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              <text>Neff Brewing Needs You!&#13;
Support The Mural Repainting&#13;
&#13;
Neff brewing, A New Era of Fine Fermentations &#13;
Located at 321 S. Frankfort (4th &amp; Frankfort)&#13;
&#13;
NEFF Brewing is donating 5% of all taproom sales this weekend to the Equality Center! Plus, 5% of all Raspberry Pride beer sales for the rest of the year!</text>
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              <text>&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;TOHR GLBT History Project&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Interviewer’s Release Form &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;TO BE COMPLETED BY INTERVIEWERS, RECORDING OPERATORS, AND PHOTOGRAPHERS&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Version Dated May 3, 2003&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I, ________________________________________ , am a participant in the Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (“TOHR”) GLBT History Project (the “Project”).  I understand that one of the purposes of the Project is to collect audio- and video-recorded oral histories of individuals concerning the GLBT history in the Tulsa area as well as selected related documentary materials such as photographs and manuscripts that may be deposited in the permanent collections of the Project. The deposited documentary materials will serve as a record of the interviewee’s experiences; and may be used for scholarly and educational purposes. I understand that the Project plans to retain the product of my participation as part of its permanent collection and that the materials may be used for exhibition, publication, presentation on the World Wide Web and successor technologies, and for promotion of TOHR and its activities in any medium.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I hereby grant to TOHR ownership of the physical property delivered to the Project and the right to use the property that is the product of my participation (for example, my interview, performance, photographs, and written materials) as stated above&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I also grant to TOHR my absolute and irrevocable consent for any photograph(s) provided by me or taken of me in the course of my participation in the Project to be used, published, and copied by TOHR and its assignees in any medium.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I agree that TOHR may use my name, video or photographic image or likeness, statements, performance, and voice reproduction, or other sound effects without further approval on my part.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I release TOHR, and its assignees and designees, from any and all claims and demands arising out of or in connection with the use of such recordings, documents, and artifacts, including but not limited to, any claims for defamation, invasion of privacy, or right of publicity.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;ACCEPTED AND AGREED&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Signature ________________________________________________________ Date______________&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Printed Name&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;_________________________________________&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Address ____________________________________________________________________________&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;City __________________________________ State ______ ZIP ______________ -&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;____________ month/day/year&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Telephone ( ________ ) -____________________&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Relationship to Interviewee, if any: __________________________________________________________&lt;/p&gt;</text>
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              <text>&lt;h1&gt;INTERVIEW QUESTIONS – TULSA GLBT HISTORY PROJECT&lt;/h1&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Revised September 11, 2005&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt; &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Basic Biography&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt; &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Where/when were you born?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What is your ethnic background?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Family background? Education?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;How long have you lived in Tulsa? What brought you here?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Occupations? Out at work?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Marriage? Children?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Long-term GLBT relationships?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Sexual Identity&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Would you classify yourself as homosexual, bisexual, or heterosexual for most of your adult life?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If homosexual/bisexual, how long have you been “out”?   When did you have your first homosexual experience?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What was your first visit to a gay-related place or event like? What did you expect?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Did your sexual preference create problems for you or between you and your family?   Employment issues?   Neighborhood issues?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Did/do you have a strong network of gay friends and/or acquaintances?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;How did these relationships develop?   When/how did you realize that there were others that shared your sexual preference?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;How visible were you and your friends in the community?   Did you ever encounter prejudice on the part of the police, government officials, etc.?   What kind of relationships did you and your fiends have with the police, religious authorities, district attorneys, etc.?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What were the limits of “acceptable” public behavior and how were the norms enforced?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Community &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;How did one know if somebody was homosexual in the 1920s/1930s/1940s/1950s in Tulsa?  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Were there any distinctive attitudes, fashions, language, or occupations that seemed to resonate with your homosexual friends than other groups?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Social taboos? No-nos?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Ways of finding each other?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;How did you keep in touch with current events relating to your homosexuality?  Any underground newspapers or newsletters?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Where did you and your friends hang out?   Any particular establishments, neighborhoods, parks, homes, or other places that were popular?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;“Rules” for how to act around GLBT people, around straight people? In public? Private?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Role models and/or inspirations within the community? Famous people? Cultural icons?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Stories from elders – did you recall stories you heard from older GLBT people about their experiences?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Did elders give you any advice?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What about bars and honkey-tonks?   Any of them exclusively cater to gay/bisexual men/women?   If so, where were they located and what were they called?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Were there ever any galas, socials, or “drag balls” in the Tulsa area that you heard about or attended?  Explain…&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Any pictures or memorabilia you might like to share?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What impact did events like WWI, WWII, the Great Depression, or the tumultuous 1950s have on your lifestyle, friendships, socializing patterns, etc.   Any discernible turning points in the acceptance/mortification of homosexuality that you can remember?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;ol&gt;
&lt;li&gt;What was your military experience like? Stats?&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;Were you “out”? Others?&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;/ol&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Were you or anyone you knew ever involuntarily committed because of your sexuality?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Substance abuse?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Describe any distinctive examples of prejudice or violence you encountered in Tulsa that stemmed from your sexual preference?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Terms – what did you call yourselves? Gay? Queer? Butch/Femme?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Humor – what things made you laugh? GLBT-specific humor? Pranks? In-jokes?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Were butch-femme roles pervasive? Personal experiences? When/what?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;“Passing” by butch women? Violence? How strict were roles adhered to, enforced?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Interactions between gay men and women? Positive?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Was Tulsa any less tolerant of homosexuality than other places you lived/visited?  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Was it easier being gay then than it is now?   Explain…&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Race/Ethnicity&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Personal background? Impact?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Recollections of white/black interaction within GLBT community?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Segregation?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;How do you account for white/black split in GLBT community now?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Black GLBT life? Memories to share? Contacts?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Ethnic/Race-specific bars, organizations?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Interracial relationships? Yours? Others’? Attitudes toward?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Your or other GLBT people’s involvement in the civil rights movement?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Racial prejudice within GLBT community?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Religion/Spirituality&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What is your religious background? Did it affect your attitude toward your sexual identity? If so, how?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Changes in your religious beliefs after coming out? If so, why? What?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Membership in any GLBT religious organizations, churches? Experiences?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Sex&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Let’s talk about sex---where did gay/bisexual men in Tulsa go if they wanted to have a sexual experience?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Was it easy to have a sexual encounter in Tulsa?   Were the police or community groups ever problematic in allowing these to occur?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What are some of the most notorious or memorable sexual encounters you have personally had in Tulsa?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Slang?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Monogamy? Casual sex?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;AIDS? When did you first learn? Alter your behavior? Community’s response? Personal stories?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Was there ever any homosexual-heterosexual contact of which you remember?   How were the “straight” men viewed by the community?   Any prejudice or negative ramifications?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Impersonation&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What do you know about the history of female impersonation in Tulsa?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;When did you first dress in drag?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What led you to do this?   