3 20 689 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/edde5cee0c87796495da8224fcd4dec0.mp4 5815341d8dca43351639e8b30a0e0535 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/2e3bbcc43ab98711e95823244ffe02e6.pdf 9bfad13b7148d2a1c9be6cc96f451db7 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with David Dees Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: April 21, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About David Dees: Summary This interview with David Dees offers a deep dive into the history of LGBTQ+ community life in Tulsa, including early club culture, personal experiences with family acceptance, and the evolution of Pride events. It provides valuable insights into the challenges and resilience of the community over decades. Join us for an in-depth interview with David Dees as he shares his experiences and insights from decades of activism, community organizing, and the history of LGBTQ+ life in Tulsa. Discover stories of community resilience, the fight against AIDS, and the importance of education and inclusion. Keywords LGBTQ+ history, Tulsa, club culture, family acceptance, Pride events, community resilience LGBTQ+ history, Tulsa, community activism, AIDS awareness, LGBTQ+ community, pride, history, activism, community organizing, LGBTQ+ rights Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 03:00 High School Years and Early Independence 06:02 First Jobs and Early Adult Life 09:01 Coming Out and Family Dynamics 11:58 Experiences in Gay Bars 15:06 Navigating Relationships and Identity 18:01 The Impact of Family Acceptance 20:59 Police Harassment and Community Challenges 2 �24:01 Reflections on Parental Relationships 38:58 Navigating Heartbreak: A Lesson in Self-Worth 43:22 Family Dynamics and Coming Out 49:52 The Power of Words: Language and Identity 52:32 The Evolution of the Gay Bar Scene 01:02:25 AIDS Awareness: The Community's Response 01:09:43 Fundraising and Support During the AIDS Crisis 01:17:21 Community Dynamics and Discrimination 01:19:14 Violence and Resilience in the LGBTQ+ Community 01:22:37 The Pulse Nightclub Memorial and Community Solidarity 01:27:27 Fundraising and Support for the LGBTQ+ Community 01:32:36 The Role of Bars in LGBTQ+ History 01:40:05 Legacy and Influence of LGBTQ+ Icons 01:43:10 Compassion and Community Responsibility 01:49:21 Messages for Future Generations David Dees Oral History Interview April 21, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Good afternoon, it's April the 21st, 2026. We are at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library, Joe here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. We have David Dees today with us a local business owner and community leader. Those present for the interviews, Amanda Thompson, archivist at the Equality Center, Mary Bishop- Baldwin, renowned journalist and petitioner in the marriage equality lawsuit and also helping here in the archives. And Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality. And our interviewer today is Toby Jenkins. All right, David, I know over the years I've heard you talk a little bit about your family, so I want to get just a little bit of background. Where were you born? David Dees: Southern Florida. Toby Jenkins: Southern Florida? Where at in Florida? David Dees: By way of Lake Okeechobee area, actually. Toby Jenkins: And what was your family, were they from Florida or did they… David Dees: Well, let's see, my mom would have been from Wisconsin, and my dad's family is all Southern Florida people. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so you were born there, and what year would that have been? David Dees: 58. Toby Jenkins: 1958, okay, and how did you end up in Oklahoma? David Dees: My dad got transferred out here when I was 14. Toby Jenkins: 14 years old, and what was his background? David Dees: He was an insurance salesman. 3 �Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so you came, you left a place with beaches and sunshine, and old people. David Dees: And old people. Toby Jenkins: And you came to a place that had four seasons, bitter cold in the winter and bitter heat in the summer. What were your thoughts about that as a 14year-old kid? David Dees: I don't even know if I can tell that story or not. I remember my grandmother crying, and I'd ask her, what's going on? And she's like, you're moving to a place where you won't have a house. You'll be in a mud shack with grass on the roof, and you won't have cars, and you'll have to ride ponies. And I remember going up to my mom, I'm like, where the hell are we moving? And my mom says, I swear I've been out there, it's not like that. And thank God it wasn't. Toby Jenkins: And it wasn't? David Dees: It wasn't. Toby Jenkins: And so you would have moved when you were 14 to Tulsa? David Dees: Mm-hmm, 72. Toby Jenkins: And what junior high did you go to? David Dees: Edison. Toby Jenkins: Edison? David Dees: Yeah, Edison was a combo junior, senior, 7 through 12. Toby Jenkins: And then you graduated from high school there. David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember any details about your high school years? David Dees: We could smoke in the smoke hole. Toby Jenkins: Smoking in the smoke hole. Oh, Lord. David Dees: You know, it was a pretty fun time. Definitely different from what school is like now, for sure. I think it's more relaxed. We could leave campus to go eat lunch. We could do a lot of stuff, drive to school. I think they do that now still. Toby Jenkins: What year did you graduate? David Dees: 76, bicentennial, baby. Toby Jenkins: Yes. And do you remember how many were in your graduating class? David Dees: Oh, Lord. 650, almost 700. Toby Jenkins: Right. 4 �David Dees: It was big. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, I think it has less than 300 now. David Dees: Wow, really? Toby Jenkins: And so that would have been right at the apex of Tulsa and Tulsa Public Schools. I think in those days it had about 84,000 students in its school system. David Dees: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: And it has a third of that now. Most probably because of private schools and urban sprawl and suburbs. David Dees: Well, I remember urban sprawl was starting to be a deal because Union was actually one of the bigger schools then, and then it became Broken Arrow, Jenks, and now even Bixby is considered really growing huge, I think. Toby Jenkins: So did you have special interests in high school? Were the things that you were involved in, other than sneaking around smoking in the smoke holes? David Dees: Smoking in the smoke holes? Toby Jenkins: Yeah. David Dees: No, no, no. All I wanted to do was to get out of school. That's all I could live for. Toby Jenkins: So when you graduated from high school in 1976, what was, kind of what was the climate in the United States at that time? What stands out in your mind and your perspective as a new high school graduate? David Dees: Seems like you made $1.75 an hour and I remember thinking, wow, if I make $600 a month, I can pay my rent, my car payment, my utilities, and eat. Toby Jenkins: And did you go directly from high school into the workforce? David Dees: Absolutely. I was working before I was out of high school. First job I had when I got here was I picked up a paper route with the Tulsa Tribune, six days with the Tulsa Tribune, and threw the Sunday World. And that's how I bought my first car, my first motorcycle. Toby Jenkins: What motorcycle? David Dees: A Honda SL125 dirt bike. Toby Jenkins: Mine was a Kawasaki. David Dees: Remember, they used to have the strip pits over at Yale and, oh gosh, North Yale. What is that out where the airport is? There's Pine and then Apache, Yale and Apache. I used to ride those strip pits all the time out there as a kid. Toby Jenkins: They're still there. They're still riding. David Dees: Still burning too, I think. 5 �Toby Jenkins: They're still riding motorcycles out there too, Sunday afternoons. So, your first car? David Dees: Oh, Lord, do I have to say that? 1976 Ford Pinto Station. A green one. Toby Jenkins: I'm more embarrassed than that. I had a 1976 Gremlin that was orange. David Dees: Oh, dear God. At least it wasn't that horrible gold. I remember that. I'm like, those hubcaps are horrible. Toby Jenkins: Now, was yours a hatchback or a station wagon? David Dees: Mine was a station wagon. Toby Jenkins: Oh, okay. David Dees: You know, hey, I was cool. I think it had the wood grain down it too. Toby Jenkins: So, what was your first job after high school? David Dees: Oh, Lord, that'd have to have been Fur’s Cafeteria at the Farm. Toby Jenkins: What did you do at Fur’s Cafeteria? David Dees: You do not want to know. So, I started out in the dish room, then wound up on the serving line of all things, and then wound up as a dining room supervisor out there. That was crazy. Toby Jenkins: And so, were you on your own? I mean, had you already moved out of the house? David Dees: The day I graduated, I broke my mom's heart. I'm up early and she's like, where are you going? I said, I've been telling you for a year that I graduated, I'm out of here. Toby Jenkins: Okay. David Dees: She didn't think I was serious. Toby Jenkins: Was it just because you wanted independence or did you feel some kind of... David Dees: I think it's a combination of things, honestly. I think I was figuring out that there was something different about me. You know, I already knew because back then, you would have to go sneak to QuikTrip or get a little Playboy magazine or something, you know? So, yeah, I knew there was something different about me. Oh, yeah, that's right. Holy crap. I was kind of a young kid sneaking out, going into the bars. Yikes. I've forgotten about that because I was 15, I guess. Toby Jenkins: Wow. You were already about 15. How do you identify? David Dees: Gay man. Toby Jenkins: Gay man. Ok. So, even at that age, you already had figured out you were different? 6 �David Dees: I knew at 12 I was. Probably, you know, it's real funny because looking back for years, I remember being in... What would I have been in? 3rd or 4th grade and I had a teacher, you know, a male teacher that I always remember was a striking, good-looking man and every time he walked by, I'm like, mmm, English Leather Lime. So, you know, maybe that was the beginning that there was something different about me back then. But I didn't know what it was, you know what I'm saying? Dennis Neill: That was my cologne, too. Toby Jenkins: I was Jovan Musk. David Dees: You know, I may have worn that, too. Aramis and all of those. Toby Jenkins: Alright. So, do you feel like you wanted to be out of the house because you knew you were gay or just you wanted the independence as a young adult? David Dees: A, B, C, D, E, F, G. Wanted to come and go as you... Absolutely all of it. Absolutely all of it. You know, part of my life, there was no business that was going on, you know. I'll never forget my mom even coming into my house one time. It was right after I'd moved out. You know, of course, we may have smoked a little weed back then and we may have had cute little bongs and nobody knew what they were. And I remember my mom had come into my house and I'd walk by my table and I'm like, whoa…And she has taken my bong that was like a little Roman girl holding a flower basket and had put flowers in it and then told me how dirty the water was in it. So yeah, there was a lot of reasons when I left home. Toby Jenkins: Where was your first place, if it was your place? David Dees: Oh my god, it was a trailer park and it's still there at Admiral and Yale. Toby Jenkins: Admiral and Yale. David Dees: Behind the K-Mart. Well, it used to be the K-Mart, McElroy now. Toby Jenkins: By the post office? David Dees: Yeah, well, it used to be tiny, tiny and then they made it for big trailers. I mean, there were twice the trailers in there when I lived in there. Toby Jenkins: Did you have a roommate? David Dees: Nope, no. Toby Jenkins: You were working at Fur’s Cafeteria. David Dees: Yep, well, yeah, by then I'd gone on to do something else. I don't even remember what I was doing then. I think I was working downtown somewhere. Toby Jenkins: Now, you mentioned that you could go into the convenience stores and you could buy magazines. David Dees: Your adult magazines. 7 �Toby Jenkins: Yep, you could buy them in there. David Dees: Absolutely. Blue Boy, Playgirl. Seemed like they actually even carried a few that were geared toward gay men. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, well, Blue Boy. David Dees: Blue Boy was definitely, but there was another one. I can't remember what they were, but of course, I remember going to the clerk. I'm getting this for my mom. Oh yeah, but your mom wants to look at Blue Boy. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so you talked about, you hinted at that you were already aware of gay bars and that you were trying to sneak into those. David Dees: Oh Lord, that's right. That is, okay, I do remember how I found my first gay bar. I was, Lord have mercy. This is when I worked at Fur’s and I was dating a girl who dumped me to go with a flaming gay man, of all things. Toby Jenkins: You were just too butch. David Dees: I don't know what it was, but then I remember one night hearing them talk about how, you know, we're gonna go by the gay bar and yell at the queers and the fags and I'm like, oh, cool, you know? And so I go with them and then of course, I'm like, oh, so here's the Friends Lounge at 3rd and Utica, cool. Okay, guys, I need to go home. I don't feel good. My stomach's bothering me. 45 minutes later, I'm back down there sitting in my car on the parking lot. Toby Jenkins: And it was, tell us a little bit about the Friends. That would have been your first gay bar? David Dees: I didn't go into it. I was scared to death, but I mean, I sat, many nights, I sat outside that thing and just watched, watched, watched from a parking lot. The first bar that I ever went into was the Old Queen of Hearts downtown. And that was on, what, like 9th to 10th on Main, but on the east side of the road. It's a parking lot now. Toby Jenkins: On the Fruit Loop? David Dees: Yes, on the Fruit Loop, absolutely. And that was also one that I sat outside forever and I remember, oh, Lord, this is a traumatic experience. I'm sitting in my car and there was this guy that had been, I guess, watching me several weeks just sitting in the car. You know how you do, sit down, look over the door, you know, that far over the glass. And he finally taps on my window. He's like, what are you doing? I said, I'm just sitting here watching. He goes, well, why don't you go in with everybody? And I was like, man, I can't go in there. What if somebody knows me? You know, and of course he's like, well, what the hell do you think they're in there for? I'm like, oh yeah, cool idea. So I go in there. I finally get the courage about 30 minutes later going to this bar and I walk in there and they had a quiet bar in front and then in the back was the disco area. And I remember walking in there and it was so dark, you know, you can't see anything. So you're just kind of stumbling through, making your way through. And she's going to appreciate this story because I'm going to name this lady's name and you'll know her. 8 �So I walk into this thing and then I go through the double doors of the disco. There's a strobe going on. I'm like, holy crap, I can't see anything. And all I remember hearing is a girl scream. Oh my God, that guy that just walked in. I went to high school with him. So I turn around and I run and this little flamboyant cocktail waiter had come in behind me and had his tray with the glasses up like that. And I mean, bam, I hit him so hard. Glassware flew everywhere, knocked him on the ground and I stomped him just going out the door, like running out the door, man. I mean, I'm shoving people out of the way. I'm in the middle of Main Street, almost to the church parking lot across the street because it was right across from the Christian church. And I am almost to where my car's parked and I feel somebody jump on my back and I go down into the street face first and I'm like, don't hurt me, don't hurt me, don't hurt me. And it's this girl going, David Dees, David Dees, I'm Patty Murray and we went to high school together. Sure enough, her and I used to sit in a smoke hole and smoke all the time. Toby Jenkins: Well, we've heard about the legendary Patty because she eventually worked the door at Zippers. David Dees: Yes, and then Dr. Beal's office. She was, you know, in Dr. Beal's office for years when the AIDS epidemic first came on. Or is it crisis, I guess? Both. Toby Jenkins: So, someone you knew from high school clocked you and then dragged you back in. I did go back in. And did you apologize to the waiter? David Dees: I did not apologize to that waiter. I was praying nobody would even remember me. Toby Jenkins: And so you went in and what was that experience once you got in there and it was somebody you knew who helped you? David Dees: You know, I remember the first song I remember hearing, believe it or not, Strawberry Letter 23. That old disco tune. And I'll probably never forget that song because that was the first thing playing in there. And I just remember like, this is pretty cool, you know. Basic room, it wasn't really much of anything. It was just a bunch of people dancing. And I loved the music. Toby Jenkins: Big crowd, small crowd? David Dees: For what I remember, you know, it was probably a pretty decent, it was a full room of people. I don't remember how big the room was at the time, but I believe that was actually, might have been one of the bars that Tim Turner was involved in originally before he went to the Old Plantation and some of the others that he did out, you know, around town. Toby Jenkins: And this was Queen of Hearts, if I'm following? David Dees: Correct. And it went by another name too, but Queen of Hearts was the first name that I remember it being as. And then up the road you had the Zebra Lounge and the Taj Mahal around the corner, which I just noticed they tore all of that down to redevelop that whole block now, where Bank of America built, the branches. 9 �Toby Jenkins: The Holiday Innmis across from the big tall building there. Toby Jenkins: So this would have been in the late 70s, would have been 77? David Dees: No, mid-70s. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So this was before you'd even graduated from high school, right? David Dees: Maybe, I'll let you take it. Toby Jenkins: Okay, very good. Because this was somebody you knew from high school. Yes, yes. David Dees: Yeah, right after high school. