32 20 666 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/39bbca53890a1550ec9f467e7be274c8.jpg da860761e202deae76dd3a2043fea08b https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/917a3a3976fe27fd719af98ef1ce5633.PNG a39328f9a4aa4a5f405d73a4b061ae79 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/2ff2897d9270f84878e1ba6836c894e6.PNG 8c8451e74bf7b44839d39627752a405f https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/c3e39eca11e7f0eecf1e0bf0be2e12e6.PNG f4b62d79e44ba322c5878cadc7344130 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/36fe306466b859ac1185fe4e952782b7.PNG d810deb587efd3d5bd882dbad39cff57 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e6ea42a24bc4a8ca3c360d77f0798737.PNG 4b3e6d85701a3e2396745ca255b55271 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/bec7aa530c8707a91c790a2baea8fe29.PNG e386159a451e20660398e024411326bf https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/352abe276a3e7af110e3d3d6101edfb6.png 0f047f22d69bb944dd84e9e5115f47d5 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/17928ba6dc659c03451ac55b4850599e.docx ebf2abe0007d5daf2d797ba9f0e6fe73 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Pulse Memorial Images Subject The topic of the resource Pulse Memorial Images from Orlando, Florida, and Tulsa, Oklahoma Description An account of the resource 8 images related to memorials for the Pulse nightclub shooting that occurred on June 12, 2016. The first is from the official memorial site in Orlando, Florida taken during the summer of 2025 by Mary Bishop-Baldwin, and 6 of them are from various locations in Tulsa, including the Equality Center, that displayed rainbow lights in solidarity on the day of the attack. The last image features the names of the 49 victims. This entry also includes an article written by Mary Bishop-Baldwin for the 10th anniversary. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 12, 2016; 2025 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mary Bishop-Baldwin https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/f56f741563dbd7b15473a1dad881261c.jpg c1511ded6641ecd055b69f2ead59f41c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] The First Homosexuals: The Birth of a New Identity 1869-1939 Subject The topic of the resource <em>The First Homosexuals: The Birth of a New Identity 1869-1939</em> by Jonathan D. Katz and Johnny Willis Description An account of the resource A hardcover copy of the catalogue for the Wrightwood 659 exhibition "The First Homosexuals: The Birth of a New Identity 1869-1939", which ran from May 2nd to August 2nd, 2025. <strong>Available for viewing in-person at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center.</strong> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource <div style="text-align:left;">Jonathan D. Katz, Johnny Willis</div> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 16. 2025 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/68f629a3a99a1a975e547e9b59dca447.MOV 516d3e792efcbca6165a3226f5de7a7e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > Our Community Photoshoot and Storytelling Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Tori Bock Interview https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/4fb83d09210cfa4e2f8111858c32df1c.MOV 27e46dd8b33035e8527f4c01511c107f https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/20d3ee4cf7b49c30a1977b2bb8af54da.MOV 4a8453700cdff854b15f5c6ac2e8f091 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e0ee9fe7412370381457f76af56ada7d.MOV 82e2c285a86239473f378a5dfdc40979 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/d647576098602f29b9217aceeb782a0e.mov ce0b7d7bb2fbf8464af5cdcf575db9b8 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/39967e9d6d9419eb925d7ea188f43d68.MOV edd6c3142913c702c12692945b543c3a https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/53d19e49915a307f4a1649264632e18d.MOV 1c0b697b482a5cc5c2c5519274ec7c2d https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/c8d3477e093063c95be032158ad64537.MOV fcab01a67fd5010ce5b32ebaa4901de2 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/2c7f0774c70e23eed663c56e4a57d20f.MOV 2f9fd2e169744be36138299b65f213af https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/6ab26f8fbf2d2f787e5283f0c2b71ed0.MOV 4b16fe7204376079ccd39c59de1aca8b https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/1ff5eb826bb24238c1e534321f05b2b5.MOV 96cf1095b53e7e98f3d6a6e2849aca17 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/5e783a0545a3f1258ef447dc6acab710.MOV fea4b90e82bc1e18241d3c5984261bf9 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e57591a9ec972c8ddf8e282869464f82.MOV 466cbaa9098dac2b9d2ec40a986cc945 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/56bf614f7d50a3b3f8fd1ed3447efeaa.MOV 434aef5edea2bca6988aec941924d56e https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/9bbe2f469a52b4e0de3354405ea25969.MOV c9b0a657514dcf7eb70aa870d3d92fcb https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/bc4a4def747a51b6b0e71b40780b1c5c.MOV 844c15b74e6a51aad663d2ccd6fbef4f https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/f0211df69d7f7fbafd7abed943e56e6b.MOV 07e7f3a7c9603d08eb503ae0c0a8683e https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e2e59b553ce2bd8ead4630b84c00d69b.MOV d9bda288beb61c282f5d899bd724261f https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/f89aac66d35961c879a62e545ec759f1.MOV cd53edb2ec210650c8c0d57c594eb111 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/49251d04bb41220f597c9d5d40abebe7.MOV b5d09a72dae109d37e649145416ee17d https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/4cbe223c42220aabd0a94c36bb406226.MOV 85e85c8613f3b54e8c3cd7053ea93138 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/f5da32bffe83892f1447620c8de2b67a.MOV 5cb94803bb68cc3bb4e001cde2926d40 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/04d4457f14e5e493d42dd7a9edf58afa.MOV 128d674921cdd92f4a3a6833ceb590c1 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/b65ea4f141b91df0f08b350de71890e5.MOV ea04225d2e4e722bc8adf0e24a36b2d8 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/1148f66d0b6f2fd147d8aff8e2c3b5cb.MOV bff7634f4745bf2c3a2a5d1d28138256 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/6d99906db731e100117aaf35e861ad7d.MOV 853d83554edee87954cd6719df2e8d97 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/4f6c9189c775a7392b78d11924f6027e.MOV 053312a5a5deba3e9a62a2d9913c690d https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/d8f1d79defa470d6fde8581241d7b8e4.MOV b15b3db3871d6407b21ac5ba6c36d6e5 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/497b4cc1b68b8fddd7565ce29ac3120e.MOV 084de340369a35fb9ff8cf1ec5dd34b1 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/c78432ec8b9a179b9e52b7f5b3cfd276.MOV 1993f1e70b02097bda063735cbd8be34 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/ad5f0c2f15317103da2d697686010ad3.MOV 9b707b6e83dd323281982325258503ff https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/d0dfe5164a2cdb4ba526b221f5545e61.MOV 826ab7880763a994e4ade18afe184f3a https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/2473752916304d389ce2cc4af6e35e0c.MOV 37bbbe6aa72a08f8572eb583ea3b9243 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e71bbca22eaeb389d9f641762e1dfbbf.MOV a9611cc990fb69a1a621f9b7b057b70f https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/1329fdb4bb1f16042300c0b70a92cc06.MOV ad4f75fd0c47696d5f9b5fedcc044d66 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/bde2bb28491f061d28ce12d8b0e44c43.MOV 2e4ba07fc5d47958b78bfb6cf2f6f86d https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e4d13238ddd17923c6e95b6fc210f8ae.MOV 9f7cedbde659756c6f7b6e0776489d00 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/2a19ac366dc2eb71d999169a1b3b81df.MOV 96b039e48a444bc55e97dc89c5ddfb1e https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/f5948b89dc8e3d77b976e3acf2407cd6.MOV 4dde51fe1252d953c6bdc1eecf20259f https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/39431c7a8ada8731a0cda31c879866a9.MOV bb7a18dd8ae550b970c78e93dc080a8d https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/7cc3756b2b0215d56ec81ae5e4808cbe.MOV ee6e99f38abdeffbc7e52d6301a86bc8 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/b7d63656e938489316faabe7314b2469.MOV cb510b3159d7c27fdcc864c9bb07da6a https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/63b7a44b9fec8b91856a021d26d76713.MOV 38d7c10bffc721d623423f57c4a69f02 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/25c7029e88a4c331b85f2aa33847f88a.MOV 165d45a5ecbd2aa20f87764c580ffd90 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/2608dd59df43abaae0030efc09bce268.MOV bc5fe7197fa3fdb869016c177b7930b0 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/43ad12b4ad779dbca4e65e8c57d3305a.MOV bcf2ad293929bc74ed675832c2948b4f https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/965e8e48c79d3f1390209c03d6450d42.MOV 3f0a0b0249a0a769bc63b5ad2a902f14 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/dacfb01b1056a82c2d0cbf694645b5b2.MOV d162b9de47b478dfaff3786e3b4cf828 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/ddc812fd3178f9438f497280119bb077.MOV 6052eafa3c10d00b4f29be7ff055d671 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/5706da4cbfdac6f59a2dfb9fb37ec35a.MOV 26403630958ff28ef99c02e77945b924 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/4a5aaaa598a7c9a264a344624ba90598.mp4 9b228fbdf35e750becbe63ff5845af9f https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/c810135a64947e20bcd448ab3b4d09ce.MOV 7b5215e7da68b1f69e558f41835cca20 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/842ca8ad478da4866a29d4d5d5285103.MOV a76dbde3c35b92bdc295c7845d83bff1 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/53fb994083912838e3b31c77a86760c3.MOV f86da5ec148be6d4ecf2a429714c14e7 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/4a2b26d220f2f97652d308b38bb641ea.MOV 0dce5de1b2c7432dd7c76cc66526bc03 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/f392c53762078879a60b5ec5b5b3b08a.MOV e68912c0842be77d7cb343f607d132b4 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/0a6f5b3e259260ee6540d93ef63fd3e1.MOV c59189e6234b4a116417a883cfaa1cf9 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/367e4cfb2f3082993473b6e0066b1656.MOV 52132bb0474beb244ec12a2c905e5c84 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/634ea3f9bc701151a19b453767bb74f8.MOV 24dd9eae5fde468e6f4596c7580340c9 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/fa9560dd1a540a8c0bfe0998a9c62b58.MOV b2792296fec444d4b4d361979bb082f5 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/9a3a9f333632442f7e77ab64c39f0996.MOV 79db65292dfa3f699b8970338ac5c1ac https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/3b4d10004c1341bb0aa18362f8989576.MOV 2aa7ed5832c5863e0d2f32c2b709b44f https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e322c66b124c8d0fe1a739ed3373f0fb.MOV 78322aecb29d806c6c5f4d1748dcfb55 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e259d3f54dd7308e4ee5f00d236ff697.MOV 824eaf21a74eca3f94eb572d3a6fa262 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/2b794ac67e7b75b5004c7cf0a299c4f9.MOV b2a6c40dcdc0acdc898ee297f94c0e93 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/d76c2f08e1ebb61236768a27a332fc97.MOV bd490f005e842f9bb42c0bb017a7d7fb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Tulsa Pride Parade & Festival Videos https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/5b3dff8ecb16c4b40e02384733d6268b.jpg 1a50cedf08fd08351ad02a3ed7f86cf2 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/5ff00b6a471fb57d7e51eac3671a2a83.jpg 73f42030c7ac6be26c3b5c907a9578cc https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/2ba2d8f137ae7d2cc3676f591395aea7.jpg d8d370681e1bf9125c4a4aafe19cf706 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e114816569324aea033f217093596afc.jpg 9e524163c14c5e7f71b75eb5da7448bb https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/4947ec3408dd3f1cea351ea800eb492e.jpg 1c228253e872fb0f6dbb59ca08834704 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/267cb122c571fa02bbb01df837044fd2.jpg ba68098f5b38e1e8eb8953fbc9139988 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/c601cf007aaef5688966a53c87156849.jpg af10b31b332943a8426418b69573e303 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/45f83f866366cb2e68c8e62ca6033e6f.jpg 883c62bb20dea18d5c721fef29935b12 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/2b378034eeab5b575e9896c59826e916.jpg fdbbcb07583129a3249177c3c975d656 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/b4be615655020147e6f43e3a5930041c.jpg 2acecd320eb93da5b5371e013c8d5234 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/1826b891e71eab678a881a278e9b9743.jpg 34042f9e9447ef57968158f545cf9314 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e537c9d4b65eb87a4b383d83ee1c3974.jpg a9b0b119a74e768b58fcb508cbddee07 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/d972c97d1eb4d735d03096018c78eccb.jpg d8b24cd174be38382e15b2df33a119b2 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/ec51ef080445be696f41c0871ac13692.jpg 5751527113d5b6b4d496314313239573 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/d3bf566f904d8f144d7bf92e69c78474.jpg 1accd7df63b42baa47f67b116008cf60 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/4f4074b803128894502838e0957164e2.jpg d8a10a465e9f4c13d8e8721e6b0eaf57 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/18cdf9e4bf87861dd5786b5acb2b990a.jpg 70622f303029f2fbe8c69e0913ca0fbd https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/fd9a7448b6222e3f0ebf595d2c3afcf5.jpg 256d4abc52cdf4bd1af50aff18a89789 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/92f1db881187aaa6cc6a0a0148869ed3.jpg bfe8782dd62cf40a93020a4daff06d80 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e80b30eba35bec8f13e147a13618ee2f.jpg d0319535490239c39ca3061d5efaa7cf https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/64492b2b84d81a756613e5cdf683ca8c.jpg a33c74e7aeaaf8c369caa8c8a5b4935c https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/60fc0d7e38c51d363adc26672822ca83.jpg f8cbc3f903a9a420164509fdd39de8ea https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/ffa56c1bdeec393dcb8c6e0ac041bb0b.jpg 083adcc2d04bf9159fe5f0c700ff4479 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/58da01fb717ceb585de1607ea94577b0.jpg 4535bb098215909cbb766a024f45eb54 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/b7ad13060553ed51648caf21bdcf44b5.jpg 60e32ff5fa8a9d339e6ce5334a0cad49 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/02c5847bc43aebc4632f654bbc1660a3.jpg 1d9806f269890ea0a347a535788856bd https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/2783ec8a71ad53365a48a212ab8f44a3.jpg 38fd7e3a2be6bbba1c2a81033d8d1ca1 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/2384ce096c3b4b9f7c6fdbbd44aa0102.jpg 651947d5cd0829ba9e5ac30631283187 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/f03f0aa053b82905be552e7e0b91aa38.jpg afe9cee905f195a7cd8d4444045598e0 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/8a3df6791f2aa92b9f13af2592466661.jpg a115eb320df76b7c1a5381bbbe4569d4 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e7fea370762522c289a54178ebaa7243.jpg 03bf42a288a69be5c0d90d0920a4b746 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/07527d472f6a26316589568b14d5f88f.jpg fb195394384b0e61eb57d3f0fff88b84 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e8455dd4e71daa216d21109756d1d69b.jpg 7855f6d91c20b58587b5a50bd56684e9 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/b0cc9982949518c04a45c6719f90dd96.jpg 48331390ff54cb27ac534ce6c6ce8e90 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/4baa34c3356b76f6bbed1fb960aa3633.jpg 59b7d366cb1191f6f00a6f6c987a865d https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/99a7a9b922f7d7234bf8f2a8fd99b1a7.jpg 77b90b5006b65b769f75bee8d6ee0e1e https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e6655590011af92f05cdd1c906db614b.jpg 6e53a17bfe2dca7f1275fd9fe0502b15 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/77223e119dcc063820ade1e1e771d808.jpg 27aa4dbd5f8a6f6b5564a92cba53954c https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e34cfc359532bedae9099f11e3fe138d.jpg 9ef9fe126ec97cf48e8c73731460ec9c https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/7efe6a0775b516c39f0923a01bd7d1a4.jpg ea47351cc597a0053c92a83353176194 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/9f6a845ae61c8e90df321a8ece6dbc2c.jpg b20c7389892ee2bf9771c47f444a25cf https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/1f9475a2b8d2245c42e014a518627107.jpg 1c5a0768c3fd2cd897f4f8324e663aed https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/25b2397130bcc7af39268f3c8814ae2d.jpg a3311a1a60c9308f76ec1ab6d1b9228e https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/eda34aa42e7a3e0c1b00c42350485dc2.jpg 1492c0fcb8e80c347a2d7a7401160da1 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/6f677063ef37434231bd3d1ea48c9992.jpg e1184dcc34b163f58c78cf30d8136851 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/7b245a521ee0050874a54cc9efa80441.jpg 4796ad204948189450a44e6e674bad29 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/259ae2bea3fa0b1a40ab99ca96037fde.jpg 380e456288ccec0f9067e9b4c82d183a https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/f2c60472a308433428c45c8a19d104c4.jpg 0859fcfaa4f10c8eb001857ac2591acd https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/f14bd9d88b8450256a484e085bbf93a4.jpg 2dba640805c350627a9c8ed22b877478 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/eae6fa4831c894e7e25e86c6a7219170.jpg 50fad5d91a0c66dce1fe671ffc43785f https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e4de2a42ab39a2a5f99330220aafdfad.jpg 01d576c6b8bbc4504ae0387cadd58965 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/9e3d7e3bdce6388b425cd38ee7df3c42.jpg 60deacecdd8eded8a057b56ff590970e https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/4cadac7f90a02a90720efe72aac64e4a.jpg cb0890cbc8600a0e43ff9dc3ee268dd1 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/4b1f96c36a4a5a79a01c6b2f0cc2b8b0.jpg 4cec261421d78cb112d8925844946a00 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/69be44d1def35ccfa9dd6075d50110b0.jpg ce5ad2b2109067e7e47d2c52e074dbba https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/d344ab043790fdd32c05e6a734576e8d.jpg e67ada095a73f832b4575bbe9469eb97 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/2da8925b72f0e3f8694590c051361bc2.jpg 5125fda9848cd1c654752149b4920a0e https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/304108e5fa03b85721ab36f96144919d.jpg baeacf42b444b65322847f7dfca20c92 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/f5ec278e64cb545de8b8f81ee48b28a3.jpg a2e91d709a8c1a91678301f03e427b5a https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/9b5e4a6ae5741202c688680dc7c77e6a.jpg bef5322865aacf10a45b201c7dd46401 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/f3e8cf517a76827df1d10f1b76672962.jpg 36d097cd8a5d9878fc24df6d2c7b9fdc https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/60f321406066278e9044f2375d7b3d5d.jpg cf764947536997240012738c4efedec3 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/4581deba6e3a0f86c799b845dfe59e4e.jpg 0634553cf5d5cf5ef40c5e2f730429fc https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e01a5a77c6f8ebb83beb94d0286bd9b8.jpg c8da650477a488466f45922fb6b5e5b5 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/f524b8c2ce58421b14587377ad2d17ab.jpg 4e57c310d25e3062707382ff0a408bb8 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/42f9a197a392cf574a9f86917092780c.jpg 98410039d6632440f2853361a9185326 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/7a791592123f478033e0436d49a1c847.jpg 8eaaeccb9323cc1ef938182a05e490d7 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/dcb81bde30a104eec41dd99db4606eb2.jpg 7fa3fd1fb60b956666a4d8592595384e https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/9575a02d2b216374dab5293d384b2c0e.jpg 6464aed623d3f66a2b02b1fe7d5f6575 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/719080b90ce65ed95254287fd2f84b54.jpg c1ef1572ddb3ca8ac6a81a0e6af489af https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/7eb09f04182f6683f4615a56b1a8d661.jpg 8cbd1f0066b6ad38277c3c4a9173c6af https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/0ea0caa9dbf5a8fd1f7b7eeda4a3a1ba.jpg e60844245c7c1aa7152b77be7ee5ac78 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/9ad7f59e1a629c8b7ff9d52cf50b8bd1.jpg 0af96fe3a6900de47d7111a8649b1310 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/4cccf8382e17f2422c74cb4d85ce5ff8.jpg 2e7a3748a166ea08cf6b29be43d680d1 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/3d96f25c3644ec2a44002b21b78e6e2c.jpg 5678da5d3adbc89c5fd634ebfc34ec9f https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/3ad98e126220b342b8771467c04458d9.jpg 492fdda444a2086aa7000cbd9394291c https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/2ac8e9c73e90734573fada2495ab68df.jpg b150d7e2d5b5571ed9948befa3e05bc4 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/4b22c92d46066d323f75748fdc63cdee.jpg 065f1220859eb559e97605d9a3d83b2a https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/f39c7741a51eb9e45194d9ce28ef0a3d.jpg 002cec20bbda828eb37e6e9c439239cc https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/ca906a3a467a594b5ea3f941ec910e1b.jpg a350d920101d879562ae0519f9d29de6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Tulsa Pride Parade and Festival Photos https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/5a2d5f174609df9930fd7f67a9e17d7f.MOV 27c980e2a1a1047ad6c3ab7d2035ec21 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > Our Community Photoshoot and Storytelling Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Whitney Cipolla Interview https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/b3d7a6a444abaaf35bcc9695a5df8f15.MP4 7e3f93f6d1827bd4237ac041c5acc846 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > Our Community Photoshoot and Storytelling Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Zen Hatlong Interview https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/2193e3569351ea3010b2f1db940345a8.pdf 61990c5d66826db5bcea65c3e248a9e2 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality History Project The Oklahomans for Equality History Project remembers former U.S. Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., who died on Wednesday, May 20, after a political career that included fights for gay rights and tribal citizenship for the descendants of former tribal slaves. Frank was the first member of the U.S. House of Representatives to publicly acknowledge that he was gay. “His public declaration of his sexual orientation in 1987 — spurred by a fear of being outed, by the death of a closeted colleague and by his own determination to show that homosexuality was nothing to be ashamed of — helped normalize being openly gay in public life,” The New York Times wrote in his obituary. His advocacy for gay rights and freedmen descendants brought Frank to Tulsa at different times. He arrived at Tulsa International Airport on the morning of Saturday, June 12, 1999, just in time to kick off an event-filled Pride weekend. He was the grand marshal of Tulsa’s first ever Pride parade, which closed the streets from Brookside to Veterans Park (now Dream Keepers Park) at 21st Street and Boulder Avenue that morning. And that evening he was the keynote speaker at “An Evening with Barney Frank,” a gala hosted by Tulsa Oklahomans for Equality and the Cimarron Alliance at the Greenwood Cultural Center. He flew out early Sunday morning – after a very early prayer breakfast – to attend to unexpected House business and was quite apologetic for his early departure, former TOHR President Greg Gatewood remembers. Frank told the Tulsa World for a June 13, 1999, story that “U.S. Sen. Jim Inhofe – the Oklahoma Republican who recently tried to block �the nomination of a gay ambassador to Luxembourg – helped inspire him to join Tulsa's parade. "‘In a major urban area where there has been a well-organized gay and lesbian movement for years, they don't need my help so much,’" Frank said. "But here, where the political climate isn't so good – where the U.S. senator has basically said that gay and lesbian people don't have the right to be American citizens – I want to help out all that I can." Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, which later became Oklahomans for Equality, had sponsored an annual Pride picnic for 18 years, and marches on sidewalks were included in 1997 and ’98, but the 1999 event was the first parade that involved street closings and police escorts. Frank returned to Tulsa in 2017 to lend his support and speak at an event at John Hope Franklin Reconciliation Park in celebration of an Aug. 30 ruling by a federal judge that the descendants of former slaves of the Cherokee Nation are entitled to Cherokee citizenship. Frank had worked in Congress to force the Cherokee Nation to acknowledge freedmen descendants as tribal citizens, having asked the Bureau of Indian Affairs and the Department of Housing and Urban Development in September 2011 to cut off housing funding to the Cherokee Nation if it did not restore tribal citizenship to Black Cherokees. Frank told the Bay State Banner, a Boston newspaper, that month that he became involved with the issue because “from my earliest days in politics, I’ve considered race one of the single most important problems. I think fighting racism is important.” �The Oklahomans for Equality History Project encourages you to learn more about OkEq’s history by visiting our online archives at history.okeq.org. � https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/2eee107f234bb2bbb6ce8b020512c514.png 0a5d39392b559d5868396cb18589c819 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > In Memoriam Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br /><br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Barney Frank Remembrance Subject The topic of the resource Barney Frank Remembrance Article Description An account of the resource Two pages of an article written by Mary Bishop-Baldwin about Barney Frank, who passed away on May 20th, 2026. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mary Bishop-Baldwin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 20, 2026 1999 Pride 2026 Barney Frank biography House of Representatives in memoriam Pride 1999 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/edde5cee0c87796495da8224fcd4dec0.mp4 5815341d8dca43351639e8b30a0e0535 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/2e3bbcc43ab98711e95823244ffe02e6.pdf 9bfad13b7148d2a1c9be6cc96f451db7 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with David Dees Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: April 21, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About David Dees: Summary This interview with David Dees offers a deep dive into the history of LGBTQ+ community life in Tulsa, including early club culture, personal experiences with family acceptance, and the evolution of Pride events. It provides valuable insights into the challenges and resilience of the community over decades. Join us for an in-depth interview with David Dees as he shares his experiences and insights from decades of activism, community organizing, and the history of LGBTQ+ life in Tulsa. Discover stories of community resilience, the fight against AIDS, and the importance of education and inclusion. Keywords LGBTQ+ history, Tulsa, club culture, family acceptance, Pride events, community resilience LGBTQ+ history, Tulsa, community activism, AIDS awareness, LGBTQ+ community, pride, history, activism, community organizing, LGBTQ+ rights Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 03:00 High School Years and Early Independence 06:02 First Jobs and Early Adult Life 09:01 Coming Out and Family Dynamics 11:58 Experiences in Gay Bars 15:06 Navigating Relationships and Identity 18:01 The Impact of Family Acceptance 20:59 Police Harassment and Community Challenges 2 �24:01 Reflections on Parental Relationships 38:58 Navigating Heartbreak: A Lesson in Self-Worth 43:22 Family Dynamics and Coming Out 49:52 The Power of Words: Language and Identity 52:32 The Evolution of the Gay Bar Scene 01:02:25 AIDS Awareness: The Community's Response 01:09:43 Fundraising and Support During the AIDS Crisis 01:17:21 Community Dynamics and Discrimination 01:19:14 Violence and Resilience in the LGBTQ+ Community 01:22:37 The Pulse Nightclub Memorial and Community Solidarity 01:27:27 Fundraising and Support for the LGBTQ+ Community 01:32:36 The Role of Bars in LGBTQ+ History 01:40:05 Legacy and Influence of LGBTQ+ Icons 01:43:10 Compassion and Community Responsibility 01:49:21 Messages for Future Generations David Dees Oral History Interview April 21, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Good afternoon, it's April the 21st, 2026. We are at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library, Joe here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. We have David Dees today with us a local business owner and community leader. Those present for the interviews, Amanda Thompson, archivist at the Equality Center, Mary Bishop- Baldwin, renowned journalist and petitioner in the marriage equality lawsuit and also helping here in the archives. And Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality. And our interviewer today is Toby Jenkins. All right, David, I know over the years I've heard you talk a little bit about your family, so I want to get just a little bit of background. Where were you born? David Dees: Southern Florida. Toby Jenkins: Southern Florida? Where at in Florida? David Dees: By way of Lake Okeechobee area, actually. Toby Jenkins: And what was your family, were they from Florida or did they… David Dees: Well, let's see, my mom would have been from Wisconsin, and my dad's family is all Southern Florida people. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so you were born there, and what year would that have been? David Dees: 58. Toby Jenkins: 1958, okay, and how did you end up in Oklahoma? David Dees: My dad got transferred out here when I was 14. Toby Jenkins: 14 years old, and what was his background? David Dees: He was an insurance salesman. 3 �Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so you came, you left a place with beaches and sunshine, and old people. David Dees: And old people. Toby Jenkins: And you came to a place that had four seasons, bitter cold in the winter and bitter heat in the summer. What were your thoughts about that as a 14year-old kid? David Dees: I don't even know if I can tell that story or not. I remember my grandmother crying, and I'd ask her, what's going on? And she's like, you're moving to a place where you won't have a house. You'll be in a mud shack with grass on the roof, and you won't have cars, and you'll have to ride ponies. And I remember going up to my mom, I'm like, where the hell are we moving? And my mom says, I swear I've been out there, it's not like that. And thank God it wasn't. Toby Jenkins: And it wasn't? David Dees: It wasn't. Toby Jenkins: And so you would have moved when you were 14 to Tulsa? David Dees: Mm-hmm, 72. Toby Jenkins: And what junior high did you go to? David Dees: Edison. Toby Jenkins: Edison? David Dees: Yeah, Edison was a combo junior, senior, 7 through 12. Toby Jenkins: And then you graduated from high school there. David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember any details about your high school years? David Dees: We could smoke in the smoke hole. Toby Jenkins: Smoking in the smoke hole. Oh, Lord. David Dees: You know, it was a pretty fun time. Definitely different from what school is like now, for sure. I think it's more relaxed. We could leave campus to go eat lunch. We could do a lot of stuff, drive to school. I think they do that now still. Toby Jenkins: What year did you graduate? David Dees: 76, bicentennial, baby. Toby Jenkins: Yes. And do you remember how many were in your graduating class? David Dees: Oh, Lord. 650, almost 700. Toby Jenkins: Right. 4 �David Dees: It was big. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, I think it has less than 300 now. David Dees: Wow, really? Toby Jenkins: And so that would have been right at the apex of Tulsa and Tulsa Public Schools. I think in those days it had about 84,000 students in its school system. David Dees: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: And it has a third of that now. Most probably because of private schools and urban sprawl and suburbs. David Dees: Well, I remember urban sprawl was starting to be a deal because Union was actually one of the bigger schools then, and then it became Broken Arrow, Jenks, and now even Bixby is considered really growing huge, I think. Toby Jenkins: So did you have special interests in high school? Were the things that you were involved in, other than sneaking around smoking in the smoke holes? David Dees: Smoking in the smoke holes? Toby Jenkins: Yeah. David Dees: No, no, no. All I wanted to do was to get out of school. That's all I could live for. Toby Jenkins: So when you graduated from high school in 1976, what was, kind of what was the climate in the United States at that time? What stands out in your mind and your perspective as a new high school graduate? David Dees: Seems like you made $1.75 an hour and I remember thinking, wow, if I make $600 a month, I can pay my rent, my car payment, my utilities, and eat. Toby Jenkins: And did you go directly from high school into the workforce? David Dees: Absolutely. I was working before I was out of high school. First job I had when I got here was I picked up a paper route with the Tulsa Tribune, six days with the Tulsa Tribune, and threw the Sunday World. And that's how I bought my first car, my first motorcycle. Toby Jenkins: What motorcycle? David Dees: A Honda SL125 dirt bike. Toby Jenkins: Mine was a Kawasaki. David Dees: Remember, they used to have the strip pits over at Yale and, oh gosh, North Yale. What is that out where the airport is? There's Pine and then Apache, Yale and Apache. I used to ride those strip pits all the time out there as a kid. Toby Jenkins: They're still there. They're still riding. David Dees: Still burning too, I think. 5 �Toby Jenkins: They're still riding motorcycles out there too, Sunday afternoons. So, your first car? David Dees: Oh, Lord, do I have to say that? 1976 Ford Pinto Station. A green one. Toby Jenkins: I'm more embarrassed than that. I had a 1976 Gremlin that was orange. David Dees: Oh, dear God. At least it wasn't that horrible gold. I remember that. I'm like, those hubcaps are horrible. Toby Jenkins: Now, was yours a hatchback or a station wagon? David Dees: Mine was a station wagon. Toby Jenkins: Oh, okay. David Dees: You know, hey, I was cool. I think it had the wood grain down it too. Toby Jenkins: So, what was your first job after high school? David Dees: Oh, Lord, that'd have to have been Fur’s Cafeteria at the Farm. Toby Jenkins: What did you do at Fur’s Cafeteria? David Dees: You do not want to know. So, I started out in the dish room, then wound up on the serving line of all things, and then wound up as a dining room supervisor out there. That was crazy. Toby Jenkins: And so, were you on your own? I mean, had you already moved out of the house? David Dees: The day I graduated, I broke my mom's heart. I'm up early and she's like, where are you going? I said, I've been telling you for a year that I graduated, I'm out of here. Toby Jenkins: Okay. David Dees: She didn't think I was serious. Toby Jenkins: Was it just because you wanted independence or did you feel some kind of... David Dees: I think it's a combination of things, honestly. I think I was figuring out that there was something different about me. You know, I already knew because back then, you would have to go sneak to QuikTrip or get a little Playboy magazine or something, you know? So, yeah, I knew there was something different about me. Oh, yeah, that's right. Holy crap. I was kind of a young kid sneaking out, going into the bars. Yikes. I've forgotten about that because I was 15, I guess. Toby Jenkins: Wow. You were already about 15. How do you identify? David Dees: Gay man. Toby Jenkins: Gay man. Ok. So, even at that age, you already had figured out you were different? 6 �David Dees: I knew at 12 I was. Probably, you know, it's real funny because looking back for years, I remember being in... What would I have been in? 3rd or 4th grade and I had a teacher, you know, a male teacher that I always remember was a striking, good-looking man and every time he walked by, I'm like, mmm, English Leather Lime. So, you know, maybe that was the beginning that there was something different about me back then. But I didn't know what it was, you know what I'm saying? Dennis Neill: That was my cologne, too. Toby Jenkins: I was Jovan Musk. David Dees: You know, I may have worn that, too. Aramis and all of those. Toby Jenkins: Alright. So, do you feel like you wanted to be out of the house because you knew you were gay or just you wanted the independence as a young adult? David Dees: A, B, C, D, E, F, G. Wanted to come and go as you... Absolutely all of it. Absolutely all of it. You know, part of my life, there was no business that was going on, you know. I'll never forget my mom even coming into my house one time. It was right after I'd moved out. You know, of course, we may have smoked a little weed back then and we may have had cute little bongs and nobody knew what they were. And I remember my mom had come into my house and I'd walk by my table and I'm like, whoa…And she has taken my bong that was like a little Roman girl holding a flower basket and had put flowers in it and then told me how dirty the water was in it. So yeah, there was a lot of reasons when I left home. Toby Jenkins: Where was your first place, if it was your place? David Dees: Oh my god, it was a trailer park and it's still there at Admiral and Yale. Toby Jenkins: Admiral and Yale. David Dees: Behind the K-Mart. Well, it used to be the K-Mart, McElroy now. Toby Jenkins: By the post office? David Dees: Yeah, well, it used to be tiny, tiny and then they made it for big trailers. I mean, there were twice the trailers in there when I lived in there. Toby Jenkins: Did you have a roommate? David Dees: Nope, no. Toby Jenkins: You were working at Fur’s Cafeteria. David Dees: Yep, well, yeah, by then I'd gone on to do something else. I don't even remember what I was doing then. I think I was working downtown somewhere. Toby Jenkins: Now, you mentioned that you could go into the convenience stores and you could buy magazines. David Dees: Your adult magazines. 7 �Toby Jenkins: Yep, you could buy them in there. David Dees: Absolutely. Blue Boy, Playgirl. Seemed like they actually even carried a few that were geared toward gay men. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, well, Blue Boy. David Dees: Blue Boy was definitely, but there was another one. I can't remember what they were, but of course, I remember going to the clerk. I'm getting this for my mom. Oh yeah, but your mom wants to look at Blue Boy. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so you talked about, you hinted at that you were already aware of gay bars and that you were trying to sneak into those. David Dees: Oh Lord, that's right. That is, okay, I do remember how I found my first gay bar. I was, Lord have mercy. This is when I worked at Fur’s and I was dating a girl who dumped me to go with a flaming gay man, of all things. Toby Jenkins: You were just too butch. David Dees: I don't know what it was, but then I remember one night hearing them talk about how, you know, we're gonna go by the gay bar and yell at the queers and the fags and I'm like, oh, cool, you know? And so I go with them and then of course, I'm like, oh, so here's the Friends Lounge at 3rd and Utica, cool. Okay, guys, I need to go home. I don't feel good. My stomach's bothering me. 45 minutes later, I'm back down there sitting in my car on the parking lot. Toby Jenkins: And it was, tell us a little bit about the Friends. That would have been your first gay bar? David Dees: I didn't go into it. I was scared to death, but I mean, I sat, many nights, I sat outside that thing and just watched, watched, watched from a parking lot. The first bar that I ever went into was the Old Queen of Hearts downtown. And that was on, what, like 9th to 10th on Main, but on the east side of the road. It's a parking lot now. Toby Jenkins: On the Fruit Loop? David Dees: Yes, on the Fruit Loop, absolutely. And that was also one that I sat outside forever and I remember, oh, Lord, this is a traumatic experience. I'm sitting in my car and there was this guy that had been, I guess, watching me several weeks just sitting in the car. You know how you do, sit down, look over the door, you know, that far over the glass. And he finally taps on my window. He's like, what are you doing? I said, I'm just sitting here watching. He goes, well, why don't you go in with everybody? And I was like, man, I can't go in there. What if somebody knows me? You know, and of course he's like, well, what the hell do you think they're in there for? I'm like, oh yeah, cool idea. So I go in there. I finally get the courage about 30 minutes later going to this bar and I walk in there and they had a quiet bar in front and then in the back was the disco area. And I remember walking in there and it was so dark, you know, you can't see anything. So you're just kind of stumbling through, making your way through. And she's going to appreciate this story because I'm going to name this lady's name and you'll know her. 8 �So I walk into this thing and then I go through the double doors of the disco. There's a strobe going on. I'm like, holy crap, I can't see anything. And all I remember hearing is a girl scream. Oh my God, that guy that just walked in. I went to high school with him. So I turn around and I run and this little flamboyant cocktail waiter had come in behind me and had his tray with the glasses up like that. And I mean, bam, I hit him so hard. Glassware flew everywhere, knocked him on the ground and I stomped him just going out the door, like running out the door, man. I mean, I'm shoving people out of the way. I'm in the middle of Main Street, almost to the church parking lot across the street because it was right across from the Christian church. And I am almost to where my car's parked and I feel somebody jump on my back and I go down into the street face first and I'm like, don't hurt me, don't hurt me, don't hurt me. And it's this girl going, David Dees, David Dees, I'm Patty Murray and we went to high school together. Sure enough, her and I used to sit in a smoke hole and smoke all the time. Toby Jenkins: Well, we've heard about the legendary Patty because she eventually worked the door at Zippers. David Dees: Yes, and then Dr. Beal's office. She was, you know, in Dr. Beal's office for years when the AIDS epidemic first came on. Or is it crisis, I guess? Both. Toby Jenkins: So, someone you knew from high school clocked you and then dragged you back in. I did go back in. And did you apologize to the waiter? David Dees: I did not apologize to that waiter. I was praying nobody would even remember me. Toby Jenkins: And so you went in and what was that experience once you got in there and it was somebody you knew who helped you? David Dees: You know, I remember the first song I remember hearing, believe it or not, Strawberry Letter 23. That old disco tune. And I'll probably never forget that song because that was the first thing playing in there. And I just remember like, this is pretty cool, you know. Basic room, it wasn't really much of anything. It was just a bunch of people dancing. And I loved the music. Toby Jenkins: Big crowd, small crowd? David Dees: For what I remember, you know, it was probably a pretty decent, it was a full room of people. I don't remember how big the room was at the time, but I believe that was actually, might have been one of the bars that Tim Turner was involved in originally before he went to the Old Plantation and some of the others that he did out, you know, around town. Toby Jenkins: And this was Queen of Hearts, if I'm following? David Dees: Correct. And it went by another name too, but Queen of Hearts was the first name that I remember it being as. And then up the road you had the Zebra Lounge and the Taj Mahal around the corner, which I just noticed they tore all of that down to redevelop that whole block now, where Bank of America built, the branches. 9 �Toby Jenkins: The Holiday Innmis across from the big tall building there. Toby Jenkins: So this would have been in the late 70s, would have been 77? David Dees: No, mid-70s. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So this was before you'd even graduated from high school, right? David Dees: Maybe, I'll let you take it. Toby Jenkins: Okay, very good. Because this was somebody you knew from high school. Yes, yes. David Dees: Yeah, right after high school. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so were you still working at Fur’s Cafeteria during this time? David Dees: Probably so, actually. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So for many of our viewers, they'll know you as a business owner and a club owner and a DJ and all of that. Tell us a little bit about your early adult life and your, I mean, I'm wanting to jump to how I know you through the clubs, but I'm sure there were some career changes and maybe some relationships. David Dees: Yeah, I was going into Zippers underage. Well, I'd met John Willis at the Old Plantation, which was at 51st and Yale. It had been a bar called Bojangles, and then Tim Turner took it and turned it into a gay club. And that's where I met John Willis. John Willis was, at the time, still married but coming out and in the process of getting ready to divorce. And he did some of their sound system and stuff. So, Lord, I'm trying to think. And then after the Plantation, it was shortly after, I think the Plantation lasted a couple years before it caught fire and burned. And then about that time, George Kravis had done, let's see, I'm trying to remember, I think it was Casablanca first, at 33rd and Yale. And it was supposed to be like a little gambling casino that had slot machines and card games and stuff. And it was geared towards the upper-scale clientele. And then, of course, it got raided by the state, shut down, and then reopened for about six months as Sweetwater Station. And Sweetwater Station was straight, but gay-tolerant. I mean, you went in there, you could dance with another guy, and nobody said anything, you just didn't, yeah, you didn't make it… Toby Jenkins: This would have been what year? David Dees: 77, 76, probably, somewhere around that. Toby Jenkins: David, we were talking a little bit about some of the early gay clubs, and this would have been in the mid-'70s, late-'70s, and you would have still been just a young man, possibly sneaking into these clubs, because you may have been underage. During this time, if I remember correctly, all clubs were private clubs, and you had to have a membership to be present, and you had to bring your own liquor, didn't you? Were they? 10 �David Dees: That's how you're supposed to, yes. The way it worked was you had a membership to the club, they'd say, what's your name? You gave them your name, what's your liquor? Crown Royal. So, what they would do was, when they bought Crown Royal, they put your name on the bottle, so everybody's, every bottle up there had a name, but you'd walk up to the bar and you ordered what you want, bourbon and coke, Jack and, you know. Toby Jenkins: So, the experience was similar to what it was, but this was how we got around and said we didn't have liquor by the drink in Oklahoma. David Dees: Correct, correct. Now, yes, very similar to today, but very different from today, because of the police harassment back when Chief Jack Purdy was in, in office, the TPD, they would come through the bars, you know, to check compliance. I remember they would walk through Zippers, and they carried these batons, metal batons, and they'd knock ceiling towels out of the ceiling, like looking for drugs, walk by. I remember one night, they walked by the water fountain that sat between the men's and women's restroom and knocked it over, looking for drugs. They were destructive. They'd knock tables over walking through the bar. It was crazy, it was the craziest stuff you ever saw. Back when the bars were downtown, jaywalking tickets all the time for crossing the street in the middle of the street. Toby Jenkins: They would sit parked outside. David Dees: Oh, absolutely, outside of the gay bar, well, outside the Queen of Hearts at 10th and Main, John Smith, you know, got a ticket for jaywalking. So, they made a point to put your name in the paper, you know, where you were jaywalking and where you were jaywalking at. You know, and of course, it was only at the bars, the gay bars downtown. It wasn't like they were doing it over at, you know, the Mayo Hotel. Toby Jenkins: So, you were working your day job, and you were living independent as a young adult, had your own place. Relationship with your family was still warm and friendly? David Dees: You know, that's kind of a weird thing, too. My family did find out right after I had moved out from home, my brother accidentally outed me because, you know, my brother was one of these kids that I'm, you know, go up to my mom and say, hey, can I borrow the car, where are you going? Well, I'm gonna drive by the gay bar and yell the queers in the bags, you know, and my mom'd be, boys will be boys. So, of course, he's doing that one night, and like I said, I mean, you got used to being chased in the bar by people that wanted to hurt you or do something to you. I mean, I'd had people chase me once with a tire chain from 35th and Winston, running in, get in the parking lot. High school kids usually is what it was, or other high school kids or young adults. Tire chain once, a tire iron that you used to loosen your lug nuts with. That sort of thing. So I remember, it was on a Sunday, because I was going in for the beer bust, and I'm walking in the front door, and just as I pulled the door open, I heard, queer faggot, and I turned around, I don't know what it was, it was just that night, it just hit me, and I'm like, I'll fucking kill you. I'll turn around, I'll go after somebody tonight. You've just caught me right in the right mood. And I bowed up and turned around, I was getting ready to go, and I'm like, oh shit, that's my brother. 11 �And it's my brother driving by 33rd Street towards the Get and Go [convenience store] in my mom's Pontiac. She had this Catalina, so it was a whale of a car. And he's driving by, and he's like, like that, and I'm like, oh shit. And I just went on in, and about that time, I heard chomp, and he jumped the curb, and had grazed the parking lot light at the Get and Go at my mom's car. And I look at it, and I'm like, shit, he's fine. I just went on in the bar, I wasn't gonna deal with it. My younger brother, he's six years younger than me. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so he saw that, and then he told your family. David Dees: Oh yeah, of course, he went home. My mom's like, what happened to my car? Well, I was driving by the queer bar, yelling at the queers, and I saw David going in. And of course, my mom's like, well, why would David be going into a gay bar? And my brother immediately tells mom, well, maybe he likes the music, you know? And so nothing's said for probably about three or four months, okay? And then I remember one night, my mom walked up to me, and she's like, I wanna ask you a question. I'm like, okay. And she's like, are you gay? And I just went flush. I mean, I'm like, shit. And I looked at her, and very tactfully, I said, mom, I want you to think about the question you're asking. And if in your heart, you don't wanna know the answer, don't ask the question, because I've never lied to you, and I'm not gonna lie to you. So she's like, are you gay? Mom, again, I'm gonna tell you, if you don't wanna know the answer to this, don't ask the question. And so she asked me a third time, and I'm like, okay, yeah, I am. And then, of course, immediately, she kind of went into the spiel, like it goes against everything I know. It goes against what religion has taught me. And God, it was such a detailed conversation. I mean, she's really calm about it, but she's like, I don't understand it, and I worry about what kind of life will you have? Will people be mean to you because of it? What if somebody hurts you? She just had all these questions and these fears. And I said, mom, I assure you, I'm comfortable with who I am. I've navigated this water for a while, and I'm okay. Don't worry about what kind of life I'll have, or if I'm happy, or if anything, because I'm okay. And I said, I'm smart enough to know how to protect myself. I know where I'm safe. I know where I'm not safe. I'll be fine. And then her final question, and I made her cry on this, because she stopped and she looked at me and she goes, so, and she was dead serious too. So, when you go out at night, do you put on a pink dress and pink high heels? And I looked at her and I said, where in the fuck did you come up with that? I said, that's the stupidest shit anybody has ever said to me. Where did you come up with that? Then of course, immediately she burst into tears, because it took me a minute to realize that's just all she knew. It's what she had been told, or what she'd been taught, or what she knew about it. So, she wanted to learn, you know, and she told me, she said, I don't understand it, I don't like it, you know, and I'm worried that, you know, you might not get into heaven or something like that. You know, and I said, mom, I'll be honest with you. I said, you know, I've got my relationship with my higher power, and I said, I'm sure when my day comes, we'll sit at a table, we'll have a discussion. I said, I'm sure I'm gonna get passed on through, so, you know, don't worry about that. And. Toby Jenkins: Was your relationship strained after that, or… 12 �David Dees: Not with her, but it was like a couple of months later, you know, I'd gone over to the house, and, you know, I'd go over and help my dad tinker on carburetors on the car, stuff like that. We'd work on a lawnmower, work on my motorcycle, something. And I'd gone over there one Saturday morning, it was a couple months after my mom had found out, and my dad was odd, I mean, I'm just like, hmm. You know, he's got a burr up him, but I don't know what it is. And so we were going to an auto parts store to get a part, and I remember, we're sitting in the car, and we're going north on Sheridan, I think Guy Hinshaw's had a store at Admiral and Memorial or something at one time, years ago. And so that's really dating me, I know. So we're going to this thing, and I remember, my dad's not saying anything, he's just staring straight ahead, and I look over, and the first thing I'm seeing is, I'm like, and his knuckles, he's had the steering wheel so tight, his knuckles were white. And I'm like, okay, this isn't good. And I didn't say anything, and we're sitting there, and we almost get to where we're going, and out of the blue, and I mean, man, I don't think I'll ever forget the tone of his voice, because it absolutely set the relationship that I had with him after that. He was just like, and staring straight ahead, so tell me about this fag shit. And I remember thinking, uh-oh. And I was like, we're only going 35 mile an hour, if I open the door and I roll, how they taught you in school, tuck, drop, and roll, I won't get hurt that bad. And then, again, I don't know what came over me, I thought, you know what, screw this, I'm just not gonna deal with it. And I just looked at him and said, what the hell do you wanna know about it? And then, oh God, that set him off. He's like, you're not my kid, I regret the day you were born, never wanted to see you again, don't fucking ever come to my house again, I mean, just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and I'm like, okay, and I got back, we got back to the house, and I got on my bike and I left. Well, it was about a couple of weeks later, my mom calls me up, and she's like, where have you been, you haven't been over here the last few weeks, where have you been? And I said, well, here's the deal, Mom, you know, if we wanna hang out or you wanna see me, you need to either come to my house or we'll go somewhere. I said, because Dad's made it very clear that he doesn't ever wanna see me again, I'm not welcome in his house. And my mom paused for a second and she said, I'm having dinner, dinner will be ready at 7.30, be at the front door, and I said, no, you don't understand. You know, Dad's told me not to come back to the house, I'm not coming back to the house. And she repeated herself again, she said, dinner will be on the table at 7:30, be at the door, and I'm, yes, ma'am. So I did, I showed up at the house, knocked on the door, and she came, and we lived at this house at 35th and Joplin, so it sits up on a hill, has a long sidewalk to it. And I walked up to that thing, walk up to the door, knocked on the door, and she opened the door, and she goes, oh, hold on just a second. And she went and she pushed the door closed, but then it came back open about that far. And so I'm standing there at the door, and God dang, and now this is what solidified my relationship with my mother, okay? I mean, my dad already did what he did that, you know, set the tone for future things with him. But my mom, you know, you gotta 13 �remember too, my mom was June Cleaver from Leave It to Beaver. You know, hair in place, white pearls, always a pretty tote and fetch housewife. Honey, I'm home, get me my beer. Okay, dear, here's the paper. I mean, she just, that was my mom. She was just a product of that era, you know? So I never heard her raise her voice to my dad. She never nothing. And the only way I know to describe this is probably pure, raw anger, maybe a little bit of hatred, I don't know it was. It was just so raw. But I heard her scream at my dad. At the top of her voice she's like: this is half my house, he's my son and as long as I live here he'll always be welcome here. And I turned, I walked off, I was, I was like hell, no, I ain't going in there. And I just walked down the sidewalk. It spooked the shit out of me and I'm going down, I'm getting in my car, I'm almost at my car in the street, getting in my car and my mom, holler, she said: where are you going? And I just stopped. And I did. I just didn't know what to do. I absolutely did not know what to do and I just kind of looked at her and there she goes, I'm fixing to put dinner on the table, come on. And I stood there for a second. She said. I said, come on. I said yes, ma'am, you know. And I walked up the stairs and went into the door and, man, I didn't know what I was gonna see. Honestly, it was like I think, maybe I felt like I was gonna see the silence of the land, slaughter or something. I just don't know what I thought and I walked into the table- my dad's sitting at the table, my brother and my sister is sitting at the table and of course my mom's got her apron on and she goes, have a seat, I'm fixing to serve dinner and nobody looked up. Everybody was just looking down at the table. I mean that's the most uncomfortable dinner I've ever had in my life, but you know, it was, it was really weird. After that, with my dad, it was over. My dad tried to pretend that it just never happened. Okay, the stuff, the stuff that he said you just you never forget. I mean, you know. But it taught me a very powerful lesson: you never say anything in anger, because once you've spoken words, you can't take them back. And I never forgot anything that he said. You know I'll never forget him saying: I regret the day you were born. You know, I wish I'd never had you. You're not my child. I mean that ride home, I mean it was just like duck, I'm just a boom, boom, boom. And I just sat there, you know, and just you know. And I finally told him: dude, I remember telling. I said you know what, dad, you have the right to feel the way you feel, and I understand it and I respect that and if that's how you feel, so be it. You know it is what it is, you know, and that was the last thing I really said to him, you know. And then of course, the deal happened, you know, with my mom doing what she did that night. So my mom honestly, truly taught me what the definition of unconditional love is: absolutely 100% compassion, unconditional love, all of it. You know. Now my dad, on the other hand, just tried to pretend like it had never happened. And you know it, it never…. I don’t know, maybe I made peace with it. I don't know that I ever made peace with him. I just never brought it up with it again. But my relationship with him was never the same. Now, in his final years, when he did get finally and really super poor health- and I knew it was to the point that my mom just could no longer deal with it- I did move back to where they were living to help her with him, you know. 14 �And then, of course, he lived about two weeks afterwards his health had deteriorated pretty bad and he would be like, you know, I wish you'd move out here, I wish you'd come out here and I just, you know, I never, I was never gonna be a dick to him or disrespectful to him, but I just, absolutely I think…I don't know if I was just hurt or if I had just lost respect for the man, in all honesty. Toby Jenkins: That was powerful. Very painful for you to talk about it, but now, you probably over the years, you have interacted with people who have… David Dees: It absolutely shaped me. It reminds me of something that happened at Majestic. Golly, I bet we hadn't been open three or four years. And I remember this kid come, and I call him kid, I don't mean it to be insulting, but I mean, to me, especially being almost 70, I mean, an 18, 19, 20 year old is a kid to me, you know? And I remember this little boy came running up to me and he said, he goes, David, one of my friends is crying, you know, on the porch, something's happened. Can you go help him? And I'm like, oh God, you know? Cause I didn't, at that point, I didn't know what happened. Somebody beat this kid up, somebody do something to him, what's happened? So, you know, I came down the stairs, you know, and this kid's following me. The next thing you know, there's a couple of kids, you know, boys and girls following me. And I, as I get to the front door, I hear this kid sobbing. And I mean, the minute I heard the sob, I'm like, okay, this is a broken heart cry. I mean, I knew what it was, you know? So, I walk out here and it's this young boy, and I bet he's probably 19 or 20. I know he wasn't drinking age, he couldn't have been drinking age. And he's sitting on that park bench we had at the front door and he's just crying. And I'm like, okay, buddy, tell me what's going on that is so terrible that you sound like you've lost your best friend. I said, what's going on? You know, and he's like, my... b-boyf-... boyfriend just broke up with me. And of course, he's blowing snot bubbles and everything, you know? And I just chuckle, I'm like, oh God, your first love. Okay, it makes sense, you know? And so, you know, I just kind of looked at him and I said, okay, tell me a little bit about what's going on here. You know, how long have you known this guy? Th-... three months. I'm like, okay, how long y'all been, how long y'all been together again? Th-th-th-th-th-three months. I'm like, okay, and you're how old? N-n-nineteen, I think he said he was nineteen, because I remember saying, okay, to make that math easy for me, let's just say you're 20. So let's see, if you're 10 years old, that's 3,600 days. So if you're 20 years old, that's 7,200 days, you know, that you've lived life. You know, of course, this kid's just kind of looking at me. And I said, so what happened? He was like, he c-c-c-ccheated on me. And I said, okay, is it the first time? Th-... three times. And I said, so you've been together 90 days out of the 7,200 days you've been alive. You've been with somebody 90 days, and he's cheated on you three times in 90 days out of the 7,000 days you've been alive. Yes. And I said, I just looked at him, I said, do you think you deserve that? You know, is that what you think you deserve? And he's like, no. And I said, you know, I wish I could tell you that in a perfect world, this never happens, I said. But the reality is, you're probably gonna go on to love multiple people, and you're probably going to, I hope it doesn't happen, but you're 15 �probably going to go through several relationship breakups. I mean, it's gonna happen. I said, I'm glad you found out in 90 days out of the 7,000 days you've been alive, rather than go through a long time with somebody to find out that they've been doing things like this to you for a long time. I said, the reality is, you're gonna be okay. You know, pick yourself up. You've got friends in here. They're scared to death, they're worried about you. And of course, a couple people are peeking around that wall looking, you know. And I said, you know, they're worried about you. You'll be fine, you know. You're gonna go on, things will happen, you'll be fine. I promise you, you'll be fine. You know, blow your nose, go back inside, and have fun with your friends, I said. But most importantly, know what you are worth. And know that, you know what, if somebody that you've known in that short a period of time can admit that kind of feeling and make you feel that horrible, go, know what you're worth, because you're worth more than that. Toby Jenkins: Wow, powerful. David Dees: Majestic to me has always kind of been like a little ministry, because I mean, and I've described it as that. That's exactly what it was to me. Toby Jenkins: Absolutely. David Dees: And maybe that's been the key to its longevity. Toby Jenkins: So, all of this is very good insight into what our community's like. You mentioned that your brother would call you these names and you were going to these gay bars. David Dees: There's an interesting story on that. My brother was so horrified by what, because he never intended that to happen. He just honestly answered a question to my mother, you know. And then, of course, shortly after that, he moved to Dallas and it was, let's see, my dad died in 84 that my mom was killed in a car wreck a year later. My dad died at Thanksgiving of 84. My mom got killed at Christmas of 85 and let's see. So Jim graduated- well, he was graduated from college when my mom got killed because she was going to his college graduation. I should have been in the car with her. I had gone to a Christmas party the night before and was hungover and didn't make it. So he, once he graduates, he goes to Dallas. So I guess it was seven, seven or eight years later he called me. He's like: I'm coming to town, let's hang, let's hang out. And I said, well, you know, I'm going out with some friends Friday night. You know, if you want to, you you can go with me. I'm going to Zippers. Yes, because it's before Zippers is closed. So I guess it's several years later, actually a couple years later, because Zippers closed, I think in 88, somewhere around there- and Jim was like: okay, and I told him I'm like: don't be an ass if you, if you're going, if, because you know I was, I was in a long-term relationship during that period from 76 to about 83 or 4, you know, and Jim knew about it. He always kind of made jokes about like where's your wife, or you know where's the other woman had, or the little woman, or so you know, he just made comments like that. And so I said something to him about, don't be an ass. You know, I'm gonna be out with some friends. If you want to come hang out- you truly want to hang out, like you 16 �say you do- then let's go. So we're in Zippers and it was busy- and we're standing by the dance floor. You know that long dance floor. So we're between the restroom and the dance floor staring at the DJ booth and a guy walked by and Jim goes- he's cute, and I bit my tongue because I'm like man, I'm gonna knock the hell out of you, because I thought I wasn't sure if he's mocking me or or just being an ass or what you know, and I don't say anything. And then, probably about another 15 or 20 minutes he's like he's hot, and again I'm just, I'm holding my composure, and then all of a sudden he just takes off and I'm like good, I don't have to deal with you. And about 30 minutes later he shows back up. He's like, I got his phone number and I went, whoa, whoa, whoa, dude, what the hell's going on here? I am confused. I'm like, have you switched teams or what? You batting with us? Yes, yeah. And so I looked at him. I said: you know, are you, are you jacking with me, are you serious? He goes: no, I'm serious, and I said so, when did this happen? And he said, he said he always knew, which is why he was driving by Zippers when he saw me going in. But he said my dad's reaction was so adverse that he was afraid to come out and that's why he snuck off and went to Dallas and had been out living in Dallas. Toby Jenkins: So your mother would have died. David Dees: They never knew. Toby Jenkins: So your parents… David Dees: My parents never knew about him. Now I remember my dad, you know, which goes back to the story. My dad would try- well, you know. Well, let's, I'm gonna work on the lawnmower today. Why don't you come by? And I just at this point wanted nothing to do with him. I mean, you know, I was like I already know who you are. I'll probably never forgive you for all of that. And I remember…One day, you know he said something he's like: well, you know you, just you don't come over, you don't hang out anymore. And I, I just lost it on him and I remember looking, I said you know what you, you and I, our dates are done, I'm done, I'm out of here. You know I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not your buddy, your pal anymore. I said: but I tell you what, you want to play daddy to somebody. You've got a kid in there, a young, a young son in there. I suggest you be a man, you play daddy to him, you know, and that's. I walked off from my dad. That was probably really one of the last few things I really said to my dad a lot as far as anything else. I would acknowledge him. I'd say hi, but that was really the last really hard conversation. And he did, he stepped up to the bat for my brother, you know, and became a good dad to my brother. But my brother was so horrified by what had happened that he was afraid to come out. Toby Jenkins: So I wanted to ask you, you have the recollection of them calling us queer and faggot and saying horrible things. Some of the stuff your dad said. What are your feelings about, we've asked this in interviews, how we use phrases today that are painful to us of a certain age, but yet people want us to use those phrases to identify our community? David Dees: I don't like the words, and for the most part, I won't use the words. 17 �Toby Jenkins: The words? David Dees: Fag, queer, you know, sissy, just a lot of them. That being said, I have learned to respect the fact that maybe you will use it, or you don't like to use it. And that's probably an age thing, like I said, I've gotten to the point where I respect the fact that I don't have to like it, I don't have to agree with it, but that's your choice to do. It's not being used out of malice. So I guess it's just a word. It's only got the power that you give it. I mean, let a non-alphabet soup person use the word. I wouldn't say let a non-gay person, but I mean, trans people I think could say it. They're entitled to use it, gay people, lesbian. There's a lot of the definitions maybe that I don't really quite understand because they didn't exist when I was growing up. But if you're in any part of the community, then I feel like it's your choice if you want to use it and you're okay with it, because maybe it does mean something different to you than it does to me. Toby Jenkins: Is it painful to you if somebody calls you queer? David Dees: I don't like it. Toby Jenkins: Does it bring back some of those emotions where you experienced verbal harassment? David Dees: Oh, it'll piss me off. Because to me, it's a derogatory thing. I mean, I depict it like I said, the N-word. I mean, it can be a very powerful derogatory term. And again, I grew up in that era. I remember even for black people, I remember what it was like for them. I saw it firsthand. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so we have you as a young adult. We've talked a little bit about this, and I just want to…when did you make the transition when you began to work for the clubs? And that became... David Dees: Early 20s. I was in my early 20s. Toby Jenkins: And so it has been a lifetime career, right? David Dees: Pretty much, yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so that would have... Tell me about your first job in a gay bar or a club. David Dees: That would have been in Zippers. Yeah, it would have been in Zippers. Toby Jenkins: Really? David Dees: Yeah, absolutely. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been what year? David Dees: 84, 85. Toby Jenkins: Work you a bartender or… David Dees: Really technical-minded. I mean, I loved electronics, all this stuff. So I learned the lighting system. I could go in and rebuild those lighting controllers and 18 �those drivers. Back then, everything was all mechanical parts, transistors, Triax, just different electrical parts. So something crapped out, you had to chase it down, troubleshoot it down, solder it back, rebuild it. When the lighting fixtures died, changed transformers in them, I just learned how to... The electrical end of it, and knew it, like the back of my hand was very good at it, picked up on it real quick. John Willis was a genius, and he was just a big old geeky nerd. I mean, he was a nerd, and a hi-fi nerd. He went on to own the Gramophone back in the day, which was a big major high-end hi-fi shop. The sound that was in that club, there's a really storied history on that club. I mean, when Kravis had that built, Richard Long and Associates out of New York, designed and built it. The cabinets were custom made for that room. Toby Jenkins: What club? David Dees: Zippers. Toby Jenkins: Kravis had..George Kravis? Dennis Neill: Yeah, and wasn't it the same team that did Studio 54 in New York? David Dees: Yes, yes. Sound Garage, was it Sound Garage? Or what was the name of that? Something Garage, [Paradise Garage] but yes, the Palladium. Yes, that was the company that built the sound systems for these big clubs. And as a matter of fact, was it, there's a hi-fi magazine, a nationwide hi-fi magazine at the time, that did an article about Zippers, talking about how Richard Long and Associates out of New York had designed this sound system and how it was the most powerful sound system west of the Mississippi. Dennis Neill: That's one reason I'm wearing hearing aids. David Dees: Oh, it was an incredible, you know, for a long time, I actually had part of that sound system too. I still have the lighting controllers that came out of that room. Toby Jenkins: So, you were the lighting and sound tech, or were you the DJ? David Dees: Yes, lighting and sound tech. I didn't learn to DJ until 88, 89, when Jeff Lunsford had turned that bar into Sterling's after John closed Zippers. Toby Jenkins: Real quickly, Crash Landing did you ever DJ at Crash Landing? David Dees: No, Crash Landing was over about, oh Lord, Lewis. So, 3rd and Lewis's Warehouse Market, there's a cul-de-sac about 4th and Lewis. So, Crash Landing was on the north side of the cul-de-sac, the church was on the south side. Toby Jenkins: Okay. David Dees: But no, Crash Landing was a competitor to Zippers. Toby Jenkins: Okay, would have been open about the same time. David Dees: Yes, I think Crash Landing maybe only lasted what, a year, two years, maybe. It wasn't a very long-lived club. 19 �Toby Jenkins: This was, you say, around 1984? David Dees: 85, 86, somewhere around there. Toby Jenkins: You would have been 22, by then 23, something like that. David Dees: Oh, I gotta do the math. So, 58, yes, yes, I would have been in my mid20s. Toby Jenkins: So, your first job working, that was your full-time job, what you did. David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And you mentioned you were in a relationship. So, you would have been upfront and personal to see what was happening in the community. David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember this organization, which in those days… David Dees: Yes, that's what I was fixing to say. It was TOHR that had the helpline back in John Willis' office. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, which was at Zippers? David Dees: Correct. John had a line back in his office, and it only operated a few hours, on Friday and Saturday night, like seven to nine or something like that. But it was a phone number that you could call. They would tell you where the bars were at, where there were resources for us, if you needed help. I mean, it was literally the lifeline, the beginning of a lifeline for the community. Toby Jenkins: And so, you were aware that there were other people beginning to organize to address… Speaker 3: Yes. Well, and it seems like, when did we do the first Pride at Mohawk Park? I could swear that that went on back, maybe in the late 70s, but I can't remember if it was late 70s or early 80s, because, okay, the first Pride I remember at Mohawk Park, Zippers had a part in it. I think the Toolbox had a part in it. Was it Toolbox, or was it Tracy's New Edition back then, even? Toby Jenkins: And these would have just been picnics in the park? David Dees: Yes, yeah, yeah. And Coors came out and would have the beer tent. They would supply the beer for us. So, the bar owners would buy hamburgers, hot dogs, and supply the fixings. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and then the organization took over the Pride events in 1882. Dennis Neill: Actually, the organization did the first Pride in Chandler Park in 1982, yeah. And we did a few, but then, you're correct, then it morphed into more of the bars taking over Pride for a number of years. David Dees: Well, now this, we were doing this, I think, since like in the 70s, I remember this. 20 �Toby Jenkins: This is important. I've had individuals talk about there were some picnics before the organization had to take it over. David Dees: Yes, yes. Toby Jenkins: Now, it would be helpful if eventually we can get enough people to give us the details. David Dees: Well, you know what? I do think, after TOHR, because like I said, TOHR didn't exist in the beginning, and then they did exist with Zippers. So, TOHR may have taken over Pride later on. But yes, the first couple ones that I remember were in Mohawk Park, and way at the very back of the park. I think that area's even closed down now. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. I feel like it's real important that while some of you guys are still alive, we need to find somebody who has some documentation. David Dees: Tim Turner should have some information. Toby Jenkins: I keep hearing that there were some Pride picnics, and I know when this organization had, because they've got the receipts to prove it when they had to take over. And it developed, because I know, I saw the records from 1982 where they estimated they had about 400 at Chandler Park. David Dees: Yes. There's a lot of people. Toby Jenkins: So, okay. So, there was that. And this organization, and Dennis and his collaborators felt like they needed to organize to take care of the community. David Dees: Before TOHR, did it have a different name, or was it TOHR, then it became OHR? Dennis Neill: Other way around. David Dees: It was OHR, and then you did a branch of TOHR. Dennis Neill: Correct. David Dees: Okay, all right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So, about this same period, David, how many gay bars and clubs were there in Tulsa? David Dees: Oh, Lord. Toby Jenkins: Let's say about 1984. David Dees: I'm gonna say 12. Toby Jenkins: Okay. David Dees: Probably, because they were scattered all over town. Toby Jenkins: Were places like Zippers, were those gender inclusive? Were there men and women in there together, lesbian couples, male couples? 21 �David Dees: You know, Zippers was. Toby Jenkins: Okay, was there… David Dees: While it was, I'm gonna say it was probably a third women and two thirds men, but Zippers was very… Toby Jenkins: And you would have had drag queen entertainment? David Dees: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: Okay. David Dees: As a matter of fact, there's an interesting story about that. We had a drag queen in the 80s. It was back when Safeway stores were around, and Safeway stores, there were several of them that were getting robbed, like armed robbery, okay? And they were looking for this beautiful blonde chick. And of course, when the Tulsa Police Department posts her picture, the gay community's like, huh, that's KC Starr, the drag queen. I kid you not, for six months, TPD thought they were looking for a black woman, or a blonde woman, sorry, before they finally figured out they were looking for a drag queen and popped her. Toby Jenkins: And did arrest her? David Dees: Oh yeah, oh yeah, they got her. Toby Jenkins: So it's 1984, there were people beginning to organize outside of just the private gay clubs. When did you hear about AIDS? David Dees: See, this is gonna be a really interesting story because it was such, it was a different time. I mean, today we've got the internet, we've got all this information. You know, back then, the internet, I don't even think when AIDS first, yeah, the internet was probably a thing, but most people didn't know about it. You know, there were bulletin boards and that sort of thing set up, like for colleges where people get information and stuff. But probably about the time, late 80s, early 90s, when AOL became a thing. With AOL coming around, that's when chat rooms were forming. And so as AIDS became more and more talked about and we knew what it was, you know, the gay plague first and the gay cancer and all this stuff, and then all of a sudden you see that it's kind of spreading in other areas. But there were chat rooms out there because I remember having a friend that was HIV positive and finally passed away in 95. But in the early 90s, I would get online and I would search through all these bulletin board rooms out there that had people living with AIDS and survivors because I kept thinking, okay, what are people doing that's working? What are people doing that's not working? You know, because I was desperate to find anything for this friend of mine. You know, like, oh, I make dandelion milk or I do this. You know, so I'm like, well, dandelions supposedly aren't good for you, but how many people are talking about doing this and how many people, you know, are doing whatever? And, you know, now we know that there's so many different strains of it, but then you didn't know that. So really what you were looking at is the people that are living, what are they doing? You know, maybe that's what's keeping them alive. Toby Jenkins: But before the internet, you would have began to hear, talked about. 22 �David Dees: You heard it on the news. That was really all you heard about. Toby Jenkins: You weren't talking about it in the clubs. David Dees: Nobody knew, really knew what it was. I mean, well, okay, when HIV first started, I was in that relationship, okay? That was about the time. So I missed probably the first four or five years of it. You know, because I was in a monotonous relationship. Then I come out and of course, you know, I'm missing friends that I had from 10 years ago, but that wasn't a big deal because everybody left Tulsa then. You went to Dallas, you went to Denver, you went to San Francisco, you went to New York, you went to Atlanta. Everybody left Tulsa, you know? So it wasn't uncommon to all of a sudden, you know, Bob was here, Bob's not here. So you just, you didn't really think about it. I tell you what was the, what really made it hit home for me was, and I think Sharon was the one that got that information for me, was I remembered, I found an old VHS tape that I'd made of the Oklahoma Quilt when it got brought to Tulsa in 92 or 93, I guess is when it was. Dennis Neill: 90 was the first, 1990 was the first. David Dees: Yes, I got it the second time. Toby Jenkins: Here was the first time it was on display, it was 1990? David Dees: Yes, at the Cox Convention Center, Civic Center. So I went through with the videotape, because as a matter of fact, I just put that on Facebook not too long ago, that video that I had transcribed, because I think I sent you a link to it or something, you'd asked me about that so y'all could have that for the record. So that, man, I'll never forget going in there and it's such a huge room and what felt like were thousands of panels to me. I mean, because they were in great big squares, you know, like what, 50 foot by 50 foot or more, maybe they're 100 by 100 foot squares, you know, with all these panels in a big square. I mean, it was just huge and there were, it felt like hundreds of them, of those big squares in there. And you're walking through and you're looking at this thing and you're like, holy shit, so that's what happened to Bob. Oh my God, there's John. Oh my God, there's Terry. I mean, it was just, it was fucking nuts. I mean, back then, cell phones didn't exist. If you called somebody long distance, long distance was expensive, so you just lost track of people, you know? And it wasn't like you had a way, you didn't even know where somebody moved and if they moved, how do you know where they moved to and how do you get their phone number? And, you know, and then God forbid, it's a dollar a minute to call somebody and talk to them. Toby Jenkins: During this time, so chronologically, I'm gonna ask this. So you're working at Zippers…. David Dees: By then, I was, let's see, Sterling's, Sterling's and then after that was Deep Elm at 61st and Memorial, which was the old Palladium. Lord, and then after that, I did go spend three or four years in a straight club. I wound up, Steve Kitchell owned the Palladium that was at Eaton Square at 61st and Memorial. Well, then 23 �Cindy Robson, who is part of the Robson family, had RCB Bank at the time, back in the day and was married or somehow part of Walmart heir. She opened that bar and called it Deep Elm for a while. Well, she wound up losing it, and that's when Steve Kitchell took me and put me in the Ocean Club, and I spent four years in the Ocean Club. Toby Jenkins: As a DJ? David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: DJ and lighting. Lighting and sound? David Dees: Yes. So for four years, I was kind of out of the gay bar. Toby Jenkins: And then you went from that to David Dees: Concessions. Toby Jenkins: Concessions. David Dees: Correct. Toby Jenkins: And then you went from concessions to... David Dees: To the Silver Star. Toby Jenkins: Silver Star. And then Silver Star, you opened Majestic. David Dees: Majestic. Yeah, 23 years ago. Toby Jenkins: So I just wanted to get all that on the record. During that time, back to HIV-AIDS, did y'all begin to see the community organize and do fundraisers? David Dees: Yes. But I didn't get to be a lot of part of that because I was working at Ocean Club. But that reminds me, there was the boxer, Tommy Morrison. Toby Jenkins: Yes. David Dees: Who contracted HIV. And he was a big player at the Ocean Club. So when that happened... Toby Jenkins: He was an Oklahoma player. David Dees: Yes. That sent... Toby Jenkins: A title holder. David Dees: That sent ripples through the straight community. I mean, when I say ripples, I'm talking like six foot waves. I mean, it was insane. Toby Jenkins: And you were working in a straight club. David Dees: Yes. Yes. And I remember the wave of panic that started going through that bar. Toby Jenkins: When it began to hit what we thought was... 24 �David Dees: All of a sudden, it's in the straight community. Toby Jenkins: Heterosexual community. Yes. David Dees: Yes. David Dees: So then, by that time, when was it that I left? I left OC in 95. So in 95 is when I'm back in our community. Because it's like I told Steve. I said, man, I've been out of my element four years. I appreciate everything that I got to do. And I've lived a dream here. But I'm a fish out of water. And I needed to be back in my element. So then I stepped back into the world where all of a sudden, we're doing all these drag benefits for people that are dying. And as a matter of fact, it's really funny too. The first benefit that Majestic did right after we opened was a drag show benefit to raise money for a headstone for Caitlin Kane, Chad Burrell. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. I remember it. David Dees: Because his family wouldn't put a headstone up. And all of his friends were so distraught over that that they came to me and they said, can we do something and get a headstone? I'm like, yeah, we'll raise some money. And we raised it and we had it made. And his friends had input on what they wanted in it. And we had it placed on his grave. It's still out there. Toby Jenkins: So anything else about how AIDS impacted the community and the fundraising efforts that were going on in the clubs and things like that? David Dees: God, they were just constant. You had like, what, Red Ribbon Review. You had, I mean, everybody was doing it. It seemed like we had food pantries, I think. TOHR, I think, did a lot of stuff. Y'all had a food bank, I think, at one time that we would raise and donate canned goods for and stuff. Catholic Charities. Toby Jenkins: So you had the clubs. When do you remember the Tulsa County Health Department and the HIV testing that began to happen in the clubs? David Dees: I remember that happening with us. I don't think that that was really being done before us because I remember... Toby Jenkins: But what club do you first remember there were people there to do testing? David Dees: Okay, TOHR did STD testing for, like, syphilis and gonorrhea. Did we even have HIV tests for a long time? Dennis Neill: Well, what we did, many of us that were doing the STD testing, then we got certified with the Health Department to do HIV testing. But we did that at the OSU Clinic on Southwest Boulevard. David Dees: That's correct. You are right. You're right. I do remember that now. Dennis Neill: We did not do HIV testing in the bars. David Dees: Yeah. Yeah, we first started doing that... Toby Jenkins: TOHR didn't. 25 �David Dees: No, nobody did. Nobody did. Dennis Neill: Not that I'm aware of. David Dees: No one did. Toby Jenkins: Well when, because when I first came out that was the first thing I was told. David Dees: I think I remember we being the first ones to do. Toby Jenkins: At Star? David Dees: No, at Majestic. Toby Jenkins: No. I first met you, you were the DJ. I was at the Star. David Dees: We did not do HIV testing at the Star. Absolutely did not. Toby Jenkins: Yeah you did. Because the first time I ever walked in a gay bar I saw a table and they said what are they doing they said they're doing HIV testing and that would have been in the late 90s. David Dees: I don't remember that at all. Not at the Star. Absolutely no. Dennis Neill: Well that that could be because you know Hope testing by then was doing mobile testing and I remember going to Renegades and they were testing at Renegades and that would have been in the late, after we spun off Hope. I don't know if we did testing in the bars while Hope was part of OHR. Toby Jenkins: Well I may have it all blurred in my mind. David Dees: Yeah, the Star never did. No, I think they would do a few fundraise drag shows kind of things but no. Toby Jenkins: Okay, the reason I'm saying that is because first time I ever went into a club and you know participated in it was at the Silver Star and in my mind you know maybe Concessions I don't know. I can remember somewhere in a club I asked what that was during that period and my thought is I want to get tested but what if I find out I test positive and I'm here in a club I don't really want that all out here I want to do that privately so I went to Tulsa County Health Department to be tested. David Dees: You know we would set up a little spot upstairs that we curtained off. Toby Jenkins: Definitely at Majestic. Yes. From the day it opened it was serving the community. Because I came to you and said I need to register voters. David Dees: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: You set me up, you gave me my own little space. And we registered about 6,000 people through Majestic in a four-month period. I mean I, we would, David and them would line them up just like cattle chutes. Run them up. You had to be registered. This is when we were fighting over marriage equality and George 26 �Bush had said he was going to put the constitutional amendment. So that would have been you know 2003, 2004. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. David Dees: It took a lot of heat for doing HIV testing in the bar from a lot of people. Toby Jenkins: Oh really? David Dees: Oh absolutely. They're like well God what a downer, what are you going to do if this happens? I said you know we've got things in place but but here's the here's the deal and what I would do you know they would be set up and people would just be staring. So what I figured I had to do every time and for the longest time I did do was when they'd come and set up and we'd get people in there I'd go in and get tested and then as soon as I did it you'd have three or four other people do it. Toby Jenkins: So nobody wanted to be the first person to get tested. At this point our community didn't sometimes want to face the reality. David Dees: No absolutely not. Toby Jenkins: They didn't want to face their own mortality. They also didn't want to they didn't want to really be involved in fighting for their own liberation because those kind of things were dull and a downer and and you know I can remember trying to register people to vote and them just cussing me out. Why are you bothering this dude? I'm trying to get my buzz on you know they would get mad. David Dees: I'll say this about our community. Our community can be very interesting. I've said many times that it never ceases to amaze me. The people that scream the loudest about discrimination are oftentimes the worst about doing it and you know I've been it's been said to me many times about what are straight people doing in Majestic? Well this is a man's bar you know I've heard this stuff for years. I remember the Silver Star back in the days when we were also still half country half punk because it started out as country okay and I remember the women lined up along one wall and the men on the other side of the building just glaring at each other across the thing because the men hated that I would play waltzes because the women would waltz and they were too slow and they wanted to two-step and the women hated it because the men would two-step and slam into them. Toby Jenkins: Interesting. I just knew I loved it, it's beautiful. David Dees: Yeah, and the Silver Star really, again, was something that shaped me, that I thought, okay, if I ever get my own room, this is how it will operate. This is what I will tolerate, this is what I will not tolerate. And I've always run that room that way. Toby Jenkins: We've talked a little bit about the violence and the attacks and people being threatened and people being accosted. Do you have any recollection of, like, we've talked about people calling you names and the police harassing you. Do you have recollections of acts of violence? And I wanna lead into this to the night that you hosted the memorial for the Pulse Nightclub shooting. But prior to this, do you remember over the years, acts of violence we talked about? 27 �David Dees: When I was younger, absolutely, I remember going to the bars and what it was like. Toby Jenkins: I think you mentioned some club owner had been killed or? David Dees: That was probably a situation where somebody might have been out doing their thing and ran across somebody that was unsuspected while they were doing their thing. But there was a club owner that was, well, that was murdered out at Mohawk Park. That had a drag cabaret at, do you remember who? Okay. I just didn't wanna say his name. Toby Jenkins: If it's on public record, you can share it. David Dees: Who knows if that's public record now? I mean, because again, it's probably on microfiche somewhere, but I mean, where do you find that microfiche? And did that microfiche survive? Dennis Neill: It's on our website, our history website. David Dees: So, you know, that was- It's Mr. Tim. Dennis Neill: Well, I thought it was the partner of Mr. Tim that was murdered. David Dees: For some reason, I thought it was Mr. Tim. I think it was him, actually, butDennis Neill: And he was also winning the publisher of Another World. David Dees: Yes, I forgot about that little rag mag, yeah. Sure enough, it was Mr. Tim. It was kind of our version of Twit and the Galey back in the day. Sure was. [Editor’s note – In 1990, bar owner Tim Turner wrote a history of the early gay bar life, “A Flash from the Past,” which is in the archives and available at history.okeq.org. In the article, Tim clarifies the Mohawk murder: The Blue Haven opened November, 1948 by the 'much loved' Producer, Activist and Entrepreneur, the late M.C. Parker. M.C. Parker and Tim Warren would later cultivate and produce the largest, most spectacular Oklahoma Gay Event in history, the Miss Gay Oklahoma Pageant at the Camelot Inn. (Tim Warren, his life partner forty years his younger, was later murdered and his body discovered in Mohawk Park. The murder was never solved, as well as most gay murders in our city as I recall.] Toby Jenkins: So, about the violence, being yelled at, being threatened, were there stories of people were beat up outside of the clubs in those 80s, 70s, 80s? Speaker 4: 70s, early 80s, yeah. Maybe it picked up a little bit when AIDS first came on the scene because we all of a sudden became the plague. And this is probably where my, again, another unpopular thing that I always did. I was always kind of straight women, okay? Because when AIDS was just full blown and everybody hated the gays and you couldn't touch them and God forbid, don't eat off a fork or a spoon or something that they've touched or drink out of their glass. Straight women, I mean, we had our fag hags for lack of better words, you know? 28 �So, straight women, to me, were our first ally, really, honestly. So, I always made it a point to treat them with respect because, again, my deal was the only way that I am ever going to educate anybody about gay people is to show you that my skin is the same as yours, it feels the same as yours, it has hair like you. When I cut myself, I bleed red just like you. I am no different from who you are other than the fact of who I fall in love with. Other than that, there's no difference. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember when y'all agreed to host the memorial for the Pulse nightclub shooting? And what a difference the community, I mean, there were skyscrapers that were lit in rainbow colors to show solidarity. David Dees: You know, but here's the deal, Toby. We've always been, Tulsa has always been like that, it seems like. I mean, I noticed that, especially probably in 95, 96, towards 2000, okay, after I left Ocean Club, I didn't tell anybody where I was going. Nobody knew where I was going. I just left, abruptly left. One weekend I was there, one weekend I was not. Nobody knew. So then I'm at Concessions, and it's probably two or three months down the road, and all of a sudden I see three or four girls in there that I knew from the Ocean Club, you know? And then a week later, there were 40 or 50 women in there that I knew from the Ocean Club. You know, eight, nine months later, half the room I knew from the damn Ocean Club. You know, and then all of a sudden, with those women, two or three boyfriends or husbands. And then more, and then more. And it just, all of a sudden, Concessions was the first bar that really was a melting pot. And it was. Because it was right there on Peoria, in the middle of the strip, everything. And that's when, initially when they opened, you entered in the back door through the parking lot alley. Well, as things started growing, Kirk was like, you know what, fuck this shit, we're gonna open the front door, we're here, we're queer, and we're gonna know. And for years, the Peoria, or Brookside Merchants Association, for probably four years of the five years that bar was open, ignored that bar. That it didn't exist. They did everything, boo-ha-ha, all that crap. Never once were we ever included in anything, with anything with the Brookside Merchants Association, never. And then we did that drag queen car wash on the back parking lot. Toby Jenkins: At Concessions? David Dees: Yes. Courtney Farrell and the Brookside Divas did that drag queen car wash. And it blew up. And they did multiple drag queen car washes on that parking lot to raise money. But, you know, getting back to what you were saying with that Pulse thing. You know, it's really funny because all of the years that we've been there, not once have I ever worried about anything happening in that bar. Because it seems like the straight community loves that bar as much as the gay community loved that bar. And I always felt like people just wouldn't tolerate anything being done to it. And nothing in 23 years has ever been done to that room. It's never been vandalized. It's nothing. Toby Jenkins: Very good. Do you remember the Pulse nightclub memorial service that was there? 29 �Toby Jenkins: I can't remember if GT was the mayor or if he was a candidate. He was there. Um, he's running, I can't remember. David Dees: I'll never forget you telling, you shouting, we love you Orlando. And all those people. I mean, it was loud. I mean, there was a lot of people. Toby Jenkins: And the skyscrapers downtown. They had put rainbow things on it. David Dees: It was insane. Toby Jenkins: And the police, for every gay person, there was two police there to protect us that night when we went out to the Guthrie Green. David Dees: I remember they were on the roof of my apartment across from the club, sharpshooters up there. Toby Jenkins: I just wonder, when we came to that place to remember it, it was important that the interfaith community and corporate leaders and political figures knew that we considered that our sacred space, that it was there because people had been murdered in Orlando in a club. DavidDees: Absolutely. Just for having a good time, being themselves. They were hurting nobody. Toby Jenkins: And I just want to say for viewers, multiple times you have hosted memorial services for individuals. David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Fundraisers for people in crisis. And for causes, not just for the LGBT community, but foster care organizations, domestic violence organizations. David Dees: Because I mean...Emergency Infant Children Services, for example. We have lesbian women that have children that depend on that, you know? And I've had people go, well, that's not a gay organization. They're helping gay people. What the hell does it matter? And again, you know, it boils down to, even with things that are going on now, why are you still letting these straight people in here? You know what, dude, here's the deal. We're not gonna get anywhere by being shitty to somebody. The only thing that we can do is continue to educate people. Toby Jenkins: Can we put that on a banner? David Dees: Well, it's the truth, it is the truth. Toby Jenkins: It needs to be a logo. David Dees: Why are you trying to, you know, some bad man touched you and hurt you, okay? They're not all doing it, so why are you gonna be mean to everybody? You know, we've got a lot of people out there. Again, the only way we are ever going to get them to understand who we are is to educate them as to who we are and that we are no different. 30 �Toby Jenkins: Do you remember when we had the first parade and I believe you, I don't remember what club it was, but I remember you being at the parade and we had a float. I know Renegade's float caught on fire, but … David Dees: Yeah, I just, the thing that stands out for me is I will never, y'all were coming down 15th Street, it seemed like, and I think it was the World got a picture of that flag with everybody carrying that flag. Thing was huge and beautiful, God, it was beautiful. Toby Jenkins: And then for years, we organized over there at the Tulsa Theater, whatever it's called now. What is it called now? David Dees: Tulsa Theater, it was Brady Theater back then. Toby Jenkins: And we would organize in that parking lot and come down and right in the middle of the bike race, the bike race, and you guys had to do all of that. And then the city council told us we had to change our, look, had to change our route. David Dees: You know what's funny about that damn bike race now? As soon as that bike race is over, that crowd comes into the club and it'll catch a drag show. It's, well, you know, we, I remember, I think we were one of the first LGBT organizations that put money into a race. We'd do like a little cash prize for the blah, blah, blah, whatever, little bounty thing or something. And I remember the first time I walked up to them, I'm like, what's this y'all are doing? And they're like, well, you know, different people, like, you know, the first person that comes through that's wearing a Santa hat on, you know, blah, blah, blah. So they'd have all these different things open and I'd be like, okay, you know, 500 bucks for this person or whatever. And I'll never forget the first time I heard, you know, Club Majestic, blah, blah, blah, yeah. And people were like, what? Toby Jenkins: I want to say this for our viewers. I've always appreciated so much your support of all of the community and for everything that was happening. And the unique thing about you, David Dees, is Club Majestic, for as long as I was involved here at the Equality Center, was one of our corporate sponsors for Pride. Now, let me make sure our audience understands the difference. You would write a significant check out of your own business and personal to corporately support Pride as a cash gift. In addition to, you would let us have fundraisers there to raise money for Pride and all the different accoutrements of that. Many times, our clubs would let us have fundraisers at their clubs, and then they counted that as their sponsorship, and they wanted to be recognized as a sponsor, yet we were the ones that raised the money in their clubs. And I was happy to do that. But it alwaysDavid Dees: I get it with them. Toby Jenkins: Because you wrote a check and gave it to us and then let us have a fundraiser there too. David Dees: Yeah, a lot of these smaller clubs just didn't have the means that we had. You know, we were fortunate to be the big boy on the block. So, you know, and when you're the big boy on the block, you've got a little more responsibility and a little more, and you've got more leeway to be able to do something. 31 �Toby Jenkins: But I want it on the record. David Dees: I appreciate that. Toby Jenkins: You did more than the others. David Dees: It was never a thing that was done for recognition. Toby Jenkins: It was just, yeah. So I wonder if our panel, does anybody else have a question for David Dees? And do you have anything specifically you want to make sure we include in our interview? David Dees: Man, I had so many notes. You know, one thing that I wanted to mention too, that I think is really important to bring up in our history is, again, it goes back to back when HIV was devastating us. There's, up on North Denver, there's, I think it's a little Catholic, Hispanic church now, white. But that's where Catholic Charities had the hospice. And that's where I had a lot of friends that actually… Toby Jenkins: St. Joseph House. David Dees: Yes, yes. You know, I had many friends that wound up there because their families either couldn’t take care of them or wouldn't take care of them. And some people I know that passed away there, went there because their families didn't know. Oh, that's another thing I was going to bring up too. Do you remember when TOHR was at 36th and Peoria? Up above and Daddy's Bar and Grill was there. John Willis had that. Dennis Neill: And well, wasn't it Rick's? David Dees: Yes. Dennis Neill: And it wasn't John, it was Jim. David Dees: Jim from, he was with the Tulsa County Court. Jim and Rick, Rick was his partner. And then after they closed it, John did Daddy's there. Dennis Neill: That's right, right. Toby Jenkins: TOHR's first LGBT center. David Dees: Was that, or were you at 41st and Harvard first? Dennis Neill: Yes, the only thing at 41st and Harvard, which is actually 39th and Harvard. It wasn't really large. So we didn't have a community meeting. David Dees: That's correct. Dennis Neill: And we did not have a store there. David Dees: You all just moved the phone lines there, didn't you, from Zippers. Dennis Neill: And then we ran HIV testing out there for a while. David Dees: That's correct. Dennis Neill: And then we ran the AIDS Support Program out there. 32 �Toby Jenkins: Anything else on your notes? David Dees: Well, I definitely, you know, and you do have it on your site, but I think it's important to bring up that Tim Turner, who owned Tim's Playroom, wrote a history of, I mean, like, good Lord. I wish people could have met Gene from the Bamboo Lounge. What a character, what a character. That's all I've got about him. What a character. Everybody had to have a rite of passage. You took them in to meet Gene. Toby Jenkins: At the Bamboo. David Dees: At the Bamboo, yes. And Gene would, we would be like, Gene, John's never been here before. You need to make him a pair of jeans. And oh, Lord. He, boy, he was a flamboyant little queen. Like, first thing, here's what I remember about the Bamboo, okay? I remember walking to the Bamboo and like, what a beautiful aquarium behind the bar with, I've never seen so many dicks in my life in an aquarium. They had dicks that blew air bubbles and dicks that the fish were eating algae off of it. I mean, there were penises everywhere in that aquarium. They probably even had a penis-shaped fish that you just didn't know was in there because you were too busy looking at all the penises in the aquarium. Lord have mercy. But man, what an incredible man he was. He was such, such a neat man. Toby Jenkins: It was such a loss when that club closed. David Dees: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: Because it had the distinction of being one of the longest clubs around. And we tried, at the time, the present administration, or the previous administration of Obama, they were beginning, the National Park Service was looking for historical places to register on the historical registry. And we were trying to work to get Bamboo included in that. And then it closed. David Dees: You know, the, what was it, another thing that, you know, our bars, too, were so diverse back then. You had your gay men's bar, you had the cruise bar, you had the dance club, the women had their bar. You know, so it was like, I remember, the Zebra Lounge was pretty much down about, what, sixth to seventh on Main. It was the block north of Harrington's, when Harrington's was there. You know, that was where your older clientele hung out. You know, Taj Mahal, of course, was your little hustler bar. Lord have mercy. We had so many different, unique things. You know, TNT's, how long did TNT's go on for? They were a good 20 years. Toby Jenkins: Oh, longer than that. David Dees: Easy. You know, I remember the Club, when it was on Memorial, back in the day. I'll never forget. Jane Ann Earl. Lord, I was, okay, I was working at a bank at the time. I'd just gotten, I was a bank teller for like two or three years, and I'll never forget. You know, she was a larger than life lesbian woman, okay? I mean, and she was a big woman, and she drove a Pontiac Bonneville, big old tank car, and she'd come flying that thing, and I always, here's what I remember about her. On her dash of her car, she had like a leopard print dash cover, and she was just rough and tough. I mean, she was tough, and I always loved her, and she would always look at me, she'd be like, hi, baby. Oh, Lord, she was such a neat lady, Jane Ann Earl. I need to go try to look that name up. She'd have to be dead by now. 33 �Toby Jenkins: The helpful thing from this interview is that we now know that Patty was your high school friend. And rescued you in the street, made you come back in with wanting to get her interviewed. Anything else on your notes? David Dees: And she may or may not remember that, but I was just like, she was like, David Dees, David Dees, I'm Patty Murray, we went to high school together. Don't hurt me. Toby Jenkins: Anything else on your notes that you want to make sure we include? And then I would like if Mary or Dennis have a question for you. David Dees: Oh, absolutely. Let's see. Oh, the Camelot Inn, Trudy Tyler, our first Miss Gay Oklahoma, U.S. of A. She was crowned there. Toby Jenkins: Very good. And that would, do you remember the year? David Dees: I want to say 75, I think. Toby Jenkins: And I've been told, Dennis may know from the archives, because I think it's included in our archives, and it was covered by the media. They would have people protest outside that the Camelot was hosting the pageant. David Dees: Absolutely, absolutely. Toby Jenkins: And the Camelot was a bougie place in those days. David Dees: Yes, it was, absolutely, very much so. And I don't remember if she wrote for the World or the Tribune, but Joanne Gordon. I mean, that lady, and I think I furnished y'all with copies of that, too, where she's like, Joanne discovers the Fruit Loop, and she wrote a whole article, because she would, her and her husband, they'd write editorial, you know, just a little commentary every day, editorial-type thing. Toby Jenkins: And for our audience, what was the Fruit Loop? David Dees: Oh, Lord, the Fruit Loop was, okay, let's see. We go down to 6th Street, okay, so it started at 9th Street, go down past Holy Family Cathedral to 6th Street, then we would head east on 6th Street to Main, and then we'd come up Main, go past Kathy's, 8th and 9th on Main, and then turn right at the apartment complex that was there, and go back to Boulder. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so these were all one-way streets in downtown Tulsa. David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And it was like a cruising place where people could… David Dees: Hundreds of people cruising, and it was every night of the week, but Friday and Saturday night, you'd have 100 cars on that parking lot across from Holy Family Cathedral until the cops would run us off. Toby Jenkins: I may know a little bit about it, or maybe not, but it was very popular. David Dees: I know a lot about it. 34 �Toby Jenkins: All right, our panel, does anybody else have a question for David Dees? We've got a person who was there and saw it happen. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: When did the Fruit Loop's driving end? David Dees: 80s, probably, yeah. Because all the bars started moving out of the downtown area. Because for the longest time, they were all downtown. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: As a bar owner, what do you think makes you be so benevolent to the community and take it upon yourself to assist the community in so many ways as you have over the years, rather than just sit back and rake in the money and not care about who you're taking it from? David Dees: Probably being as old as I am and experienced. Honestly, I'm like I said, it all goes back to that deal with my mom. Honestly, with me was she? She just showed me honestly what unconditional love was, what come, what compassion was, and I think I kind of learned: you learn what you will put up with and you learn what you will not put up with. You know, and so then you have to learn how to apply that evenly across the board, and I've always I've, in running that club, it's always been with me, what's fair is fair, and if it's fair for you, then it's fair for you. It's not, it's just not ever been one segment was treated better than another segment. It can't be that way. And it's also been an educational tool, like I've said many times. You know, I I don't want to feel like somebody, oh, you have that little Trump derangement syndrome where I say it's like a ministry. But it kind of was. It was a ministry in a way, because it was a tool to teach people who we were. Again, it was like: you know, look, I have hair on my arm, so do you? So do you? Look, I believe red, so do you. You know I love, so do you. Now, who I love may be different from who you love, but you know that was that was always….just the whole point was: you know we're here, you know what you're, welcome. Come on in, learn about us, have fun with us. We'll have fun with you. Toby Jenkins: So it'd be. To recap, it would be your mother's influence made you look out for others, and not just. David Dees: I think absolutely that that moment with my mom was probably one of the most incredibly pivotal moments in my life. It was. It was a huge life lesson. It's a life lesson I never forgot. David Dees: Dennis, do you have a question for our guests today. Dennis Neill: Not at this time, thank you. Toby Jenkins: Okay, I know that you are maybe not as visible at the club. Do you want to acknowledge the people that run the place? David Dees: Yes, I'm definitely not. I mean, I'm a couple years from 70, so I'm definitely not as up to being up there. I definitely can't race up down the stairs like I used to. As far as hands-on, I'm still very much hands-on behind the scenes I can. I can assure people that I've got people in place, that they're- they're still doing what it is I want done and running it how I want done and a lot of the things that are in place- the, the security that's in place. That's how I want it done and I want it very 35 �visible. I want people to know that, you know we're very well aware of what's going on out there. Toby Jenkins: And the manager today is Chris Shoaf. David Dees: Chris has run that for me technically for probably easily ten years, but he was also a big part even before then. Toby Jenkins: And he would be known to our viewers because of his activism, work and his being a strong advocate. David Dees: Absolutely, I I think I think people don't really realize the amount of time and the and the things that you know, Chris… Chris can be very vocal sometimes and I think some people are like, oh, it's a little dramatic. But I can promise you, if there's something going on, he's the one that's out there barking. He's the dog out in the yard in the middle of the night barking to let you know that, hey, something's going on. Maybe you ought to get up right. Toby Jenkins: And that is the manager at the Majestic. I know another thing I want to before we finish. So in a minute I'm going to ask you what we ask all of our guests: do you have a message for the future, for young people or the people who come after us? So in a minute I'm going to ask you for that. But I wanted you to tell a little bit about I know you live in a house that's on wheels and live in a travel trailer motor home, and I know you're a part of a group of LGBT people that get together. Toby Jenkins: Yes, what's the name of that group? David Dees: There's a couple now. There's one that's based out of Oklahoma City: Pride in the Pines LGBT Camping, and then the greater Tulsa LGBT Camping. It was based, you know, on eastern Oklahoma and then, of course, there's a lot of intermingling with the members in each group. Toby Jenkins: And kind of what is its focus. David Dees: You get together, just get together, hang out, meet, meet, and I mean it's just absolutely, yeah, absolutely, it's fun, that's I used to run, Dennis and John. Their first time I ran into them camping was at Natural Falls, I believe. Toby Jenkins: Very good. So as we finish our time together, I'm going to ask you: do you have a message for the future, for those that come after us? Is there something you want to say? David Dees: Know your worth, absolutely know your worth. Don't settle for anything less you are. I feel like I've tried to lead life by the golden rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you, but don't expect them to do unto you, or you're probably going to be sorely disappointed. But you always, always, always, lead by example, and I get it. Sometimes it's hard and sometimes you turn the cheek, sometimes you get a few teeth knocked out, but it's just how…It's how you've got to do it. It reminds me of the days of Act Up, you know, and I've heard it applied to the riots that went on with George Floyd and all this. I, you know, and I'm somebody said: 36 �well, I just don't agree with doing this and doing that. Well, I remember with Act Up, I didn't used to like some of the things that act up did. I know why they did it, because sometimes you have to go to that extreme to make people stop and go whoa and and look at things and think. Toby Jenkins: And Act Up would have been an activist group that was very visible and involved in the 80s and some of their protests were pretty dramatic, everything from sprinkling the ashes the cremated remains of their lovers on the lawn of the White House, and then they had protests at the cathedrals because of their stand on condemning condom use. David Dees: Absolutely and like, like I said, some of them at the time. Some of these things seem really extreme but again, sometimes you have to stop, step outside of the box, look at what's real. What's going on? What, what is, what is the intent here? Sometimes it looks malice, but maybe it's not. Toby Jenkins: Our time today has been with David Dees. Any closing words, sir, before we finish our time together? David Dees: No, I'm happy. I touched on a lot of things that were important, I think. And there's there's a lot of history that a lot of people don't know about. Toby Jenkins: So when are you going to run for an elected office> David Dees: Absolutely never. Toby Jenkins: Well, I think you've got some campaign slogans. David Dees: I intend to live out my the rest of my years. That's another thing that people need to remember. Live your life happy. That's it. In the grand scheme of things, nothing else matters. Water off a duck's back Toby Jenkins: You've been listening to David Dees David Dees: Preach the gospel. Toby Jenkins: Here in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library in the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, the headquarters of Oklahomans for Equality and he is a part of our history project. Thank you. Addendum: Given David’s initial work at Zippers, the editor has added the following for the Zippers Facebook page established in 2016 by a group of former patrons of the bar: ABOUT ZIPPERS In 1975, construction began on a 6,023 square foot building on 33rd Street, just west of South Yale Avenue in Tulsa, OK. Completed early in 1976, it originally opened as Casino Disco, a private gambling and dancing club that did not remain open for long. An upscale discotheque named Casablanca followed, but it too was short lived, and was followed by yet another club named Sweetwater Station, which failed to develop a following and also closed in a matter of months. By 1978, the building was just a 37 �little over two years old and had been home to three failed ventures--but that was about to change. In the Fall of 1978, John Willis with the help of an investor from a prominent Tulsa family opened Zippers Electric Circus, a club that catered to a mostly gay clientele, although everyone was welcome. Prior to Zippers, Willis was doing sound work at the Old Plantation, another gay club near 51st and Yale, which shared a parking lot with a Steak and Ale Restaurant. Willis used his knowledge and experience to ensure that the sound system at Zippers would be the finest in the area at the time, and it was said to be the best west of the Mississippi River. Zippers had an intimate atmosphere, and reliably packed in patrons night after night. Theme parties such as Fantasy in Red, Fantasy in Black, and Hollywood Nights attracted even larger crowds, and from time to time entertainers such as Sylvester and Pamala Stanley appeared in the club. Zippers was a trend setter by establishing shared men's and women's rest rooms, which often surprised first time visitors. Zippers was a big hit, and pulled in visitors from other states. It was not unusual to see tags from five or more states on cars in the parking lot. After 10 years, Willis opened a new club named Strokes in the Brookside area of Tulsa, and closed Zippers, ending an era that had to be experienced to be understood, and one that created many friendships and fond memories for everyone fortunate enough to have been a part of it. John Willis passed away in 1993, but he and the establishment he envisioned and created lives on today in the memories of many. This group is dedicated to John Willis, the staff at Zippers who greeted all who entered, poured their drinks, mixed the music, cleaned up the mess, and to everyone who came to dance, drink, and made Zippers a part of their lives from 1978 to 1987. 38 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] David Dees Interview Subject The topic of the resource Donald Dees Oral History Project Interview from April 21, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource David Dees, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 21, 2026 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived This interview with David Dees offers a deep dive into the history of LGBTQ+ community life in Tulsa, including early club culture, personal experiences with family acceptance, and the evolution of Pride events. It provides valuable insights into the challenges and resilience of the community over decades. Join us for an in-depth interview with David Dees as he shares his experiences and insights from decades of activism, community organizing, and the history of LGBTQ+ life in Tulsa. Discover stories of community resilience, the fight against AIDS, and the importance of education and inclusion. 2026 AIDS AIDS/HIV David Dees Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill HIV/AIDs interview LGBT history OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Pride Toby Jenkins transcript video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/80a666c71fa7d00ebe6c35e6c3cd5029.mp4 a529e7f8f4fac75bb63c5db6e403adfb https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/1fb8011913addc5505031ad0b07566bc.pdf a0af57e73d112460472ed6b6c2955e74 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Gordon George Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: February 3, 2026 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video February 8, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Gordon George Keywords Gordon George, LGBTQ history, Tulsa, community, coming out, AIDS crisis, activism, volunteer work, identity, equality Takeaways ● Gordon George shares his early life in Oswego, Kansas. ● He discusses the challenges of fitting in during school. ● Moving to Tulsa was a pivotal moment for Gordon's identity. ● He recalls his first experiences in the gay community. ● Gordon's involvement in LGBTQ activism began in the 80s. ● He faced challenges during the AIDS crisis and supported affected friends. ● Coming out to his family was a significant turning point. ● Gordon reflects on the changes in the LGBTQ community over the years. ● He emphasizes the importance of volunteering and community support. ● Gordon encourages future generations to appreciate and protect their rights. 2 �Summary In this conversation, Gordon George shares his life story, detailing his experiences growing up in Kansas, moving to Tulsa, and discovering his identity as a gay man. He reflects on the challenges he faced in school, his involvement in the LGBTQ community, and the impact of the AIDS crisis. Gordon discusses his journey of coming out to his family, the importance of volunteering, and the progress of LGBTQ rights over the years. He emphasizes the need for continued activism and support for future generations. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Early Life 03:04 School Experiences and Identity 05:55 Moving to Tulsa and Discovering Community 09:05 Exploring Sexuality and Relationships 11:59 Involvement in the LGBTQ Community 14:59 Challenges and Triumphs in the 80s 18:08 Family Dynamics and Coming Out 20:59 AIDS Crisis and Community Support 24:03 Volunteering and Activism 27:05 Reflections on Change and Progress 30:00 Current Involvement and Future Outlook Gordon George Oral History Interview February 3, 2026 Toby Jenkins: This is February the 3rd on Tuesday in 2026, and we're here in the Nancy and Joe Rainbow Library at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. And today, we are interviewing Gordon George. And Gordon, can you tell us your name and your date of birth? Gordon George: Gordon George, 10-5-53. Toby Jenkins: Okay, very good. And where were you born? Gordon George: Oswego, Kansas. Toby Jenkins: Oswego, Kansas. And about where is that located? Gordon George: Southeast Kansas. Toby Jenkins: Southeast Kansas, so not far from the Oklahoma line? Gordon George: Right. 3 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And is that a little town, big town? Gordon George: Little. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: They don't even have a hospital anymore. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Do they still have a full high school and all of that? Gordon George: As far as I know, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. So you were born there and is that where your parents are from? Gordon George: They're from Southeast Kansas, yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And what was your dad's name and what is your mom's name? Gordon George: Freddy was my dad. My mother was Stella. Toby Jenkins: Stella? And are they still living? Gordon George: My dad's still kicking, 92. Toby Jenkins: 92 years old. Gordon George: And mother's been gone 23 years. Toby Jenkins: Okay. What was their careers? What did they do forGordon George: My dad was a teamster. Toby Jenkins: Oh. Gordon George: And mother was a homemaker and then she went into tax preparation. Did that for many years. Toby Jenkins: And how many siblings? Do you have siblings? Gordon George: I have one brother and a sister. I was the middle child. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Are they both still with us? Gordon George: No. My brother died twelve years ago, I think. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And my sister's still with us. She lives near Kansas City. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Were you ever married? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: So you don't have any children that you know of? 4 �Gordon George: No. I know there's no children. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Very good. All right. So your father's still living. Where did you go to school? Gordon George: Independence, Kansas. Toby Jenkins: And so did your family move to Independence, Kansas, or? Gordon George: Yes. We moved to Coffeyville when I was very young. And we moved to Independence when I was in the third grade. Toby Jenkins: And what was Independence like? Gordon George: Horrible. Toby Jenkins: The school you mean or just the city? Gordon George: It was a clicky town. Very clickish. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And I have no desire to go back other than to see my dad. Toby Jenkins: So no warm feelings, or? Gordon George: Oh, no, no, no. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And you moved there in the third grade, was it difficult? New kid in that school. Did you not feel welcome, or? Gordon George: Oh, in grade school, it wasn't so bad. It's junior high and high school is when it got rough. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: Because I didn't feel I fit in. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Because you weren't from Independence and you all had moved there or because of your religion or your ethnicity or because youGordon George: We lived south of Main Street. We didn't live on the good side of town. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And people looked at that, where you live. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: So I just- it's still that way. That town's still that way. Toby Jenkins: Still very clickish and segregated according to class. Gordon George: Yes. 5 �Toby Jenkins: And according to a person's- how much money they make. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Because people's descriptions of small towns are that they're wonderful and welcoming and everybody's so close and looks after each other. But that wasn't your experience. Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Where did you go to high school? Gordon George: Independence. Toby Jenkins: And what year did you graduate? Gordon George: '71. Toby Jenkins: 1971. Okay. And did you go on to technical school? Were you in the military? Gordon George: I attended junior college. I didn't graduate. And I moved to Oklahoma in '79. Toby Jenkins: '79? Now, where did you go to junior college? Gordon George: Independence. Toby Jenkins: Independence. Oh, there's a junior school and college there? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And then I came- when I moved here, I went to Tulsa Junior College here for a couple courses. I did some- I got my real estate license with Tulsa Tech here in Tulsa, so. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been in '79 when you moved to Tulsa? Gordon George: Yes, I think so. Toby Jenkins: So how did you decide to move to Tulsa? Gordon George: To get out of that. Toby Jenkins: To get out of Independence? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Right. So you went to high school there. I mean did you have a job there in Independence for a while? Gordon George: I worked for Southwestern Bell. 6 �Toby Jenkins: Okay. Is that what brought you to Tulsa? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: You were able to transfer? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay, perfect. And what was that like in the 1970s? Working with- what did you do with Southwest Bell? Gordon George: I was actually- when I started, I started as a cord board operator. The Lily Tomlin. Toby Jenkins: Really? Gordon George: Yeah. Actually doing the cords into the switchboard. Toby Jenkins: So if I had called there in the 70s, you would have answered and you would have transferred my call or you would have made a long distance call or did you do information? What was yourGordon George: All of it. Toby Jenkins: All of it. Gordon George: Okay. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And I came to Oklahoma and went into information from there and then went into sales at the phone store. Toby Jenkins: How neat. Mall Bell. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So that's what brought you to Tulsa. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Now, since you were never married, what pronoun do you use? How do you identify your gender? Gordon George: I'm a gay male. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you identify as a gay man. Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember- we've talked about how you weren't happy in Independence and that you felt some isolation. Did you have an awareness that you were gay or that you had same-sex attraction? 7 �Gordon George: Oh yeah. Starting back in junior high school. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you began to have those feelings and you knew what that was. Okay. And did you have resources? I mean did you go to the library and look in a book or did you just kind of knew what that meant? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever feel any kind of awareness that there were other people in your school who were like you? Gordon George: One. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Did you ever feel like some of your unhappiness in junior high and high school had to do with- did anybody bully you or make you feel like you were different? Gordon George: Oh, I was bullied, yes. Particularly one gentleman or one kid. I don't know if- why he targeted me. But paybacks are hell. He died young. Toby Jenkins: Oh, mercy. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So you don't really, you don't feel like you were bullied in high school because they perceived you were different, or? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you said that you were in junior high when you had these feelings. When you moved to Tulsa with Southwestern Bell, I still- I just think that's fascinating that you were- you used the Lily Tomlin one ringy dingy to the switchboard operator. Which- I'm just out of curiosity, I don't know that I ever called information and ever got a male voice. Did you ever hear anybody be surprised that it was a male sounding voice that answered the line or? Gordon George: Not so much because we had a female that sounded like a guy. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So there was two of us. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And of course my voice was a little high. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So. 8 �Toby Jenkins: Fascinating. So you had came to Tulsa. You were an adult, young adult. Did you realize you were gay? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: And were ready to act upon it and? Gordon George: Yeah, first time in a gay bar when I came to Oklahoma. Toby Jenkins: And do you remember what year that would have been? Gordon George: 80. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And do you remember what the bar was, the club? Gordon George: Tim's Playroom. Toby Jenkins: Tim's Playroom. Okay. And how did you find out about Tim's Playroom? Gordon George: A co-worker invited me to go. Toby Jenkins: So you had a gay co-worker? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And he invited me to go with him, and we went to the bar. First time I was in a bar. Toby Jenkins: And what was your thoughts that first experience of being in a space where there were other people like you? And it was that nobody could look into it. The windows were covered overGordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: - and you could beGordon George: And it was a drag show that day, too. Toby Jenkins: Oh, was it? That's the first time you'd ever? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Yeah? Do you remember your feelings that day, or? Gordon George: I was nervous as hell. Toby Jenkins: Really? Gordon George: Yeah. 'Cause I didn't know what to expect. I just really didn't know what going to a gay bar was gonna entail. I had no idea, so. Toby Jenkins: Now, had you had an intimate relationship prior to going to the gay bar? I mean, had you had an intimate9 �Gordon George: ... back in junior high. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: Same one, over and over. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So that was when you explored your sexuality? Gordon George: He brought me out, yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so you knew from junior high on that you were attracted to your same sex? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: So when you moved to Tulsa, you had this co-worker. Did you begin to explore other relationships with gay men? Gordon George: Yes, but not with my co-worker. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you went to Tim's playroom. Did that become kind of something you did on a regular basis? Went to gay bars andGordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Most weekends. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Because at work, you couldn't be out, right? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: I mean, that was a ... . Gordon George: Well, it wasn't so much. I think people perceived that if you worked as an operator, that maybe you were gay, as a perception. But I wasn't out. I wasn't open about it. Toby Jenkins: What was the community like, that you found in the clubs and the bars? Gordon George: More accepting than I thought it would be. Toby Jenkins: So you're just a boy from KansasGordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: - Land in the big city. And what was Tulsa like in those days? Gordon George: Other than the bars, I didn't do much, 'cause of the hours that I worked with Bill. 'Cause there's times that I worked nights and late evenings. Go in at six o'clock and get off at midnight. Or go in at 06:00 and stay till 02:00, it just depends. 10 �Gordon George: So it kinda- and there was more one-on-one in those days with your customers online, or on the phone than there is today. Because they had to physically ask for addresses and stuff like that if we could even give it out. And more interaction with the publicToby Jenkins: Oh, yeah. Gordon George: - Than there is today. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, you called information for everything. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: There were even songs about information. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you had went to Tim's playroom, and that's how you first connected with the gay community in Tulsa? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. It's the early 80s, late 70s in Tulsa. Did you go to any theater programs, any sports events? And just a part of the culture in Tulsa thatGordon George: Yeah. We'd do public events, like when they had ice skating at the downtown. We'd go to the Nutcracker during the holidays on ice. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Gordon George: Go do that kinda thing and let it out. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Tulsa had a downtown mall in those daysGordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: - Built around, I think it's called the Galleria, wasn't it? Dennis Neill: Forum. Toby Jenkins: Forum, called the Forum. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Galleria was in Dallas. So you would do things like that, social events. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Now, when you went to this club, did you meet some other guys, and they kinda became your posse, or your clique of friends, or? Gordon George: No, it was more introduction through the co-worker. Because he had been out for many years. 11 �Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And he introduced me to some of his friends. We'd become a circle of friends that would do things, mainly go to the bars. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Do you remember some of the other clubs that you might've went to? You keep saying the bars. Gordon George: Zippers. Toby Jenkins: Went to Zippers, okay. And what was Zippers? Gordon George: It was a high-energy bar. Toby Jenkins: Like a disco? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And of course, The Bamboo. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Yeah, whichGordon George: That was a trash bar. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, but it had been there forever. Yeah, it's one of the oldest. And it was in the north part of Tulsa. The Zippers was Midtown, like 31st and Yale. Gordon George: Yale. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So were there any- through the clubs, were you aware of any things like gay softball leagues, gay churches? Gordon George: Gay churches. I attended Metropolitan Community for a while. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And where was it located? Gordon George: North Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So I know that they also had a congregation in Jenks at one time, but you went to the north Tulsa location on Queen. It was on Queen. Gordon George: I couldn't tell you. Toby Jenkins: And- so you were connected to that. What about any of the gay softball programs, or what about pride picnics? Gordon George: I had- I- when they had it at Mohawk Park, I drove through it once. I thought, no, I can't do this. Toby Jenkins: And why was that? Gordon George: The crowd, and I just didn't feel comfortable. 12 �Toby Jenkins: Was it because of visibility, or just the large crowd? Gordon George: More the large crowd. Toby Jenkins: Okay, yeah. So that was the- that would've been the early 80s, and you were still with Southwest Bell. Were you staying in contact with your family? I mean, it's pretty common for gay men, lesbian women to move from small towns to bigger cities, where there can be some distance between their families in those days because they didn't wanna embarrass their families, or they wanted their life- their adult life to be private. Were you still in contact with your parents and independents? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: It didn't change. I mean, I didn't come out to my family until '85, '86. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and what was that like? Gordon George: It was in a fit of rage. Toby Jenkins: Okay, tell us a little bit about that. Gordon George: I had been to- I was living in Oklahoma City at the time. I went home for Christmas and my brother was there, and we didn't get along, and my mother kept harping at me, why don't you get along with your brother? Why don't you get along with your brother? You need to do this, do that. Gordon George: And that's the first time I told my mother to shut up. I'd had enough. Packed my bags and left. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So- and that's when- later that spring is when I came out to my family. Toby Jenkins: Okay, the whole family, or just your parents, or your mom, or? Gordon George: My mom and sister. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and how did they handle that? Gordon George: Better than I thought. Mother and I became good friends after that. When I moved to Oklahoma City and then moved back to Tulsa, she would go to the bars with me, and yeah, we would- and there were times we would- just the two of us would go out and have drinks. Sit and talk for hours. 'Cause she lived with me for a while too. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So did she enjoy hanging around with your friends and going to theGordon George: Oh yeah, she was good. She was okay with it, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. 13 �Gordon George: When I was also involved in the Tulsa AIDS Task Force. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so that's what's going on. Gordon George: And we would do barbecues and stuff. We had a big barbecue out at Inola and they supplied the beef for it. They had a calf slaughtered andToby Jenkins: Oh, a family in Inola did it, or? Gordon George: No, my family. Toby Jenkins: Oh, your parents? Oh wonderful. Gordon George: They provided the beef. Toby Jenkins: And so it was a fundraiser for? Gordon George: Tulsa AIDS Task Force. Toby Jenkins: Okay. That's the first time I've heard that name. Dennis Neill: That was a group that the United Way and Community Service Council had pulled together. All the conveners that met, and then eventually it's been off to Tulsa Cares. Does that sound right? Gordon George: I couldn't tell you. Toby Jenkins: But it's called the Tulsa AIDS Task Force? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. We were the fundraisers for them. Toby Jenkins: For the programs for people living with HIV AIDS? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and that would've been mid-80s? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And by then, apparently, your family was supporting you, your parents, especially if they were going to gay clubs with you and donating beef for a cookout. Do you remember the first time you heard about AIDS? Gordon George: I had seen it on the news, but I didn't know. I had a friend that asked me to get involved with the task force to help with the fundraising. Toby Jenkins: Did you know people in those early days, who had AIDS and were dying? Or do you rememberGordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: With the church, I was on the RAIN team. 14 �Toby Jenkins: At Metropolitan Community Church, they're a RAIN team? And what did a RAIN team do? Gordon George: We went to support families and patients with HIV. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And I've seen too many die, so I had to quit doing it. It was too rough. Toby Jenkins: When you say too many died, like there were five or six people that died, or was there dozens, or what was it like forGordon George: That I was involved with, it was probably four or five. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And then, I had a personal friend that became ill. Toby Jenkins: And so what was that like in those days? You found out your friends had AIDS. What were your thoughts? Tell us what that was like in those days. Gordon George: It was bad. It was tough, especially the friend that I- I was working fulltime. He needed help. And I quit my job. Spent the last couple months of his life helping him. So and that was really bad, really tough. Toby Jenkins: And just took care of him? Gordon George: He went to- well, part of the fundraising that I had helped with, we give, if I remember right, about $10,000 to- I can't think of the name of it, Catholic Charities. They're home forToby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And he's actuallyToby Jenkins: St. Joseph's ... . Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: That was a hospice care center. Gordon George: Right. And that's where he was at, when he died. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So- and I was- it made me feel good that I would help raise the money to help support their organization, and they helped him. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So yeah, it was tough. And he was saying that, why he was- talking about why he was on earth. And I said, "Part of it was because you could be my friend." And that was tough. And I was with him when he took his last breath. So his mother and I were with him. 15 �Toby Jenkins: So in those days, people were finding- they would find out they were ill. I mean, would they go to the doctor because they were feeling bad, or because they were being cautious? Gordon George: They'd go find out that they were ill. And when you found out you had HIV AIDS, there wasn't any kind of treatment plan that was keeping you alive longer in those early days. So people were gone pretty quick. Toby Jenkins: Or did people live with it for a while? Do you remember? Gordon George: Both. Toby Jenkins: Both? So some people lasted longer thanGordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And what was the general attitude of the community in those days, like in the gay bars, did people act different with their behavior? Did they shun or isolate people once they found out they were sick, or were people being cautious or being careful not to spread it? Gordon George: They weren't as careful as they should've beenToby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: - back then. 'Cause it really hadn't hit home so much here in Oklahoma like it was on major metropolitan areas. So- but once it really got a hold here, people were thinking, oh, yeah, we need to be more careful and actually more responsive as far as fundraising, so…I met a lot of people during the fundraising, people that cared. Toby Jenkins: People outside the gay community, or justGordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: The Perigos were one of them [Jerry and Peggy Perigo]. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Yeah. Perigo family? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Who [Jerry Perigo] was the judge here in town. So this would have all been during the 80s, right? Gordon George: Right. 16 �Toby Jenkins: So you were involved with the Tulsa AIDS Task Force, and a part of RAIN, which was a care team associated with your church. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: That provided care for people living with HIV AIDS. When did you begin to- did you start- were you still working at Southwest Bell? You said you quit your job to take care of your friend. Gordon George: Oh, no. I had left Southwestern Bell before that. I left Southwestern Bell in '85. Toby Jenkins: Okay. When did you- I know you're doing the work with the AIDS Task Force, what about relationships? Did you have a partner during those days? Did you haveGordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you just kinda hung out with the group? Gordon George: Right. Yeah. I didn't- yeah. It was not a pleasant time after I left Bell, and 'cause I did an odd job kinda things and wound up declaring bankruptcy and had to start all over. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So in the fundraising part, did you ever get involved with the quilts, the NAMES project, the AIDS quilts? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. But you were aware thatGordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Yeah. I had seen it, but I wasn't involved in any of the organization part of it. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever participate in the annual follies that were big fundraisers for the HIV AIDS causes? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Big performance shows. Okay. When did you begin to get involved with TOHR? Did I ask if you ever went to any of the pride picnics, or the pride parades? Did you ever get involved with any of that? Gordon George: No. I didn't get involved until, what was it, '91, '92, maybe. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And it was when I was attending your church organization. That's when I got involved. 17 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah, that would've been later. That would have been about 1999 something. Gordon George: Was it that late? Toby Jenkins: Yeah. AndGordon George: Oh, okay. '99. Toby Jenkins: You're talking aboutGordon George: Yeah, '99. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, you're talking about the Ekklesia group? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Which is a group for recovering evangelicals and who- wasn't really a church. It was kind of a Christian support group. And it would meet at the center, the TOHR center, which was in Highland Park. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: So that's where you've began to get involved and started volunteering with the organization. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Do you… I know that at one year, you received 'Volunteer of the year' from TOHR- probably Oklahomans for Equality by then. And why were you given that award? Do you remember? Gordon George: For the help of working here on the building. Toby Jenkins: Yep. Gordon George: And doing…I got even the very first Thanksgiving dinner we had here I helped with. I wasn't in charge of it at that time, but I helped with it. So- and Kristi Freeman I think was ... Toby Jenkins: Kristi Freeman? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Who was on the board. Gordon George: Yeah, I helped her and then one year when Nancy McDonald helped with it andToby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And then after that's when I actually started conducting it all. 18 �Toby Jenkins: So I know that you were very involved with the organization when they bought the building. And you're talking about, for a year we spent renovating. And Christy Frisbee, Sue Welch and some of those folks led some of the- we did it ourselves. Our gay boys were designers and our girls were good with power tools. So we were a perfect match and we did it ourselves, didn't we? You have to. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And so you spent some time down hereGordon George: Hanging sheet rock and that kinda stuff, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, ripping up carpet and pushing up old tile. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And we were proud to have it, weren't we? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So you had been in Tulsa for a while. So you'd kind of saw an evolution where we had had smaller centers, that were kinda tucked into hidden places. All of a sudden we were right downtown. Yeah. I know that you also were very involved every time we had the big dances and the big events. Toby Jenkins: You always were in charge of the kitchen and the refreshments and for the fall-a-law ball. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And the Wild Hearts ball and volunteered at the Equality Gala. So you were very helpful and a very good organizer, especially when it came to setting things up and food service. So you talked about- you got involved with the Thanksgiving dinner. Can you kinda remember some details why we did that, why we had it? Gordon George: It was for people that didn't have families to go to. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and why would they not have had families to go to? Gordon George: A lot of their families disowned them. Toby Jenkins: Right. Gordon George: And I was fortunate enough, my family didn't disown me. Toby Jenkins: Right. And it was on- what day did we do it? Gordon George: Usually Thanksgiving Day. Toby Jenkins: And did you have to cook all the food or where did the food come from? Gordon George: A lot of the food was donated, but there was a couple times that I cooked the turkeys. 19 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Right. Gordon George: And I was- back on those days I thought I wouldn't do it today. Toby Jenkins: And so now, for anybody who's familiar with the Equality Center today, we have a commercial kitchen. But in those days ... Gordon George: Oh, no. Toby Jenkins: - we had the kitchen that we put together ourselves. Gordon George: Tiny hole-in-the-wall kitchen. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And you'd have to serve hundreds of people ... . Okay. Gordon George: I think the most we served was 225. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so we talked about this. So we worked with the faith communities that were inclusive and welcoming. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And they kinda sponsored and would provide all the food. So it was like a massive potluck dinner and you had to coordinate all that. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And that was all served on Thanksgiving Day. But the food started coming in when? Gordon George: The day before, or ... Toby Jenkins: A couple of days. Yeah. Gordon George: Depends on the organization. Toby Jenkins: And you all would be back there preparing turkeys and hams and ... Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So- and we not only served people on Thanksgiving Day, we provided to-go meals for people who ... Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: You could call down here and we'd deliver those to you. About how many faith communities were involved, do you remember? Gordon George: Oh, eight, ten maybe. Toby Jenkins: Yeah? Gordon George: Somewhere around there. I don't remember for sure. 20 �Toby Jenkins: Do you remember the year of Muslims for Mercy or the- they were compassionate Muslims. They provided the turkey and it was seasoned with the Middle Eastern flavor. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Okay, so ... Gordon George: That's when I quit cooking turkeys after that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. But- so we did that, and it was called 'Come Home for the Holidays'. And we'd have a huge turnout. Transgender people who were not allowed to go home and present to their family as they identified. Gay couples who- they might be able to go home but they couldn't bring their boyfriend or their girlfriend home. And then it got to where entire families just came out to show support. And about how many people would help you work on that event. Gordon George: Oh, 15 maybe or 20, depends. Toby Jenkins: And then on Thanksgiving morning, how many people to get it all ready to go? Gordon George: Usually maybe 8 to 10. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Including my family. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, now tell us about how you got your family, talked into helping with this. Gordon George: I don't remember other than, I was involved with it and I wasn't going to their place. And at that point, my mother had died. So it was- can't go home. Home was changed. So we- I volunteered to keep- from thinking about Thanksgiving at home is no longerToby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And so they would come here. My dad and my sister and brother-inlaw and my nieces and nephews andToby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: They would all come. At one point, all came involved. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, your brother and his wife. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And their children, and yeah. Gordon George: Yeah. My brother, when he was alive, he was here when he could. And they lived in Collinsville. So it wasn't- it was easier for them to come and help. 21 �Toby Jenkins: But your sister was coming from where? Gordon George: Near Kansas City. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And it became a thing for over a decade. Gordon George: Yeah. Until COVID. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: COVID put an end to it. Toby Jenkins: So I know you volunteered with the Equality Gala. Did you volunteer at Pride too? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. I helped in the treasury departments. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Counted tickets and counted tickets. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. And that you were always available to help for just so many things that we were doing. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: I know today you're pretty involved in the Oklahomans for Equality's program for senior adults. Do you remember when you began to get involved with that? Originally, I think we called it SAGE butGordon George: I don't remember. It was when we were a smaller group and it was before the remodeling of the event center and the kitchen. It was before that that I was involved with SAGE when we met in the great hall. Toby Jenkins: So about 13, 14 years ago. Gordon George: I don't know. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Too many years ago to think about. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And what was your reason for being involved with that? Gordon George: It was an outreach for being around gay people that were my age. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And much like the work you did with RAIN team and AIDS over the years, we've lost a lot of people who were involved in that program. Many, many, many people. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Tell us some of the things that SAGE would do. Like, did we go see people, check on people? 22 �Gordon George: I wasn't involved in a lot of that. I would just come during the day 'cause of the hours that I worked in the company that I was working for. I worked a lot of nights. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: So I didn't get to attend SAGE as much as I do now. Toby Jenkins: So I know- I wanna bring this up. I know you worked for companies and you understood they had corporate support for non-profits and you were able to get them to support- work here at the Equality Center. Gordon George: Right, they made a donation to us. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Was it Thanksgiving they would sponsor or was it the SAGE program ... Gordon George: No, it was ... - now that you mention it, I don't remember. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: I know they- it was during- it was closer to the holidays, yeah, so. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yep. So you understood the value of getting corporate support. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And they were willing to do it, weren't they, that company? Gordon George: Right. And I think that was- it happened a lot, when they had to do some diversity training because of the way I was treated at work. Toby Jenkins: Right. Gordon George: Particularly one, there are two people out there that were hateful. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And so, they had diversity training and I think that was what brought it out, that they give us money. Or even some of the people who were not happy, that they give the money to us, here. But they had to get over it. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So that's interesting because presently in 2026, companies, anybody who does any kind of diversity, inclusion or equity or equality efforts, DEI as we call it, that's supposed, now companies are afraid to do that. And of course the administration in the White House has labeled that as woke and bad, and universities, and public institutions, and publicly funded institutions. And we've seen corporations step back from that for fear of retribution. But you knew why diversity training was important personally, because you had experienced discrimination in the workplace? Gordon George: Right, right. Toby Jenkins: And then your company23 �Gordon George: Put a stop to it. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And said, we need to do more to make sure all of our LGBT employees feel valued. Gordon George: Yeah. And I wasn't the only one at that point. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: There was others that came out. And it wasn't just the level that I was at as far as an employee, there was even higher up. I mean one of the chemists came out. And so, it wasn't just a lowly production worker, so. And there were several. Toby Jenkins: Now just out of curiosity, you've told us your age. You had saw things change, hadn't you, in Oklahoma from when you first got to Tulsa? I know we've talked a lot about your time in Tulsa, so if I've corrected this, you've been here about 45 years in the Tulsa area. I think maybe there were some times you moved away and came back, is-you saw a lot of changes, especially for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and all the different letters of the acronym that we use for the gay community. There's been a lot of changes. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Right. Do you feel like, from the early days, where your life was pretty private work and gay bars were the dark, private places where we hid away from the general community, we couldn't walk down the street holding hands, we did have pride parades. Do you feel like Tulsa changed and became better? Gordon George: Yes, it improved. It was slow, but it kept improving to the point where it was more comfortable to be out, and OkEq was a big part of that for me to be comfortable on being out. The community was getting more involved. The city itself was becoming more involved. Toby Jenkins: The proclamations of Gay Day in the city and the mayor's backing on some things. Like naming the street Pride Street. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: So- and even to the point, where they named one of the streets of a deceased police officer that was a lesbian. Toby Jenkins: Jennifer Mansell. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Absolutely. Who was on the Tulsa Police Department and had named a street. That was an incredible day. I remember that. That was our first openly gay person to be her and her wife, who was a Wagner County treasurer, so… 24 �Gordon George: Yeah. And so it really improved a lot in those years until who got in the White House and things. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And who in the White House? Gordon George: Trump. Toby Jenkins: Right. Gordon George: Donald J. Trump. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So it's safe to say that whoever we put in the White House, that impacts all of us. Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: It changes our world. Gordon George: Especially when they're negative. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So you saw things improve, and do you think it was because of the visibility? I know Oklahomans for Equality was doing lots of advocacy work, but do you feel like some of it might have been because of the visibility of LGBTQ people, then being more visible and open and out at work and faith communities changing their positions? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: I mean, when you came to Tulsa, MCC was the only church that had an official mission and dedicated to the LGBT community. There were congregations like 'All Souls' and some other churches that may have been supportive of the community, but even they had not come out with an official policy. You saw that all change where faith communities helped support the Thanksgiving meals and also were a part of the pride parades and were sponsors of the Equality Gala, so. Gordon George: And it continued to grow. The pride parades just kept growing and growing, and more of the community of Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Corporations and companies proud to be a part of it. Yeah. So I haven't asked this to anybody else, and I just thought I was gonna- I'm gonna ask this to somebody who's kinda saw things change. Why do you think we have so few gay bars? Because when you first came to Tulsa, there were lots of gay bars. Gordon George: There was. Toby Jenkins: And we now just have just a few left. I think at the time of this interview, I only know of two, Majestic and Eagle, and then I guess Yellow Brick Road probably identifies this. But why do you think things have changed there? 25 �Gordon George: I don't know. I wonder that myself. Why it's- especially as an older adult there's not a whole lot of places that I would go that I would feel comfortable, as a gay bar. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: The Eagle, but I'm not so much into leather and- I'm not so much into going to the bars now, anyway. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So. Toby Jenkins: Do you think social media and used to, if you wanted a date, you had to go find 'em, right? Gordon George: Uh-huh. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And the places you found them was at the clubs. And you might meet people at work, but you were afraid to tell somebody at work for fear you're barking up the wrong tree. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Do you feel like the social media, the dating websites, the mobile apps, the hookup apps. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Do you feel like that has changed the way we connect and meet people? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Definitely. Yeah, it was easier to get online and you still had to wonder, okay, is it safe to meet this person or not? Are they gonna beat the hell out of me when I get there? That kinda thing. But social media made a big difference. I don't know if it's so much that- well, I think it's still even more now why the attendance to gay bars is down. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: It's because of social media, people doing- hooking up online. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you have lived long enough to see things change. You've seen things improve. But you've also saw us having to refight the fightGordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: - for stuff that we fought for. Gordon George: That's ongoing now. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. 26 �Gordon George: All the time, trying to protect the privileges and the rights that we got that they keep trying to roll back. Toby Jenkins: Right. Gordon George: And it's an ongoing battle. Toby Jenkins: Now, as you live your life, you're retired. And I know that you do a lot of volunteer work. So let's talk a little bit about that. And while we talk about that, I wanna know what your experience is. So I notice, let's start with you're branded today. And what is that? Gordon George: It's the ambassador program at the airport. Toby Jenkins: Tulsa International Airport. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And they are a great organization to volunteer for. And they take care of us quite well. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: They feed us multiple times a year. They're feeding us next month. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: The luncheon. Toby Jenkins: So they do a lot of volunteer appreciation? Gordon George: Oh, yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And so today, that we're doing, this is a Tuesday. Did you volunteer today at the airport? Gordon George: Yes, 06:00 AM. Toby Jenkins: Had to be there at 06:00 AM? Gordon George: To 09:00, three hour shifts. Toby Jenkins: And so what do you do? Park planes? Do you scrub planes? What do you do? Gordon George: Well, basically, we just direct traffic for passengers. Toby Jenkins: Oh, okay. Gordon George: Where's the nearest restroom? How do I get through TSA? Where do I take my luggage? That kinda thing. 27 �Toby Jenkins: So you're at an information booth, or? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay, alright. Gordon George: Or, as I'm what they call a roamer, which allows me to go in. I can go out on either concourse, A and B, and assist people out there, or assist people getting through TSA. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And what is that experience like? Do you enjoy it? Gordon George: I love it. Toby Jenkins: Do you? Gordon George: It's a great place to people watch. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: A lot of eye candy. Toby Jenkins: A lot of hot, attractive men, okay. Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Well, now we know why you do it. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So you do that how many times a week? Gordon George: I do twice a week, every other week. And then, sometimes on the fifth week of the month, I'll do extra. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, like holiday time, during holiday? Gordon George: I have done holiday extra. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. Do they know you're gay? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And do they treat you differently? Or do theyGordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: So do any of you other volunteers say, "Hey, Gordon, do you see that attractive man? Look at that." Gordon George: Oh, the straight women that we talk about. 28 �Toby Jenkins: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so. Everybody's looking, right? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. How wonderful. And I wanna thank you, on behalf of our community, for being there at the airport. I know that can't be real easy. Okay, so you do that. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you volunteer at the Tulsa International Airport in the ambassador program. What else do you volunteer with? Gordon George: I help distribute Meals on Wheels. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: I work in the distribution center to help pack the packages that drivers take. I help with that. And then, I also do driving. Toby Jenkins: So you have to drive? Gordon George: The delivery, yes. Toby Jenkins: Yes. And do you enjoy that? Gordon George: That's one day a week. Most of the time. Toby Jenkins: Yeah? And you have to do that regardless of the weather, right? Gordon George: No, they shut us down. The recent weather that we've had? Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: They shut us down. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, but in the middle of a hot summerGordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: - or pouring down rain, you'll still have to do it. Gordon George: Right, right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And would you encourage people to be a part of that program? Do they need more volunteers? Gordon George: They always need volunteers. Toby Jenkins: Okay. What else do you volunteer with? Gordon George: I volunteer with the SAGE group here. Of course, I do that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, with the seniors program here. Gordon George: Yeah. And I usher at the PAC in Broken Arrow. 29 �Toby Jenkins: And that's a volunteer position? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And what do you do there? Gordon George: Just as an usher. Toby Jenkins: Okay, andGordon George: Directing people to their seats. Toby Jenkins: - you don't get paid? You're just doing it? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Now, what would be the perks of that? Gordon George: You get to see the shows. Toby Jenkins: So where else is it you volunteer at? We were talking about the Broken Arrow PAC. Gordon George: Oh, so…I just lost my thought. Toby Jenkins: Well, let's talk a little bit about that cause I think we got cut off a little. So you're a volunteer over there. What are the perks about volunteering as an usher at the Broken Arrow Performing Arts Center? Gordon George: Well, I got to see Lily Tomlin. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And recently was Sandy Patty. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And other productions. Toby Jenkins: Have you ever been there when KristenChenoweth was there? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. Our only- our little hero we had. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So that's- would you encourage people to volunteer as ushers at the Performing Arts Center? Gordon George: Right, and they take very little of your time. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: I mean it's not even once a month. 30 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: 'Cause they have quite a few volunteers, 'cause they will take volunteers any time. Toby Jenkins: Okay. You volunteer still here at the Equality Center. Anything else you volunteer at? Gordon George: Life Senior Services. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and what do you do with them? Gordon George: I mainly just help at their major fundraisers. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: I help when they do those. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And tell us a little bit, what is Life Senior Services? Gordon George: It supports adult seniors, and they do so much in the community. They provide housing, they provide daycare for seniors. They don't call it daycare, it's something else. Toby Jenkins: Drop-in? Gordon George: Yeah, where people that can go- they have all kinds of classes. They haveToby Jenkins: Fitness center. Gordon George: Dancing, yeah, all the- bunch of stuff that they do. Toby Jenkins: They help you with your taxes. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Help you navigate Medicare and finding the right insurance. Gordon George: Right. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So do you enjoy volunteering with Life Senior Services? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Do they know you're gay? Gordon George: Well, I would think so. Toby Jenkins: Okay. But you always feel welcome there? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Very good. 31 �Gordon George: Not a problem. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you- I'll say this as a PSA. What you're doing by volunteering and serving our community, the whole community, that does more to help us make sure that we create an inclusive community for LGBTQ people because we're visible and we're helping out where it's needed, instead of silo-ing ourself and isolating ourself. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: That's my PSA. Do you find that to be true? Gordon George: Yes, and we have several with the senior group here that also are ambassadors. Toby Jenkins: Okay. That do the volunteer programs? Gordon George: Mm-hmm, that do this. Toby Jenkins: Oh, cool, very cool. So let's think about, an archeologist uncovers these archives in a 100 years and he's gonna look at your interview and what message do you want to give to those who come after us. Or maybe young people today who just are not sure how all this came to be. They just think it's always been like this. What would be your message to the future and to people? Young people today about what would you message would you give them? Gordon George: They have privileges that older people have worked for to appreciate those privileges and to work on keeping those privileges and to help support the LGBTQ community and get involved, stay involved. And keep working, 'cause it's never- it's gonna be an uphill battle no matter how long it's gonna be. 'Cause you're always gonna have people that don't like our community and it's gonna be an uphill, ongoing battle. Toby Jenkins: Alright. Gordon George: And keep doing it. Keep the battle going. Toby Jenkins: Anything else? Gordon George: No, I don't think so. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dennis Neill, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality and Toby Jenkins, we've been present for this interview. We conclude our interview with Gordon George, affectionately known as GG around Oklahomans for Equality. Toby Jenkins: Thank you for tuning in for this broadcast. Gordon George: I appreciate it. Thank you. 32 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Gordon George Interview Description An account of the resource In this conversation, Gordon George shares his life story, detailing his experiences growing up in Kansas, moving to Tulsa, and discovering his identity as a gay man. He reflects on the challenges he faced in school, his involvement in the LGBTQ community, and the impact of the AIDS crisis. Gordon discusses his journey of coming out to his family, the importance of volunteering, and the progress of LGBTQ rights over the years. He emphasizes the need for continued activism and support for future generations. Subject The topic of the resource Gordon George Oral History Project from February 3, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gordon George, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 3, 2026 2026 AIDS AIDS/HIV Gordon George HIV/AIDs interview OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Toby Jenkins transcript video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/cb45fd2c080c696f642bbf3a4ec34ca2.mp4 5200eb31f5519513b3b1c578c0a4b556 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/0a9ad56686aff1c861791cbd6e559964.pdf 9f05611ad7684b1eccd5aa7a33466e4d PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Jeremy Simmons Interview Conducted by Dennis Neill Date: January 21, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, February 26, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Jeremy Simmons Keywords Jeremy Simmons, LGBTQ+, sexual orientation, HIV awareness, community advocacy, personal identity, religious background, nonprofit management, Tulsa, equality Takeaways  Jeremy grew up in a conservative, religious environment.  He navigated his sexual identity amidst societal expectations.  Experiences of bullying shaped his understanding of acceptance.  He identifies as more attracted to men but has explored bisexuality.  Performance art has been a form of self-expression for him.  Community engagement has been a significant part of his life.  He has worked with various organizations for HIV awareness.  Transitioning from OKQ to HOPE was a pivotal moment in his career.  Nonprofit management presents unique challenges and opportunities.  He believes in the potential for positive change in the community. Summary In this interview, Jeremy Simmons shares his journey of self-discovery and advocacy within the LGBTQ+ community. Growing up in a conservative, religious environment, he navigated the complexities of his sexual identity while facing societal expectations and bullying. His experiences shaped his commitment to community engagement and HIV awareness, leading to significant roles in various organizations. Jeremy reflects on the challenges of nonprofit management and expresses hope for the future of the LGBTQ+ community, emphasizing the importance of continued advocacy and support. 2 �Chapters 00:00 Jeremy Simmons Oral History Interview January 22, 2026 01:24:24 Introduction and Early Life 01:27:21 Religious Background and Identity 01:30:25 Navigating Sexual Orientation in Adolescence 01:33:35 Experiences of Bullying and Acceptance 01:36:31 Understanding Bisexuality and Self-Identification 01:39:24 Relationships and Social Circles 01:42:27 Coming Out and Community Engagement 01:45:21 Work History and Involvement with Equality Center 01:48:09 HIV Testing and Support Services 01:51:19 Challenges in Healthcare Access 01:54:15 Personal Experiences with HIV and Community Support 02:03:57 The Evolution of HIV Treatment and Public Perception 02:08:30 Community Outreach and Testing Initiatives 02:13:33 Navigating Funding Challenges in Nonprofits 02:20:23 The Impact of Government Regulations on Nonprofits 02:25:31 The Journey of Hope: From Formation to Growth 02:32:55 Reflections on Personal Growth and Community Engagement 02:40:16 Advocacy and the Changing Landscape of LGBTQ+ Rights 02:47:42 Looking Forward: Optimism for the Future Jeremy Simmons Oral History Interview January 21, 2026 Dennis Neill: Good afternoon. It is January, the 21st, 2026, and we're in the Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library at the Equality Center and we're having the opportunity to interview Jeremy Simmons. And Jeremy, would you state your name and give us some basic biographical information, like your birthday, your early growing up experiences, a little bit of your family background that you might want to share and your early education? Jeremy Simmons: Sure, Jeremy Simmons, I grew up in and around Bartlesville, so Washington County, so in the city of Bartlesville and it's, and in very small places like around Ramona and Tulala, like so in the middle of nowhere. At one point we had a 3 �house. It was like a half a mile away from anybody, so remote for some of that. I was born a long time ago and I'm much older now and I moved to Tulsa in 94 and that's where I've lived here over half my life and because it's been so long and like all of my adult life, I think of Tulsa as my home now. Dennis Neill: And where'd you do your elementary and high school work? Jeremy Simmons: That's a great question. I did it in different, at Caney Valley in Bartlesville, where the two schools that I was in and Wesleyan religious school at the beginningDennis Neill: is that the one in Bartlesville? Jeremy Simmons: Yes Dennis Neill: What year did you graduate from high school? Jeremy Simmons: Sometime in the 90s, and they have 56 peopleDennis Neill: Did you go immediately on to post-secondary? Jeremy Simmons: Not right away. I spent a little time at Tulsa Community College trying to sort of know what I wanted to do, and then I went to the University of Tulsa later in the 90s. I have an associate's degree in humanities from TCC and I had worked on a sociology degree that I did not complete. Dennis Neill: Okay, great, great, anything else that you can share with us about your family background, like siblings or other information you want to share about? Jeremy Simmons: So my life before I moved here was quite different and I don't really like to dig super deep into it. Just to be honest with you. I feel comfortable saying I grew up in extremely isolated rural areas, pretty religious background, as you can imagine. I did pre-k, kindergarten and first grade at the Wesleyan school, which is quite traditional conservative. So, coming from that background, although the interesting thing about it was kind of interesting going to the Weslyan School, I was surrounded by people from different countries and different races and nationalities, so then going to smaller schools and being not around that was sometimes more conservative, honestly, being in the public schools in a small town. Dennis Neill: Talk a little bit more about your early religious experience and how that's evolved over time. Any intersection with how you identify from a sexual orientation? Jeremy Simmons: Oh, that's a great question. So for me, in the way that I grew up, so all of my family was very religious and most of the people in my area were just very religious. So religion just dominated everything. And at one point for many years, next to a Southern Baptist Church, it was this like the second biggest building in town after the school. So it makes quite an impression. I was very Christian in a very traditional conservative way because I thought that that was there wasn't really any thought about it. It's like when you grow up in rural spaces a lot of times it's just like, everybody thinks that abortion is wrong and 4 �everybody thinks that homosexuality is wrong and everybody supports the troops and it's like they're sort of a far-right cultural line that blends with the religion and you just like 80- 90% of the people feel that way, or they pretend to. Yeah, so when I was quite young I was actually fairly conservative, which, looking back, it's kind of like okay, but then it's just kind of hard to integrate that old life with who I was later. But I also started making out with boys when I was a very young. Dennis Neill: Do you mind sharing what age you're talking about? Jeremy Simmons: Definitely by sixth grade, maybe by fifth grade range, roughly so. So even though everybody was far right religious, there was same-sex stuff and drinking. There were things that always happened. They were just very underground. You just had to be very, very careful about them, right? Dennis Neill: In that period, were you also trying to deal and date the opposite sex while you were in junior high, high school? How did you kind of blend those thoughts with your other aspects of your peers? Jeremy Simmons: That's another really great question and it's so hard to put into words. So, without, especially without doing like getting into psychobabble language, but cognitive dissonance is definitely a thing. I viewed myself as heterosexual and so I had girlfriends, but I didn't want to have sex with any of them and I did want to have sex with men and so, but it got to a certain point. as you get older, I think it's harder to even be gay undercover in some of those situations. I stopped doing anything with boys by probably 14, 15, definitely 16.. I remember by the time we were all driving age for sure, , like none of us were doing that anymore. It was considered like something that you just did as a kid and didn't talk about it anymore. So I just thought I genuinely thought for a while that if I just kept giving it a try, I'd meet the right girl. That's where my head was with all that. Dennis Neill: And did you go to like the proms or the other school events like that with… Jeremy Simmons: Very weirdly, yeah, I know, it was like when I talk to people who grew up, they want to talk to people my age or older. I come across a lot of parallels, or even younger people who grew up in rural areas still like who grew up 10, 20 years later than me. They're like: oh yeah, I mean, you've had to have a girlfriend. That was just a part of it. So also to, I was also kind of smaller. I wasn't super athletic. Not getting picked on meant being conservative and being straight and doing certain things. Dennis Neill: So did you have bullying experiences? Jeremy Simmons: Oh sure Dennis Neill: Over what reasons? Or what characteristics? Jeremy Simmons: I mean sometimes I would get called a faggot or or a sissy or whatever, something that, some type of equivalent of that. Some of that was 5 �probably more intentionally directed. And then some of it is just things that people say that are hurtful, like, if someone's slightly effeminate or smaller framed. They're gonna be compared to being girlish, separate from their gender identity or sexuality. I think it's just a jab, right, it's something that could be hurtful. And then some of it felt like more directed. I remember there was a lot of different experiences. Sometimes a lot of kids that were like one to three years older than us and that kind of range would try and isolate us and pick on us, and there was a one time where some older kids may just take our clothes off and I thought something like sexual assault was going to happen and it didn't, fortunately. That was one of the weirder things, but that's one of those things that happens when you get a bunch of other kids that are all supposed to be straight and hyper conservative. Dennis Neill: Were there any of these peers as you're growing up through high school that were more clearly out and comfortable with their different sexual orientations? Jeremy Simmons: No, not so. It depends on where. Probably in Bartlesville, but I didn't go to school there- very much, I think, and definitely not in the Weslyan school. Like you literally couldn't be gay and be at the Weslyan school, like that's a part of their rules. So it's like that wouldn't have been it, there wouldn't have been an option. At that time they only had school up through sixth grade and I quit before then. There are probably kids that that, looking back on it, seemed more effeminate or seem more physically intimate with the same-sex. That might have been something, but when you're young enough, that's all, that's okay. , there's a certain level like there's a little bit of bullying. But unless it gets like, unless you get really affectionate or something , like a little bit of that's okay. It's whenyou get into junior high kind of…Sixth grade and up is when I think people really start having more expectations. That was my experience anyway, and so everything started to get more codified, going to the dances and having regular girlfriends, you are serious enough to change exchange class rings, like there are certain rituals. It's like you needed to participate, and it was much easier for you if you did participate in that. So to not participate in that, even if you were straight and cisgendered and healthy, like, even if you were able, but like even if you didn't have a lot of bullying potential, if you removed yourself from the heterosexual norms, you definitely made yourself a target, so you had to either be- and some kids could do it. I remember the few people that did it- they had to have like a schtick, like they had to be the stoner with the motorcycle or something, like they had to have something, like you could be a black sheep in some, in some ways, but you couldn't just be like, oh, I'm just not gonna date me, buddy, right? Dennis Neill: Talk a little bit more about the process of when you finally decided what your orientation was, and how do you identify now that kind of that path that you followed in getting comfortable with how you currently identify? Jeremy Simmons: Right after high school, I decided that I was bisexual and I actually had sex with women, but very little and I didn't hate it. So bisexuality is somewhat applicable to me, I feel, but it was definitely for me. 6 �It was more of a transitional phase, and I hate saying that because a lot of people sort of pigeonhole bisexuality in general as that, and I very much don't feel that way. There's definitely bisexuality and pansexuality and all the other things are valid for me. I'm just very strongly attracted to other men. I had one girlfriend that was just like you're just not that into this, you just need to be gay. I spent two semesters briefly in Stillwater. I always forget about that in interviews and I was not very successful at school there because I was just interested in figuring out my sexuality and drinking, and doing whatever, so that actually I always forget that part that played. But even though it was just a couple of semesters, it played a huge role in my development because that's because I don't think I would have been able to be bisexual in Bartlesville or Ramona or wherever Copan, anywhere else around there. I mean like none of those places would have tolerated that. At the time in the 90s, I think a lot of people thought that that was just a bullshit thing, even amongst gay people and straight people. I think a lot of people were like, oh, there's just two genders and everybody's either straight or very gay. Everything seemed very bipolar in the 90s. You were just like: I'm this or that. Dennis Neill: Have you ever been married? Jeremy Simmons: No. Dennis Neill: What about any significant long-term relationships that you want to share. Jeremy Simmons: I dated a guy named Robert who's still saved in my phone as bastard ex-boyfriend for a couple of years in the 90s. He's actually a very dear friend. Once we figured out that we were supposed to be friends, everything was great. Um, that's my longest relationship. So when you asked earlier how I identify myself, I try not to do a lot of labels. I just I find it kind of constraining and tedious and then even when you get, even when you pick a label, then five years from now, like the culture and the language is going to change. It just seems like, oh, I'm just human. But the question is very valid, because I am much more into men than women. I feel comfortable as a male, and have always been perceived as more male than female. I feel like it's important to state this is where I come from, this is what I am. But I've had fun dressing up as women. I won by comp, by by crowd vote, at an 80s prom with the full canes. I won prom queen dressed up as Annie Lennox one year. So it's like I'm not really a drag queen all the time, but I feel very comfortable being, I felt comfortable being intimate with women. I feel comfortable being in women's clothes. But I feel more comfortable as a man and more comfortable being with other men. Dennis Neill: Do you consider your drag experience like performance art when you've been on stage, or have you actually been on stage? Jeremy Simmons: Nnot in a traditional way where I would get tips, no, It's been fun, something I've done a handful of times successfully and it was very interesting. 7 �To explain more about me to- I am a little bit of an experience junkie, so I like to fully understand things by immersing myself in them, without doing something like going really hardcore, then I don't feel like I've understood something. But a lot of times I'll do something like dress up in drag. I also was on stage for an S&M ball that my friends did and it's very fun, it's very engaging, but then I'm like: got it done, so, and I don't really know how to put that into words when it comes to…when you talk about sexual identity, because some people like, well, you're a sex addict and I was like absolutely not, like I haven't had sex since before COVID. Sexual sex is very low priority for me, right, but asexuality also doesn't feel right. It's like I say one thing and somebody's always like: oh, so you're asexual and I'm like: no, like I'm physically capable of having sex and I'm interested in maybe doing it again. , probably with a guy now in your network of friends. I have a huge network of friends. So that's one of the nice things about not dating or not having kids: it gives you a lot of time to follow personal interests and develop friend networks. So, yes, I have tons of friends here and I never have enough time to keep up with all of them, which is lovely. I have some that are much closer, but I don't know, when I was younger it was much more important for me to identify as gay and I think because- but I think a part of that was because I was told that that was wrong and because it was so much harder to do that in the 90s- be openly gay, especially if you were young and didn't have a ton of money. I think for people who have a lot of money or people who live in certain cities, it's always been easier for anything . A lot of that identity stuff was very important to me then, and dating was very important to me. Then the 2000s hit, I just got less interested in it and so every now and then I'll date and it just seems to run its course faster and it's done. Dennis Neill: Did you immediately get acclimated to the gay and lesbian community, like through the bars or other social activities? Jeremy Simmons: Yeah, Dennis Neill: And what was kind of some of your first experiences, going out and socializing like locations? Jeremy Simmons: Yes,in the 80s and 90s at a certain point it was okay to go out to after-hours clubs and and whatever your age was, and then I think maybe 92 to 94 range, before I moved here, they changed the city, passed law saying that they couldn't do that anymore. When I was a baby, like I remember- I remember going to Icon that did after-hour stuff and I didn't have my driver's license yet, so I was probably 15 at the oldest. And while that wasn't a gay club, it was a very gay-friendly place. Yeah, I remember the name, but where is the location? It used to be on Peoria, Brookside proper, close to where, I think it was in or near where Sharkey's is right now. Dennis Neill: Okay, so it was on that side [east] of the street? 8 �Jeremy Simmons: Yep, on the east side, definitely. Because at one time there was also what, Concessions? Dennis Neill: Concessions was across the street, very close there. Jeremy Simmons: Icon was great. And it was definitely, for somebody who was trying to figure themselves out, being in an environment like rural Washington County, and then coming there where there were people dressed in drag, and there was goth people, and there was ravers, and there was weird old bikers, and people were doing drugs all over the place. And so that was a very different world. It was very interesting. It was very fun for me. I was very young, so I was a little too timid to get too involved with anything, but it was definitely fun to be a fly on the wall at that time. While I didn't grow up here, I do remember things from the 80s and earlier 90s from here, because I've always lived near Tulsa. I remember coming out to some of those spaces that were definitely gayadjacent. And like many other men my age, around that time, I went to the Toolbox before I was 21, and that's the bar, which is now the Eagle on 3rd. I don't remember when, but it would have been, I don't know, before I moved here in 94. Dennis Neill: Did you live on your own initially? Jeremy Simmons: I had roommates for quite a while. Dennis Neill: Gay, straight, mix, were they your roommates? Jeremy Simmons: I mainly lived with a straight couple at first, but a lot of the crew that I was in were kind of ambiguous. I fell in with a crew of people that were more in the rave scene. I think that they were, and they were doing, there were tons of drugs all the time. I remember that much. I think there was a little bit of like vague bisexuality, but most of them were straight. Dennis Neill: How about once you left the high school environment and went on for post-secondary and then up to today, have you personally experienced any discrimination and prejudice with regard to your sexual orientation or how people perceive your sexual orientation or close friends that have experienced that? Jeremy Simmons: Oh, sure. I've actually experienced fairly little. Well, I feel like it's fairly little. Sometimes when I describe my life story to people who grew up in other progressive places, they're like, Oklahoma sounds like a shithole. But I also, once I was here, I was just like, I'm gay if you don't like it, fuck off. I made a lot of decisions based off of being safe as a gay person. I do remember one of my first apartments that I lived in by myself on Riverside, the guy made me put down an extra deposit because he said that if I got sick from AIDS, it was something like that I was more of a risk. I was like, but I don't even have HIV. But he was like, no, you're welcome here. It's just anybody with health problems or anybody that's risky has to put down an extra $250 deposit, which was a lot of money at the time. And I thought that was weird. I still think it's weird looking back on it. I was originally an employee at the Equality Center and then Hope split off, but then we still worked with the Equality Center forever. I was here one time when a guy 9 �came in and broke a lamp in the hallway and said he was going to something, shoot everybody. I don't know. That would have been…It was when we were on Brookside, and so it would have been after 95, but not a lot after 95. Dennis Neill: Yeah, we were up in there from about 96 to about 99. Jeremy Simmons: I was going to say maybe 97, roughly. So again, when people ask me to do the dates, it's kind of hard because I have to pick anchor events. I don't remember years well. So I know that it was after we'd phased out the 42nd Street Clinic and integrated into there, and that's when we were becoming more public, as OkEq was becoming more public about being an LGBT center. I think that even at the beginning, even when we were doing stuff, there was an effort to kind of have a little bit of a vague gray umbrella around a lot of the language that we used. And then when that center started on Brookside, that just wasn't working anymore. It's like, this is where gay people are. Dennis Neill: So was that your first experience with TOHR, or when we had the location there at the 41st apartment, were you ever involved in that small space that we had with the hotline and a little community? Jeremy Simmons: Yeah, so like I said, I think in 95 I came there for services, and then in 96 I came back for services early and started volunteering there. I had a traditional day-hour job, I think, at the time, and they had night clinics Mondays and Thursdays, which I think they still do to this day. So I was volunteering on Monday or Thursday. One of the night clinics, once a week I would come in and volunteer a few hours. Yeah, and to refresh my memory, so we had the space there at like 39th and Harvard on the east side, where the HIV testing center was like at 42nd and Harvard on the west side. Dennis Neill: So were you volunteering there? Jeremy Simmons: The 42nd, yeah, the clinic. So it's like, yeah, you go just past 41st and Harvard, take the right end on the west side there, go into that little clinic next to Tulsa Cares. We answered the gay, I think they called it the gay hotline at that time, something to that effect. That went into the clinic because we were staffed. And so I did get a very limited amount of training, and sometimes I would take calls for that. So it was usually clinic calls, but the other line came in too. And honestly, I didn't even know. It wasn't until then that I realized that the clinic was not a part, I knew that it was separate from Tulsa Cares. It wasn't just in a separate building, but it wasn't until then, later, I think it wasn't until 96 that I even really knew that there was an LGBT group that was in the space. Dennis Neill: Walk me through your early work history from the time you left college through the early years. Jeremy Simmons: Okay. Well, I did a lot of this and that. There wasn't a lot that was super interesting. When I was a teenager, I worked for my grandpa. He had a garage in Ramona, and so I did that for a while. But just surface stuff like pumping gas and 10 �bringing people parts, nothing too complicated. And then I got a job when I was, I think, 16 or 17, which sounds crazy now, but back then everybody just did that at Walmart in Bartlesville, and that was before Walmart became this massive sprawling show that it is today. So I did just miscellaneous stuff. I moved here, and I was doing Thrifty Car Rental which had their corporate headquarters here, and I think that they've been merged into Dollar, Avis, or some other group now, but they were a standalone car reservation place that was based in Tulsa for a long time, and I worked the reservation center for maybe a couple of years. And I was doing that while I was volunteering with OkEq. Dennis Neill: Is that when they relocated what is now Legacy Towers? Jeremy Simmons: Right, around 31st and Yale. And that was kind of interesting because I got to talk to people from all over the world. But it ran its course too. It was never like a permanent thing. And so then, in 96, I was volunteering with the Equality Center, not thinking about it, and they offered me a job, which kind of surprised me. I don't really know why. I think so and again, I just, , I grew up in a pretty small town and I come from pretty conservative background, and so I think people were like: you have to work and own your own business and and make yourself successful that way, or you have to go and work for a big company and make a lot of money. There's the concept of, I don't know, being a social service provider, , or an educator, or something like that it just wasn't really on my radar, which is weird because I was volunteering. So on the one hand, it was right because I was taking my time to help for free, so I had that in my nature. But then also I was like, oh, this isn't something people can do for a living, right, but it offered about the same pay as I was making Thrifty and I was like, yeah, fuck it. So it was kind of a lark, honestly, to start working at OkEq. Dennis Neill: Who actually hired you? Jeremy Simmons: Claudette Peterson. Dennis Neill: She was head of the testing program? Jeremy Simmons: Yes, right. Dennis Neill: Who was it before then? Jeremy Simmons: His first name was Jason, so Jason was doing the position that I filled. I don't know who was in charge before Claudette. Dennis Neill: I think it might have been Roger Morris. Jeremy Simmons: Yeah, that name is not familiar to me. Dennis Neill: Walk us through a little bit about your involvement there and then the transition process with regard to the testing clinic, as you recall, and the staffing changes that you recall. Jeremy Simmons: Sure, so it was also kind of interesting because I thought, because it's a medical job, and I thought, well, you have to be certified medically, but 11 �the state was doing finger stick testing. They were just doing a little finger stick, taking a little bit of blood and putting on a blotter card. Didn't have to be a phlebotomist, didn't have to be a nurse, didn't have to be anything. They trained you how to do that and it was surprisingly easy, and so I think that a lot of people were terrified coming in and so just making it feel normal and being nice to people was the biggest part of the job. That was the most important thing by far, and we had, I think, four employees at the time and that would shift quite a bit based off of state funding. When the state contracts would change, like the positions would come and go. It felt a little chaotic and it did for a long time, honestly, and it's a challenge for a lot of nonprofits, even as they get bigger. If the government funding is such a big chunk and then their priorities shift, then it's like, well, you have to be more of a counselor now, or you have to be more medical now, or you have to do group sessions now, and so you just kind of have to roll with whatever the grant says or get replaced. Fortunately they were pretty good…the state and OkEq and then later HOPE separately, were all pretty good about doing the trainings that were necessary because a lot of them weren't that complicated. They always kept it to where less medical or non-medical staff, non-counseling staff could do the jobs, because it just wouldn't have been an affordable otherwise, because we always needed a lot of free volunteers and low-paid staff or it just wouldn't have worked. Dennis Neill: When you did the finger stick at that time, was that still the requirement to send it off and wait two weeks. Jeremy Simmons: Right. Dennis Neill: What was your experience with that? Knowing folks were coming in getting tested. Did all of them, or a majority of them, come back and the experience you had when you were having to deliver a positive result? I mean, was there hope at that period of time? Jeremy Simmons: Not really. It was really really rough. It was hard getting people to come in, but if they came in they usually came back for their results. So if they were committed. We had something like 75- 80 percent return rate, which I always thought, oh, that's just so, so many people aren't getting their results. But at a lot of testing sites it was like 60 percent or less. So we actually had a good follow-up rate. I think a part of that was just being so openly gay-friendly and non-judgmental about drug use and sex workers and all the other things that people might get worked up about. We did have a lot of people come back in. It was quite, I remember, being from experiencing from the other side- like waiting for 10 to 14 days to get a result back was felt very stressful. While protease inhibitors came out in the 90s, their use and full understanding wasn't, wasn't in place yet. It wasn't until the early 2000s where that started to kind of shift. It took a little bit longer to get it fully ingrained- where we can have these long-term undetectable status kind of thing, a different ballgame. So then there really wasn't a lot that you could do. Getting tested really was more about hoping that you were negative,and then if you found out that you had HIV, then it was a little bit more about when am I going to need hospice care? How am I gonna live a fulfilling life for 20 years? It was more about okay, at a certain point this is going to catch up with me. 12 �Dennis Neill: The folks that did test positive, did you all have a referral list of doctors and counselors that you could provide to help them on their path? Jeremy Simmons: Sort of. There were always people providing services here, but not a lot, and it if you didn't have the right health insurance, it could be very difficult to get into the right people. I remember early on there was a guy named Jeffrey BealI'm sure you remember Dr. Beal- who was like I'm gonna make a clinic that focuses on HIV care and does a good job of it and it's gay, affirming and doesn't matter if people do some drugs or have hep C to or any that like. But a lot of places wouldn't take anybody with HIV. Or if they would, they wouldn't take any other problems, like if you had hep C at the same time or if you couldn't pass a drug test or if you didn't have good insurance or any number of things, because it was already kind of a stretch for them to deal with HIV. So we had some resources. They were few and far between and some of the ones that did it, like Dr. Beal, could quickly get booked up. So, yes, technically, there were resources, but for many people if you lived outside of Tulsa, if you didn't have health insurance, if you didn't have disposable income, if you had a comorbidity, you weren't really going to get care or very good care. Dennis Neill: In addition to Dr. Beal, did you work closely with Ted, his partner, who was providing counseling services. Jeremy Simmons: Fortunately, most of our test results were negative. When we would get a positive test result, people handled that wildly differently. That case where you just felt like, wow, this is gonna be a really tough case, both for you emotionally as well. Sure. So there are some people who like, under underneath it all, have a have a lot of cynicism or cynicism or optimism about life, and so this was definitely a job that taught me a lot about that. Because some people who have really terrible circumstances already and then we're getting HIV positive result, we're like, well, this is a hassle, we're gonna navigate it as best we can. And then some people- it was just all they could think about was how they were going to die. it was very clear, they were like, oh, and also some people wouldn't go into care because then they couldn't let anybody know is how they felt. Even if they had health insurance and even if they lived in Tulsa and had disposable income and didn't have a comorbidity, they might have been so closeted about their sexuality and in some cases, even if they were openly gay and had everything going for them, they felt like they could not let anyone know they had HIV or they would be shunned at the bar or they might be kicked out of an apartment or lose access to a kid or lose a job, which are things that definitely did happen to people. Not extremely often, but regularly, so the fear of them happening was much bigger than the actuality, but they were things that regularly occurred and so it made it made it kind of difficult. Trying to get people into counseling was always great. Some people would spiral and just party and not go to the doctor and their health conditions and overall life would get much, much worse. So not suicide by direct action, but definitely like, well, if I have five more years, I'm just going to enjoy it. 13 �Dennis Neill: How would you compare the percent, you said, fortunately, it was quite low on the positive side in the 90s. How does that compare with today, would you say, the more recent pattern? Jeremy Simmons: It's definitely shifted way down. There was a lot of things happening. It's just, it's a very different, from a public health perspective, communicable disease perspective, it's a very different game now. So back then, there weren't great treatments, like you could get on AZT and maybe combine that with something else, maybe get off and on AZT. There were different things that you could do. And it was sort of the chemotherapy approach. We're just like, hey, we're going to bombard your system with a bunch of toxicity that's going to kill the HIV more than it kills your healthy tissue, but it's definitely going to kill your healthy tissue. So you're going to get sick at a certain point if you stay on AZT or any of these other antivirals at high doses enough to actually help you. It was kind of a gamble. People had to just do their best with it. Now, not only are people living longer, but their health outcomes are much better and they're much less likely to transmit. So we had a lot of people who would get very sick from HIV or very sick from the medications or some of both and try and balance that back and forth. But meanwhile, they were often having a high viral load or a moderate viral load. And so their long-term health outcomes were never going to be great and they were highly infectious to other people. While not everybody fully understood that at the time, enough people understood it. You were shunned if you had HIV was often the case, but not by everyone. It didn't bother me, because I'm in the office around it all the time. But I knew that I was not the norm. There was so much fear among so many gay men that they might get it too. And even if you weren't worried about directly having sexual or blood contact with somebody, I just think a lot of, a lot of gay men looked at other gay men as, oh, well, they're going to get sick soon, sooner rather than later, , and they are potentially infectious. So we have to be more careful around them. There was, even amongst ourselves, I think there was a lot of people, there was a lot of, I think, serosorting is a term I've heard, where it was like there were groups of HIV positive men within gay men that were still, that would still hang out and have community. Which is why places like we talked about earlier, like Our House, were much more relevant at that time. But it's such a different thing now. We would often get 5% or higher HIV rates. Still over 90% of our test results were coming back negative pretty regularly. That would fluctuate a little bit month to month or year to year. But oh, when you looked at year long stretches and multi-year long stretches, it was pretty consistently under 10%, sometimes less than 5%. Now, as hope evolved and even got bigger and started testing more people, like sometimes the positivity rate would be less than 3%, less than 2%. You see a lot less of it. And the biggest part of that is the viral load being much more manageable means that people aren't going to accidentally give it to other people. 