Anybody “lead” you to it, or did it just occur naturally?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Where would one go in the 1940s/1950s/1960s to do shows?   Any notorious drag bars/clubs?   Private parties?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Were they high profile affairs?   High profile people?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Did drag assume a large role in the gay community---was it a central aspect of socialization, a humorous escapade, a means to make a living?   Explain.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Leather/S/M&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt; &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Experiences? Events? Bars?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Bars &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;How many bars have you owned?  Names, dates, etc.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Were they always “gay,” or did you cultivate mixed crowds?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Lucrative business?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Did you face a lot of community pressure, police pressure, familial pressure in regard to starting/running a bar?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Which bars did you attend? Police harassment? Atmosphere?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Activism&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What were the political values you grew up with?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Have they changed since then? How and why?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Active in social movements? Civil Rights? Anti-war? Women’s?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Were you ever politically active with GLBT issues? If so, what groups? Activities? Members?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Summing up&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Other topics you want to cover?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt; &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Significant changes? Advice to others?&lt;/p&gt;</text>
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              <text>&lt;p&gt;#__-____&lt;br /&gt;City ______________________________________&lt;br /&gt;State, County _______________________________&lt;br /&gt;Date ______________________________________&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;h3&gt;Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights&lt;/h3&gt;
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&lt;li&gt;I hereby agree to participate in an interview in connection with the oral history project known as _____________________________________. I understand that I will be asked about _____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________________________.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;The interview will be videotaped and/or audio-taped. In the interview I may be identified by name, subject to my consent. I may also be identified by name in any transcript (whether verbatim or edited) of such interview, subject to my consent. If I choose to remain anonymous, I know that the tape(s) of my interview will be closed to use, and my name will not appear in the transcript or reference to any material contained in the interview. I know that in the case of choosing to remain anonymous, my interview will only be identified by an internal GLBT History Project tracking number.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;I understand that the interview will take approximately _____ hours and that I can withdraw from the project without prejudice prior to the execution and delivery of a deed of gift, a form of which is attached hereto. In the event that I withdraw from the interview, any tape made of the interview will be either given to me or destroyed, and no transcript will be made of the interview. I understand that a photograph of me will be taken or borrowed for duplication, and that if I withdraw from the project, the photograph will be given to me.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;Subject to the provisions of paragraph five below, I understand that, upon completion of the interview, the tape and content of the interview belong to Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, and that the information in the interview can be used by Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights in any manner it will determine, subject only to the limitations listed below.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights agrees that: (i) it will not use or exercise any of its rights to the information in the interview prior to the signing of the deed of gift; (ii) the deed of gift will be submitted to me for my signature at completion of the interview; and (iii) restrictions on the use of the interview can be placed in the deed of gift and will be accepted as amending Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Right's rights to the content of the interview. I understand that I have the right to review the tape or transcript of the interview before I sign the deed of gift.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;Any restrictions as to use of portions of the interview indicated by me will be edited out of the final copy of the transcript.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;I understand that at the conclusion of this project and upon signing the deed of gift, the tape, photograph, and one copy of the transcript will be kept in the possession of Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights and its Archive.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;If I have questions about the research project or procedures, I know I can contact _________________________________ at the GLBT History Project, TOHR, P.O. Box 2687, Tulsa, OK 74101, (918) 743-4297 or via e-mail at history@tohr.org.&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;/ol&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If I feel I have not been treated according to the descriptions in this form, or that my rights as a participant in research have been violated during the course of this project, I know I can contact the President of the Board of Directors of Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, P.O. Box 2687, Tulsa, OK 74101, (918) 743-4297 or by e-mail at bortolani@tohr.org.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;____ I agree to be identified by name in any transcript or reference to any information contained in this interview.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;____ I wish to remain anonymous in any transcript or reference to any information contained in this interview. I wish to have the tape(s) containing my interview closed to use. I wish to have my transcript only identified by an internal GLBT History Project  tracking number.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;____ I wish to have the following limitations placed on the use of my interview:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Interviewer signature_____________________________________&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Interviewee signature_____________________________________&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Address _____________________________________&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;  _____________________________________&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;  _____________________________________&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Phone number _____________________________________&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Consent Date __/__/__&lt;/p&gt;</text>
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&lt;p&gt;(a) I, ____________________________, hereby give to Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights for scholarly, educational and general use the recordings of interview(s) conducted with me on _______________, and I grant to Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights all of the rights I possess in those recordings, including all intellectual property rights.&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;p&gt;I understand that Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights grants me a nonexclusive license to make and to authorize others to make any use of the content of those recordings, and that Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights will, at my request, make available a copy of those recordings for such use.&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;p&gt;(c) The foregoing gift and grant of rights is subject to the following restrictions:&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;p&gt;Accepted by:&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;p&gt;________________________________________ Date __________________&lt;br /&gt;Interviewer, Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights&lt;/p&gt;
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&lt;p&gt;Vernon Leon Jones, 88, of Tulsa, Oklahoma, left this earthly plane to be with his late partner Phil Wiley, on February 5&lt;sup&gt;th&lt;/sup&gt;, 2024.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;He was born in Oklahoma, on May 3&lt;sup&gt;rd&lt;/sup&gt;, 1935. As a gay man, born and raised here, Vernon’s chosen family is vast. He is survived by Hayward Jones, Nekesha Jones, JaKobe Jones, Sue Davis, Fred Hilliard, Arlowe Clementine, Mason Thomas, Rey Thomas, and so many other individuals that claimed Vernon as their friend, family, and elder.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Vernon was an active learner, even in his later years. He was always working to understand the world around him and was eternally hopeful for a better world. He was a strong advocate for marginalized peoples and was particularly committed to Queer and Black Liberation.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Vernon was a clear Taurus. He was intelligent, dependable, logical, honest, and generous. Vernon spent most of his life focused on making his community better. He was a holder of receipts. A maker of spreadsheets. A true community historian and archivist.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Vernon was dedicated to making people safer, both in his career in emergency management and his activist work in the fight against AIDS. He was not a stranger to controversy and was unrelenting in speaking his truth and the truth of the people he loved.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In the years before his death, Vernon worked hard to ensure that the legacy of LGBTQ activism in Tulsa was properly recorded and preserved for current and future generations. His substantial archive is now housed in Oklahoma State University’s Archives. This collection will be witnessed by researchers and community members for years to come.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Vernon was a connector. He worked hard to bring people together and was always willing to give someone support that needed it. Even in his death, he is connecting individuals over their shared love and respect for him and his life.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Vernon fought hard for his community and the legacy of his late partner Phil Wiley. Anyone who knew Vernon was graced with stories of Phil’s life and legacy as well as their love for one another.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In lieu of flowers, we ask that you remember Vernon by learning something new, taking a stand on social issues that are important to you, and keeping his life and legacy alive through storytelling.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Vernon’s memorial service will take place March 1&lt;sup&gt;st&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;span&gt; &lt;/span&gt;at 11 AM at Butler-Stumpff &amp;amp; Dyer Funeral Home (&lt;a href="https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&amp;amp;&amp;amp;p=bfe3dfa29743f8d2JmltdHM9MTcwODY0NjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0xYTQ3OGQzZC1hYmNmLTYxMWUtMDhjNC05ZjI0YWFiYTYwNDUmaW5zaWQ9NTc0Nw&amp;amp;ptn=3&amp;amp;ver=2&amp;amp;hsh=3&amp;amp;fclid=1a478d3d-abcf-611e-08c4-9f24aaba6045&amp;amp;u=a1L21hcHM_Jm1lcGk9MTIzfn5Vbmtub3dufkFkZHJlc3NfTGluayZ0eT0xOCZxPUJ1dGxlci1TdHVtcGZmJTIwJTI2JTIwRHllciUyMEZ1bmVyYWwlMjBIb21lJTIwJTI2JTIwQ3JlbWF0b3J5JnNzPXlwaWQuWU43MDl4MTIzMDIxMzUmcHBvaXM9MzYuMTU2OTEzNzU3MzI0MjJfLTk1Ljk2MTc5OTYyMTU4MjAzX0J1dGxlci1TdHVtcGZmJTIwJTI2JTIwRHllciUyMEZ1bmVyYWwlMjBIb21lJTIwJTI2JTIwQ3JlbWF0b3J5X1lONzA5eDEyMzAyMTM1fiZjcD0zNi4xNTY5MTR-LTk1Ljk2MTgmdj0yJnNWPTEmRk9STT1NUFNSUEw&amp;amp;ntb=1"&gt;2103 E 3rd St, Tulsa, OK 74104&lt;/a&gt;).&lt;/p&gt;</text>
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                    <text>1/8/26, 1:44 PM