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so were you still working at Fur’s Cafeteria during this time? David Dees: Probably so, actually. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So for many of our viewers, they'll know you as a business owner and a club owner and a DJ and all of that. Tell us a little bit about your early adult life and your, I mean, I'm wanting to jump to how I know you through the clubs, but I'm sure there were some career changes and maybe some relationships. David Dees: Yeah, I was going into Zippers underage. Well, I'd met John Willis at the Old Plantation, which was at 51st and Yale. It had been a bar called Bojangles, and then Tim Turner took it and turned it into a gay club. And that's where I met John Willis. John Willis was, at the time, still married but coming out and in the process of getting ready to divorce. And he did some of their sound system and stuff. So, Lord, I'm trying to think. And then after the Plantation, it was shortly after, I think the Plantation lasted a couple years before it caught fire and burned. And then about that time, George Kravis had done, let's see, I'm trying to remember, I think it was Casablanca first, at 33rd and Yale. And it was supposed to be like a little gambling casino that had slot machines and card games and stuff. And it was geared towards the upper-scale clientele. And then, of course, it got raided by the state, shut down, and then reopened for about six months as Sweetwater Station. And Sweetwater Station was straight, but gay-tolerant. I mean, you went in there, you could dance with another guy, and nobody said anything, you just didn't, yeah, you didn't make it… Toby Jenkins: This would have been what year? David Dees: 77, 76, probably, somewhere around that. Toby Jenkins: David, we were talking a little bit about some of the early gay clubs, and this would have been in the mid-'70s, late-'70s, and you would have still been just a young man, possibly sneaking into these clubs, because you may have been underage. During this time, if I remember correctly, all clubs were private clubs, and you had to have a membership to be present, and you had to bring your own liquor, didn't you? Were they? 10 �David Dees: That's how you're supposed to, yes. The way it worked was you had a membership to the club, they'd say, what's your name? You gave them your name, what's your liquor? Crown Royal. So, what they would do was, when they bought Crown Royal, they put your name on the bottle, so everybody's, every bottle up there had a name, but you'd walk up to the bar and you ordered what you want, bourbon and coke, Jack and, you know. Toby Jenkins: So, the experience was similar to what it was, but this was how we got around and said we didn't have liquor by the drink in Oklahoma. David Dees: Correct, correct. Now, yes, very similar to today, but very different from today, because of the police harassment back when Chief Jack Purdy was in, in office, the TPD, they would come through the bars, you know, to check compliance. I remember they would walk through Zippers, and they carried these batons, metal batons, and they'd knock ceiling towels out of the ceiling, like looking for drugs, walk by. I remember one night, they walked by the water fountain that sat between the men's and women's restroom and knocked it over, looking for drugs. They were destructive. They'd knock tables over walking through the bar. It was crazy, it was the craziest stuff you ever saw. Back when the bars were downtown, jaywalking tickets all the time for crossing the street in the middle of the street. Toby Jenkins: They would sit parked outside. David Dees: Oh, absolutely, outside of the gay bar, well, outside the Queen of Hearts at 10th and Main, John Smith, you know, got a ticket for jaywalking. So, they made a point to put your name in the paper, you know, where you were jaywalking and where you were jaywalking at. You know, and of course, it was only at the bars, the gay bars downtown. It wasn't like they were doing it over at, you know, the Mayo Hotel. Toby Jenkins: So, you were working your day job, and you were living independent as a young adult, had your own place. Relationship with your family was still warm and friendly? David Dees: You know, that's kind of a weird thing, too. My family did find out right after I had moved out from home, my brother accidentally outed me because, you know, my brother was one of these kids that I'm, you know, go up to my mom and say, hey, can I borrow the car, where are you going? Well, I'm gonna drive by the gay bar and yell the queers in the bags, you know, and my mom'd be, boys will be boys. So, of course, he's doing that one night, and like I said, I mean, you got used to being chased in the bar by people that wanted to hurt you or do something to you. I mean, I'd had people chase me once with a tire chain from 35th and Winston, running in, get in the parking lot. High school kids usually is what it was, or other high school kids or young adults. Tire chain once, a tire iron that you used to loosen your lug nuts with. That sort of thing. So I remember, it was on a Sunday, because I was going in for the beer bust, and I'm walking in the front door, and just as I pulled the door open, I heard, queer faggot, and I turned around, I don't know what it was, it was just that night, it just hit me, and I'm like, I'll fucking kill you. I'll turn around, I'll go after somebody tonight. You've just caught me right in the right mood. And I bowed up and turned around, I was getting ready to go, and I'm like, oh shit, that's my brother. 11 �And it's my brother driving by 33rd Street towards the Get and Go [convenience store] in my mom's Pontiac. She had this Catalina, so it was a whale of a car. And he's driving by, and he's like, like that, and I'm like, oh shit. And I just went on in, and about that time, I heard chomp, and he jumped the curb, and had grazed the parking lot light at the Get and Go at my mom's car. And I look at it, and I'm like, shit, he's fine. I just went on in the bar, I wasn't gonna deal with it. My younger brother, he's six years younger than me. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so he saw that, and then he told your family. David Dees: Oh yeah, of course, he went home. My mom's like, what happened to my car? Well, I was driving by the queer bar, yelling at the queers, and I saw David going in. And of course, my mom's like, well, why would David be going into a gay bar? And my brother immediately tells mom, well, maybe he likes the music, you know? And so nothing's said for probably about three or four months, okay? And then I remember one night, my mom walked up to me, and she's like, I wanna ask you a question. I'm like, okay. And she's like, are you gay? And I just went flush. I mean, I'm like, shit. And I looked at her, and very tactfully, I said, mom, I want you to think about the question you're asking. And if in your heart, you don't wanna know the answer, don't ask the question, because I've never lied to you, and I'm not gonna lie to you. So she's like, are you gay? Mom, again, I'm gonna tell you, if you don't wanna know the answer to this, don't ask the question. And so she asked me a third time, and I'm like, okay, yeah, I am. And then, of course, immediately, she kind of went into the spiel, like it goes against everything I know. It goes against what religion has taught me. And God, it was such a detailed conversation. I mean, she's really calm about it, but she's like, I don't understand it, and I worry about what kind of life will you have? Will people be mean to you because of it? What if somebody hurts you? She just had all these questions and these fears. And I said, mom, I assure you, I'm comfortable with who I am. I've navigated this water for a while, and I'm okay. Don't worry about what kind of life I'll have, or if I'm happy, or if anything, because I'm okay. And I said, I'm smart enough to know how to protect myself. I know where I'm safe. I know where I'm not safe. I'll be fine. And then her final question, and I made her cry on this, because she stopped and she looked at me and she goes, so, and she was dead serious too. So, when you go out at night, do you put on a pink dress and pink high heels? And I looked at her and I said, where in the fuck did you come up with that? I said, that's the stupidest shit anybody has ever said to me. Where did you come up with that? Then of course, immediately she burst into tears, because it took me a minute to realize that's just all she knew. It's what she had been told, or what she'd been taught, or what she knew about it. So, she wanted to learn, you know, and she told me, she said, I don't understand it, I don't like it, you know, and I'm worried that, you know, you might not get into heaven or something like that. You know, and I said, mom, I'll be honest with you. I said, you know, I've got my relationship with my higher power, and I said, I'm sure when my day comes, we'll sit at a table, we'll have a discussion. I said, I'm sure I'm gonna get passed on through, so, you know, don't worry about that. And. Toby Jenkins: Was your relationship strained after that, or… 12 �David Dees: Not with her, but it was like a couple of months later, you know, I'd gone over to the house, and, you know, I'd go over and help my dad tinker on carburetors on the car, stuff like that. We'd work on a lawnmower, work on my motorcycle, something. And I'd gone over there one Saturday morning, it was a couple months after my mom had found out, and my dad was odd, I mean, I'm just like, hmm. You know, he's got a burr up him, but I don't know what it is. And so we were going to an auto parts store to get a part, and I remember, we're sitting in the car, and we're going north on Sheridan, I think Guy Hinshaw's had a store at Admiral and Memorial or something at one time, years ago. And so that's really dating me, I know. So we're going to this thing, and I remember, my dad's not saying anything, he's just staring straight ahead, and I look over, and the first thing I'm seeing is, I'm like, and his knuckles, he's had the steering wheel so tight, his knuckles were white. And I'm like, okay, this isn't good. And I didn't say anything, and we're sitting there, and we almost get to where we're going, and out of the blue, and I mean, man, I don't think I'll ever forget the tone of his voice, because it absolutely set the relationship that I had with him after that. He was just like, and staring straight ahead, so tell me about this fag shit. And I remember thinking, uh-oh. And I was like, we're only going 35 mile an hour, if I open the door and I roll, how they taught you in school, tuck, drop, and roll, I won't get hurt that bad. And then, again, I don't know what came over me, I thought, you know what, screw this, I'm just not gonna deal with it. And I just looked at him and said, what the hell do you wanna know about it? And then, oh God, that set him off. He's like, you're not my kid, I regret the day you were born, never wanted to see you again, don't fucking ever come to my house again, I mean, just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and I'm like, okay, and I got back, we got back to the house, and I got on my bike and I left. Well, it was about a couple of weeks later, my mom calls me up, and she's like, where have you been, you haven't been over here the last few weeks, where have you been? And I said, well, here's the deal, Mom, you know, if we wanna hang out or you wanna see me, you need to either come to my house or we'll go somewhere. I said, because Dad's made it very clear that he doesn't ever wanna see me again, I'm not welcome in his house. And my mom paused for a second and she said, I'm having dinner, dinner will be ready at 7.30, be at the front door, and I said, no, you don't understand. You know, Dad's told me not to come back to the house, I'm not coming back to the house. And she repeated herself again, she said, dinner will be on the table at 7:30, be at the door, and I'm, yes, ma'am. So I did, I showed up at the house, knocked on the door, and she came, and we lived at this house at 35th and Joplin, so it sits up on a hill, has a long sidewalk to it. And I walked up to that thing, walk up to the door, knocked on the door, and she opened the door, and she goes, oh, hold on just a second. And she went and she pushed the door closed, but then it came back open about that far. And so I'm standing there at the door, and God dang, and now this is what solidified my relationship with my mother, okay? I mean, my dad already did what he did that, you know, set the tone for future things with him. But my mom, you know, you gotta 13 �remember too, my mom was June Cleaver from Leave It to Beaver. You know, hair in place, white pearls, always a pretty tote and fetch housewife. Honey, I'm home, get me my beer. Okay, dear, here's the paper. I mean, she just, that was my mom. She was just a product of that era, you know? So I never heard her raise her voice to my dad. She never nothing. And the only way I know to describe this is probably pure, raw anger, maybe a little bit of hatred, I don't know it was. It was just so raw. But I heard her scream at my dad. At the top of her voice she's like: this is half my house, he's my son and as long as I live here he'll always be welcome here. And I turned, I walked off, I was, I was like hell, no, I ain't going in there. And I just walked down the sidewalk. It spooked the shit out of me and I'm going down, I'm getting in my car, I'm almost at my car in the street, getting in my car and my mom, holler, she said: where are you going? And I just stopped. And I did. I just didn't know what to do. I absolutely did not know what to do and I just kind of looked at her and there she goes, I'm fixing to put dinner on the table, come on. And I stood there for a second. She said. I said, come on. I said yes, ma'am, you know. And I walked up the stairs and went into the door and, man, I didn't know what I was gonna see. Honestly, it was like I think, maybe I felt like I was gonna see the silence of the land, slaughter or something. I just don't know what I thought and I walked into the table- my dad's sitting at the table, my brother and my sister is sitting at the table and of course my mom's got her apron on and she goes, have a seat, I'm fixing to serve dinner and nobody looked up. Everybody was just looking down at the table. I mean that's the most uncomfortable dinner I've ever had in my life, but you know, it was, it was really weird. After that, with my dad, it was over. My dad tried to pretend that it just never happened. Okay, the stuff, the stuff that he said you just you never forget. I mean, you know. But it taught me a very powerful lesson: you never say anything in anger, because once you've spoken words, you can't take them back. And I never forgot anything that he said. You know I'll never forget him saying: I regret the day you were born. You know, I wish I'd never had you. You're not my child. I mean that ride home, I mean it was just like duck, I'm just a boom, boom, boom. And I just sat there, you know, and just you know. And I finally told him: dude, I remember telling. I said you know what, dad, you have the right to feel the way you feel, and I understand it and I respect that and if that's how you feel, so be it. You know it is what it is, you know, and that was the last thing I really said to him, you know. And then of course, the deal happened, you know, with my mom doing what she did that night. So my mom honestly, truly taught me what the definition of unconditional love is: absolutely 100% compassion, unconditional love, all of it. You know. Now my dad, on the other hand, just tried to pretend like it had never happened. And you know it, it never…. I don’t know, maybe I made peace with it. I don't know that I ever made peace with him. I just never brought it up with it again. But my relationship with him was never the same. Now, in his final years, when he did get finally and really super poor health- and I knew it was to the point that my mom just could no longer deal with it- I did move back to where they were living to help her with him, you know. 14 �And then, of course, he lived about two weeks afterwards his health had deteriorated pretty bad and he would be like, you know, I wish you'd move out here, I wish you'd come out here and I just, you know, I never, I was never gonna be a dick to him or disrespectful to him, but I just, absolutely I think…I don't know if I was just hurt or if I had just lost respect for the man, in all honesty. Toby Jenkins: That was powerful. Very painful for you to talk about it, but now, you probably over the years, you have interacted with people who have… David Dees: It absolutely shaped me. It reminds me of something that happened at Majestic. Golly, I bet we hadn't been open three or four years. And I remember this kid come, and I call him kid, I don't mean it to be insulting, but I mean, to me, especially being almost 70, I mean, an 18, 19, 20 year old is a kid to me, you know? And I remember this little boy came running up to me and he said, he goes, David, one of my friends is crying, you know, on the porch, something's happened. Can you go help him? And I'm like, oh God, you know? Cause I didn't, at that point, I didn't know what happened. Somebody beat this kid up, somebody do something to him, what's happened? So, you know, I came down the stairs, you know, and this kid's following me. The next thing you know, there's a couple of kids, you know, boys and girls following me. And I, as I get to the front door, I hear this kid sobbing. And I mean, the minute I heard the sob, I'm like, okay, this is a broken heart cry. I mean, I knew what it was, you know? So, I walk out here and it's this young boy, and I bet he's probably 19 or 20. I know he wasn't drinking age, he couldn't have been drinking age. And he's sitting on that park bench we had at the front door and he's just crying. And I'm like, okay, buddy, tell me what's going on that is so terrible that you sound like you've lost your best friend. I said, what's going on? You know, and he's like, my... b-boyf-... boyfriend just broke up with me. And of course, he's blowing snot bubbles and everything, you know? And I just chuckle, I'm like, oh God, your first love. Okay, it makes sense, you know? And so, you know, I just kind of looked at him and I said, okay, tell me a little bit about what's going on here. You know, how long have you known this guy? Th-... three months. I'm like, okay, how long y'all been, how long y'all been together again? Th-th-th-th-th-three months. I'm like, okay, and you're how old? N-n-nineteen, I think he said he was nineteen, because I