares his journey of self-discovery and advocacy
within the LGBTQ+ community. Growing up in a conservative, religious environment,
he navigated the complexities of his sexual identity while facing societal expectations
and bullying. His experiences shaped his commitment to community engagement
and HIV awareness, leading to significant roles in various organizations. Jeremy
reflects on the challenges of nonprofit management and expresses hope for the
future of the LGBTQ+ community, emphasizing the importance of continued
advocacy and support.
2
�Chapters
00:00 Jeremy Simmons Oral History Interview January 22, 2026
01:24:24 Introduction and Early Life
01:27:21 Religious Background and Identity
01:30:25 Navigating Sexual Orientation in Adolescence
01:33:35 Experiences of Bullying and Acceptance
01:36:31 Understanding Bisexuality and Self-Identification
01:39:24 Relationships and Social Circles
01:42:27 Coming Out and Community Engagement
01:45:21 Work History and Involvement with Equality Center
01:48:09 HIV Testing and Support Services
01:51:19 Challenges in Healthcare Access
01:54:15 Personal Experiences with HIV and Community Support
02:03:57 The Evolution of HIV Treatment and Public Perception
02:08:30 Community Outreach and Testing Initiatives
02:13:33 Navigating Funding Challenges in Nonprofits
02:20:23 The Impact of Government Regulations on Nonprofits
02:25:31 The Journey of Hope: From Formation to Growth
02:32:55 Reflections on Personal Growth and Community Engagement
02:40:16 Advocacy and the Changing Landscape of LGBTQ+ Rights
02:47:42 Looking Forward: Optimism for the Future
Jeremy Simmons Oral History Interview January 21, 2026
Dennis Neill: Good afternoon. It is January, the 21st, 2026, and we're in the Nancy
and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library at the Equality Center and we're having the
opportunity to interview Jeremy Simmons. And Jeremy, would you state your name
and give us some basic biographical information, like your birthday, your early
growing up experiences, a little bit of your family background that you might want to
share and your early education?
Jeremy Simmons: Sure, Jeremy Simmons, I grew up in and around Bartlesville, so
Washington County, so in the city of Bartlesville and it's, and in very small places like
around Ramona and Tulala, like so in the middle of nowhere. At one point we had a
3
�house. It was like a half a mile away from anybody, so remote for some of that. I was
born a long time ago and I'm much older now and I moved to Tulsa in 94 and that's
where I've lived here over half my life and because it's been so long and like all of
my adult life, I think of Tulsa as my home now.
Dennis Neill: And where'd you do your elementary and high school work?
Jeremy Simmons: That's a great question. I did it in different, at Caney Valley in
Bartlesville, where the two schools that I was in and Wesleyan religious school at the
beginningDennis Neill: is that the one in Bartlesville?
Jeremy Simmons: Yes
Dennis Neill: What year did you graduate from high school?
Jeremy Simmons: Sometime in the 90s, and they have 56 peopleDennis Neill: Did you go immediately on to post-secondary?
Jeremy Simmons: Not right away. I spent a little time at Tulsa Community College
trying to sort of know what I wanted to do, and then I went to the University of Tulsa
later in the 90s. I have an associate's degree in humanities from TCC and I had
worked on a sociology degree that I did not complete.
Dennis Neill: Okay, great, great, anything else that you can share with us about your
family background, like siblings or other information you want to share about?
Jeremy Simmons: So my life before I moved here was quite different and I don't
really like to dig super deep into it. Just to be honest with you. I feel comfortable
saying I grew up in extremely isolated rural areas, pretty religious background, as
you can imagine.
I did pre-k, kindergarten and first grade at the Wesleyan school, which is quite
traditional conservative. So, coming from that background, although the interesting
thing about it was kind of interesting going to the Weslyan School, I was surrounded
by people from different countries and different races and nationalities, so then going
to smaller schools and being not around that was sometimes more conservative,
honestly, being in the public schools in a small town.
Dennis Neill: Talk a little bit more about your early religious experience and how
that's evolved over time. Any intersection with how you identify from a sexual
orientation?
Jeremy Simmons: Oh, that's a great question. So for me, in the way that I grew up,
so all of my family was very religious and most of the people in my area were just
very religious. So religion just dominated everything. And at one point for many
years, next to a Southern Baptist Church, it was this like the second biggest building
in town after the school. So it makes quite an impression.
I was very Christian in a very traditional conservative way because I thought that
that was there wasn't really any thought about it. It's like when you grow up in rural
spaces a lot of times it's just like, everybody thinks that abortion is wrong and
4
�everybody thinks that homosexuality is wrong and everybody supports the troops
and it's like they're sort of a far-right cultural line that blends with the religion and you
just like 80- 90% of the people feel that way, or they pretend to.
Yeah, so when I was quite young I was actually fairly conservative, which, looking
back, it's kind of like okay, but then it's just kind of hard to integrate that old life with
who I was later.
But I also started making out with boys when I was a very young.
Dennis Neill: Do you mind sharing what age you're talking about?
Jeremy Simmons: Definitely by sixth grade, maybe by fifth grade range, roughly so.
So even though everybody was far right religious, there was same-sex stuff and
drinking. There were things that always happened. They were just very underground.
You just had to be very, very careful about them, right?
Dennis Neill: In that period, were you also trying to deal and date the opposite sex
while you were in junior high, high school? How did you kind of blend those thoughts
with your other aspects of your peers?
Jeremy Simmons: That's another really great question and it's so hard to put into
words. So, without, especially without doing like getting into psychobabble language,
but cognitive dissonance is definitely a thing. I viewed myself as heterosexual and so
I had girlfriends, but I didn't want to have sex with any of them and I did want to have
sex with men and so, but it got to a certain point. as you get older, I think it's harder
to even be gay undercover in some of those situations. I stopped doing anything with
boys by probably 14, 15, definitely 16..
I remember by the time we were all driving age for sure, , like none of us were doing
that anymore. It was considered like something that you just did as a kid and didn't
talk about it anymore. So I just thought I genuinely thought for a while that if I just
kept giving it a try, I'd meet the right girl. That's where my head was with all that.
Dennis Neill: And did you go to like the proms or the other school events like that
with…
Jeremy Simmons: Very weirdly, yeah, I know, it was like when I talk to people who
grew up, they want to talk to people my age or older.
I come across a lot of parallels, or even younger people who grew up in rural areas
still like who grew up 10, 20 years later than me. They're like: oh yeah, I mean,
you've had to have a girlfriend. That was just a part of it. So also to, I was also kind
of smaller. I wasn't super athletic. Not getting picked on meant being conservative
and being straight and doing certain things.
Dennis Neill: So did you have bullying experiences?
Jeremy Simmons: Oh sure
Dennis Neill: Over what reasons? Or what characteristics?
Jeremy Simmons: I mean sometimes I would get called a faggot or or a sissy or
whatever, something that, some type of equivalent of that. Some of that was
5
�probably more intentionally directed. And then some of it is just things that people
say that are hurtful, like, if someone's slightly effeminate or smaller framed. They're
gonna be compared to being girlish, separate from their gender identity or sexuality. I
think it's just a jab, right, it's something that could be hurtful.
And then some of it felt like more directed. I remember there was a lot of different
experiences. Sometimes a lot of kids that were like one to three years older than us
and that kind of range would try and isolate us and pick on us, and there was a one
time where some older kids may just take our clothes off and I thought something
like sexual assault was going to happen and it didn't, fortunately.
That was one of the weirder things, but that's one of those things that happens when
you get a bunch of other kids that are all supposed to be straight and hyper
conservative.
Dennis Neill: Were there any of these peers as you're growing up through high
school that were more clearly out and comfortable with their different sexual
orientations?
Jeremy Simmons: No, not so. It depends on where. Probably in Bartlesville, but I
didn't go to school there- very much, I think, and definitely not in the Weslyan school.
Like you literally couldn't be gay and be at the Weslyan school, like that's a part of
their rules. So it's like that wouldn't have been it, there wouldn't have been an option.
At that time they only had school up through sixth grade and I quit before then.
There are probably kids that that, looking back on it, seemed more effeminate or
seem more physically intimate with the same-sex. That might have been something,
but when you're young enough, that's all, that's okay. , there's a certain level like
there's a little bit of bullying. But unless it gets like, unless you get really affectionate
or something , like a little bit of that's okay. It's whenyou get into junior high kind
of…Sixth grade and up is when I think people really start having more expectations.
That was my experience anyway, and so everything started to get more codified,
going to the dances and having regular girlfriends, you are serious enough to change
exchange class rings, like there are certain rituals. It's like you needed to participate,
and it was much easier for you if you did participate in that.
So to not participate in that, even if you were straight and cisgendered and healthy,
like, even if you were able, but like even if you didn't have a lot of bullying potential, if
you removed yourself from the heterosexual norms, you definitely made yourself a
target, so you had to either be- and some kids could do it. I remember the few
people that did it- they had to have like a schtick, like they had to be the stoner with
the motorcycle or something, like they had to have something, like you could be a
black sheep in some, in some ways, but you couldn't just be like, oh, I'm just not
gonna date me, buddy, right?
Dennis Neill: Talk a little bit more about the process of when you finally decided
what your orientation was, and how do you identify now that kind of that path that
you followed in getting comfortable with how you currently identify?
Jeremy Simmons: Right after high school, I decided that I was bisexual and I
actually had sex with women, but very little and I didn't hate it. So bisexuality is
somewhat applicable to me, I feel, but it was definitely for me.
6
�It was more of a transitional phase, and I hate saying that because a lot of people
sort of pigeonhole bisexuality in general as that, and I very much don't feel that way.
There's definitely bisexuality and pansexuality and all the other things are valid for
me. I'm just very strongly attracted to other men. I had one girlfriend that was just like
you're just not that into this, you just need to be gay.
I spent two semesters briefly in Stillwater. I always forget about that in interviews and
I was not very successful at school there because I was just interested in figuring out
my sexuality and drinking, and doing whatever, so that actually I always forget that
part that played. But even though it was just a couple of semesters, it played a huge
role in my development because that's because I don't think I would have been able
to be bisexual in Bartlesville or Ramona or wherever Copan, anywhere else around
there.
I mean like none of those places would have tolerated that. At the time in the 90s, I
think a lot of people thought that that was just a bullshit thing, even amongst gay
people and straight people. I think a lot of people were like, oh, there's just two
genders and everybody's either straight or very gay. Everything seemed very bipolar
in the 90s. You were just like: I'm this or that.
Dennis Neill: Have you ever been married?
Jeremy Simmons: No.
Dennis Neill: What about any significant long-term relationships that you want to
share.
Jeremy Simmons: I dated a guy named Robert who's still saved in my phone as
bastard ex-boyfriend for a couple of years in the 90s. He's actually a very dear friend.
Once we figured out that we were supposed to be friends, everything was great. Um,
that's my longest relationship. So when you asked earlier how I identify myself, I try
not to do a lot of labels. I just I find it kind of constraining and tedious and then even
when you get, even when you pick a label, then five years from now, like the culture
and the language is going to change.
It just seems like, oh, I'm just human. But the question is very valid, because I am
much more into men than women. I feel comfortable as a male, and have always
been perceived as more male than female. I feel like it's important to state this is
where I come from, this is what I am.
But I've had fun dressing up as women. I won by comp, by by crowd vote, at an 80s
prom with the full canes. I won prom queen dressed up as Annie Lennox one year.