Vernon Leon Jones - Butler-Stumpff &amp; Dyer Funeral Home &amp; Crematory

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Vernon Leon Jones
May 03, 1935 - February 05, 2024

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Vernon Leon Jones - Butler-Stumpff &amp; Dyer Funeral Home &amp; Crematory

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Obituary
Vernon Leon Jones, 88, of Tulsa, Oklahoma, left this earthly plane to be with his late partner Phil
Wiley, on February 5th, 2024.
He was born in Oklahoma, on May 3rd, 1935. As a gay man, born and raised here, Vernon’s chosen
family is vast. He is survived by Hayward Jones, Nekesha Jones, JaKobe Jones, Sue Davis, Fred
Hilliard, Arlowe Clementine, Mason Thomas, Rey Thomas, and so many other individuals that
claimed Vernon as their friend, family, and elder.
Vernon was an active learner, even in his later years. He was always working to understand the
world around him and was eternally hopeful for a better world. He was a strong advocate for
marginalized peoples and was particularly committed to Queer and Black Liberation.
Vernon was a clear Taurus. He was intelligent, dependable, logical, honest, and generous. Vernon
spent most of his life focused on making his community better. He was a holder of receipts. A
maker of spreadsheets. A true community historian and archivist.
Vernon was dedicated to making people safer, both in his career in emergency management and
his activist work in the fight against AIDS. He was not a stranger to controversy and was unrelenting
in speaking his truth and the truth of the people he loved.
In the years before his death, Vernon worked hard to ensure that the legacy of LGBTQ activism in
Tulsa was properly recorded and preserved for current and future generations. His substantial
archive is now housed in Oklahoma State University’s Archives. This collection will be witnessed by
researchers and community members for years to come.
Vernon was a connector. He worked hard to bring people together and was always willing to give
someone support that needed it. Even in his death, he is connecting individuals over their shared
love and respect for him and his life.
Vernon fought hard for his community and the legacy of his late partner Phil Wiley. Anyone who
knew Vernon was graced with stories of Phil’s life and legacy as well as their love for one another.
In lieu of flowers, we ask that you remember Vernon by learning something new, taking a stand on
social issues that are important to you, and keeping his life and legacy alive through storytelling.
https://www.butler-stumpff.com/obituaries/vernon-leon-jones/

2/4

�1/8/26, 1:44 PM

Vernon Leon Jones - Butler-Stumpff &amp; Dyer Funeral Home &amp; Crematory

Vernon’s memorial service will take place March 1st at 11 AM at Butler-Stumpff &amp; Dyer Funeral
Home (2103 E 3rd St, Tulsa, OK 74104).