remember saying, okay, to make that math easy for me, let's just say you're 20. So let's see, if you're 10 years old, that's 3,600 days. So if you're 20 years old, that's 7,200 days, you know, that you've lived life. You know, of course, this kid's just kind of looking at me. And I said, so what happened? He was like, he c-c-c-ccheated on me. And I said, okay, is it the first time? Th-... three times. And I said, so you've been together 90 days out of the 7,200 days you've been alive. You've been with somebody 90 days, and he's cheated on you three times in 90 days out of the 7,000 days you've been alive. Yes. And I said, I just looked at him, I said, do you think you deserve that? You know, is that what you think you deserve? And he's like, no. And I said, you know, I wish I could tell you that in a perfect world, this never happens, I said. But the reality is, you're probably gonna go on to love multiple people, and you're probably going to, I hope it doesn't happen, but you're 15 �probably going to go through several relationship breakups. I mean, it's gonna happen. I said, I'm glad you found out in 90 days out of the 7,000 days you've been alive, rather than go through a long time with somebody to find out that they've been doing things like this to you for a long time. I said, the reality is, you're gonna be okay. You know, pick yourself up. You've got friends in here. They're scared to death, they're worried about you. And of course, a couple people are peeking around that wall looking, you know. And I said, you know, they're worried about you. You'll be fine, you know. You're gonna go on, things will happen, you'll be fine. I promise you, you'll be fine. You know, blow your nose, go back inside, and have fun with your friends, I said. But most importantly, know what you are worth. And know that, you know what, if somebody that you've known in that short a period of time can admit that kind of feeling and make you feel that horrible, go, know what you're worth, because you're worth more than that. Toby Jenkins: Wow, powerful. David Dees: Majestic to me has always kind of been like a little ministry, because I mean, and I've described it as that. That's exactly what it was to me. Toby Jenkins: Absolutely. David Dees: And maybe that's been the key to its longevity. Toby Jenkins: So, all of this is very good insight into what our community's like. You mentioned that your brother would call you these names and you were going to these gay bars. David Dees: There's an interesting story on that. My brother was so horrified by what, because he never intended that to happen. He just honestly answered a question to my mother, you know. And then, of course, shortly after that, he moved to Dallas and it was, let's see, my dad died in 84 that my mom was killed in a car wreck a year later. My dad died at Thanksgiving of 84. My mom got killed at Christmas of 85 and let's see. So Jim graduated- well, he was graduated from college when my mom got killed because she was going to his college graduation. I should have been in the car with her. I had gone to a Christmas party the night before and was hungover and didn't make it. So he, once he graduates, he goes to Dallas. So I guess it was seven, seven or eight years later he called me. He's like: I'm coming to town, let's hang, let's hang out. And I said, well, you know, I'm going out with some friends Friday night. You know, if you want to, you you can go with me. I'm going to Zippers. Yes, because it's before Zippers is closed. So I guess it's several years later, actually a couple years later, because Zippers closed, I think in 88, somewhere around there- and Jim was like: okay, and I told him I'm like: don't be an ass if you, if you're going, if, because you know I was, I was in a long-term relationship during that period from 76 to about 83 or 4, you know, and Jim knew about it. He always kind of made jokes about like where's your wife, or you know where's the other woman had, or the little woman, or so you know, he just made comments like that. And so I said something to him about, don't be an ass. You know, I'm gonna be out with some friends. If you want to come hang out- you truly want to hang out, like you 16 �say you do- then let's go. So we're in Zippers and it was busy- and we're standing by the dance floor. You know that long dance floor. So we're between the restroom and the dance floor staring at the DJ booth and a guy walked by and Jim goes- he's cute, and I bit my tongue because I'm like man, I'm gonna knock the hell out of you, because I thought I wasn't sure if he's mocking me or or just being an ass or what you know, and I don't say anything. And then, probably about another 15 or 20 minutes he's like he's hot, and again I'm just, I'm holding my composure, and then all of a sudden he just takes off and I'm like good, I don't have to deal with you. And about 30 minutes later he shows back up. He's like, I got his phone number and I went, whoa, whoa, whoa, dude, what the hell's going on here? I am confused. I'm like, have you switched teams or what? You batting with us? Yes, yeah. And so I looked at him. I said: you know, are you, are you jacking with me, are you serious? He goes: no, I'm serious, and I said so, when did this happen? And he said, he said he always knew, which is why he was driving by Zippers when he saw me going in. But he said my dad's reaction was so adverse that he was afraid to come out and that's why he snuck off and went to Dallas and had been out living in Dallas. Toby Jenkins: So your mother would have died. David Dees: They never knew. Toby Jenkins: So your parents… David Dees: My parents never knew about him. Now I remember my dad, you know, which goes back to the story. My dad would try- well, you know. Well, let's, I'm gonna work on the lawnmower today. Why don't you come by? And I just at this point wanted nothing to do with him. I mean, you know, I was like I already know who you are. I'll probably never forgive you for all of that. And I remember…One day, you know he said something he's like: well, you know you, just you don't come over, you don't hang out anymore. And I, I just lost it on him and I remember looking, I said you know what you, you and I, our dates are done, I'm done, I'm out of here. You know I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not your buddy, your pal anymore. I said: but I tell you what, you want to play daddy to somebody. You've got a kid in there, a young, a young son in there. I suggest you be a man, you play daddy to him, you know, and that's. I walked off from my dad. That was probably really one of the last few things I really said to my dad a lot as far as anything else. I would acknowledge him. I'd say hi, but that was really the last really hard conversation. And he did, he stepped up to the bat for my brother, you know, and became a good dad to my brother. But my brother was so horrified by what had happened that he was afraid to come out. Toby Jenkins: So I wanted to ask you, you have the recollection of them calling us queer and faggot and saying horrible things. Some of the stuff your dad said. What are your feelings about, we've asked this in interviews, how we use phrases today that are painful to us of a certain age, but yet people want us to use those phrases to identify our community? David Dees: I don't like the words, and for the most part, I won't use the words. 17 �Toby Jenkins: The words? David Dees: Fag, queer, you know, sissy, just a lot of them. That being said, I have learned to respect the fact that maybe you will use it, or you don't like to use it. And that's probably an age thing, like I said, I've gotten to the point where I respect the fact that I don't have to like it, I don't have to agree with it, but that's your choice to do. It's not being used out of malice. So I guess it's just a word. It's only got the power that you give it. I mean, let a non-alphabet soup person use the word. I wouldn't say let a non-gay person, but I mean, trans people I think could say it. They're entitled to use it, gay people, lesbian. There's a lot of the definitions maybe that I don't really quite understand because they didn't exist when I was growing up. But if you're in any part of the community, then I feel like it's your choice if you want to use it and you're okay with it, because maybe it does mean something different to you than it does to me. Toby Jenkins: Is it painful to you if somebody calls you queer? David Dees: I don't like it. Toby Jenkins: Does it bring back some of those emotions where you experienced verbal harassment? David Dees: Oh, it'll piss me off. Because to me, it's a derogatory thing. I mean, I depict it like I said, the N-word. I mean, it can be a very powerful derogatory term. And again, I grew up in that era. I remember even for black people, I remember what it was like for them. I saw it firsthand. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so we have you as a young adult. We've talked a little bit about this, and I just want to…when did you make the transition when you began to work for the clubs? And that became... David Dees: Early 20s. I was in my early 20s. Toby Jenkins: And so it has been a lifetime career, right? David Dees: Pretty much, yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so that would have... Tell me about your first job in a gay bar or a club. David Dees: That would have been in Zippers. Yeah, it would have been in Zippers. Toby Jenkins: Really? David Dees: Yeah, absolutely. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been what year? David Dees: 84, 85. Toby Jenkins: Work you a bartender or… David Dees: Really technical-minded. I mean, I loved electronics, all this stuff. So I learned the lighting system. I could go in and rebuild those lighting controllers and 18 �those drivers. Back then, everything was all mechanical parts, transistors, Triax, just different electrical parts. So something crapped out, you had to chase it down, troubleshoot it down, solder it back, rebuild it. When the lighting fixtures died, changed transformers in them, I just learned how to... The electrical end of it, and knew it, like the back of my hand was very good at it, picked up on it real quick. John Willis was a genius, and he was just a big old geeky nerd. I mean, he was a nerd, and a hi-fi nerd. He went on to own the Gramophone back in the day, which was a big major high-end hi-fi shop. The sound that was in that club, there's a really storied history on that club. I mean, when Kravis had that built, Richard Long and Associates out of New York, designed and built it. The cabinets were custom made for that room. Toby Jenkins: What club? David Dees: Zippers. Toby Jenkins: Kravis had..George Kravis? Dennis Neill: Yeah, and wasn't it the same team that did Studio 54 in New York? David Dees: Yes, yes. Sound Garage, was it Sound Garage? Or what was the name of that? Something Garage, [Paradise Garage] but yes, the Palladium. Yes, that was the company that built the sound systems for these big clubs. And as a matter of fact, was it, there's a hi-fi magazine, a nationwide hi-fi magazine at the time, that did an article about Zippers, talking about how Richard Long and Associates out of New York had designed this sound system and how it was the most powerful sound system west of the Mississippi. Dennis Neill: That's one reason I'm wearing hearing aids. David Dees: Oh, it was an incredible, you know, for a long time, I actually had part of that sound system too. I still have the lighting controllers that came out of that room. Toby Jenkins: So, you were the lighting and sound tech, or were you the DJ? David Dees: Yes, lighting and sound tech. I didn't learn to DJ until 88, 89, when Jeff Lunsford had turned that bar into Sterling's after John closed Zippers. Toby Jenkins: Real quickly, Crash Landing did you ever DJ at Crash Landing? David Dees: No, Crash Landing was over about, oh Lord, Lewis. So, 3rd and Lewis's Warehouse Market, there's a cul-de-sac about 4th and Lewis. So, Crash Landing was on the north side of the cul-de-sac, the church was on the south side. Toby Jenkins: Okay. David Dees: But no, Crash Landing was a competitor to Zippers. Toby Jenkins: Okay, would have been open about the same time. David Dees: Yes, I think Crash Landing maybe only lasted what, a year, two years, maybe. It wasn't a very long-lived club. 19 �Toby Jenkins: This was, you say, around 1984? David Dees: 85, 86, somewhere around there. Toby Jenkins: You would have been 22, by then 23, something like that. David Dees: Oh, I gotta do the math. So, 58, yes, yes, I would have been in my mid20s. Toby Jenkins: So, your first job working, that was your full-time job, what you did. David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And you mentioned you were in a relationship. So, you would have been upfront and personal to see what was happening in the community. David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember this organization, which in those days… David Dees: Yes, that's what I was fixing to say. It was TOHR that had the helpline back in John Willis' office. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, which was at Zippers? David Dees: Correct. John had a line back in his office, and it only operated a few hours, on Friday and Saturday night, like seven to nine or something like that. But it was a phone number that you could call. They would tell you where the bars were at, where there were resources for us, if you needed help. I mean, it was literally the lifeline, the beginning of a lifeline for the community. Toby Jenkins: And so, you were aware that there were other people beginning to organize to address… Speaker 3: Yes. Well, and it seems like, when did we do the first Pride at Mohawk Park? I could swear that that went on back, maybe in the late 70s, but I can't remember if it was late 70s or early 80s, because, okay, the first Pride I remember at Mohawk Park, Zippers had a part in it. I think the Toolbox had a part in it. Was it Toolbox, or was it Tracy's New Edition back then, even? Toby Jenkins: And these would have just been picnics in the park? David Dees: Yes, yeah, yeah. And Coors came out and would have the beer tent. They would supply the beer for us. So, the bar owners would buy hamburgers, hot dogs, and supply the fixings. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and then the organization took over the Pride events in 1882. Dennis Neill: Actually, the organization did the first Pride in Chandler Park in 1982, yeah. And we did a few, but then, you're correct, then it morphed into more of the bars taking over Pride for a number of years. David Dees: Well, now this, we were doing this, I think, since like in the 70s, I remember this. 20 �Toby Jenkins: This is important. I've had individuals talk about there were some picnics before the organization had to take it over. David Dees: Yes, yes. Toby Jenkins: Now, it would be helpful if eventually we can get enough people to give us the details. David Dees: Well, you know what? I do think, after TOHR, because like I said, TOHR didn't exist in the beginning, and then they did exist with Zippers. So, TOHR may have taken over Pride later on. But yes, the first couple ones that I remember were in Mohawk Park, and way at the very back of the park. I think that area's even closed down now. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. I feel like it's real important that while some of you guys are still alive, we need to find somebody who has some documentation. David Dees: Tim Turner should have some information. Toby Jenkins: I keep hearing that there were some Pride picnics, and I know when this organization had, because they've got the receipts to prove it when they had to take over. And it developed, because I know, I saw the records from 1982 where they estimated they had about 400 at Chandler Park. David Dees: Yes. There's a lot of people. Toby Jenkins: So, okay. So, there was that. And this organization, and Dennis and his collaborators felt like they needed to organize to take care of the community. David Dees: Before TOHR, did it have a different name, or was it TOHR, then it became OHR? Dennis Neill: Other way around. David Dees: It was OHR, and then you did a branch of TOHR. Dennis Neill: Correct. David Dees: Okay, all right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So, about this same period, David, how many gay bars and clubs were there in Tulsa? David Dees: Oh, Lord. Toby Jenkins: Let's say about 1984. David Dees: I'm gonna say 12. Toby Jenkins: Okay. David Dees: Probably, because they were scattered all over town. Toby Jenkins: Were places like Zippers, were those gender inclusive? Were there men and women in there together, lesbian couples, male couples? 21 �David Dees: You know, Zippers was. Toby Jenkins: Okay, was there… David Dees: While it was, I'm gonna say it was probably a third women and two thirds men, but Zippers was very… Toby Jenkins: And you would have had drag queen entertainment? David Dees: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: Okay. David Dees: As a matter of fact, there's an interesting story about that. We had a drag queen in the 80s. It was back when Safeway stores were around, and Safeway stores, there were several of them that were getting robbed, like armed robbery, okay? And they were looking for this beautiful blonde chick. And of course, when the Tulsa Police Department posts her picture, the gay community's like, huh, that's KC Starr, the drag queen. I kid you not, for six months, TPD thought they were looking for a black woman, or a blonde woman, sorry, before they finally figured out they were looking for a drag queen and popped her. Toby Jenkins: And did arrest her? David Dees: Oh yeah, oh yeah, they got her. Toby Jenkins: So it's 1984, there were people beginning to organize outside of just the private gay clubs. When did you hear about AIDS? David Dees: See, this is gonna be a really interesting story because it was such, it was a different time. I mean, today we've got the internet, we've got all this information. You know, back then, the internet, I don't even think when AIDS first, yeah, the internet was probably a thing, but most people didn't know about it. You know, there were bulletin boards and that sort of thing set up, like for colleges where people get information and stuff. But probably about the time, late 80s, early 90s, when AOL became a thing. With AOL coming around, that's when chat rooms were forming. And so as AIDS became more and more talked about and we knew what it was, you know, the gay plague first and the gay cancer and all this stuff, and then all of a sudden you see that it's kind of spreading in other areas. But there were chat rooms out there because I remember having a friend that was HIV positive and finally passed away in 95. But in the early 90s, I would get online and I would search through all these bulletin board rooms out there that had people living with AIDS and survivors because I kept thinking, okay, what are people doing that's working? What are people doing that's not working? You know, because I was desperate to find anything for this friend of mine. You know, like, oh, I make dandelion milk or I do this. You know, so I'm like, well, dandelions supposedly aren't good for you, but how many people are talking about doing this and how many people, you know, are doing whatever? And, you know, now we know that there's so many different strains of it, but then you didn't know that. So really what you were looking at is the people that are living, what are they doing? You know, maybe that's what's keeping them alive. Toby Jenkins: But before the internet, you would have began to hear, talked about. 