So it's like I'm not really a drag queen all the time, but I feel very comfortable being, I
felt comfortable being intimate with women. I feel comfortable being in women's
clothes. But I feel more comfortable as a man and more comfortable being with other
men.
Dennis Neill: Do you consider your drag experience like performance art when
you've been on stage, or have you actually been on stage?
Jeremy Simmons: Nnot in a traditional way where I would get tips, no, It's been fun,
something I've done a handful of times successfully and it was very interesting.
7
�To explain more about me to- I am a little bit of an experience junkie, so I like to fully
understand things by immersing myself in them, without doing something like going
really hardcore, then I don't feel like I've understood something. But a lot of times I'll
do something like dress up in drag.
I also was on stage for an S&M ball that my friends did and it's very fun, it's very
engaging, but then I'm like: got it done, so, and I don't really know how to put that
into words when it comes to…when you talk about sexual identity, because some
people like, well, you're a sex addict and I was like absolutely not, like I haven't had
sex since before COVID. Sexual sex is very low priority for me, right, but asexuality
also doesn't feel right.
It's like I say one thing and somebody's always like: oh, so you're asexual and I'm
like: no, like I'm physically capable of having sex and I'm interested in maybe doing it
again. , probably with a guy now in your network of friends.
I have a huge network of friends. So that's one of the nice things about not dating or
not having kids: it gives you a lot of time to follow personal interests and develop
friend networks.
So, yes, I have tons of friends here and I never have enough time to keep up with all
of them, which is lovely. I have some that are much closer, but I don't know, when I
was younger it was much more important for me to identify as gay and I think
because- but I think a part of that was because I was told that that was wrong and
because it was so much harder to do that in the 90s- be openly gay, especially if you
were young and didn't have a ton of money. I think for people who have a lot of
money or people who live in certain cities, it's always been easier for anything .
A lot of that identity stuff was very important to me then, and dating was very
important to me. Then the 2000s hit, I just got less interested in it and so every now
and then I'll date and it just seems to run its course faster and it's done.
Dennis Neill: Did you immediately get acclimated to the gay and lesbian community,
like through the bars or other social activities?
Jeremy Simmons: Yeah,
Dennis Neill: And what was kind of some of your first experiences, going out and
socializing like locations?
Jeremy Simmons: Yes,in the 80s and 90s at a certain point it was okay to go out to
after-hours clubs and and whatever your age was, and then I think maybe 92 to 94
range, before I moved here, they changed the city, passed law saying that they
couldn't do that anymore. When I was a baby, like I remember- I remember going to
Icon that did after-hour stuff and I didn't have my driver's license yet, so I was
probably 15 at the oldest. And while that wasn't a gay club, it was a very gay-friendly
place. Yeah, I remember the name, but where is the location? It used to be on
Peoria, Brookside proper, close to where, I think it was in or near where Sharkey's is
right now.
Dennis Neill: Okay, so it was on that side [east] of the street?
8
�Jeremy Simmons: Yep, on the east side, definitely. Because at one time there was
also what, Concessions?
Dennis Neill: Concessions was across the street, very close there.
Jeremy Simmons: Icon was great. And it was definitely, for somebody who was
trying to figure themselves out, being in an environment like rural Washington
County, and then coming there where there were people dressed in drag, and there
was goth people, and there was ravers, and there was weird old bikers, and people
were doing drugs all over the place. And so that was a very different world. It was
very interesting. It was very fun for me.
I was very young, so I was a little too timid to get too involved with anything, but it
was definitely fun to be a fly on the wall at that time. While I didn't grow up here, I do
remember things from the 80s and earlier 90s from here, because I've always lived
near Tulsa. I remember coming out to some of those spaces that were definitely gayadjacent. And like many other men my age, around that time, I went to the Toolbox
before I was 21, and that's the bar, which is now the Eagle on 3rd. I don't remember
when, but it would have been, I don't know, before I moved here in 94.
Dennis Neill: Did you live on your own initially?
Jeremy Simmons: I had roommates for quite a while.
Dennis Neill: Gay, straight, mix, were they your roommates?
Jeremy Simmons: I mainly lived with a straight couple at first, but a lot of the crew
that I was in were kind of ambiguous. I fell in with a crew of people that were more in
the rave scene. I think that they were, and they were doing, there were tons of drugs
all the time. I remember that much. I think there was a little bit of like vague
bisexuality, but most of them were straight.
Dennis Neill: How about once you left the high school environment and went on for
post-secondary and then up to today, have you personally experienced any
discrimination and prejudice with regard to your sexual orientation or how people
perceive your sexual orientation or close friends that have experienced that?
Jeremy Simmons: Oh, sure. I've actually experienced fairly little. Well, I feel like it's
fairly little. Sometimes when I describe my life story to people who grew up in other
progressive places, they're like, Oklahoma sounds like a shithole. But I also, once I
was here, I was just like, I'm gay if you don't like it, fuck off. I made a lot of decisions
based off of being safe as a gay person. I do remember one of my first apartments
that I lived in by myself on Riverside, the guy made me put down an extra deposit
because he said that if I got sick from AIDS, it was something like that I was more of
a risk.
I was like, but I don't even have HIV. But he was like, no, you're welcome here. It's
just anybody with health problems or anybody that's risky has to put down an extra
$250 deposit, which was a lot of money at the time. And I thought that was weird. I
still think it's weird looking back on it.
I was originally an employee at the Equality Center and then Hope split off, but then
we still worked with the Equality Center forever. I was here one time when a guy
9
�came in and broke a lamp in the hallway and said he was going to something, shoot
everybody. I don't know. That would have been…It was when we were on Brookside,
and so it would have been after 95, but not a lot after 95.
Dennis Neill: Yeah, we were up in there from about 96 to about 99.
Jeremy Simmons: I was going to say maybe 97, roughly. So again, when people
ask me to do the dates, it's kind of hard because I have to pick anchor events. I don't
remember years well. So I know that it was after we'd phased out the 42nd Street
Clinic and integrated into there, and that's when we were becoming more public, as
OkEq was becoming more public about being an LGBT center.
I think that even at the beginning, even when we were doing stuff, there was an
effort to kind of have a little bit of a vague gray umbrella around a lot of the language
that we used. And then when that center started on Brookside, that just wasn't
working anymore. It's like, this is where gay people are.
Dennis Neill: So was that your first experience with TOHR, or when we had the
location there at the 41st apartment, were you ever involved in that small space that
we had with the hotline and a little community?
Jeremy Simmons: Yeah, so like I said, I think in 95 I came there for services, and
then in 96 I came back for services early and started volunteering there. I had a
traditional day-hour job, I think, at the time, and they had night clinics Mondays and
Thursdays, which I think they still do to this day. So I was volunteering on Monday or
Thursday. One of the night clinics, once a week I would come in and volunteer a few
hours.
Yeah, and to refresh my memory, so we had the space there at like 39th and
Harvard on the east side, where the HIV testing center was like at 42nd and Harvard
on the west side.
Dennis Neill: So were you volunteering there?
Jeremy Simmons: The 42nd, yeah, the clinic. So it's like, yeah, you go just past
41st and Harvard, take the right end on the west side there, go into that little clinic
next to Tulsa Cares.
We answered the gay, I think they called it the gay hotline at that time, something to
that effect. That went into the clinic because we were staffed. And so I did get a very
limited amount of training, and sometimes I would take calls for that. So it was
usually clinic calls, but the other line came in too. And honestly, I didn't even know. It
wasn't until then that I realized that the clinic was not a part, I knew that it was
separate from Tulsa Cares. It wasn't just in a separate building, but it wasn't until
then, later, I think it wasn't until 96 that I even really knew that there was an LGBT
group that was in the space.
Dennis Neill: Walk me through your early work history from the time you left college
through the early years.
Jeremy Simmons: Okay. Well, I did a lot of this and that. There wasn't a lot that was
super interesting. When I was a teenager, I worked for my grandpa. He had a garage
in Ramona, and so I did that for a while. But just surface stuff like pumping gas and
10
�bringing people parts, nothing too complicated. And then I got a job when I was, I
think, 16 or 17, which sounds crazy now, but back then everybody just did that at
Walmart in Bartlesville, and that was before Walmart became this massive sprawling
show that it is today. So I did just miscellaneous stuff.
I moved here, and I was doing Thrifty Car Rental which had their corporate
headquarters here, and I think that they've been merged into Dollar, Avis, or some
other group now, but they were a standalone car reservation place that was based in
Tulsa for a long time, and I worked the reservation center for maybe a couple of
years. And I was doing that while I was volunteering with OkEq.
Dennis Neill: Is that when they relocated what is now Legacy Towers?
Jeremy Simmons: Right, around 31st and Yale. And that was kind of interesting
because I got to talk to people from all over the world. But it ran its course too. It was
never like a permanent thing. And so then, in 96, I was volunteering with the Equality
Center, not thinking about it, and they offered me a job, which kind of surprised me. I
don't really know why.
I think so and again, I just, , I grew up in a pretty small town and I come from pretty
conservative background, and so I think people were like: you have to work and own
your own business and and make yourself successful that way, or you have to go
and work for a big company and make a lot of money. There's the concept of, I don't
know, being a social service provider, , or an educator, or something like that it just
wasn't really on my radar, which is weird because I was volunteering.
So on the one hand, it was right because I was taking my time to help for free, so I
had that in my nature. But then also I was like, oh, this isn't something people can do
for a living, right, but it offered about the same pay as I was making Thrifty and I was
like, yeah, fuck it. So it was kind of a lark, honestly, to start working at OkEq.
Dennis Neill: Who actually hired you?
Jeremy Simmons: Claudette Peterson.
Dennis Neill: She was head of the testing program?
Jeremy Simmons: Yes, right.
Dennis Neill: Who was it before then?
Jeremy Simmons: His first name was Jason, so Jason was doing the position that I
filled. I don't know who was in charge before Claudette.
Dennis Neill: I think it might have been Roger Morris.
Jeremy Simmons: Yeah, that name is not familiar to me.
Dennis Neill: Walk us through a little bit about your involvement there and then the
transition process with regard to the testing clinic, as you recall, and the staffing
changes that you recall.
Jeremy Simmons: Sure, so it was also kind of interesting because I thought,
because it's a medical job, and I thought, well, you have to be certified medically, but
11
�the state was doing finger stick testing. They were just doing a little finger stick,
taking a little bit of blood and putting on a blotter card. Didn't have to be a
phlebotomist, didn't have to be a nurse, didn't have to be anything.
They trained you how to do that and it was surprisingly easy, and so I think that a lot
of people were terrified coming in and so just making it feel normal and being nice to
people was the biggest part of the job. That was the most important thing by far, and
we had, I think, four employees at the time and that would shift quite a bit based off
of state funding. When the state contracts would change, like the positions would
come and go. It felt a little chaotic and it did for a long time, honestly, and it's a
challenge for a lot of nonprofits, even as they get bigger. If the government funding is
such a big chunk and then their priorities shift, then it's like, well, you have to be
more of a counselor now, or you have to be more medical now, or you have to do
group sessions now, and so you just kind of have to roll with whatever the grant says
or get replaced. Fortunately they were pretty good…the state and OkEq and then
later HOPE separately, were all pretty good about doing the trainings that were
necessary because a lot of them weren't that complicated. They always kept it to
where less medical or non-medical staff, non-counseling staff could do the jobs,
because it just wouldn't have been an affordable otherwise, because we always
needed a lot of free volunteers and low-paid staff or it just wouldn't have worked.
Dennis Neill: When you did the finger stick at that time, was that still the
requirement to send it off and wait two weeks.