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BUTLER-STUMPFF &amp; DYER
FUNERAL HOME &amp; CREMATORY


2103 E 3rd St
Tulsa, OK 74104

 (918) 587-7000
 info@butler-stumpff.com
 Available 24/7

https://www.butler-stumpff.com/obituaries/vernon-leon-jones/

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                    <text>oklahomans for equality

Oklahomans for Equality
Oral History Interview
with
Leslie Penrose
Interview Conducted by Laura Belmonte
Date: March 31, 2006
Transcribed By: Matthew Warren
Transcript Edited by Dennis Neill - December 27, 2025

Restrictions: Interviewee requested - NIA.

Oklahomans for Equality
History Project
621 E. 4th Street
Tulsa, OK. 74120
918.743.4297
historyproiect@okeg.org

�LGBT History Project

03/31/2006
Interview of Leslie Penrose by Laura Belmonte

Laura:

It is Friday, March 31 2006 and we are at the Community
of Hope Church with Leslie Penrose for today's interview.
Leslie, let's just start with some basic biographical
information. When were you born, what was your family
and education like and those sorts of things?

Leslie:

I was born in Amarillo, Texas in 1951 into an oil field
family. And I grew up all over the Midwest and lived in
almost every state west of the Mississippi. I went to 18
different schools between kindergarten and col lege. Roots
are something I long for and moving is something I do
well. Although, in my adult life I have lived in Tulsa since
1979 and really do feel like I'm establishing roots here and

2

�that this is home. Although my husband and I have
moved to like 5 different houses so we still practice the
moving thing.
Laura:

Did you have any brothers and sisters?

Leslie:

I did. I had two younger brothers and a younger sister so
I was the oldest of four: and they're all still living. My dad
is dead but my mother is still living.

Laura:

And where did you go to college?

Leslie:

T.U. for my undergrad degree in Religion. I got my
Masters of Divinity at Phillips Theological Seminary in
Tulsa.

Laura:

And you mentioned you are married, how long have you
been?

Leslie:

35 years. I got married 6 months out of high school. He
was in the Marine Corps and I moved to California to take
up residence on the Camp Pendleton Marine Core base the
day after we got married.

Laura:

Wow. And do you have children?

Leslie:

I do. I have two. My daughter, Keli, was born there in
California after we had been married about two years. And
the other one was born on the East coast. We moved back
here after Steve's discharge, for him to go to school at OU.
From there we moved Richmond, Virginia for Steve's first
job, and my son, Kyle, was born there.

Laura:

Well let's move on to the issues of the gay community and
gay people and such. When was the first time you recall
hearing anything about the gay community in Tulsa?

Leslie:

I'm not sure about hearing about the gay community in
Tulsa, but I do know when my own sense of awareness of
gay issues happened. In the late 70s I was a banker, and
not particularly happy with that. I took a trip to Central
America to try and figure things out and find out what I
wanted to be when I "grew up." The leader of the group I
went with was a gay man.
3

�It was a very transforming trip for me and my relationship
with him was very transforming. I experienced him in a
very pastoral, religious way. I asked him one day why he
wasn't a pastor because he just had such a gift for it. He
said, "Well I would be except that the church won't let me.
I'm gay."
It was not anything that I ever consciously 'knew.' I mean,
I must have been aware of it on some level but it had
never been part of my consciousness that that was where
the church was. And it just blew my socks off.

I have continued to maintain a relationship with him across
the years. But it was actually that experience and my
experience in Central America that drove me to seminaryseeking something beyond the shallow experience of
'church' that I had had growing up. Once I was in
seminary, that issue and other issues of justice just kept
pushing me to the edge, and I'd quit seminary and start it
again, thinking, 'I can't do this church thing because it's
way too oppressive.' But there was also something within
me that came out of that trip to Central America that said,
"My experience there says there's a different way of being
church, a way that has integrity and is life giving." I
wanted to be a part of THAT way of being church.
Laura:

Talk to me a little bit about your experiences at Phillips.
Why did you decide to go there?

Leslie:

Well I decided to go there because it was the only
seminary available to me. I was a young mother with
young kids. I needed a local place. They were just
opening their campus in Tulsa when I inquired in 1985,
and asked if I wanted to be a part of that very first class
that met here in Tulsa. I did.

Laura:

And you found this a kind of conflicted experience?
were they saying about issues of social justice and
homosexuality that you had to wrestle with?

Leslie:

You know I don't know if it was what they were saying as
much as it was what the gospel was saying. I think
actually the school was pretty mainline and kind of scared
to enter into the really tough issues. I had, for most of my

What

4

�life, been involved in social issues like nucleai
disarmament, immigration, and civil rights for African
Americans; but as I began to read the gospel and put
things together it became clear to me that something was
wrong with saying there are some folks that don't fit into
the "salvation plan" or however you want to talk about it.
The more I challenged that in my own thinking, the more I
needed to involve other people in the dialogue. I was the
President of the Student Council at Phillips at that time,
and actually challenged them to, for the first time, put gay
and lesbian issues on the agenda. I asked the Council to
attend a board meeting and requested that Phillips might
name itself a safe place for gay and lesbian students. It
was not at that time - it was more 'don't ask, don't tell.'
Folks were pretty threatened by that first dialogue, but it
opened the door and they are now a very affirming place
for gay and lesbian students.
At about the same time, while I was in seminary, I was a
part-time youth pastor at Memorial Drive United Methodist
Church. I got a call one day from a friend of mine at St.
Johns Hospital. She was a nurse, and she said that there
was a young man there and he was dying of AIDS. "He
hasn't had any visitors here for over a month. Would you
mind co.ming?" I knew nothing about AIDS, but I knew
someone shouldn't die with no visitors for a month. So I
went, and it was a baptism by fire. When I finally got in to
see him (after having to put on full protective clothing and
gloves, I asked if I could talk with him and he said "Sure.
Who are you?" I told him I was a minister, and he
responded, "Oh, you don't even need to bother. I already
know everything you have to say. My church has already
told me I'm going to hell."
It just broke my heart, and I said "I don't believe that."
He let me stay a few minutes so we could talk, and when I
left I asked if I could come back the next day. He said
"yes."