22 �David Dees: You heard it on the news. That was really all you heard about. Toby Jenkins: You weren't talking about it in the clubs. David Dees: Nobody knew, really knew what it was. I mean, well, okay, when HIV first started, I was in that relationship, okay? That was about the time. So I missed probably the first four or five years of it. You know, because I was in a monotonous relationship. Then I come out and of course, you know, I'm missing friends that I had from 10 years ago, but that wasn't a big deal because everybody left Tulsa then. You went to Dallas, you went to Denver, you went to San Francisco, you went to New York, you went to Atlanta. Everybody left Tulsa, you know? So it wasn't uncommon to all of a sudden, you know, Bob was here, Bob's not here. So you just, you didn't really think about it. I tell you what was the, what really made it hit home for me was, and I think Sharon was the one that got that information for me, was I remembered, I found an old VHS tape that I'd made of the Oklahoma Quilt when it got brought to Tulsa in 92 or 93, I guess is when it was. Dennis Neill: 90 was the first, 1990 was the first. David Dees: Yes, I got it the second time. Toby Jenkins: Here was the first time it was on display, it was 1990? David Dees: Yes, at the Cox Convention Center, Civic Center. So I went through with the videotape, because as a matter of fact, I just put that on Facebook not too long ago, that video that I had transcribed, because I think I sent you a link to it or something, you'd asked me about that so y'all could have that for the record. So that, man, I'll never forget going in there and it's such a huge room and what felt like were thousands of panels to me. I mean, because they were in great big squares, you know, like what, 50 foot by 50 foot or more, maybe they're 100 by 100 foot squares, you know, with all these panels in a big square. I mean, it was just huge and there were, it felt like hundreds of them, of those big squares in there. And you're walking through and you're looking at this thing and you're like, holy shit, so that's what happened to Bob. Oh my God, there's John. Oh my God, there's Terry. I mean, it was just, it was fucking nuts. I mean, back then, cell phones didn't exist. If you called somebody long distance, long distance was expensive, so you just lost track of people, you know? And it wasn't like you had a way, you didn't even know where somebody moved and if they moved, how do you know where they moved to and how do you get their phone number? And, you know, and then God forbid, it's a dollar a minute to call somebody and talk to them. Toby Jenkins: During this time, so chronologically, I'm gonna ask this. So you're working at Zippers…. David Dees: By then, I was, let's see, Sterling's, Sterling's and then after that was Deep Elm at 61st and Memorial, which was the old Palladium. Lord, and then after that, I did go spend three or four years in a straight club. I wound up, Steve Kitchell owned the Palladium that was at Eaton Square at 61st and Memorial. Well, then 23 �Cindy Robson, who is part of the Robson family, had RCB Bank at the time, back in the day and was married or somehow part of Walmart heir. She opened that bar and called it Deep Elm for a while. Well, she wound up losing it, and that's when Steve Kitchell took me and put me in the Ocean Club, and I spent four years in the Ocean Club. Toby Jenkins: As a DJ? David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: DJ and lighting. Lighting and sound? David Dees: Yes. So for four years, I was kind of out of the gay bar. Toby Jenkins: And then you went from that to David Dees: Concessions. Toby Jenkins: Concessions. David Dees: Correct. Toby Jenkins: And then you went from concessions to... David Dees: To the Silver Star. Toby Jenkins: Silver Star. And then Silver Star, you opened Majestic. David Dees: Majestic. Yeah, 23 years ago. Toby Jenkins: So I just wanted to get all that on the record. During that time, back to HIV-AIDS, did y'all begin to see the community organize and do fundraisers? David Dees: Yes. But I didn't get to be a lot of part of that because I was working at Ocean Club. But that reminds me, there was the boxer, Tommy Morrison. Toby Jenkins: Yes. David Dees: Who contracted HIV. And he was a big player at the Ocean Club. So when that happened... Toby Jenkins: He was an Oklahoma player. David Dees: Yes. That sent... Toby Jenkins: A title holder. David Dees: That sent ripples through the straight community. I mean, when I say ripples, I'm talking like six foot waves. I mean, it was insane. Toby Jenkins: And you were working in a straight club. David Dees: Yes. Yes. And I remember the wave of panic that started going through that bar. Toby Jenkins: When it began to hit what we thought was... 24 �David Dees: All of a sudden, it's in the straight community. Toby Jenkins: Heterosexual community. Yes. David Dees: Yes. David Dees: So then, by that time, when was it that I left? I left OC in 95. So in 95 is when I'm back in our community. Because it's like I told Steve. I said, man, I've been out of my element four years. I appreciate everything that I got to do. And I've lived a dream here. But I'm a fish out of water. And I needed to be back in my element. So then I stepped back into the world where all of a sudden, we're doing all these drag benefits for people that are dying. And as a matter of fact, it's really funny too. The first benefit that Majestic did right after we opened was a drag show benefit to raise money for a headstone for Caitlin Kane, Chad Burrell. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. I remember it. David Dees: Because his family wouldn't put a headstone up. And all of his friends were so distraught over that that they came to me and they said, can we do something and get a headstone? I'm like, yeah, we'll raise some money. And we raised it and we had it made. And his friends had input on what they wanted in it. And we had it placed on his grave. It's still out there. Toby Jenkins: So anything else about how AIDS impacted the community and the fundraising efforts that were going on in the clubs and things like that? David Dees: God, they were just constant. You had like, what, Red Ribbon Review. You had, I mean, everybody was doing it. It seemed like we had food pantries, I think. TOHR, I think, did a lot of stuff. Y'all had a food bank, I think, at one time that we would raise and donate canned goods for and stuff. Catholic Charities. Toby Jenkins: So you had the clubs. When do you remember the Tulsa County Health Department and the HIV testing that began to happen in the clubs? David Dees: I remember that happening with us. I don't think that that was really being done before us because I remember... Toby Jenkins: But what club do you first remember there were people there to do testing? David Dees: Okay, TOHR did STD testing for, like, syphilis and gonorrhea. Did we even have HIV tests for a long time? Dennis Neill: Well, what we did, many of us that were doing the STD testing, then we got certified with the Health Department to do HIV testing. But we did that at the OSU Clinic on Southwest Boulevard. David Dees: That's correct. You are right. You're right. I do remember that now. Dennis Neill: We did not do HIV testing in the bars. David Dees: Yeah. Yeah, we first started doing that... Toby Jenkins: TOHR didn't. 25 �David Dees: No, nobody did. Nobody did. Dennis Neill: Not that I'm aware of. David Dees: No one did. Toby Jenkins: Well when, because when I first came out that was the first thing I was told. David Dees: I think I remember we being the first ones to do. Toby Jenkins: At Star? David Dees: No, at Majestic. Toby Jenkins: No. I first met you, you were the DJ. I was at the Star. David Dees: We did not do HIV testing at the Star. Absolutely did not. Toby Jenkins: Yeah you did. Because the first time I ever walked in a gay bar I saw a table and they said what are they doing they said they're doing HIV testing and that would have been in the late 90s. David Dees: I don't remember that at all. Not at the Star. Absolutely no. Dennis Neill: Well that that could be because you know Hope testing by then was doing mobile testing and I remember going to Renegades and they were testing at Renegades and that would have been in the late, after we spun off Hope. I don't know if we did testing in the bars while Hope was part of OHR. Toby Jenkins: Well I may have it all blurred in my mind. David Dees: Yeah, the Star never did. No, I think they would do a few fundraise drag shows kind of things but no. Toby Jenkins: Okay, the reason I'm saying that is because first time I ever went into a club and you know participated in it was at the Silver Star and in my mind you know maybe Concessions I don't know. I can remember somewhere in a club I asked what that was during that period and my thought is I want to get tested but what if I find out I test positive and I'm here in a club I don't really want that all out here I want to do that privately so I went to Tulsa County Health Department to be tested. David Dees: You know we would set up a little spot upstairs that we curtained off. Toby Jenkins: Definitely at Majestic. Yes. From the day it opened it was serving the community. Because I came to you and said I need to register voters. David Dees: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: You set me up, you gave me my own little space. And we registered about 6,000 people through Majestic in a four-month period. I mean I, we would, David and them would line them up just like cattle chutes. Run them up. You had to be registered. This is when we were fighting over marriage equality and George 26 �Bush had said he was going to put the constitutional amendment. So that would have been you know 2003, 2004. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. David Dees: It took a lot of heat for doing HIV testing in the bar from a lot of people. Toby Jenkins: Oh really? David Dees: Oh absolutely. They're like well God what a downer, what are you going to do if this happens? I said you know we've got things in place but but here's the here's the deal and what I would do you know they would be set up and people would just be staring. So what I figured I had to do every time and for the longest time I did do was when they'd come and set up and we'd get people in there I'd go in and get tested and then as soon as I did it you'd have three or four other people do it. Toby Jenkins: So nobody wanted to be the first person to get tested. At this point our community didn't sometimes want to face the reality. David Dees: No absolutely not. Toby Jenkins: They didn't want to face their own mortality. They also didn't want to they didn't want to really be involved in fighting for their own liberation because those kind of things were dull and a downer and and you know I can remember trying to register people to vote and them just cussing me out. Why are you bothering this dude? I'm trying to get my buzz on you know they would get mad. David Dees: I'll say this about our community. Our community can be very interesting. I've said many times that it never ceases to amaze me. The people that scream the loudest about discrimination are oftentimes the worst about doing it and you know I've been it's been said to me many times about what are straight people doing in Majestic? Well this is a man's bar you know I've heard this stuff for years. I remember the Silver Star back in the days when we were also still half country half punk because it started out as country okay and I remember the women lined up along one wall and the men on the other side of the building just glaring at each other across the thing because the men hated that I would play waltzes because the women would waltz and they were too slow and they wanted to two-step and the women hated it because the men would two-step and slam into them. Toby Jenkins: Interesting. I just knew I loved it, it's beautiful. David Dees: Yeah, and the Silver Star really, again, was something that shaped me, that I thought, okay, if I ever get my own room, this is how it will operate. This is what I will tolerate, this is what I will not tolerate. And I've always run that room that way. Toby Jenkins: We've talked a little bit about the violence and the attacks and people being threatened and people being accosted. Do you have any recollection of, like, we've talked about people calling you names and the police harassing you. Do you have recollections of acts of violence? And I wanna lead into this to the night that you hosted the memorial for the Pulse Nightclub shooting. But prior to this, do you remember over the years, acts of violence we talked about? 27 �David Dees: When I was younger, absolutely, I remember going to the bars and what it was like. Toby Jenkins: I think you mentioned some club owner had been killed or? David Dees: That was probably a situation where somebody might have been out doing their thing and ran across somebody that was unsuspected while they were doing their thing. But there was a club owner that was, well, that was murdered out at Mohawk Park. That had a drag cabaret at, do you remember who? Okay. I just didn't wanna say his name. Toby Jenkins: If it's on public record, you can share it. David Dees: Who knows if that's public record now? I mean, because again, it's probably on microfiche somewhere, but I mean, where do you find that microfiche? And did that microfiche survive? Dennis Neill: It's on our website, our history website. David Dees: So, you know, that was- It's Mr. Tim. Dennis Neill: Well, I thought it was the partner of Mr. Tim that was murdered. David Dees: For some reason, I thought it was Mr. Tim. I think it was him, actually, butDennis Neill: And he was also winning the publisher of Another World. David Dees: Yes, I forgot about that little rag mag, yeah. Sure enough, it was Mr. Tim. It was kind of our version of Twit and the Galey back in the day. Sure was. [Editor’s note – In 1990, bar owner Tim Turner wrote a history of the early gay bar life, “A Flash from the Past,” which is in the archives and available at history.okeq.org. In the article, Tim clarifies the Mohawk murder: The Blue Haven opened November, 1948 by the 'much loved' Producer, Activist and Entrepreneur, the late M.C. Parker. M.C. Parker and Tim Warren would later cultivate and produce the largest, most spectacular Oklahoma Gay Event in history, the Miss Gay Oklahoma Pageant at the Camelot Inn. (Tim Warren, his life partner forty years his younger, was later murdered and his body discovered in Mohawk Park. The murder was never solved, as well as most gay murders in our city as I recall.] Toby Jenkins: So, about the violence, being yelled at, being threatened, were there stories of people were beat up outside of the clubs in those 80s, 70s, 80s? Speaker 4: 70s, early 80s, yeah. Maybe it picked up a little bit when AIDS first came on the scene because we all of a sudden became the plague. And this is probably where my, again, another unpopular thing that I always did. I was always kind of straight women, okay? Because when AIDS was just full blown and everybody hated the gays and you couldn't touch them and God forbid, don't eat off a fork or a spoon or something that they've touched or drink out of their glass. Straight women, I mean, we had our fag hags for lack of better words, you know? 28 �So, straight women, to me, were our first ally, really, honestly. So, I always made it a point to treat them with respect because, again, my deal was the only way that I am ever going to educate anybody about gay people is to show you that my skin is the same as yours, it feels the same as yours, it has hair like you. When I cut myself, I bleed red just like you. I am no different from who you are other than the fact of who I fall in love with. Other than that, there's no difference. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember when y'all agreed to host the memorial for the Pulse nightclub shooting? And what a difference the community, I mean, there were skyscrapers that were lit in rainbow colors to show solidarity. David Dees: You know, but here's the deal, Toby. We've always been, Tulsa has always been like that, it seems like. I mean, I noticed that, especially probably in 95, 96, towards 2000, okay, after I left Ocean Club, I didn't tell anybody where I was going. Nobody knew where I was going. I just left, abruptly left. One weekend I was there, one weekend I was not. Nobody knew. So then I'm at Concessions, and it's probably two or three months down the road, and all of a sudden I see three or four girls in there that I knew from the Ocean Club, you know? And then a week later, there were 40 or 50 women in there that I knew from the Ocean Club. You know, eight, nine months later, half the room I knew from the damn Ocean Club. You know, and then all of a sudden, with those women, two or three boyfriends or husbands. And then more, and then more. And it just, all of a sudden, Concessions was the first bar that really was a melting pot. And it was. Because it was right there on Peoria, in the middle of the strip, everything. And that's when, initially when they opened, you entered in the back door through the parking lot alley. Well, as things started growing, Kirk was like, you know what, fuck this shit, we're gonna open the front door, we're here, we're queer, and we're gonna know. And for years, the Peoria, or Brookside Merchants Association, for probably four years of the five years that bar was open, ignored that bar. That it didn't exist. They did everything, boo-ha-ha, all that crap. Never once were we ever included in anything, with anything with the Brookside Merchants Association, never. And then we did that drag queen car wash on the back parking lot. Toby Jenkins: At Concessions? David Dees: Yes. Courtney Farrell and the Brookside Divas did that drag queen car wash. And it blew up. And they did multiple drag queen car washes on that parking lot to raise money. But, you know, getting back to what you were saying with that Pulse thing. You know, it's really funny because all of the years that we've been there, not once have I ever worried about anything happening in that bar. Because it seems like the straight community loves that bar as much as the gay community loved that bar. And I always felt like people just wouldn't tolerate anything being done to it. And nothing in 23 years has ever been done to that room. It's never been vandalized. It's nothing. Toby Jenkins: Very good. Do you remember the Pulse nightclub memorial service that was there? 