Jeremy Simmons: Right.
Dennis Neill: What was your experience with that? Knowing folks were coming in
getting tested. Did all of them, or a majority of them, come back and the experience
you had when you were having to deliver a positive result? I mean, was there hope
at that period of time?
Jeremy Simmons: Not really. It was really really rough. It was hard getting people to
come in, but if they came in they usually came back for their results. So if they were
committed. We had something like 75- 80 percent return rate, which I always
thought, oh, that's just so, so many people aren't getting their results. But at a lot of
testing sites it was like 60 percent or less. So we actually had a good follow-up rate.
I think a part of that was just being so openly gay-friendly and non-judgmental about
drug use and sex workers and all the other things that people might get worked up
about. We did have a lot of people come back in. It was quite, I remember, being
from experiencing from the other side- like waiting for 10 to 14 days to get a result
back was felt very stressful. While protease inhibitors came out in the 90s, their use
and full understanding wasn't, wasn't in place yet. It wasn't until the early 2000s
where that started to kind of shift.
It took a little bit longer to get it fully ingrained- where we can have these long-term
undetectable status kind of thing, a different ballgame. So then there really wasn't a
lot that you could do. Getting tested really was more about hoping that you were
negative,and then if you found out that you had HIV, then it was a little bit more
about when am I going to need hospice care? How am I gonna live a fulfilling life for
20 years? It was more about okay, at a certain point this is going to catch up with
me.
12
�Dennis Neill: The folks that did test positive, did you all have a referral list of doctors
and counselors that you could provide to help them on their path?
Jeremy Simmons: Sort of. There were always people providing services here, but
not a lot, and it if you didn't have the right health insurance, it could be very difficult to
get into the right people. I remember early on there was a guy named Jeffrey BealI'm sure you remember Dr. Beal- who was like I'm gonna make a clinic that focuses
on HIV care and does a good job of it and it's gay, affirming and doesn't matter if
people do some drugs or have hep C to or any that like.
But a lot of places wouldn't take anybody with HIV. Or if they would, they wouldn't
take any other problems, like if you had hep C at the same time or if you couldn't
pass a drug test or if you didn't have good insurance or any number of things,
because it was already kind of a stretch for them to deal with HIV. So we had some
resources. They were few and far between and some of the ones that did it, like Dr.
Beal, could quickly get booked up.
So, yes, technically, there were resources, but for many people if you lived outside of
Tulsa, if you didn't have health insurance, if you didn't have disposable income, if
you had a comorbidity, you weren't really going to get care or very good care.
Dennis Neill: In addition to Dr. Beal, did you work closely with Ted, his partner, who
was providing counseling services.
Jeremy Simmons: Fortunately, most of our test results were negative. When we
would get a positive test result, people handled that wildly differently. That case
where you just felt like, wow, this is gonna be a really tough case, both for you
emotionally as well. Sure. So there are some people who like, under underneath it
all, have a have a lot of cynicism or cynicism or optimism about life, and so this was
definitely a job that taught me a lot about that.
Because some people who have really terrible circumstances already and then
we're getting HIV positive result, we're like, well, this is a hassle, we're gonna
navigate it as best we can. And then some people- it was just all they could think
about was how they were going to die. it was very clear, they were like, oh, and also
some people wouldn't go into care because then they couldn't let anybody know is
how they felt.
Even if they had health insurance and even if they lived in Tulsa and had disposable
income and didn't have a comorbidity, they might have been so closeted about their
sexuality and in some cases, even if they were openly gay and had everything going
for them, they felt like they could not let anyone know they had HIV or they would be
shunned at the bar or they might be kicked out of an apartment or lose access to a
kid or lose a job, which are things that definitely did happen to people. Not extremely
often, but regularly, so the fear of them happening was much bigger than the
actuality, but they were things that regularly occurred and so it made it made it kind
of difficult.
Trying to get people into counseling was always great. Some people would spiral
and just party and not go to the doctor and their health conditions and overall life
would get much, much worse. So not suicide by direct action, but definitely like, well,
if I have five more years, I'm just going to enjoy it.
13
�Dennis Neill: How would you compare the percent, you said, fortunately, it was
quite low on the positive side in the 90s. How does that compare with today, would
you say, the more recent pattern?
Jeremy Simmons: It's definitely shifted way down. There was a lot of things
happening. It's just, it's a very different, from a public health perspective,
communicable disease perspective, it's a very different game now. So back then,
there weren't great treatments, like you could get on AZT and maybe combine that
with something else, maybe get off and on AZT. There were different things that you
could do. And it was sort of the chemotherapy approach.
We're just like, hey, we're going to bombard your system with a bunch of toxicity
that's going to kill the HIV more than it kills your healthy tissue, but it's definitely
going to kill your healthy tissue. So you're going to get sick at a certain point if you
stay on AZT or any of these other antivirals at high doses enough to actually help
you. It was kind of a gamble. People had to just do their best with it.
Now, not only are people living longer, but their health outcomes are much better
and they're much less likely to transmit. So we had a lot of people who would get
very sick from HIV or very sick from the medications or some of both and try and
balance that back and forth. But meanwhile, they were often having a high viral load
or a moderate viral load. And so their long-term health outcomes were never going to
be great and they were highly infectious to other people.
While not everybody fully understood that at the time, enough people understood it.
You were shunned if you had HIV was often the case, but not by everyone. It didn't
bother me, because I'm in the office around it all the time. But I knew that I was not
the norm. There was so much fear among so many gay men that they might get it
too.
And even if you weren't worried about directly having sexual or blood contact with
somebody, I just think a lot of, a lot of gay men looked at other gay men as, oh, well,
they're going to get sick soon, sooner rather than later, , and they are potentially
infectious. So we have to be more careful around them.
There was, even amongst ourselves, I think there was a lot of people, there was a lot
of, I think, serosorting is a term I've heard, where it was like there were groups of HIV
positive men within gay men that were still, that would still hang out and have
community. Which is why places like we talked about earlier, like Our House, were
much more relevant at that time.
But it's such a different thing now. We would often get 5% or higher HIV rates.
Still over 90% of our test results were coming back negative pretty regularly. That
would fluctuate a little bit month to month or year to year. But oh, when you looked at
year long stretches and multi-year long stretches, it was pretty consistently under
10%, sometimes less than 5%. Now, as hope evolved and even got bigger and
started testing more people, like sometimes the positivity rate would be less than
3%, less than 2%. You see a lot less of it. And the biggest part of that is the viral load
being much more manageable means that people aren't going to accidentally give it
to other people.
14
�Dennis Neill: I know there was an effort at one point in time to really reach out to the
African American community with regard to testing. There was actually an
organization that partnered with testing to reach out to the African American
community. Were you part of that effort? Do you remember the special grants I think
that organization received?
Jeremy Simmons: I partnered with them. So there was, Derek Davis was very
involved, Donald Rose. And this is that thing about human memory. Tall guy, what
was his name?
Dennis Neill: FUSO [Friends in Unity Social Organization] was the name.
Jeremy Simmons: The interesting thing is we just always called it FUSO. They
never spelled it out, so like that was the incorporated name. And they at one point
they- Renfro was also a guy who was very active with them and I worked with [R.F.]
Renfro and then he died, which was one of the…sorry, I'm usually very nonemotional these things, but every now and then he was a very sweet person and not
that…that sounds like a shitty thing to say, like no one deserves to die from
something so painful. He was involved with this group. He was so sweet and he was
so bright and was so healthy and then, like a year, he was gone. Sorry, that's one of
the ones that's always still really hard for me to talk about.
Dennis Neill: He was not only part of that organization but a close friend as well?
Jeremy Simmons: He was a friend, yes, and I knew him a lot better than many of
the others and worked with him. It was very surreal, I think, when it came to the
clients and I knew people in real life who had HIV too. I just had enough of a wall
built up where I could still be engaged with then and care about them. I think that the
grant, the process kind of fell away. He was a guiding force behind it, Derek [Davis]
was very engaged, I think, Donald, and was as well…and I'm- I'm sorry I'm blanking
on that, still blanking on the guy. I can see his face and he's a very tall and he would
come up here once in a while.
The way I understand it, it's just a lot of those grants, but a lot of those things
fluctuate, and so sometimes too- I'm trying to say this politically correct- sometimes
the funding sources change so radically that it it it becomes apparent that either
someone doesn't know what the fuck they're doing or they're intentionally sabotaging
the programs , and it can be hard to tell, because if we're talking about stuff that can
start at the federal level and can have lots of intermediaries.
For example, when we we formed HOPE as a separate breakaway, in part because
state legislators were going after LGBT organizations and OkEq wasn't 100% doing
something right on the financials and it was something that a lot of nonprofits would
do- shell games with money, but it was also something that if someone wanted to
pull the funds, they could do it right.
While it was something that a lot of people did and it wasn't a problem, when you
live in a place like Oklahoma, when someone goes on the warpath against you, it's
just like okay. But even when we did everything we were supposed to do and
became a health organization that focused on gay services instead of a gay
organization, so we wouldn't get as much grief- the CDC cut funding to the whole
state for all HIV programs because the state was just fucking things up so much.
15
�There's a lot of at state and federal levels and I think that I don't want to speak too
much for a few. Because I knew them well and I love Renfro and I still keep up a little
bit with Derek and Donald…I don't know all of the details there- they were there and
it was great to see them being there. And when we phased out of the 42nd office, we
moved over and had two or three offices were kind of designated to the HOPE wing
or that. That's not what they called it then. They called it just something else simple
like the HIV Testing Clinic or the HIV Services or something more generic like that.
And then FUSO had a small office in the Equality Center on Brookside. Briefly.
Dennis Neill: Talk a little bit more about that transition from 1998 when it became
its own nonprofit. How did that whole process, and then when you felt like the ship
was getting righted, as far as the relationship with the funders like the state and so
on. And the various locations that you've experienced in HOPE testing.
Jeremy Simmons: So, as I mentioned, we had some state funders come to us and
said, hey, the state is going after anything that's too drug-friendly, anything that's too
gay-friendly, and they're not going to give you money next year, probably. If you stay
here, they also might audit you and they might end - was happening to an Oklahoma
City agency that got shut down right after that. So, I felt like that was pretty sage
advice.
Dennis Neill: Do you remember the name of the Oklahoma City organization? They
started something called the AIDS Support Program.
Jeremy Simmons: It was something that hadn't been around forever and then went
away. I can't remember it. And they had, because they were a part of an sort of an
LGBT organization, someone there, an employee, had promoted some kind of
material from NAMBLA, the North American Man-Boy Love Association. And that
was just like the grossest, dumbest thing,
They were very, like at their core, that group, it's kind of like when you talk to certain
people, there's like the public pitch, but at their core, they were very much about
grooming and having sex with very young, under 18 people. That was a core part of
that NAMBLA group. So it's like, you don't touch them. You don't have to listen to
their pitch too much and you kind of dig into what's like what's going on. That's what
did them in.
I don't even know that they were necessarily promoting something that would have
been child molesting oriented. They just did something with that group. At the time, I
remember having this conversation with Nancy McDonald and I was kind of against
her, but then as I looked back on it, because I wanted to do a leather S&M focused
HIV group and just call it what it was. And she was like, no, that's not smart. And I
was like, well, okay. That would not have been good.
There's just certain things you can't do here or you're gonna get on somebody's
radar. That's how it was in the nineties. I think this was actually before we split away
from OkEq. I don't remember exactly. I just remember she was one of the ones and I
didn't know her very well and I always liked her and respected her, but we, she was
very, very cautious compared to what I wanted to do. In retrospect though, I get it.