I was there everyday for about a week until that young
man died. During that time I got to meet a couple of his
friends who came by because they had heard he was going
to die. They said they had been afraid to visit. And from
there I was just 'connected.' It was like all of a sudden, a
5

�gate opened and there were a number of people who
needed to deal with their spiritual issues relating to HIV
and AIDS. Within a few weeks, I had connected with Dr.
Jeff Beal and Ted Campbell... and all of a sudden I was like
"the chaplain" for Dr. Seal's office.
One day Ted Campbell called me and asked me to do some
work with his HIV therapy group. "They have some
spiritual issues to deal with", he said. So I went. I was
there for about an hour, and it was actually a pretty hostile
group at first. Not too willing to talk. They had a few nice
questions to ask me, but there wasn't a conversation. And
then, right before it was time to go, one of the young men,
Jim B, looked at me and said, "I have a question for you.
So tell me why it is that God would create somebody and
then condemn them to hell. Tell me what kind of God
does that." The only response I had was "a God who
needs to die." Because that was true for me, the God that
they were carrying around with them needed to die. So
they invited me back and I went back to that group for
several months and worked on theological and spiritual
issues with them and about their own belovedness in God's
eyes.
Laura:

How did you become aware of the difficulties that LGBT
people faced at Phillips?

Leslie:

I just became aware that there were a couple of lesbian
students there that were not out and were not willing to be
out and only shared their story with me because I began
to break the silence about the issue and ask those kinds of
questions. By just becoming known as a 'safe person',
several students shared their stories with me.

Laura:

Did you, yourself, have people assume you were a lesbian?

Leslie:

Absolutely, all the time. In fact, when I first started The
Community of Hope I intentionally took off my wedding
ring. I didn't want the straight community relying on the
fact that I was straight to make me safe in their religious
settings. Because the people I was working with were not
safe in religious settings unless they pretended to be
straight, I was unwilling for it to be that obvious that I was
straight. Wrestling is a good thing for people ...
6

�Laura:

You weren't willing to flaunt your heterosexuality?

Leslie:

Yeah ... I just wasn't willing for someone else to use it. It
just made me furious that that's what made me safe.

Laura:

So what year did you finish seminary and how did your
career trajectory go after that?

Leslie:

I was ordained in 1989 and I was still on staff at Memorial
Drive UMC. In 1990 a young gay couple, both of whom
were living with AIDS, started coming to that church. And
then another couple came, and another, and so on. The
church was fairly receptive to the first two: the tokenism
thing was okay with them. But when it became 4 and 6
and 8 and a whole pew of young gay men, most of them
with AIDS, the church got more threatened.
Then in 1992 while I was in Central America leading a
mission trip, the church leaders had these secret meetings
and when I got back they told me I needed to leave. They
were no longer comfortable with my ministry. Well, in the
United Methodist Church that's not how it works. The
church doesn't decide when you leave, only the bishop can
decide that. So the bishop told them, "You don't decide
when she leaves. I do. And she will stay until June when
it is the normal time for pastors to leave."
So between August of '92 and June of '93, I was in this
horribly painful situation of serving this church where a
significant number of the people did not want me there,
but another significant number did. The church began to
split and the pastor, Dr George Warren, got threatened.
He wrote letters to two of the LGBT members who had
already joined - Mark Vickers and Brad Mulholland informing them that they couldn't do things like go into the
kitchen because they had AIDS; and they couldn't teach
Sunday school; or read Scripture from the chancel area.
I was appalled and they were deeply hurt - again. And so I
went to the bishop and said, "I understand that I'm going
to be moved in June and that's fine, that's the system.
But PLEASE put someone in Tulsa who can be a safe place
for these people. We've opened the door now and the care
7

�and acceptance that was promised needs to be provided."
After some conversation, the Bishop said, "You need to
start that congregation." Well, politically at that time, the
United Methodist Church would not support my starting a
new congregation that was open and affirming. So the
Bishop and I put our heads together.
He had just been in Central America studying Liberation
Theology; and he knew I often went to Central America.
We had both experienced the alternative 'churches' being
formed there called Base Communities. It was a model,
primarily in the Catholic tradition, where people who feel
abandoned by the hierarchy in society and the church,
formed small, local communities of justice and spirituality
where the people are the church. Occasionally a priest
may come and offer the sacraments, but the church is the
people. The people are doing the work of nurturing
spirituality; the people are doing social justice in their
communities. The result is that the people began reading
the bible in different ways, and questioning traditional
theology. A Base Community made sense for Tulsa. And
at the United Methodist Annual Conference in June of 1993
the Bishop of Oklahoma commissioned me to begin a Base
Community here in Tulsa ... whatever that might mean.
Laura:

What was this bishop's name?

Leslie:

Dan Solomon - a very courageous man. He found $12,000
dollars for me to have a part-time salary for a year, and
that's how it started: no place to meet, no office, no funds
for advertising or supplies. Nothing except a group of
people who were willing. I started by going to several
different churches to ask for meeting space. Finally,
Centenary United Methodist Church on North Denver,
agreed to allow us to meet in the evenings in their
basement.
So on June 21, 1993 we had the very first gathering of
Community of Hope. There were about 50 people at that
first gathering - half gay and half straight. No children
yet, but we had hopes.
There had been a group of 12 or 13 people who had been
meeting in my living room for two or three months trying
8

�to figure out what we wanted this church to look like.
One important piece was that we
were diverse in our membership_gay and straight, racially and age
diverse. We chose to use a Rainbow
candle as our Christ candle in
worship - Christ candles are always
white. Not ours - not our candle
and not our Christ.
Another important piece was that we wanted every aspect
of our congregational life to bear witness to our valuesespecially to our belief that every single person is a child of
God who deserves love and respect. So we decided that
for every dollar we spent on ourselves we would also
spend a dollar beyond our walls in some way that
supported the marginalized. We've done that now for 13
years, supporting a number of social justice activities and
organizations locally, nationally, and internationally.
We met there at Centenary for about two months until one
evening one of their morning members saw one of our
member couples kissing in the parking lot. Within a few
weeks, they asked us to leave. Next we rented a little life
insurance building on the corner of Yale and Pine, and
were there for about two and a half years. We outgrew it,
and then we rented a warehouse on 2nd and Utica which
we completely gutted and remodeled. It was a wonderful
space for us, and we had a deeply rich and vibrant time. In
early 1998, the City declared we couldn't stay because our
zoning wasn't right for being a church. We suspected there
was another agenda, but rather than spend time and
energy fighting their ruling, we began to look for another
building. We were 5 years old and looking for our 4t h
home.
Laura:

It's a good thing you had the experience ...