29 �Toby Jenkins: I can't remember if GT was the mayor or if he was a candidate. He was there. Um, he's running, I can't remember. David Dees: I'll never forget you telling, you shouting, we love you Orlando. And all those people. I mean, it was loud. I mean, there was a lot of people. Toby Jenkins: And the skyscrapers downtown. They had put rainbow things on it. David Dees: It was insane. Toby Jenkins: And the police, for every gay person, there was two police there to protect us that night when we went out to the Guthrie Green. David Dees: I remember they were on the roof of my apartment across from the club, sharpshooters up there. Toby Jenkins: I just wonder, when we came to that place to remember it, it was important that the interfaith community and corporate leaders and political figures knew that we considered that our sacred space, that it was there because people had been murdered in Orlando in a club. DavidDees: Absolutely. Just for having a good time, being themselves. They were hurting nobody. Toby Jenkins: And I just want to say for viewers, multiple times you have hosted memorial services for individuals. David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Fundraisers for people in crisis. And for causes, not just for the LGBT community, but foster care organizations, domestic violence organizations. David Dees: Because I mean...Emergency Infant Children Services, for example. We have lesbian women that have children that depend on that, you know? And I've had people go, well, that's not a gay organization. They're helping gay people. What the hell does it matter? And again, you know, it boils down to, even with things that are going on now, why are you still letting these straight people in here? You know what, dude, here's the deal. We're not gonna get anywhere by being shitty to somebody. The only thing that we can do is continue to educate people. Toby Jenkins: Can we put that on a banner? David Dees: Well, it's the truth, it is the truth. Toby Jenkins: It needs to be a logo. David Dees: Why are you trying to, you know, some bad man touched you and hurt you, okay? They're not all doing it, so why are you gonna be mean to everybody? You know, we've got a lot of people out there. Again, the only way we are ever going to get them to understand who we are is to educate them as to who we are and that we are no different. 30 �Toby Jenkins: Do you remember when we had the first parade and I believe you, I don't remember what club it was, but I remember you being at the parade and we had a float. I know Renegade's float caught on fire, but … David Dees: Yeah, I just, the thing that stands out for me is I will never, y'all were coming down 15th Street, it seemed like, and I think it was the World got a picture of that flag with everybody carrying that flag. Thing was huge and beautiful, God, it was beautiful. Toby Jenkins: And then for years, we organized over there at the Tulsa Theater, whatever it's called now. What is it called now? David Dees: Tulsa Theater, it was Brady Theater back then. Toby Jenkins: And we would organize in that parking lot and come down and right in the middle of the bike race, the bike race, and you guys had to do all of that. And then the city council told us we had to change our, look, had to change our route. David Dees: You know what's funny about that damn bike race now? As soon as that bike race is over, that crowd comes into the club and it'll catch a drag show. It's, well, you know, we, I remember, I think we were one of the first LGBT organizations that put money into a race. We'd do like a little cash prize for the blah, blah, blah, whatever, little bounty thing or something. And I remember the first time I walked up to them, I'm like, what's this y'all are doing? And they're like, well, you know, different people, like, you know, the first person that comes through that's wearing a Santa hat on, you know, blah, blah, blah. So they'd have all these different things open and I'd be like, okay, you know, 500 bucks for this person or whatever. And I'll never forget the first time I heard, you know, Club Majestic, blah, blah, blah, yeah. And people were like, what? Toby Jenkins: I want to say this for our viewers. I've always appreciated so much your support of all of the community and for everything that was happening. And the unique thing about you, David Dees, is Club Majestic, for as long as I was involved here at the Equality Center, was one of our corporate sponsors for Pride. Now, let me make sure our audience understands the difference. You would write a significant check out of your own business and personal to corporately support Pride as a cash gift. In addition to, you would let us have fundraisers there to raise money for Pride and all the different accoutrements of that. Many times, our clubs would let us have fundraisers at their clubs, and then they counted that as their sponsorship, and they wanted to be recognized as a sponsor, yet we were the ones that raised the money in their clubs. And I was happy to do that. But it alwaysDavid Dees: I get it with them. Toby Jenkins: Because you wrote a check and gave it to us and then let us have a fundraiser there too. David Dees: Yeah, a lot of these smaller clubs just didn't have the means that we had. You know, we were fortunate to be the big boy on the block. So, you know, and when you're the big boy on the block, you've got a little more responsibility and a little more, and you've got more leeway to be able to do something. 31 �Toby Jenkins: But I want it on the record. David Dees: I appreciate that. Toby Jenkins: You did more than the others. David Dees: It was never a thing that was done for recognition. Toby Jenkins: It was just, yeah. So I wonder if our panel, does anybody else have a question for David Dees? And do you have anything specifically you want to make sure we include in our interview? David Dees: Man, I had so many notes. You know, one thing that I wanted to mention too, that I think is really important to bring up in our history is, again, it goes back to back when HIV was devastating us. There's, up on North Denver, there's, I think it's a little Catholic, Hispanic church now, white. But that's where Catholic Charities had the hospice. And that's where I had a lot of friends that actually… Toby Jenkins: St. Joseph House. David Dees: Yes, yes. You know, I had many friends that wound up there because their families either couldn’t take care of them or wouldn't take care of them. And some people I know that passed away there, went there because their families didn't know. Oh, that's another thing I was going to bring up too. Do you remember when TOHR was at 36th and Peoria? Up above and Daddy's Bar and Grill was there. John Willis had that. Dennis Neill: And well, wasn't it Rick's? David Dees: Yes. Dennis Neill: And it wasn't John, it was Jim. David Dees: Jim from, he was with the Tulsa County Court. Jim and Rick, Rick was his partner. And then after they closed it, John did Daddy's there. Dennis Neill: That's right, right. Toby Jenkins: TOHR's first LGBT center. David Dees: Was that, or were you at 41st and Harvard first? Dennis Neill: Yes, the only thing at 41st and Harvard, which is actually 39th and Harvard. It wasn't really large. So we didn't have a community meeting. David Dees: That's correct. Dennis Neill: And we did not have a store there. David Dees: You all just moved the phone lines there, didn't you, from Zippers. Dennis Neill: And then we ran HIV testing out there for a while. David Dees: That's correct. Dennis Neill: And then we ran the AIDS Support Program out there. 32 �Toby Jenkins: Anything else on your notes? David Dees: Well, I definitely, you know, and you do have it on your site, but I think it's important to bring up that Tim Turner, who owned Tim's Playroom, wrote a history of, I mean, like, good Lord. I wish people could have met Gene from the Bamboo Lounge. What a character, what a character. That's all I've got about him. What a character. Everybody had to have a rite of passage. You took them in to meet Gene. Toby Jenkins: At the Bamboo. David Dees: At the Bamboo, yes. And Gene would, we would be like, Gene, John's never been here before. You need to make him a pair of jeans. And oh, Lord. He, boy, he was a flamboyant little queen. Like, first thing, here's what I remember about the Bamboo, okay? I remember walking to the Bamboo and like, what a beautiful aquarium behind the bar with, I've never seen so many dicks in my life in an aquarium. They had dicks that blew air bubbles and dicks that the fish were eating algae off of it. I mean, there were penises everywhere in that aquarium. They probably even had a penis-shaped fish that you just didn't know was in there because you were too busy looking at all the penises in the aquarium. Lord have mercy. But man, what an incredible man he was. He was such, such a neat man. Toby Jenkins: It was such a loss when that club closed. David Dees: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: Because it had the distinction of being one of the longest clubs around. And we tried, at the time, the present administration, or the previous administration of Obama, they were beginning, the National Park Service was looking for historical places to register on the historical registry. And we were trying to work to get Bamboo included in that. And then it closed. David Dees: You know, the, what was it, another thing that, you know, our bars, too, were so diverse back then. You had your gay men's bar, you had the cruise bar, you had the dance club, the women had their bar. You know, so it was like, I remember, the Zebra Lounge was pretty much down about, what, sixth to seventh on Main. It was the block north of Harrington's, when Harrington's was there. You know, that was where your older clientele hung out. You know, Taj Mahal, of course, was your little hustler bar. Lord have mercy. We had so many different, unique things. You know, TNT's, how long did TNT's go on for? They were a good 20 years. Toby Jenkins: Oh, longer than that. David Dees: Easy. You know, I remember the Club, when it was on Memorial, back in the day. I'll never forget. Jane Ann Earl. Lord, I was, okay, I was working at a bank at the time. I'd just gotten, I was a bank teller for like two or three years, and I'll never forget. You know, she was a larger than life lesbian woman, okay? I mean, and she was a big woman, and she drove a Pontiac Bonneville, big old tank car, and she'd come flying that thing, and I always, here's what I remember about her. On her dash of her car, she had like a leopard print dash cover, and she was just rough and tough. I mean, she was tough, and I always loved her, and she would always look at me, she'd be like, hi, baby. Oh, Lord, she was such a neat lady, Jane Ann Earl. I need to go try to look that name up. She'd have to be dead by now. 33 �Toby Jenkins: The helpful thing from this interview is that we now know that Patty was your high school friend. And rescued you in the street, made you come back in with wanting to get her interviewed. Anything else on your notes? David Dees: And she may or may not remember that, but I was just like, she was like, David Dees, David Dees, I'm Patty Murray, we went to high school together. Don't hurt me. Toby Jenkins: Anything else on your notes that you want to make sure we include? And then I would like if Mary or Dennis have a question for you. David Dees: Oh, absolutely. Let's see. Oh, the Camelot Inn, Trudy Tyler, our first Miss Gay Oklahoma, U.S. of A. She was crowned there. Toby Jenkins: Very good. And that would, do you remember the year? David Dees: I want to say 75, I think. Toby Jenkins: And I've been told, Dennis may know from the archives, because I think it's included in our archives, and it was covered by the media. They would have people protest outside that the Camelot was hosting the pageant. David Dees: Absolutely, absolutely. Toby Jenkins: And the Camelot was a bougie place in those days. David Dees: Yes, it was, absolutely, very much so. And I don't remember if she wrote for the World or the Tribune, but Joanne Gordon. I mean, that lady, and I think I furnished y'all with copies of that, too, where she's like, Joanne discovers the Fruit Loop, and she wrote a whole article, because she would, her and her husband, they'd write editorial, you know, just a little commentary every day, editorial-type thing. Toby Jenkins: And for our audience, what was the Fruit Loop? David Dees: Oh, Lord, the Fruit Loop was, okay, let's see. We go down to 6th Street, okay, so it started at 9th Street, go down past Holy Family Cathedral to 6th Street, then we would head east on 6th Street to Main, and then we'd come up Main, go past Kathy's, 8th and 9th on Main, and then turn right at the apartment complex that was there, and go back to Boulder. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so these were all one-way streets in downtown Tulsa. David Dees: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And it was like a cruising place where people could… David Dees: Hundreds of people cruising, and it was every night of the week, but Friday and Saturday night, you'd have 100 cars on that parking lot across from Holy Family Cathedral until the cops would run us off. Toby Jenkins: I may know a little bit about it, or maybe not, but it was very popular. David Dees: I know a lot about it. 34 �Toby Jenkins: All right, our panel, does anybody else have a question for David Dees? We've got a person who was there and saw it happen. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: When did the Fruit Loop's driving end? David Dees: 80s, probably, yeah. Because all the bars started moving out of the downtown area. Because for the longest time, they were all downtown. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: As a bar owner, what do you think makes you be so benevolent to the community and take it upon yourself to assist the community in so many ways as you have over the years, rather than just sit back and rake in the money and not care about who you're taking it from? David Dees: Probably being as old as I am and experienced. Honestly, I'm like I said, it all goes back to that deal with my mom. Honestly, with me was she? She just showed me honestly what unconditional love was, what come, what compassion was, and I think I kind of learned: you learn what you will put up with and you learn what you will not put up with. You know, and so then you have to learn how to apply that evenly across the board, and I've always I've, in running that club, it's always been with me, what's fair is fair, and if it's fair for you, then it's fair for you. It's not, it's just not ever been one segment was treated better than another segment. It can't be that way. And it's also been an educational tool, like I've said many times. You know, I I don't want to feel like somebody, oh, you have that little Trump derangement syndrome where I say it's like a ministry. But it kind of was. It was a ministry in a way, because it was a tool to teach people who we were. Again, it was like: you know, look, I have hair on my arm, so do you? So do you? Look, I believe red, so do you. You know I love, so do you. Now, who I love may be different from who you love, but you know that was that was always….just the whole point was: you know we're here, you know what you're, welcome. Come on in, learn about us, have fun with us. We'll have fun with you. Toby Jenkins: So it'd be. To recap, it would be your mother's influence made you look out for others, and not just. David Dees: I think absolutely that that moment with my mom was probably one of the most incredibly pivotal moments in my life. It was. It was a huge life lesson. It's a life lesson I never forgot. David Dees: Dennis, do you have a question for our guests today. Dennis Neill: Not at this time, thank you. Toby Jenkins: Okay, I know that you are maybe not as visible at the club. Do you want to acknowledge the people that run the place? David Dees: Yes, I'm definitely not. I mean, I'm a couple years from 70, so I'm definitely not as up to being up there. I definitely can't race up down the stairs like I used to. As far as hands-on, I'm still very much hands-on behind the scenes I can. I can assure people that I've got people in place, that they're- they're still doing what it is I want done and running it how I want done and a lot of the things that are in place- the, the security that's in place. That's how I want it done and I want it very 35 �visible. I want people to know that, you know we're very well aware of what's going on out there. Toby Jenkins: And the manager today is Chris Shoaf. David Dees: Chris has run that for me technically for probably easily ten years, but he was also a big part even before then. Toby Jenkins: And he would be known to our viewers because of his activism, work and his being a strong advocate. David Dees: Absolutely, I I think I think people don't really realize the amount of time and the and the things that you know, Chris… Chris can be very vocal sometimes and I think some people are like, oh, it's a little dramatic. But I can promise you, if there's something going on, he's the one that's out there barking. He's the dog out in the yard in the middle of the night barking to let you know that, hey, something's going on. Maybe you ought to get up right. Toby Jenkins: And that is the manager at the Majestic. I know another thing I want to before we finish. So in a minute I'm going to ask you what we ask all of our guests: do you have a message for the future, for young people or the people who come after us? So in a minute I'm going to ask you for that. But I wanted you to tell a little bit about I know you live in a house that's on wheels and live in a travel trailer motor home, and I know you're a part of a group of LGBT