It's one of those things where I was like, I'm happy to say that I would have made the
wrong decision on that call.
16
�There’s just certain things you just couldn't do without raising too many red flags and
then the next thing , and they're going to find a way. First they'll audit you and then if
you're not doing everything right, which many nonprofits weren't in the eighties and
nineties, when you really look into it… like we were on a reimbursement contract, not
a grant saying we could spend whatever. So we had to use the money and then get
reimbursed.
If you didn't do it in just the right way, if you did it and people would be like, oh well,
but we have to pay the lights and so we're gonna do this with that, then we'll catch
up and pay that. At the end of the year, would it all work out? Sure. But you can't,
when you're dealing with the Feds in general or when you're dealing with hostile
state-level people, you can't shell game with the money at all. Or you can maybe for
a year or five years or ten years, like you can for a while.
But at some point they're gonna catch you and be like, no, no, you didn't do this
exactly right according to this contract. And so now we're gonna pull all your funds
and mark you as someone who can't be funded again.
Dennis Neill: So in the current day is the HOPE deal where it's a reimbursement
type of process as opposed to….
Jeremy Simmons: as opposed to a straight grant? Yep. So that HIV money, ever
since I've been involved since 96, whether it was for anybody, like OkEq. HOPE,
Tulsa Cares, anybody, whether it's CDC-based, HRSA-based, this is what you do.
They'll sometimes make exceptions if you can deal with them directly federally. So
there are some exceptions. But most people get reimbursed through the state as an
intermediary. And the state's like, you have to do all these things. You have to show
us that you've paid for it, and then we'll reimburse you.
If you get really lucky, even if you're doing everything right, you're jumping through
all the hoops, and you're spending all the money exactly right, and going to all that
work, something like COVID will come along. They just won't pay you for five
months. Doing that work can be really tough on the people at the top trying to figure
out the money. It is challenging for everybody. It always cracks me up when people
want to start nonprofits. And they're like, well, we'll get government money. And I'm
like, no.
You have to have so much liability insurance before certain government agencies
will even want to touch you. And that's cost prohibitive to a lot of places. It's like
there's just all these big things you have to have in place. And most of them now
require annual audits. And if not annual, you will, at least every second or third year,
have a serious, deep audit. You have to have all your time ducks in a row, because
even trying to do the right thing.
We got better as we split away, we were like, OK, we're going to be more legit about
money. We still made mistakes. We got better over time. There's always gray areas.
, they can come in and be like, well, you're not separating the gloves that you bought
from the state health department money from the gloves you're buying for this. And
so now you're going to have to pay us back for these gloves, because we can't prove
by a visual check that you're the blah, blah, blah.
17
�But we're using all the free gloves you give us, and then we're spending our own
money buying other gloves on top of that. Does that not show you that we're using all
of the gloves? Anyway, any state or federal agency, if they want to cause problems
for you, they can come in and say, oh, well, you didn't do this exactly right. And
sometimes it's not even in the contract, which is the most frustrating. , when it's like,
OK, we did everything according to the contract. I'm like, well, but this is still an
expectation.
Dennis Neill: Did you say it was 96 when you first started with the testing? Do you
recall what month you started with testing?
Jeremy Simmons: I became an employee in the summer. I believe it was July 1st.
Because at that point, the state's contract, their annual calendar started something in
the summer, June 1st, July 1st, August 1st, something like that.
Dennis Neill: And was it HOPE at that point in time?
Jeremy Simmons: It was.
Dennis Neill: Can you tell us what it was and how that transitioned?
Jeremy Simmons: So when we were doing it at first, while Claudette was still here,
when we would answer the phone, I would just say it was something very generic but
plain, like HIV Testing Clinic, or something really just direct. I don't remember what it
was that we said. I don't think anybody was too uptight about it at the time. But we
weren't like, thanks for calling the Equality Center, or thanks for calling OkEq, or
thanks for calling whatever. It wasn't about branding or anything.
It was just like, you've called. Because in part, that building we were in was
separate, and it was literally only for… When the people came in for the gay hotline,
it rang on a different line. So we needed to answer that as like something, Oklahoma
gay hotline, or something. We might have used OkEq as part of that, or TOHR.
For a long time. It wasn't until it was not until probably mid-97 to late 97 that I think,
we started getting warnings that the state was gonna be auditing people that weren't
doing things right. The state was coming for gay dollars. At a certain point before we
left, we were like, okay, we need to differentiate ourselves.
To be perfectly honest, many of us that were doing the actual work were like, oh
yeah, we're gonna have to become a separate financial institution, because this thing
where- and it didn't happen all the time, but occasionally we wouldn't get paid or we
would have to sit on mileage reimbursements and we weren't making a lot of money.
And that's the one sure way to piss your employees off and be like, hey, we actually
have to do this stuff with the money instead.
So your paychecks gonna be next week, or we're gonna give you a paycheck but
you need to sit on it for eight more days, or whatever. And we started calling
ourselves HOPE right before we left, but I don't remember when.
Dennis Neill: Do you know how that name came about or who created…
18
�Jeremy Simmons: That's a good question, because and- and I looked back- when
we did a history project thing and I was like I think I incorporated us both times and Ithere's three people that incorporated HOPE.
It was originally HIV outreach, prevention education incorporated and then about a
year and a half later we changed it to health outreach, prevention, education. And I
remember much more vividly the second conversation because there was this huge
debate about whether we were going to be an HIV specific organization or not and
branch out into Hep C services and etc. At the beginning I don't recall, but I and
Christy Frisbee and Johnny Eilert's were the three people that incorporated the
organization as HIV Outreach. So I was involved.
I was like oh, yeah, that's my signature, so it is interesting what you kind of
remember and kind of don't. But I don't remember a lot of conversation about it. I
think for me at the beginning part I was like this was also the 90s, was a different
time and I was much younger and I think at the time I was like branding, shmanding,
Now I have much, I have much more appreciation for it, but at the time I was like oh,
yeah, sure, yeah, we'll call it the this.
It was like we have to keep the services going and if we don't, I think if we don't
break away, they're gonna come after OkEq, sorry, TOHR. It's hard for me to use
that name for some reason, even though I used it, and so the funny thing is
technically I was an employee of TOHR . I was paid from Tulsa Oklahomans for
Human Rights, so I saw that name all the time. It's just merged, now OkEq.
There was definitely a desperation. There was a lot of board discussion and some of
it got quite heated because a lot of people felt like no, no, no, this is just blustering,
which I don't think was true, but also I get it. It's like sure somebody, some random
people- the state- say this and they're like: have them come to the meeting. No,
that's not how it works.
They're telling us this as a favor because they like us and they want the program to
keep going, and they're seeing what's happening in Oklahoma City and it's duh, it's
like Tulsa's gonna be next. That's what a lot of times the state people do. They start
in Oklahoma City and then, if they have enough steam and need more attention or
whatever, then they're just like: oh yeah, let's go after those guys in Tulsa and
Lawton and Bartlesville, wherever else.
Once we finally agreed to split apart, we stayed at the old building for a while and
then we ended up getting another building space that was next door to Tulsa Cares
again, and that was on Admiral, just a little bit east of Harvard.
Dennis Neill: You were in the same structure?
Jeremy Simmons: Right. For many years they had their main building and then
there was a small building next door that was separated and we were there. They
originally started off the model that they had when at the 42nd and Harvard complex,
where they were like we're gonna be a home for a dozen organizations or more, so
like the Names Project had like a, or Shanti had like a little teeny, tiny office, baby
office there for a little bit. And then who else? There were other groups that had
spaces there and we were one of them. We were definitely the second largest
because of our staffing size and our funding capacities. RAIN [Regional AIDS
19
�Interfaith Network] was there for a little bit before they had their own thing. So it was
supposed to be sort of like a coalition space.
But pretty quickly, it became obvious that Tulsa Cares was getting the bulk of the
money and that HOPE was getting another big chunk of money and everybody else
was like 10% or less of what we were. The staffing and the client needs were
overwhelmingly Tulsa Cares and secondarily HOPE. Over time, everything else, a lot
of the other smaller organizations kind of merged into Tulsa Cares or finally moved
out and got their own spaces. We were there for a while.
Dennis Neill: Can you remember the street address?
Jeremy Simmons: I think it's 3540 East Admiral Street. It's the Admiral that's north.
I can see it always and there's a big church that was on the other side of the street
and the building's still there and it looks almost identical to how it looked. I'm not sure
if it's even being used right now. Blue and white. Tulsa Cares also started doing
group meals at that time. IT started kind of changing what they were a little bit, I
think.
It was still good for us to have a separate space because people were just so
terrified still of getting tested and I think they wanted like the least possible human
interaction, the most private parking lot just as possible. We were there for three
years to five years. I know that's a very broad term. I don't know exactly how long we
were there.
Then Tulsa Cares just kept growing and growing and growing and we were slowly
growing and we were definitely, so we became the last two. All the other places
weren't there anymore. And at a certain point Tulsa Cares was like, hey, we need to
have a pantry and we need to expand these food services and we just cannot do this
without a lot of extra physical space so you guys are going to need to go. And that
was kind of debated and I think my director at the time thought that it wasn't going to
happen and it ended up happening though.
Christy Fresbee and I were the only two people that were incorporators on both
times that we did the name change. We needed space, we had a lot of money for
staffing and medical services but we were having a really hard time getting money
for a facility and that's just a much, rent or owning is just its own thing. And
Community of Hope on 25th and Yale was kind enough to let us stay there for like a
year and a half to two years as a temporary transitional space.
Then we moved, 3540 might be the 31st Street location. Then we moved to 31st
Street which I think was a 3540 location. So that was on 31st a little bit east of
Harvard. And we were there for about a decade. That was our longest location. Then
we moved to a shopping center for a year and a half around 51st and Harvard and
then Hope bought its final location that it owns now that's closer to 51st and Yale.
Dennis Neill: When did you decide to leave HOPE and what are you up to now?
Jeremy Simmons: I love being at Starlight, I think, but there was a thing going
around for volunteer requests from OkEq for Pride and I thought about doing it but I
kind of enjoy taking a break from HOPE and being distanced from that and being in
some of those same spaces people just walk up and expect me to do HOPE stuff
and so I was like I mean I think I just need to be a little further away.
20
�Dennis Neill: I was thinking maybe the late 80s early 90s Starlight was a gay bar but
I could be wrong about that.
Jeremy Simmons: Forever before it was Starlight it was the Chatterbox which was
definitely not a gay bar but yes back in the 80s and 90s remember how we talked
earlier about there was this golden time for teenagers where you could be wherever
there was an after-hours thing. One of the names was The Factory. It was called
many different things and so I went there as a little teenager but you had to wait until
1:45 A.M. or 2:15 or whatever because they made money as a bar and then
reopened back up and sold non-alcoholic beverages. So yes, that was definitely...
In different incarnations, a more overtly gay space or a kind of gay friendly space.
But many of the after-hours places were…It was kind of Wild West compared to what
it's like now. There's so many liquor laws now and there's so many ABLE
Commission and police…there's just so many guidelines and so many people
watching what you do now. Back then it was just like, yeah, someone's coming out of
the bathroom with coke on their face, who cares?
There's this wild thinking of that. As a teenager, like having access to that world, it
felt like when people say it wasn't Studio 54, but when I see stuff like that for
Manhattan, I was just like I get that general vibe. I don't know how it happens, but
there's like you pay off the cops or you stay off their radar long enough or something
, and it's just like people were just like whatever, and so there was more of that at
those places. It was more of that live and let live, yeah, kind of a thing.