Leslie:

That's right, all of my life - move, move, move.
We decided to try and buy a building where we didn't have
to worry about being kicked out again. We tried to buy
three different church buildings but once they discovered
who we were, they refused to sell to us. So finally-you

9

�know if there is anything I regret in my ministry I think
this is what it is-we bought the building in the closet. We
had one of our members buy it and transfer it to us. It
was a deeply painful thing and it was fear that drove us to
it: fear that we weren't going to have any place to call
home. But I almost wish we hadn't done it, because I
think it ended up hurting us in subtle but significant ways.
I didn't realize that until a year or so later when I looked
back at some of the conflict we'd been experiencing. We
had never had conflict in our congregational life, but now
some people were acting in strangely dysfunctional ways.
I believe, looking back, that it was at least in part, because
we had gone back into the closet in order to buy that
building.
Laura:

Let's back up for a moment: I would assume some of this
got public attention of some sort. When was the first time
you remember gaining attention in the media for your
outreach in the GLBT community?

Leslie:

Actually the Tulsa World did a story in probably 1995 and
it was very positive about who we were and the outreach
we were doing. That was probably the first time we got
attention. I got hate mail regularly right from the
beginning, and ugly messages on our answering machine.
Some people in the neighborhood where we bought the
building, filed complaints about us with the police, that we
were "disturbing the peace." But we didn't really get much
other publicity until in 1999 when I was brought up on
ecclesiastical charges by the United Methodist Church.
Then there was lots of it, nationally.

Laura:

When you were interacting with these leasing agents and
realtors, had you been cognizant of laws on housing
discrimination not including sexual orientation?

Leslie:

I think I probably had, but it was that na"ive 'it's not
impacting me' kind of awareness. Besides, this was a
church and it never entered my mind that you would turn
down a whole church! It still just blows me away.

Laura:

The reason I ask is because we probably looked at 20
different spaces when we rented and that was just 2 years
ago.

�Leslie:

And how painful it is! I mean I'm a straight woman, I had
never dealt with any of this before and I had no idea of
how painful it could be.

Laura:

Did you have any sort of dialogue within the church about
the dissention that the decision to buy, sort of
'undercover,' was causing?

Leslie:

No, we never had a dialogue about it. I preached about it
and I think that in and of itself - giving it voice - did some
of the healing we needed. We named what was going on
and that helped to heal the wounds: we admitted that we
really messed up and we pledged together that we would
not do that again.

Laura:

In relation to your having this sort of ministry, churches
don't exist as little islands, when was the first time you
recall encountering something from a different religious
bent here in Tulsa?

Leslie:

In 1990, when I was presented for ordination in the United
Methodist Church, I was charged by a colleague with
heresy. The specific charge was that I didn't believe in the
bodily resurrection of Christ as a literal event. But what
was behind that charge was the work I was doing with the
LGBT community and how threatened people were by that.
Terry Ewing who at that time was an associate minister at
Will Rogers United Methodist Church was the person who
actually filed the charges, saying that I shouldn't be
ordained because I didn't honor the ministerial covenant.
It was a deeply painful thing to stand alone on the floor of
the Annual Conference at Boston Avenue Church, before
the 600-plus ministers in Oklahoma, and have them
debate whether or not I was appropriate for ministry. But
it ended up being a pretty wonderful thing because it did
two things: 1) It made me decide how important this
particular ministry was to me, and what I really believed
about the Gospel. I decided right then and there that if I
couldn't do the ministry that I felt called to do, then being
ordained was meaningless. I think that decision on the
floor of the conference is what got me through later
challenges in my ministry that were much more difficult.

11

�So I ended up being grateful for that initial little baptism
by fire.
The second thing that incident did was to openly challenge
the Oklahoma Conference of ministers to deal with what it
was going to mean to have diversity in its midst. The vote
that day ended up something like 590 to 17. But the
really affirming thing happened later that night, at the
public ordination ceremony held at Boston Avenue Church
with a full sanctuary. When Bishop Solomon ordains
someone, he always invites family and others who are
there in support of the person being ordained, to stand as
he places his hand on their head and ordains them. That
night, when he put his hand on my head, almost the entire
room stood. The vast majority didn't know or care about
me personally, but they cared about diversity. Standing
for me was their way of saying 'we are not going to be a
church who says no to diversity.' It was a very powerful
moment.
Laura:

Was this coexistent or did it precede debates on LGBT
clergy in the church?

Leslie:

Oh it was right in the middle of it. The Methodist Church
has been debating that for years and years and years.

Laura:

This obviously was going in a different direction.

Leslie:

Yes, this wasn't about gay clergy but about what
restrictions we place on who we minister to.

Laura:

How about from non-Methodist clergy in Tulsa?

Leslie:

Totally mixed. It's kind of always been true for me in
Tulsa clergy circles that when I walk into a room, the room
kind of divides by where they are on this issue and other
kinds of liberal issues. There are a lot of times I become
sort of a metaphor for liberal religion or social justice
issues in many settings. I've just gotten used to that.

Laura:

Now who would you construe as having been allies in this?
Were there others making similar sorts of overtures to the
LGBT community as you were? Or were you the trend
setter?
12

�Leslie:

I think in 1993 there were not many allies in Oklahoma.
Community Hope was the first open and affirming,
mainline congregation (other than MCC) in Tulsa. There
were certainly clergy friends that I had who were
sympathetic but they were not out there pushing the
envelope.