people that get together. Toby Jenkins: Yes, what's the name of that group? David Dees: There's a couple now. There's one that's based out of Oklahoma City: Pride in the Pines LGBT Camping, and then the greater Tulsa LGBT Camping. It was based, you know, on eastern Oklahoma and then, of course, there's a lot of intermingling with the members in each group. Toby Jenkins: And kind of what is its focus. David Dees: You get together, just get together, hang out, meet, meet, and I mean it's just absolutely, yeah, absolutely, it's fun, that's I used to run, Dennis and John. Their first time I ran into them camping was at Natural Falls, I believe. Toby Jenkins: Very good. So as we finish our time together, I'm going to ask you: do you have a message for the future, for those that come after us? Is there something you want to say? David Dees: Know your worth, absolutely know your worth. Don't settle for anything less you are. I feel like I've tried to lead life by the golden rule: do unto others as you would have them do unto you, but don't expect them to do unto you, or you're probably going to be sorely disappointed. But you always, always, always, lead by example, and I get it. Sometimes it's hard and sometimes you turn the cheek, sometimes you get a few teeth knocked out, but it's just how…It's how you've got to do it. It reminds me of the days of Act Up, you know, and I've heard it applied to the riots that went on with George Floyd and all this. I, you know, and I'm somebody said: 36 �well, I just don't agree with doing this and doing that. Well, I remember with Act Up, I didn't used to like some of the things that act up did. I know why they did it, because sometimes you have to go to that extreme to make people stop and go whoa and and look at things and think. Toby Jenkins: And Act Up would have been an activist group that was very visible and involved in the 80s and some of their protests were pretty dramatic, everything from sprinkling the ashes the cremated remains of their lovers on the lawn of the White House, and then they had protests at the cathedrals because of their stand on condemning condom use. David Dees: Absolutely and like, like I said, some of them at the time. Some of these things seem really extreme but again, sometimes you have to stop, step outside of the box, look at what's real. What's going on? What, what is, what is the intent here? Sometimes it looks malice, but maybe it's not. Toby Jenkins: Our time today has been with David Dees. Any closing words, sir, before we finish our time together? David Dees: No, I'm happy. I touched on a lot of things that were important, I think. And there's there's a lot of history that a lot of people don't know about. Toby Jenkins: So when are you going to run for an elected office> David Dees: Absolutely never. Toby Jenkins: Well, I think you've got some campaign slogans. David Dees: I intend to live out my the rest of my years. That's another thing that people need to remember. Live your life happy. That's it. In the grand scheme of things, nothing else matters. Water off a duck's back Toby Jenkins: You've been listening to David Dees David Dees: Preach the gospel. Toby Jenkins: Here in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library in the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, the headquarters of Oklahomans for Equality and he is a part of our history project. Thank you. Addendum: Given David’s initial work at Zippers, the editor has added the following for the Zippers Facebook page established in 2016 by a group of former patrons of the bar: ABOUT ZIPPERS In 1975, construction began on a 6,023 square foot building on 33rd Street, just west of South Yale Avenue in Tulsa, OK. Completed early in 1976, it originally opened as Casino Disco, a private gambling and dancing club that did not remain open for long. An upscale discotheque named Casablanca followed, but it too was short lived, and was followed by yet another club named Sweetwater Station, which failed to develop a following and also closed in a matter of months. By 1978, the building was just a 37 �little over two years old and had been home to three failed ventures--but that was about to change. In the Fall of 1978, John Willis with the help of an investor from a prominent Tulsa family opened Zippers Electric Circus, a club that catered to a mostly gay clientele, although everyone was welcome. Prior to Zippers, Willis was doing sound work at the Old Plantation, another gay club near 51st and Yale, which shared a parking lot with a Steak and Ale Restaurant. Willis used his knowledge and experience to ensure that the sound system at Zippers would be the finest in the area at the time, and it was said to be the best west of the Mississippi River. Zippers had an intimate atmosphere, and reliably packed in patrons night after night. Theme parties such as Fantasy in Red, Fantasy in Black, and Hollywood Nights attracted even larger crowds, and from time to time entertainers such as Sylvester and Pamala Stanley appeared in the club. Zippers was a trend setter by establishing shared men's and women's rest rooms, which often surprised first time visitors. Zippers was a big hit, and pulled in visitors from other states. It was not unusual to see tags from five or more states on cars in the parking lot. After 10 years, Willis opened a new club named Strokes in the Brookside area of Tulsa, and closed Zippers, ending an era that had to be experienced to be understood, and one that created many friendships and fond memories for everyone fortunate enough to have been a part of it. John Willis passed away in 1993, but he and the establishment he envisioned and created lives on today in the memories of many. This group is dedicated to John Willis, the staff at Zippers who greeted all who entered, poured their drinks, mixed the music, cleaned up the mess, and to everyone who came to dance, drink, and made Zippers a part of their lives from 1978 to 1987. 38 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] David Dees Interview Subject The topic of the resource Donald Dees Oral History Project Interview from April 21, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource David Dees, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 21, 2026 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived This interview with David Dees offers a deep dive into the history of LGBTQ+ community life in Tulsa, including early club culture, personal experiences with family acceptance, and the evolution of Pride events. It provides valuable insights into the challenges and resilience of the community over decades. Join us for an in-depth interview with David Dees as he shares his experiences and insights from decades of activism, community organizing, and the history of LGBTQ+ life in Tulsa. Discover stories of community resilience, the fight against AIDS, and the importance of education and inclusion. 2026 AIDS AIDS/HIV David Dees Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill HIV/AIDs interview LGBT history OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Pride Toby Jenkins transcript video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/cc3052265641e91708c470a1da53f2c8.mp4 c292925d682c245c5990b862876362e3 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/3103eb010d8088c5bc057603b24e9df2.docx 892af463552c3339fd46262952c4b209 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dennis Neill Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Cannon Location The location of the interview Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, Tulsa, Oklahoma Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Video and transcript Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:33:52 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] John Cannon Interview Subject The topic of the resource John Cannon Oral History Project Interview from April 21, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John Cannon, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 21, 2026 Description An account of the resource This interview with John Cannon offers a deep dive into his life journey, exploring his early years, struggles with sexuality and religion, and his experiences across different cities. It provides valuable insights into the challenges and resilience of LGBTQ+ individuals navigating faith, family, and community over decades. John shares his life journey through the AIDS crisis, his experiences with depression, and his involvement in LGBTQ+ organizations. This interview offers insights into resilience, community engagement, and personal growth over decades. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Oklahomans for Equality Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Oklahomans for Equality Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Prime Timers' Prime News Subject The topic of the resource Tulsa Area Prime Timers Newsletter "Prime News" Description An account of the resource 2 issues of Volume 33 of the "Prime News" monthly newsletter published by the Tulsa Area Primer Timers for 2026. It features prior meeting minutes and a calendar of events for each month. <strong>Available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tulsa Area Prime Timers Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2026 2026 2026 Gala available at Center Bob Blum calendar Dennis R. Neill Equality Center Equality Center gala Jeff Nguyen John Madigan Newsletter OkEq Equality Center OKEQ Gala OKEQ Seniors Prime Timers Primetimers Richard Lindsay Steven Dubois TAPT Tulsa Area Prime Timers Tulsa Area Prime Timers (TAPT) Tulsa Area Primetimers Warren Duvall https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/a9833ab5fe8328fbfdef9ec903c20de0.mp4 92825093a4ada74a717cc055997e13ba https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/3fc48b689864b8bf66fd6a4fc194b5ac.pdf 67e001a6f4d45e09317b66ff95c3f17b PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Nancy McDonald Interview Conducted by Anna Puhl Date: 2021 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, April 4, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �In 2021, Anna Puhl of the OkEq staff did a short interview with Nancy McDonald in her home. The interview focused on Nancy’s work on behalf of the LGBTQ+ community as a founder of PFLAG in Tulsa, her testimony before Congress concerning the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), and involvement with OkEq. Nancy McDonald Interview with Anna Puhl 2021 Nancy McDonald: Well, I think it's important to understand the mission of PFLAG. Yes. PFLAG has three components. It really is supportive of parents and LGBT people who are coming out to their parents on what is this all about. We have come so far since 1987. So we no longer get people coming to PFLAG who are crying because they had gay kids. Then the second component of PFLAG is to educate. Educate ourselves, to educate our family members, to educate our friends, our religious affiliations, the volunteer work that we may do. And the third component is advocacy. And those three prongs hold true for the local chapter as well as the national organization. So the national organization, one of the things that they wanted to support was gay marriage. And we thought, oh, this would never, ever come to be. And then all of a sudden, up pops DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act, sponsored by our congressman Steve Largent. And so they were going to have hearings on DOMA and PFLAG was asked to participate. So I went to Washington to participate on the panel discussion before the Justice Committee in Congress. That was, it was an interesting experience. And I was on the panel with Elizabeth Birch, who was at that time a president of the HRC, Human Resources Committee [Human Rights Campaign, now just HRC]. And also Andrew Sullivan, who was a Republican, a gay man, living with AIDS. And we were the last panel to be interviewed. Prior to that interview, Steve Largent walked into the room where we were being interviewed, all of these people were being interviewed about DOMA. And I thought to myself, it was very crowded, there was one seat to my right, the door was on my left, he wasn't going to get by me. And so I stood up and I said, you know, Representative Largent, I'm from Tulsa, Oklahoma. Oh, he was so glad to see me. And then he sort of puzzled, and he said, well, why are you here? And I said, I'm here to testify against DOMA, because that's very hurtful for my daughter and many other LGBT people. At that point in time, I had a hold of his hand. It's a very interesting and funny story. I don't know, I was holding his hand with both of my hands, and I didn't let go, as I was talking about how mean-spirited this piece of legislation was. I think he thought I was contagious, because he kept backing away with me and I wouldn't let go. And there was a photographer from the Washington Post sitting on the floor, snapping these pictures. It's now in the national PFLAG office, Steve Largent almost at a 90-degree angle as he tries to get away from me. So it was sort of funny. But then in the testimony, it was really interesting, because the first person, Elizabeth Birch, testified, and they had her crying, and they attacked her about being a lesbian. The second one was 2 �Andrew Sullivan. Andrew was HIV-positive, he was out, and it was just so meanspirited. And then I was the last person to testify against DOMA, and I took my chair and I just thought to myself, all of these men sitting on this panel are grandparents. And so I introduced myself. I introduced myself as a parent, and a grandparent. And at that point, you could have heard a pin drop in there. And they started asking me questions, and they were sort of mean. You know, I did the best that I could, but I knew when I ended that we were not going to be successful in getting this piece of legislation out of the House. So it moved forward, and then it was such a disappointment to me and to a lot of other people that Bill Clinton signed it. And so that was my one experience in Congress. But I also testified on the Employment Non-Discrimination Act. Anna Puhl: Tell me about it. Nancy McDonald: And that was, you know, what we were trying to do was to get a national law that you could not fire LGBT people because they were gay. That never really happened, but we picked up, you know, many, many, many, many corporations that just embraced that and put that as part of their policies. And then I also testified on HIV-AIDS drugs and the value of the federal government supporting drugs for HIV-AIDS. So, and that was successful. I feel really good about that one. But I had a number of experiences in Congress and working with Congress on policies to protect our LGBT youth. Certainly in Oklahoma, I worked on the antibullying legislation. It was defeated three times before we finally got it through. And it was a lot of education, one-on-one, with the local congressmen, or the local legislators, I should say. And that's a good piece of legislation. One of the challenges there, it does not specifically say gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender youth. It says youth. And the difficulty in getting that piece of legislation through the Oklahoma legislature is that they would get hung up on gay, lesbian, bi, and trans. And so I met with an attorney from ACLU and he said, don't worry about that, Nancy. What we want to get into that bill is all youth. And when we get all youth, that includes our youth. And so if there's any issue, or if someone files suit against a school district for a child being bullied because they're gay, we can use this piece of legislation. And so that's how we got it through the Oklahoma legislature. But we had to work hard. We never did get gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender people in our hate crimes, state-created hate crimes law. It's still a disappointment. Anna Puhl: We have a city ordinance. Nancy McDonald: That's right. We all should be very proud of our city. And the things that have happened in our city government policies, in our non-profit policies, in our corporate policies, in our public schools. Our kids and our teachers are protected. I'm so grateful to Dr. Gist to have continued that even though the former president, I refuse to say his name, the former president immediately abandoned that piece of legislation. 3 �Anna Puhl: Title IX, yeah. What are some challenges that you have overcome in your time, like more specified on OkEq than PFLAG? I love PFLAG stuff. What are some things you've done with OkEq or what are some accomplishments that you think OkEq has done? What are some things, like moments in your history with OkEq that you're proud of? Nancy McDonald: I'm so proud of just having a building that is a safe place for gay, lesbian, bi, trans people. And it is a real tribute to their board of directors and their leadership and the executive director for making that happen. It was a challenge to raise the money for this community center. We should be proud that we did not accept any federal grants, any federal money, any state money. This was raised locally from individuals and corporations and foundations that supported the LGBT community. I'm extremely proud of that. At the last gay pride parade, you know, I was doing it in my wheelchair and I just thought about it. I thought, my gosh, 10,000 plus people. We couldn't even get a parade permit. The city wouldn't let us have a parade. And we walked on the sidewalk to Veterans Park for our first fair community event. It took us two years to get that permit, thanks to Greg Gatewood and his leadership. And then to see the events around the city. And the booths and the people having fun, and it was well done. It was not anything that would make any of us ashamed. I'm always pleased that it's of such good quality, and maybe that's some other coming out of me, but I really want it to be topnotch good quality, something that all of us can be proud of, including parents. Anna Puhl: You brought up something that made me think: hold on, do you want to talk about the library? Nancy McDonald: Okay, I'll talk about the library. Sharon Thoele, who was the executive director of Tulsa Cares- and you know I was part of the founders of Tulsa Cares when we got our first Ryan White money to have a program to service our HIV-AIDS patients and clients- and Sharon Thoele decided that Joe and I needed to be recognized in some visible, tangible way, and so she came up with the idea of the library, and so we thought that was really lovely to have a library in our honor, but, more important than that, to have resources, books and films and videos and whatever pieces of information- for the LGBT community to come in and have a safe place to read and research and do all those things. So yes, Joe and I are very proud of our Joe and Nancy Library. Anna Puhl: I love the Joe and Nancy Library. I work in the History Project a lot, so it's kind of my home base, I think, as here we are in 2021, and I try to think about you know what are the needs. Nancy McDonald: I am still extremely concerned about our kids in public schools, and do we have adequate resources for them at their school level and how do we help our young people address the hate speech that is often directed at them from their peers? That's a big concern. I'm also concerned about how we continue to reach out and try to educate the evangelical person in this community, the churches, you know. I've been in the parades from the very beginning. I've seen the horrible signs. I just think it must be so difficult for LGBT people to walk by those. 