Even the straight people were like, whatever, everybody's doing their own thing
Dennis Neill: Switching a little bit to more kind of the broader community you're in,
your involvement, advocacy, social activities and particularly your board service with
OkEq.
Jeremy Simmons: There was a little bit of confusion and hostility when HOPE split
away from OkEq. I think it was pretty minimal and it was understandable. It's like
okay. There was a little brief period of detente, but I think within several months,
definitely within a year, there was conversations about us doing testing on Saturdays
at the Equality Center. So we pretty quickly moved past whatever that was, and and
started doing regular services here, in part to sort of help- and I've always loved it
here- but in part also to sort of seem at that bridge between HOPEand OkEq. I
became a board member and I became a committee member.
I don't know exactly what they called it, it was something like the rebranding
committee, so it was for conversations around the name change and logo, and so I
was just… I was on a committee of people, some some board members, but a lot of
other just community members, and so I did that and really loved it. It was a lot of
fun- and then got on the general board and then the executive committee of the
board. Again, I'm terrible with years, but I was on the executive committee as we
moved into this building.
Dennis Neill: So we moved in 2007.
Jeremy Simmons: Okay, I knew it was after the millennia, but I couldn't, but it's just
like. That's definitely one of those. I have a hard time anchoring it to another event.
21
�When I was on the committee, we were still in that shopping center on the 41st
Street.
Dennis Neill: You probably had what- Mark Bonney and Laura BelmonteJeremy Simmons: Yep, yep, I was much more involved with Laura because she was
on. …She was very involved. Mark, I believe, was the president, but she was on the
committee that brought me in, so I was much more involved with her, and then she
became president at a certain point, yeah, and so I always remember being much
more involved with her and, while she's on a separate board somewhat, I was more
involved with Sue Welch occasionally for other things. I still, even though I'm with on
the board, I'm still not a hundred percent sure what the different duties are between
the two, like the, the two boards, just to be honest with…the Board of Trustees. I get
it in general, but especially as we moved into the building, there was a lot of oh, we
want to do this, we want to do that, and there was just like there was….It was very
interesting trying to sort of figure all that out still is, because it's like everybody has so
many good intentions and so many opinions and so many preferences, right, and so
it's hard coordinating that.
I- and it's something that I learned a lot from here- and I was like, okay, and I actually
heard someone else say this from another LGBT group in another city- and they're
like, well, but it's different, not that other marginalized communities or individual
communities don't have problems also, but like a lot of immigrant families, a lot of
black Americans, a lot of indigenous Americans….A lot of groups are raised within
their own communities. So there are, generally speaking, a lot more acceptable
norms and like expectations of what is gonna happen, whereas we come from every
larger and smaller community. So I think it makes it even harder to get a lot of
consensus.
We have men and women and transgender people, we have all races, all regions, all
socio-economic background, , and so there's all religions. There's not like an
overarching norm, aside from maybe being an American, which is a million different
things. I think it's just, I think it's common at LGBT centers, to make it harder to get
true consensus because there's just so many different drives.
Dennis Neill: HOPE in a way, it's certainly been on the forefront of advocacy with
its education and outreach, so you've been part of that for decades. Are there other
aspects of our community where you felt like you've taken on an advocacy role or in
the future, you want to get more involved as you transition and any thoughts about
our community at large as its transitioned over the years, the good and the bad.
Jeremy Simmons: Oh, that's a really big one. I've worked with several different
groups. I worked with the American Red Cross doing HIV education and education
around blood-borne pathogens, and it was interesting working within a large
bureaucratic, large system and trying to sort of make it be not scared of HIV, to be
more open to LGBT. That's not my strength is. I enjoy doing it, but I think I need
more immediate results. So I've always dealt with probably smaller groups. I
volunteered for a while off and on with the Nightingale Theater and that was fun
before the theater was here.
There's a lot of small venues here in Tulsa, but before there was a theater here,
Nightingale is one of those few spaces where you could do some really sexually
22
�explicit material, thematically or overtly, like, and so they did like a gay spin on the
Dukes of Hazzard, stuff like that- that just there wasn't a place for it. Now we have
an option here as well, which is great. So that was fun.
I was one of the founding board members with the Equality Network, which picked
up some steam but then eventually merged with Cimarron Alliance to become
Freedom Oklahoma. I think it might have been called something else at first, but now
it's Freedom Oklahoma, I believe. I've not kept up with them super well. They invited
us to come and I spoke to some state senators about HIV laws and changing them,
and that feels good in the moment. It's interesting to do.
But also it's like four senators showed up- what I mean, and so- and they were
mostly women from progressive women from Oklahoma City who were gonna vote
with us anyway. Sometimes at the state level, it even it feels it can feel a little
daunting.
But because of that, I think that groups like OkEq and Freedom Oklahoma need to
continue the pressure because- and sometimes it's just luck, right, sometimes things
just line up in ways you can't expect, like we got law enforcement to to get on board
with decriminalizing needles to a degree, and that's not the group that I would have
thought would have supported us, but they're the groups getting stuck when they do
frisking right.
Jeremy Simmons: Sometimes something comes from a place , and so it's like, oh,
legislators will listen to them, in conjunction with other community groups and public
health people, to to maybe decriminalize this. So we understand it's like: no, we need
cleaner needles so that everyone, not just the people that are using, but everybodyhas fewer blood-borne pathogens that they have to worry about. So there definitely
needs to keep happening. That's harder for me to be engaged with personally.
As I've gotten older, as I've lived and been an American, America has gotten
overwhelmingly more gay-friendly and Oklahoma has not. There's pockets, in Tulsa
and Oklahoma City that are way more gay-friendly. But I just think everybody
understands that those are little isolated oases.
Dennis Neill: Now that you're kind of free from HOPE, that stability, but also that
confinement of being in that one job, do you still feel like you're anchored in Tulsa, or
are you anxious to experiment, go other places?
Jeremy Simmons: I'm open to see where the future takes me. Some friends of mine
moved to Spain recently, and they're making a big pitch for me to come to Spain with
them. Which sounds kind of ridiculous, but then also I'm like, there's certain skills like
bartending that are kind of universal. It's easier to be a bartender in places like Spain
than it is to be a phlebotomist. So, maybe. We'll see. I really like being here, though.
I love... when I came here, I just knew almost no one.
I had tons of casual acquaintances at first. And building up all these deep friendships
and seeing these nonprofits and these cool, unique little businesses thrive here, and
being able to even just support them a little bit in some way, has been really lovely. I
really love Tulsa. So, I'm very open to anything now. I don't feel... So, forever, I did
feel like... And I didn't fully understand this until I left, but I felt like I had to stay.
23
�And I don't really know why, because everybody else left a long time ago from the
90s, but I felt like I had to keep HOPE going. I personally had to make sure that
HOPE was going, which is dumb. Everybody eventually ages out. Everybody dies, if
nothing else. And then everybody gets tired. Like, when you're helping people... I
was a full-time employee for 24 years. And I loved it for a lot of that. And then,
towards the end, I didn't love it anymore.
I think sometimes when you're helping people, you have to make a choice to go do
something else that's more fun or go do something else that makes more money for
a while. I'm not sure. I'm sure there are the Mother Teresa types that can do it
indefinitely. But I'm like, I need to... so, whatever I'm doing in the future, for the latter
part of my life, I need to get paid more per hour than what I was at HOPE, or having
more fun than what I was getting at HOPE towards the end. It has to be at least one
of those two things.
Preferably both. Everybody wants that job, and that's hard to find. But I did feel very
anchored to HOPE. I was just like, we are one and the same. To the point that I'm
not sure it was super healthy, honestly.
Dennis Neill: Well, you provide us with a valuable history about HOPE, AIDS, and
your engagement. Are there any final comments you want to make as we bring the
interview to conclusion?
Jeremy Simmons: While the current federal administration is abysmal, I think this is
some dying last gasps of some outmoded thinking. And so while things feel very
dark right now, I think things are about to get much better in the next several years.
And here, and everywhere else in the United States. And I really appreciate
everybody who's been involved with HOPE, and OkEq, and all the other groups.
Tulsa Cares, Our House, all the other LGBT groups, all the other HIV and Hep C and
harm reduction groups like SHOTS. I just love that I know so many people that are
doing so much great work. And it keeps me... While I personally need a break from
it, I love getting on social media. I love showing up to the Equality Center. I love
going to a gala randomly somewhere and seeing all of the support that Tulsa still has
to give. So, I think the future's going to be great. And I appreciate y'all taking some
time with me.
And I appreciate everybody who's interested enough in this to listen to it. And just
keep reminding yourself that even though things look very... feel very heavy right
now, this is temporary. It will shift back.
Dennis Neill: Jeremy, thank you so much. This is an invaluable interview. And we
look forward to your continued advocacy in our community. Thank you very much.
Jeremy Simmons: Thank you.
24
�
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[Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
<strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong>
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Title
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[2026] Jeremy Simmons Interview
Description
An account of the resource
Jeremy Simmons shares his journey of self-discovery and advocacy within the LGBTQ+ community. Growing up in a conservative, religious environment, he navigated the complexities of his sexual identity while facing societal expectations and bullying. His experiences shaped his commitment to community engagement and HIV awareness, leading his long-time involvement first as a volunteer and then 30 years as an HIV educator and tester with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights and then HOPE. Jeremy reflects on the challenges of nonprofit management and expresses hope for the future of the LGBTQ+ community, emphasizing the importance of continued advocacy and support.
Subject
The topic of the resource
Jeremy Simmons Oral History Project Interview from January 21, 2026
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Jeremy Simmons, Dennis Neill
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
January 21, 2026
2026
AIDS/HIV
AIDS/HIV education
Dennis Neill
Dennis R. Neill
HIV
HIV Education
HIV Outreach Education Program
HIV Outreach Education Program (HOPE)
HIV/AIDs
HIV/AIDs outreach
HOPE
interview
Jeremy Simmons
OKEQ Oral History Project
oral history
oral history interview
Oral History Project
oral history transcript
TOHR
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Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights
Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR)
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[Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > In Memoriam
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An account of the resource
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[2026] Joe McDonald Obituary
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Joseph Leo McDonald, October 25, 1933 - February 12, 2026
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Joseph (Joe) McDonald, MD, passed away on February 12, 2026 in Tulsa. He was proceeded in death by his wife of 66 years, Nancy McDonald. Joe and Nancy were long-time advocates for Oklahomans for Equality (OkEq) and Tulsa PFLAG, serving both organizations in many ways. Joe and other members of All Souls Unitarian Church donated hundreds of volunteer hours in 2005-2007 in the work necessary to open the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, the home of OkEq. OkEq proudly hosts the Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library, serving our community for more than two decades.
Joe served in the U.S. Air Force as a physician prior to locating to Tulsa for a long career as an anesthesiologist. His other civic involvement included building houses with Habitat for Humanity and serving as a reading and math buddy in Tulsa Public Schools.
(Obituary written by Dennis Neill. Tulsa World obituary from March 1, 2026 available on-site only.)