Laura:

After 1993, what happened?

Leslie:

In 1996 the United Methodist Church passed a law saying
that Methodist clergy cannot do same-sex blessings and
those unions cannot happen in United Methodist churches.
Community of Hope had been doing them all along. We
would publish them in our newsletter, and put invitations
and pictures out publicly. There was no secrecy. When the
law passed, we had a congregational meeting and decided
that come what may, we were not going to quit.
We started an intentional process of asking ourselves,
what is our theology of marriage, and how do we justify
what we do? That resulted in writing a document that we
adopted as our official position, including the commitment
that that we would not stop. At about that same time,
Bishop Solomon, who had blessed the start up of
Community of Hope, moved to another call, and Oklahoma
was assigned a new bishop: Bruce Blake. Bishop Blake
said immediately and clearly that I must stop performing
gay unions. I responded that I can't do that.
A kind of 'dance' started then with the Oklahoma
Conference. COH continued hosting holy unions and I
continued officiating at those services. The conference
leadership began asking for print copies or videos of
services, and we'd send them. They'd respond, "you can
keep doing this part but you can't wear your stole ( official
clergy wear) .... Then ... 'you can stand with the couple but
you can't bless the rings'.... Then, 'you can't say I
announce you as wife and wife' or whatever....
We tried dancing with them for awhile because we really
wanted it to work-if they were going to move a little and
let us do unions, then we could move a little as well and do
them differently. So I quit wearing my stole .... Then I
13

�moved to bless the rings before the ceremony and not
during it... etc etc. After months of this dance, with more
and more restrictions, it just finally became clear that the
process had no integrity. It felt like people were being
asked to cut off one of their arms or legs. 'Don't kill
yourself,' they were saying, 'just cut off a piece of
yourself."
I went back to the conference leadership and said 'I just
can't do this, and we went back to doing full unions.' For
awhile there was nothing but silence from conference
leadership.
Shortly after that, the strangest thing happened. In 1998
there was a holy union in California that a whole group of
clergy did collectively instead of as individual clergy. And
they asked clergy across the nation to join them by signing
on as 'officiates in abstentia'. So I signed on.
Some lay person in Eufaula decided that was unacceptable
to him, and he filed official church charges against me for
having done a holy union in abstentia in January. Channel
11 here in Tulsa did a report on those charges and as part
of their story, they got in touch with a couple for whom I
had performed a holy union. The couple proudly and
innocently, shared a video of their ceremony with the
reporter and that night it was on the news. Within days
Bishop Blake filed more charges - not just for signing on in
abstenia, but for conducting union ceremonies. The
national media picked it up .... and it just got to be this
ridiculous mess. Bishop Blake dug in his heels and told me
that I had three choices:
1) I could stop doing any unions immediately, or
2) I could go to church trial, or
3) I could give up my ordination and leave the United
Methodist denomination.
It didn't make any sense to me go to trial: I'm was openly
guilty and I didn't plan to quit doing the ceremonies. So
why would I want to spend time and energy going through
that. More importantly, why would I want to drag
Community of Hope through a national spectacle. They
were already wounded and weary from months and
months of threats and intimidation and harrassment.
14

�Knowing w hat might come, I had done my homework
about my options, I immediately began to work with the
United Church of Christ to
t ra nsfer my ordination.
The UMC charges had
come on February 4, 1999;
I transferred my ordi nation
orders on March 4 th 1999.
That process required that
I return my certificate of
ord ination to Bishop Blake,
which I did. He actua lly
sent it back to me with my
dismissal scrawled across it in black marker.

Laura:

And how did all of t his effect the congregation?

Leslie:

We lost a hu ge number of people. In mid 1998 we were
averaging 90-100 in worship. By March of 1999 attendance
had dwindled to about 35. One more time the church had
said "you're welcome here" but then stabbed them in the
back. It broke my heart.
I had been in the Methodist chu rch for 15 years as
ordained clergy. I had a lot of relationships th ere ... t here
was a lot to let go of... . a lot to grieve.

La ura:

How did you make the overture to the Un ited Church of
Christ and how did the change affect the church?

Leslie:

It was really interesting. The story I told you about going
to Central America and the trip leader who was gay - well,
as things were heating up in 1998, he wrote to me and
said he had joined the United Church of Christ. "That is
where you belong," he said. So I went to talk to Russ
Bennett, who was pastor of the on ly UCC church in Tulsa.
Russ's imm ediate res ponse was 'Of course you belong
here!" That week he drove me to Kingfisher to talk with
the UCC Committee on Ministry; and he nurtured me
through the process of transferring.

Laura:

You've experienced a lot more first hand homophobia than
a lot of gay people I know! So what sort of outreach and
progra mmin g was the church doing?

15

�Leslie:

Well, COH held its first worship service in June of 1993. In
July, we started feeding the homeless once a month. We'd
prepare the food together and then take
- ---,,,,=
it to the Day Center and serve it. We
also started volunteering with the GED
program in the jails in July. In August,
we took 10 of our "companions" (we
don't really use 'member' language) on
a mission trip to Nicaragua to build a
house in a critically poor community.
Those are all things we continue to do,
plus we sponsor an apartment for DVIS, had a RAIN team
for years, we host 3 different AA/NA meetings in our
building; and we volunteer with several other social service
and non-profit agencies in Tulsa.
But it was our ministry with and to those living and dying
with HIV/AIDS that both shaped and defined us. From the
beginning we've always been at least 25% HIV infected .
The core symbol of Community of Hope was a "brokenmade-whole chalice". It was gifted to us during our
formation by Ted Campbell who was an HIV therapist. He
had found it in a small pottery shop when he visited what
used to be East Germany not too long after the wall came
down. It's a chalice that incorporates cracked and broken
pieces, and yet, still holds the sacramental wine we use in
Holy Communion. It is a vessel that has been wounded,
but it's woundedness isn't hidden or a thing of shame; but
rather a beautiful and blessed part of the whole. Just like
each of us - including, and perhaps ESPECIALLY, those
who are living with their dying . That chalice ... and the
broken-made-wholeness it represents is integral to who we
are. That's why it's so important that we - the community
- engage in as many ways of serving others as we can.
When we become the vessel of healing and hope to others,
we find it brings healing and hope to us. And, we also
found that people living with HIV often felt like 'victims' or
objects of care. Serving others in mission projects
switched those roles - the wounded became the healer
and that was incredibly empowering.