4 �I always wanted to roll up to them and say: I've seen your signs for 20 years. You need to get some new ones. I worry about when we put our LGBT people at risk for hate speech. I often reflect on when I testified on DOMA. I know that that room was filled with young LGBT people and they sat there and had to listen to the hate speech from the congressman and I just ache for when that happens. I hope that we can continue to educate that this is no longer an issue. It certainly is better than it was in 1987, but I don't think we can give up and say the job is done- absolutely not. Anna Puhl: This is not a question for the thing, but out of curiosity, at Pride this year did you see anybody protesting? Nancy McDonald: Yes Anna Phul: Okay, I didn't go the whole parade route so I didn't know. Nancy McDonald: They had moved this year. They were up towards the beginning of the parade and they were there with all of their signs and their whistles and hate speech yelling at everybody and it's hateful and thank goodness for the Dykes on Bikes Because they just drove by and made lots of noise in front of them. I'm always grateful for the Dykes on Bikes I've seen I mean I participated in the San Francisco Gay Pride and the New York Gay Pride and I've participated in the 2 AIDS marches on Washington and I'm always grateful for the Dykes on Bikes. Anna Phul: So, how many children do you have and how many grandchildren do you have? Nancy McDonald: Well, we have four children and then we have sort of a semi adopted son. Okay, we never legally adopted him, but he's very much part of our family. And I have eight grandchildren and then Zach our sort of adopted son has two. Our youngest daughter, our gay daughter, went to Booker T. Washington. She's a great soccer player, but this is her mother talking. She went to Tufts University, and she was on the starting squad freshman year and then she has a degree in sociology and women's studies. Wasn't quite sure what she was going to do. She went to San Francisco worked in a law office. Didn't like that, decided that she really would like to be an English teacher of English learners or English language learners. So she went to Stanford and she had a master's and her PhD in education from Stanford and she is Living in Seattle, Washington. She is the headmistress of a private school in Seattle. She is married and she has two children Simon is 17 and Sadie is 14 Anna Phul: Can you were you like did you ever imagine that that she'd be married with two children? Nancy McDonald: No, never. Anna Puhl: Can you say that in a sentence? Does that make sense? Nancy McDonald: I think that every parent dreams about you know, what your children will become. They'll get married, heterosexual, they'll have children. They'll have you know, we will have lovely grandchildren. And you very quickly realize that's 5 �not the case. It is their life. And so when Morva came out we had to reconstruct our hopes and dreams for her. And one of the things was at that point in time, I didn't think she would ever be able to have a family. Not so. And so when she announced to us that she really wanted children, and she wanted us to be a part of that. We said absolutely. We love you no matter what. Held her hand. They're brother and sister [ pointing to a picture]. You know, you just that was not in our hopes and dreams for Morva. Even after she became after she came out, they thought she'll never have a family. But she does, she has a lovely family. Anna Puhl: That's so cool. Yeah,you're gonna like be a showstopper on these things, you know. [ Pointing to Joe McDonald] He can be the quiet one. Nancy McDonald: Super dad. 6 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2021] Nancy McDonald Interview Subject The topic of the resource Nancy McDonald Interview with Anna Puhl from 2021 Description An account of the resource In 2021, Anna Puhl of the OkEq staff did a short interview with Nancy McDonald in her home. The interview focused on Nancy’s work on behalf of the LGBTQ+ community as a founder of PFLAG in Tulsa, her testimony before Congress concerning the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), and involvement with OkEq. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Nancy McDonald, Anna Puhl, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2021 2021 AIDS AIDS drugs AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV drugs Anna Puhl Defense of Marriage Act Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) DOMA HIV HIV drug study HIV/AIDs HIV/AIDS research interview Joe McDonald Nancy and Joe McDonald Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library Nancy McDonald Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) PFLAG PFLAG Tulsa Chapter Rainbow Library Sharon Thoele transcript Tulsa CARES Tulsa PFLAG video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/591097169e8d9edcf90d2a5179493d5d.MP4 9eb05f1481de95791fedb7ea47c7922d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > Our Community Photoshoot and Storytelling Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Cory Ross Interview https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/bb45d6f0326d983ca527673a88fd5984.MOV a131e82ed673721844cbd57a12c8c69e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > Our Community Photoshoot and Storytelling Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Mikala Phillips Interview https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/b3d7a6a444abaaf35bcc9695a5df8f15.MP4 7e3f93f6d1827bd4237ac041c5acc846 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > Our Community Photoshoot and Storytelling Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. 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For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > Our Community Photoshoot and Storytelling Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Comfort Keidel Interview https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/36abeea08430c8f39650f48b7da1e24d.MOV eb1572adf4b3bf18f1f47c11e90ef2b0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > Our Community Photoshoot and Storytelling Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Kevin Lovelace Interview https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/9aaefe23c50b8136e1ed7e24d9c9d898.mp4 1b5aa0179d697ac638be3a4f2011a766 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > Our Community Photoshoot and Storytelling Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] John Coffman Interview https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/4d63c6816fa2a71ba7ca0dfee00aeeb0.MP4 0538f3e0181536b6fee0319911ada6b6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > Our Community Photoshoot and Storytelling Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Julia Clayton Interview https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/68f629a3a99a1a975e547e9b59dca447.MOV 516d3e792efcbca6165a3226f5de7a7e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > Our Community Photoshoot and Storytelling Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Tori Bock Interview https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/9412165f4a234a41ee1ebdd9c91696b2.MP4 72dcbb43213916554236bd2b5c2ffff2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > Our Community Photoshoot and Storytelling Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Amesha Barlow Interview https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/5a2d5f174609df9930fd7f67a9e17d7f.MOV 27c980e2a1a1047ad6c3ab7d2035ec21 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > Our Community Photoshoot and Storytelling Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Whitney Cipolla Interview https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/eadf1c072db2c6688196bb39138060b2.MP4 8d7290b2bda1a56fbb71cbbe81374bec Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > Our Community Photoshoot and Storytelling Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Joan Bjornsgard Interview https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/c9d67df35090fb846d82e38728243423.jpeg 3f7500dd0ec1f26bfe646192d40da5e3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Collection] Oklahoma LGBT+ History Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br /><br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Veteran's Wall https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/d9c8a6149f14a01008d49c6d3f611a9e.pdf b4ccfe0cef6ae75fb4be9ca4125dc32d PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins (and Dennis Neill) Date: March 19, 2026 Edited By: Dennis Neill using Riverside Studio AI, March 21th, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Summary This interview with Pat Hobbs and John Orsulak explores their 36-year relationship, their careers in theater, music, and education, and their activism within the LGBTQ community in Tulsa. They share personal stories, insights on community involvement, and their vision for a more inclusive future. Keywords LGBTQ, Tulsa, theater, activism, community, aging in place, Rainbow Room, cohousing, Pride, advocacy Key Topics  Personal stories of Pat Hobbs and John Orsulak  Their careers in theater, music, and education  Involvement in LGBTQ advocacy and community building  The vision for the Rainbow Room and co-housing in Tulsa Chapters 00:00 Introduction to the Oklahoma LGBTQ History Archives 02:59 Love Story: Pat and John's Journey Together 05:49 Childhood and Early Influences 08:57 Navigating Identity and Sexual Orientation 12:00 The Impact of AIDS on Personal Lives 14:58 Career Paths and Community Involvement 17:49 Theater and Music: A Shared Passion 2 �20:53 Family Dynamics and Acceptance 23:58 Reflections on Life and Legacy 39:31 Theater Memories and Personal Triumphs 42:08 Integrity in Arts Organizations 43:27 Reflections on the Catholic Church and Leadership 45:22 The Journey of Finale's Restaurant 52:40 Y2K and the Impact on Business 54:50 Gardening and Community Living 56:28 The Vision Behind Heartwood Commons 01:01:32 The Role of the Rainbow Room in Tulsa 01:09:42 Theater Community Health and Future 01:14:38 Being a Face of the LGBTQ+ Community 01:18:39 Messages for Future Generations John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Oral History Interview March 19, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Today is March 19th, 2026. We are at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library interviewing today two wonderful people for our Oklahoma LGBTQ History Archives. Present in the room is Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality. Amanda Thompson, our archivist, and Toby Jenkins. Could you tell us your names? Pat Hobbs: I'm Pat Hobbs. John Orsulak: I'm John Orsulak. Toby Jenkins: And just to kick this off, how long have you been together? Pat and John: 36 years. Toby Jenkins: Now, we're interviewing this couple together and then we're going to find out a little bit about their lives. But I think for our purposes today, I'd like to start out with this question, because I know Oprah would ask. How did y'all meet? Pat Hobbs: Oh, Lord. In church. John Orsulak: Well, church rectory. At the time, I was a church music director at a small Catholic church in Bay City, Michigan, birthplace of Madonna. And the staff was invited over to the rectory for Thanksgiving. And the pastor I worked for was gay. Not that that makes any difference. But anyway, he had the staff over. Pat was visiting a mutual friend of ours who happened to be living there at the time. And Pat 3 �came into the kitchen and we started talking about theater. My ex at the time also showed up at the time, and he'd had a few. But we just hit it off and then... go ahead. Pat Hobbs: Well, we hit it off and he invited me to breakfast on Monday before I left town. And we started a long-distance conversation for about a month. And we met for the next time in Chicago for New Year's Eve. And I spent New Year's in Chicago. John Orsulak: I came down for Valentine's. Pat Hobbs: He came down in February to meet Tulsa. It was his Tulsa debut at Jerry Jackson's and Jeff Feist House for a big party. And then it just evolved. John Orsulak: You came in April. Pat Hobbs: I came in April, went back up there. And it was just kind of a decision. Who's got the better job? He was in music and he can do that anywhere. And I had a really good job here at the time. So we just decided to move here. And John moved down July 4th weekend. Toby Jenkins: And what year would that have been? Pat Hobbs: That was 1990. John Orsulak: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: All right. Well, let's find out how you two people became smitten with each other. What led to that moment? Pat, tell us about your childhood and your family. Pat Hobbs: Well, I'm the second of four boys growing up in Southeast Texas. My dad was a lieutenant colonel in the Marines. So we were his four Marine Corps boys. My baby brother was gay. He was five years younger than me. But we didn't realize that until 1990. So I grew up in Beaumont, Texas and spent time at the farm up in Newton County. And just considered myself kind of a country boy at some point. Toby Jenkins: So where did you go to high school? Pat Hobbs: Went to high school in Beaumont, Texas. Toby Jenkins: Beaumont, Texas. And what year did you graduate? Pat Hobbs: 1970. Toby Jenkins: So it's 1970. What was the world like in 1970, your world? Pat Hobbs: Oh, it was hippie time and it was protest time. Protesting the Vietnam War. Nixon was president. A lot of politics going on. But the draft was going on too. And sending kids overseas to fight in a war that we didn't, many of us didn't believe in. Luckily, I had a very high draft number and I didn't go. Toby Jenkins: So you never did get called up? Pat Hobbs: Never got called up. Toby Jenkins: What were your interests in school? 4 �Pat Hobbs: All my interests in high school were band and theater. And when I was in high school, I went with a friend to help him audition. They convinced me to audition and I got the lead. And it was the first thing I'd ever done. So it was one of those real quick things that, oh, this is fun. Toby Jenkins And what was the production? Pat Hobbs: It was a play called See How They Run. Toby Jenkins: Okay, it wasn't a musical. Pat Hobbs: No, we didn't do musicals in high school because the drama department did not speak to the choir department. They were at the same period, so we never did a musical. But I always loved them. Toby Jenkins: So that piqued your interest in performance. Were you in the band? Pat Hobbs: I was in the band, marching band. I played tuba. Toby Jenkins: Tuba. Pat Hobbs: I played tuba in the marching band. Toby Jenkins: And it probably was bigger than you were. Pat Hobbs: It was bigger than me, but you know, I placed first my junior and senior year. I placed first in competition. Toby Jenkins: In tuba. In Texas. Pat Hobbs: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Well, of course you did. You've always been an overachiever. Pat Hobbs: And then I actually won a state award my senior year. I was the first from our high school since 1952 to win a state UIL, University Interscholastic League award for boys' prose reading. And my winning selection was James Thurber's Unicorn in the Garden. Toby Jenkins: Wow, How appropriate. Okay. So this was 1970. Do you happen to remember how many were in your graduating class from Beaumont? Pat Hobbs: 289. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so it was a mid-sized Texas town. Did you go to college after that? Technical school? Pat Hobbs: I went to SMU the following fall and spent four years at. Toby Jenkins: And SMU is? Pat Hobbs: Southern Methodist University. I was a theater major my first year. And it was just a weird time for me because I thought there were a bunch of weirdos in the theater department. I wasn't out, but there were just a lot of weirdos. I mean, gay people. You know, what I thought were gay people. And I ended up transferring over to the business school and got a degree in accounting and finance but kept my love 5 �for theater and performing. And I would do all-school talent shows when it didn't involve the theater. Toby Jenkins: At SMU? Pat Hobbs: Uh-huh, when it didn't involve the theater department, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Did you, by then, you're a college student. Did you, how do you identify? What is your sexual orientation? Pat Hobbs: At college? Toby Jenkins: Well, now. Pat Hobbs: Oh, now I'm gay. Toby Jenkins: Okay, what about at college? Pat Hobbs: I was straight, struggling. Toby Jenkins: Okay, but you had that sexual attraction to persons of the same sex. Pat Hobbs: I did, but, you know, it took a long time to get to the point, to actual coming out. Toby Jenkins: So you got a accounting degree from SMU. Pat Hobbs: I did. Toby Jenkins: And what happened after that? Pat Hobbs: You know, I had a job there in Dallas, and then I was dating a young woman, and she had a family business here in Tulsa. Their accountant retired, so they asked me if I would come to work for them here in Tulsa, so that's how I got to Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: And what year was that? Pat Hobbs: I worked for them, that was in 76, and worked for them until 1987. Toby Jenkins: Now, were you married? Pat Hobbs: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And how long were you married? Pat Hobbs: 11 years. Toby Jenkins: 11 years. Any children? Pat Hobbs: No children. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And during that 11 years, were there any kind of struggles over that? Did you have a sense of insecurity in your sexuality, or were you comfortable in that relationship? 