14 �Dennis Neill: I know there was an effort at one point in time to really reach out to the African American community with regard to testing. There was actually an organization that partnered with testing to reach out to the African American community. Were you part of that effort? Do you remember the special grants I think that organization received? Jeremy Simmons: I partnered with them. So there was, Derek Davis was very involved, Donald Rose. And this is that thing about human memory. Tall guy, what was his name? Dennis Neill: FUSO [Friends in Unity Social Organization] was the name. Jeremy Simmons: The interesting thing is we just always called it FUSO. They never spelled it out, so like that was the incorporated name. And they at one point they- Renfro was also a guy who was very active with them and I worked with [R.F.] Renfro and then he died, which was one of the…sorry, I'm usually very nonemotional these things, but every now and then he was a very sweet person and not that…that sounds like a shitty thing to say, like no one deserves to die from something so painful. He was involved with this group. He was so sweet and he was so bright and was so healthy and then, like a year, he was gone. Sorry, that's one of the ones that's always still really hard for me to talk about. Dennis Neill: He was not only part of that organization but a close friend as well? Jeremy Simmons: He was a friend, yes, and I knew him a lot better than many of the others and worked with him. It was very surreal, I think, when it came to the clients and I knew people in real life who had HIV too. I just had enough of a wall built up where I could still be engaged with then and care about them. I think that the grant, the process kind of fell away. He was a guiding force behind it, Derek [Davis] was very engaged, I think, Donald, and was as well…and I'm- I'm sorry I'm blanking on that, still blanking on the guy. I can see his face and he's a very tall and he would come up here once in a while. The way I understand it, it's just a lot of those grants, but a lot of those things fluctuate, and so sometimes too- I'm trying to say this politically correct- sometimes the funding sources change so radically that it it it becomes apparent that either someone doesn't know what the fuck they're doing or they're intentionally sabotaging the programs , and it can be hard to tell, because if we're talking about stuff that can start at the federal level and can have lots of intermediaries. For example, when we we formed HOPE as a separate breakaway, in part because state legislators were going after LGBT organizations and OkEq wasn't 100% doing something right on the financials and it was something that a lot of nonprofits would do- shell games with money, but it was also something that if someone wanted to pull the funds, they could do it right. While it was something that a lot of people did and it wasn't a problem, when you live in a place like Oklahoma, when someone goes on the warpath against you, it's just like okay. But even when we did everything we were supposed to do and became a health organization that focused on gay services instead of a gay organization, so we wouldn't get as much grief- the CDC cut funding to the whole state for all HIV programs because the state was just fucking things up so much. 15 �There's a lot of at state and federal levels and I think that I don't want to speak too much for a few. Because I knew them well and I love Renfro and I still keep up a little bit with Derek and Donald…I don't know all of the details there- they were there and it was great to see them being there. And when we phased out of the 42nd office, we moved over and had two or three offices were kind of designated to the HOPE wing or that. That's not what they called it then. They called it just something else simple like the HIV Testing Clinic or the HIV Services or something more generic like that. And then FUSO had a small office in the Equality Center on Brookside. Briefly. Dennis Neill: Talk a little bit more about that transition from 1998 when it became its own nonprofit. How did that whole process, and then when you felt like the ship was getting righted, as far as the relationship with the funders like the state and so on. And the various locations that you've experienced in HOPE testing. Jeremy Simmons: So, as I mentioned, we had some state funders come to us and said, hey, the state is going after anything that's too drug-friendly, anything that's too gay-friendly, and they're not going to give you money next year, probably. If you stay here, they also might audit you and they might end - was happening to an Oklahoma City agency that got shut down right after that. So, I felt like that was pretty sage advice. Dennis Neill: Do you remember the name of the Oklahoma City organization? They started something called the AIDS Support Program. Jeremy Simmons: It was something that hadn't been around forever and then went away. I can't remember it. And they had, because they were a part of an sort of an LGBT organization, someone there, an employee, had promoted some kind of material from NAMBLA, the North American Man-Boy Love Association. And that was just like the grossest, dumbest thing, They were very, like at their core, that group, it's kind of like when you talk to certain people, there's like the public pitch, but at their core, they were very much about grooming and having sex with very young, under 18 people. That was a core part of that NAMBLA group. So it's like, you don't touch them. You don't have to listen to their pitch too much and you kind of dig into what's like what's going on. That's what did them in. I don't even know that they were necessarily promoting something that would have been child molesting oriented. They just did something with that group. At the time, I remember having this conversation with Nancy McDonald and I was kind of against her, but then as I looked back on it, because I wanted to do a leather S&M focused HIV group and just call it what it was. And she was like, no, that's not smart. And I was like, well, okay. That would not have been good. There's just certain things you can't do here or you're gonna get on somebody's radar. That's how it was in the nineties. I think this was actually before we split away from OkEq. I don't remember exactly. I just remember she was one of the ones and I didn't know her very well and I always liked her and respected her, but we, she was very, very cautious compared to what I wanted to do. In retrospect though, I get it. It's one of those things where I was like, I'm happy to say that I would have made the wrong decision on that call. 16 �There’s just certain things you just couldn't do without raising too many red flags and then the next thing , and they're going to find a way. First they'll audit you and then if you're not doing everything right, which many nonprofits weren't in the eighties and nineties, when you really look into it… like we were on a reimbursement contract, not a grant saying we could spend whatever. So we had to use the money and then get reimbursed. If you didn't do it in just the right way, if you did it and people would be like, oh well, but we have to pay the lights and so we're gonna do this with that, then we'll catch up and pay that. At the end of the year, would it all work out? Sure. But you can't, when you're dealing with the Feds in general or when you're dealing with hostile state-level people, you can't shell game with the money at all. Or you can maybe for a year or five years or ten years, like you can for a while. But at some point they're gonna catch you and be like, no, no, you didn't do this exactly right according to this contract. And so now we're gonna pull all your funds and mark you as someone who can't be funded again. Dennis Neill: So in the current day is the HOPE deal where it's a reimbursement type of process as opposed to…. Jeremy Simmons: as opposed to a straight grant? Yep. So that HIV money, ever since I've been involved since 96, whether it was for anybody, like OkEq. HOPE, Tulsa Cares, anybody, whether it's CDC-based, HRSA-based, this is what you do. They'll sometimes make exceptions if you can deal with them directly federally. So there are some exceptions. But most people get reimbursed through the state as an intermediary. And the state's like, you have to do all these things. You have to show us that you've paid for it, and then we'll reimburse you. If you get really lucky, even if you're doing everything right, you're jumping through all the hoops, and you're spending all the money exactly right, and going to all that work, something like COVID will come along. They just won't pay you for five months. Doing that work can be really tough on the people at the top trying to figure out the money. It is challenging for everybody. It always cracks me up when people want to start nonprofits. And they're like, well, we'll get government money. And I'm like, no. You have to have so much liability insurance before certain government agencies will even want to touch you. And that's cost prohibitive to a lot of places. It's like there's just all these big things you have to have in place. And most of them now require annual audits. And if not annual, you will, at least every second or third year, have a serious, deep audit. You have to have all your time ducks in a row, because even trying to do the right thing. We got better as we split away, we were like, OK, we're going to be more legit about money. We still made mistakes. We got better over time. There's always gray areas. , they can come in and be like, well, you're not separating the gloves that you bought from the state health department money from the gloves you're buying for this. And so now you're going to have to pay us back for these gloves, because we can't prove by a visual check that you're the blah, blah, blah. 17 �But we're using all the free gloves you give us, and then we're spending our own money buying other gloves on top of that. Does that not show you that we're using all of the gloves? Anyway, any state or federal agency, if they want to cause problems for you, they can come in and say, oh, well, you didn't do this exactly right. And sometimes it's not even in the contract, which is the most frustrating. , when it's like, OK, we did everything according to the contract. I'm like, well, but this is still an expectation. Dennis Neill: Did you say it was 96 when you first started with the testing? Do you recall what month you started with testing? Jeremy Simmons: I became an employee in the summer. I believe it was July 1st. Because at that point, the state's contract, their annual calendar started something in the summer, June 1st, July 1st, August 1st, something like that. Dennis Neill: And was it HOPE at that point in time? Jeremy Simmons: It was. Dennis Neill: Can you tell us what it was and how that transitioned? Jeremy Simmons: So when we were doing it at first, while Claudette was still here, when we would answer the phone, I would just say it was something very generic but plain, like HIV Testing Clinic, or something really just direct. I don't remember what it was that we said. I don't think anybody was too uptight about it at the time. But we weren't like, thanks for calling the Equality Center, or thanks for calling OkEq, or thanks for calling whatever. It wasn't about branding or anything. It was just like, you've called. Because in part, that building we were in was separate, and it was literally only for… When the people came in for the gay hotline, it rang on a different line. So we needed to answer that as like something, Oklahoma gay hotline, or something. We might have used OkEq as part of that, or TOHR. For a long time. It wasn't until it was not until probably mid-97 to late 97 that I think, we started getting warnings that the state was gonna be auditing people that weren't doing things right. The state was coming for gay dollars. At a certain point before we left, we were like, okay, we need to differentiate ourselves. To be perfectly honest, many of us that were doing the actual work were like, oh yeah, we're gonna have to become a separate financial institution, because this thing where- and it didn't happen all the time, but occasionally we wouldn't get paid or we would have to sit on mileage reimbursements and we weren't making a lot of money. And that's the one sure way to piss your employees off and be like, hey, we actually have to do this stuff with the money instead. So your paychecks gonna be next week, or we're gonna give you a paycheck but you need to sit on it for eight more days, or whatever. And we started calling ourselves HOPE right before we left, but I don't remember when. Dennis Neill: Do you know how that name came about or who created… 18 �Jeremy Simmons: That's a good question, because and- and I looked back- when we did a history project thing and I was like I think I incorporated us both times and Ithere's three people that incorporated HOPE. It was originally HIV outreach, prevention education incorporated and then about a year and a half later we changed it to health outreach, prevention, education. And I remember much more vividly the second conversation because there was this huge debate about whether we were going to be an HIV specific organization or not and branch out into Hep C services and etc. At the beginning I don't recall, but I and Christy Frisbee and Johnny Eilert's were the three people that incorporated the organization as HIV Outreach. So I was involved. I was like oh, yeah, that's my signature, so it is interesting what you kind of remember and kind of don't. But I don't remember a lot of conversation about it. I think for me at the beginning part I was like this was also the 90s, was a different time and I was much younger and I think at the time I was like branding, shmanding, Now I have much, I have much more appreciation for it, but at the time I was like oh, yeah, sure, yeah, we'll call it the this. It was like we have to keep the services going and if we don't, I think if we don't break away, they're gonna come after OkEq, sorry, TOHR. It's hard for me to use that name for some reason, even though I used it, and so the funny thing is technically I was an employee of TOHR . I was paid from Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, so I saw that name all the time. It's just merged, now OkEq. There was definitely a desperation. There was a lot of board discussion and some of it got quite heated because a lot of people felt like no, no, no, this is just blustering, which I don't think was true, but also I get it. It's like sure somebody, some random people- the state- say this and they're like: have them come to the meeting. No, that's not how it works. They're telling us this as a favor because they like us and they want the program to keep going, and they're seeing what's happening in Oklahoma City and it's duh, it's like Tulsa's gonna be next. That's what a lot of times the state people do. They start in Oklahoma City and then, if they have enough steam and need more attention or whatever, then they're just like: oh yeah, let's go after those guys in Tulsa and Lawton and Bartlesville, wherever else. Once we finally agreed to split apart, we stayed at the old building for a while and then we ended up getting another building space that was next door to Tulsa Cares again, and that was on Admiral, just a little bit east of Harvard. Dennis Neill: You were in the same structure? Jeremy Simmons: Right. For many years they had their main building and then there was a small building next door that was separated and we were there. They originally started off the model that they had when at the 42nd and Harvard complex, where they were like we're gonna be a home for a dozen organizations or more, so like the Names Project had like a, or Shanti had like a little teeny, tiny office, baby office there for a little bit. And then who else? There were other groups that had spaces there and we were one of them. We were definitely the second largest because of our staffing size and our funding capacities. RAIN [Regional AIDS 19 �Interfaith Network] was there for a little bit before they had their own thing. So it was supposed to be sort of like a coalition space. But pretty quickly, it became obvious that Tulsa Cares was getting the bulk of the money and that HOPE was getting another big chunk of money and everybody else was like 10% or less of what we were. The staffing and the client needs were overwhelmingly Tulsa Cares and secondarily HOPE. Over time, everything else, a lot of the other smaller organizations kind of merged into Tulsa Cares or finally moved out and got their own spaces. We were there for a while. Dennis Neill: Can you remember the street address? Jeremy Simmons: I think it's 3540 East Admiral Street. It's the Admiral that's north. I can see it always and there's a big church that was on the other side of the street and the building's still there and it looks almost identical to how it looked. I'm not sure if it's even being used right now. Blue and white. Tulsa Cares also started doing group meals at that time. IT started kind of changing what they were a little bit, I think. It was still good for us to have a separate space because people were just so terrified still of getting tested and I think they wanted like the least possible human interaction, the most private parking lot just as possible. We were there for three years to five years. I know that's a very broad term. I don't know exactly how long we were there. Then Tulsa Cares just kept growing and growing and growing and we were slowly growing and we were definitely, so we became the last two. All the other places weren't there anymore. And at a certain point Tulsa Cares was like, hey, we need to have a pantry and we need to expand these food services and we just cannot do this without a lot of extra physical space so you guys are going to need to go. And that was kind of debated and I think my director at the time thought that it wasn't going to happen and it ended up happening though. Christy Fresbee and I were the only two people that were incorporators on both times that we did the name change. We needed space, we had a lot of money for staffing and medical services but we were having a really hard time getting money for a facility and that's just a much, rent or owning is just its own thing. And Community of Hope on 25th and Yale was kind enough to let us stay there for like a year and a half to two years as a temporary transitional space. Then we moved, 3540 might be the 31st Street location. Then we moved to 31st Street which I think was a 3540 location. So that was on 31st a little bit east of Harvard. And we were there for about a decade. That was our longest location. Then we moved to a shopping center for a year and a half around 51st and Harvard and then Hope bought its final location that it owns now that's closer to 51st and Yale. Dennis Neill: When did you decide to leave HOPE and what are you up to now? Jeremy Simmons: I love being at Starlight, I think, but there was a thing going around for volunteer requests from OkEq for Pride and I thought about doing it but I kind of enjoy taking a break from HOPE and being distanced from that and being in some of those same spaces people just walk up and expect me to do HOPE stuff and so I was like I mean I think I just need to be a little further away. 20 �Dennis Neill: I was thinking maybe the late 80s early 90s Starlight was a gay bar but I could be wrong about that. Jeremy Simmons: Forever before it was Starlight it was the Chatterbox which was definitely not a gay bar but yes back in the 80s and 90s remember how we talked earlier about there was this golden time for teenagers where you could be wherever there was an after-hours thing. One of the names was The Factory. It was called many different things and so I went there as a little teenager but you had to wait until 1:45 A.M. or 2:15 or whatever because they made money as a bar and then reopened back up and sold non-alcoholic beverages. So yes, that was definitely... In different incarnations, a more overtly gay space or a kind of gay friendly space. But many of the after-hours places were…It was kind of Wild West compared to what it's like now. There's so many liquor laws now and there's so many ABLE Commission and police…there's just so many guidelines and so many people watching what you do now. Back then it was just like, yeah, someone's coming out of the bathroom with coke on their face, who cares? There's this wild thinking of that. As a teenager, like having access to that world, it felt like when people say it wasn't Studio 54, but when I see stuff like that for Manhattan, I was just like I get that general vibe. I don't know how it happens, but there's like you pay off the cops or you stay off their radar long enough or something , and it's just like people were just like whatever, and so there was more of that at those places. It was more of that live and let live, yeah, kind of a thing. Even the straight people were like, whatever, everybody's doing their own thing Dennis Neill: Switching a little bit to more kind of the broader community you're in, your involvement, advocacy, social activities and particularly your board service with OkEq. Jeremy Simmons: There was a little bit of confusion and hostility when HOPE split away from OkEq. I think it was pretty minimal and it was understandable. It's like okay. There was a little brief period of detente, but I think within several months, definitely within a year, there was conversations about us doing testing on Saturdays at the Equality Center. So we pretty quickly moved past whatever that was, and and started doing regular services here, in part to sort of help- and I've always loved it here- but in part also to sort of seem at that bridge between HOPEand OkEq. I became a board member and I became a committee member. I don't know exactly what they called it, it was something like the rebranding committee, so it was for conversations around the name change and logo, and so I was just… I was on a committee of people, some some board members, but a lot of other just community members, and so I did that and really loved it. It was a lot of fun- and then got on the general board and then the executive committee of the board. Again, I'm terrible with years, but I was on the executive committee as we moved into this building. Dennis Neill: So we moved in 2007. Jeremy Simmons: Okay, I knew it was after the millennia, but I couldn't, but it's just like. That's definitely one of those. I have a hard time anchoring it to another event. 21 �When I was on the committee, we were still in that shopping center on the 41st Street. Dennis Neill: You probably had what- Mark Bonney and Laura BelmonteJeremy Simmons: Yep, yep, I was much more involved with Laura because she was on. …She was very involved. Mark, I believe, was the president, but she was on the committee that brought me in, so I was much more involved with her, and then she became president at a certain point, yeah, and so I always remember being much more involved with her and, while she's on a separate board somewhat, I was more involved with Sue Welch occasionally for other things. I still, even though I'm with on the board, I'm still not a hundred percent sure what the different duties are between the two, like the, the two boards, just to be honest with…the Board of Trustees. I get it in general, but especially as we moved into the building, there was a lot of oh, we want to do this, we want to do that, and there was just like there was….It was very interesting trying to sort of figure all that out still is, because it's like everybody has so many good intentions and so many opinions and so many preferences, right, and so it's hard coordinating that. I- and it's something that I learned a lot from here- and I was like, okay, and I actually heard someone else say this from another LGBT group in another city- and they're like, well, but it's different, not that other marginalized communities or individual communities don't have problems also, but like a lot of immigrant families, a lot of black Americans, a lot of indigenous Americans….A lot of groups are raised within their own communities. So there are, generally speaking, a lot more acceptable norms and like expectations of what is gonna happen, whereas we come from every larger and smaller community. So I think it makes it even harder to get a lot of consensus. We have men and women and transgender people, we have all races, all regions, all socio-economic background, , and so there's all religions. There's not like an overarching norm, aside from maybe being an American, which is a million different things. I think it's just, I think it's common at LGBT centers, to make it harder to get true consensus because there's just so many different drives. Dennis Neill: HOPE in a way, it's certainly been on the forefront of advocacy with its education and outreach, so you've been part of that for decades. Are there other aspects of our community where you felt like you've taken on an advocacy role or in the future, you want to get more involved as you transition and any thoughts about our community at large as its transitioned over the years, the good and the bad. Jeremy Simmons: Oh, that's a really big one. I've worked with several different groups. I worked with the American Red Cross doing HIV education and education around blood-borne pathogens, and it was interesting working within a large bureaucratic, large system and trying to sort of make it be not scared of HIV, to be more open to LGBT. That's not my strength is. I enjoy doing it, but I think I need more immediate results. So I've always dealt with probably smaller groups. I volunteered for a while off and on with the Nightingale Theater and that was fun before the theater was here. There's a lot of small venues here in Tulsa, but before there was a theater here, Nightingale is one of those few spaces where you could do some really sexually 22 �explicit material, thematically or overtly, like, and so they did like a gay spin on the Dukes of Hazzard, stuff like that- that just there wasn't a place for it. Now we have an option here as well, which is great. So that was fun. I was one of the founding board members with the Equality Network, which picked up some steam but then eventually merged with Cimarron Alliance to become Freedom Oklahoma. I think it might have been called something else at first, but now it's Freedom Oklahoma, I believe. I've not kept up with them super well. They invited us to come and I spoke to some state senators about HIV laws and changing them, and that feels good in the moment. It's interesting to do. But also it's like four senators showed up- what I mean, and so- and they were mostly women from progressive women from Oklahoma City who were gonna vote with us anyway. Sometimes at the state level, it even it feels it can feel a little daunting. But because of that, I think that groups like OkEq and Freedom Oklahoma need to continue the pressure because- and sometimes it's just luck, right, sometimes things just line up in ways you can't expect, like we got law enforcement to to get on board with decriminalizing needles to a degree, and that's not the group that I would have thought would have supported us, but they're the groups getting stuck when they do frisking right. Jeremy Simmons: Sometimes something comes from a place , and so it's like, oh, legislators will listen to them, in conjunction with other community groups and public health people, to to maybe decriminalize this. So we understand it's like: no, we need cleaner needles so that everyone, not just the people that are using, but everybodyhas fewer blood-borne pathogens that they have to worry about. So there definitely needs to keep happening. That's harder for me to be engaged with personally. As I've gotten older, as I've lived and been an American, America has gotten overwhelmingly more gay-friendly and Oklahoma has not. There's pockets, in Tulsa and Oklahoma City that are way more gay-friendly. But I just think everybody understands that those are little isolated oases. Dennis Neill: Now that you're kind of free from HOPE, that stability, but also that confinement of being in that one job, do you still feel like you're anchored in Tulsa, or are you anxious to experiment, go other places? Jeremy Simmons: I'm open to see where the future takes me. Some friends of mine moved to Spain recently, and they're making a big pitch for me to come to Spain with them. Which sounds kind of ridiculous, but then also I'm like, there's certain skills like bartending that are kind of universal. It's easier to be a bartender in places like Spain than it is to be a phlebotomist. So, maybe. We'll see. I really like being here, though. I love... when I came here, I just knew almost no one. I had tons of casual acquaintances at first. And building up all these deep friendships and seeing these nonprofits and these cool, unique little businesses thrive here, and being able to even just support them a little bit in some way, has been really lovely. I really love Tulsa. So, I'm very open to anything now. I don't feel... So, forever, I did feel like... And I didn't fully understand this until I left, but I felt like I had to stay. 23 �And I don't really know why, because everybody else left a long time ago from the 90s, but I felt like I had to keep HOPE going. I personally had to make sure that HOPE was going, which is dumb. Everybody eventually ages out. Everybody dies, if nothing else. And then everybody gets tired. Like, when you're helping people... I was a full-time employee for 24 years. And I loved it for a lot of that. And then, towards the end, I didn't love it anymore. I think sometimes when you're helping people, you have to make a choice to go do something else that's more fun or go do something else that makes more money for a while. I'm not sure. I'm sure there are the Mother Teresa types that can do it indefinitely. But I'm like, I need to... so, whatever I'm doing in the future, for the latter part of my life, I need to get paid more per hour than what I was at HOPE, or having more fun than what I was getting at HOPE towards the end. It has to be at least one of those two things. Preferably both. Everybody wants that job, and that's hard to find. But I did feel very anchored to HOPE. I was just like, we are one and the same. To the point that I'm not sure it was super healthy, honestly. Dennis Neill: Well, you provide us with a valuable history about HOPE, AIDS, and your engagement. Are there any final comments you want to make as we bring the interview to conclusion? Jeremy Simmons: While the current federal administration is abysmal, I think this is some dying last gasps of some outmoded thinking. And so while things feel very dark right now, I think things are about to get much better in the next several years. And here, and everywhere else in the United States. And I really appreciate everybody who's been involved with HOPE, and OkEq, and all the other groups. Tulsa Cares, Our House, all the other LGBT groups, all the other HIV and Hep C and harm reduction groups like SHOTS. I just love that I know so many people that are doing so much great work. And it keeps me... While I personally need a break from it, I love getting on social media. I love showing up to the Equality Center. I love going to a gala randomly somewhere and seeing all of the support that Tulsa still has to give. So, I think the future's going to be great. And I appreciate y'all taking some time with me. And I appreciate everybody who's interested enough in this to listen to it. And just keep reminding yourself that even though things look very... feel very heavy right now, this is temporary. It will shift back. Dennis Neill: Jeremy, thank you so much. This is an invaluable interview. And we look forward to your continued advocacy in our community. Thank you very much. Jeremy Simmons: Thank you. 24 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Jeremy Simmons Interview Description An account of the resource Jeremy Simmons shares his journey of self-discovery and advocacy within the LGBTQ+ community. Growing up in a conservative, religious environment, he navigated the complexities of his sexual identity while facing societal expectations and bullying. His experiences shaped his commitment to community engagement and HIV awareness, leading his long-time involvement first as a volunteer and then 30 years as an HIV educator and tester with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights and then HOPE. Jeremy reflects on the challenges of nonprofit management and expresses hope for the future of the LGBTQ+ community, emphasizing the importance of continued advocacy and support. Subject The topic of the resource Jeremy Simmons Oral History Project Interview from January 21, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jeremy Simmons, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 21, 2026 2026 AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV education Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill HIV HIV Education HIV Outreach Education Program HIV Outreach Education Program (HOPE) HIV/AIDs HIV/AIDs outreach HOPE interview Jeremy Simmons OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/b5797d8e6a719851e5aaadc5bf51401a.jpeg f3c3492c194ce05fca763828f51ded62 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > In Memoriam Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br /><br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Joe McDonald Obituary Subject The topic of the resource Joseph Leo McDonald, October 25, 1933 - February 12, 2026 Description An account of the resource Joseph (Joe) McDonald, MD, passed away on February 12, 2026 in Tulsa. He was proceeded in death by his wife of 66 years, Nancy McDonald. Joe and Nancy were long-time advocates for Oklahomans for Equality (OkEq) and Tulsa PFLAG, serving both organizations in many ways. Joe and other members of All Souls Unitarian Church donated hundreds of volunteer hours in 2005-2007 in the work necessary to open the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, the home of OkEq. OkEq proudly hosts the Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library, serving our community for more than two decades. Joe served in the U.S. Air Force as a physician prior to locating to Tulsa for a long career as an anesthesiologist. His other civic involvement included building houses with Habitat for Humanity and serving as a reading and math buddy in Tulsa Public Schools. (Obituary written by Dennis Neill. Tulsa World obituary from March 1, 2026 available on-site only.) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dennis Neill, Tulsa World Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 1, 2026 2026 ALL SOULS UNITARIAN CHURCH available at Center Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill Dennis R. Neill Equality Center Equality Center in memoriam Joe McDonald Nancy and Dr. Joe McDonald Nancy and Joe McDonald Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library Obituaries Obituary OkEq OkEq Equality Center Oklahomans for Equality Oklahomans for Equality (OKEQ) Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) PFLAG PFLAG Tulsa Chapter Rainbow Library Tulsa PFLAG Tulsa World https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/f72c2df42fc84be737c24550dce17aec.mp4 d517224038d8563bc6f524eb2753e69d https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/9c5aa6299e0ece9650f1789f237c463b.pdf fc9870b8c20fb40b7478d0f28e9f551a PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with John Madigan Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: January 13, 2026 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, January 25, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About John Madigan Summary This conversation with John Madigan explores his life journey from a small mining town in Canada to becoming an influential figure in the LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa, Oklahoma. John shares his experiences growing up on a farm, his transition into the oil and gas industry, and his eventual involvement in various LGBTQ+ organizations, including Prime Timers. He reflects on the intersection of faith and sexuality, the challenges faced by the LGBTQ+ community, and the importance of advocacy and inclusion for older adults. John's insights provide a rich narrative of resilience, community, and the ongoing fight for equality. Takeaways 2  John was born in a small mining town in Canada.  He grew up on a farm with 12 siblings.  Education was a significant part of his early life.  John transitioned to the oil and gas industry in the 1960s.  He moved to Tulsa in 1990 and became involved in the local community.  John identifies as a gay man and became aware of his sexuality in adolescence.  He has maintained his Catholic faith throughout his life. � John has been actively involved in LGBTQ+ organizations, including Prime Timers.  He emphasizes the importance of community and advocacy for older LGBTQ+ adults.  John believes in the need for ongoing activism to protect LGBTQ+ rights. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Early Life 02:47 Growing Up on the Farm 06:00 Education and Early Career 09:00 Transition to the Oil and Gas Industry 12:02 Life in Tulsa and Community Engagement 15:02 Understanding Sexual Identity 18:02 Faith and Sexuality 20:55 Involvement in LGBTQ+ Organizations 23:48 The Formation of Prime Timers 26:57 Community Building and Advocacy 30:08 Challenges and Triumphs in the LGBTQ+ Community 33:09 Reflections on Aging and Inclusion 36:01 Future of LGBTQ+ Advocacy 38:59 Final Thoughts and Legacy John Madigan Interview Toby Jenkins: Good afternoon. We are here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library. And we have an interview with John Madigan. John, for archival purposes, tell us your full name, your date of birth, and your physical address. John Madigan: John T. Madigan. 04-24-45, XXXXX, Tulsa. 3 �Toby Jenkins: All right. So we're going to jump right in. John, where were you born? John Madigan: Luscar, Alberta, in Canada. Toby Jenkins: In Canada. So you're from Canada. Is that a big city, small city, little town, hole in the wall? What is it? John Madigan: Well, back in the early 40s, it was a mining town. Today, it's a, what do you want to say? It's got a signpost to say where it was. Toby Jenkins: So you were born there in Canada. And at that time, so 1945, it would have been a mining town. What would the population have been? John Madigan: 400 or 500 people. They're just miners. Toby Jenkins: So it was still just a small town. And did your father work in the mine? John Madigan: Yes. That was his military duty. Toby Jenkins: OK. He was required to do it, or it was his assignment. Was he assigned there for security or for just a? John Madigan: He worked in it. Toby Jenkins: OK. And did your mother work outside the home? John Madigan: No. Toby Jenkins: And how many siblings do you have? John Madigan: 12. Toby Jenkins: 12. And this would have been in 1945 in Canada. And your father was able to support the family with the money he made at the mine? John Madigan: Well, that lasted only after the war was over. Then we moved back to Saskatchewan where he was raised to his parents' homestead. Toby Jenkins: So they had a farm? John Madigan: His parents moved from Ontario to Saskatchewan in 1905 when the three provinces were divided up. And so they had to have people to populate it. So it was just like Oklahoma. You had a homestead. Toby Jenkins: OK. And so you kind of grew up on a farm then? Toby Jenkins: How old were you when you moved back to Saskatchewan? 4 �John Madigan: About a year old. Toby Jenkins: Oh, so you were just a toddler. Where are you in the birth order of 12 kids? John Madigan: At the top. Toby Jenkins: You're the oldest? John Madigan: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Well, that's incredible. There was a lot of pressure on you. Now, with 12 children, what was their religious affiliation? John Madigan: They were Roman Catholic. Toby Jenkins: Roman Catholic. That explains the 12 children. So you lived there, and you lived on what would have been your grandparents' homestead. So did you farm? John Madigan: When in 46, 47, we moved to my uncle's farm. And then he moved back to Ontario. And so we had the farm until 2018. Everybody quit farming. Toby Jenkins: What kind of did y'all raise? Crops, cattle, sheep, goats? John Madigan: No goats. No, it was wheat farming. And we had cows on the side for eating purposes. Toby Jenkins: Was there a little school in this little town that y'all went back to? John Madigan: Yeah, we had two. It was called Naomi. It was three miles from the house. And then when we started to go to school, we walked or rode the horse. We didn't get to drive the buggy until we were eight, nine years old. Toby Jenkins: No school bus? John Madigan: School bus? We're lucky we had a car. Toby Jenkins: So you had to go three miles to school. Now was that a Canadian public school, or was that a private Catholic school? John Madigan: Public school. Toby Jenkins: And is that where you graduated from high school? John Madigan: No, that was my elementary. And then they closed it and they consolidated the school district. So we had to move to town to go to school. That's when we found out there was a school bus that worked. 5 �Toby Jenkins: And what was the town, the bigger city? John Madigan: Ceylon Toby Jenkins: And so they had a high school, a public high school. John Madigan: It went from first to twelfth grade. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember what year you graduated from high school? John Madigan: 1964. Toby Jenkins: 1964. How many were in your graduating class? John Madigan: Twelve. Toby Jenkins: Twelve. Wow. Well, that sounds so wonderful. So you were twelve years old. You graduated from a class of twelve, my apologies. And when you finished high school, you had all of these younger siblings. What was your plan? Do you remember what your plan was as a senior in high school? What you kind of dreamed. Did you dream you were going to farm? Or did you dream you were going to stay there? No. John Madigan: No. Farming was not my forte. I was not going to make that as a career and I didn't. Toby Jenkins: So what did you do right after high school? John Madigan: So after high school, then did odd jobs. And then I got a summer job with the highway department. John Madigan: The, what do you want to call it? District office was there in town. Toby Jenkins: So you did that, but you still were staying at home in that area. John Madigan: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And still helping with your family. John Madigan: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: When did you finally leave there? John Madigan: Then that winter I got a job with the company doing oil and gas exploration from here in Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: In 1965? John Madigan: It's about 67. 6 �Toby Jenkins: 67. Okay. So you're a Canadian farm boy and you went from there to Tulsa, Oklahoma. John Madigan: Well, I spent the winter in Canada doing exploration. And then the next spring he moved us down here to Kansas. That was the first job in exploration down here. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So did you have to have a visa, a work permit? John Madigan: Yeah, I had a work visa. Toby Jenkins: And so that would have been in the 60s. Were you excited about coming to work in the U.S.? John Madigan: Yes, it was a good job. Toby Jenkins: You were just glad to get off the farm. John Madigan: That was something to do. Toby Jenkins: And so you came to the middle of the country and you said you started out in Kansas. And what exactly were you doing in the oil and gas? Were you a roughneck? John Madigan: No. No, it was exploration. We used gravity for our readings. It's similar to seismic, where they drilled holes and used dynamite for their energy. We had a machine that was gravity. It would read the pull of gravity. It changed at every spot that we were in. Toby Jenkins: So eventually, you said you started out in Kansas. Then eventually they moved you to Tulsa? John Madigan: Well, we went from Kansas. That year we went to Iowa. Then from Iowa we went to Nevada. Spent over about a year in Nevada. And then we went to Utah, to north of Salt Lake, Ogden. And worked out on the Salt Lake flat. And then we moved back to Kansas, to Goodland. And then from there, went back to Williston, North Dakota. And then we moved down to San Antonio, Texas in July, so you know what the temperature was there, when the humidity and the temperature were the same. Toby Jenkins: But I would have thought you would have been grateful to get out in North Dakota in the summer. John Madigan: That was coming summer. The fun of job, working exploration, was we worked in the summer in the south and worked in the winter in the north. 7 �Toby Jenkins: Isn't that the way it always is? So while you're bouncing around all over the midsection of America in the oil and gas industry, were you staying in contact with your family? I mean, were you sending money home? John Madigan: No. Toby Jenkins: But you were writing them letters, talking to them. John Madigan: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Your siblings, did you make trips home during the holidays? John Madigan: Every once in a while, yeah. We had vacation time. Toby Jenkins: When did you eventually land in Tulsa? What year would that have been? John Madigan: I came to Tulsa to stay in 1990, in January. Toby Jenkins: So all of those years, would they have you visit Tulsa for companyrelated issues? John Madigan: Yeah, the only time coming to town was just between jobs, change equipment or something like that. Toby Jenkins: And so what was your thoughts of Tulsa in those days when you first were exposed to it? Because that would have been in the days we were the oil capital of the world. John Madigan: Yeah, that was, well, I didn't stay in very long, but it was a nice city, liked it. That's why I come back. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and do you remember what the company was you worked with, what the name of the company was? John Madigan: They started out as E.V. McCollum & Company. And then when the owner finally, to decide, when he was in his 80s, to retire, it was called Gravimetrics. And we had an office down on South Main, just across the street from Texaco building. Dennis, you'd know where the Texaco building was. Toby Jenkins: All right, so about what age was it you finally moved to Tulsa, officially, permanently? John Madigan: I guess that's 90, that's 35 years ago. You take that from 80, I'm about 50. 8 �Toby Jenkins: You were in your 40s, late 40s. Okay, so all of this time you're here, did you become a U.S. citizen, or did you maintain your Canadian citizenship? John Madigan: Yeah, I still got my Canadian citizenship. I couldn't give it up, I couldn't afford to. Toby Jenkins: Right, so during this time you would have been a young adult man. Did you ever marry? Did you ever have children? John Madigan: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you were a farm boy, and you landed this job, and it took you all over the country. How do you identify? What is your sexual orientation? John Madigan: Gay. Toby Jenkins: So you consider yourself a gay man. When did you begin to be aware that you were different than other people, different than other farm boys? Speaker 3: 13. Toby Jenkins: So you began to be aware of some differences when you were an adolescent. And when you finally get out of Canada, and you're traveling with this oil and gas company, was this an identity or sexual orientation? You became more aware of it, more confident that that's? John Madigan: Oh yeah, because you met different people in different towns. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so when you would travel to these towns, would there be places to meet other men who were like yourself? John Madigan: Well, there could be, but I wasn't pursuing that. Toby Jenkins: Okay. But you knew that, by then you knew that you... John Madigan: Oh yeah, because you knew. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so when you came to Tulsa, did you meet any other gay people here in Tulsa? John Madigan: Well, that's when I, by 95, that's when I joined Prime Timers. Toby Jenkins: Okay, but that would have been a couple of years after you had arrived. What about when you first arrived in Tulsa? John Madigan: Oh, yeah, we got to know a friend that, he was a Prime Timer too, and he was working at the hotel that I was staying over in West Tulsa. 9 �Toby Jenkins: Okay, do you remember who that was? Was that just a friend, or was that a boyfriend? John Madigan: No, we got to know each other, and his name was Jim Young. Toby Jenkins: Jim Young, okay, very good. Do you remember, when you first moved here, did you go to the gay bars here in Tulsa? Did you find them? John Madigan: I knew of them, but I didn't go to them. Toby Jenkins: Was it because that wasn't your thing, or you were still, you weren't out to people at work? I mean, what was the motivation for kind of segregating yourself from the community? John Madigan: No, it was just not that, I wasn't a bar person. I went to bars when I was working, you know, friends and co-workers. When I was working in different towns, I went to bars, but it was not very often. Toby Jenkins: So, you met this guy, and did he then kind of introduce you to other gay men, the bigger community? John Madigan: No, the conversation got around to it, you know. And he knew people here in Tulsa, because he moved from Eufaula up to Tulsa get away from the kinfolk. Toby Jenkins: Now, you had never married, and you were staying in contact with your family. Did you ever have a discussion with your family that you identified as gay, or did they ever ask? John Madigan: They didn't ask, and so I just kept things quiet. So, I'm sure they, you know, we just don't speak about it. A couple of my brothers, I am sure they're gay. Toby Jenkins: So, we all just, it's just not a conversation. Now, when you were addressing this, was there, did you have any kind of internal turmoil? I mean, did you feel like there was something wrong with you being this way, and so you felt like you needed to date women, or you needed to make everybody think you were straight? John Madigan: No, I just didn't. It was not a topic of discussion, even though I had coworkers that voiced their hetero feelings. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, talking about women all the time. John Madigan: And about gays. You know, they'd run into them in their lifetime, and well, we got talking about it, and they'd run them down, and I'd just cut them off at the knees and say, this is not appropriate to the job. 10 �Toby Jenkins: Okay, so what about, you were born into a Catholic family. Was there, and now, are you still a practicing Catholic? John Madigan: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, still identifies Roman Catholic, and where do you attend services? John Madigan: Christ the King, Cherry Street. Toby Jenkins: Was there ever a time where your faith and your sexuality, there was a struggle, or did you come to a resolution? Did you seek out pastoral counseling? John Madigan: No, not really. But I knew that that was not the norm of the traditional religious in the church. Yeah. But just...I had people that had conflicts with their religion and voiced it, you know, but that's just part of the tradition, you know, that was not in, so yeah, you deal with it. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever feel any kind of, um, like you were being attacked or you were being questioned at your church? Did they want to know why you weren't married, or, John Madigan: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you never had a priest or a religious leader who tried to reassure you that you were welcome at the church and maybe talk about that? John Madigan: I never felt unwelcome at any church that I went to. Toby Jenkins: Were there other LGBTQ people in your congregation that you knew? John Madigan: Oh, heck yes, you know them. Toby Jenkins: So, uh, just, just out of curiosity, as an 80 year old Catholic Canadian, what did you think when our previous Pope began to really make waves and say some pretty unexpected things affirming and loving towards LGBTQ people, specifically when he said priests could, um, uh, say a prayer at, uh, at same sex, uh, marriage ceremony, they, you couldn't do the ceremony, but they could, I guess, bless it. John Madigan: Bless it, yeah. Toby Jenkins: What was, what was your thoughts when that happened? John Madigan: That was, well, the, uh, this is the recognition by the church that we're children of God. There's no discrimination. It's only humans discriminate against. We'll always have homophobes. 11 �Toby Jenkins: Were you surprised that the Pope came out so strongly, supportingly, and lovingly of LGBTQ people? No. John Madigan: No. It was, it was in the, kind of in the flow. Toby Jenkins: Okay. John Madigan: It was, the church has, has to, uh, adjust to the society. Toby Jenkins: So the, the present Pope, who's an American Pope, um, do you feel like he's going to continue the work of the previous Pope of inclusion and moving the church towards a more welcoming faith community? John Madigan: Well, they're going to be more open about it. It was not saying that the church was not welcoming to you. They just didn't say anything about it. Toby Jenkins: Very interesting. Anything else you want to say about faith and sexuality or anything about that before? John Madigan: You know, since we’ve worked for the last 40 years or more, we made our voice, our presence known. We live in this country. We're a part of everything. Toby Jenkins: Ok. So it's, um, you're here, you know that you're a gay man, you're in Tulsa, Oklahoma, you've met this one friend, um, and, uh, you didn't really, from what you're told us, you didn't really connect, you know, with the clubs, the bars. Um, were you aware of TOHR, uh, and it's different names, what we call Oklahomans for Equality today? John Madigan: And, uh, I didn't, hmm, may have heard about it, but didn't, you know, make any concerted connection to it until after I, that both of us joined Prime Timers. Toby Jenkins: Okay. John Madigan: And then, and then, then right there you had 40 gay people right in front of you, yeah. Toby Jenkins: So, uh, did, in those, like in the early 90s when it was forming, did y'all meet at the community center? Um, do you remember? John Madigan: We met at the, there was a meeting room at, um, Harvard where the, uh, TOHR had their call center. Toby Jenkins: And their and their HIV testing, yeah. John Madigan: No, it didn't have that, it was, uh, you know, just the telephone. You called in and. 12 �Toby Jenkins: Okay, the helpline. John Madigan: Yeah, the helpline, that's right, and because a couple of the, uh, Prime Timers were working there. Toby Jenkins: Were volunteering on it. And so they would meet there in the meeting room. John Madigan: Yeah, they had a meeting room there. Toby Jenkins: Ok. So, you, you met this friend, and did he tell you about Prime Timers, or were y'all a part of Prime Timers forming? John Madigan: One of his friends that he knew, uh, mentioned it, and, uh. And I think Jim knew about Wesley, which was the founder. Toby Jenkins: Wesley, do you remember his last name? John Madigan Bauer. Toby Jenkins: Bauer, okay. Toby Jenkins: So Wesley had formed a chapter of Prime Timers. For our viewers, please tell us what Prime Timers is, and what it means, and what its mission. John Madigan: Okay. Prime Timers started in Boston. He was a professor, and he wanted to have a group of men of like persuasion for older guys to have a place to go and meet and greet, have fellowship and things. He started the organization in 1983. In 1993, Wesley and Omer started Tulsa Area Prime Timers. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So it was a chapter of a national affiliate. And so did they have monthly meetings, monthly discussion groups? John Madigan: We had a monthly meeting, and we had activities during the month. Toby Jenkins: What were you doing to be connected to the national group? Because I guess by then it probably had chapters all over the country, didn't it? John Madigan: Oh, yeah. Even off in other countries. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, around the world. My awareness of it is, to me, it seems to be having a resurgence. Do you think that's because there's more older men now that we're seeing? Our LGBTQ community, we're seeing a larger group of older, middleaged retired men? 13 �John Madigan: Oh, yes. It's more acceptable and open, and there's less conflict and stigma in this. And then the mission of the organization was to have something for older men to do, meet others. Toby Jenkins: And so it was just for men? John Madigan: Yes, it is just a men's group. Toby Jenkins: How did you handle, if you had an individual who identified as a female person, they wanted to be a part of the group, how did you handle that? John Madigan: Just told them away. When we were at the meeting down at Peoria... Toby Jenkins: On the Brookside location. John Madigan: On the Brookside location, we had just one lady come up and says, can we join Prime Timers? And I says, no, it's a men's only organization. And she says, well, could we start one? I says, yeah, you can start a girls' Prime Timers. Toby Jenkins: And there is a similar organization. I think it's changed its name a couple of times, but it is for older women who identify as lesbian or bisexual. How did you handle individuals who might have been transgender? John Madigan: Well, we had a member that transed while she was a member. And after she transed, then she was out of the group. We didn't ostracize her. She would come to the all activities. Toby Jenkins: So as she transitioned, came into the group identifying as male and transitioned to a female person. And so once she transitioned, she left the group. John Madigan: Yeah, well, she was identifying as female. Toby Jenkins: So that would have been the 90s and you got involved in it. What else would you like to say about Prime Timers? John Madigan: It's a great organization for gay men. Toby Jenkins: Bisexual men. John Madigan: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And you have, I know you'll have lots of brunches and lunches and you go to the movies and I know several of you travel to the National Gathering every year. You have a monthly meeting here at the Center. You have big holiday parties. I went to one of your recent holiday parties. I don't know how, there's probably 60 men in that 14 �house. And it was a blast and I got hand warmers in the gift exchange. I was tickled to death. Toby Jenkins: So Prime Timers, while it's its own separate individual 501c3 and its own program for gay and bisexual men, you had said that you were meeting, you were meeting at the Center. You talked about how the Harvard location, the Brookside location, and then I can, I think the first time I was exposed to you was when we were 21st and Memorial in the meeting room downstairs, which was not super accessible for people who had, people who had difficulty going up and down. When did you begin to get more involved with the organization? I mean, originally it was called Oklahomans for Human Rights and it became Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights and then eventually Oklahomans for Equality. John Madigan: I got into TOHR, oh I guess 97, 98, and just since I worked at nights and Tuesdays was usually my day off. So I'd go down to the Center on Memorial and sit at the meeting. Toby Jenkins: Okay. You would volunteer? John Madigan: No, just got interested. Toby Jenkins: Now were you ever involved in PFLAG with Nancy and Joe McDonald? John Madigan: Oh yes. Got connected at Fellowship [Congregational Christian Church] when they were having meetings there. Toby Jenkins: Okay. John Madigan: Nancy. TOHR. Then after that, then they got to, they got started with the Pyramid Project and just one day I got roped in by Sue and Marcy. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And what was the, if you, for our viewers, tell us what the Pyramid Project was? John Madigan: The Pyramid Project was set up for, for the organization to find a permanent building. So it's in 2004, was it then? Then we finally bought the building. Toby Jenkins: Why did we need a permanent building? John Madigan: Well, because our landlords weren't very good. Toby Jenkins: Wouldn't let us fly a rainbow flag over the building. So you helped with that project? John Madigan: Yes 15 �Toby Jenkins: So were you here that day we bought the building and raised the flag and we had the bagpiper here. What were your thoughts that day after y'all spent how many years? John Madigan: I guess about eight years, you know, convincing the gay community in Tulsa that we got the dirt. Back then we always had to say, well you don't have any dirt so we won't give you any money. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so by dirt you mean geographical possession of a piece of property. John Madigan: Yeah, and so then when we did, we signed the deed on this building, then we come up and says, okay now, we got the dirt. We want your money. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and they come across. Toby Jenkins: We all work together. Do you, so you were involved in Prime Timers and you were involved in this organization's formation and supporting the purchase of a permanent building. Did you participate in any of the renovation days that we would have? John Madigan: Oh yeah, When I had days off. John Madigan: when, of course, mornings was... Okay, gay people don't start before nine o'clock. So... Toby Jenkins: So, I want to, I don't want to miss it. Is there anything during that time, anything else that stands out in your mind, like pride festivals? Did Prime Timers participate in the pride festivals and the pride parades? John Madigan: Oh, yes. That was our community exposure. Toby Jenkins: That's what people found out about you. So we moved into this building and then y'all started having your monthly meetings here. Do you remember when they, do you remember when they were going to lift the ban on gays in the military? And were you a part of helping me collect names for our wall of honor? John Madigan: Yes, it is right over there. Toby Jenkins: And many of those were Prime Timers, weren't they? John Madigan: Yes Toby Jenkins: And we've lost many of them. John Madigan: Like most of them. 16 �Toby Jenkins: Most of them on the military wall, our wall of honor, which we dedicated that whenever the ban was lifted. And so, do you remember anything you want to say about that and what that experience was like? John Madigan: Well, that was a nice gesture by the organization to honor those people that served for freedom in this country. Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: Even though they had to keep their mouth shut, otherwise they would have been kicked out. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So when did there begin to be a stronger emphasis on providing programming for older adults? When did that really take off? John Madigan: I guess about 2009, 10, when you run into the SAGE organization. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Serena Worthington. John Madigan: Yeah, Serena. Toby Jenkins: I heard her speak at Creating Change in Chicago, and it's like, do you remember me coming back and telling you, John, we're going to start a SAGE program? John Madigan: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Because this is what everybody does. And can you tell me about those first few months, maybe that first year, until we finally got it right? John Madigan: Well, it was just like any gay group. It was about older adults and gay people in this country. In this town, didn't. There was nothing for seniors. That what it is all about? It took a lot of voicing and twisting arms. We're not going to kill you just because you're old. Toby Jenkins: So I think you might remember that first year, you and I would create programs. We would have the Area Aging on Aging come. We would have funeral homes, nursing homes come, and nobody would show up. John Madigan: Some still don't today sometimes. Toby Jenkins: Because we just thought we needed to provide programming agerelated. Well, that was a mistake, wasn't it? John Madigan: Well, it was not what they were thinking. Toby Jenkins: Right. 17 �John Madigan: Process. When we brought them there, and the whole intent was just to have those organizations and how they treated us as senior gay and lesbian people in their entities. Now, how were you gonna be treated after you died when you went to a funeral home? Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: Or you went to a senior center? Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: Were you gonna be put in the back room way down in the hall and they show up every couple of days for you because you're gay? Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So it had an advocacy element of it where while we were networking with these senior serving agencies, we were trying to make them more inclusive. John Madigan: Well, and that's what SAGE was all about. Toby Jenkins: Right. So what was it? We finally did that everybody got with it and they decided they wanted to be a part of it. John Madigan: You convinced Serena to have a gay conference here. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, we hosted. John Madigan: And hosted it. And they finally, oh, okay, that's something cool. Toby Jenkins: So you remember how we began to shift our attention from making them aware of resources to social activity like trips and pool parties and luncheons and entertainment, movie days and book story, book reviews. That's when we really began to see it take off and grow. John Madigan: Oh, yeah, because we did other things then just sit around and talk. Toby Jenkins: Talk about old stuff. John Madigan: Well, about each other. And did things that were interesting to people. Toby Jenkins: And more social. John Madigan: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Creating social opportunity. John Madigan: Yeah. 18 �Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: And the trips went to places where the people that are born, raised and lived and worked in this county had never been there. Never been, oh, I've never been here in all my life. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Museums. John Madigan: Like going down to Fort Gibson. Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: It's been here before the state was a state. Toby Jenkins: Um, yeah, we, activities began to be, in those days we used to have to rent vehicles and eventually we ended up with the equality van. And while we were traveling all over the country going to these things, it was branded so that other people knew about us and how to find us. John Madigan: Well, you couldn't miss it, the advertising name on the vehicle. Toby Jenkins: How did people find SAGE when we started that chapter? Cause we had lots of interesting, do you remember any of the stories about how people just showed up? John Madigan: No, they just showed up and just people come in and say, well, well, first it was something for the senior group and other than, it was geared to them and they felt comfortable. Yeah, the age group was right. Toby Jenkins: What about you? I know you were involved in the veterans wall. Also, our former director, Greg Gatewood, who had been the former director, he used to have an event on Thanksgiving day for older adults who were by themselves. And so I felt like we need to keep that going. Do you remember the days when we finally decided we wanted to create a Thanksgiving dinner here? So people started out as a thing for older adults who were by themselves and then it... John Madigan: Become a community meal. That was giving thanks for us. We had some place to go to and we had a community that you could relate to. Toby Jenkins: And how many people would come to those meals? John Madigan: Couple of hundred. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and who would help provide the food? 19 �John Madigan: The allied churches. Oh, they'd fight each other trying to see who was going to get there. Toby Jenkins: Over who was bringing green beans or… John Madigan: Or cookies or cake. Toby Jenkins: But that was a huge project, wasn't it? John Madigan: Oh, yes. Toby Jenkins: And then we'd prepare the meals for people who couldn't come so they could have these takeaway meals which would be older adults who were shut in and couldn't. So, you've kind of been involved in so many facets of the community. And so, 80 years old, you look marvelous. I know multiple times you've traveled with the organization to conferences, trying to remember all the ones you went to, because every time we went to Creating Change, I would drag you out and make, I know your favorite one must have been when we took 56 people on a bus to Washington, D.C. John Madigan: Well, that was, you're not gonna forget that trip. Toby Jenkins: No, well, especially getting trapped in the Appalachian Mountains, in the fog, and we had to get out and walk through the mountains to keep the bus, oh, gosh, yeah, that was a… John Madigan: And then when we got there, the city shut down. Toby Jenkins: It was in the middle of the government shutdown under Trump, his original residency, and we marched, didn't we, against Trump and his attack on the LGBT community in his first, first term. So, you're 80 years old. And tell me your thoughts about, your thoughts for the future and your suggestions on what might help us improve to make sure everybody's included. John Madigan: Well, right now, in this day and age, is senior mobility. We have seniors, gay and lesbian seniors, at home that would like to come down here, but can't, don't have any availability to transportation. We had a lady, senior, ask us about coming to the OKEQ Senior Group, but she needed transportation. So, you gotta, that way you gotta have somebody to go pick her up, and her, him, didn't know which one it was, but anyway. Toby Jenkins: Would it be possible to work with non-profit organization, or non-profit or governmental transportation modules to be able to figure out a way to get them here? 20 �John Madigan: Well, yeah, there are other organizations in town that have transportation for their groups, but they don't have, can they fit in that, or do they belong to that? Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: Life Senior Services, or the VA? Toby Jenkins: Possibly, y'all could partner with Tulsa, I forget what it's called, the bus system here has... John Madigan: The Lift. Toby Jenkins: The Lift. John Madigan: But then they, there they have to reserve the pickup time, two, three days out. Toby Jenkins: But that could be something that could be coordinated. John Madigan: Could be, yeah. Toby Jenkins: What else do you think is, when you're thinking of, you're youthful, 80 years old, you're eight decades on Planet Earth, what, do you have concerns about our present situations? Just curious, because this won't happen very often, we've got a reallife Canadian across the table from us, how does it make you feel whenever our present White House leadership is so combative and adversarial with Canada, our nearest neighbor? John Madigan: Our present President is, he's an opportunist and an agitator. He loves poke you on the ribs about things, and it's the things that are done behind the scenes. With the LGBT community, we got to be on guard 25-8 to keep what we got, because it'll go out the window in a flash. Most LGBT people think we got it made. Nah, the kids don't have a clue where we started. That's where the history should start. History 101 to the 20-year-olds, what it was like in 1980. Dennis Neill: This being a history project, this is John with Tay and others, when we drop boxes off for them to help support the resurgence of the history project. So maybe ask him a few questions about his experience with that. Toby Jenkins: Dennis has a picture of you and Tay and some other people in there. What year would that have been? 21 �Dennis Neill: I would say, John, probably around 2002 was when Laura and I relaunched the history project. And I was dropping boxes off. Would that be at Tay's house? John Madigan: Yeah, that's Tay Clare”s house. Dennis Neill: There's a few more pictures with a few more people in it. Toby Jenkins: So what we were talking about is all the different things you've been involved in. So you would have been right there. We got the pictures to prove it. As they say, a photo, it didn't happen. Well, there it happened. And we got you... John Madigan: This group of people here that started this were trying to keep it going. A bunch of women. And most of these women went to MCC. And it was still going back then. Toby Jenkins: Metropolitan Community Church. John Madigan: And it was kind of an outreach for them, too. Toby Jenkins: So this would have been when Dennis was a young man. So that would have been 20... John Madigan: When we were all pups. Toby Jenkins: It would be about 2002. And Dr. Laura Belmonte, who would have been our board president at that time, professor at OSU. And you look like you were involved in relaunching, as Dennis and John, his partner John and Laura Belmonte, wanted to relaunch the history archives and the history project. So that's what this picture is. John Madigan: Yeah, they were going through photos that people had for... Going back for 30 years by that time. Toby Jenkins: I loved what you said. We have our archivist, Amanda. I felt like his last line when he said... We've got Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality, and Amanda Thompson, our archivist. I felt like if you're going to have a promotional, John Madigan's line, History 101, I felt like that could have sold why this, what we're doing, is so critical. Anything else, John, as we come to the end of this, our time together, anything else you would want to say? John Madigan: We have to fight. Keep it going. They'll run us down. That's what the young people have to do. 22 �Toby Jenkins: All right. Well, thank you so much. That concludes our interview with John Madigan here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center on January the 13th, 2026, at his youthful 80 years old. Addendum: Photos of volunteers at Tay Clare’s house sorting OkEq archival materials, circa 200 2. 