16

�Laura:

You've mentioned Jeff Beal, When was the first time you
really encountered the AIDS epidemic? Was it before your
ministry?

Leslie:

I'm sure I'd heard about it but it wasn't a part of my daily
life: and I don't think I knew anything about it or the
bigotry around it. Not until that nurse called and I met the
young man who was dying alone.

Laura:

What were some of the things you remember about how
the community was reacting?

Leslie:

There was incredible fear - both IN the gay community
and OF the gay community. No one knew how you got it
and people were afraid to touch anything that someone
with HIV had touched. Families didn't know how to react.
It was such a big part of my ministry to go into a hospital
room or some other setting, and hold hands, hug, give foot
rubs - just TOUCH the person who was being treated as an
'untouchable.' When Community of Hope started, we
actually developed a whole series of Rituals of Touch that
were about affirming the lives and bodies of people who
were living with AIDS. And I often found myself modeling
for families who loved their son/brother etc. but were
afraid and had no idea how to respond. I would hug the
person or give them a back rub and talk with the famjly
about the myths surrounding the transmission of HIV.
It was also incredibly hard to find nursing homes that
would take people with AIDS. Home health care was
almost impossible for PWA;s (person's with AIDS). Even
funeral homes refused to serve people who had died of
AIDS. For a long time, Butler Stumpff was the only home
in town that would receive their bodies and serve their
families... Lots of the funerals were done at Community of
Hope because there was no where else to go. In those
early years, I often did 2-3 funerals a week.

Laura:

So you change denominations and go through this searing
experience. Did you get national attention and how would
you describe that experience?

Leslie:

Oh a flash in the pan. Jimmy Creach was another
Methodist brought up on charges about the same tim~,
17

�and it was in a couple national papers and theological
journals. It felt so insignificant compared to what was
happening here in my backyard, that I didn't really pay
attention to it.
Laura:

Talk a little more about the local fires.

Leslie:

The press was willing to reprint whatever people said and
that got pretty nasty. I remember one of the news
channels came to do a report here at the church, and we
were clearing "Methodist" stuff out of the church. Just
kind of joking, I said "What in the world are we going to do
with 80 United Methodist hymnals." And, of course, that's
the quote they chose to put on the air! I got lots of ugly
messages: "how can you call yourself a minister and say
that you know the bible?" People put hours of work into
trying to convince me that I was wrong. But we also got
an equal amount of mail that was supportive. I got one
card that said, "I will hold my head a little higher because
of you. Thank You." That felt pretty amazing.

Laura:

Tell me about how the church has changed since all of this
happened. Any particularly notable events or members
over the years?

Leslie:

Well one relationship I want to note is Phillips Seminary.
COH has several professors and students that are a part of
our congregation and Phillips has been such a supportive
and wonderful institution for us. Dr. Brandon Scott has
written a book called "Re-imagine our World" and the last
chapter is about Community of Hope, and in particular his
relationship with one young gay man who died of AIDS.
I'm really grateful that a straight white male in a powerful
position is willing and able to look and say "I was really
changed by this young man who people said didn't count
and didn't matter."
It's been so good and life-giving to spend the last five
years pouring my energy into creative, healing ministry
and not fighting. Those first 7 or 8 years were spent
fighting the institution, or at least defending ourselves
from it. And now we are truly dancing with our
denominational partner in a mutually supportive way. It is

18

�so nice to be able to use our energy for creative things and
not fighting institutions.
Laura:

How has all of this affected your husband and children?

Leslie:

It affected my children profoundly. They don't go to
church and have never been able to find a faith community
they trust. They just have no tolerance for hypocracy and
are having a hard time figuring out what religious life
means to them. My husband was probably more wounded
by the stuff with the United Methodist Church than I was,
because he felt so powerless. He couldn't do anything
about it. All he could do was stand by my side and watch
them hurt me ... and he has enough white male in him (exMarine) that he wants to be the knight in shining armor.
I've been able to let go of my anger at them, but he just
can't. To this day, every time he hears the whole UMC
spiel about Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors, he just
boils. I'm not angry anymore, and I'm able to name the
gifts I received from my time with the Methodists. I had
some wonderful years as a Methodist and COH never
would have happened without them. But it's been hard for
Steve.

Laura:

There's been a vocal and organized LGBT community for
quite awhile in Tulsa, but that hasn't translated to big
political names despite the city's size. Why do you suspect
that is the case?

Leslie:

First of all I've seen lots of incredible changes. In 1993
when Community of Hope opened there was nothing for
the gay community besides bars. Even like the pride store
was inside a bar! The group at TOHR didn't have a home:
there were just bars. I'm really grateful that it has
become so much more mainstream in Tulsa. As for why, I
think it's the same reason Tulsa hasn't progressed more
with issues of racism and poverty. I think middle and
upper class privilege affects us in ways that keep us from
really dealing with issues of marginalization in the longterm way that we need to. We engage in the struggle for
a little while, but if change doesn't happen quickly, we
have other things to do-we have busy lives and enough
privilege that we can move on.

19

�Laura:

How has the gay community and the community at large
supported you over the years? Can you give me some
examples of that?

Leslie:

Well Nancy McDonald has always been very supportive,
financially and in all other ways. People like Marcus Rice,
who works at Williams, and Dennis Neill are there to be
supportive and let you know that they are behind you.

Laura:

Is there anything else you'd like to add? If not, I
appreciate your time.

Leslie:

Well I appreciate yours. And I appreciate the gift of the
journey.

Transcribed by Matthew Warren
E~ited by Leslie Penrose, Dec 2026

20

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