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Dennis Neill, Tulsa World
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March 1, 2026
2026
ALL SOULS UNITARIAN CHURCH
available at Center
Dennis Neill
Dennis R. Neill
Dennis R. Neill Equality Center
Equality Center
in memoriam
Joe McDonald
Nancy and Dr. Joe McDonald
Nancy and Joe McDonald
Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library
Obituaries
Obituary
OkEq
OkEq Equality Center
Oklahomans for Equality
Oklahomans for Equality (OKEQ)
Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays
Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG)
Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays
Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG)
PFLAG
PFLAG Tulsa Chapter
Rainbow Library
Tulsa PFLAG
Tulsa World
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Text
Oklahomans for Equality
Oral History Interview
with
John Madigan
Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins
Date: January 13, 2026
Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, January 25,
2026
Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A
Oklahomans for Equality
History Project
621 E. 4th Street
Tulsa, OK. 74120
918.743.4297
historyproject@okeq.org
1
�About John Madigan
Summary
This conversation with John Madigan explores his life journey from a small mining town
in Canada to becoming an influential figure in the LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa,
Oklahoma. John shares his experiences growing up on a farm, his transition into the oil
and gas industry, and his eventual involvement in various LGBTQ+ organizations,
including Prime Timers. He reflects on the intersection of faith and sexuality, the
challenges faced by the LGBTQ+ community, and the importance of advocacy and
inclusion for older adults. John's insights provide a rich narrative of resilience,
community, and the ongoing fight for equality.
Takeaways
2
John was born in a small mining town in Canada.
He grew up on a farm with 12 siblings.
Education was a significant part of his early life.
John transitioned to the oil and gas industry in the 1960s.
He moved to Tulsa in 1990 and became involved in the local community.
John identifies as a gay man and became aware of his sexuality in adolescence.
He has maintained his Catholic faith throughout his life.
�
John has been actively involved in LGBTQ+ organizations, including Prime
Timers.
He emphasizes the importance of community and advocacy for older LGBTQ+
adults.
John believes in the need for ongoing activism to protect LGBTQ+ rights.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction and Early Life
02:47 Growing Up on the Farm
06:00 Education and Early Career
09:00 Transition to the Oil and Gas Industry
12:02 Life in Tulsa and Community Engagement
15:02 Understanding Sexual Identity
18:02 Faith and Sexuality
20:55 Involvement in LGBTQ+ Organizations
23:48 The Formation of Prime Timers
26:57 Community Building and Advocacy
30:08 Challenges and Triumphs in the LGBTQ+ Community
33:09 Reflections on Aging and Inclusion
36:01 Future of LGBTQ+ Advocacy
38:59 Final Thoughts and Legacy
John Madigan Interview
Toby Jenkins: Good afternoon. We are here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in
the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library. And we have an interview with John
Madigan. John, for archival purposes, tell us your full name, your date of birth, and your
physical address.
John Madigan: John T. Madigan. 04-24-45, XXXXX, Tulsa.
3
�Toby Jenkins: All right. So we're going to jump right in. John, where were you born?
John Madigan: Luscar, Alberta, in Canada.
Toby Jenkins: In Canada. So you're from Canada. Is that a big city, small city, little
town, hole in the wall? What is it?
John Madigan: Well, back in the early 40s, it was a mining town. Today, it's a, what do
you want to say? It's got a signpost to say where it was.
Toby Jenkins: So you were born there in Canada. And at that time, so 1945, it would
have been a mining town. What would the population have been?
John Madigan: 400 or 500 people. They're just miners.
Toby Jenkins: So it was still just a small town. And did your father work in the mine?
John Madigan: Yes. That was his military duty.
Toby Jenkins: OK. He was required to do it, or it was his assignment. Was he assigned
there for security or for just a?
John Madigan: He worked in it.
Toby Jenkins: OK. And did your mother work outside the home?
John Madigan: No.
Toby Jenkins: And how many siblings do you have?
John Madigan: 12.
Toby Jenkins: 12. And this would have been in 1945 in Canada. And your father was
able to support the family with the money he made at the mine?
John Madigan: Well, that lasted only after the war was over. Then we moved back to
Saskatchewan where he was raised to his parents' homestead.
Toby Jenkins: So they had a farm?
John Madigan: His parents moved from Ontario to Saskatchewan in 1905 when the
three provinces were divided up. And so they had to have people to populate it. So it
was just like Oklahoma. You had a homestead.
Toby Jenkins: OK. And so you kind of grew up on a farm then?
Toby Jenkins: How old were you when you moved back to Saskatchewan?
4
�John Madigan: About a year old.
Toby Jenkins: Oh, so you were just a toddler. Where are you in the birth order of 12
kids?
John Madigan: At the top.
Toby Jenkins: You're the oldest?
John Madigan: Yes.
Toby Jenkins: Well, that's incredible. There was a lot of pressure on you. Now, with 12
children, what was their religious affiliation?
John Madigan: They were Roman Catholic.
Toby Jenkins: Roman Catholic. That explains the 12 children. So you lived there, and
you lived on what would have been your grandparents' homestead. So did you farm?
John Madigan: When in 46, 47, we moved to my uncle's farm. And then he moved
back to Ontario. And so we had the farm until 2018. Everybody quit farming.
Toby Jenkins: What kind of did y'all raise? Crops, cattle, sheep, goats?
John Madigan: No goats. No, it was wheat farming. And we had cows on the side for
eating purposes.
Toby Jenkins: Was there a little school in this little town that y'all went back to?
John Madigan: Yeah, we had two. It was called Naomi. It was three miles from the
house. And then when we started to go to school, we walked or rode the horse. We
didn't get to drive the buggy until we were eight, nine years old.
Toby Jenkins: No school bus?
John Madigan: School bus? We're lucky we had a car.
Toby Jenkins: So you had to go three miles to school. Now was that a Canadian public
school, or was that a private Catholic school?
John Madigan: Public school.
Toby Jenkins: And is that where you graduated from high school?
John Madigan: No, that was my elementary. And then they closed it and they
consolidated the school district. So we had to move to town to go to school. That's when
we found out there was a school bus that worked.
5
�Toby Jenkins: And what was the town, the bigger city?
John Madigan: Ceylon
Toby Jenkins: And so they had a high school, a public high school.
John Madigan: It went from first to twelfth grade.
Toby Jenkins: Do you remember what year you graduated from high school?
John Madigan: 1964.
Toby Jenkins: 1964. How many were in your graduating class?
John Madigan: Twelve.
Toby Jenkins: Twelve. Wow. Well, that sounds so wonderful. So you were twelve years
old. You graduated from a class of twelve, my apologies. And when you finished high
school, you had all of these younger siblings. What was your plan? Do you remember
what your plan was as a senior in high school? What you kind of dreamed. Did you
dream you were going to farm? Or did you dream you were going to stay there? No.
John Madigan: No. Farming was not my forte. I was not going to make that as a career
and I didn't.
Toby Jenkins: So what did you do right after high school?
John Madigan: So after high school, then did odd jobs. And then I got a summer job
with the highway department.
John Madigan: The, what do you want to call it? District office was there in town.
Toby Jenkins: So you did that, but you still were staying at home in that area.
John Madigan: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: And still helping with your family.
John Madigan: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: When did you finally leave there?
John Madigan: Then that winter I got a job with the company doing oil and gas
exploration from here in Tulsa.
Toby Jenkins: In 1965?
John Madigan: It's about 67.
6
�Toby Jenkins: 67. Okay. So you're a Canadian farm boy and you went from there to
Tulsa, Oklahoma.
John Madigan: Well, I spent the winter in Canada doing exploration. And then the next
spring he moved us down here to Kansas. That was the first job in exploration down
here.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. So did you have to have a visa, a work permit?
John Madigan: Yeah, I had a work visa.
Toby Jenkins: And so that would have been in the 60s. Were you excited about coming
to work in the U.S.?
John Madigan: Yes, it was a good job.
Toby Jenkins: You were just glad to get off the farm.
John Madigan: That was something to do.
Toby Jenkins: And so you came to the middle of the country and you said you started
out in Kansas. And what exactly were you doing in the oil and gas? Were you a
roughneck?
John Madigan: No. No, it was exploration. We used gravity for our readings. It's similar
to seismic, where they drilled holes and used dynamite for their energy. We had a
machine that was gravity. It would read the pull of gravity. It changed at every spot that
we were in.
Toby Jenkins: So eventually, you said you started out in Kansas. Then eventually they
moved you to Tulsa?
John Madigan: Well, we went from Kansas. That year we went to Iowa. Then from
Iowa we went to Nevada. Spent over about a year in Nevada. And then we went to
Utah, to north of Salt Lake, Ogden. And worked out on the Salt Lake flat. And then we
moved back to Kansas, to Goodland. And then from there, went back to Williston, North
Dakota. And then we moved down to San Antonio, Texas in July, so you know what the
temperature was there, when the humidity and the temperature were the same.
Toby Jenkins: But I would have thought you would have been grateful to get out in
North Dakota in the summer.
John Madigan: That was coming summer. The fun of job, working exploration, was we
worked in the summer in the south and worked in the winter in the north.
7
�Toby Jenkins: Isn't that the way it always is? So while you're bouncing around all over
the midsection of America in the oil and gas industry, were you staying in contact with
your family? I mean, were you sending money home?
John Madigan: No.
Toby Jenkins: But you were writing them letters, talking to them.
John Madigan: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Your siblings, did you make trips home during the holidays?
John Madigan: Every once in a while, yeah. We had vacation time.
Toby Jenkins: When did you eventually land in Tulsa? What year would that have
been?
John Madigan: I came to Tulsa to stay in 1990, in January.
Toby Jenkins: So all of those years, would they have you visit Tulsa for companyrelated issues?
John Madigan: Yeah, the only time coming to town was just between jobs, change
equipment or something like that.
Toby Jenkins: And so what was your thoughts of Tulsa in those days when you first
were exposed to it? Because that would have been in the days we were the oil capital of
the world.
John Madigan: Yeah, that was, well, I didn't stay in very long, but it was a nice city,
liked it. That's why I come back.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and do you remember what the company was you worked with,
what the name of the company was?
John Madigan: They started out as E.V. McCollum & Company. And then when the
owner finally, to decide, when he was in his 80s, to retire, it was called Gravimetrics.
And we had an office down on South Main, just across the street from Texaco building.
Dennis, you'd know where the Texaco building was.
Toby Jenkins: All right, so about what age was it you finally moved to Tulsa, officially,
permanently?
John Madigan: I guess that's 90, that's 35 years ago. You take that from 80, I'm about
50.
8
�Toby Jenkins: You were in your 40s, late 40s. Okay, so all of this time you're here, did
you become a U.S. citizen, or did you maintain your Canadian citizenship?
John Madigan: Yeah, I still got my Canadian citizenship. I couldn't give it up, I couldn't
afford to.
Toby Jenkins: Right, so during this time you would have been a young adult man. Did
you ever marry? Did you ever have children?
John Madigan: No.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you were a farm boy, and you landed this job, and it took you
all over the country. How do you identify? What is your sexual orientation?
John Madigan: Gay.
Toby Jenkins: So you consider yourself a gay man. When did you begin to be aware
that you were different than other people, different than other farm boys?
Speaker 3: 13.
Toby Jenkins: So you began to be aware of some differences when you were an
adolescent. And when you finally get out of Canada, and you're traveling with this oil
and gas company, was this an identity or sexual orientation? You became more aware
of it, more confident that that's?
John Madigan: Oh yeah, because you met different people in different towns.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so when you would travel to these towns, would there be places
to meet other men who were like yourself?
John Madigan: Well, there could be, but I wasn't pursuing that.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. But you knew that, by then you knew that you...
John Madigan: Oh yeah, because you knew.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, so when you came to Tulsa, did you meet any other gay people
here in Tulsa?