23 �24 �25 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] John Madigan Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Toby Jenkins on January 13, 2026. John explores his life journey from a small mining town in Canada to becoming an influential member in the LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa, Oklahoma. John shares his experiences growing up on a farm, his transition into the oil and gas industry, and his eventual involvement in various LGBTQ+ organizations, including Prime Timers and OkEq Seniors. He reflects on the intersection of faith and sexuality, the challenges faced by the LGBTQ+ community, and the importance of advocacy and inclusion for older adults. John's insights provide a rich narrative of resilience, community, and the ongoing fight for equality. Subject The topic of the resource John Madigan Oral History Project Interview from January 13, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John Madigan, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 13, 2026 2026 interview John Madigan OKEQ Oral History Project OKEQ Seniors oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Prime Timers Primetimers Toby Jenkins transcript video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/d9c8a6149f14a01008d49c6d3f611a9e.pdf b4ccfe0cef6ae75fb4be9ca4125dc32d PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins (and Dennis Neill) Date: March 19, 2026 Edited By: Dennis Neill using Riverside Studio AI, March 21th, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Summary This interview with Pat Hobbs and John Orsulak explores their 36-year relationship, their careers in theater, music, and education, and their activism within the LGBTQ community in Tulsa. They share personal stories, insights on community involvement, and their vision for a more inclusive future. Keywords LGBTQ, Tulsa, theater, activism, community, aging in place, Rainbow Room, cohousing, Pride, advocacy Key Topics  Personal stories of Pat Hobbs and John Orsulak  Their careers in theater, music, and education  Involvement in LGBTQ advocacy and community building  The vision for the Rainbow Room and co-housing in Tulsa Chapters 00:00 Introduction to the Oklahoma LGBTQ History Archives 02:59 Love Story: Pat and John's Journey Together 05:49 Childhood and Early Influences 08:57 Navigating Identity and Sexual Orientation 12:00 The Impact of AIDS on Personal Lives 14:58 Career Paths and Community Involvement 17:49 Theater and Music: A Shared Passion 2 �20:53 Family Dynamics and Acceptance 23:58 Reflections on Life and Legacy 39:31 Theater Memories and Personal Triumphs 42:08 Integrity in Arts Organizations 43:27 Reflections on the Catholic Church and Leadership 45:22 The Journey of Finale's Restaurant 52:40 Y2K and the Impact on Business 54:50 Gardening and Community Living 56:28 The Vision Behind Heartwood Commons 01:01:32 The Role of the Rainbow Room in Tulsa 01:09:42 Theater Community Health and Future 01:14:38 Being a Face of the LGBTQ+ Community 01:18:39 Messages for Future Generations John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Oral History Interview March 19, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Today is March 19th, 2026. We are at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library interviewing today two wonderful people for our Oklahoma LGBTQ History Archives. Present in the room is Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality. Amanda Thompson, our archivist, and Toby Jenkins. Could you tell us your names? Pat Hobbs: I'm Pat Hobbs. John Orsulak: I'm John Orsulak. Toby Jenkins: And just to kick this off, how long have you been together? Pat and John: 36 years. Toby Jenkins: Now, we're interviewing this couple together and then we're going to find out a little bit about their lives. But I think for our purposes today, I'd like to start out with this question, because I know Oprah would ask. How did y'all meet? Pat Hobbs: Oh, Lord. In church. John Orsulak: Well, church rectory. At the time, I was a church music director at a small Catholic church in Bay City, Michigan, birthplace of Madonna. And the staff was invited over to the rectory for Thanksgiving. And the pastor I worked for was gay. Not that that makes any difference. But anyway, he had the staff over. Pat was visiting a mutual friend of ours who happened to be living there at the time. And Pat 3 �came into the kitchen and we started talking about theater. My ex at the time also showed up at the time, and he'd had a few. But we just hit it off and then... go ahead. Pat Hobbs: Well, we hit it off and he invited me to breakfast on Monday before I left town. And we started a long-distance conversation for about a month. And we met for the next time in Chicago for New Year's Eve. And I spent New Year's in Chicago. John Orsulak: I came down for Valentine's. Pat Hobbs: He came down in February to meet Tulsa. It was his Tulsa debut at Jerry Jackson's and Jeff Feist House for a big party. And then it just evolved. John Orsulak: You came in April. Pat Hobbs: I came in April, went back up there. And it was just kind of a decision. Who's got the better job? He was in music and he can do that anywhere. And I had a really good job here at the time. So we just decided to move here. And John moved down July 4th weekend. Toby Jenkins: And what year would that have been? Pat Hobbs: That was 1990. John Orsulak: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: All right. Well, let's find out how you two people became smitten with each other. What led to that moment? Pat, tell us about your childhood and your family. Pat Hobbs: Well, I'm the second of four boys growing up in Southeast Texas. My dad was a lieutenant colonel in the Marines. So we were his four Marine Corps boys. My baby brother was gay. He was five years younger than me. But we didn't realize that until 1990. So I grew up in Beaumont, Texas and spent time at the farm up in Newton County. And just considered myself kind of a country boy at some point. Toby Jenkins: So where did you go to high school? Pat Hobbs: Went to high school in Beaumont, Texas. Toby Jenkins: Beaumont, Texas. And what year did you graduate? Pat Hobbs: 1970. Toby Jenkins: So it's 1970. What was the world like in 1970, your world? Pat Hobbs: Oh, it was hippie time and it was protest time. Protesting the Vietnam War. Nixon was president. A lot of politics going on. But the draft was going on too. And sending kids overseas to fight in a war that we didn't, many of us didn't believe in. Luckily, I had a very high draft number and I didn't go. Toby Jenkins: So you never did get called up? Pat Hobbs: Never got called up. Toby Jenkins: What were your interests in school? 4 �Pat Hobbs: All my interests in high school were band and theater. And when I was in high school, I went with a friend to help him audition. They convinced me to audition and I got the lead. And it was the first thing I'd ever done. So it was one of those real quick things that, oh, this is fun. Toby Jenkins And what was the production? Pat Hobbs: It was a play called See How They Run. Toby Jenkins: Okay, it wasn't a musical. Pat Hobbs: No, we didn't do musicals in high school because the drama department did not speak to the choir department. They were at the same period, so we never did a musical. But I always loved them. Toby Jenkins: So that piqued your interest in performance. Were you in the band? Pat Hobbs: I was in the band, marching band. I played tuba. Toby Jenkins: Tuba. Pat Hobbs: I played tuba in the marching band. Toby Jenkins: And it probably was bigger than you were. Pat Hobbs: It was bigger than me, but you know, I placed first my junior and senior year. I placed first in competition. Toby Jenkins: In tuba. In Texas. Pat Hobbs: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Well, of course you did. You've always been an overachiever. Pat Hobbs: And then I actually won a state award my senior year. I was the first from our high school since 1952 to win a state UIL, University Interscholastic League award for boys' prose reading. And my winning selection was James Thurber's Unicorn in the Garden. Toby Jenkins: Wow, How appropriate. Okay. So this was 1970. Do you happen to remember how many were in your graduating class from Beaumont? Pat Hobbs: 289. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so it was a mid-sized Texas town. Did you go to college after that? Technical school? Pat Hobbs: I went to SMU the following fall and spent four years at. Toby Jenkins: And SMU is? Pat Hobbs: Southern Methodist University. I was a theater major my first year. And it was just a weird time for me because I thought there were a bunch of weirdos in the theater department. I wasn't out, but there were just a lot of weirdos. I mean, gay people. You know, what I thought were gay people. And I ended up transferring over to the business school and got a degree in accounting and finance but kept my love 5 �for theater and performing. And I would do all-school talent shows when it didn't involve the theater. Toby Jenkins: At SMU? Pat Hobbs: Uh-huh, when it didn't involve the theater department, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Did you, by then, you're a college student. Did you, how do you identify? What is your sexual orientation? Pat Hobbs: At college? Toby Jenkins: Well, now. Pat Hobbs: Oh, now I'm gay. Toby Jenkins: Okay, what about at college? Pat Hobbs: I was straight, struggling. Toby Jenkins: Okay, but you had that sexual attraction to persons of the same sex. Pat Hobbs: I did, but, you know, it took a long time to get to the point, to actual coming out. Toby Jenkins: So you got a accounting degree from SMU. Pat Hobbs: I did. Toby Jenkins: And what happened after that? Pat Hobbs: You know, I had a job there in Dallas, and then I was dating a young woman, and she had a family business here in Tulsa. Their accountant retired, so they asked me if I would come to work for them here in Tulsa, so that's how I got to Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: And what year was that? Pat Hobbs: I worked for them, that was in 76, and worked for them until 1987. Toby Jenkins: Now, were you married? Pat Hobbs: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And how long were you married? Pat Hobbs: 11 years. Toby Jenkins: 11 years. Any children? Pat Hobbs: No children. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And during that 11 years, were there any kind of struggles over that? Did you have a sense of insecurity in your sexuality, or were you comfortable in that relationship? 6 �Pat Hobbs: I was very comfortable in it until the last couple of years, and there was this desire to see what's out there, you know? Toby Jenkins: Okay. John, tell us about your childhood. John Orsulak: Oh, gosh. Born in 1954. I'm the youngest of six. I have three brothers, two sisters, and also a stepsister, which was later, after I was an adult. Used to be, I think, current count on nieces and nephews is 13, though I do have some grand, or great, whatever it is, nieces and nephews now, and I think I'm even now getting to the great, great stage, which is weird. Lived in Danville, Illinois, hometown of Dick Van Dyke, Donald O'Connor, Gene Hackman, Bobby Short, and myself. It's mid-size at the time, blue-collar, Hyster, a lot of GM plants and things, they're all shuttered now and the town is kind of drying up sort of. I graduated in 72 from Danville High School, was involved in choir, got involved in junior high and then that transferred into high school. My high school choral teacher, Helen Wolfe, was instrumental in getting me into the drama department or a drama club and I don't, I'm trying to think, I was more behind the scenes than on stage at the time and ended up for some weird quirk the president of the club my senior year. While I was in choir, the music department held their very first two musicals while I was there. My junior year it was Brigadoon. I have a picture that was in the yearbook of me within my kilt with a hand up and it looks very gay, as far as the skirt a little hiked up on the leg. And then the second, the senior year was Little Abner and I was just, I think I was the milkman. But that was really the last theater I did for many years. I went to Danville Junior College to, now it's Community College, and got my degree there. That was the era of Streakers, had my first experience with people streaking down the quad, that was interesting. And then went, transferred to Illinois State University and got my degree in elementary ed. Toby Jenkins: And where was that? John Orsulak: Normal, Illinois. Bloomington Normal, where State Farm is located, their headquarters. Didn't do any theater, got very active with the Newman Club there, was involved in all kind of things. Toby Jenkins: So you were Roman Catholic. John Orsulak: Right, right. Toby Jenkins: Did you, you talked about theater, when did you become a musician? When did you become... John Orsulak: Oh gosh, I did that back as a kid. My grade school that I went to, St. Joseph's, which is no longer in existence, long time. They had a small pipe organ they needed somebody to play. I was, had taken piano and just kind of self-taught myself and would play for services. And then that just kind of evolved over time. I really didn't do anything that I recall in college. When I got out, I had my degree, I worked for the Catholic school. Our parish merged with another one, because that was the time small parishes had to do that. And so I taught at what was then, used to 7 �be St. Patrick's, now is Holy Family. I don't even think it's in existence now. Catholic school was seventh and eighth grade, language arts to start with, was doing no theater at all. Still would do the church music. For me as a kid, it was an escape at recess to go over and practice, just so I didn't have to deal with sports and bullying or anything else on the playground. But a friend of mine who had got her degree in theater at Illinois State, talked me into auditioning for a production, local theater production of Annie Get Your Gun. And so did that, chorus, and then from that point on, I basically got hooked, because the next show I got a featured role, Mr. Snow in Brigadoon, not Brigadoon, [ Pat added Carousel] yeah, that one. Thank you. And then just kind of off and on things there, I decided to get out of education, because I was drawn more toward church music, and went back to the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana to get my undergrad work in music. Had to audition for voice, so I had to take voice as part of it. And when I walked into the audition studio, here is William Warfield. Old Man River himself, sitting there, and I'm singing, you know, I'm in my probably mid-20s by then, and it was, you know, I don't recall anything. It was just kind of a blur. It was just seeing him but did that and then continued working and doing church work, moved to a small parish in Decatur, Illinois, if you know where that is. Was there a year, got fired, didn't work. I was a little too progressive for them because at the Newman Center, it was a very progressive Newman Center, and I mean the priests didn't wear a collar, the the woman who was religious, you know, didn't wear a habit. It was very laid-back, very contemporary. Toby Jenkins: Lots of folk music. John Orsulak: Yes, sang a lot of Godspell, things like that. But I did that and then went back from there, came back to my home parish in Danville, worked there for a while, and then went to Bloomington, which was the sister city of where I went to college, Bloomington Normal. Worked at the church there for a year. It didn't work out, though I did get a chance to participate in the renovation of the church, which was, that was a big deal. It was an old Art Deco style, but then they really stripped a lot out and got it. I don't know what it looks like now. Toby Jenkins: So was your career, just like Pat’s was accounting, was your career in church music? John Orsulak: I thought it was going to be. I did it for, I taught for five years and then went into church music full-time and then when I moved here, that's what I thought I was going to do and continue. And at the time there was only, I think, one parish that had any kind of an opening and just didn't feel, just moving here and experiencing their version of Catholic liturgy, they were so far behind. About ten, I was spoiled with a very progressive bishop and again, he was one that you taught, you called him Ken, you didn't call him Bishop, and it was just very laid-back. During that time when I was in Michigan, it's when I had my first relationship with a man and just kind of then met him [Pat] and the rest was history. Toby Jenkins: So during that time how did you identify and what is your sexual orientation? 8 �John Orsulak: Now I'm definitely gay. Back then it was, I think I'm straight. It didn't really feel right. It was, you know, there was a little experimentation here and there and I had one person at a rehearsal, no, it was a cast party after a show, who pursued me home and I was scared to death. I mean, I went to the garage, turned off the lights, got in the house as quickly as I could, turned off the lights and, you know, now I converse with him occasionally through Facebook and that's, you know, and there's no issue with that at all, but yeah, it was church music for a long time when I moved here and there wasn't anything available. I just went back to what I knew, which was education. So I got back to doing subbing in different school districts. I became popular, so to speak, in Jenks because they got to know me well. They liked me and I was offered a position to open the southeast campus when it first opened and from that point on I worked for Jenks over 20 years, fifth grade mainly. Toby Jenkins: Did Jenks school, did they know you were gay? John Orsulak: I wasn't out, but people knew. They knew and parents figured it out. I think a lot of parents did. The biggest controversy, occasionally he would be with me and I just would sidestep it, but... Pat Hobbs: May I interject here? John Orsulak: Go ahead. Pat Hobbs: So if any of you know about the Malcolm Baldrige Award, it's a highly prestigious award given by the Department of Transportation, no, Department of Commerce. Three or four companies a year win this award. Jenks schools won it. Mesa Products won it three times, twice when I was with them, so we called ourselves the Baldrige Boys. Well, when they made the presentation at the Hyatt, or the Marriott, it's now the Marriott down there, they had a nice little presentation thing at 7 o'clock one night, and I was late getting there, John was sitting at a big table of eight with his principal, and they left the chair open for me to come in next to the principal, and I came in and I sat down, and the principal did this, he actually moved his chair two feet away when I sat next to him. John Orsulak Yeah, that was uncomfortable, to say the least. Pat Hobbs: It was very uncomfortable. Toby Jenkins: And that was what year? John Orsulak: That was, oh gosh, that was... Toward the end. 2 Pat Hobbs: 2011, 20... I was at Mesa seven years, 2010, 2011. Toby Jenkins: So towards the end of your career in teaching at Jenks, did you see the culture change where administration and maybe other teachers were more supportive? John Orsulak: It was never an issue. People met Pat, they were comfortable with him. My co-workers, we never discussed it, but they were fine with him, they had no issues. About the only thing that really was controversial with me was for my 40th, I 9 �decided to pierce my ear. I had just done a production of Annie here locally, had done the whole bald head thing, and I was growing it back. And so I had just a poster, a hoop in. Well, there were parents that were just aghast, and they tried to get me to either, I don't know if they were trying to get rid of the earring or get rid of me, and one of the assistant superintendents, who I knew well and they knew me well, supported me and told them no. And from that point on, it was not... Pat Hobbs: But you even had the support of the superintendent, Kirby Lehman, back then. You know how they do prom pictures in Woodward Park? Every Friday and Saturday night during the spring, you can't find a place to park because all the kids are taking prom pictures. Well, living across the street from the park, our driveway was a turnaround, and we saw Dr. Lehman down the street. He became a really good friend of ours through some work with Theater Tulsa, and he came over and had a glass of wine with us. You know, it was our home, you know, come in while you're getting your pictures made, you know. John Orsulak: What do you do? Do you invite him in? Pat Hobbs: Yeah, invite him in and have a glass of wine. John Orsulak: And that was the year, had a young man drive up in a vintage Mustang with his girlfriend for pictures. And we're out there with a cocktail in hand, gawking at how people are dressed, like we normally did. And this kid looks over to me and says, hi, Mr. O, and he told me his name, and I immediately knew it was a former student of mine, but it was not, it was no big deal. And here are the two of us, I was like, okay, he's figured that out. But, yeah, it's... Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so your house faced Woodward Park. What was the street there? John and Pat: Rockford. Toby Jenkins: Rockford. So, well, you talked a little bit about your career and how you ended up in Tulsa. Did you want to talk any more about what your other interests, like how you got into the theater community here, or, I know you had that day job as an accountant. Pat Hobbs: Oh, yeah, but that was just a day job, you know, it paid the bills. Since 19... I had moved here in 76 and auditioned for a show in 77 for Theater Tulsa and did shows for them ever since. Did shows for all the theater companies here in town just about once, two, three, four times a year, you know, kept it up. Toby Jenkins: I know that you developed a character who became kind of wellknown, kind of a comedian musical character, you want to tell us about that? Pat Hobbs: Danny Day? Danny Day is almost a, oh, I don't know what to call it now…autobiographical story. He started in theater when he was five, playing Tiny Tim. And he was 55, the last time he was on stage he was 55, 60 years old. And he had done all the shows. He had done all the musicals in town. Sometimes two or three times. Sometimes this part. Sometimes he had a lead. Sometimes he had a supporting role. But he knew all the gossip. He knew all the scoop about what was 10 �going on in town. And he knew where the bodies were buried. He knew who slept with whom, and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it was a little character I made up. But it was very autobiographical at the same time. Toby Jenkins: It was very popular. You did it several times. Pat Hobbs: I did, yeah. Toby Jenkins: So you came to Tulsa, what year was it? Pat Hobbs: 76. Toby Jenkins: And I know you were married, and then you divorced. You were in Tulsa, this was, let's talk about before, and then John would have been still in Illinois, correct, during that period. You're men who are figuring yourselves out. Tell me about the first time you heard about AIDS. John Orsulak: Oh gosh. Pat Hobbs: Probably on TV. Probably? John Orsulak: Yeah, I really can't think of a date or a year either. Pat Hobbs: Early to mid 80s. 83, 84, 85. Toby Jenkins: Did you see the impact of that on maybe people that associated with the churches you were working for? Did you see an impact on friends, family? John Orsulak: I didn't really until I moved here. And got involved with the center. Pat Hobbs: And the Names Project. John Orsulak: Yeah, and then Billy. Pat Hobbs: And then my brother. Toby Jenkins: Okay, tell us about that. Pat Hobbs: Billy's five years younger than me. He was born in 1957. And it's a really lovely story, but he came out to me and John. We were all in New York one weekend for New Year's, and he came out to us at the dinner table one night, and we had no idea. I mean, just absolutely no idea. And we had this wonderful relationship for about three or four years. We'd go down to Houston where he lived. He'd come up here to Tulsa. We just had a really grand old gay time. He even had a parking place at J.R.'s, a private parking place at J.R.'s in Houston. He was so popular. But it was right after mother died, and we were, in fact, it was the day after, the afternoon after her funeral, and the four of us boys were sitting on the front porch. You know, it was, the will was cut and dried. We all knew what was gonna go on. And we were talking about the farm, what we were gonna do with the farm. And we're sitting there in our rocking chairs, just rocking back and forth like this. And he stands up and had a cigarette going, and he threw the cigarette out in the yard, and he said, it doesn't make any goddamn difference to me. I'm dying of the 11 �fucking AIDS. And he got up and he walked off in the woods. And about a month later, I got a call from a friend of his in Houston. And he said, I think you need to come down one weekend. You know, come down, see what's going on. So from that point on, John and I, we either drove down or we flew down every other weekend for a year to make sure he had food in the house, care in the house, a clean house, do all the things that we could do from a distance. John Orsulak: And it was right before the cocktail. Pat Hobbs: And it was right before, right before. Toby Jenkins: So it was 1995. Explain the cocktail. Pat Hobbs: 1995. John Orsulak: Gosh, originally it was just ATZ. Then other drugs, combinations came about that helped prolong life. And for Billy, it was just, he was too far gone. Pat Hobbs: Six months, six months. John Orsulak: Luckily he had good hospice care toward the end. Pat Hobbs: We had, yeah, very good hospice care. Toby Jenkins: This would have been what year? Pat Hobbs: 95. Toby Jenkins: And he would have been how old, Pat? Pat Hobbs: 37. Toby Jenkins: 37, yeah. Dennis Neill: Pat, how did your other brothers deal with it? Pat Hobbs: I'm just gonna say that my other brother between the two of us, what do we tell people he died off. That's as much as I'm going to say. But we found a hospice in Houston, Omega House, and it was just like, similar to St. Joseph's here in Tulsa, where the designers had taken a room and designed a room. And it was small, it was there in the Montrose area of Houston. And that's where he spent the last six or eight weeks of his life. And if you recall the pictures you saw on television of people in their last stages, the wasting syndrome, the weight loss, that's what Billy was. His wasn't a, I'm not going to say it wasn't a dignified death. Physically it was not a dignified death. What we did going down there was make sure that he died a dignified death by having food and help and making sure his will was properly prepared before he died. But his was one of the worst, wasting, devastating deaths. John Orsulak: But your nieces were very supportive. Pat Hobbs: They were very supportive. And they were very young, too. Toby Jenkins: Now, you told us that your brother, you and John, had already been together. Had you come out to your family as gay? 12 �Pat Hobbs: You know, I... John Orsulak: First time I met the family was at his father's funeral. Pat Hobbs: At my father's funeral. And, you know, John drove down to Texas and we buried Daddy. And from then on, it was, he was fixing mommy drinks at five o'clock every afternoon. I didn't have to say anything. You know, it was just... Toby Jenkins: So his mother met you. John Orsulak: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Pat Hobbs: And mother's uncle was gay. He had two long-term relationships, Uncle Fred, that we grew up with. So it wasn't a surprise to her. You know, she never said anything. I never said, hey, mom. You know, but he was always there at the house. John Orsulak: Tell the story of when I was moving. When we stopped in Danville. Pat Hobbs: Oh, oh, yeah. This is his dad. So we were moving down from Michigan. And we had a U-Haul van filled with his stuff and had the car towed behind. And we stopped at his folks' house in Danville to spend the night. And it was a tiny little house, and a tiny little bedroom that we were in with a tiny little almost twin bed that we shared. And we got up the next morning and had breakfast and getting ready to move on. And his dad takes me aside. His dad says, take care of my son. John Orsulak: No more words. Pat Hobbs: Take care of my son. John Orsulak: Yeah, it was never discussed. It was just a given. Yeah. Pat Hobbs: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Still welcomed by your family. John and Pat: Oh, very much. John Orsulak: When I come home, where's Pat? Toby Jenkins: Okay. Well, you're fortunate. I think you know that. But you're fortunate that you found each other. And you're fortunate that your families maintain the relationship. Tell us a little bit about some of your, I mean, you both had careers. But tell us a little bit about some of the things that you began to get involved in here in Tulsa. All of the organizations and the things that were passionate to you and the projects. Pat Hobbs: Oh, geez. How can you, you know, over the years, how many boards did I serve on? Including this one, twice. You know, of course, the arts have always been a passion of mine. And I've served on the AHHA board. I was on staff at Mayfest for a while. The Tulsa Garden Center. Anything creative and artistic, I was either on the board or on staff at some point, volunteer staff. And then got involved here at OkEq back in 2001 or 2002, when Brent Ortolani was president. And the previous president was Michelle. Help me out. She's in Kansas now. [Michelle Hoffman.] 13 �Anyway, because of my accounting background, they asked me if I would be treasurer. And this was when the center was located at 21st and Memorial. And I would go down and do the books on Sunday mornings while you'd go to church. I'd go down and do the books at this office we had down there that had no heat. I would bundle up in my coat to go down there. We didn't even have, we had, it wasn't even QuickBooks or Quicken, and it was some very, very elementary software program that we had. And it took maybe a couple hours to go in and write checks. And I think our total budget at the time was maybe $19,000. It was just, yeah, very grassroots at the time, if you will. And the smell from the bar next door, from being open on a Saturday night, I'd come home and have to hang my clothes outside on a Sunday afternoon just to get rid of the smoke that was in the office in the afternoon. But yeah, I served as treasurer for a couple of years until some health issues took over. And I had to relinquish those to Dwight [Kealiher]. And Dwight took over until the organization kept growing and growing and growing. We had $21,000 in the bank. This is one of my reports. 2021. Oh, wow. Just when the Pyramid Project was in its infancy. Toby Jenkins: So John, he said, so were you still playing, doing music for a congregation here at the time? John Orsulak: Not at first. I did do a little bit with one congregation. It didn't last long. Pat Hobbs: You did St. John's for a while. John Orsulak: Right. I was there at Jerome's, but it didn't last terribly long. Toby Jenkins: I think there were some, I don't remember what the reason was, but it just didn't work. Pat Hobbs: Political issues. John Orsulak: Yeah. Yeah. Probably more interpersonal things. But no, I really got back into education. And then because I moved here and we already had the love of theater between us, within a month, I was cast in a show. It wasn't a musical, but started my career with Theater Tulsa and then just kind of branched out into musicals. Toby Jenkins: So when he says he was working on the books and you were at church, are you still active in that? John Orsulak: No. No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. John Orsulak: I haven't been for a long time. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dennis Neill: Excuse me. John, what was your favorite acting role that you've... 14 �John Orsulak: Oh my gosh. That's a tough one. Probably the one that I'm proudest of, it was probably the hardest role I had to do was Juan Peron in Evita. Not only did I have to dye my hair, because it's very gray, the best they could do was a dark brown, but musically it was some of the toughest stuff I ever had to learn. And I'd have to drill and drill and drill because it was very atonal, but it was this critical speech I do on a balcony and just getting through that was a triumph for me because it was a challenge. Otherwise, things came fairly easy, so it was nice to get a challenge that would push you a little bit more. Now, we've kind of aged out. Roles are few and far between. Dennis Neill: So with that Evita role, that was not that long ago, right? John Orsulak: What would you say? 10, 15? Pat Hobbs: It was probably 10 years ago. Dennis Neill: Oh, it was that long ago? Pat Hobbs: Yeah. John Orsulak: Yeah. Dennis Neill: And then Pat, how about you? Your favorite role and then also your favorite board position? All the non-profits you've served on. Pat Hobbs: Oh, my favorite role by far is Zaza, the Drag Queen in La Cage. Dennis Neill: And you did that as Tulsa... Pat Hobbs: Tulsa Project Theater, and it was an equity show, I got equity points. I'm equity eligible for that show. Dennis Neill: And how much did you get paid? Pat Hobbs: Oh, it was a hundred dollars. But the story I like to tell about that is that the end of Act I is when Albin is out there, or Zaza is in her full sequins and feathers and everything, dismisses the entire cast and sings the gay anthem, I Am What I Am, and it closes Act I. And I had the privilege of singing with an 18-piece Tulsa Symphony Orchestra in that show. It's Jerry Herman. It's horns. It's a beautiful orchestration. But here I am on stage by myself for the last five minutes singing this wonderful, wonderful song. And I realized on, it was dress rehearsal, when you're just totally in that role and you're totally singing, and you finish that last number, and you rip that wig off, and the curtain comes down, and there's nobody around you. You've just done the performance of your life, and there is, the cast has gone upstairs to change clothes for Act II. The only person on your left over here is the stage manager who calls curtain. There's nobody else on stage, nobody to catch it. And it's like, so after that happened on dress rehearsal, I asked my co-star Chris, who was my husband in the show, I said, would you please stand offstage on stage right and just hold me when I come off? Because you just exposed every nerve and every emotion in your body singing this wonderful gay anthem. And I just needed 15 �somebody to hold me, you know? So from there on, for every performance, Chris was there to catch me. But I love that. That was my... Dennis Neill: I loved the show. Pat Hobbs: I would love to do that again, too. Favorite board position. Oh, geez. You know, Dennis, my integrity, my professional accounting integrity, has gotten the best of me sometimes, being a board member. And specifically with a couple of arts organizations here in town who were doing the wrong thing and blowing through Harwelden money like they were going to get it next year, you know, get the same amount next year. And they kept blowing through it and they didn't have their policies and procedures in place. I'm not going to say I have the best organization I stayed on, okay, that I served on. But there were some fun moments for all of them. But all of my integrity got to me on a couple of them, really, and just had to walk away. Toby Jenkins: I wanted to ask this. We were... I was going to ask you about... You had worked for these churches and apparently still were connected, so you're no longer involved with the Catholic Church. As a former Catholic, I guess is the way I'd... What do you think about our present Pope? John Orsulak: Hopeful. The previous Pope, I liked him a lot, just he was on the right track. I don't know. I don't still... I'm waiting to see how he deals with people who are gay. The number of people who work for the church who are gay is... I think if people realized that, they'd be astounded. I worked for two gay pastors, very obviously, an assistant. And it's like, okay. Here locally, you just kind of wonder. I see a lot of cassocks and old school looks, and it's like, okay, what are you hiding from? Just not of interest to me anymore. I don't want to play the game. Toby Jenkins: It's still pretty profound though, that the world's number one religious leader for all of Christianity, whether they acknowledge him as their spiritual head, it's pretty significant that the last three or four years we've had a Pope who called us to treat people with dignity regardless of their journey. John Orsulak: John, the current one, he's from Illinois, my home state, and he's a Cubs fan, so you can't beat that. Good combination. Toby Jenkins: He's pretty critical of the United States' present positions on multiple issues, calls us out. Pat and John: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay, I just was curious about that. Now, let me ask you about this. Tell us about Finales. Pat Hobbs: Lord, really? John Orsulak: I need a drink. Pat Hobbs: That was the most expensive MBA anyone has ever gone through. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Pat Hobbs: I think we were kind of like Joseph in The Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat in that we were years ahead of our time, just ahead of our time. We 16 �found a space down here on First Street, and it was my dream to have a restaurant with entertainment, like Lucy and Desi, come down to the club. So we remodeled the first floor of the Jacobs Building down here on First Street and hired James Schrader as our chef, who ended up doing a dang good job of it. We hired people like you. We didn't know what we were doing, but we had fun at it at the same time. We had cast parties for opening night for several of the touring companies that would come in. The opening night cast party for Chicago was our biggest night that we ever had. My God, it was a fabulous evening. Beauty and the Beast, we had their cast party. And for all the local companies here in Tulsa, we have opening night cast parties, a place for people to go. Now they go to Kilkenny's or they go to McNeely's after a show. Toby Jenkins: So your vision was a restaurant with entertainment. Pat Hobbs: With entertainment, and it was before and after the theater. It was within walking distance. It was 476 steps from the Performing Arts Center. So if you're going to the Symphony or the Ballet, come have a nice dinner at 6, walk over to the PAC, come back and have coffee and dessert. Toby Jenkins: And so in those days, downtown was pretty deserted. Pat Hobbs: Oh, downtown. Toby Jenkins: You were it. Pat Hobbs: I think the May Rooms were still open. Toby Jenkins: And then across the railroad tracks was the Spaghetti Warehouse, but that was it. Pat Hobbs: That was it. Toby Jenkins: There were no other restaurants. Pat Hobbs: There was no Art District. Toby Jenkins: No other restaurants. Dennis Neill: And what's the time period? Pat Hobbs: This was 1998. 1998 to 2000. Toby Jenkins: And for our viewers, I was out and I needed a part-time job, and Pat and John, his partner, and his other folks who were there with him, took me under their arm and they taught me how to do fine dining. I didn't know how to, I never drank wine. They had to teach me how to serve it. But it was elegant. Tulsa's power people loved it. Tulsa's people who desired fine dining and entertainment supported it. Pat Hobbs: And we had a 1921 Steinway in the center of the restaurant. John Orsulak: You bought sight unseen. 17 �Pat Hobbs: I bought sight unseen out of California on the internet before they had pictures. John said, this is a drug deal going bad. And they delivered it to our house and I went, oh my God. Toby Jenkins: It was elegant. Pat Hobbs: It was, yeah. Toby Jenkins: But there was nothing in downtown Tulsa. Pat Hobbs: No, there was nothing. Toby Jenkins: Nobody lived in downtown Tulsa. There were no other restaurants. You were definitely pioneers of the revitalization and the restoration of our urban core, which we all take for granted. And younger people today just assume that it's always been like this. Because there was a period when downtown Tulsa was the place to be. And then everything left downtown Tulsa. And you and your colleagues were trying to, you could see it before others couldn't. Pat Hobbs: Well, thank you. Yeah, we just wanted to, the desire was to build it near the Performing Arts, find a place near the Performing Arts Center. And we looked two or three places before then. And the story goes, the name at the time was Finale's Cabaret and Restaurant. That is how we initially, and the word cabaret in Oklahoma in the 1990s did not mean the type of cabaret entertainment you see in New York City. That is musical theater, that's piano, piano bar, cabaret means strip clubs. So we found this place over here on Cincinnati and 2nd, right behind what was then Oklahoma Tire and Supply. It's now the Chinese place. And it was a twostory run-down building and we were gonna buy the building and renovate it. And then the word got over to the Williams Companies that cabaret, that a strip club was gonna open up across the street from the Williams Company's tower. And they came in and bought it out from under us and tore the building down because they didn't want a strip club because cabaret meant strip club. So we hunted for a couple of other places and found this one over on 1st Street, which wasToby Jenkins: And that was an old historical hotel. Pat Hobbs: That was an old historical hotel that was built in 21. Dennis Neill: And who was the landlord? Pat Hobbs: You know, the landlord, the legal landlord that owned the building or the one that... The legal landlord was a guy by the name of Ferretti and he lived in Oklahoma City. And he was this little short Italian guy who drove a big fancy Mercedes. I think he was mob related. But he owned the building and then Mike Sager got involved in it. And Michael Sager was the mouthpiece. And after we vacated the building, Sager had his name put at the top of the building, the Sager, but it's since gone. It's now Jacob, since Jacob's building again. But yeah, Michael Sager was the mouthpiece for Mr. Ferretti. Toby Jenkins: So this was going, and for our viewers, I was a waiter. And that is where I met Mary and Sharon Bishop Baldwin. They were there celebrating their anniversary. I was their waiter. I mean, it was a very, very elegant, impressive place 18 �to be. But I want to bring us to the place of closing night was what was going on in the world, closing night. Pat Hobbs: It was Y2K. You know, we had had, like I said, the night of Chicago was our biggest night. We had a private party in between the dinner hour and the cast party, and it was a big, and something happened in 1999, and the world was predicted to go dark because of the changeover, Y2K, 2000. Everything was gonna go, you're gonna lose your power. Nobody wanted to make New Year's Eve reservations. The year before, we had two turns. We turned that restaurant twice on New Year's Eve. This New Year's Eve, I think we may have had 80 reservations, and that was it. So we ended up catering a dinner for 37 up to the IT people up at Williams. So they, because they were on staff that night because we all knew the lights were gonna go out, and they didn't. Toby Jenkins: Oh yeah, we were afraid planes would fall out of the sky. Your current model cars would just shut down. Your computers would. Pat Hobbs: But you know, we were so hoping. I mean, you know, because restaurants are, you know, your margins are that big in a restaurant. And that was gonna get us through the next few months, you know, what we made off of New Year's Eve, and it just didn't happen. So we just kind of, we turned our own lights out. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so I want our viewers to know that it was Pat Hobbs' idea to revitalize downtown Tulsa. Pat Hobbs: Oh no. Toby Jenkins: And you know, that, in 1999, he saw the vision, and so the city councilors should name a street after you. Pat Hobbs: And like I said, it was a very expensive MBA. Toby Jenkins: So, you're together, you're in Tulsa, you have your careers, you have your interests. Dennis has already questioned you about your involvement in all the non-profits. During this time, what else has been going on in your life, and what was passionate to you? Pat Hobbs: Gardening, gardening. We loved our yard over on Rockford, designed, initially designed by Dave Collins, did a fantastic job. We even brought cypress trees up from the farm. We had some cypress trees cut and Dave designed a beautiful cypress deck for us. And that was our passion for many, many years was our yard. And John's even a Linnaeus, was Woodward Park Teaching Garden. John Orsulak: Yeah, yeah. Formerly Linnaeus. Pat Hobbs: And still, you still volunteer every Tuesday. John Orsulak: Tuesday, now, yeah. Toby Jenkins: With who? John Orsulak: The Teaching Garden at Woodward Park, formerly Linnaeus, that's a whole story. But, yeah, I do that just to keep my fingers in it, because it's, it was, well, 19 �when we moved from the house, we moved downtown for three years while we were waiting for Heartland Commons to be built. And we really had no place to do, I could still go out and do some things at the garden. He had nothing, and it was driving him nuts. And that's been the one blessing of our current home is we've got a yard that's pretty much nothing was there and gave him a place to play. Dennis Neill: And give us a little more background on your thoughts about forming Heartland Commons, your passion about that, some co-housing with you. John Orsulak: Oh, gosh. Pat Hobbs: Okay, real quick, I'll give you the condensed, real quick condensed version. Performer Melanie Fry, we all know Melanie Fry here in town, been performing for 50 years, just did a production of Love Letters back in, for Valentine's. Melanie thought she and her girlfriends would get together and play water volleyball and drink wine in the summertime. And they thought, well, wouldn't this be a great idea if we all, as we age, all bought homes in the same cul-de-sac, and we can all live together and watch and take care of each other. Well, as they researched that, they found the co-housing website, and co-housing was developed in Denmark back in the 60s. And one thing led to another, they had an introductory meeting, Melanie is no longer involved in the project, she was for a little while, but she got us started along with four other families that started this journey back in 2015, I think. John Orsulak: Sounds about right. Pat Hobbs: It's been about 11 years when the initial conversation got started. But it's all about aging in place, keep going. John Orsulak: Well, it's, it's, you get, you, it's about community and having a support network that you can depend on. The house is secondary, it's nice to have, it's a new build, the, you're, you walk through the community to do what you need to do. If you're going to get mail, it's kind of like a condo place where you do that, however, if somebody's on their front porch, in co-housing, you're considered fair game. And you can be, you can visit and interact. If they're on their back porch, you usually leave them alone. That's a private space, but you're walking to get your mail, which normally would take you what, five, 10 minutes, depending on where you were in the community. For us, and that would turn into a half hour or more because you keep running into people who want to visit, who want to interact In some communities, that means a glass of wine, bottle of beer, sitting on the rail of the porch and just interacting and it's, it makes for a healthier lifestyle for older, for senior co-housing compared to traditional co-housing that is multi-generational. But it just enhances, gives you more opportunity for interaction, stimulation. You've got somebody to depend on if you need a ride, if you're needing an egg. You put it out there, somebody, you'll end up with a dozen eggs just because people want to help you out. Toby Jenkins: Very secure. 20 �Pat Hobbs: Very secure. Pat Hobbs: And you kind of look out for each other. John Orsulak: Right. We're basically our own neighborhood watch. That's evolved. We've been there over a year and we've had a few issues, but we've been working them out and had the Riverside Police, which is just two doors down from us, come over one evening and talk to us about safe practices and what to do and what not to do. And it's good to have those relationships. Toby Jenkins: So it's intentional housing, not just organic where you may know your neighbors and they sell their house and a new person moves in and you may not care for them. These are all people you chose to be around. Pat Hobbs: Everybody's become their best friends now. And it's kind of like family too because you have personalities. And sometimes your personality is buttheads, especially in a, what do I want to say, a homeowner's association meeting. And that happens everywhere. But yeah, we have common meals twice or three times a week. And it's where one of the residents will be responsible for buying the provisions. And we have a commercial kitchen in our common house and they are a team will do this evening meal for six o'clock and do the cleanup and everybody chips in $7 for their meal. And we all got, we had how many first St. Patrick's Day about, 28 or 29 of us and had this St. Patrick's meal with corned beef and hash and cabbage and it's community meal. It's all about community. John Orsulak: Yeah, it's got its pros, it's occasional cons. But overall, it's been a good experience. Toby Jenkins: Let me deviate a little bit from this because I do feel like it was good that we talk about that because there are going to be more of us that are older and we, instead of just letting housing happen, this is you purposely planning, this is what… John Orsulak: Oh, we looked at over 50 properties when we were in the area, north, south, east, downtown. And actually, we rejected the property we're currently in originally but came back to it and we realized this is where we want to be. Pat Hobbs: And it's five acres located at 71st and Riverside in that vicinity and it was an old farm, two and a half acres per lot. So we took the five acres and our community pitched in and we bought the property, we secured the bank loan to do the construction. John Orsulak: We designed it. Pat Hobbs: We had consultants come in and design it. John Orsulak: But we have, the nice thing with co-housing is you have input. You're not dictated like a traditional senior living. Nothing wrong with them, if that's your thing, good. But we set the rules. We have our own, we call them agreements that we've developed so that everybody's on the same page. You're not told what to do. You can do as much as you want. If you want to be active, you can be active. If you 21 �want to stay in your home, you can stay at home. We've got a mahjong group. We've got puzzles and TV and movie nights and it's just kind of like, okay, that floats your boat. You can be there. If not, you can just stay at home and curl up with your dog or cat if you have one. And yeah. Toby Jenkins: So thank you for sharing about this because this is, we've covered kind of a lot of areas. I want to, what a lot of people may know you for is here at the Lynn Riggs Theater in the Rainbow Room. Tell us a bit about your, just like Pat had the vision for the revitalization of downtown Tulsa with his pioneering days, he had a vision of he and John the Rainbow Room. And tell us a little bit about your vision for that in the Lynn Riggs Theater. Pat Hobbs: Well, let's go back to the 13 bullets for $13. That kind of, in my view, it kind of kicked this whole thing off when we had to replace the front windows. And that snowballed into basically an international fundraising campaign. But turning the garage downstairs into a theater. Thanks to David Nelson's help and Dennis's help and everybody else, I mean there were dozens of us on that team that were consulting on this thing. But we opened it in February of 2018. 2018, which was eight years ago. And I thought about it for a while and I thought, you know, let's do something fun with it. And I went over, I made the proposal to you, Toby. I remember going over to your house that afternoon and saying, I'd like to do this. Take it to the board or see what you have to do. And came up with the idea of Third Thursdays in the Rainbow Room. Which would be the third Thursday of every month. We do musical presentations. Now I say musical presentations. Tulsa has a plethora of talent in this town. And when people do their 32nd Chamber of Commerce elevator speech, they always talk about the arts. The philharmonic, the symphony, the ballet, the opera. But they don't really talk about the musical theater company. We have such a talented group of people in this town. And that was my vision, is to get some of these people, when they're not doing a show, to come in and do an hour and a half show. Come in and do a two-hour show. Do your own thing. If you want to do a one man show, do a one man show. If you've got half a dozen people, come in. And they're thematic. And I think one of the neatest things that I ever saw come out of this was a knight of musical theater. K-N-I-G-H-T, a knight of musical theater. And it was all songs from Camelot and Something's Rotten and Spamalot. And it was all songs about knights in musical theater. We've had some wonderful talent come through here though. We only had two presentations in 2020 because of COVID. But we've had over 60, 61, I counted them today. We've had 61 individual presentations as part of the third Thursdays. And now it's just Thursdays in the Rainbow Room because you can't just do the third Thursday. There's so much going on in town that people schedule. You've got to have it listed on a Thursday. But we've had 61 different performers. Janet Rutland, who is one of the most talented singers in Northeast Oklahoma, does her show in the Rainbow Room every two years. The latest one she did is around the Hollywood Campfire with John Wooley. And it has taken off, and she has performed that show all around Oklahoma this last year, but she premiered it here. Travis Guillory did his first drag show here. And it was three years ago, so it was 2023, I think he did his first drag Christmas. And look at him, Travis is now Miss Gay America. 22 �Toby Jenkins: Miss Gay America USA. Pat Hobbs: But we've had some wonderful, wonderful talent through this place. And I think it's exposed the center also. Having this little theater down here has exposed the Tulsa community to what we have. Many people have come in to see their friend perform, not just theater friends, but you know, like Janet, some of Janet's followings. They didn't even know it existed. They didn't know the Equality Center existed. You know, so they come down here and they, with our bar now and our seating, you know, they just, it's just like a little nightclub on a Thursday night. Dennis Neill: And Pat, do you think the opportunity for the performers to pocket a little bit of money, is that kind of a unique opportunity for some of these performers compared to the rest of them? Pat Hobbs: You know, absolutely, when you do musical theater, when you do community theater here in Tulsa, you don't get paid. It costs you two or three, $400 a show with meals and gas and costumes. But here you've got a chance to curate your own show. And the split that we've done with ticket sales is that the performers get 70% of the ticket sales. 30% goes back to the center. And you know, in most cases, that's eight, 900, $1,100 that goes back to the performer, you know, which, I don't know, you know, pays your pianist. It keeps, it's just a little enticement to keep people going, you know? Yeah. Dennis Neill: And knowing how important theater has been for both of you all this time, what do you think is the health of our theater community and where do you see it going in the future? Much like we've seen in other groups, there's a lot of small spinoffs and a lot of new theaters emerging. Are we healthy enough to support these and how do you feel like the direction is going to go for live theater? John Orsulak: That concerns me at this stage. Having moved, when I moved here, summer stage was still going on at the Performing Arts Center and that meant that was the only opportunity to do a musical for most, when Pat was doing Little Shop, or not Little Shop, Best Little Whorehouse when I moved here. And that was it. You had one show, one musical, and there were no touring companies coming around as I recall. A lot of straight plays, comedies, dramas, but if you aren't into that, it gave you no avenue. Now, I fear there have become so many splintered groups and so many organizations now within the community that it's almost spread too thin. They have so many opportunities now where these kids can do multiple shows in a year, multiple musicals in a year. But are there enough audience people to support it? It gets expensive. This past month, I don't know how many shows were going on, and the performers who want to go out and support their friends, they can't afford and they have to pick and choose. Okay, I can go to this show, but I'm gonna have to skip this one, or can I get to an IVR to see a rehearsal? Pat Hobbs: Our budget only allows us to go see so much. We're seeing, this is the third weekend of three weekends since we've been back, and it's like, okay, do we want to go? I want to go see my friends, but you know, yeah, there's a finite audience out there, I think, but they're doing some fantastic stuff. They're just doing some awesome, awesome shows. 23 �John Orsulak: And a lot of the, like Theatre Tulsa, for example, they've had ebbs and flows, the dips. So when I was there, it was an upswing, and then it had a major dip funding-wise, and they struggled, and they almost went under. But they clawed their way back up, and they've been able to, I think, restore, you know, there are always things you're always going to disagree with, as far as philosophy or structure. But, you know, Theatre Tulsa has that studio now, that used to be a dollar store, and it seems to be doing well. Pat Hobbs: It kind of makes me mad that they did that, because we've got this beautiful 100-seat theater here that they can use, but now they're using their own, because it doesn't cost them anything, you know? John Orsulak: But the nice thing with this theater, with Lynn Riggs, is it is small. It's a black box, so you have lots of flexibility on how it's used. You've got people, like Eli, running things, as far as the tech part of it. And it's big enough to do some good, solid productions, but it's small enough to be... Pat Hobbs: And we have done some really neat things here. I mean, when the Lynn Riggs can host the Tulsa Opera in a performance of I Love You, You're Perfect, Now Change, and do the job that they did, it was a beautiful production. And even Chamber Music Tulsa, you know, was booked in here. So, it's taken a few years, but, you know, word's getting out. Toby Jenkins: Well, I may be overreaching, and Dennis can slap me, but that's because of you. You made it happen. He made sure the resources were there, but you sold Tulsa on Lynn Riggs' theater. Dennis Neill: Yeah, you've helped bring Bill and Jason aboard to carry on some interesting... Pat Hobbs: I know, and I'm so, so excited about those two guys who bring just another level of energy, another age, another age group, and the way Bill and Jason have embraced the community, and the way the community have embraced Bill and Jason, to have this new Broadway Clubhouse come out here later this month is just so exciting. I can't wait. Toby Jenkins: Okay, I just want to ask you, I had a situation that...How does it feel to be the face of the gay community as an older couple? How does it feel? And by that I'm talking about the day that you were on the front cover of Life Senior Services. Pat Hobbs: Vintage Magazine. Toby Jenkins: Their very first openly gay married couple in Oklahoma. And how did that feel? And did you get any... I know that's incredible support, but I want to know, have y'all had experience pushback at your life in this time? John Orsulak: No, we've been told some people, what, three times over the years. I'm not saying we're normalized, but we certainly were nothing to be afraid of. And we believe in the community. We're the only gay couple at Heartwood Commons. That doesn't mean we won't have more, but we're accepted, we're not shunned. 24 �Pat Hobbs: I just wish that I had a publicist, because all these things just came about. I mean, there was no rhyme or reason. I don't have an agent. To have all these things happen, you know, Tulsa People three times, and Vintage Magazine, and then there's a couple more. They just happen. They just happen. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Vintage Magazine goes to 400,000 people. Did you know that? Pat Hobbs: No, I did not. Toby Jenkins: It's one of the largest senior publications in the country. Pat Hobbs: I feel honored. Well, you know how that came about. Toby Jenkins: No, you tell us. Pat Hobbs: My post-retirement gig at the Garden Center, I was keeping their books, and there was a young gentleman that was doing an internship in communications, coordinating website, Facebook, Instagram, and all of this. Actually, Vintage Tulsa called him to find…they wanted a face for their issue, and he had the office right next to him. He says, hey, Pat, you and John want to do this? I said, okay. It didn't even dawn on me that he could have picked another couple. He could have picked a heterosexual couple. He could have picked an individual. But he just leaned over and said, hey, you and John want to do this? They need somebody for the cover of this magazine. Oh, okay. But we never got any derogatory feedback on that. Never got any hate mail. Toby Jenkins: So you may not have gotten hate mail, and you may not have gotten overt rejection or harassment. As a couple, have there been times when you've known if you were welcome in the room or not? I mean, you talked earlier about the crews. Yeah, the Malcolm Baldrige. Pat Hobbs: Well, the Baldrige Award thing, where the principal moved his chair two feet away. You know, at this day and age, not so much anymore. John Orsulak: Yeah, I just say this is my husband, and like it or love it. Pat Hobbs: You know, honest to God, since the legalization back in 2014, that's what we do. We introduce each other as our husbands, not partner, not roommate. I mean, and it's more accepted, isn’t it? John Orsulak: I just say it. Toby Jenkins: Well, that leads us right into kind of the closing of our time together. What would you say, I mean, our situations, we're seeing so much pushback against our community, on public policy. Today, the lead story in Tulsa, Oklahoma and the Tulsa World was state agencies, not state-funded organizations or agencies or colleges or universities or schools, could not acknowledge Pride Month. They couldn't fly a rainbow flag. Pat Hobbs: Well, let me tell you a story about what happened over at the Garden Center a couple of years ago. Dennis, thank you for the flag. May I tell this story? So, you supplied... 25 �Dennis Neill: Tulsa Progress Flags. Pat Hobbs: Tulsa Progress Flags. And it was flown, the Garden Center manager, Lee, flew it over the teaching garden and was instructed that the only time that the flag could be flown was during the month of June and immediately take it down the first of July. You know, half the staff at the garden center at the time identifies as LGBTQ+. And it was a city, it's city property. Take the flag down. Just made me so mad. You know, and this whole thing with the flag, it doesn't make any sense. What have we done differently over the last 20 years? Why now? Why are you offended? Toby Jenkins: So what would be your messages to those who come after us or for young activists? I always like to say it this way. In a hundred years, archaeologists are going to dig through the ruins of this property and they're going to discover that there was a day in America where there had to be LGBT centers and they uncover our archives. So the archaeologists, when they uncover your interview, what would be your message for the future, for those who come after us, and for young LGBTQ people and who identify as queer today? John Orsulak: Gosh, it's changed so much over the my lifetime. I have a former student of mine, fifth grade. I remember seeing him doing pirouettes on the playground. And I pegged him. At least I thought I did. And then later on, sure enough, and he's very now very active in the arts community here in Tulsa, has a husband, supportive family, and it's just like, oh, you know, it's become normal, much more normalized, and I hope it continues to be normalized where we don't have to live with any fear. That it's just, we're kind of at the point where it's like, I don't give a damn anymore. You know, you live with who I am, how I am, and if you don't like it, then go away or do whatever and I'll survive. I'm a worker bee, so it doesn't bother me. Pat Hobbs: Well, I've got my political comments, some that need to remain. I need to sit on it for a minute, but these bigots out there, these right-wing bigots, why now? What have we done? Like I said, what have we done? You still get your hair cut by a gay barber, okay? You still buy flowers at a gay florist, don't you? I don't understand why this movement is... And the one thing that scares me, though, is that they call them immigration detention centers for all these warehouses, that these empty warehouses, they're going to put all these immigration…I don't think it's going to be mostly for immigrants. I think it's going to turn out they're going to pick and choose what part of society goes in these places. That's just my opinion. I don't think there's enough immigrants to fill up all these warehouses. Toby Jenkins: Any other things for the future or for those who come after us or for today, for people who are wanting to know what to do. John Orsulak: And use your resources, the Equality Center. I hope it survives and continues to flourish because you need this. You need support. You know, if you're not alone, they need to know that. Pat Hobbs: The one thing I have learned from the Rainbow Room and the people who come here is that we are designated here at OkEq as a safe place. Always have been. And I guess it was during Pride or maybe that first Pride piano thing that we 26 �had a couple of years ago. But I had a lady come up to me and say, I feel safe here. Yes, that's why we need this place. Toby Jenkins: Well, it is March 19th, 2026 and today our interviewees, our special guests have been John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs. And they've been together 36 years. And joining us have been Dennis Neill, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, and Amanda Thompson, the archivist. And this is Toby Jenkins. Thank you so much for tuning in. 27 � https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/0655db9527d9c965e3ae77cf9ab9ecd7.mp4 5fe3a81c4475dc5db209b6fe8bc46c29 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Interview Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John Orsulak, Pat Hobbs, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 19, 2026 Subject The topic of the resource John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Oral History Interview from March 19, 2026 Description An account of the resource This interview with Pat Hobbs and John Orsulak explores their 36-year relationship following a chance encounter at a church, their careers and longtime involvement in theater and music. They also highlight their activism within the LGBTQ community in Tulsa and the vision they had and implemented to bring the Lynn Riggs Theatre at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center to life. They share personal stories, including the passing of Pat’s brother to AIDS, insights on community involvement, and their vision for a more inclusive future. 2026 AIDS AIDS/HIV Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill HIV/AIDs interview John Orsulak Lynn Riggs Theatre OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Pat Hobbs Toby Jenkins transcript video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Laura Arrowsmith Interview Subject The topic of the resource Laura Arrowsmith Oral History Interview from April 23, 2026 Description An account of the resource In this compelling interview, Dr. Laura Arrowsmith shares her personal journey of living as a transgender woman, her medical transition, and her advocacy work in Oklahoma. Her story highlights resilience, medical insights, and the importance of authenticity. This interview with Dr. Laura Arrowsmith explores her journey as a transgender advocate, medical professional, and community leader. She shares insights on medical treatments, advocacy efforts, challenges faced due to political attacks, and her vision for future support for transgender individuals. <strong>Available for onsite research with advance permission.</strong> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 23, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Laura Arrowsmith, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill 2026 activism advocacy Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill discrimination education healthcare interview Laura Arrowsmith OKEQ History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Toby Jenkins transcript Transgender video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Prime Timers' Prime News Subject The topic of the resource Tulsa Area Prime Timers Newsletter "Prime News" Description An account of the resource 2 issues of Volume 33 of the "Prime News" monthly newsletter published by the Tulsa Area Primer Timers for 2026. It features prior meeting minutes and a calendar of events for each month. <strong>Available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tulsa Area Prime Timers Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2026 2026 2026 Gala available at Center Bob Blum calendar Dennis R. Neill Equality Center Equality Center gala Jeff Nguyen John Madigan Newsletter OkEq Equality Center OKEQ Gala OKEQ Seniors Prime Timers Primetimers Richard Lindsay Steven Dubois TAPT Tulsa Area Prime Timers Tulsa Area Prime Timers (TAPT) Tulsa Area Primetimers Warren Duvall https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e5058728974a0f195bd8900e5e7c92a9.jpg 200a294d14881d81dd06ce84750b1c0f https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/0dd0cb24915e78deb62c6fbaf1d3e07d.pdf 20d176b1914b1b1833c44428a7b6656c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert (Bob) Odle Oral History Interview - Feb. 19, 2026 Transcript PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Robert (Bob) Odle Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins (and Dennis Neill) Date: February 19, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, March 13, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Robert (Bob) Odle Summary This interview with Bob Odle offers a deep dive into his life as a gay man, theater professional, and community advocate. Covering his personal journey, the impact of historical events, and insights into Tulsa's cultural scene, it provides valuable lessons on resilience, identity, and activism. Keywords LGBTQ history, theater, Tulsa, activism, personal story, AIDS, gay community, cultural history Key Topics    Bob Odle's personal history and identity The impact of historical events like JFK's assassination and AIDS crisis The development of theater and LGBTQ community in Tulsa Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background of Bob Odle 02:57 Early Life and Education 05:59 College Experience and Sexual Orientation 08:58 Military Draft and Sexual Identity 2 �11:50 Teaching Career and Coming Out 14:47 Theater Involvement and Gay Community Connections 17:48 Reflections on the LGBTQ+ Experience 20:57 Teaching Philosophy and Curriculum Development 23:56 Theater Companies and Professional Acting 39:52 Theatre Roots and Early Involvement 41:12 Memorable Performances and Traditions 43:39 The Birth of World Action Singers 48:06 The Evolution of Theatre Spaces in Tulsa 53:00 Theater Community Support and Changes 56:39 The Lynn Riggs Theater and Community Engagement 01:02:33 Impact of the Pandemic on Theatre 01:05:27 Personal Loss and Community Involvement 01:08:20 Political Climate and Advocacy 01:10:58 Concerns for Arts and Rights 01:20:21 A Message for Future Generations Robert (Bob) Odle Oral History Interview Feb 19, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Today is February the 19th, 2026. We are at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in downtown Tulsa, Oklahoma, in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library, and we are doing archival work and interview today, and joining me for the interview is Amanda Thompson, our archivist and the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, Dennis Neill. This is Toby Jenkins. Today, viewers, we are very fortunate to have a very special guest. Tell us your name and your date of birth and your address. Bob Odle: Bob Odle, Robert Odle. Date of birth is May 15th, 1945. Bob Odle: My address is XXX in Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: Thank you so much. We're here today, and I want us to tell...you've had such an interesting life, and I want to make sure we get everything, and we appreciate our viewers' interest in this, and so this is...we're going to give you some history that you might have a little trouble finding, so we're going to put it in one place where our viewers can find this information. Do you want me to call you Bob or Robert? Bob Odle: Bob. Everybody calls me Bob, except my sixth-grade art teacher. Toby Jenkins: What are your pronouns? How do you identify your gender? Bob Odle: Mr. He. Toby Jenkins: So, you identify as male? Bob Odle: Yes. 3 �Toby Jenkins: Okay, and could you just, for our time together, we're gonna...how do you identify in your sexual orientation, your...how do you identify? Bob Odle: Well, I'm queer as a $3 bill. Toby Jenkins: Okay, good. So, it's good to know, and for our historical people, that was a phrase we used a lot when we were growing up as kids. Bob Odle: Well, I just heard about the origin of the $3 bill just within the past week. During this Civil War, some of the southern states, as I recall, didn't have really enough gold, and so they issued those $3 bills, or maybe it was the American Revolution. I don't remember, but it was some revolutionaries, and they issued worthless money, and it was $3 bills. Toby Jenkins: So, that's why we have it. That's why they always used it on us. Where were you born? Bob Odle: I was born in Kansas City, Missouri. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Bob Odle: Research Hospital. Toby Jenkins: Is your family from Kansas City, Missouri? Bob Odle: Most of my...the Bell side of the family is from Missouri. My four-times greatgrandmother came to Missouri with Daniel and Nathan Boone. Nathan Boone is buried not far from where she's buried, and so most of my relatives are there. The...and the Rileys are there, once they came to this country. The Odles are scattered around western part of Virginia. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Now, when you say she's buried up in Missouri, is she buried near Boone's Lick? (Editor’s note Boone's Lick is the historical site where Daniel Boone’s sons settled around Franklin Missouri.) Bob Odle: Oh, no, that's much farther north. Nathan Boone is much closer to Springfield, and it's a little country cemetery that is largely a family cemetery. I mean, I'm related by blood or marriage to most of the people who are in that cemetery, so she's buried there where the other Bells and the Rileys are. Toby Jenkins: And so you were...your family was in Kansas City at this time, or...? Bob Odle: Yes, they had moved...my grandmother and grandfather had moved to Kansas City, and I think most of my...all of my aunts and uncles were born in Kansas City, and my mother was born there, and...and so that's...that's where I was born. Toby Jenkins: Now, did you grow up there? I mean, was that what you spent your childhood? Bob Odle: Yes. I went to Munger Elementary School, which was named after a farmer who donated that land to the school district, and it was a little eight-room, four downstairs and four 4 �upstairs schoolhouse with a prefab outside for the 7th and 8th grades, and 6th and 7th grades. And so I went to Munger for the first three years, and then North Kansas City had a bond issue, and they built some new schools because that area of Kansas City was growing. They built right across the street from Munger, they built Oak Ridge and just a few blocks from us they built Maplewood. I went to Maplewood for the fourth and fifth grades and then my mother remarried and we moved to Tulsa, Oklahoma where I went to Luther Burbank for one year. TPS has recently sold that building. And then I went to Bell Junior High for two and a half years and then we moved over to 27th Street and I finished the ninth grade and went through high school at Nathan Hale and then got a scholarship to the University of Tulsa. I applied various places but TU gave me a scholarship that paid half of my tuition which was $600 a year. Toby Jenkins: And what year would that have been that you graduated? Bob Odle: I graduated from Nathan Hale in 63 and from TU in 67. Toby Jenkins: And how new was Nathan Hale? Was it a pretty new high school? Bob Odle: It was brand new that first year I went there. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember what your graduating class, how many were in your graduating class? Bob Odle: I contend there were 450 but some people, some members of my class say there were fewer than that. I don't know, I haven't counted the pictures in the yearbook. I keep thinking I must do that and I haven't. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, by the 70s it was up in the 2000s. Bob Odle: Yes, they added a wing. Toby Jenkins: But I think today Nathan Hale's graduating class is about 200. Bob Odle: Well, yeah, they added classrooms to the building. Quite a few classrooms after I graduated. Toby Jenkins: So was your family glad that you were going to school in Tulsa instead of getting accepted someplace else? Bob Odle: Well, they were glad I got a scholarship which was $300 which paid half of my tuition. And my books altogether, my books cost less than $100. Toby Jenkins: I don't think I ever paid $100. What did you study at TU? Bob Odle: I was a theater major. Toby Jenkins: And so this would have been in 1963 when you graduated. What was going on in our country at that time? I mean this was shortly after Kennedy had been assassinated. 5 �Bob Odle: No, it was when he was assassinated. That was a sad day that I remember that day. And the several days afterwards when we had no commercial TV. And Channel 2 played Handel's Largo during all of the station breaks. And we went until Monday after the funeral with no commercials on TV. And 24-hour coverage of the funeral and people visiting the White House and the Capitol. Toby Jenkins: Were you in school when y'all heard this news? Bob Odle: It was just my first time at the Baptist Student Union. They should have told me never to go back. My first time there and I went to class and a friend of mine who had a little portable radio said the president has been shot. And what's he talking about? He's crazy. And then it was during that class, I had humanities at 1 o'clock. It was during that class then that it was announced that the president was dead. I gave a friend a ride home and we listened to the radio. And the radio was covering the funeral and the death of the president. Toby Jenkins: And this would have been your freshman year? Bob Odle: It was my freshman year, yeah. It was a sad day. It was a sad several days. Couldn't believe that in the 20th century a president would be assassinated. I just couldn't believe that. Toby Jenkins: What were you studying at TU? Bob Odle: I was majoring in theater. I had a minor in English lit and a minor in education so I could get my teaching certificate. It was then, and I didn't know this until, I was so naive. I'm incredibly naive, even now. I heard after the first show that the person who played the lead and some other people were gay and, what? And so, later, I think the person who told me that had the hots for me for years. I think I later found out more and more people in the theater department, which is where I hung out, were gay and, oh, okay, I didn't know that. I had no idea. Toby Jenkins: Did you understand what that meant? Bob Odle: Oh yeah, I understood what it meant, but I just didn't know that they were gay and that there were so many. Toby Jenkins: So you were like in Gay Head Start, the theater department at TU. Did you, had you by that time, I mean, by then you're 18, adult, and you're a young male college student. Had you begin to realize about your own sexual orientation or was it? Bob Odle: Yeah, I went through a period, and I think it's not unusual, of denial. And, let's see, I was molested when I was like 12 years old, and I didn't know, I just, I didn't know anything about that. I just, it was when I was 15, I finally said, no, I don't want to do that anymore. Well, I didn't want to do it with somebody older, I wanted to do it with some of my classmates. And I remember when I was like in the seventh grade at Bell, the day we all suited up in our white tshirts and our white gym shorts and our white tennis shoes. And I walked, there were these other boys, and whoa, wow, I mean, this thrill went through me. Whoa, whoa. And so... 6 �Toby Jenkins: So you're in college, and you're in this program, and I guess it was gossip people were talking about people being gay. Bob Odle: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Was it in college that you began to, I mean, did you have a relationship with another student, a person, or? Bob Odle: No, not really, but there was one person who was in my English class who I had seen go to the, it was the Baptist student union, that was the reason I went that one day, and I went back subsequently. I did have the hots for him, and it was, he dropped out of school, I think, after the first semester of our freshman year. And in the past year or so have found out, I suspect he was killed in Vietnam. I suspect he joined the army, that school wasn't really for him. And when he didn't show up at any of our classes, and he was no longer on campus, I did feel like my heart was broken. I mean, I really had a crush on him. Toby Jenkins: So when he left school, I mean, you didn't know where he went, and so did you quit going to the Baptist Student Union after that? Bob Odle: No, I continued to go because I knew some other people who were there. Toby Jenkins: What was TU like in those days, in the 60s? Bob Odle: We had to wear our freshman beanies for the first six weeks. I still have mine somewhere, I tried to find it for the 50th anniversary, that's when I, oh no, this was 50 years after graduation. It was red, alternate red and yellow panels with a red 67 in the front panel, and we had to wear those for the first six weeks, I mean, that was the rule. We had to go to orientation like once a week. We had to take six hours of religion. I took Old Testament history and origin and principles of Christianity. Bob Odle: Later, they reorganized and we didn't have to take any religion, and I'd already taken six hours, and so we had to go to chapel, I don't know, maybe once at least…. Toby Jenkins: A week, once a week, or once a semester? Bob Odle: No, I think once in the first six weeks. The class of 68 had blue beanies with yellow 68 on the front. That was the last class, I think, that had to wear beanies. Toby Jenkins: About how many students do you think were at TU at that time? Bob Odle: I think they've held steady at about 4,000 to 5,000. Toby Jenkins: And so that would have been at the time when Tulsa was the oil capital of the world and TU was known as the top geology, or what am I saying? Petroleum engineer. Yeah, petroleum engineer. 7 �Bob Odle: There was one guy in the theater department who was from Egypt and he was in theater, but he, I think, came for petroleum engineering, which is why a lot of people were there from other states. Toby Jenkins: So you talked about the military and the Vietnam War. Tell us about that. Were there lots of students who were leaving? Bob Odle: I was not aware of any at that time because I graduated in 67, so the buildup, I think, started in 65, but I was not... We had student deferments as long as we were in school. Toby Jenkins: Were you in the military? Bob Odle: No, never. They didn't want me because I was gay. Toby Jenkins: You remember your draft number? Were you subject to a potential call-up? Bob Odle: I don't remember that. That's been so long ago. Toby Jenkins: So they didn't want you because you were gay. Tell us about that. I mean, by then, you were acknowledging…? Bob Odle: Well, I remember they had me come in and talk. There was a sergeant who was in charge of all of the physical examination and whatnot and he had me talk to a captain who asked me if I was sure I was gay, if I was just saying that. He said, I've always remembered, he said, you know this will go on your permanent record. Toby Jenkins: So you actually had to fill out a form that said that? Bob Odle: Yes. That was when... It was like an alumni meeting. All the guys I knew from high school were on the same bus, and some friends from junior high who went to Will Rogers were on the same bus going to Oklahoma City. That was part of what we did that day, was we had to sit down and fill out these forms about what diseases we'd had and if we had homosexual tendencies. So we had to actually fill out a form. Toby Jenkins: You felt like you needed to be honest? Bob Odle: Well, yeah, because I was going to go to law school, and I did go to law school for a while. So I thought, well, I can't lie on this. I think there was a small print that said it was a federal crime or something, and so I didn't want to lie. Toby Jenkins: So the captain tried to talk you out of it, is what you're saying? Bob Odle: He wanted to make sure that I wasn't just... Because a friend of mine said, I remember a party and he was talking about how... He had a high lottery number, so he wasn't chosen, but he said he had the choice of going to Canada or he could queer out. So apparently there were other people who were signing, yeah, they were gay. They had homosexual tendencies or whatever the wording changed to, and so apparently they had encountered that before, people lying about being gay. 8 �Toby Jenkins: This is fascinating to me. I don't know that I've ever had anybody talk about this. I don't know if I've ever interviewed somebody and them talk about the details of that and the possibility that the military wanted to make sure you weren't just using something. So I'm just curious, were you in a room with several people when you were asked this, or was it more of a private discussion? Bob Odle: Well, there was a big classroom with student desks for us to fill out the form, but then the sergeant... I was in a room, an office with the sergeant and a couple other non-coms. He said it would be better to get rid of me then than to go ahead and have me sworn in and have me booted out of the military for being gay. But he decided for some odd reason to have me talk to this, I guess, doctor who was a captain. I mean, I have no idea. They just know he was a captain and they sent me into his office for him to question me about that. Toby Jenkins: So you were able to avoid military service. Do you remember, I mean, you were a college student during these days. I don't know necessarily when… Bob Odle: Well, this was after I graduated that I got that. And it was after I'd taught for a year, too. But teachers had deferments. I mean, I was originally taken after I graduated with this busload of alumni, people I'd known in high school. And then the school board, I got a job teaching and the school board appealed that. And they had just gotten this draft board… I went before these old men. Toby Jenkins: Where were you teaching? Bob Odle: At Central High School, which was downtown. Toby Jenkins: The major campus that's still down there today. Bob Odle: Yeah, PSO owns it now, and AEP. And they had gotten something from Washington that they should give teachers who were teaching deferments or something like that. But I was drafted in the meantime. And so the public schools protested. But it wasn't that I got out of the military. The military didn't want me. Toby Jenkins: Very, very interesting. So well said. Bob Odle: Well, I know of other gay people who've had military experience. Well, and I have one friend who used to live in Tulsa, who lives somewhere in Dallas, I think, now. He was booted out of the Navy and was not happy with being booted out. I mean, there are a lot of gays who want to serve their country and be in the military. But we were not allowed to. And those who were drafted—and I have a friend who was investigated by the Naval Intelligence for a while. They trailed him. And I don't know if he was court-martialed or not. He stayed in the Navy for years and retired as a lieutenant commander. Some of his friends at his funeral said he would have been a commander had there not been that investigation. But he would sometimes go into bathhouses in San Diego or San Francisco in order to have the people who were tailing him leave him alone. 9 �Toby Jenkins: To make them have to follow him in there? Bob Odle: They wouldn't follow him in there. Toby Jenkins: So you said you finished TU and then you started teaching. Bob Odle: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And you had to get a teacher's certificate. Now, I'm just curious, you're teaching—what did you teach at Central High School? Bob Odle: Competitive speech and drama. Toby Jenkins: So you would have probably been my instructor because that's the kind of stuff I was in in high school. So you were teaching…This would have had you probably 21, 22? Bob Odle: I was just barely 22 when I started teaching. And I taught for four years. My goal was to teach for four years, save some money, and go to law school full-time. I went to law school part-time, but I quit to go full-time, and that was about the time we started doing theater. And I thought, well really, I'd rather be an actor than be an attorney. And so I dropped out of law school. My mother was not happy with it. She got over that eventually. Toby Jenkins: So you're a young adult. Had you begun to have romantic relationships with men, or had you connected to the gay community? I mean, you were teaching school. Bob Odle: Well, I had a lot of friends who, being in theater, I had a lot of friends who were gay, and pretty much openly gay. And so, you know, I would think about that, you know. And eventually, after I was doing theater, and eventually, after years went by, because I was in a state of denial. I mean, I lived with a woman for a while. And... But it was because I was in a state of denial, which is not uncommon, I think, and so eventually when we broke up, because it was not destined to be, she lives with her second husband in South Carolina, I think, and I contact her periodically, or she contacts me. But I didn't really have, I still was so closeted. A lot of people probably knew, but it was sometime then, sometime around 1980, I think, that is after we moved into the Brook Theater in 79, it was about 1980 that I decided to go to, well I had been to, I mentioned this at the breakfast the other day, I had been to Saddle Tramps in Oklahoma City years before. I had no idea it was a gay bar. I mean, when I was, I had done Tea House of the August Moon in Tulsa, and then I was asked to join the touring company in Oklahoma City. So I went down to Oklahoma City, and friends put me on a bus, and I went down there, and I saw this limousine parked across from the bus station, and I thought, well it'd be neat if that was for me. It was! The owner of the theater had a huge Cadillac limousine, and I mean the big, stretched thing, and so he took me to the theater, and there were a couple of people in that play, that were in that cast, that were gay. And then I did another tour, and I think some people were gay, and then a lot of people I knew from the theater were gay. 10 �And a friend moved back for a short time to help us open The Brook, I think, with his boyfriend from New York, and they lived together. And so all of this was like, you know, making an impression on me. And so finally in about 1980, well I was going to tell you about Saddle Tramps. The manager of the Gaslight, we were dark on Monday nights, and so one Monday night, and every other Monday we got paid. And so it was a Monday we got paid, and so we all decided to go to dinner, and we went to the Haunted House, which you have to have reservations before they will tell you the address. It's a fabulous old mansion somewhere in northeast Oklahoma City, and they had fabulous food. And so we went there, and those who didn't have cars, because some people had their own cars, but I'd left mine, I'd taken the bus to Oklahoma City. I was in the manager's limousine with some other people, who I think back, I think at least two of them were gay, maybe three of them were gay. And so we went to the manager's house for a little while, and he lived somewhere in northeast Oklahoma City, and not far from the theater as I recall. But anyway, then we went to a bar. He decided, let's go to a bar. So well, I know the bar we'll go to, and we'll go to this bar. Well, it was Saddle Tramps. I didn't know. And it was a Monday night, so nobody was there except us and maybe a couple other people and the bartender. And I went in to use the restroom at one point, and there was a toilet sitting right in the middle of the floor, and there was a bathtub also there. And this is strange. And so I went out and I told the others, you've got to see that restroom. And so that was the first time. Then later on, somehow a friend of a good friend of mine who had been a colleague in teaching and who'd lived just two doors down from when we first moved to Tulsa, her friend was doing drag for the first time at a place called, I think, the Stage Door on Main. And so a group of us went to see him do drag for the first time, and he was not very good, but there was this person in a mini skirt, a mini dress that had flowers on it, and a bouffant wig, who did Harper Valley PTA, was fabulous. And so that was my first time. So later then, I decided to go to a gay bar, and I went to one called, I think, Caruso's, also on Main, maybe a little bit south of where Stage Door had by that time, I think, become a parking lot, as much of downtown Tulsa is. I went to Caruso's, and I went there a few times, and then I decided to branch out and try some others. And I'd heard of people going to Oklahoma City and staying at what was then called the Pepper Tree, it was the Habana, and now it's a different name, and why it's not the Habana, because it's been Habana since it opened in the 1960s. Because I went there as a school teacher, we had our speech convention at the Habana when it was a Best Western. And little did I know that right next door was Saddle Tramps. And because I had, you know, it was dark, and I was being toted around in this limousine, had no idea where I was or what was going on. And so, I heard of people going there, and so I went down there, and I discovered all of the bars in the hotel and on the Strip. And... Toby Jenkins: So during this time, I know you were an actor in the theater companies, and obviously a professional actor, you were being paid. Were you still teaching at this time? 11 �Bob Odle: No, I went back to teaching after, in 1990, I believe. I worked in theater and doing workshops in schools all over the state. And I went back to teaching. A friend of mine, because the oil companies who had given us money had moved to Houston, so they could be hit by hurricanes and flooded by hurricanes. And so a friend of mine suggested, why don't you go back and get your teaching certificate? So at his urging, I did. And so I got a job teaching. I deducted my trips to Oklahoma City for our annual convention for my income tax, because the motel, I had to have a motel while I was down there. I deducted that for my income tax. I went down there and I would always stay at the Habana, and then there were all those bars right there. Toby Jenkins: So I know that was the gay district still, I guess, today is considered that. So during this time, had you ever come out as openly gay to your other theater friends and folks? I mean, had you pretty well, you said about 1979 was when you began to connect to the gay community. Had you told other people that you were gay? Bob Odle: No, not until the friend who'd come here for the opening of The Brook went back to New York, and he'd come back Christmas to be with his parents. And so after a show, I said, why don't we go to a bar? I know a bar at 18th and Main. So we went to Renegades. And then later we went to Tim's Playroom at 11th and Lewis. And that was the most fun. That was a fun bar. Then, later in the 80s, I went to New Orleans and discovered just about all the bars in the French Quarter and some in the Marigny, and met a person who had been a student at Central High School when I was a teacher there. We went to see a play over at the Marigny Theater, which is connected with a bar and around the corner from some other bars. He died, oh, it's been several years ago, and he had heart problems. He was very intelligent, talented, and so I started making sometimes four trips per year to New Orleans. Certainly, I've gone there every year for about 30 years. When the bathhouse closed down there, I went into mourning for two years. I thought about, should I leave a bouquet of condoms and lube outside the front door? Because people leave bouquets of things. I mean, I was like, I miss that. That was a fun bathhouse. After Katrina, it was a member of the club baths, and I had a club card, and they were good at the club baths all over the country. I went to some of the others, and they were not as good as the Club New Orleans. Toby Jenkins: Were you teaching during this time? Bob Odle: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Were you able to be openly gay? In the early days when you got the deferment, I know the school board was addressing their teacher's deferments. Did anybody at your school know that you had got a deferment because you told them you were gay? Bob Odle: No. 12 �Toby Jenkins: Okay. Then while you were teaching here in Oklahoma, were you openly gay? I mean, did your students know you were gay? Did your principal, your ... Bob Odle: No, not that I know of. I think some suspected, but nobody really cared. I was there to teach speech, and I was focused on that. That was my job, and I was focused on doing that, and I also had a humanities class, and I was focused on spreading this notion of the arts, all of the arts, through the ages. I put together a thing on humanities for the first two years myself until ... It took two years before I found a book that also covered Asia, because of my philosophy that we're too Eurocentric, and kids needed to know. I sandwiched into a short period of time 6,000 years of Chinese and Japanese and Indian Middle Eastern art, which is not doing it ... I mean, that should have been a separate class, but it wasn't, and so I wanted kids exposed to that. Toby Jenkins: So that was curriculum? You were writing curriculum for that? Bob Odle: Yes, I did. Toby Jenkins: Okay. What theater companies were you involved in? You talked about you were a paid actor. Bob Odle: Yeah, I worked with American Theater Company for years, and also during some down times when we didn't do many shows, I also worked with Gaslight. Toby Jenkins: Okay. How long were you involved with American Theater Company? Bob Odle: From its inception in 1970 until ... Well, I did a show 2006, 2008. For four years in a row, we did the Rocky Horror Show, the original stage musical, which is much better than the movie. I frequently think that is the case, that things on stage don't translate to film. Toby Jenkins: Live theater is better. Bob Odle: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So how many years would that have been with American Theater Company? Forty? Bob Odle: Well, man. Bob Odle: 70 to almost, yeah, almost 40, 37 or so, I worked. I was on the board after that, for some time after that, but I was just too busy to do shows. And so, you know, but I was still affiliated with the theater, but I've not been on the board for like three years now. Toby Jenkins: What performances were you in, what shows? Bob Odle: Well, on my tombstone, which I have already bought, and it is, although I intend to be cremated and have my ashes scattered, my tombstone, which is next to my mother and stepfathers, and near my grandparents and great-grandparents and so on and so forth, yeah, that's Karl Krauss as Ebenezer Scrooge. And Karl has played that role for years and years. And 13 �so, you know, that's me as Brother Oral Love. That's one of the things on my tombstone. I had Robert, I think Robert Leonard Odle, because I'm named after both of my grandfathers. That was a thing in my family for a while after both grandfathers or grandmothers. And so I have Brother Love and Tartuffe, Captain Hook, and there's one other that I keep forgetting, but it's one of my favorite roles I ever played. But those are three of the ones. Toby Jenkins: So I know Christmas, Carol, is kind of like a Christmas tradition. Bob Odle: I know, I never, the second year we did it, one of the reviewers for one of the Tulsa papers said, this needs to be a tradition. And I thought, and well, it has become that. This is, I mean, this fall will be 50 years since Rick and I wrote that. Toby Jenkins: Well, I'll just let you know whether you are surprised that it became a tradition. In my family, I took my children to see it, and now I have grandchildren, and all of us have made it a part of our Christmas tradition. We don't go every year, but we've been multiple times. Bob Odle: I go every year. I mean, I love that story. It's a great story about giving. Dennis Neill: We spent a little more time talking about Joyce Martel and the Oral Action Singers, how that originated and your role in it and the longevity of that show. And did ATC actually own the Brook at that point in time? Bob Odle: No, we rented it or leased it, I don't remember which. But, well, Jerry Pope and Rick Averill and I, Rick always wrote the music. Jerry and I would, he would write one scene, I would write another scene and so on until we wrote the play. And it's about, it was essentially about balanced growth in Tulsa and the reason we didn't have balanced growth. And we did some stereotypical characters. And one was this religious figure, which we called in that musical, Seth Righteous. And so that sort of began it. Then a year later at Cain's, we opened and ran a month with Joyce Martel is Alive and Well and Living in Paris, Texas. I think that title was based on something that was on T, Jacques Brel is Alive and Well and Living in Paris or something. Anyway, so, but we decided not to call it Seth Righteous, to call it Oral Love because of the combination of the double entendre there with Oral Roberts out South and, you know, and the act of sex. And so we did that at the Cain's for a month and then they decided we were too bawdy for Cain's. That was when the people who had Cain's at the time were having people do the alligator and people were actually having sex in the audience. But we were too bawdy for them. So we moved to the Inferno, which is now the location of a car wash on South Peoria. The Inferno had a big sign outside that said topless lunch from 11 until seven. It was a long lunch. You would eat a lot of food. And we went in there and, like the first day we went in there, one of the dancers named Snowball grabbed me by the crotch and led me into the bar. So we did it there for a couple of months. Then we moved to Captain's Cabin, which was at 41st and Memorial. It's where Richard De La Fonte, a hypnotist, was working most nights and he had the prime weekend nights. Then we closed the show because we were going on the first of our summer tours. 14 �We talked about it during that summer tour and we came back and performed on the roof of the Mayo parking garage for a month- the coldest September on record, I think, and then the hottest day in October- we moved to the ballroom inside upstairs and we had this huge box that was two 4x8 sheets of plywood with about that much wood in between the shelves and all of our props and some of our costumes, and it wouldn't fit in the elevator shaft. So we had to take it to the freight elevator and we had to ride up on top of the freight elevator. We had to take it down to the basement, move the thing in on top of the freight elevator, take the freight elevator up to the floor below the ballroom and open the doors and move the thing out. It was a nightmare. Dennis Neill: So, Bob, this is all in the early 80s, right? Bob Odle: This is 75. Dennis Neill: Oh, okay, so now, which show are you talking about right now? Bob Odle: Joyce Martel. Dennis Neill: I saw it when I moved to Tulsa and I moved here in 77. Bob Odle: That was, oh well, we did the best of Joyce Martel in 76. And then in 77 we were at the Crest Club at the Mayo. We did some shows in the crystal ballroom, some shows we did downstairs in theToby Jenkins : Do you remember where you saw it? Dennis Neill: I thought I saw it at the Brook, but I could be wrong about that, correct? Bob Odle: Yeah, we didn't open that. 61579, that was the code on the security, the security system. Dennis Neill: I remember you and the flaming Bible, right? Bob Odle: Yeah, well, I used that for a long time. Dennis Neill: Okay, maybe it was another show. Bob Odle: We did the best of Joyce Martel, and then we closed that. And then in 77, well, we did some shows in the Pompeian Room, which is an artificial room they put because it was a two-story lobby, but they put a floor in and had this large meeting room called the Pompeian Room and it had Roman murals all around. It was horrible. Dennis Neill: So any pushback from Oral Roberts and the university with regard to the action singers? Bob Odle: Well, not then so much. We moved to the Brook, we continued, we did the Crest Club- and I don't remember what that show was called- right offhand. Then we got this deal with the Brook and we moved in there and we converted it from a movie house to a legitimate 15 �theater and we opened in June of 79 with huge, gigantic those spotlights on Peoria and drew a lot of attention. We had the marquee out front and some friends who had seen the show were friends with a man who made all of Oral Roberts' trinkets that he gave away for a donation and he had a pretty large house out south and it was his 50th birthday and they had happy 50th birthday up on the roof in big letters, eight feet tall. I mean they were huge letters- and so they decided he had all this money and he had everything he wanted, so they would give him something he wouldn't normally get, and so they gave him Brother Oral Love as his birthday, as entertainment for his birthday party, and there was a big crowd there. Some of the provosts of ORU was there and there were some other ORU people there and there were some of the people in the audience who just loved what I was doing. There were some who stood stony faced. Then one year, I don't remember what we renamed the show, we did a new show every year, which was a nightmare to write. But we did a show and I thought, okay, I'm going to write this sermon this year. What would I do if I were totally corrupt? And, you know, so, you know, like Jesus spent time in the desert. Well, I owned a house in Palm Springs. And because that's in the desert. And I had a Mercedes-Benz because there's a Janis Joplin song, Oh Lord, won't you give me a Mercedes-Benz. So I always ended with that. And the thing is that summer, Shoals, Jerry Shoals, I think his name is, published his book about Oral Roberts, the time he had worked for Oral Roberts. And it turned out he did have a Mercedes. He did drive a Mercedes. And he did own a house in Palm Springs. I mean, the stuff, if I were totally corrupt, this is what I would write. This is what I would do. Well, it turned out that was real life. And so Shoals came to see the show at least once. And he was tailed. They had people watching his every movement. Whether Oral actually knew about it or not, I don't know. But some of the people at the university did know what I was doing. But I got paid, so who cares. Toby Jenkins: So during this time, all these years, I assume you were teaching also but still doing theater. Bob Odle: No, at that time I was just doing theater. I had no time. Toby Jenkins: Was the theater community, live theater in Tulsa, did people attend the performances? Did it have lots of support? Bob Odle: We seated 750. That was what the fire marshal would allow in the building. We had lines that went from the box office around the corner and back to the alley, which is where our stage door was. I mean, we could stand and talk before the show to people who were going to see the show, maybe if they got in. Because we only seated 750. Dennis Neill: Those were the good old days. Those were great shows. Bob Odle: They were. 16 �Toby Jenkins: So looking back during those days and presently, is there still a lot of support in Tulsa for live theater? Bob Odle: I think so. I think Theater Tulsa is having, some part of it is the rent at the PAC. And Theater Tulsa has opened their place where I'm going tomorrow night and Saturday night, 55th and Peoria. It's a converted Dollar General store. And there are a lot of little splinter groups that do stuff. American Theater Company, I don't know. I mean, we always did five shows and we did a summer show. And at times we had like two or three shows running simultaneously. When we had Joyce running at the Mayo and Christmas Carol running at the PAC or whatnot. And some other times we did multiple shows at the same time. Because we had 25 people on our staff, full-time, paid. And others working part-time. Toby Jenkins: Who were cast members or writers, producers? Bob Odle: Musicians, concessions, bar workers, so on. Sometimes people in plays. But we had a staff of technicians and actors of like 25. Toby Jenkins: So here at the Equality Center, when we did our renovation about eight years ago, we felt like in our community we were having lots of theater groups that were showing an interest. And especially in our gay community, the queer community, about their interest in theater. One of the passions of some of our folks was that we convert a space into a theater space that could be used for the community, especially to make it accessible for people who wanted to do productions that might not have, you know, they might be cutting edge and be kind of outside of the standard stories to make sure that certainly queer theater had access to those theaters. And of course, it's named after Lynn Riggs, who wrote the story that became the Broadway musical, Oklahoma. Your thoughts about the Lynn Riggs Theater here at the Equality Center and the space and things like that. Bob Odle: Well, I love it. I think it's great. In fact, I was urging American Theater Company, we eventually moved, the Harwells bought the building at 308 South Lansing. And I always said this is a better place because there are posts there and I just like the Lynn Riggs better. I've seen some plays here. I've been to a lot of the Thursday night things and I like this venue. I think it's real neat. American Theater Company went from five shows down to last year, they did four shows. This year, they originally promoted three shows, but they eventually cut that back to one, Christmas Carol. And they do stand up comedy one night. They do, I think they have some drag shows out there. Occasionally, I mean, you know, it's not like the five show season that we used to market and then sometimes a tour or something special during the summer, it's not like that. I think that Christmas Carol hasn't drawn the past couple of years what it used to draw because the people who are managing the theater now determined that Christmas Carol is a tradition. So it doesn't need to be marketed. Well, they still market the Nutcracker. They still market other traditions. It needs to be marketed, people need to know. It needs to not be a secret production. I'm getting off on to my axe to grind. 17 �Toby Jenkins: Where all have you taught school? Dennis Neill: Well, TCC West and TCC North. English, comp. Toby Jenkins: No theater production or? Bob Odle: Well, I did have an acting class one semester and then that got to be a fiasco. It had to do with the management. I don't want to say anything more about that. But I taught at Central High School when it was downtown and I taught competitive speech and I directed plays and then I, well, I taught at Schulter for one year. They needed to bring up their test scores and they hired like the whole new administration and a third of the faculty was new and we brought up the test scores. So they weren't going to close. I hated leaving there because everybody was so supportive but I had this job offer at Mounds. And so it was like half the distance because I'd passed 201st Street halfway to Schulter. And so I took the job at Mounds and I drove down to Schulter to turn in my letters of resignation and to talk to them about, you know, I really liked this. Sorry to be leaving. And so I taught at Mounds for about 30 years and directed some plays, directed competitive speech. We won the state championship three years in a row. I had numerous individual state champions, one of whom never debated, but she is an attorney in Tulsa now and has fabulous commercials on Saturday Night Live and on the evening news. But she never, she persuaded me that she shouldn't take debate to, although she was undefeated. Bob Odle: Now, I'd be better if I took this, Mr. Odle. And so, okay. I mean, she persuaded me. Toby Jenkins: Now, did you ever teach at TU's theater department? Bob Odle: No, I didn't. Toby Jenkins: Were you involved with the? Bob Odle: After I graduated, I did do a play at TU that they then took to some contest at what used to be that horrible theater facility downtown in Oklahoma City [Mummers Theatre]. It's that thing that had boxes going every which way that they finally have torn down. And this should never have been built in the first place. Toby Jenkins: So just for purposes of our interview, the curtains in the Lynn Riggs were donated by TU Theater Department and the risers are from the TU Theater Department right before they closed down. Bob Odle: I know, and they still send me letters asking for money having closed the department that I graduated from years ago. And I think they gave the costumes to the PAC and they gave various other things away. Dennis Neill: We had to replace the curtains because they were out of code. 18 �Dennis Neill: Yeah, I think they had like a 10 or 15 year life. And so we replaced them in about 2020, 2021, something like that. Toby Jenkins: Let's go to our, I was curious to understand the trajectory in Tulsa, the incredible community support for live theater and how things have changed. You've lived through an interesting period. We talked about your, you know, being in college when Kennedy was assassinated. And here we are in 2026. During the, just real quickly, during the pandemic, were you involved in live theater and how the pandemic impacted our theater companies? Bob Odle: No, theater just totally shut down all over the world, I think. Now I, for a year there, I didn't go, except to go to research, I put on my mask and I still have masks in the car. But theater just shut down. And there was money, there was money for businesses that had to shut down and the theater applied for some grants and got some grants. The theater, the theater actually made more money the year we were shut down. They did no shows than some of the years when we'd done shows. Toby Jenkins: Because you didn't have any expenses. Toby Jenkins: Right. So here, I know that you, your family are here. Have you stayed involved in their lives? I mean, have they? Bob Odle: Well, they're all, my stepfather died in 2009 and my mother died just about three months ago. Toby Jenkins: Okay, our condolences. And how old was she? Bob Odle: She was 99 years and eight months and something. Toby Jenkins: Amazing. Bob Odle: She was, she would be, March 15th, she would be 100. And she was, she was doing all of her own, handling all of her business and doing all of her stuff until the very end when she just suddenly, precipitously went downhill. Toby Jenkins: Did she live by herself? Bob Odle: Yes, after my stepfather died, she did. She depended on her neighbor a lot and on me. It wasn't till I had to deal with our, the attorney that deals with our trust, and I had to write down, because I keep my calendars for years, and I had to write down all the times I'd taken her to the doctor and the dentist and the podiatrist and dermatologist and whatnot and to Reasor’s. And I didn't realize the amount of time and the amount of miles I was driving to take care of her. Toby Jenkins: Hmm. Well, I'm glad that she had you, and I'm glad that you had her. Bob Odle: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And our condolences. What do you keep, what keeps you busy now? 19 �Bob Odle: Dealing with her estate. And a good friend of mine, the one who persuaded me to go back and get my teaching certificate and get a master's degree, he died July 10th of 2024. And so I was named co-executor of his estate. And we had to go to court Tuesday. That's why I couldn't meet Tuesday to deal with, we had a hearing dealing with that estate. I'm hopeful that before the two-year time passes, that we will have this probate all aside, but we had a business, we had three houses, multiple vehicles, and other property to deal with, and it's just been, it's been a nightmare. That has kept me really busy, and dealing with my mother, and now dealing with her estate, and trying to keep my own life going. Toby Jenkins: Now, are you involved in, I know that you're involved here in the organization, you come to some of the programs for older adults. Bob Odle: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And are you involved in any other advocacy work, or political work, or? Bob Odle: Well, Tuesday, Tuesday I had to drop off the king cake, because it was Mardi Gras at the senior citizen breakfast. Then I dashed to the Tulsa Metropolitan Area Retired Educators Association, because I'm a retired teacher, and I took some sausage rolls to that, and stayed for that meeting. We always have interesting speakers. And so I'm involved in that. Last Friday was the Democrats' monthly luncheon at Interurban, and we have fascinating, well, Cindy Munson, who's the candidate for governor, spoke. And we always have fascinating speakers there. And so I go to that, and then I think there was one night this past week, maybe Tuesday night, Tuesday was a busy day, I went to Connie Dodson's kickoff for her campaign for school board, and I don't live in her district, but the idiot who represents that district now, I would like to see defeated. Toby Jenkins: So you're politically active. Bob Odle: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And what is your present feelings about our, I mean, you've lived a long time, you've seen a lot of things. Bob Odle: Go back to the Truman, I remember when President Truman was reelected. Toby Jenkins: What's your present feelings about our political climate, and how you see, okay, yeah, yeah. Do you have some concerns? Bob Odle: Yes. I'm concerned about whether I've been contributing to a couple of the candidates for Congress, not the one who made a million millions while paying his employees minimum wage, but I've contributed to others, one of whom is my school board member, and I'm contributing, but I'm concerned about whether we're even going to have an election or any more elections. I'm concerned about what the Supreme Court might decide, whether they would give him free license to totally trample or burn or tear up the Constitution. 20 �I mean, a guy who was fired from, I saw a guy who was fired from ABC News on MSNow the other day. I don't remember his name, but I remember the interview where he talked to the president about the things in the Oval Office, or here's a copy of the Declaration of Independence. What does that stand for? Well, it's a declaration, and it deals with love. All of the he hases, that whole list of he hases deals with love, and yes, it's a declaration. That's in its title, the Declaration of Independence. Toby Jenkins: I mean, duh. Bob Odle: How stupid do you have to be? He is pretty stupid. Toby Jenkins: So you see our political climate, and you see the way, not just constitutional norms being eroded, but specifically the erasure of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer people, the blacks, American Indians, the arts being stripped of funding, the Kennedy Center, as a person who's fought and taught and been instrumental in keeping fine arts alive in our culture. What are your thoughts on that? Bob Odle: Well, it's not just gay rights. It's black rights. I mean, he complains that the National Museum of the Black Americans, or whatever that is, this Smithsonian institution, deals too much with slavery. And he has said there should be less emphasis on Martin Luther King Day, or Juneteenth. We should focus more on his birthday. He has insisted that that November 12th be called Columbus Day and not Indigenous Americans Day, which in the city of Tulsa and maybe Oklahoma, a lot of states have declared it to be Indigenous Americans Day. I mean, he and our governor, our governor waves his Cherokee citizenship card around, hate American Indians. He hates black people. I mean, is it any surprise that some of the generals that have been fired have been black? Toby Jenkins: And female. Bob Odle: And the two journalists, well, the commandant of the Coast Guard was female. And the two journalists who were arrested in church were both black. Two of them were black. And he, I mean, his racism goes back generations. He and his father were fined, what, two million dollars by the federal government for not renting to black people in their apartment buildings back in the 60s or 70s. I think that goes from his grandfather coming over here from Germany under suspicious circumstances whereby Germany, when he went back after World War I, Germany refused to have him and send him back here because he had avoided the draft. He'd avoided the draft by coming over here. He didn't tell them he had homosexual tendencies or anything like that. Apparently he didn't. But I don't know. The racism, and his grandfather grew up in Germany at a time when Wagner was heavily racist, when Adolf Hitler was being born and was growing up, when there was a lot of racism in Germany at that time. And so he brought that over here and instilled that in his son and his grandson. 21 �Toby Jenkins: So, as we come to the close of our interview, is there anything else you want us to talk about that we haven't talked about? Bob Odle: Not that I can think of, except I'm sad that there is only basically one gay bar in Tulsa. It doesn't give us much variety. That's why I like New Orleans. There's a lot of variety down there. A lot of cities have more variety than we have. Although they have gone to publishing a calendar and they have Latin Night, which starts at 10 o'clock on the last Friday. They have Leather Night. They have various nights. So they have opened it to various people. But I don't go there very often because it's boring. Hardly ever do I see anybody my age or anybody I know there, so I don't go. Dennis Neill: So, Bob, why do you think that in the early 80s we had like 19 bars. We're down to a handful. What do you think has caused that demise, even though our city is larger? Bob Odle: Well, I think from what I observe in Tulsa and in other cities, I think part of it is the AIDS crisis. I think there was a diminution of the audience after that. I think the pandemic that hit in 2020 is part of it. And I think also we're at an age when I think this is wonderful in a way, but in a way I think it's depressing. Young gay people can go to any bar, hold hands, kiss, hug, whatever, and nobody really cares. I see this in New Orleans a lot. I saw Lafitte's Blacksmith Shop, which is where Lafitte's in Exile first started, except they've dropped the exile now. Until the owner of the building found out they were gay and they already moved them out and then they moved into a bigger place down the street. But I've seen people holding hands. I've seen, obviously, gay couples in there and in other bars here in Tulsa and in other places. And I think it's the acceptance of gay couples everywhere, in addition to those other things, but I think it's just an evolution. And I think it's a wonderful thing. Dennis Neill: You touched on AIDS. Can you talk a little bit more about your personal experience in the theatre, in the theatrical community, the impact both locally and anything you know. I am thinking about John Thomeyer who was so active and passed from AIDS. What has been your personal experience with AIDS? Bob Odle: Well, an actor who toured with Gaslight, who we then hired as part of our full-time staff, eventually quit and moved to New York. And there he began to exhibit all these different, you know, symptoms and died a number of years ago. A good friend who was in some of our first shows, our first season, moved to New York. He got cancer, some sort of colorectal thing, and he retired and he moved back to Tulsa. He eventually died, but essentially it was AIDS, you know, HIV. And then another friend who died in New York, he was from Tulsa, graduated from Will Rogers, was a student there when I did my student teaching at Will Rogers. And he did some shows with us early on, but then he moved to New York and he eventually died, I believe, of AIDS. And so I've known people who've died. I haven't known of anyone, oh, there's somebody, I can't think who it was, but there's somebody I do know who died….I didn't know him very well, but he died of AIDS. And I'm aware of numerous people who've died of AIDS, HIV. 22 �Dennis Neill: And were you ever involved in the 80s and 90s with some of the support groups around here or AIDS response within the Tulsa community? Bob Odle: I went to one meeting at Nancy McDonald's house of PFLAG, but I just didn't have time to get involved with that. And I was involved with you and three or four other people in reorganizing TOHR. That was in the 80s. But I really didn't have time because I was still doing theater at the time, and I was out of town doing tours and things, and I really didn't have time to get involved. And that's the thing about doing theater now, because I'm so involved in some of these social and political things. I hate to give up, because I gave those things up when I was doing theater, because almost every night I had to work. Now I hate to, I can't give up the political and social things I'm involved in. It's that time of my life for me. Toby Jenkins: So as we kind of come to the close, and just give you a minute to think about this, is there anything you would want to say to anybody who comes after us, or younger people today who will see this interview? Is there anything you would like to say, like, this is my message to you for the future? Bob Odle: Things will get better. I saw a person who has a shop on Greenwood talking about, he's an older person, talking about younger black people, thinking, why are you so bitter about stuff? Well, they had, young black people are enjoying the fruits of their labor. Young gay people are enjoying the fruits of our labor. But our labor shouldn't stop. It can't stop. Because we have seen from the past year that they can go back, these things can go backwards. Toby Jenkins: So don't stop. Bob Odle: No, we have to keep fighting for our rights. It was Hubert Humphrey who said, freedom has to be won every day. Toby Jenkins: Very good. Okay, if you'll give us your name one more time, and today's date. Bob Odle: Bob Odle, February 19th, 2026. Toby Jenkins: Thank you so much for your time with us today. Bob Odle: Well, thank you. Toby Jenkins: Thank you, Bob. Addendum: 23 �Robert "Bob" Odle dressed for the role of "Rev. Dr. Oral Love" for a production of "Joyce Martel," produced by the American Theatre Company of Tulsa, OK. The company performed this production at various venues from 1975 to 1985, some of which include the following: Cain's Ballroom, The Inferno, The Captain's Cabin, Mayo Hotel, and the Brook Theatre. The image shows Odle dressed in a church minister's robe while clutching a one dollar bill. Phot courtesy of the Museum of Tulsa History. 24 �Depicting five theater actors dressed as "Martels" in the finale of the production "Joyce Martel: They Say It's Your Birthday," produced in 1985 by the American Theatre Company at the Brook Theatre in Tulsa, OK. The actors and actress are as follows (left to right): Robert "Bob" Odle, Karl Krause, Melanie Fry (in the role of Joyce Martel), Greg Roach, and Tony Gates (kneeling). Photo courtesy of the Museum of Tulsa History. 25 � https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/92b7672f465b31469e90f256836e0487.mp4 4594a2c03a0488471c94cd800d12db1f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert (Bob) Odle Oral History Interview - Feb. 19, 2026 Video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Robert Odle Interview Subject The topic of the resource Robert (Bob) Odle Oral History Project Interview from February 19, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robert Odle, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 19, 2026 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Toby Jenkins on February 19, 2026. Bob was born on May 15, 1945, in Kansas City, Missouri. His mom and stepdad moved to Tulsa when Bob was in the sixth grade. He graduated from Nathan Hale High School in 1963 and finished his theatre degree from the University of Tulsa in 1967. He was required to go to Oklahoma City for a possible induction into the military as this was the height of the Vietnam War. After two interviews, it was clear that Bob was gay and not subject to military service due to the ban at that time on homosexuals in the military. He began a teaching career in competitive speech and drama at Central High School in Tulsa. He discussed his early involvement in theatre with Gaslight Theatre and the American Theatre Company with its early satirical takes on Tulsa, Oral Roberts University and co-wrote ATC’s production of “A Christmas Carol,” which continues to be performed each December for some 50 years. Bob created the Brother Oral Love role that became a fixture of ATC’s shows along with the Oral Action Singers. Bob has stayed politically active, often writes reviews of plays and musicals and serves in other volunteer roles in the Tulsa community. 2026 A Christmas Carol American Theatre Company American Theatre Company (ATC) American Theatre Productions ATC ATC productions Bob Odle Brother Oral Love Central High School Gaslight Theatre interview military inclusion Nathan Hale High School OKEQ Oral History Project Oral Action Singers oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Oral Roberts University Robert (Bob) Odle Robert Odle Toby Jenkins transcript TU Tulsa Central High School University of Tulsa video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/9c370c2ade14307e6a1b7cac51fd997a.mp4 8c86d9871f18be29287a1c8d06288d8e https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/7c5e5db49ba8b85363ee55444f01e96e.pdf db35a189d829027f639da2f67c286749 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Sue Welch and Marcy Smith Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: Jan 16, 2026 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video, February 28, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Sue Welch and Marcy Smith Summary In this engaging conversation, Marcy Smith and Sue Welch share their personal journeys, highlighting their experiences growing up in Oklahoma and navigating their identities as members of the LGBTQ+ community. Marcy recounts her childhood in Tulsa, her education at Oklahoma Christian College, and her early awareness of her sexual orientation. She reflects on the challenges faced by LGBTQ+ individuals in a conservative environment, including the need for stealth and the importance of finding community. Sue, on the other hand, shares her upbringing in Ponca City, her academic journey at OSU, and the pivotal moment when she realized her feelings for her best friend. Both women discuss their relationships, the evolution of their identities, and the significance of community support in their lives. As they delve deeper into their experiences, Marcy and Sue recount their involvement with Oklahomans for Human Rights and the development of the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. They reflect on the challenges of coming out to their families, the societal pressures they faced, and the importance of creating a safe space for LGBTQ+ individuals in Tulsa. Their stories are filled with humor, resilience, and a sense of belonging, showcasing the power of love and community in overcoming adversity. In this episode, Marcy Smith and Sue Welch share their inspiring journey of establishing a community center for the 2 �LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa, Oklahoma. They recount the grassroots efforts that began in the late 1980s, during the AIDS crisis, when they faced skepticism and pushback from within their own community. Despite the challenges, they successfully organized fundraising events, such as house parties and the Wild Hearts Ball, to raise awareness and funds. Their determination led to significant milestones, including securing a $10,000 grant from a New York foundation and eventually purchasing a permanent space for their community center, which became a hub for support, celebration, and activism. The conversation highlights the importance of physical spaces for community gathering, especially in a time when virtual connections are prevalent. Marcy and Sue emphasize the need for ongoing support and engagement within the community, particularly in light of recent political challenges. They reflect on the center's role in pivotal moments for LGBTQ+ rights, including the legalization of same-sex marriage and the repeal of discriminatory laws. Their message is clear: maintaining a physical home for the community is essential for fostering connection, support, and resilience against adversity. Keywords LGBTQ+, Tulsa, Oklahomans for Human Rights, coming out, community support, Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, personal stories, Marcy Smith, Sue Welch, LGBTQ+ history, LGBTQ+ community, Tulsa, fundraising, community center, activism, AIDS crisis, grassroots efforts, Wild Hearts Ball, same-sex marriage, community support Takeaways        "I knew pretty early probably 10 or 11 years of age." "You just find your people and can do things." "It was kind of a cover, right?" "I felt like I was living in the 1950s." "It was a pivotal thing to see that." "I think they were upset that they were having to deal with it." "My family has always been very progressive, very liberal." 3 � "We moved into a duplex that I had previously moved into."  "We developed a campaign for a permanent visible presence."  "It was fantastic because I think we had such a large group." It was a very grassroots campaign, one person at a time.  We had to prove ourselves first before getting large donations.  We wanted to bring disparate groups together behind the same cause.  The community bought into this; it was a beautiful thing.  We had to create a physical space for gathering and support. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 01:16 Marcy's Childhood and Education 12:10 Sue's Upbringing and Early Relationships 24:00 Finding Community in Tulsa 38:55 Coming Out to Family and Friends 46:58 Involvement with Oklahomans for Human Rights 48:21 Grassroots Beginnings: Building Support 52:28 Creating Community Events for Fundraising 01:00:10 Challenges and Triumphs in Fundraising 01:08:50 Finding a Permanent Home for the Center 01:18:31 The Grand Opening and Community Impact 01:25:42 Reflections on Community and Future Challenges ______________________________________________________________________ 4 �Sue Welch and Marcy Smith Oral History Interview Jan 16, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Today's date is Friday, January the 16th, 2026, at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in downtown Tulsa, Oklahoma. And we have Marcy Smith and Sue Welch. For our archival purposes, would you please give us your name, your age as today's date. Marcy Smith: Me, Marcy Smith, 62, gonna be 63 this year. Sue Welch: Sue Welch, 64. Toby Jenkins: Joining me in the interview today is the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, Dennis R. Neill, and Amanda Thompson, who is the archivist at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, which houses the Nancy and Joe MacDonald Rainbow Library [where this interview is being conducted]. Marcy, tell us a little bit about your childhood and your family. When were you born? Marcy Smith: October 10th, 1963, right here in Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: What hospital? Marcy Smith: Well, I thought I was born in St. John, but recently, I found out I was born in Hillcrest. Toby Jenkins: And so your family was from Tulsa? Marcy Smith: Yes, my mom's family eventually was from Tulsa, but they had spent some time in Texas for quite some time. And then my dad was a sales rep for Skelly Oil Company and moved around a lot. I was born in Tulsa, and then 11 months later, my sister Karen was born in Joplin. And then 18 months after that, my sister Cindy was born in Fort Smith, Arkansas. Then we hung out in Arkansas for a little bit and then came back to Tulsa, so yeah. Toby Jenkins: Did you go to school? Marcy Smith: Went to- yes, went to elementary school, where the center now is for- at 11th and Utica, went to Jefferson Elementary School, which does not exist anymore, because of the center now, so. Toby Jenkins: The center for those with physical challenged? Marcy Smith: Yes, yes, not Oklahomans for Equality Center. 5 �Marcy Smith: So went to school there, and then we moved way out south in 1971 to Jenks, which was- Woodland Hills Mall didn't even exist. That 71st and Memorial, it was a gravel road still. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and it was called Jenks USA. Marcy Smith: That's right, it was Jenks USA, and it was way the heck out there. So we moved out to Jenks and then finished school at Jenks High School, and thenToby Jenkins: And what year did you graduate? Marcy Smith: Graduated 1982. Toby Jenkins: 1982. Marcy Smith: Then went toToby Jenkins: How many were in your graduating class at Jenks? Marcy Smith: I think there were 482 people, something like that, yeah. And then went to Oklahoma Christian College for a couple of years. Toby Jenkins: Which is locatedMarcy Smith: In Edmond, Oklahoma. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Marcy Smith: Still is. Toby Jenkins: And it's a disciple’s college? Marcy Smith: It's Church of Christ. Toby Jenkins: Church of Christ, okay. And that's where you went for your undergraduate degree? Marcy Smith: Couple years there, and the reason I went was that my best friend from high school was Church of Christ, and I didn't have a- it's like, "Okay, I'll go there, that's fine." And ran into probably one of the largest groups of gays and lesbians on the planet. It's kind of a joke. Anyway, although it was not a veryToby Jenkins: At the Christian University? Marcy Smith: At the Christian College. Toby Jenkins: Right. 6 �Marcy Smith: Lots of gays and lesbians, lots of people trying to escape their parents in the small town. So it was kind of a- I guess it was what you would call a beard, right? It was a cover. So they're like, "Oh yeah, we're gonna go to a Christian's college and fix ourselves." But that was not happening there. So anyway. Although when they caught someone, it was pretty brutal how they dealt with getting rid of students at the college when they found out they were gay or lesbian, so. Toby Jenkins: So you went thereMarcy Smith: I was there for a couple years, and my best friend was in love with a guy back in Tulsa. She just couldn't finish- she had to come back to Tulsa. So there really wasn't anything for me to stay there for, so I came back to Tulsa and finished my degree at the University of Tulsa.Graduated in 1986 with an MIS degree, which was one of the very first computer science and business majors at the University of Tulsa. We were the second class, and I think there were only about seven of us. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been what year? Marcy Smith: That was 1986. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and how big was the computer in those days? Marcy Smith: Well, soToby Jenkins: It wasn't on- it couldn't be on your desk yet, could it? I think- yeah. Marcy Smith: Well, no, no, yeah. No, but it was heading that way. It was heading that way. So, no, they were pretty big, pretty big computers. But I pushed it as long as I possibly could, so that I didn't have to use punch cards to do my programming. And thankfully, I got out of that, so. But computers as we would know them are desktops. I think that was around 1991-1992, or something like that, when that became kinda mainstream. Toby Jenkins: And did you go work for a company, or were youMarcy Smith: Fresh out of college, I ended up- I had two job offers. One was to be a tape hanger for American Airlines in their computer room. The other was to be a programmer analyst for Tulsa County. My dad thought I made a really horrible mistake by not working for American Airlines on the third shift hanging tapes, which was like an aerobic exercise job at the time. You can imagine their processing center and imagine their processing center today. But yeah, he thought I was silly for- 'cause I would've gotten fine benefits and stuff like that, so. But I never looked back on that. It's not what I wanted to do, so. 7 �Toby Jenkins: And how long were you with Tulsa County? Marcy Smith: About 18 years. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Toby Jenkins: And so are you gonna be able to draw your Tulsa County pension? Marcy Smith: As a matter of fact, in November of 2025, I got my first retirement check. Marcy Smith: So yeah, I'm happy about that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. They didn't pay us much, but we've got pension. Marcy Smith: No. But yeah, the benefits are really good. Yeah, but when I left Tulsa County in 2004, that rule of '80, I thought, there's just no way I'm gonna reach that, right? So that was 22 years ago. But as it got closer and closer, I was really happy about it, so we'll have some fun on that. Toby Jenkins: So you encountered other lesbian and gay students. Is that when you begin to realizeMarcy Smith: No, no. I knew pretty early, probably 10 or 11 years of age. Marcy Smith: And then, just because of the climate, dated- in quotes, dated guys in high school and got asked in high school because there was some stuff going on with the girls' basketball team, which I was on the basketball team. There were several lesbians on the basketball team. And so there got to be a kind of an uproar at some point. People were being questioned. And so my parents sat me down and I just lied straight to their face, 'cause I didn't wanna be in the middle of it. So thankfully, got out of that without a whole lot of issues, so. But it was a- Jenks back then, it was a pretty rural school. A lot of bubba's running around, a lot of individuals threatening people and some violence and vandalism of cars and stuff like that going on, so. So I didn't wanna call attention to it. Toby Jenkins: At college, even at your Christian college, I mean, did you hang out with those individuals and y'all just kind of were stealth atMarcy Smith: Well, yeah, you know how we are. We find our people, right? And so you hang out with your people. And so yeah, it was just a matter of just figuring out what you can and cannot do. But I will say- yeah, Oklahoma Christian College was smaller than my high school.When we went there, and I felt like I was living in the 1950s. When we got on campus, the girls dorms were locked at night, the guys were not. The guys could 8 �do whatever they wanted at night after hours on the weekend, stuff like that. I knew I wasn't gonna be long for that. It was just like, well, I'm just going here because my friend was here. And once that started happening, I just felt like I was caged in and sobut it was kind of odd environment. It kinda felt like you were in a bubble, this Christian bubble, and everything was wonderful and fine and all of that. Who knows what the administrators thought, but that wasn't what was going on behind the scenes with the students and stuff, so you just find your people and can do things. I ended up getting a job at a really nice restaurant there in Edmond called Joe Kelly's and it was a steakhouse, and people would have their high school events there and graduation and stuff like that. But I was the first- it was called a barback, so you're a bartender's assistant. Here I am going to a Christian college and I'm working at a bar, and when I would come home at night after doing my shift at the restaurant, I was literally covered in alcohol and smoke, 'cause you could smoke back then, right? At 02:00-03:00 in the morning, I had to wake up the resident assistants, this woman who took care of us at the dorm, had to wake her up at 02:00 AM in the morning, coming in just covered in alcohol. So anyway, that was kinda funny, people would do that. Toby Jenkins: Did you start socializing with this group of students who were in hiding, or did that happen when you got to TU? I mean, when did you create a clique of friends, whoMarcy Smith: When I left Oklahoma Christian College which was in Edmond, obviously, and came home to Tulsa, I really didn't stay in touch with most of them. They were from all over Oklahoma and all over the country, actually. So when I came back to Tulsa, I came back to Tulsa because I had a relationship with a woman at the time. We ended up moving in together and I finished out my degree at University of Tulsa at that point, and then just kinda started hanging out with everybody here in Tulsa, so really kinda through the softball chain of- I mean, just kinda how it was. Toby Jenkins: Lesbian day, or? Marcy Smith: Yeah, yeah, that's right, softball stuff. And then, the bars at the time and line dancing and all that kinda stuff. So you're going out to the bars andToby Jenkins: Do you remember what bars you went to? Marcy Smith: Oh. Well, I can't remember the name of the bar that was on Memorial there at 15th Street. Toby Jenkins: TNT's? 9 �Marcy Smith: No. Well, it wasn't- no, it was prior to TNT's and where people were playing- you know the name of the bar? Sue Welch: The Club. Marcy Smith: The Club, it's called The Club. So anyway, you had to knock and they open up the window and let you in, and all that kinda stuff. Toby Jenkins: And that was at 15th at Memorial? Marcy Smith: 15th, right, yeah, yeah, 15th Street, dead-ended, right into Memorial. And then, The Club was there and it was like a little house, actually. It wasn't very big. But they had an outdoor space, so volleyball and have fires and stuff like that. You can hang out outside The Club. Sue Welch: Jodie and Mary owned it. Marcy Smith: Yeah. So thenToby Jenkins: And it was a girls club? Marcy Smith: Yeah. And then you had the star, Silver Star, right? So that was 15th and Sheridan, and then TNT's. And then, theMarcy Smith: Off of Yale, what was it? 34th and Yale. There's also a club called the Crash Landing at the time [Crash Landing was at 5th and S. Lewis], that was a pretty coolToby Jenkins: So is Zippers closed by this time? Marcy Smith: No, Zippers- was it always called Zippers? I don't know if it was always called Zippers or not, but that was another place that we would go to, so. Toby Jenkins: So softball. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And these are clubs. Marcy Smith: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Did you know anything about Oklahomans for Human Rights or pride, or? Marcy Smith: I guess it was probably real early 90s when I got involved with OHR, TOHR. That was kinda the transition time, I think, when it was moving from those names and stuff over. Specifically, I believe it was when we were over on Peoria, I think. 10 �Toby Jenkins: Okay. Marcy Smith: So that's kinda the first access in trying to assist and volunteer and stuff like that, so. Toby Jenkins: Let's put Sue on the hot seat. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And see how similar her story is or how different it is. Before we do that, I wanna ask you, tell me about meeting Sue. Marcy Smith: It was a New Year's Eve party at a friend's house. Lots of people there, I don't know, probably 30 or 40 women, maybe more than that. And this will date us- so it was all about Trivial Pursuit. So we're playing Trivial Pursuit, it's pretty competitive. She walked in with her then-partner, and I was around a coffee table or something like that, knee-deep in the Trivial Pursuit. And I just looked up and she walked in with her thenpartner. And it was- I don't know how- maybe I said something to someone like, "Who's that?" They were like, "Sue Welch and Darlene." So anyway, that's how we met, but there was something at that just initial glance. And so anyway, I'll let her tell the rest, but it was just a party. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Beautiful. Sue, where were you born and where are you from? Sue Welch: I was born in Ponca City, Oklahoma on April 30th, 1961. Dennis was born there too, it's our hometown, both of us. Marcy Smith: It's in the water. Sue Welch: Yeah. A nice, sweet little, small town, a great town to be born and raised in. Not a great town to stay, but a great town to be born and raised in. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Were you born in the hospital there? Sue Welch: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And what was the name of that hospital? Sue Welch: Ponca City Hospital. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And tell us about your family. Sue Welch: My family, my mother's Cherokee and my dad is English. And they had a great love affair and were married till they passed and were wonderful parents. But my dad is a third-generation brick mason. Hiss grandfather, before statehood, had a brick yard in Ponca City. And he built the first brick home. So from my great-grandfather to my 11 �grandfather to my father and his brothers, it was a third-generation brick mason company, Welch Masonry Construction. Toby Jenkins: So they've been there for a while. Are there still- if you were to go to Ponca City today, are there still buildings that they built? Sue Welch: Oh, dozens and dozens, yes. Buildings and homes, yes. Yeah, you could have a Welch Masonry tour of Ponca City. Toby Jenkins: So did you go to school in Ponca City? Sue Welch: Yes, I went to Ponca City High School. And it was- we actually had a very large graduating class. It was 415 people for our graduating class. And I thought it wasToby Jenkins: So you all probably played Jenks in sports. Sue Welch: I wasn't really into sports. I don't know that. Could be. But I studied a lot. Sue Welch: Well, it may have been a little too far away. Toby Jenkins: Oh, okay. Sue Welch: Maybe at state and regionals, but not on a conference level. Sue Welch: I wouldn't have known. I went to the football games just for fun. So don't ask me any of those stats. Marcy Smith: Too popular. Sue Welch: I was the prom queen. So there's that. Toby Jenkins: Says so much. Sue Welch: But not the football queen, so. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So what year did you graduate? Sue Welch: I graduated in 1979. Toby Jenkins: And did you go to school after that? Sue Welch: Yes, after that, I went to OSU. And in 1983, got my degree in natural sciences, my bachelor's degree in natural sciences. Loved OSU. That was great. That was where my best friend and I started having deeper feelings about each other, so…in high school and throughout a large- oh, the first half of college, my boyfriend from high school, the wrestling star, we became engaged. So in high school- in college, we were going to be married right after college. 12 �My best friend and I started becoming very, very close, and I just kept thinking, "Oh my God, I can't graduate and leave my friend. This would be horrible." And we just kept getting deeper and deeper feelings, and I thought, "What is going on here?" Sue Welch: And so I talked to my mom about it, and I said, "I think I'm going crazy or something." She said, well, honey, I can't believe that any love is wrong. And I never looked back. So I left my fiancé. Toby Jenkins: And that would've been- you would've been ... Marcy Smith: She called off the wedding. Yeah. Sue Welch: Yeah. Sue Welch: The dress was all done. The invitations were ... - yeah. It was on the way. Marcy Smith: The colors were picked, all the stuff. Toby Jenkins: The runaway bride. Marcy Smith: Yes. Sue Welch: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. How old would you've been? Sue Welch: So that would have been, let's see, right when I graduated, right at 1983. So 21, 22. Toby Jenkins: So you had this discussion with your mother. I'm just guessing there probably weren't a bunch of lesbians in Ponca City to help mentor you. Sue Welch: There may have been, but I did not know them. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Sue Welch: I didn't know anyone in the community. I didn'tToby Jenkins: It's 'cause you weren't going to softball camp. Sue Welch: That's right. My gaydar was not tuned at the time, so yeah. Toby Jenkins: You went to OSU. What was that experience like for you now that you had ended that relationship and probably were figuring out? Sue Welch: We moved into a house together, and we had a few friends, both of us. We were each other's first experience, and so neither of us knew of any community per se, 13 �but we did find a few friends, half a dozen, 10 friends that we hung out with a little bit. Then we broke up, and someone introduced me to a woman in Tulsa. And when I left OSU and came to Tulsa to establish my practice here, there was a huge community. So many people. I was just like, "Wow, this is amazing." So much so that my partner was a teacher, and my sister, when she would visit, she said, "Well, are all teachers lesbians?" So such a great, huge community. So that was fantastic to experience. Marcy Smith: Well, and you have gay guy friends to this day from OSU. Sue Welch: Well, not from a- well, they were gone at the same time. Yeah, but we didn't hang out a lot. We found each other kind of after. In Tulsa. And I was like, "I knew you in OSU." So we kind of, all of us were in hiding there once I did come out of OSU. Toby Jenkins: So you didn't really connect to the LGBTQ community at OSU. It was when you came to Tulsa. Sue Welch: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And when you say there was a huge community, what did that look like? Sue Welch: Oh my gosh. Toby Jenkins: Were there just house parties, or people went to eat together, or? Sue Welch: House parties, going to the bars, dancing, potlucks, softball. My partner was a well-respected softball umpire, so lots of softball. Of course she was. And so yeah, just a lot of socializing. A lot of socializing. Toby Jenkins: Did either of you ladies ever interact with the flag football team, the girls' flag football team? Sue Welch: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Well, that's who helped me come out. I always say I was raised by wolves, because the girls' flag football team. So it was a huge community, and you were in a relationship. Sue Welch: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And what was your career at this time? Sue Welch: I was licensed by the medical board as an electrologist. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Sue Welch: And I did that for 22 years in Broken Arrow and in Tulsa. 14 �Toby Jenkins: And you were in a relationship. Do you remember kinda what the environment was like for you in Tulsa, what it was like to go to gay clubs and, as you said, find so many people? Sue Welch: It was fantastic. Because I think we had so many- such a large group, I didn't recognize feeling a lot of threat. I knew some of our male counterparts were threatened. But we just didn't go to places that allowed us to be threatened. We didn't go out unless we were in big numbers. We only went to certain places. The Club was very private, very protected. So that's kind of what that was like. Toby Jenkins: And what was that like? You hit the parking lot, and the minute you walk through the doorSue Welch: Yeah, it's freedom. Yeah, freedom. Toby Jenkins: You could hold hands. Like, cheers, hey. Sue Welch: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: You could hold hands? Yeah. Sue Welch: Yeah, freedom, absolutely. Sue Welch: But not out at work, not out to any clients, not out to friends who were not LGBT. Toby Jenkins: So I'm gonna ask you both this question, but tell me about the first time you saw Marcy. Sue Welch: So it was a party, and my partner and I walked in, and there were people playing at a table. And Marcy has these beautiful brown piercing eyes, and so I noticed her naturally. And it was probably another year after, and it was a New Year's party, and it struck midnight. And I'm a pretty private person, private physically. I'm very demonstrative, but kissing on the lips was really a personal thing for me. And it struck midnight, and Marcy just planted a kiss right on my lips. And I was like, "Wow." Marcy Smith: She wasn't the only person that I kissed. Sue Welch: Well, no. Marcy Smith: I mean, it was New Year's Eve. Everybody ... . Sue Welch: Marcy wasn't as protective of her lips as I was. So but yes, I was like, "Oh, my God." That was sparky. So yeah. And then our partners, the four of us became close friends, and you know the story. So we could not- we were inseparable. And we all four 15 �worked on our partnerships. We knew there were some feelings. But we were inseparable and just in so much pain not being able to see each other that the partnership split. AndToby Jenkins: For you all to be together? Marcy Smith: Yep. Toby Jenkins: Okay. That would've been what year? Marcy Smith: '92. Toby Jenkins: '92? Marcy Smith: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Sue Welch: In the 1900s. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Sue Welch: In the 1900s, we got together. Toby Jenkins: So I asked both of you, and you said you found community here. You found that because you got on the Internet, right? And you looked up where the gay bars were. Marcy Smith: Oh right, because the Internet existed. No, the Internet didn't quite exist yet. Well, I guess 1992-ish is about the time it started taking off. Those were chat rooms. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember any public officials or movie stars or rockstars, who were out in open who you could look at and see, oh, this is how you- this is what it is? Sue Welch: Eventually, Lilly Tomlin came out. Eventually, through the horrible AIDS crisis, we saw stars, Rock Hudson die, whether they'd come out prior or not. But no, there were no authority figures, people that you could look up to, to have any kind of guidance that way. Toby Jenkins: Social media non-existent. Sue Welch No. The Gay Yellow Pages, literally a book that you would look in to find places. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Couldn't text people messages. 16 �Marcy Smith: Nope, nope. Sue Welch: No. Toby Jenkins: Couldn't send them pictures. Marcy Smith: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So we've talked about you meeting each other. Could you just real quickly emphasize to us and our viewers, what it was like when you had the discussion with your families to say, I'm a lesbian, I have a partner. Or can you kind of tell about those experiences, if you had those experiences with your parents. Marcy Smith: My family is kinda the 'don't ask, don't tell' family. Don't mess with my stuff. I'm not gonna mess with your stuff. We're not gonna have a lot of drama. So all this time, I was just kinda living my life, but wasn't really putting it in my parents' face, so to speak. Obviously, I wasn't bringing any guys home. And then Sue and I had been together for a little bit. But so what happened was, well, same-sex marriage didn't exist. So there was a company, a travel company called Olivia Travel Company. They were also a record company at the time that was promoting lesbian artists. And so it's an all-women's cruise, which is really neat. So Sue and I were gonna do that. And on these cruises, because you could not get legally married, they would haveSue Welch: Union ceremonies. Marcy Smith: Unions, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Commitment ceremony. March Smith: A commitment ceremony. So that's how my family found out, because we sent out announcements to my family that Sue and I were going to have a commitment ceremony in Mexico, and that's how my family found out. It was kind of ripply, quite frankly. And it was kinda like, I guess, how people can be like, how could you not know that Sue and I were a couple, but sometimes straight people don't really see things. So it was a little bit rough. We timed it pretty quickly before we went to the- so we could hurry up and get out of town and get on the cruise and let my family deal with it. So that's kinda how my family found out, which was literal announcement. Toby Jenkins: So you said it was rough. I mean, were they upset, or were they questioning you, or just mad that you hadn't told them before? 17 �Marcy Smith: Yeah, yeah. I think they- I don't know, 'cause I didn't really sit down and talk with them quite honestly. It was like, just y'all deal with it. Sue Welch: I think they were upset that they were having to deal with it. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Sue Welch: They were being forced to deal with it. Marcy Smith: Yes. Yeah, and this was something that they probably had pushed down for decades, obviously. It's like, "Oh my gosh, now they have to come to terms with it." I think my parents probably thought, in some form or fashion, that they had failed, and all those things that you hear. But ultimately, my mom embraced us and kinda became the mom down here at the center. So mom spent at least 10 years, I think, or more volunteering down at the center and baking brownies for people and things like that. So she committed to that once, I think, she came to terms with it. And so that was really neat. Sue Welch: She was great. Toby Jenkins: Sue, what about you, your family? I know you'd had the conversation with your mother. Sue Welch: Well, my family found out about our commitment ceremony in the same way, with the announcements. But all through Marcy had been my third relationship. And all through…they knew about my relationships, accepted my partners, and were very loving and accepting. Accepted them as family, they came to family reunions. So when we sent out the announcements, I got calls, "That sounds nice, honey. Well, good for you." Ohe worst one, or the most uncomfortable one, I guess, was from one of my sisters, and she just called and said, "Well, I just wanna call and tell you I got your announcement about your thing. And just wanna tell you I got it." That was about the most outside effect. But my family has just always been- I've been so fortunate, the way they've accepted me. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Do you think your family's had issues with religion and sexuality? Were those any kinda struggles or politics? I mean, they were super conservative politically. Did they seem to show concern about how this was gonna make them look in their business or around, don't tell your grandmother. I mean, was there any kind of those? Marcy Smith: I think, from my father's perspective, that he was concerned about his reputation and his business reputation and the country club stuff and all of that. I remember in particular, he wanted a trip to Paris and through his company and he's like, 18 �"I don't wanna go to Paris. And I said, "Well, I'd like to go to Paris. I'll go on that trip." And it was an oil company trip thing and- so before it got too far down the line, he made it very clear to me that I was not to take my partner with me to on this trip. And so it was like, "You can take your mom." And so I said, "Okay, I'm gonna go to the city of love and take my mom." I mean, I love my mom, but. So anyway, so that was made very, very clear, that I was supposed to basically behave, in front of his peers and cronies and stuff like that for that trip, so. Toby Jenkins: Were you able to bring girlfriends home to your parents’ houses, your mom or dad's house for gatherings? Marcy Smith: So I mean, like Sue said, it's not like I was this dating feen. We had twoone, I had one, but I had a high school relationship but that was not, quite frankly, ever gonna go anywhere, but anyway. So two basic relationships before I got with Sue. Sue and I have been together for 34 years now, so it wasn't like there were this a bunch of women that I was bringing home. Toby Jenkins: Okay, what about you, Sue? Did the family feel any- I mean, were you able to take… Sue Welch: Oh yeah, yeah, from the get-go. My first relationship, second relationship, Marcy, they were all included in holidays, gatherings, accepted by my family and my sister that has lived in Oklahoma for- not currently, but for most of her life. Yeah, they were just part of the family and my partner. Marcy Smith: And I would agree with that. I don't want it to sound like my family was wanted me to not bring. ..I mean, they were- whoever I brought home, part of the family. My mom was one of seven children, so everybody was welcome. Toby Jenkins: No political pushback, no religious pushback? Marcy Smith No, because we are the 'don't ask, don't tell' family. So we didn't really bring that stuff up at all. Toby Jenkins: What about you, Sue? Sue Welch: No, no, my family's always been very progressive, very liberal, although we were raised in a fairly strict Lutheran Church, my family's never been that linear. Their Christianity really is what would Jesus do and love everyone. Toby Jenkins: Fortunate. Do you both feel fortunate that you were born into the families you were born into? Marcy Smith: Yes 19 �Sue Welch: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: 'Cause we're about to change gears just a little bit here, because surely, as you were hanging out at what places identified as the community, you were encountering people who did not have those experiences, could not take partners home, hadn't spoke to their families. I know that was something you probably were saying. So you're together…You're building your life together. I mean, did you move into an apartment together? Was there a U-Haul involved? We've always heard- I meanSue Welch: We moved into a duplex that I had previously moved into and we- then Marcy, moved in. Then we purchased the duplex and then we purchased a home in Midtown. Marcy Smith: Well, no, we purchased a second duplex. So we had two duplexes. Sue Welch: And then we purchased a home in Midtown, which we were renovating while we still lived in the first duplex. And when we moved to Midtown, it's kind of when we started finding more out about the gay pride parades and the center on Peoria and going to the center on Peoria, and seeing a little gift shop. And just- but for me, all the kids, the young kids that were there, and thinking, "Gosh, had I known about that sooner, I may have come out sooner, I don't know." but it was just- it was a pivotal thing to see that. Toby Jenkins: And of course, were you- at this time Marcy, you were still working for Tulsa County. Did they know? Marcy Smith I did not come out to- I mean literally say this to my peers, but I didn't hide my relationship with Sue and whenever we had- if we were doing chili cook-offs or whatever we were doing forToby Jenkins: Holiday parties. Marcy Smith: - fundraisers or things like that, it was just assumed that Sue would be there. So- but no, I didn't literally say to my boss, "This is who Sue is." Toby Jenkins: So you don't feel like you've experienced discrimination, justMarcy Smith: I don't know if I did or not, I just head down, get my career going and all that kinda stuff. So I don't know. Toby Jenkins: Just out of curiosity, would you have had a desk and would on your desk, would there have been a picture of your partner, and would you've had somebody ask you, like a new employee might say, "Are you married, do you have husband, do you have kids?" I mean- 20 �Marcy Smith: I- to be honest, I cannot remember if I had a picture of SueSue Welch: You weren't out that much. Marcy Smith: No, no. No, I did not push that. No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Okay. Sue, you had your medical profession. And what about with your clients? I mean, were youSue Welch: No, not out all. Toby Jenkins: You guarded that very carefully. Sue Welch: I may have had two clients that I was out to, but that's it. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you've moved to Brookside, the Rainbow Ribbon, as it's called. And the center, as you call it, was just down the street. And what did that center look like? Sue Welch: It was small. It was small. It wasn't well appointed. I mean it was fantastic 'cause it served a great purpose, but just in comparison to where we're sitting now, it was small and not greatly appointed. It was hidden. Toby Jenkins: Wasn't accessible. Sue Welch: You had to go in a small door, climb some stairs. There wasn't signage, so that's kinda what I remember. The store was very, very small, maybe just one cabinet, some jewelry or something, as I recall. Toby Jenkins: And you would go to pride? Sue Welch: Yes, at that time, at least for a couple or few times, the pride parade went down Peoria, which was fantastic. So we started doing that and then we would go to pride every year beyond that. Toby Jenkins: Okay. When did- I mean, did you volunteer or did you just support it? Sue Welch: We mostly just supported at that time. And there were starting to be visible churches that were supportive, and there was one on Peoria also, and so we'd usually stand at that location. Toby Jenkins: That would've been All Souls ... ? Sue Welch: No, further south... . Toby Jenkins: Southwest Presbyterian, or? 21 �Sue Welch: Probably that Presbyterian one, yeah. Marcy Smith: It wasn't Southminster. It's not there anymore. It's right there where the green space is across from Charleston's. Sue Welch: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, the United Methodist Church. Marcy Smith: Yes, it was the United Methodist Church. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, I know. I forget the name of that, but. Okay, so you'd watch the parade. Sue Welch: And we'd join in at the end of the parade. At that time it was small enough, you could just walk with it. Toby Jenkins: Now did you ever attend the events like before the parade, where we had to walk down the sidewalks? Sue Welch: I don't know that we knew about those events. Toby Jenkins: Prior to that? Okay. And so the center was the headquarters of Tulsa Oklahoma for Human Rights, right? Correct? That y'all had already branded by that? Okay. Dennis Neill: Since '85. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And, so you were there. I know that somewhere along the line, you got into the cause, got drafted, recruited, or fell into it accidentally. The desire for us to have a more permanent home because we weren't at- the center was not at that location very long, was it? Sue Welch: No. Toby Jenkins: And then it moved. Marcy Smith: And that happened at least three times within a fairly five to six year period of time. Because somehow or another, we got a lease signed but eventually the landlords weren't really happy about the clientele. Not that it was rowdy or outrageous or anything like that. So then we moved to, or TOHR moved to the space at 21st and Memorial by TNTs, the bar there. Toby Jenkins: Above TNT's. 22 �Marcy Smith: Above TNT's. And not a very, in my opinion, positive space because the smoke was seeping through the cinder block. It got to the point, I couldn't spend much time there because of how- it just was not a positive space. And that's kinda where the rumblings of the capital campaign happened. But yeah, we got recruited at a party by Nancy McDonald. We didn't know why we got invited to this party. Sue Welch: It was actually more surreptitious than that. We started having more friends, and so we got invited to this party. She was there but she told someone after that party, "You need to call those girls and get them involved." So we got a call and were asked to get on this group to help develop and work on a capital campaign for a permanent equality center. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Sue Welch: Found out later, Nancy was the impetus for that. Toby Jenkins: And so, you got asked to serve on that? Toby Jenkins: And what were those early days like? Sue Welch: So we did have, before moving from Peoria, we did have a couple, the very first meetings there. And Marcy and I are really organized and conducting meetings, let's get something done. So I think we exhibit our leadership pretty quickly. And a lot of people don't want to be in charge. So I became the capital chair at the time. And we developed a campaign, the United Way always has a name of their campaign, so we thought we need a name for this. And so we developed the Pyramid Project. And this was a beautiful little book telling everyone about it and how it would be such a wonderful thing to have our own center, where we wouldn't have to move, a permanent visible presence. And so we just went from there and from each place we would move, we would have more meetings. We did, thanks to Dennis and Nancy as I recall, we had a training from the Gale Foundation that was a weekend long. And we brought in a lot of people to that and helped develop our focus a lot more about what amount we'd be raising, how we would do that. They had some really great booklets about fundraising. And again at the time, there were no foundations in Oklahoma, much less Tulsa, who would support us until later. So it was a very grassroots campaign. It was one person at a time, one gay person in Tulsa at a time getting them on board, having them donate funds. And then we got- I remember sending out a really sappy tear-jerky letter to a foundation in New York City, who I had heard reading through these manuals with Nancy, gave 23 �money to gay causes. And they gave us our first check from a foundation, a $10,000 check from a foundation. And after that, a friend called me from the George Kaiser Foundation and said, "George was looking at the newspaper on his desk about you all and the money you're raising, and he'd like to talk with you about this and see if he could get involved." And I was like, "Okay." Dominoes, so the dominoes started. The Schusterman Foundation. But we had- before any of this large money that way, we focused on house parties, individual people, really telling them how this could happen, would happen, and it would be amazing. We had our main donors. And Dennis helped with that group and really helped us get going. So it was a house party at a time. Marcy Smith: Then again, we're still in the midst of the AIDS crisis at this time. I mean, it's still kind of going on in the late 80s and early 90s as well. And when this kicked off, I will tell you, we got some pushback from the gay guys in the community that here are two women, two- that they didn't even know. Like, we're on the D list. They don't even know who we are. Stepping up to do this. And also, at the time, there had been at least one other nonprofit organization who had a capital campaign and the funds were misused. And so of course, the thought was like, "Well, this is gonna go the same way, even though it had nothing to do with it." It was really difficult to convince, I guess you'd call them the movers and shakers at the time, in the gay community. And then, of course, trying to pull the lesbian community into it was tough. But kind of being told to our face and also hearing what was being said behind our back gave us-Fuel…some fuel to kinda set this up. And we had to do it differently, like Sue said, because we weren't in L.A, we weren't in New York, we're literally- Ford Foundation would cut a check. We didn't have that here. And so, the way we had to do it here was totally opposite. Usually, you got these big donations at the beginning that kick-started you. And here we had to prove ourselves first. Toby Jenkins: Public dollars. Oh, the public dollars in those places. Marcy Smith: And- yeah, there's not gonna be anything from the state. Nothing was going to happen like that here. But because of that, I think it really built this incredible foundation and support for the purpose of it. And again, it was about building this home, a permanent visible presence here. Toby Jenkins: Sue, talk a little bit about how y'all used social events to create buy-in and raise money at the same time. 24 �Sue Welch: I think there were disparate clubs around town and kind of cliquish groups around town. But we wanted to really bring everybody together. So we had- and in years past, there was a large party called the Black and White Party that was hosted by gay guys in Tulsa, which was a really nicely well-attended party. But it was just a party. So we wanted to bring this disparate group of people together behind the same cause. And there had not been a citywide gay party, LGBT party in decades. And so, we developed what we called the Wild Hearts Ball. And the first one we had was at the, then Brady Mansion. And there were so many people there. And this was the first big thing that had happened in Tulsa in a long time. And so we would show a big party, nice music, nice food. We'd show a video about this and ask for donations. And it was just so compelling for people to see so many people there joining in and know that we could all do this together. Toby Jenkins: And everybody could be invited to it. Marcy Smith: Exactly. Sue Welch: Oh yeah. Toby Jenkins: It wasn't an exclusive party. Sue Welch: Exactly, it was not exclusive. Toby Jenkins: It wasn't a girl party, a boy party. Sue Welch: No. Exactly. Yeah, it was the entire community. And that was really super because of our- we would send out a quarterly newsletter. Marcy Smith: This was postal mail about ... . Sue Welch: Postal mail. This is in sizeToby Jenkins: This one's an email. Sue Welch: This is in size 11 point font. See all these names? These are $10 donors to $10,000 donors. The entire community bought into this. It was a beautiful thing. Toby Jenkins: And it was all very smooth and unified, wasn't it? Seu Welch: Yes, yes. Everyone got along. Marcy Smith: Well, no. When we look at itSue Welch: Well, behind the scenes, we had to fight to get where we were, but everyone was just really pushing in the same direction. It was great that way. 25 �Marcy Smith: And again, it's tough to get- I'm sorry, lesbians onboard, 'cause they like to do their sports, they like to do the softball and all that kinda stuff and go to the bars. And so kinda pulling them out was a little difficult. So we did- so we- so it was like how many different ways can we slice this pie and serve it up to people to get people involved? So then we came up with the concept of the Women's Tea Dance. And also supporting women owned businesses and also provide nonprofit organizations the ability toSue Welch: Showcase. Marcy Smith: - Showcase their businesses to women. So imagine that, okay? So you got an all-women Women's Tea Dance, right? We are contacting, I don't know how many places we contacted and got no after no after no after no. No, we are not going to rent to you for a bunch of lesbians. I don't know what they thought it was gonna be. Some, I don't know, orgy or something like that. So we got turned down how many times and then we finally approached Frances. Sue Welch: So the last place I went to was the Greenwood Cultural Center. And I've been everywhere. Physically, meeting face-to-face with people. And so I met with Frances, told her who we were, what we were doing, that it was for ... campaign. Marcy Smith: She's director. Sue Welch: Frances Jordan, the Executive Director of the Greenwood Cultural Center. Marcy Smith: She, by the way, is still the Executive Director of the Greenwood today. Sue Welch: So I gave all my spiel and she said, "Well, Sue." And I expected a no. "Well, Sue, here at the Greenwood Cultural Center, we do not discriminate. So we'd be happy to have you." I was like, "Yay!" So at that first one and subsequent ones, we had 300- more than 300 lesbians from all across the city. And that was fantastic. Huge gatherings. Toby Jenkins: Now to pull in women, you also did the calendar girls. Marcy Smith: So yeah, there was a movie. I don't even know when the movie was, in the mid 90s or something. It was based on a true story. The calendar girls, which was an older group of women in Great Britain, who were trying to raise money for a wing to be added on to their very small hospital. So they came up with this idea to basically have a nudie calendar. Sue Welch: A boudoir calendar. 26 �Marcy Smith: A boudoir calendar. So we did the same thing, but what we did was- and I was really proud of these women that did this, 'cause we were partially Sue Welch: We were surprised by the women who said yes. Marcy Smith: Yeah, I mean, there were some pretty revealing photographs in this calendar. So what- so we didn't know if anybody was gonna- we didn't think anybody would buy the calendar. So we had them get sponsors. So they had to recruit as many people as possible to donate a minimum of like $250 or $500 or something like that to sponsor their month. That's how we raised. I mean, we were just happy to raise $5,000 at a time. $5,000 here, $5,000 there, to start building toward this million dollar, which was a monumental amount of money. When it was determined that that's what we were gonna need to do this, I mean, the community's likeSue Welch: Can't do it. Marcy Smith: "There's no way. You will never do that. Never do that." Sue Welch: The end point was $1.3 million. Toby Jenkins: And so there were naysayers, and there were people who were divisive, and there were people who may have been difficult. You had that, right? Sue Welch: Yeah, but not for long. Marcy Smith: And once the momentum started, itToby Jenkins: So I think I remember garden parties, the garden tour. Sue Welch: We did, we had a home and garden tour. Marcy Smith: Yeah, we did. Sue Welch: We really tried to model things that- the firemen did a calendar for United Way, so-and-so did a home and garden tour for whatever. So we try to model things that would make sense. That people would kind of already know how that worked and go, "Oh my gosh, so the gay community is doing that, great, let's get on to that." Toby Jenkins: What about the LGBT film festival? Was that alsoMarcy Smith: OUT OK. Sue Welch: So OUT OK, that was really progressive for the time. That was the first LGBT out film festival. Phillip Oh and Mark Bonney were in charge of that. They brought films from everywhere, amazing films, and all the proceeds went to the capital campaign. 27 �Marcy Smith: Yeah, talk about being ahead of its time. Sue Welch: Yeah. Marcy Smith: Now there's like gay film festival all the time. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So it was a long lengthy process of raising the money, but you were also creating community and building a unified vision. Very impressed that you were able to do that. But at the same time, you still had to be take care in the community. So there was community centers, yet during this time. We still had community centers and you wanna talk about some of the locations andMarcy Smith: Well, I think where we were, we were at 21st and Memorial, and I think that was a very difficult landlord. It ended up being a very difficult landlord situation. But for me personally, I was glad we got the heck out of Dodge out of that location. I think it was an oppressive location, just because of the color of it and the smell of the smoke. I mean, it just was not- it didn't feel healthy. Toby Jenkins: And it wasn't accessible there. Sue Welch: No. Marcy Smith: It wasn't welcoming. Toby Jenkins: You had to steps to go up. Sue Welch: No. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And then, got up there and the meeting room was downstairs, the bathrooms were downstairs, but we were- it was our center, and we were proud of it. Sue Welch: Yeah. Marcy Smith: Oh yeah. So the next location was the shopping center at 41st off of Yale, right across from Ricardo's Mexican restaurant, which is still there. And so that was, I would say, the best place we had been. And I'm gonna guess it was maybe 3,600 square feet, maybe. Sue Welch: Sounds about right. Yeah, maybe- 3,500. Marcy Smith: - 3,500, So it's give or take, right? And pretty much an open space, so not a lot of segregated space, where people could have private meetings or whatever they might've been doing and so but same kinda thing. We were there for a while, and then the landlord got a little weirded out and stuff. We were just trying to bide our time to get this going, so that we could own our own home instead of being kicked out 28 �eventually. And I say that- they just didn't wanna renew the lease. Or they just decided, given us notice and whatever, so. Toby Jenkins: What were some of the services that were being offered at the center? Sue Welch: Well, I'm glad you're bringing that up, Toby, because behind the scenes, while all this was going, certainly, Dennis and other people and the volunteers- Dennis was getting the Gill foundation to set up computer labs and all ofToby Jenkins: The Bohnett Foundation Sue Welch: Yes, the Bohnett. And all the services continuing, grief groups and game nights andToby Jenkins: HIV testing. Sue Welch: Yes, and counseling and all those things were still going on. Toby Jenkins: I can remember, just wanna throw this out there and get your thoughts on it. I can remember at that Center, at in the Highland Park Shopping Center, volunteering on a night where it was first time I'd ever been interacting. We had a transgender support group. So do you remember- we've talked about lesbian and gay men. Do you remember being an intentional outreach to transgender persons, or? Sue Welch: Not as far as with fundraising, because I don't think at that time we had a large group for the fundraising aspect. But certainly in the service, we established town halls finding out what people wanted, what we needed, so that we could provide that in this new place that was gonna be our permanent home. So absolutely in the services. Toby Jenkins: So you assess the community? Did y'all have surveys, or? Sue Welch: We did, at each Pride picnic, we had surveys. We had a large gathering at the library and we handed out surveys and collected information about what they want in the center, specifically as far as even rooms, art gallery, that sort of thing, kitchen, services they might want, locations they might want. Toby Jenkins: And so y'all were being paid to do all of this and you had a full-time position, right? Marcy Smith: No. Sue Welch: We had full-time positions at our jobs. Marcy Smith: : So every fundraising event for the Pyramid Project started off with a budget- 29 �Sue Welch: Zero. Marcy Smith: - which was zero. That was what we started with. You're gonna donate this, you're gonna donate your time, you're gonna donate the goods, all that kinda thing. So our goal was that a lot of capital campaigns had budgets that as much as 25-30% would go to administrative overhead of what was being raised. Toby Jenkins: Paid to development workers. Marcy Smith: So our goal was to have 95% of the funds that we raised, go directly to the capital. So that meant 5% to do all this. And I think, ultimately, we ended up being aboutSue Welch: I think about seven. Marcy Smith: - 7-8% or something rather than 5%. So we were right around 92% of all the funds that were raised, stayed right there in the community foundation. That was the other thing. It was a big milestone, was going to Tulsa Community Foundation because it was about credibility. And so we needed to have our money at a place where it was managed for a place of credibility. So that was a huge milestone when we were able to have those funds placed at the Tulsa Community Foundation which they are still at today. So that was a big deal. That added some ... . Sue Welch: Yeah, through Dennis and Nancy, they introduced us to people there and got all that set up safe and safeguarded. So then, donors would feel even more comfortable. Toby Jenkins: So about how many years was the fundraising part of it? Marcy Smith: Six. Sue Welch: 6-7. Marcy Smith: Yeah, six, 2007 when we did it. Toby Jenkins: Did people grow fatigued from that? I mean, did theyMarcy Smith: Oh yeah. I mean, it didn't take too many years that when Sue and I would show up at a party, people were turning away. I mean, they knew we were gonna be pressing the flesh and, hi, how you doing? We haven't seen a donation from you in a while. But I mean, it just kinda got to be a joke. We were like, "Are we gonna get invited to anything this year?" 30 �Toby Jenkins: So I'm gonna take you back. This is your life. It's January 1st, 2000, the night after the Y2K fear. What were y'all doing on January 1st, 2000? Do you remember? Marcy Smith: Well, I can tell you what I was doing. I was head of the Y2K project at Tulsa County. So I spent that New Year's Eve in the computer room doing one of these. And it was a five-year project that I led. And I had the same budget from my boss which was, you're not gonna spend any money on this project. We weren't able to do that because of software costs, but it was a very small budget. So that's where I was. So I was in a computer room in Tulsa, Oklahoma that night. And it went perfectly, by the way. Sue Welch: Are you remembering a house party? Toby Jenkins: Yeah, on New Year's Day. Sue Welch: On New Year's Day. Marcy Smith: Oh, New Year's Day? Okay. Marcy Smith: New Year's Day, we had a house party at our house. Marcy Smith: Yeah, and invited several people. And I think we'd seen you peripherally, but this was your first time to reallyToby Jenkins: Be pulled into the project. Sue Welch: Yeah, yeah. To be ... . Toby Jenkins: My point isSue Welch: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: - I can remember getting invited to that on New Year's Day after we had all survived. And that was my first time to hear about it. The project to raise money for our permanent center. Now, I was very familiar with the center. Sue Welch: Sure. Toby Jenkins: But it was the first time I'd ever been included in that. And I had no money, but I was able to make just a little bitty tiny gift. But you made me feel like my little tiny gift was as important as the people who were writing the big checks. Sue Welch: It was. 31 �Toby Jenkins: So you spent five or six years raising this money and keeping the community focused on the prize. When did we buy the building? And do you wanna talk a little bit about the effort to finally purchase property? Sue Welch: So as we were getting, we set a goal that we would have a certain amount of money raised before we would even look at property. And we were reviewing a dozen or more properties over and over, as we got to that point. And Dennis called and said, "Hey, have you looked at this place at 4th and Kenosha?" And we're like, "Okay, we'll go look at that one." And so we called up the realtor who was listed there and I said, "Okay, great. I'm gonna have to talk to another realtor and tell him who we are and what we're looking for." And so went to his office and on his wall was a big picture of John F. Kennedy. I was like, "I think I'm okay." And so I met Max Tankersley and told him about who we were and he said, "Okay, great. I'd love to show you this". So we walked in and at the time, it had been a communications company, so there were wires literally everywhere. It was just full of communications things. But it was so solid because it used to be an oil company's building, where they built explosives to dig oil wells before they had the bits. So the walls are about 12 inches thick. It is just so solid. So walking through, it's really solid, it's not dirty, it's not dank, it's bright…Lots of windows, lots of space. We're thinking, "Oh my gosh, there's so much space here. But from these surveys, we could do this, we could do that, we could do all the things that the people are wanting." And so I think we probably called Dennis first and said, "Dennis, this is a really neat place." And we had a key group of donors who just kept donating, were donating substantially. And so, we rented two trolley cars. We had a nice little reception at a house in Terwilliger Heights. And we said, "We're gonna take you all to a place we want you to see that we believe this is gonna be our center." And so we got 'em all fed and liquored up and got 'em on the trolleys. And so we came in and several of them were likebecause it wasn't rough compared to the things we've been looking at, but it wasn't fancy by any means. Marcy Smith: And grey. Sue Welch: And it was downtown, which was one of the locations people wanted, but not everyone. And so I think several of them went, "Oh, wow, this is really great, great vision." And some of 'em went, "Ugh, this is what you're picking? It was a little effort in getting people on board with that. So we created- we got together a group of designers and if you want to haveToby Jenkins: Gay designers. 32 �Sue Welch: Gay designers. And if you want to have fun, get a group of gay designers together and tell them, we're not paying them anything and everything they develop needs to come in free, all the accessories, all the furniture. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, but they have to raise the money to furnish the room. Sue Welch: And so that was fun. Kirk Holt, I appointed him as the chair, 'cause he's great at getting all those people together. So we developed these vision boards for each of the rooms and we had more people come and more people look, and that really helped with donations. This was, of course, after we bought the building, and that helped also engage people for volunteerism, if they couldn't give or if they wanted to do more, to physically work at the building in renovations. I served as the general contractor for the renovations and we had a ... . Marcy Smith: And she got paid zero. Sue Welch: And we had literally hundreds of volunteers working thousands of hours. The things we had to hire, have electricians, licensed plumbers, that sort of thing. We certainly did that. But I mean, so many people learned how to sheet rock, insulate things, tear down walls. Some of my happiest memories are remembering these guys and looking at you Dennis, doing that work, that heavy, hard work. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So the building was purchased, let's talk about that morning after years of fundraising and this was the- you're trying to keep everybody rowing in the right direction. Tell us about that morning, when you invited the community to come and look at it and we raised the first rainbow flag. Sue Welch: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: From our flagpole and we had ... Marcy Smith: Talking about the Field of Dreams? Sue Welch: Nope. Marcy Smith: Oh, okay. Toby Jenkins: No, I'm talking about the morning we ... Marcy Smith: Oh, the grand opening. Toby Jenkins: Well, it wasn’t the grand opening, it was the morning that we ... Sue Welch: That was our first flag. 33 �Toby Jenkins: The building was ours, and we raised the flag for the first time. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: You had a bagpiper on the roof. Sue Welch: Yeah, yep, had a bagpiper on the roof, we had Rick Hollingsworth give us a blessing. Toby Jenkins: Probably, a thousand people showed up. Sue Welch: The first time so many people had even been in the building. And I remember it was so loud downstairs in the main hall. I was looking around, I'm not a loud speaker and I thought, "I've gotta find somebody, I've gotta get up on these stairs, I gotta find somebody to get the attention of this crowd. And I saw Rebecca Ungerman out there and I said, "Rebecca." And so I got Rebecca up on the stairs and everyone was milling about, crammed in there and just excited. And so she got the crowd's attention and we just had a little, here's your new home people, let's complete this project. Toby Jenkins: Yep, first timeSue Welch: Yep. Toby Jenkins: - this was ours, it belonged to us. Sue Welch: Yeah, people were so excited. Toby Jenkins: Wasn't leased, wasn't rented, no landlord could take our mortgage away. Sue Welch: Exactly. Toby Jenkins: And we were able to raise our rainbow flag. Sue Welch: Yep, show who we were, know that we'd have signage on the building that it couldn't be taken away because that was a problem with so many of the places, moving so often caused breaks in services, not being able to identify our building, our storefront, where we were leasing, caused difficulty in people's access. And so now, we had a place we could put signage, have our flag, we had a corner in downtown Tulsa, in the heart of Oklahoma. Marcy Smith: And as most neighborhoods go after the gays move in, this area of Tulsa and downtown has exploded with development, exploded. Toby Jenkins: And here you have it, we can verify documentation that the gay folks revitalized downtown Tulsa you now at this point. 34 �Marcy Smith: Absolutely. Marcy Smith: This Pearl District, you have- absolutely right. Sue Welch: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: 'Cause it was the truth. Sue Welch: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: Because it was just, mostly downtown was abandoned buildings that were boarded up. Sue Welch: Yep. Toby Jenkins: Nobody lived down here. There weren't any stores or you didn't have people walking their pets, so. Sue Welch: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: But it's what we could afford and we got it. Tell us about that year we spent working on it, but at the same time, we were operating the centerSue Welch: Sure. Toby Jenkins: - with all of its servicesSue Welch: Sure. Toby Jenkins: - at its old location. Sue Welch: Marcy had a good job that allowed me to spend a lot of time during that time away from my practice. And so every Saturday and Sunday, we would have volunteers. One of my cohorts would help check 'em in and we give assignments. Some people would just be sweeping, some people would be putting up walls. Toby Jenkins: Or ladders. On ladders. Sue Welch: Yeah. Oh, on ladders, painting, cleaning, taking up tile from the floor. You name it. Tiling new bathroom floors, from A to Z. So volunteers full out Saturdays, Sundays, weekend after weekend after weekend to get this accomplished on a shoestring, but properly and still involving people. That was as much part of it as anything. It's one thing to pay for everything to get done and come on in. We created this beautiful jewel box for you. But it's another thing to have people go, I created this. I helped open these doors. I painted this door. That was huge. 35 �Toby Jenkins: So tell us about the grand opening, and the Field of Dreams, dinners, andSue Welch: So the Field of Dreams, we did have requirements because we were changing the use from what it was previously to a public space. So we had to create more accessible ramps, elevators, doorways, things like that, and all that added up to quite some expense. So our first official event here was called the Field of Dreams. If we build it, they will come. And so we had volunteers in softball uniforms, and we had teams thatToby Jenkins: Cute gay boys. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Marcy Smith: We had team captains. Sue Welch: Not girls in softball uniforms. Marcy Smith: We had team captains, so it was baseball teams and it was a competition. Sue Welch: So they were bidding against each other. There was nothing they were gonna win. There were no prizes. There were no auction items. This was full-out cash. They were playing against each other, and we raised all the money, over $130,000 cash, that night without any auction items to do all of the ADA requirements. Marcy Smith: And it was adopting rooms. So these were concept drawings of what the various spaces were gonna be. So if you were a kitchen person, or you were interested in the library, or the art gallery, the theater. That was really great to have those concept drawings, so that people could visualize what this incredible space was gonna look like, based on the town halls, and what they said they wanted in the space. So we were able to give 'em pretty much everything they asked for. The other thing I remember, too, is the size of the building, okay? So we were at 3,500 square feet. This facility is 18,000 square feet. We got so much pushback from, are you kidding me? You're never gonna be able to fill that space. Sue Welch: We don't need that. Marcy Smith: .. We don't need that space. And here we are, nearly 20 years later, and in my opinion, we could add on a few places, but. Toby Jenkins: So any details about the grand opening? I'm trying to remember. Sue Welch: I remember, we did balloons, 'cause at that time- 36 �Marcy Smith: We did an non-environmental thing. Sue Welch: - we were not that environmentally conscious. I'm sorry, I apologize. Marcy Smith: We released balloons. Sue Welch: But we did have a bagpiper on the roof, which was really cool. Everyone was just so thrilled, and walking through the place. It was just giddy, giddying us, it was wonderful. Marcy Smith: Smudging, blessing the building. People laying hands on the building. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Marcy Smith: Good energy. Sue Welch: It was. Toby Jenkins: ... American blessings. Marcy Smith: Yes, yes. Sue Welch: It was good energy. Toby Jenkins: And then we moved in. Sue Welch: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And the programs began. Sue Welch: And the programs began. And yes, if you build it, they will come. It's absolutely true. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Sue Welch: Given the proper leadership, and we had such great leadership then, and people pushing for great programs. Toby Jenkins: And so prior to this, we would have these huge meetings or events. We would have to rent space, or we would have to cram into whatever place we had. I can remember many, many things that we would use in those other spaces. Or when the sodomy laws were struck down, we didn't have a big enough space, so we had to use a restaurant on Cherry Street. But then this building finally had enough space that if we could mobilize and fight for our communitySue Welch: Yeah. 37 �Toby Jenkins: - Celebrate, remember those. I mean, it became a place where people did their funerals, their commitment ceremonies, and where we met for meetings to fight for our rights. Sue Welch: Yeah. Yeah, we could celebrate and mobilize and honor each other in our own home. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember some of the major events that this building was here to witness and testify to? Marcy Smith: Well, legalized same-sex marriage for number one. But also it becoming a hub for pride. So that we could centralize pride activities, which was really pretty cool to be able to do that. Otherwise, we were renting, leasing space to try to do pride events. We're not without negative things happening, and one of the things that wasn't publicized at the time that we did it but we did it for safety was, we put bulletproof glass in this building because we felt that at some point, unfortunately, that may be needed. And so we had a drive-by shooting in this building and thankfully, the bulletproof glass did its job. So never more thankful to have that particular decision to save people ... – [Bullet-resistant glass was not initially installed. It was added in 2017 after a drive-by shooting from a pellet gun made 13 holes in the front windows and front door. Wes Smith, an OkEq member, challenged the community to send in $13 each to replace the glass. The challenge went viral, people across the country and world sent in money. In total, more than $33,000 was committed which allowed OkEq to replace all downstairs windows and the front door with bullet-resistant glass.] Toby Jenkins: So do you remember when the sodomy laws were struck down, we celebrated at a restaurant, but the next major event was when gays were allowed to be in the military ... . And do you remember the events around that? Sue Welch: So yes, we were able to celebrate that in a fantastic way and we actually created the veterans lobby here, top second floor, off the elevator. And then another pivotal time ... Toby Jenkins: And we ... - just a minute. We invited military recruiters to come to this ... . Sue Welch: That's right, that's right. Toby Jenkins: And they came all the way from where, the Pentagon. Sue Welch: Fantastic, yes. That's right ... . 38 �Toby Jenkins: And we became the very first place in the United States where gay people served, signed up to join the military. We were the face of that on the front page of 1900 newspapers the next day in the heartland, in the middle of the country. Sue Welch We were also because of Mary and Sharon and Gay and Sue and were able to celebrate the pivotal gay marriage right here, in the center, with those ladies here in Tulsa. So yeah, so many pivotal things here. Toby Jenkins: Remember when the White House came to visit, when we got behind the Affordable Care Act cause we knew we needed to sign people up so that Obamacare, and they sent a representative here 'cause we had signed up 147 people in one day. Sue Welch: It's fantastic. It's fantastic, yeah. Toby Jenkins: So Sue, you called it the field of dreams. Why did you call it the field of dreams? Sue Welch: Because if we build it, they will come. Toby Jenkins: And did they come? Sue Welch: They did, and actually even more, in more numbers than I dreamed. I mean the programming and Toby, I know you're greatly responsible for a lot of that programming that started happening. And the people upon people, upon people who came and had fun or had a service or were recognized and seen or just got to be able to be with their family, their LGBTQ+ family, just people fill this place the whole entire time, all the time. I know I would get update calls from you saying how many people had come and what pivotal help had been given to certain people that day. Just incredible. Marcy Smith: Well, saving lives. Sue Welch: Absolutely, saving lives. Marcy Smith: People who were at the end of their rope. I mean, just needing a place to come where they can literally walk in the door. Sue Welch: ... you're safe. Marcy Smith: Yes, this is a safe place. Sue Welch: A safe affirming place. 39 �Toby Jenkins: So you spent a lot of work for the community to make this happen, and on behalf of the community, the LGBTQ+ community, I wanna say thank you so much for that. Any regrets about it? Sue Welch: None. Marcy Smith: None. Sue Welch: None. And I have to say there were so many hundreds of people behind us who really made it happen, who made it a success. We were just able to drive some of it. Toby Jenkins: So this is a- in 2026 and you ladies are moving into your middle age years. Marcy Smith: Thank you for that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: There were some difficult times, 'cause just because we had the building doesn't mean- I mean, we've had some vandalism, we've had physical threats, we've had some deaths, some heartaches, and we've had some other challenges too. You just didn't hang up your hats and say, we're done helping the community or being involved. What have you had to do in the last few years? Sue Welch: So things were rocking along really great for a while. We got some breathing time and just having fun with friends and things. But there were some individuals, boards, leaderships, that didn't go through what all of us went through. They didn't go through the turmoil and the trial and the difficulties that all of us went through. They're a younger generation, they grew up being able to be married, they grew up with less offense to them, they grew up being able to put their partner's picture on their office desk. Just so different from us. When some younger leadership, I think I'll just categorize it that way, came in, I don't think it was- they had less ownership. So, COVID came and that changed everything for everybody. But generationally, I think we're significantly different in that. We like to gather physically together and COVID made that really difficult. So coming out of that, changes started happening. We noticed we weren't getting notices about things happening at the center, even post-COVID. It seemed there was less going on. People weren't gathering at the center. We didn't reactivate those activities and events and things for people to physically gather. As the world did, we all became a little more siloed. So I think we lost a lot of interest, funding, relativity during that time. 40 �In February of 2024, we got a notice saying that the organization needed to raise $100,000 to keep the doors open. We were in shock. And so we met up with some people and said, "What's going on here? What's happening?" And so Marcy and I, thanks to some people, we were asked to be on the gala committee that year. We were generously given the leeway to co-chair the gala. And fortunately, we kinda did our thing. We've done a lot of galas. Well, by the gala committee, we were generously offered to co-chair the gala. We had leadership difficulty. I was coming in, again, as old lesbians going, "What do you know?" I mean, that was an old time. You can't do anything for us. And we had a hard time not going ... listen to whippersnappers. This is how it was. So ultimately, that gala was the highest grossing and highest net gala in OkEq’s history. And we were able to really build up our coffers again, and keep us open and keep the center going and alive. Marcy Smith: In 90 days. Sue Welch: Yeah, in a very short time. Marcy Smith: There was no one chairing this. It was not gonna happen. Sue Welch: Yeah, there was not gonna be a gala. We even had foundations tell us, "You should not be having a gala right now." And we said, "For two reasons. We have to have a gala. We must have a gala. One, of course, for the fundraising. And, we know we can do this. Two, for the community. Because our community has scattered to the winds. And we need to bring them back together." Toby Jenkins: So we talked about the pandemic, and we talked about the financial challenges the organizations have, and we've talked about generational differences, and- but we also have political issues that are impacting our community. It's 2026, so as your sign-off message, I've asked you to think about this. Do you have a challenge, or a message, or a final words that you'd like to give to people who might see this, and either feel the motivation to get involved, or maybe even have an explanation of how important it is? Do you have any final words for our viewers? Sue Welch: You go first. Marcy Smith: I would say that don't discount having a place, a physical place. I have an IT background and we're in a virtual world at this point, but there is so much in life, especially in a human experience, virtual stuff cannot give you and provide you that connection that you have to have by just being in the same space with people who support you, and that you can provide fine services. 41 �The whole point of this Center was for it to be a resource center for people. We didn't think that we were gonna be all things to all people, but we wanted to have a hub, a place where the organization could also work with other organizations to provide services to people, and to have a gathering place for us, and we're seeing this. We are seeing this in the world now. We are seeing psychological studies coming out about how this isolationism, and being at home, and this whole virtual reality, if you will, it's not. It's not real. What is real is being with people, engaging with people, celebrating with people, having really hard times with people. It's a human experience. It cannot be replaced with technology. That's my background, and I know that. And so it's about having a home and a place to come back to. And supporting an organization that's going to help our community be a better place. Not just the LGBTQ+ community, but other members in this community we call home, we call Tulsa, reaching out to other organizations to help in that effort, because it's a tough time, and funding is getting ripped out from non-profits. They are literally facing their demise. National public Radio… all of these things that we held to be, assumed that it was always gonna be here, always thought we would have public funding for the arts, really. Always thought we would have freedom of speech, thought we would have freedom of the press. The press is what is gonna hold our elected officials accountable, in addition to us. So we are at a really, really tough time, and it has been set on fire because of technology. Because we are not gathering together. Because we're holed up in our respective places, and we've got to come together again. We've got to support each other again in a physical way, in addition to a technological way. And having a home that is a place where we can gather, where we can rally, where we can figure out strategies to do this, is really important because if the decision is ever made to lose this space, then we become invisible again. They, whoever they are succeeded. They don't have a place to call home anymore. They don't have a place to gather anymore. They don't have a place to rally. They don't have a place to celebrate our artists. They don't have a place for our performers to come. They don't have a place to have counseling. Transgendered individuals don't have a place to have health care. We don't have a- we're burning books, and we're banning books. We don't have a library anymore to celebrate that aspect. All of these things are here for anyone who wants to come in and celebrate LGBTQIA+ individuals as a community, but as a community, as an accepting and affirming community that we call home. And that's Tulsa. It's so much more than a physical building, and that's where I would say, generationally moving forward, I hope that you all 42 �can understand how important the space is to maintain. Can we change the space? Absolutely. Can we change up the different things that are here? Absolutely. That's what a home's all about. It evolves and it changes as we need it to change. But I am hopeful and lay this on the table for folks coming behind us, please keep it. Please figure out how to keep it. Make it your own, make it evolve and change as our needs change. But allowing it to go away, I think, will be a grave mistake for our community. And I'm not saying that it is. I'm not saying that it is. But I think there are individuals out there that feel that we don't need a space to call our own, where we can celebrate each other, a physical space. And home is a really big word, encompasses a lot of things. Sue Welch: I really couldn't say any better than that, but just to say that, when you lose something that so many people have identified with, you lose your identity. When you don't communicate to every group, not just the current generation, but every group, about what's here for them. When you don't have physical group meetings, people physically gathering in large groups, that sounds scary to some people now, just because of COVID, but we have to have face-to-face large groups to support each other. The harder it gets politically, financially, the more we need to physically gather and we have our home to do it in. So let's not lose that, let's not take it for granted, let's use it. Toby Jenkins: This is perfect. So while you're the CP's ambassadors, called them the Iron Lady, Madam Prime Minister, was my nicknames for them. What are you presently doing? I mean what do you- your careers and the work that you do now? Sue Welch: Well, we are entrepreneurial. We own a business together called OsteoStrong, which is a wellness center that focuses on increasing your bone density, your muscular strength and your ligament and tendon strength. That's healthy for everybody. We have over 300 members. We're loving it and we do have some of our community members who are also OsteoStrong members and we do love that. We garden, we travel, we've loved that forever. I serve as a trustee again on the Board of Trustees for Oklahomans For Equality. Toby Jenkins: In your medical practice there, you're focusing a lot on issues with the emerging, growing older adult population, so that you're still serving a community, every aspect of it. Sue Welch: Sure, sure. Toby Jenkins: Anything else for us and our founder. Do you have any other things or archivist any things, before we bring our interview to a close? 43 �Sue Welch: I just wanna say thank you to all of you for all the work you're doing and have done, because we could not have done anything, any of this without you. Amanda Thompson: Yeah, no, it's great. And thank you guys for sharing this. And as the one youngster in the room, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you're saying and the stuff you talk about is really important. I'm personally very lucky and very happy to be a part of furthering those connections and helping people just get the word out, how important these things are. Sue Welch: Thank you, Amanda. Marcy Smith: We have to pay it forward. Amanda Thompson: Yeah. Marcy Smith: We do. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, thank you so much. You have been listening toMarcy Smith: Marcy Smith. Sue Welch: Sue Welch. Toby Jenkins: - here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center on January the 16th, 2026. Addendum: Sue Welch requested the following be added to the transcript. "My Dad, Lloyd Welch was a 3rd generation brick mason and builder. He helped with the initial renovation when we bought the building for the Dennis R Neill Equality Center. He taught volunteers and various friends many skills that we needed during that time to get the building ready. He taught and worked with Stan Smalts, Dale Tune and Marty Steinmetz, replacing and hanging exterior doors; David Hoot patching interior plaster walls; Norm Kopp tuck pointing worn brick exterior wall joints of the building, as well as many other tasks with other volunteers. He had a great time with the guys and they with him. They all really appreciated learning from him. Some of them even took the skills they learned from our volunteer efforts into their own lives later as well. My Mom, Joan Welch provided moral encouragement and cheerleading support during that time filled with physical work. We would all break for lunch in the garage, now the Lynn Riggs Theatre. Nancy McDonald, everyone's Mom, brought cookies for snacks every weekend for the volunteer crew. It was a fantastic time of camaraderie, hard work and joy!" 44 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Sue Welch and Marcy Smith Interview Description An account of the resource Sue Welch and Marcy Smith share their personal journeys, highlighting their experiences growing up in Oklahoma and navigating their identities as members of the LGBTQ+ community. Marcy recounts her childhood in Tulsa, her education at Oklahoma Christian College, and her early awareness of her sexual orientation. She reflects on the challenges faced by LGBTQ+ individuals in a conservative environment, including the need for stealth and the importance of finding community. Sue shares her upbringing in Ponca City and her academic journey at OSU. Both women discuss their relationships, the evolution of their identities, and the significance of community support in their lives.<br /><br />Marcy and Sue recount their involvement with Oklahomans for Equality and the development of the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. They reflect on the challenges of coming out to their families, the societal pressures they faced, and the importance of creating a safe space for LGBTQ+ individuals in Tulsa. Their stories are filled with humor, resilience, and a sense of belonging, showcasing the power of love and community in overcoming adversity. In this episode, Marcy Smith and Sue Welch share their inspiring journey of establishing a community center for the LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa, Oklahoma. They successfully organized fundraising events, such as house parties and the Wild Hearts Ball, to raise awareness and funds. Their determination led to significant milestones, including securing a $10,000 grant from a New York foundation and eventually purchasing a permanent space for their community center, which became a hub for support, celebration, and activism.