John Madigan: Well, that's when I, by 95, that's when I joined Prime Timers.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, but that would have been a couple of years after you had arrived.
What about when you first arrived in Tulsa?
John Madigan: Oh, yeah, we got to know a friend that, he was a Prime Timer too, and
he was working at the hotel that I was staying over in West Tulsa.
9
�Toby Jenkins: Okay, do you remember who that was? Was that just a friend, or was
that a boyfriend?
John Madigan: No, we got to know each other, and his name was Jim Young.
Toby Jenkins: Jim Young, okay, very good. Do you remember, when you first moved
here, did you go to the gay bars here in Tulsa? Did you find them?
John Madigan: I knew of them, but I didn't go to them.
Toby Jenkins: Was it because that wasn't your thing, or you were still, you weren't out
to people at work? I mean, what was the motivation for kind of segregating yourself from
the community?
John Madigan: No, it was just not that, I wasn't a bar person. I went to bars when I was
working, you know, friends and co-workers. When I was working in different towns, I
went to bars, but it was not very often.
Toby Jenkins: So, you met this guy, and did he then kind of introduce you to other gay
men, the bigger community?
John Madigan: No, the conversation got around to it, you know. And he knew people
here in Tulsa, because he moved from Eufaula up to Tulsa get away from the kinfolk.
Toby Jenkins: Now, you had never married, and you were staying in contact with your
family. Did you ever have a discussion with your family that you identified as gay, or did
they ever ask?
John Madigan: They didn't ask, and so I just kept things quiet. So, I'm sure they, you
know, we just don't speak about it. A couple of my brothers, I am sure they're gay.
Toby Jenkins: So, we all just, it's just not a conversation. Now, when you were
addressing this, was there, did you have any kind of internal turmoil? I mean, did you
feel like there was something wrong with you being this way, and so you felt like you
needed to date women, or you needed to make everybody think you were straight?
John Madigan: No, I just didn't. It was not a topic of discussion, even though I had coworkers that voiced their hetero feelings.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, talking about women all the time.
John Madigan: And about gays. You know, they'd run into them in their lifetime, and
well, we got talking about it, and they'd run them down, and I'd just cut them off at the
knees and say, this is not appropriate to the job.
10
�Toby Jenkins: Okay, so what about, you were born into a Catholic family. Was there,
and now, are you still a practicing Catholic?
John Madigan: Oh, yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, still identifies Roman Catholic, and where do you attend services?
John Madigan: Christ the King, Cherry Street.
Toby Jenkins: Was there ever a time where your faith and your sexuality, there was a
struggle, or did you come to a resolution? Did you seek out pastoral counseling?
John Madigan: No, not really. But I knew that that was not the norm of the traditional
religious in the church. Yeah. But just...I had people that had conflicts with their religion
and voiced it, you know, but that's just part of the tradition, you know, that was not in, so
yeah, you deal with it.
Toby Jenkins: Did you ever feel any kind of, um, like you were being attacked or you
were being questioned at your church? Did they want to know why you weren't married,
or,
John Madigan: No.
Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you never had a priest or a religious leader who tried to
reassure you that you were welcome at the church and maybe talk about that?
John Madigan: I never felt unwelcome at any church that I went to.
Toby Jenkins: Were there other LGBTQ people in your congregation that you knew?
John Madigan: Oh, heck yes, you know them.
Toby Jenkins: So, uh, just, just out of curiosity, as an 80 year old Catholic Canadian,
what did you think when our previous Pope began to really make waves and say some
pretty unexpected things affirming and loving towards LGBTQ people, specifically when
he said priests could, um, uh, say a prayer at, uh, at same sex, uh, marriage ceremony,
they, you couldn't do the ceremony, but they could, I guess, bless it.
John Madigan: Bless it, yeah.
Toby Jenkins: What was, what was your thoughts when that happened?
John Madigan: That was, well, the, uh, this is the recognition by the church that we're
children of God. There's no discrimination. It's only humans discriminate against. We'll
always have homophobes.
11
�Toby Jenkins: Were you surprised that the Pope came out so strongly, supportingly,
and lovingly of LGBTQ people? No.
John Madigan: No. It was, it was in the, kind of in the flow.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
John Madigan: It was, the church has, has to, uh, adjust to the society.
Toby Jenkins: So the, the present Pope, who's an American Pope, um, do you feel like
he's going to continue the work of the previous Pope of inclusion and moving the church
towards a more welcoming faith community?
John Madigan: Well, they're going to be more open about it. It was not saying that the
church was not welcoming to you. They just didn't say anything about it.
Toby Jenkins: Very interesting. Anything else you want to say about faith and sexuality
or anything about that before?
John Madigan: You know, since we’ve worked for the last 40 years or more, we made
our voice, our presence known. We live in this country. We're a part of everything.
Toby Jenkins: Ok. So it's, um, you're here, you know that you're a gay man, you're in
Tulsa, Oklahoma, you've met this one friend, um, and, uh, you didn't really, from what
you're told us, you didn't really connect, you know, with the clubs, the bars. Um, were
you aware of TOHR, uh, and it's different names, what we call Oklahomans for Equality
today?
John Madigan: And, uh, I didn't, hmm, may have heard about it, but didn't, you know,
make any concerted connection to it until after I, that both of us joined Prime Timers.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
John Madigan: And then, and then, then right there you had 40 gay people right in
front of you, yeah.
Toby Jenkins: So, uh, did, in those, like in the early 90s when it was forming, did y'all
meet at the community center? Um, do you remember?
John Madigan: We met at the, there was a meeting room at, um, Harvard where the,
uh, TOHR had their call center.
Toby Jenkins: And their and their HIV testing, yeah.
John Madigan: No, it didn't have that, it was, uh, you know, just the telephone. You
called in and.
12
�Toby Jenkins: Okay, the helpline.
John Madigan: Yeah, the helpline, that's right, and because a couple of the, uh, Prime
Timers were working there.
Toby Jenkins: Were volunteering on it. And so they would meet there in the meeting
room.
John Madigan: Yeah, they had a meeting room there.
Toby Jenkins: Ok. So, you, you met this friend, and did he tell you about Prime Timers,
or were y'all a part of Prime Timers forming?
John Madigan: One of his friends that he knew, uh, mentioned it, and, uh. And I think
Jim knew about Wesley, which was the founder.
Toby Jenkins: Wesley, do you remember his last name?
John Madigan Bauer.
Toby Jenkins: Bauer, okay.
Toby Jenkins: So Wesley had formed a chapter of Prime Timers. For our viewers,
please tell us what Prime Timers is, and what it means, and what its mission.
John Madigan: Okay. Prime Timers started in Boston. He was a professor, and he
wanted to have a group of men of like persuasion for older guys to have a place to go
and meet and greet, have fellowship and things. He started the organization in 1983. In
1993, Wesley and Omer started Tulsa Area Prime Timers.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. So it was a chapter of a national affiliate. And so did they have
monthly meetings, monthly discussion groups?
John Madigan: We had a monthly meeting, and we had activities during the month.
Toby Jenkins: What were you doing to be connected to the national group? Because I
guess by then it probably had chapters all over the country, didn't it?
John Madigan: Oh, yeah. Even off in other countries.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, around the world. My awareness of it is, to me, it seems to be
having a resurgence. Do you think that's because there's more older men now that
we're seeing? Our LGBTQ community, we're seeing a larger group of older, middleaged retired men?
13
�John Madigan: Oh, yes. It's more acceptable and open, and there's less conflict and
stigma in this. And then the mission of the organization was to have something for older
men to do, meet others.
Toby Jenkins: And so it was just for men?
John Madigan: Yes, it is just a men's group.
Toby Jenkins: How did you handle, if you had an individual who identified as a female
person, they wanted to be a part of the group, how did you handle that?
John Madigan: Just told them away. When we were at the meeting down at Peoria...
Toby Jenkins: On the Brookside location.
John Madigan: On the Brookside location, we had just one lady come up and says,
can we join Prime Timers? And I says, no, it's a men's only organization. And she says,
well, could we start one? I says, yeah, you can start a girls' Prime Timers.
Toby Jenkins: And there is a similar organization. I think it's changed its name a couple
of times, but it is for older women who identify as lesbian or bisexual. How did you
handle individuals who might have been transgender?
John Madigan: Well, we had a member that transed while she was a member. And
after she transed, then she was out of the group. We didn't ostracize her. She would
come to the all activities.
Toby Jenkins: So as she transitioned, came into the group identifying as male and
transitioned to a female person. And so once she transitioned, she left the group.
John Madigan: Yeah, well, she was identifying as female.
Toby Jenkins: So that would have been the 90s and you got involved in it. What else
would you like to say about Prime Timers?
John Madigan: It's a great organization for gay men.
Toby Jenkins: Bisexual men.
John Madigan: Yes.
Toby Jenkins: And you have, I know you'll have lots of brunches and lunches and you
go to the movies and I know several of you travel to the National Gathering every year.
You have a monthly meeting here at the Center. You have big holiday parties. I went to
one of your recent holiday parties. I don't know how, there's probably 60 men in that
14
�house. And it was a blast and I got hand warmers in the gift exchange. I was tickled to
death.
Toby Jenkins: So Prime Timers, while it's its own separate individual 501c3 and its own
program for gay and bisexual men, you had said that you were meeting, you were
meeting at the Center. You talked about how the Harvard location, the Brookside
location, and then I can, I think the first time I was exposed to you was when we were
21st and Memorial in the meeting room downstairs, which was not super accessible for
people who had, people who had difficulty going up and down. When did you begin to
get more involved with the organization? I mean, originally it was called Oklahomans
for Human Rights and it became Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights and then
eventually Oklahomans for Equality.
John Madigan: I got into TOHR, oh I guess 97, 98, and just since I worked at nights
and Tuesdays was usually my day off. So I'd go down to the Center on Memorial and sit
at the meeting.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. You would volunteer?
John Madigan: No, just got interested.
Toby Jenkins: Now were you ever involved in PFLAG with Nancy and Joe McDonald?
John Madigan: Oh yes. Got connected at Fellowship [Congregational Christian
Church] when they were having meetings there.
Toby Jenkins: Okay.
John Madigan: Nancy. TOHR. Then after that, then they got to, they got started with
the Pyramid Project and just one day I got roped in by Sue and Marcy.
Toby Jenkins: Okay. And what was the, if you, for our viewers, tell us what the Pyramid
Project was?
John Madigan: The Pyramid Project was set up for, for the organization to find a
permanent building. So it's in 2004, was it then? Then we finally bought the building.
Toby Jenkins: Why did we need a permanent building?
John Madigan: Well, because our landlords weren't very good.
Toby Jenkins: Wouldn't let us fly a rainbow flag over the building. So you helped with
that project?
John Madigan: Yes
15
�Toby Jenkins: So were you here that day we bought the building and raised the flag and
we had the bagpiper here. What were your thoughts that day after y'all spent how many
years?
John Madigan: I guess about eight years, you know, convincing the gay community in
Tulsa that we got the dirt. Back then we always had to say, well you don't have any dirt
so we won't give you any money.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so by dirt you mean geographical possession of a piece of
property.
John Madigan: Yeah, and so then when we did, we signed the deed on this building,
then we come up and says, okay now, we got the dirt. We want your money.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and they come across.
Toby Jenkins: We all work together. Do you, so you were involved in Prime Timers and
you were involved in this organization's formation and supporting the purchase of a
permanent building. Did you participate in any of the renovation days that we would
have?
John Madigan: Oh yeah, When I had days off.
John Madigan: when, of course, mornings was... Okay, gay people don't start before
nine o'clock. So...
Toby Jenkins: So, I want to, I don't want to miss it. Is there anything during that time,
anything else that stands out in your mind, like pride festivals? Did Prime Timers
participate in the pride festivals and the pride parades?
John Madigan: Oh, yes. That was our community exposure.
Toby Jenkins: That's what people found out about you. So we moved into this building
and then y'all started having your monthly meetings here. Do you remember when they,
do you remember when they were going to lift the ban on gays in the military? And were
you a part of helping me collect names for our wall of honor?
John Madigan: Yes, it is right over there.
Toby Jenkins: And many of those were Prime Timers, weren't they?
John Madigan: Yes
Toby Jenkins: And we've lost many of them.
John Madigan: Like most of them.
16
�Toby Jenkins: Most of them on the military wall, our wall of honor, which we dedicated
that whenever the ban was lifted. And so, do you remember anything you want to say
about that and what that experience was like?
John Madigan: Well, that was a nice gesture by the organization to honor those people
that served for freedom in this country.
Toby Jenkins: Right.
John Madigan: Even though they had to keep their mouth shut, otherwise they would
have been kicked out.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So when did there begin to be a stronger emphasis on providing
programming for older adults? When did that really take off?
John Madigan: I guess about 2009, 10, when you run into the SAGE organization.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Serena Worthington.
John Madigan: Yeah, Serena.
Toby Jenkins: I heard her speak at Creating Change in Chicago, and it's like, do you
remember me coming back and telling you, John, we're going to start a SAGE program?
John Madigan: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Because this is what everybody does. And can you tell me about those
first few months, maybe that first year, until we finally got it right?
John Madigan: Well, it was just like any gay group. It was about older adults and gay
people in this country. In this town, didn't. There was nothing for seniors. That what it is
all about? It took a lot of voicing and twisting arms. We're not going to kill you just
because you're old.
Toby Jenkins: So I think you might remember that first year, you and I would create
programs. We would have the Area Aging on Aging come. We would have funeral
homes, nursing homes come, and nobody would show up.
John Madigan: Some still don't today sometimes.
Toby Jenkins: Because we just thought we needed to provide programming agerelated. Well, that was a mistake, wasn't it?
John Madigan: Well, it was not what they were thinking.
Toby Jenkins: Right.
17
�John Madigan: Process. When we brought them there, and the whole intent was just to
have those organizations and how they treated us as senior gay and lesbian people in
their entities. Now, how were you gonna be treated after you died when you went to a
funeral home?
Toby Jenkins: Right.
John Madigan: Or you went to a senior center?
Toby Jenkins: Right.
John Madigan: Were you gonna be put in the back room way down in the hall and they
show up every couple of days for you because you're gay?
Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So it had an advocacy element of it where while we were
networking with these senior serving agencies, we were trying to make them more
inclusive.
John Madigan: Well, and that's what SAGE was all about.
Toby Jenkins: Right. So what was it? We finally did that everybody got with it and they
decided they wanted to be a part of it.
John Madigan: You convinced Serena to have a gay conference here.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, we hosted.
John Madigan: And hosted it. And they finally, oh, okay, that's something cool.
Toby Jenkins: So you remember how we began to shift our attention from making them
aware of resources to social activity like trips and pool parties and luncheons and
entertainment, movie days and book story, book reviews. That's when we really began
to see it take off and grow.
John Madigan: Oh, yeah, because we did other things then just sit around and talk.
Toby Jenkins: Talk about old stuff.
John Madigan: Well, about each other. And did things that were interesting to people.
Toby Jenkins: And more social.
John Madigan: Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Creating social opportunity.
John Madigan: Yeah.
18
�Toby Jenkins: Right.
John Madigan: And the trips went to places where the people that are born, raised and
lived and worked in this county had never been there. Never been, oh, I've never been
here in all my life. Yeah.
Toby Jenkins: Museums.
John Madigan: Like going down to Fort Gibson.
Toby Jenkins: Right.
John Madigan: It's been here before the state was a state.
Toby Jenkins: Um, yeah, we, activities began to be, in those days we used to have to
rent vehicles and eventually we ended up with the equality van. And while we were
traveling all over the country going to these things, it was branded so that other people
knew about us and how to find us.
John Madigan: Well, you couldn't miss it, the advertising name on the vehicle.
Toby Jenkins: How did people find SAGE when we started that chapter? Cause we
had lots of interesting, do you remember any of the stories about how people just
showed up?
John Madigan: No, they just showed up and just people come in and say, well, well,
first it was something for the senior group and other than, it was geared to them and
they felt comfortable. Yeah, the age group was right.
Toby Jenkins: What about you? I know you were involved in the veterans wall. Also,
our former director, Greg Gatewood, who had been the former director, he used to have
an event on Thanksgiving day for older adults who were by themselves. And so I felt like
we need to keep that going. Do you remember the days when we finally decided we
wanted to create a Thanksgiving dinner here? So people started out as a thing for older
adults who were by themselves and then it...
John Madigan: Become a community meal. That was giving thanks for us. We had
some place to go to and we had a community that you could relate to.
Toby Jenkins: And how many people would come to those meals?
John Madigan: Couple of hundred.
Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and who would help provide the food?
19
�John Madigan: The allied churches. Oh, they'd fight each other trying to see who was
going to get there.
Toby Jenkins: Over who was bringing green beans or…
John Madigan: Or cookies or cake.
Toby Jenkins: But that was a huge project, wasn't it?
John Madigan: Oh, yes.
Toby Jenkins: And then we'd prepare the meals for people who couldn't come so they
could have these takeaway meals which would be older adults who were shut in and
couldn't. So, you've kind of been involved in so many facets of the community. And so,
80 years old, you look marvelous. I know multiple times you've traveled with the
organization to conferences, trying to remember all the ones you went to, because
every time we went to Creating Change, I would drag you out and make, I know your
favorite one must have been when we took 56 people on a bus to Washington, D.C.
John Madigan: Well, that was, you're not gonna forget that trip.
Toby Jenkins: No, well, especially getting trapped in the Appalachian Mountains, in the
fog, and we had to get out and walk through the mountains to keep the bus, oh, gosh,
yeah, that was a…
John Madigan: And then when we got there, the city shut down.
Toby Jenkins: It was in the middle of the government shutdown under Trump, his
original residency, and we marched, didn't we, against Trump and his attack on the
LGBT community in his first, first term. So, you're 80 years old. And tell me your
thoughts about, your thoughts for the future and your suggestions on what might help us
improve to make sure everybody's included.
John Madigan: Well, right now, in this day and age, is senior mobility. We have seniors,
gay and lesbian seniors, at home that would like to come down here, but can't, don't
have any availability to transportation. We had a lady, senior, ask us about coming to
the OKEQ Senior Group, but she needed transportation. So, you gotta, that way you
gotta have somebody to go pick her up, and her, him, didn't know which one it was, but
anyway.
Toby Jenkins: Would it be possible to work with non-profit organization, or non-profit or
governmental transportation modules to be able to figure out a way to get them here?
20
�John Madigan: Well, yeah, there are other organizations in town that have
transportation for their groups, but they don't have, can they fit in that, or do they belong
to that?
Toby Jenkins: Right.
John Madigan: Life Senior Services, or the VA?
Toby Jenkins: Possibly, y'all could partner with Tulsa, I forget what it's called, the bus
system here has...
John Madigan: The Lift.
Toby Jenkins: The Lift.
John Madigan: But then they, there they have to reserve the pickup time, two, three
days out.
Toby Jenkins: But that could be something that could be coordinated.
John Madigan: Could be, yeah.
Toby Jenkins: What else do you think is, when you're thinking of, you're youthful, 80
years old, you're eight decades on Planet Earth, what, do you have concerns about our
present situations? Just curious, because this won't happen very often, we've got a reallife Canadian across the table from us, how does it make you feel whenever our present
White House leadership is so combative and adversarial with Canada, our nearest
neighbor?
John Madigan: Our present President is, he's an opportunist and an agitator. He loves
poke you on the ribs about things, and it's the things that are done behind the scenes.
With the LGBT community, we got to be on guard 25-8 to keep what we got, because
it'll go out the window in a flash. Most LGBT people think we got it made. Nah, the kids
don't have a clue where we started. That's where the history should start. History 101 to
the 20-year-olds, what it was like in 1980.
Dennis Neill: This being a history project, this is John with Tay and others, when we
drop boxes off for them to help support the resurgence of the history project. So maybe
ask him a few questions about his experience with that.
Toby Jenkins: Dennis has a picture of you and Tay and some other people in there.
What year would that have been?
21
�Dennis Neill: I would say, John, probably around 2002 was when Laura and I
relaunched the history project. And I was dropping boxes off. Would that be at Tay's
house?
John Madigan: Yeah, that's Tay Clare”s house.
Dennis Neill: There's a few more pictures with a few more people in it.
Toby Jenkins: So what we were talking about is all the different things you've been
involved in. So you would have been right there. We got the pictures to prove it. As they
say, a photo, it didn't happen. Well, there it happened. And we got you...
John Madigan: This group of people here that started this were trying to keep it going.
A bunch of women. And most of these women went to MCC. And it was still going back
then.
Toby Jenkins: Metropolitan Community Church.
John Madigan: And it was kind of an outreach for them, too.
Toby Jenkins: So this would have been when Dennis was a young man. So that would
have been 20...
John Madigan: When we were all pups.
Toby Jenkins: It would be about 2002. And Dr. Laura Belmonte, who would have been
our board president at that time, professor at OSU. And you look like you were involved
in relaunching, as Dennis and John, his partner John and Laura Belmonte, wanted to
relaunch the history archives and the history project. So that's what this picture is.
John Madigan: Yeah, they were going through photos that people had for... Going back
for 30 years by that time.
Toby Jenkins: I loved what you said. We have our archivist, Amanda. I felt like his last
line when he said... We've got Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality, and
Amanda Thompson, our archivist. I felt like if you're going to have a promotional, John
Madigan's line, History 101, I felt like that could have sold why this, what we're doing, is
so critical. Anything else, John, as we come to the end of this, our time together,
anything else you would want to say?
John Madigan: We have to fight. Keep it going. They'll run us down. That's what the
young people have to do.
22
�Toby Jenkins: All right. Well, thank you so much. That concludes our interview with
John Madigan here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center on January the 13th, 2026, at
his youthful 80 years old.
Addendum: Photos of volunteers at Tay Clare’s house
sorting OkEq archival materials, circa 200
2.
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Title
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[Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews
Description
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<strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong>
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Title
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[2026] John Madigan Interview
Description
An account of the resource
Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Toby Jenkins on January 13, 2026. John explores his life journey from a small mining town in Canada to becoming an influential member in the LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa, Oklahoma. John shares his experiences growing up on a farm, his transition into the oil and gas industry, and his eventual involvement in various LGBTQ+ organizations, including Prime Timers and OkEq Seniors. He reflects on the intersection of faith and sexuality, the challenges faced by the LGBTQ+ community, and the importance of advocacy and inclusion for older adults. John's insights provide a rich narrative of resilience, community, and the ongoing fight for equality.
Subject
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John Madigan Oral History Project Interview from January 13, 2026
Creator
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John Madigan, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill
Date
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January 13, 2026
2026
interview
John Madigan
OKEQ Oral History Project
OKEQ Seniors
oral history
oral history interview
Oral History Project
oral history transcript
Prime Timers
Primetimers
Toby Jenkins
transcript
video