<br /><br />The conversation highlights the importance of physical spaces for community gathering, especially in a time when virtual connections are prevalent. Marcy and Sue emphasize the need for ongoing support and engagement within the community, particularly in light of recent political challenges. They reflect on the center's role in pivotal moments for LGBTQ+ rights, including the legalization of same-sex marriage and the repeal of discriminatory laws. Their message is clear: maintaining a physical home for the community is essential for fostering connection, support, and resilience against adversity. Subject The topic of the resource Sue Welch and Marcy Smith Oral History Interview from January 16, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sue Welch, Marcy Smith, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 16, 2026 2026 AIDS AIDS/HIV Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill Dennis R. Neill Equality Center Equality Center Equality Center Opening Gay marriage HIV HIV/AIDs interview LGBT marriage Marcy Smith OHR OkEq Equality Center OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma Christian College Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahomans for Human Rights Oklahomans for Human Rights - Tulsa Chapter oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU Pyramid Project same sex marriage Sue Welch Toby Jenkins TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) video Wild Hearts Ball https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/b95930bb43b6204cc0b535ce32caa168.mp4 469e654a90e50910f02a606edc370ad8 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/de83922a814abfccb89b44324379c8b2.pdf 24694ed11bcd4bf4f24f336d45fea72a PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Tom Neal Interview Conducted by Dennis Neill Date: April 30, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, May 23, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Tom Neal Summary In this in-depth interview, Tom Neal shares his life journey, from growing up in Oklahoma to becoming a community activist and publisher. He discusses his experiences with LGBTQ+ advocacy, the evolution of Tulsa's community spaces, and his reflections on social progress and challenges. Keywords LGBTQ+ history, Tulsa community, activism, journalism, HIV/AIDS, LGBTQ+ rights, community building, personal story Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction 00:29 Tom Neal's Early Life and Family Background 01:15 Education and Early Influences 02:11 School Experiences and French Class Antics 03:11 College Years and Architectural Studies 04:21 Moving Back to Tulsa and Community Involvement 07:16 Growing Up LGBTQ+ in Tulsa 08:38 Realization of Sexual Identity and Puberty 09:46 Early Role Models and Family Support 11:20 First Awareness of Being Different 12:28 Family Reactions and Relationships 13:54 Exploring Sexuality and Personal Growth 15:16 Involvement in LGBTQ+ Organizations and Activism 16:42 Community Engagement in Dallas and Tulsa 18:40 Founding Tulsa Family News 2 �20:05 Courage to Be Open and Advocate 22:12 Memories of Bruce Goff and Architectural Roots 24:08 First Encounters with HIV/AIDS in Los Angeles 27:24 Activism and Civil Rights Work 35:19 Journalism and Publishing Journey 42:54 Proudest Achievements and Challenges 44:17 Memorable Moments and Mistakes in Publishing 45:24 Reflections on Community and Progress 50:22 Involvement with Oklahoma LGBTQ+ Organizations 58:51 Early Days of the LGBTQ+ Center in Tulsa 01:06:49 Community Challenges and Progress 01:11:49 The Impact of Media and Community Scattering 01:16:46 Reflections on Activism and Community Building 01:23:18 Future Plans and Personal Reflections Tom Neal Oral History Interview April 30, 2026 Dennis Neill: Good morning. It is April the 30th, 2026. I am Dennis Neill, and I am in the Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library at the Oklahoma Equality Center, and I'm here with Tom Neal. We have the pleasure of interviewing him, and with me is Mary Bishop-Baldwin, an archivist that is working with us here at the Center. So Tom, would you introduce yourself by mentioning your name and your age and where you grew up? Tom Neal: I'm Tom Neal. I'm 68. I was born in Oklahoma City, but we moved here when I was three, so I pretty much consider myself being from Tulsa. Dennis Neill: And tell me a little bit about your early life, your family life, your education as an adolescent. Tom Neal: Sure, so my father is a retired anesthesiologist, and he moved here to start the anesthesia department at St. Francis, and of course at that time, St. Francis was the edge of the city, and our little housing development, Holiday Hills, was about the only only place to live that was near the hospital. I think that was even before the LaFortunes donated their farm to become LaFortune Park. I don't remember this, but that's what I remember my mom saying. I have four brothers, two older, two younger. I'm biologically related to my three younger, two younger brothers, excuse me, and my two older brothers were adopted by my family, though they're biologically related to each other. Went through TPS, Carnegie, which I'm proud to say is still considered one of the best schools in the city, elementary schools, Nimitz, and then Memorial, and most people usually get thrown out of private schools and wind up going to a public school. I managed to get thrown out of a public school and wound up finishing up at Holland Hall my last couple of years, so I'm not sure it's a distinction to be proud of, but it's part of my history. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: What did you do to get kicked out? 3 �Tom Neal: I think I smarted off to one of the disciplinarians who was a coach, and they had sent me home for something, and I was feeling oppositional, so instead of going home, which most kids probably want to go home, I went to my French class, and he came and threatened to drag me bodily out of the French class, and so I spoke to him only in French at that point, which of course, and he later told my parents that I had cussed him out in French. I don't know, I didn't know when he cussed words in French, so that wasn't actually true, but anyway….wound up being one of the best things for me academically. I spent a couple semesters, well, I spent one semester at the American College in Paris. I was a little too young as a freshman to be that far away from home. There's a reason you do it in junior year, but I came back and went to the University of Tulsa for a couple semesters, and then I transferred to Rice in Houston and finished up there, class of 1980, with a degree in art and architectural history. Not very employable, but very interesting, and also a degree that involved a lot of writing, which may be relevant to other things. I also wound up having pretty intensive writing instruction when I was at Holland Hall, so that was a benefit there, too, as well as a couple of really good French teachers at Holland Hall. Then I moved from Houston to Dallas, started going to architecture school at the University of Texas at Arlington, and then left to go to an architecture program in Los Angeles, lived there for about four years, and then decided that the day that they had, well, this is just circumstantial, but the day that they had both an earthquake and a tornado in Los Angeles is the day that I moved back to Tulsa. So, and then worked here in Tulsa for a couple years, particularly for two architects, Kathleen Page and Rachel Williams-Zabrowski. Wonderful, wonderful people, who, after I worked with them maybe two years, Kathleen took me aside and said, we're firing you, not because we don't like your work, but because you need to go back to school and finish your architecture degree, because I had begun it, but not finished it. And I said, well, gee, thanks, maybe, but, so I wound up shopping my credits to Oklahoma State and then to OU, and Oklahoma State, they're like, well, you didn't do it here, you need to start from the beginning, and OU said, we're going to give you credit for almost everything, so I'm a Sooner, that was a no-brainer. So Rice, 1980, University of Oklahoma, 1989. Lived in Dallas again and then came back to Tulsa after my mother had an aneurysm, which she survived, thanks be to God, and have been in Tulsa. And that was probably, well, you [Dennis] and I knew each other before. I had met you when TOHR was almost new, and you and Doug [Hartson] and all that crew were doing stuff at the Aaronson Auditorium. But I think that might have been when I was working for Kathleen. And then I came back in 93 and got involved in, went to Pride, at that point still kind of in the wilds of Mohawk Park, and kind of got involved in the community. Kelly was leading things, Kelly Kirby was leading things then, and kind of went from there. Before I had a little, I'd been involved in a retail, a lesbian owned retail store in Dallas on Cedar Springs, in the heart of a kind of gay village. And so I tried to recreate that in Tulsa, even though it's a very different dynamic. Dallas had that concentrated 4 �little bit of community, whereas now and then, Tulsa's community is kind of scattered. And I had a store at the Silver Star Retail Store for about a year. Dennis Neill: Do you remember what year that would have been? Tom Neal: That would have been about probably 94-ish, 1994-ish. Dennis Neill: And was that Tomfoolery? Tom Neal: Yes, it was called Tomfoolery. Yeah, and it was a, kind of like Tulsa Family News, it was a, compared to some LGBT retail establishments, it was a pretty vanilla, clean, I didn't have things that you wouldn't, that you'd be ashamed to show your mother, for example. So, same with the paper, did not, tried to be a legitimate news outlet within my skill set. Anyway, so how am I doing? Dennis Neill: Great, so let's talk a little bit more about your early years, growing up in school, kind of your peers and your activities both within the school and any out of school activities that were of particular interest to you during that growing up phase. Tom Neal: Golly, well, I was like a lot of gay kids, I was probably pretty obviously gay, from elementary school, and I do remember getting harassed, at that time, it was just bullying, it was kind of the ethos of the time. A little bit at Carnegie, more so at Nimitz, junior high seems to bring out the worst, particularly in boys, but there's some mean girls too, you know. And actually, I remember also getting harassed at Memorial, there was one young man who used to, I didn't, I don't think I even knew his name, I don't think I'd ever met him, but whenever we would encounter each other in the hallways, he would scream faggot at me, which was, well, that's lovely. And I'm like, you know. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: How did you react to that? Tom Neal: Well, it made me angry, but there wasn't, I mean, there were no, there were no very few, to my knowledge, no support resources. I, like a lot of gay men of that era, tried to, was kind of in denial. I think, I do remember at age 16, I decided, being gay is not very easy and I'm not going to be gay, because I'm just a pig-headed gay and I figured I could just kind of will myself not to be gay. And that lasted until 24. And I was in a relationship with a young lady and she broke up with me and I thought, probably this is the time I need to just acknowledge, but we lived together and, to some degree had a fairly successful relationship. Dennis Neill: Any children? Tom Neal: No, no, no, no. We were not married and we did not have children. We worked really hard not to have children, trust me. Dennis Neill: So, going back a little bit to when you were first feeling your identity, can you talk a little bit about your evolution of realizing what your identity is and how you experienced that early on? Tom Neal: I think the thing that's important to remember, I’m a little bit of a history nerd, so, I was born in 1957, so 1977, I was 20. Back five years, 1972, I was 15, right? If I'm doing the math right. And 1972 Stonewall had only happened three years before. 5 �There was no, there was not, I mean, if you wanted to like look at images of a male figure, I think, like, you got to check out the football players' tight pants and look at the underwear section in the Sears and Roebuck, which is all airbrushed by the way, so. So, I mean, there was no, there was no, there was no, I mean, there was actually no role models. There was nothing out there and particularly, maybe in New York or, California, but not, I don't think so even there particularly, but even less so in Tulsa, Oklahoma. My parents, who wound up over the years being tremendously supportive of TOHR and the things I did with the community, loaning me, donating at times, loaning me their truck if we needed to set up things for Pride when we did the first Pride in Owen Park. Even though they were old school conservative Republicans, not the new ones, faithful Presbyterians and in hindsight, given that I could have been born into a Baptist or some kind of evangelical kind of tradition, I'm really grateful because the Presbyterians didn't say anything homophobic. We didn't exist. They didn't acknowledge our existence, but that was more benign than certainly other options. I met a young man at Trinity recently who identified himself as a refugee from a Southern Baptist upbringing. Dennis Neill: When did you first kind of distinguish between being gay and being heterosexual or being homosexual? When did that first kind of come into your mind? Tom Neal: Puberty. I mean, puberty hit and I knew that, I'm like, okay. One of these things is not like the other and I'm like, the other dudes are like, hey, there's this girl who will meet you behind New Haven Methodist Church and you can have some fun. This is in junior high, mind you, and I'm like, I couldn't get out of the, I'll pass. I mean, I knew that I didn't want to do that, and I think that's pretty. Dennis Neill: Did you date at all in junior high? Tom Neal: Just the standard, ask a girl to go to a dance because your best buddy was going to a dance and, so you wanted to go with them and, you know. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Realizing this about yourself, that you were different, did that scare you? Tom Neal: No, but I think I was really lucky. Our mother was a woman of very, very strong character. She had endured, survived some really serious health challenges as a young woman and I think she just, I don't know, I think somehow we got imbued with that strength of character, , that I'm not the problem, y'all may have a problem, but I'm not the problem, who I am. And that's a gift from my parents that I cannot underestimate. So no, I basically… like I know that young LGBT plus people sometimes have suicidal thoughts, that kind of stuff, and I'm like, F that. I am fine. The problem is with you guys. Dennis Neill: So how did you explore your sexuality with your family, both your parents and your siblings? How did that evolve and have there been issues that have brought discomfort to either you or the family? 6 �Tom Neal: I don't think my older brothers talked about it. We didn't talk, but they're enough older. My oldest brother was born in 1949 and my next brother in 51, so they were off into the world while I was growing up. So we have a good relationship now, but we weren't, they were awake. They were off at college, one brother was in Korea. So less of an issue. My youngest brother is seven years younger, so he was a baby during some of this time. Tom Neal: Really my next younger brother, to whom I'm probably, I hate to pick favorites, closest, but we talk every day now that you can talk for free, and he somehow fell into more evangelical traditions, faith traditions. And so at times it was very difficult. I mean, for a while he worked for American Airlines and I think they still do, but particularly then they had non-revenue benefits where family members could fly for next to nothing. And at one point he was like, you're using these benefits to go do gay things and I, you can't, I forbid that you should do that because you're doing gay things. And I don't approve. And I'm like, I said, you don't tell your mother-in-law what she can go do with her non-revenue benefits, you know? So, I mean, because I was living in Dallas and I went to ILGA, which is the International Lesbian and Gay Association Conference in Stockholm. And the only reason I could do it was because I had basically an almost free ticket, though I did have some application fees and DGA, Dallas Gay Alliance, it was called then. I asked them to give me some funds to help with the trip and, so, and I... Dennis Neill: So, that is after you finished which level of education you were... Tom Neal: That was, that was after I finished up at Rice. No, that was probably after finishing both degrees, because I lived in Dallas in between the degrees, and then I lived in Dallas after the degrees, because I graduated from OU, had enough to go to work with Stan Grala, who's the G in GH2, and probably should have worked for Stan. We had a great working relationship. The H's, Mike and Kara Hall, went to work for him. Stan designed horse barns. He was an equestrian architect. Very different practice, right? But I wound up working for a firm here in Tulsa, and then I got an opportunity to work for RTKL, which is a very prestigious firm in Dallas, and I moved back to Dallas and worked for them. What was the question? Circle back. Dennis Neill: Kind of your activities in Dallas. Tom Neal: I just was involved in community stuff. Obviously kind of had the bug in. I had gotten involved in LGBT plus activism at OU, because we were trying to get a nondiscrimination policy for OU, which the university did not have, and they were not particularly willing. They were actually quite unwilling to add that on, and so we lobbied the Board of Trustees, Board of Regents. I went to a black alumni dinner once to talk to the one black regent, just to see, because it was the only opportunity to get face-to-face with her. Since this happened, OU's gotten there. I wish it got there a lot faster, much to my chagrin. I think Laura [Belmonte] was a big part of that, to be honest. I kind of found my voice there. I never really wanted, thought I would be an activist. So I'd gone there because I already had an undergraduate degree. My course load was lighter. My first year was, so I didn't have to do all the distributions. All I had to do was the architecture 7 �program. Well, the first year I got most of that out of the way, so my second year I'm like, and I ran for the Student Congress, and got elected, and again was just really agitating to try to get all this, and then when I came, after I finished up, I kind of continued that in the community, and that was in Dallas. I was involved with GLAAD, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, which at that time, it was not a single office national organization. It was a bunch of chapters around the country. There was a chapter in San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York, obviously D.C., maybe Atlanta, I don't know for sure, but one in Dallas, and got involved with that. And my dear friend of mine, CeCe Cox, who's from Bartlesville, who's been the head of the gay, the equivalent of OkEq in Dallas, was kind of my comrade-in-arms in that, and we kind of built GLAAD and went to organizing meetings. In the process of trying to create a national GLAAD organization, we had meetings all over the country to do that. Dennis Neill: How were you finding the fight at OU? Tom Neal: At OU? I am class of 89, and I went there in 87, so it would have been between 87 and 89. Dennis Neill: And did you have an organized gay or lesbian group on campus that was helping you? Tom Neal: Yeah, yeah, we did. Dennis Neill: Were you very involved in that? Tom Neal: I was one of the leaders of that at one point. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Let me ask you about that. Tom Neal: Yeah. Dennis Neill: You were working on a graduate degree in architecture at that time or another undergraduate… Tom Neal: So I actually took a second undergraduate degree, but in architecture, you can do a four-year degree, but then you have to have a two-year master's in order to have a qualifying degree to be professionally licensed. Or you can do a five-year degree, which qualifies you for professional licensing. So I went and spent two more years, combined with my other undergraduates, to get a B-Arch, which is a five-year degree. In hindsight, I wish I had gotten a master's, because later, I wound up teaching at TCC, and if I had had a master's, I could have continued teaching. But anyway, that's... Maty Bishop-Baldwin: So while you were there, you said there were no protections for LGBT people. Tom Neal: Correct. 8 �Mary Bishop-Baldwin: But yet, you were willing to put your face and your name out there and say, hey, I'm gay, and we need these protections. What gave you the strength and courage to do that when you knew that you could be expelled just for being gay? Tom Neal: Well, I don't think they were actually doing… I don't know that they would have done that. I guess they could have technically, but I don't think they would have because they'd have to, they'd lose way too much of the university. But two, I would go back to my blessed mother whose, courage in life, kind of informed, my, I don't know, maybe it's the Zodiac is somewhat esoteric, but, Leo, I mean, I'm like I'm right and they're wrong. Dennis Neill: Could you post posters about your meetings? Were you undercover… Tom Neal: No, we were not undercover and in fact I think we had student funding like any other student organization. Somebody else had won that battle before I got there and because they started, I was not there then. But every student organization needs a faculty sponsor, and our faculty sponsor was a groundbreaking African-American professor, Dr. Henderson- I can't remember his first name, not gay, not even remotely gay, but committed to the notion that people, all people, should be treated fairly, and as a black man understanding some of that struggle. Dr. Henderson agreed to be the faculty sponsor and, like I say he'd been that for some time. He didn't really do anything day to day. You know we had to have a signature, I think once a year and yeah, so you know there was another advantage. My blessed father paid for my tuition, so I wasn't dependent on scholarships. I had a certain amount of economic invulnerability. I went back to OU when I was 29, and at 29, hopefully you've got your act together a little bit better and you know I'm like… Dennis Neill: what was the name of the organization? Tom Neal: That's a good question, Dennis. I can't remember. I could probably Google it, it's probably out there with like everything else. Dennis Neill: So, being in an architectural program at OU, did you have any background on Bruce Goff and his role at OU? Do you want... about what you encountered at OU and then the subsequent history, if you know about how OU kind of redeemed Bruce Goff? Tom Neal: Well, it's really interesting because I wound up again my last year- I had a little extra time, so I was involved as a student representative of different things, like we had a lecture committee, and I was the student rep and this kind of stuff. And I remember having lunch. We had an Englishman who was one of our professors there and they brought a speaker- in no idea who that speaker was. I was invited to lunch at the faculty club or whatever, and we were having lunch with him and they were talking about Bruce Goff. But at that point he was like we don't talk about the fact that Bruce Goff was a gay man and that the university was hostile to him during some of that time, and I of course brought that up and I thought the English guy was going to kind of have a little fainting spell perhaps. But yeah, no, certainly, even then Bruce Goff has certainly been radically embraced by the university. Now wasn't as much then. They weren't, but 9 �they were proud of his work. They just didn't want to talk about the- you know the not so pretty history of how the university treated him. Dennis Neill: If you go into the architectural school at OU now, do you see evidence of Bruce Goff? Tom Neal: I would imagine, though I have not been back in some years. I haven't been in that building since I served on the Tulsa Preservation Commission for three years and we had a training session at OU and that's the last time I was there, but that was when Dewey Bartlett was mayor. So that gives you- I can't remember the date on that, but that's been seven or eight years at least, if not maybe longer. Dennis Neill: Where were you when you first learned about HIV-AIDS? Tom Neal: Oh, absolutely, I lived in Los Angeles, which is one of the epicenters. LA, New York, San Francisco were all hit hard and I had a couple of kind of best older, best friend, gay guys who had been my neighbors and they kind of adopted me. They were like my gay uncles, and they started. My friend Kerry got sick first and then wound up... it was the classic early, what are we talking? Nineteen, eighty-three, probably about eighty-three, because I graduated from Rice in eighty and lived a couple years in Dallas, went to California and Kerry and Phillip were partners. We lived in the same loft building in downtown Los Angeles before it was stylish to do so, by the way, it was right in between Little Tokyo, which was nice, and Skid Row, which was not so nice, and we were closer to Skid Row. But they were my neighbors there and then we also wound up living in an apartment building in mid-Wilshire, much nicer part of town. Kerry got sick, wound up in part of the big hospital, public hospital. It was east of downtown and in those days people got pneumonia, they died. It's that fast and nobody knew what the hell was going on. You know Kerry… digressing slightly, well, he was from Indiana, so he went home, Philip went with him, I flew back. In those days it was prior to 9-11, so you could like, I actually took a thing of sushi because he wanted sushi. So I carried sushi halfway across the country and then he couldn't eat it because he just wasn't feeling well. Those were kind of dire days. And I remember going to get my first HIV test, which at that time nobody in Los Angeles was doing it. The only place was the center in Long Beach. You drove 30 miles to Long Beach and then you waited for two weeks because it was not an instant test, and thanks be to God. You know I'm- the term had not been invented yet- but I realized that I'm probably demisexual, which means I kind of like to know people before I have sex with them. I'm not going to go into too much sex here, but so I think that probably might have…maybe didn't get infected because of that, because I'm like I just am not comfortable with this and so, but that was not the ethos at the time. Dennis Neill: I'd like to spend a little bit more time about your personal knowledge of HIV/AIDS, since it's shaped generations, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you first encountered it in LA and you've been in Dallas and Tulsa. Just talk a little bit more about your path in activism particularly related to HIV/AIDS. 10 �Tom Neal: I think to be honest, I focused more on civil rights issues because there were already a lot of people working on HIV issues, particularly when I wound up back in Tulsa after 93. TOHR had the testing program that later became HOPE. So those kind of were covered when I was involved in TOHR leadership. Of course we were, they were us and we were they and you know being supportive of the two programs. it's just, I don't know, it's just, I mean I'm a regular visitor here for the testing program. So I even brought my… I had a foster kid for a while and I brought my foster kid because he's like I need to get tested. And I said, and my foster kid was straight, very straight, extremely straight, and I said, Nathan, your risk factors are really, really low. I mean, I'm sure we can do this, but I don't see…What I didn't know, the other tests they do, along with the HIV test, is syphilis. Yeah, my foster kid tested positive for that. So we had a little conversation about safer sex as well as the concept of statutory rape, because I think the young lady with whom he'd been involved, who apparently was the initiator, I said it doesn't matter if she initiates it, if she's 14, you're going to prison. He was 17. So yeah, sorry, I have a little ADD, and so we, my conversations, are almost always meandering, so I don't know really how to add to that. It's always been kind of part of, I mean, I feel, on some level, I think any of us, you know gay men, but lesbians too, not necessarily for the same reason. We've all kind of been informed and scarred by that experience, because… Dennis Neill: Have you lost many acquaintances or friends to AIDS. Tom Neal: Some, probably would have been more if I'd spent more time in more exclusively gay circles. But, like I say, in Los Angeles I was going to architecture school. And the majority of the people I was around were heterosexual. So at least in that time their exposure and their risk factors were a lot lower. So enough, particularly Kerry and Philip. I mean I remember I kept up with Philip after Kerry died and Philip was from, he was from Massachusetts and went back there and I remember thinking I need to call, I need to call, I need to call see how he's doing. But I kept putting it off because I was really I was afraid that I would hear that he had died. And I finally called and I got his mother and he was, he was very, very Italian Catholic family, you know. So I mean, that was his Boston identity and we had a sad conversation, because she was like she- not her exact words, but it was like honey, you know. Now he's gone, you know. So anyway, yeah, I don't know. Dennis Neill: I should have asked you this earlier: design has been kind of your life. What was your stimulus that got you so interested in design work and was there any other career path that you considered other than architectural? Tom Neal: Well, I published a newspaper for eight years, so without any formal journalistic training other than the writing that I alluded to at Holland Hall, and then if you're in an art history program, basically art history is dealt with by writing about it, right? So I think I developed those but, and that I kind of more fell into might also have been kind of an outgrowth from the work with GLAAD, an awareness of how critical media is to our community towards representation. 11 �But the architecture stuff, I think it was always an interest. So my mother is from a little tiny town called Wewoka in east central Oklahoma and my grandfather had a barber shop in downtown Wewoka next to the movie theater. He'd always wanted to be a physician, but his father had what we now call Alzheimer's or dementia and wound up in the state. My great-grandfather would have been in the state hospital in Norman, because that's all they had, that's all they could do. Tom Neal: So he wound up being a barber because he had, like I don't know, half a dozen siblings and somebody had to help take care of them. So and my grandmother learned to be a beautician. They had the barber shop in front and the beautician shop in the back and in those days, you had magazines galore, right, because pre-Internet we didn't all look at our phones, so you had like the hunting magazines and the sports magazines in the barber shop in the back they had like House Beautiful, House and Garden and whatever those kind of things, and some of them would show one of the magazines would have plans, would have the floor plans of the houses, and I remember being you know little kid, I was fascinated. I would sit in the barber shop or in the beauty shop, depending, and look at the magazines and study the plans. The interest was there. I also think that if you think about left brain, right brain and wiring the way, I think I have a memory which also fits with an art history degree. I have a strong visual memory, much more so than other things, so like for love or for money, I can probably not remember the name of a song or song lyrics. That kind of information is like gone as soon as it's in my head it's gone, but visual stuff stays with me and, by way of example, years ago I was, I had worked for 10 years doing kitchen bath design for Home Depot while I kind of did my practice on the side. So I met a lot of people. It's a downtown store, very diverse, you know north side, south side, midtown, wherever- and I'd gone into Petty's- and God rest its soul right. So for something I didn't usually shop there- and there was an older, very distinguished couple and I said, oh, Tom, how nice to see you and I'm going… Usually I can remember faces but I'm like I have no idea who these people are, not a clue. You helped us with our kitchen, this, that and the other, and we still love it three or four years later. And they said: and that island. And I said, oh, the island. Oh, wait, a minute now did we do this, this? And this wasn't the island, kind of like this. I remembered the island. I could not remember who they were, but I could remember the visual, the design that we did for that. I think for better, for worse, that's where my brain wiring is. And I'm at the risk of being immodest, I'm pretty good at what I do because I think I'm working with my natural tendencies or skillset. Right. Dennis Neill: So you bring up your interest in writing and, excuse me, journalism. Let's talk a little bit more about your early introduction into publication and writing. And I do recall, right, Tom, that you were a writer for the Parachute. And I believe that was Chuck Breckridge. Tom Neal: Who's still in town. Yes. Reverend Chuck. Good. That'll be wonderful. Dennis Neill: So just talk us through, kind of chronologically, your interest in journalism, how you got involved and how the new world has impacted journalism and why you decided to stop publishing. 12 �Tom Neal: So I came back to Tulsa, I, at that point was, I mean, I had my little retail store that I wanted to do, but I also needed something else to make a little bit more money. And so Chuck was doing a newspaper, he was based in Wichita, but he was distributing the paper here. And he, I think, offered a job to sell advertising for him. So I took that with the understanding I would also write, I would write to him, I'd be the local writer. And I did that for him for a few months before I realized that I could do it myself and cut out the boss, which maybe is not very nice, but, and so that's when I started Tulsa Family News, title, definitely deliberately ironic. And but with, we were, I had an AP subscription, it was, the intention was to be within the boundaries of my skills, as good and as serious of a newspaper as we could do. And I did that, I think it was eight years. I later, the store closed because the lease ended. And I was also, I don't smoke. And being in a smoky bar till two o'clock in the morning, most of the nights of the week was just a little much. And I wound up taking a job at Home Depot and fell into the design position then. And I was just burning myself the candle at both ends, it was just too much to work full time, do the newspaper. And I finally, after eight years, just said, I’ve, I just, I can't do this. It was right on the edge of the transformation because of the Internet and that kind of thing. If you think about Dennis and Mary, when I came back to Tulsa, we were just beginning to have cell phones, because I remember the number I still had today is one that I got through the LGBT business group that, there was somebody offering cell phones at a discount to the group, and that was my first cell phone. And then personal computers were just coming in, well, had just started coming in when I was at OU in 1989, because they had the first very rudimentary CAD programs, Computer Aided Drafting. At the time I was doing this it met a need in the community, in my opinion, continue to fight battles, like trying to get Tulsa City County Public Library to let us be in the library, free distribution, which they offered without question or restriction to everybody until we ask, God bless Pat Woodrum. And then they changed the rules so that they didn't have to let us in. And I think that went on until I, let's see if I can remember his name, he was a County Commissioner at the time, and he's since, I think he lives mostly in Buena Vista, Colorado these days, but I got a hold of him and said, this would probably be a really good First Amendment lawsuit, and really embarrassing for the City County Library system that they are not allowing a publication in when their whole purpose is to promote publications and reading, and shortly after that the policy changed. Dennis Neill: To allow you back in? Tom Neal: Yeah. To allow us, yeah. Dennis Neill: Do you recall what time frame we're talking about, and how long it took to resolve? 13 �Tom Neal: I think I was doing the publication between about 94, 93, 94, and eight years later, so around 2000, so it was sometime in that period. Maybe his name is Bob, I could look it up, but yeah, yeah. You would recognize the name, yeah. Dennis Neill: And was it every two months, is that when… Tom Neal: Every month. Every month. Dennis Neill: And then who actually printed the publication? Tom Neal: Well, so that was another thing. I got turned down left and right by printers, by other people, and I finally happened to talk to Dave, I can't remember Dave's last name, more of those escaping names, but he was the publisher of the Claremore Daily News, and I drove up to Claremore, and they published it for me, and then I went back to Claremore, got it, and then I dragged my backside all over town distributing it, you know. So it was pretty much a one-person show, me, me, and me. Dennis Neill: But now, how was John Christjohn… Tom Neal: At the time, he and I were living together… Dennis Neill: As partners? Tom Neal: Yeah and we had met in Dallas and then he moved up here and we're still friends. Full disclosure, he is a tenant in one of my garage apartments. It's kind of hard to find a place to live when you have three or four dogs and no money. So not trying to throw him under the bus too much. But anyway, so he wrote for me because he was kind of part of it and sometimes, he helped with parts of it. I had a number of writers. My friend Merry Schepers, I think wrote, something about the handy lesbian or something. She did home improvement stuff. There was Mark Wright who's an attorney, Native American attorney who I think lives in DC now and he would do food reviews and honest God, the ladies who started Wild Fork, he wrote a horrible, horrible, mean review of them. And I'm like, I'm gonna publish it. Try not to censor my writers. And they were furious at me for years and did not believe me that I, they thought I'd written it. And I'm like, I'm not that much of a foodie and no, there is a person, I'm not gonna tell you his name because that's part of the deal, but I did not write it. And I think they may have forgiven me, but for about 10 years I'm pretty sure they didn't forgive me, so. Dennis Neill: How about Dyke Devine? Was she a column in your paper? You recall that? Tom Neal: Maybe. I don't remember. Dennis Neill: I think that might have been Anna Dodwell that wrote it. Tom Neal: Yeah, it might have been. Yeah, yeah, because Anna and I are still, I don't think she lives here now. Tom Neal: Yes, she does. 14 �Tom Neal: I know we, I think we're Facebook connected, but you know. Yeah, yeah. Dennis Neill: So looking over your eight years of publications, what do you consider your greatest achievement, like a storyline or investigative report? What is one of your proudest moments of being a publisher? Tom Neal: Two things. I think I did, early on, did an interview with Susan Savage, which, I mean, getting a major, to our city, public official to interview with an LGBT publication, I think that was kind of a nice little coup. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: She was mayor at the time. Tom Neal: She was mayor at the time. I kind of had to shame her into it, so, but we got there. And, and then I did an interview with Steve Largent, who was either running for Congress, no, I think he was running for Congress, but later was our congressman, first district congressman, with whom I had tremendous political, theological and philosophical differences, but he was always very, very civil. He was a very decent man, at least interacting with him as a person. I like those, those two things. I think just surviving for eight years is maybe an accomplishment. Speaker 3: What was the rest of the question? Tom Neal: There was something. Dennis Neill: That was really it. How about a low, where you really feel like... Tom Neal: The lowest low, and you might appreciate this, is when I misspelled Tahlequah in the headline above the fold. That chapped my backside. You needed a copy editor, didn't you? But it was me, me, me, me, and me. I was, I was, and it was like, it was in print. I had however many copies I had printed every month before I even realized. I'm like, oh, something about some community organizing in Tahlequah or something with Northeastern State. I don't remember that. All I remember is that I screwed it up with the spelling. That, that really, I mean, I'm sure there are other things. I think there may have been a story that they jumped and then disappeared. But, considering that that has happened in major, in like the Tulsa World and other publications, and they had a lot more people to help them than I did, maybe I'll cut myself some slack. Dennis Neill: So, Mary, you have some other questions around journalism. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Let's see, when you were writing for Chuck Breckenridge for his publication, and you thought, I can do this myself, how did it feel to go out on your own in competition with him, the man who had been your boss? Tom Neal: Well, we had not worked together for very long. I mean, it was probably only maybe three or four months. And again, I have tried over the years to make a point to be civil with people, even with whom I've had an argument in the past, or with whom I have lots of disagreements. I mean, God rest her and Joe's soul, but Nancy MacDonald and I did not see eye to eye on a whole lot of stuff, and I was very vocal about it, and I wrote about it at times, and pissed off…I think there are still gay men in this community for 15 �whom Nancy was a saint, and they're angry at me about it. But she was like another mother, or at least an aunt, and Joe and my father are the same generation, and he practiced at St. John's, he was an anesthesiologist as well. So, I mean, I guess my point is, I kind of strayed away from your original question, but my point is, we've got to be nice to each other. Even if we, I mean, I'm sure I pissed you [Dennis] off about something somewhere along the way, though you've always been so kind and gracious to me, you know. So, I'm sure there have been other people. Well, Tim and I have struggled, you know. God bless him, but even we, these days at least, I think are civil. Yes, sir? Dennis Neill: So, what was your competition during that period of time? Of course, the Gayly has continued to publish over this period of time, and just knowledge about other publications would be very helpful during your era, or really any of the time that you weren't even publishing, your interest in the other journalistic world reaching out to our community. Tom Neal: Really, other than the Parachute, there have been things before. Oklahoma City, I mean, the Gayly has always been kind of OKC-centric, you know. I mean, and it was, maybe they're doing better now, but at that time they really, they were distributed in Tulsa, but they didn't really cover Tulsa to a meaningful degree. I think Chuck got busy with other, I don't know that he continued, I don't remember how long he continued the Parachute after that. Next thing I know, he's here and he's working in a religious capacity rather than this. To be honest, Dennis, I don't think there was much. But again, about the time I was shutting down was about the time that everything, the Internet exploded, you didn't need a local news. When I started, you couldn't get this news any place else to any significant degree. I was going through AP specifically, Associated Press, specifically looking for stories of interest to the community. The Tulsa World was not covering LGBT plus stuff, and the local broadcast media, and of course I'm a print snob anyway, so, I think TV broadcast is kind of stupid news, but it has reach. Dennis Neill: So do you have any background on the Star or the Metro Star? I think they may have come after you. Tom Neal: I don't remember them much, to be honest. Dennis Neill: I guess there was some perspective, but also a publication around it. Tom Neal: Yeah, I just, again, since I don't really go out, I mean, and that was true even when I wasn't 68 years old. Dennis Neill: And, as a sign of the times, this is the month that the Gayly had to go all digital, they no longer do hard print. Tom Neal: I did not know that, wow. Dennis Neill: Yeah, Robin's been so loyal, continue that publication, but just financially realized that she could not continue to sustain a hard copy. 16 �Tom Neal: You don't do journalism for the money. It's like teaching a TCC, you don't do it for the money. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: I can verify that. Tom Neal: Yes, ma'am. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Adjunct? No, I meant about journalism. Tom Neal: Oh, yeah, about journalism, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dennis Neill: So, Tom, let's talk a little bit more about your role and knowledge and involvement with OHR, then TOHR, and then Oklahomans for Equality. So we first formed the organization in 1980. When was your first exposure to what was then OHR? Tom Neal: 1980? Probably about three years after that, and I think it had become TOHR at that point. Dennis Neill: 1985. Tom Neal: Okay. Maybe it was, yeah, maybe, yeah. I don't know. I do remember going down and going to the Aaronson Auditorium, and there was Doug Hartson, greeter par excellence, and, it was, there was always kind of a program, I've told the kids running this place they need to go back and do that some, they need to have periodic meetings and a program of some kind, but we'll see. And then, like I say, and then I was back at OU, so I was out of the picture, and I was in Dallas, and then I was back from Dallas, so... Dennis Neill: And you said in 84 was when you came back to Tulsa, is that right? Tom Neal: Yeah, I think, I think, yeah, that's why I wasn't around for OHR. I spent, maybe, I'm fuzzy with numbers, it's kind of like song lyrics and titles, I get, I have to have something to tie a memory to, but class of 80, Rice, two years in Dallas, I thought it was four years, but maybe three or four years in Los Angeles, and then back, and then working in Tulsa, probably for two or three years before I went to OU in 87. Somehow that math doesn't add up, so, maybe I was in one of those places less long than I remember, so. Dennis Neill: So you would have been dating my roommate, Mike Williams, and that would have been around 87 and 88. Tom Neal: Yeah, right before I went to OU, and that's when you and John first met, if memory serves me, and you were in that house over on Cincinnati or Boston, one of those places. Dennis Neill: Yeah, Boston Court. Tom Neal: Yeah, and I think I just signed a carport for you guys. Dennis Neill: Uh-huh, that's correct. Tom Neal: I forgot about that. 17 �Dennis Neill: So tell me a little bit about that time frame, so you were here for, I guess, a short period of time. Tom Neal: A couple years. Dennis Neill: Were you dating Mike while you were in Tulsa, or were you also... Tom Neal: No, I, we petered out, I don't know, I don't remember what happened, but yeah, I was dating him when I was in Tulsa. There's another guy with red hair, whose name I can't remember. That was when Kathleen, when I first went to work for her, she worked out of her house over by, well, kind of not far from your house, that same neighborhood. And then she went into this old red brick building over here off of, over on 3rd Street, it's kind of isolated by itself, Detroit, right, 4th and Detroit, right there, and she worked there, and then I went to OU. I'll be blunt, I don't think I've had great luck with relationships. Mr. Christjohn being one of the last ones, and it is flawed and toxic in many respects, but it's of many years' acquaintanceship. Dennis Neill: Then, 83, 84, you're back, I mean, sorry, 93, 94, you're back in Tulsa. Tom Neal: Right. Dennis Neill: You've got the store going on Silver Star, you've got your publication going, and then how did the TOHR come on your radar when you came back and your involvement, including being on the board and president? Tom Neal: Yeah, well, I got involved because I got involved in Pride, because I went to that first, I just was barely back in town and went to Pride, and it was in Mohawk Park, much to my chagrin. It was like hidden, and it was swampy, we'd had rains, not surprising, early summer in Tulsa, it was rainy, that's flood land, and it was just a big stinkin' mess. Dennis Neill: And do you recall, was TOHR actually the sponsor, or was that when the bars were still doing Pride? Tom Neal: I think it was the bars, it was the bars, because, and I had kind of an in with it, because I was, I had just started renting space from John and, was it John and Steve, who owned the Silver Star, and so I got involved in organizing it, and pushed to move it, and we moved it to Owen Park. Dennis Neill: So the next year? Tom Neal: The next year. Dennis Neill: So would that be, do you think, 94 or 95, or can you kind of? Tom Neal: Probably 94, probably 94. And that was one of the years that Mom and Dad lent me the truck, and that was, and we think, I think it was in Owen Park for a couple of years, maybe, and then other people took it over and it went different places, I mean, at one point, the parade went on Brookside, right? Dennis Neill: Yes. 18 �Tom Neal: On Riverside. Dennis Neill: The information we have, and you'll probably have a little more since you're the board president doing this, you might recall that Greg Gatewood got very involved and helped organize the 1998 Pride, which was down the sidewalks, because we didn't have a permit. Tom Neal: Right, I remember that, I covered that. Dennis Neill: And so I think Nancy and Greg worked together, and then in 99, Greg pursued the permit. So that was the first time we had it at what is now Dream Keepers, which was the Veterans Park, and we're not exactly sure when TOHR stepped back in to run Pride, but you probably were present at about around that time, I think. Tom Neal: So I think probably it's very possible that I might have kind of made that happen, that the bartenders, the bar crew kind of they were still there but kind of stepped back and I think they were only doing it because nobody else was. We also had a lot of pushback from people who were very uncomfortable moving out of the far reaches of Mohawk Park because Mohawk felt safe, and I had Owen Park, particularly at that time, a fairly neglected part of the city. it's a long way from Edison Street. It's the only major street through there. Y'all are still gonna be pretty safe and isolated in there, but it's got shade and it doesn't flood, you know. So I mean it was pretty prosaic in some place in this time, because it was definitely before Greg, Deborah Starnes and IDeborah was president at TOHR and we signed the lease for the building on Brookside that now that had a sushi place recently in the bottom, over at near Weber's Root Beer. You know it's kind of a 1940s building and owned by a local slumlord. We got lucky that we wrote into the contract that we had to make sure that the elevator was working, which apparently hadn't worked for ten years, and he had to drop some change to get it working. But we got the working elevator. I think we poured a tiny bit of concrete at the front step to make a semi-ramp to get people in and that was where you know there was, and Peterson- Claudette Peterson, was up there and one of my memories is when we were trying to get it ready to use, there was no big room in there. It had been a dental practice, is my memory, and so there are all these little rooms and we got in there and it was the bunch of guys from FUSO, which was an AfricanAmerican men's HIV outreach organization, and there's nothing like having four or five black queens with sledgehammers and me taking out the solid plaster and metal lath walls between these like five or six rooms to create the bigger room so we'd actually have a meeting space up there and fortunately they were not structural. I did check, I did check, but yeah, so we, got that all out and created that room and, I wound up putting a flagpole made out of just a galvanized metal pipe from Home Depot and clamps- because, again, we had no money, we had no budget- up on the top of the elevator shaft and we had this enormous five-by-eight flag that I bought through my store, and it kept getting stolen. People would come and take it, take it, but, yeah, but it was remarkable because suddenly, Tulsa, Oklahoma, with relatively little LGBT plus visibility, there's this big-ass gay pride flag flying over Brookside. It was really kind of lovely. Deborah Starnes and I actually personally put whatever limited funds we had at risk by signing that lease because we were personally on the hook for it. 19 �Dennis Neill: So what was the stimulus of moving from where we are at 39th and Harvard? And who actually did the research to find the space? Tom Neal: That space? I think of Deborah and I… Dennis Neill: On Brookside, did you look at several different locations? Tom Neal: I think so at one point. Now, Tim Gillian would be a good person to talk to about that, because I know he was involved in some of the researching, because I remember- and Nancy was involved as well, because at one point, we went and looked at the freaking Ambassador Hotel as a gay pride center. It was a ruin at the time before he had been renovated into this. obviously, top-flight hotel. It had been empty for at least 10 years, maybe 20 years. We, I remember looking at that. We looked at what is now the Circle Cinema. This is obscure, lost, almost lost, facts, isn't it? Dennis Neill: Yeah, we actually looked at it again in 2022. I mean 2002. Tom Neal: Yeah, Circle Cinema, part of the back roof or something was coming down on it. Somehow, and I don't know if Nancy got like Nancy was pushing, she was, she was a suburbanist at heart, so she was always pushing…Oh, we can find this shopping center out here, and I'm like we need to be more urban. Gay people use that term broadly and generically. 41st and Hudson is not an ideal location, though they made it work there, you know so. So, yeah, so that we, yeah, we did that and it was there for a while. And then there was Steve H, I don't remember. Took over Horn, yeah, came after me, and then Greg and Kerry. Then at that point I'd step back. Dennis Neill: And was it your store that was in the center? Because there's that store… Tom Neal: At a certain point I think I just gave or sold. I don't think I mostly gave the leftover merchandise I did to the center to use to sell for their benefit. Tom Neal: I don't think, because once I once- you know Steve and John, God bless himhad some dude out of Oklahoma City who thought he could- he also had a newspaper, very short-lived, and thought he could have a newspaper and have a store and still live in Oklahoma City, and so they basically said: eh, we're doubling your rent and I'm like this is not a viable project at double rent, it's barely viable at the current rent. Thanks, guys, no hard feelings. That's when I kind of shut it down, I think at one point I tried to do some sales out of one of the MCC churches, but it wasn't really…Tulsa's a challenge because there is no really gay community, physical, geographical gay community. Dennis Neill: During your period as president on the board we still have the testing clinic. I interviewed Jeremy Simmons a couple of months ago and he recalls that we did create the name Hope while it was at TOHR and all he can remember is it was kind of like a committee decision to come up with Hope. He couldn't really remember the individual that came up with that name, any recollection. 20 �Tom Neal: I don't know that. I was not part of those conversations. My recollection is they had decided and there were problems with some of the state funding- the state was being kind of homophobic is my recollection, but I don't put money on that oneand they- Jeremy in particular and others- really felt like they needed to separate from TOHR in order to continue to get the funding that they were getting from the state. And some of us were really opposed to that, just probably more because we were being cantankerous and like no, no change is scary, you know. They came in and did a really good reading of the bylaws and came in and did an emergency ambush meeting and basically just overrode the vote and separated themselves out, which probably in hindsight I guess that was the right thing to have done. Dennis Neill: Were you president at that point in time? Tom Neal: I think I might have been. Dennis Neill: And so, maybe is that when you left maybe Dee Beasley became president, or who was your vice president. Do you recall? Tom Neal: Um, no, I do not recall, but Steve Horn succeeded me. Directly after me was Steve Horn, and then, directly after him, he got a job in Dallas or someplace out of town, and then it was Greg. The only person I can think… Dennis Neill: I think maybe Dee after… Tom Neal: I don’t remember, I don’t… Dennis Neill: Dee was only president for about three months Tom Neal: I don't know when that was. The only person I would mention because he was a stalwart. John Stanley was on my board. He wasn't vice president; he was just a great trooper who would do whatever he could to help and he passed. Dennis Neill: Fortunately, we do have an interview with him. Morgan [Allen], I think around 2002. So we have his transcript on our website. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: In 2002?? Dennis Neill: No, I’m sorry, in 22. Yeah, yeah, 2022. Tom Neal: I knew what you meant. No, well, and Morgan sang a really plaintive appellation, a cappella song, at his memorial service here. Yeah, it's just achingly beautiful, and I know her from Trinity Choir. She's in the choir, I'm not, and I asked her if she would do it and it was really kind. Dennis Neill: So, Tom, coming back to the period in the 1990s when you were acting with the TOHR, do you remember when you first got involved with the organization and what kind of caused you to be so interested in taking action and a leadership role in the organization? 21 �Tom Neal: I think I more fell into it than anything else. There was maybe a vacuum. You know somebody needed to do it and nobody else seemed to be stepping up again, coming back and doing Pride literally within a week, a couple of weeks, of having returned to the city, like end of May and coming in June, and pride was in June still then. And then the next year, and you know just the realization this could be done better. And so next year, I kind of did that, I think, a couple years, and then, like I say, Debra Starnes and I got along pretty well and she ran for president and then I think she had something that she had to step down and I was vice president and so became president. I don't remember if I got reelected in my own right or not, if I just finished out her term, I just don't remember at this point. But proud of the fact that though we did not own it, but for the first time in Tulsa's history there was a physical LGBT plus center for the community Dennis Neill: Speaking of that, Greg recalls, Greg Gatewood recalls when you first put the signage up and Greg mentioned that, he said: if we put that sign up, I know there's going to be a car wreck on Brookside by people eyeing that sign and he said that day we put it up, sure enough there was a fender bender right in front of the building because somebody was looking at the sign and not paying attention. So do you recall some of those early days of the center, some of the vandalism? Tom Neal: I know we had a little bit of vandalism. I don't remember a lot of details, I think maybe somebody broke the front door one time, Dennis Neill: The glass twice. Tom Neal: Was it twice? Maybe I'm a little bit of a Pollyanna. I try to see the positive. So I maybe, I just don't remember. I mainly remember the flag being stolen because I personally was up there on the roof putting it back up and buying another one and so forth. But just in general, the only other thing I can really remember distinctly is when there was an event for Chaz Bono. You know Cher's son these days. At the time I think she still identified as a woman and I remember taking pictures of Chaz and Nancy McDonald talking in that hallway, in that great hall or small great hall that we created. Dennis Neill: I think she was here, wasn't she for a fundraiser? I believe we had it at the downtown Doubletree. I can't remember if it was for TOHR or if it was for PFLAG. Tom Neal: Could have been either, could have been either. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dennis Neill: And were you involved with PFLAG through these years? Tom Neal: Certainly, when I was doing the newspaper, I was very supportive of PFLAG and I think I would assume that I probably donated advertising to them, certainly covered events that they had them. I seem to recall that they were often meeting at Fellowship Congregational there on Harvard and somewhere along the way became friends with the late Reverend Russell Bennett, great, great hero of mine, again kind of taking the stand back in the day when very few people were. I mean in those days, if you remember, again, before we started interviewing, we were talking about NCCJ [National Conference for Christians and Jews] and sometimes not always having support from parts of the community from whom you might have expected to get it, and I remember 22 �that Russell was out there very, very supportive, even at times when, for example, All Souls was not. They were just kind of ducking the issue, which is ironic because they were very welcoming of LGBT people as individuals, but they were not putting any of their credibility as a congregation on the line at the time, or at least that was my perception of things. Obviously not where they are today. You know so, but at that time, you know also, you know my parish Trinity was supportive of individuals, but not as out there. That whole denomination has made progress. Likewise, you know the Methodists and the Presbyterians. Dennis Neill: And was this about the time the Say No to Hate Coalition formed, or was that after your time? Do you think? Tom Neal: I think after. Again, I'm not the best person with dates. Dennis Neill: Yeah, I think it might have been after, because I know at one time I was fairly involved with it. But then Laura was very, very involved. I think she chaired it for a while. That was probably when she was president in 2004 - 2007, time frame. So talk a little bit about some of your highs and lows while you were so involved with TOHR in those early 90s. Tom Neal: I think I kind of feel like I've covered those. I mean, really. Dennis Neill: Were you having monthly meetings then? Y Tom Neal: Yeah, I think so. I think so. Dennis Neill: At that center? Tom Neal: I think so, I think so at the center, yeah. Not enormously attended, but I haven't seen enormous attendance of anything in the community since maybe the really early days at Aaronson, when it was literally almost the only game in town. So, other than I guess the bars that were all over the place. Certainly with the Internet, with people meeting each other electronically these days, I mean, there's what, maybe three bars left now, and I don't go to bars anyway. It was already a somewhat scattered community compared to maybe Dallas or Houston, where you had, a physical center to the places. And I think with the changes in media, it's even more scattered. Dennis Neill: So are you comfortable being called an activist? Tom Neal: Yeah, sure. I think it's a worthy title. I don't think these days I would make that claim anymore. I've stepped back, I’ve really focused on my, my work, my design practice. I don't remember if I mentioned to you, but I'm taking a class at TU, which I love being on campus. It's, they call it lifelong learning. It's not for credit. I call it classes for old people. It's really good because since I work out of my home and my work companions are a dog and three cats, it's nice to interact with like… Dennis Neill: What are you taking at TU? 23 �Tom Neal: I am taking Spanish. I'm just finishing my fourth semester there, motivated, prompted by a trip to Spain with one of my nephews. And I had been using Duolingo to try to learn some Spanish. And I came back from that trip feeling like I needed more formal instruction. And originally thought I'd try to take something at TCC. I had taught adjunct there for nine semesters, but they didn't have anything that wasn't online. And I wanted an in-person class. And then I live literally seven minutes by bicycle from TU. I'm like, I live across from a major university. Let me see what they have to offer. And I wound up, and it was very interesting as this long-haired senior citizen walking into a classroom full of mostly freshmen, 18- and 19-year-olds, whose eyes are getting big. It's like, who is this old guy in the class? And I'm looking like, God, they look like they're 14. It's been a really good experience. And my Spanish is progressing. Dennis Neill: Cool. So at TCC, what were you teaching? Tom Neal: I taught both art appreciation and humanities one. Dennis Neill: Did you feel welcome as an adjunct professor at TCC? Tom Neal: Yes, certainly. No issues because I was gay. Well, adjuncts are overworked and underappreciated, generally speaking. Every, probably every place in the nation, but it was a good experience. I stumbled into it. It was actually a random conversation I was having with another person, closer to my age, in the men's locker room, because I used to work for 10 years, maybe, well, maybe it's 20 years. Many years I worked out at the TCC Fitness Center because it was so close to Home Depot where I was working. And I had a conversation with a guy named Ralph saying, my undergrads in art history. I'd love to teach someday. And he said, hmm, my wife's in charge of making those assignments. I said, oh, well, tell her I would be interested. And a couple months later, I get a call at 4.45 PM on a Friday saying, we really, somebody's dropped out. And could you teach this class starting on Tuesday at 10 a.m.? Indeed, I can, but I had never seen the textbook. I hadn't seen a syllabus. I was cramming on Monday to start teaching on Tuesday, but I had a good time. The pay is crap, but I very much, and I wound up teaching initially, mostly an art appreciation class for a program they called Accelerate, where TCC took its concurrent enrollment classes out to public high schools. Students in Tulsa can take a class at TCC. Concurrent enrollment sometimes means they take it on campus. But in this case, particularly because not every student is mobile, we wound up…I wound up teaching at Tulsa Central, Hale, East Central, and then Webster and Edison. Those last two more than any other, repeated times. And it was great. I loved, I had the best and the brightest. For example, East Central is a pretty rough school. It looks like a prison, and it had high security when you walk in. But the kids I was working with were brilliant. And it was such a good experience. And then, again, Humanities I on campus was not bad. I liked that as well. That was at Metro Campus. It hasn't happened lately, but for a few years I would be randomly going around Tulsa, and somebody would say, hey, did you teach Humanities at TCC? I said, yeah. And mostly people said, I took your class. I loved your class. It made you feel really good. 24 �Dennis Neill: So, as an activist, what do you consider kind of your crown achievement? Would you say whether it's through the newspaper or your active involvement in organizations? What really gives you comfort about the view you took about being an activist in the community? Tom Neal: I think it's not any single thing, Dennis. I think it is a general pushing, expanding the envelope, pushing things forward, making it a little better than it was before. The process at OU that I worked on towards getting a nondiscrimination policy, we didn't get it, but somebody did after us. But I think the work that we did helped move us in that direction. Clearly, I think that the fact that we're sitting in this wonderful building today has its origins in the thinking that people like Nancy and Greg and... Dennis Neill: Okay. And you were talking a little bit about your activism and you feeling like it's not just one event, but you want to expand it a little bit more? Tom Neal: So, I think, I don't know whether we chopped this off or not, but I was saying that, here we are in this beautiful, wonderful building. And I think, again, back to the notion that maybe it's not any single thing that I accomplished, but being part of the process of moving us forward as a community, that, the origins of this building, to some degree, are in the building that Deborah and I signed the lease for over on Brookside. In the thinking, Nancy McDonald was very involved, Greg Gatewood…each of us working to the recognition that we need a physical place to anchor the community, particularly in a community that is kind of scattered, to all parts of the city. And I think I helped advance that. I think, maybe like before we started the interview, we were talking about our interaction with the Jewish community and maybe, helping people there to be more aware of, sometimes the intersection between LGBT issues and Jewish issues, particularly in terms of our shared history around, living through the Nazi regime. not identical experiences, obviously, but some overlap there. Part of that process…I know you can relate to this, one step forward and two steps back, or maybe it's two steps forward and one step back. When you and I first met, there were really hopes that the city of Tulsa was then, in 1980-something, going to add a non-discrimination policy. And I think you guys are really close. There was a little bit of a backlash, you know? Dennis Neill: But do you feel like there's been some backsliding over these recent years? And what would you attribute that to? And what would you tell the current generations? How can we move forward? But I'm assuming you might feel like we're backsliding in progress. What are your thoughts? Tom Neal: Well, yeah, I don't think we can take anything for granted. And I think again, as a student of history, if you look at Weimar, Germany, it was a good place for queer people in the 1920s, and then only to be followed by... I think, again, part of that shared experience or similar experience of the Jewish communities around the world and of LGBT communities is this kind of, we're always looking over our shoulders because, particularly with the current administration, could things turn south, could things go bad really quickly. I think I live with that as a little bit of a fear. I just read that the Texas 25 �Tech University system has now basically banned- it's destroyed- the women's studies, the LGBT studies, sexuality studies. You can't even write or talk about these issues. I have family who are alums, and so I put on my Facebook like, hmm, reposted, shared the story but then said: maybe we should call this fascist Tech, not Texas Tech, though Texas and fascism may be pretty good overlap these days. So, yes, are we backsliding? I think our fears are worse than the actuality. But could we backslide? I think that's real. What would I say to young people? Don't blow off your seniors completely. Some of us have some experience. You don't have to freaking, reinvent everything every time or assume that everybody who's you know older than you is an idiot and doesn't know anything, because sometimes that's how it feels. I was a little perturbed because recently this organization had a weekend seminar for rural organizing, I think, and I looked over it and it was kind of almost pro forma, by the book inclusive. We had one of these and one of these and one of these I mean in terms of racial and ethnic diversity and so forth, except for there was not a single old person in the mix. They were all Morgan's age and younger and I'm kind of like some of us might have something to contribute. Some of us have done some of this before, and I think you know again, maybe kind of one of my pet peeves- and we see it a fair amount in the, in the gay part of the LGBT community, is ageism. You know just, and- and I've been a little outspoken, calling people I say, that's kind of, that's kind of …So I think that would be kind of my, maybe the message, the answer to the question is: you know that inclusiveness is not just about, race and ethnicity or gender. You know that that many people have something to contribute. I don't know, probably if I keep talking, I'm going to say the same thing over in three different ways. Dennis Neill: Anything we haven't covered over your life to date and your reflections on what's been accomplished and what needs to be accomplished or any other comments you want to make. Tom Neal: Oh well, thank you for doing this, it's fun. It's kind of makes me remember some things that I hadn't really thought about for a while. You know I'm usually focused on work deadlines and Spanish exams and walking my dog. I'm planning my next trip because I really enjoy traveling. Dennis Neill: Where's that? Tom Neal: Next trips? This summer's trips, I think I'm going to go to Little Rock just for a long weekend, just because I've never really spent any time there. And there's the Clinton Library. Their art museum has been recently revamped, and I like to visit Episcopal Parishes when I travel, and this is going to sound so church nerdy, but they have Christ Church and the Cathedral, two different congregations within blocks of each other, and I can actually go to one service at 8 or 8:30, and the other one at 10:30, which is a lot of church. Dennis Neill: Both Episcopalian? 26 �Tom Neal: One's the Cathedral, one's just, I guess, the local church, but they're both historic because Little Rock, Arkansas is older than we are as a state. I'll probably go see my brother and go to the beach with my nephew that I traveled with in North Carolina. I'm kind of avoiding overseas travel because of you know all the unrest right now. But my nephew, with whom I travel a fair amount, he said, I want to get one last trip in August before, hopefully, I take a class at TU in the fall. And he said: well, what about Mexico City? I'm like I've been really wanting to go to Mexico City because I've never been, fits in with studying Spanish, amazing art and museums and history, and I like to mountain bike, and I even think there's mountain biking close to the city. So hopefully that'll be, that'll be that, and then next winter go skiing because that's my other thing. Dennis Neill: Tom, I really appreciate your time, your dedication to the community and everything that you've done for this organization and for the great history you've left us with the Tulsa Family News. Thank you very much. Tom Neal: Thank you, Dennis. 27 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Tom Neal Interview Subject The topic of the resource Tom Neal Oral History Project Interview from April 30, 2026 Description An account of the resource In this in-depth interview, Tom Neal shares his life journey, from growing up in Oklahoma to becoming a community activist and publisher. He discusses his experiences with LGBTQ+ advocacy, the evolution of Tulsa's community spaces, and his reflections on social progress and challenges. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tom Neal, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 30, 2026 activism AIDS/HIV Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill Dennis R. Neill Equality Center Equality Center Gay Rights HIV/AIDs interview journalism Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library OkEq Equality Center OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Rainbow Library Tom Neal transcript Tulsa Family News video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/c9d67df35090fb846d82e38728243423.jpeg 3f7500dd0ec1f26bfe646192d40da5e3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Collection] Oklahoma LGBT+ History Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br /><br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Veteran's Wall