6 �Pat Hobbs: I was very comfortable in it until the last couple of years, and there was this desire to see what's out there, you know? Toby Jenkins: Okay. John, tell us about your childhood. John Orsulak: Oh, gosh. Born in 1954. I'm the youngest of six. I have three brothers, two sisters, and also a stepsister, which was later, after I was an adult. Used to be, I think, current count on nieces and nephews is 13, though I do have some grand, or great, whatever it is, nieces and nephews now, and I think I'm even now getting to the great, great stage, which is weird. Lived in Danville, Illinois, hometown of Dick Van Dyke, Donald O'Connor, Gene Hackman, Bobby Short, and myself. It's mid-size at the time, blue-collar, Hyster, a lot of GM plants and things, they're all shuttered now and the town is kind of drying up sort of. I graduated in 72 from Danville High School, was involved in choir, got involved in junior high and then that transferred into high school. My high school choral teacher, Helen Wolfe, was instrumental in getting me into the drama department or a drama club and I don't, I'm trying to think, I was more behind the scenes than on stage at the time and ended up for some weird quirk the president of the club my senior year. While I was in choir, the music department held their very first two musicals while I was there. My junior year it was Brigadoon. I have a picture that was in the yearbook of me within my kilt with a hand up and it looks very gay, as far as the skirt a little hiked up on the leg. And then the second, the senior year was Little Abner and I was just, I think I was the milkman. But that was really the last theater I did for many years. I went to Danville Junior College to, now it's Community College, and got my degree there. That was the era of Streakers, had my first experience with people streaking down the quad, that was interesting. And then went, transferred to Illinois State University and got my degree in elementary ed. Toby Jenkins: And where was that? John Orsulak: Normal, Illinois. Bloomington Normal, where State Farm is located, their headquarters. Didn't do any theater, got very active with the Newman Club there, was involved in all kind of things. Toby Jenkins: So you were Roman Catholic. John Orsulak: Right, right. Toby Jenkins: Did you, you talked about theater, when did you become a musician? When did you become... John Orsulak: Oh gosh, I did that back as a kid. My grade school that I went to, St. Joseph's, which is no longer in existence, long time. They had a small pipe organ they needed somebody to play. I was, had taken piano and just kind of self-taught myself and would play for services. And then that just kind of evolved over time. I really didn't do anything that I recall in college. When I got out, I had my degree, I worked for the Catholic school. Our parish merged with another one, because that was the time small parishes had to do that. And so I taught at what was then, used to 7 �be St. Patrick's, now is Holy Family. I don't even think it's in existence now. Catholic school was seventh and eighth grade, language arts to start with, was doing no theater at all. Still would do the church music. For me as a kid, it was an escape at recess to go over and practice, just so I didn't have to deal with sports and bullying or anything else on the playground. But a friend of mine who had got her degree in theater at Illinois State, talked me into auditioning for a production, local theater production of Annie Get Your Gun. And so did that, chorus, and then from that point on, I basically got hooked, because the next show I got a featured role, Mr. Snow in Brigadoon, not Brigadoon, [ Pat added Carousel] yeah, that one. Thank you. And then just kind of off and on things there, I decided to get out of education, because I was drawn more toward church music, and went back to the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana to get my undergrad work in music. Had to audition for voice, so I had to take voice as part of it. And when I walked into the audition studio, here is William Warfield. Old Man River himself, sitting there, and I'm singing, you know, I'm in my probably mid-20s by then, and it was, you know, I don't recall anything. It was just kind of a blur. It was just seeing him but did that and then continued working and doing church work, moved to a small parish in Decatur, Illinois, if you know where that is. Was there a year, got fired, didn't work. I was a little too progressive for them because at the Newman Center, it was a very progressive Newman Center, and I mean the priests didn't wear a collar, the the woman who was religious, you know, didn't wear a habit. It was very laid-back, very contemporary. Toby Jenkins: Lots of folk music. John Orsulak: Yes, sang a lot of Godspell, things like that. But I did that and then went back from there, came back to my home parish in Danville, worked there for a while, and then went to Bloomington, which was the sister city of where I went to college, Bloomington Normal. Worked at the church there for a year. It didn't work out, though I did get a chance to participate in the renovation of the church, which was, that was a big deal. It was an old Art Deco style, but then they really stripped a lot out and got it. I don't know what it looks like now. Toby Jenkins: So was your career, just like Pat’s was accounting, was your career in church music? John Orsulak: I thought it was going to be. I did it for, I taught for five years and then went into church music full-time and then when I moved here, that's what I thought I was going to do and continue. And at the time there was only, I think, one parish that had any kind of an opening and just didn't feel, just moving here and experiencing their version of Catholic liturgy, they were so far behind. About ten, I was spoiled with a very progressive bishop and again, he was one that you taught, you called him Ken, you didn't call him Bishop, and it was just very laid-back. During that time when I was in Michigan, it's when I had my first relationship with a man and just kind of then met him [Pat] and the rest was history. Toby Jenkins: So during that time how did you identify and what is your sexual orientation? 8 �John Orsulak: Now I'm definitely gay. Back then it was, I think I'm straight. It didn't really feel right. It was, you know, there was a little experimentation here and there and I had one person at a rehearsal, no, it was a cast party after a show, who pursued me home and I was scared to death. I mean, I went to the garage, turned off the lights, got in the house as quickly as I could, turned off the lights and, you know, now I converse with him occasionally through Facebook and that's, you know, and there's no issue with that at all, but yeah, it was church music for a long time when I moved here and there wasn't anything available. I just went back to what I knew, which was education. So I got back to doing subbing in different school districts. I became popular, so to speak, in Jenks because they got to know me well. They liked me and I was offered a position to open the southeast campus when it first opened and from that point on I worked for Jenks over 20 years, fifth grade mainly. Toby Jenkins: Did Jenks school, did they know you were gay? John Orsulak: I wasn't out, but people knew. They knew and parents figured it out. I think a lot of parents did. The biggest controversy, occasionally he would be with me and I just would sidestep it, but... Pat Hobbs: May I interject here? John Orsulak: Go ahead. Pat Hobbs: So if any of you know about the Malcolm Baldrige Award, it's a highly prestigious award given by the Department of Transportation, no, Department of Commerce. Three or four companies a year win this award. Jenks schools won it. Mesa Products won it three times, twice when I was with them, so we called ourselves the Baldrige Boys. Well, when they made the presentation at the Hyatt, or the Marriott, it's now the Marriott down there, they had a nice little presentation thing at 7 o'clock one night, and I was late getting there, John was sitting at a big table of eight with his principal, and they left the chair open for me to come in next to the principal, and I came in and I sat down, and the principal did this, he actually moved his chair two feet away when I sat next to him. John Orsulak Yeah, that was uncomfortable, to say the least. Pat Hobbs: It was very uncomfortable. Toby Jenkins: And that was what year? John Orsulak: That was, oh gosh, that was... Toward the end. 2 Pat Hobbs: 2011, 20... I was at Mesa seven years, 2010, 2011. Toby Jenkins: So towards the end of your career in teaching at Jenks, did you see the culture change where administration and maybe other teachers were more supportive? John Orsulak: It was never an issue. People met Pat, they were comfortable with him. My co-workers, we never discussed it, but they were fine with him, they had no issues. About the only thing that really was controversial with me was for my 40th, I 9 �decided to pierce my ear. I had just done a production of Annie here locally, had done the whole bald head thing, and I was growing it back. And so I had just a poster, a hoop in. Well, there were parents that were just aghast, and they tried to get me to either, I don't know if they were trying to get rid of the earring or get rid of me, and one of the assistant superintendents, who I knew well and they knew me well, supported me and told them no. And from that point on, it was not... Pat Hobbs: But you even had the support of the superintendent, Kirby Lehman, back then. You know how they do prom pictures in Woodward Park? Every Friday and Saturday night during the spring, you can't find a place to park because all the kids are taking prom pictures. Well, living across the street from the park, our driveway was a turnaround, and we saw Dr. Lehman down the street. He became a really good friend of ours through some work with Theater Tulsa, and he came over and had a glass of wine with us. You know, it was our home, you know, come in while you're getting your pictures made, you know. John Orsulak: What do you do? Do you invite him in? Pat Hobbs: Yeah, invite him in and have a glass of wine. John Orsulak: And that was the year, had a young man drive up in a vintage Mustang with his girlfriend for pictures. And we're out there with a cocktail in hand, gawking at how people are dressed, like we normally did. And this kid looks over to me and says, hi, Mr. O, and he told me his name, and I immediately knew it was a former student of mine, but it was not, it was no big deal. And here are the two of us, I was like, okay, he's figured that out. But, yeah, it's... Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so your house faced Woodward Park. What was the street there? John and Pat: Rockford. Toby Jenkins: Rockford. So, well, you talked a little bit about your career and how you ended up in Tulsa. Did you want to talk any more about what your other interests, like how you got into the theater community here, or, I know you had that day job as an accountant. Pat Hobbs: Oh, yeah, but that was just a day job, you know, it paid the bills. Since 19... I had moved here in 76 and auditioned for a show in 77 for Theater Tulsa and did shows for them ever since. Did shows for all the theater companies here in town just about once, two, three, four times a year, you know, kept it up. Toby Jenkins: I know that you developed a character who became kind of wellknown, kind of a comedian musical character, you want to tell us about that? Pat Hobbs: Danny Day? Danny Day is almost a, oh, I don't know what to call it now…autobiographical story. He started in theater when he was five, playing Tiny Tim. And he was 55, the last time he was on stage he was 55, 60 years old. And he had done all the shows. He had done all the musicals in town. Sometimes two or three times. Sometimes this part. Sometimes he had a lead. Sometimes he had a supporting role. But he knew all the gossip. He knew all the scoop about what was 10 �going on in town. And he knew where the bodies were buried. He knew who slept with whom, and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it was a little character I made up. But it was very autobiographical at the same time. Toby Jenkins: It was very popular. You did it several times. Pat Hobbs: I did, yeah. Toby Jenkins: So you came to Tulsa, what year was it? Pat Hobbs: 76. Toby Jenkins: And I know you were married, and then you divorced. You were in Tulsa, this was, let's talk about before, and then John would have been still in Illinois, correct, during that period. You're men who are figuring yourselves out. Tell me about the first time you heard about AIDS. John Orsulak: Oh gosh. Pat Hobbs: Probably on TV. Probably? John Orsulak: Yeah, I really can't think of a date or a year either. Pat Hobbs: Early to mid 80s. 83, 84, 85. Toby Jenkins: Did you see the impact of that on maybe people that associated with the churches you were working for? Did you see an impact on friends, family? John Orsulak: I didn't really until I moved here. And got involved with the center. Pat Hobbs: And the Names Project. John Orsulak: Yeah, and then Billy. Pat Hobbs: And then my brother. Toby Jenkins: Okay, tell us about that. Pat Hobbs: Billy's five years younger than me. He was born in 1957. And it's a really lovely story, but he came out to me and John. We were all in New York one weekend for New Year's, and he came out to us at the dinner table one night, and we had no idea. I mean, just absolutely no idea. And we had this wonderful relationship for about three or four years. We'd go down to Houston where he lived. He'd come up here to Tulsa. We just had a really grand old gay time. He even had a parking place at J.R.'s, a private parking place at J.R.'s in Houston. He was so popular. But it was right after mother died, and we were, in fact, it was the day after, the afternoon after her funeral, and the four of us boys were sitting on the front porch. You know, it was, the will was cut and dried. We all knew what was gonna go on. And we were talking about the farm, what we were gonna do with the farm. And we're sitting there in our rocking chairs, just rocking back and forth like this. And he stands up and had a cigarette going, and he threw the cigarette out in the yard, and he said, it doesn't make any goddamn difference to me. I'm dying of the 11 �fucking AIDS. And he got up and he walked off in the woods. And about a month later, I got a call from a friend of his in Houston. And he said, I think you need to come down one weekend. You know, come down, see what's going on. So from that point on, John and I, we either drove down or we flew down every other weekend for a year to make sure he had food in the house, care in the house, a clean house, do all the things that we could do from a distance. John Orsulak: And it was right before the cocktail. Pat Hobbs: And it was right before, right before. Toby Jenkins: So it was 1995. Explain the cocktail. Pat Hobbs: 1995. John Orsulak: Gosh, originally it was just ATZ. Then other drugs, combinations came about that helped prolong life. And for Billy, it was just, he was too far gone. Pat Hobbs: Six months, six months. John Orsulak: Luckily he had good hospice care toward the end. Pat Hobbs: We had, yeah, very good hospice care. Toby Jenkins: This would have been what year? Pat Hobbs: 95. Toby Jenkins: And he would have been how old, Pat? Pat Hobbs: 37. Toby Jenkins: 37, yeah. Dennis Neill: Pat, how did your other brothers deal with it? Pat Hobbs: I'm just gonna say that my other brother between the two of us, what do we tell people he died off. That's as much as I'm going to say. But we found a hospice in Houston, Omega House, and it was just like, similar to St. Joseph's here in Tulsa, where the designers had taken a room and designed a room. And it was small, it was there in the Montrose area of Houston. And that's where he spent the last six or eight weeks of his life. And if you recall the pictures you saw on television of people in their last stages, the wasting syndrome, the weight loss, that's what Billy was. His wasn't a, I'm not going to say it wasn't a dignified death. Physically it was not a dignified death. What we did going down there was make sure that he died a dignified death by having food and help and making sure his will was properly prepared before he died. But his was one of the worst, wasting, devastating deaths. John Orsulak: But your nieces were very supportive. Pat Hobbs: They were very supportive. And they were very young, too. Toby Jenkins: Now, you told us that your brother, you and John, had already been together. Had you come out to your family as gay? 12 �Pat Hobbs: You know, I... John Orsulak: First time I met the family was at his father's funeral. Pat Hobbs: At my father's funeral. And, you know, John drove down to Texas and we buried Daddy. And from then on, it was, he was fixing mommy drinks at five o'clock every afternoon. I didn't have to say anything. You know, it was just... Toby Jenkins: So his mother met you. John Orsulak: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Pat Hobbs: And mother's uncle was gay. He had two long-term relationships, Uncle Fred, that we grew up with. So it wasn't a surprise to her. You know, she never said anything. I never said, hey, mom. You know, but he was always there at the house. John Orsulak: Tell the story of when I was moving. When we stopped in Danville. Pat Hobbs: Oh, oh, yeah. This is his dad. So we were moving down from Michigan. And we had a U-Haul van filled with his stuff and had the car towed behind. And we stopped at his folks' house in Danville to spend the night. And it was a tiny little house, and a tiny little bedroom that we were in with a tiny little almost twin bed that we shared. And we got up the next morning and had breakfast and getting ready to move on. And his dad takes me aside. His dad says, take care of my son. John Orsulak: No more words. Pat Hobbs: Take care of my son. John Orsulak: Yeah, it was never discussed. It was just a given. Yeah. Pat Hobbs: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Still welcomed by your family. John and Pat: Oh, very much. John Orsulak: When I come home, where's Pat? Toby Jenkins: Okay. Well, you're fortunate. I think you know that. But you're fortunate that you found each other. And you're fortunate that your families maintain the relationship. Tell us a little bit about some of your, I mean, you both had careers. But tell us a little bit about some of the things that you began to get involved in here in Tulsa. All of the organizations and the things that were passionate to you and the projects. Pat Hobbs: Oh, geez. How can you, you know, over the years, how many boards did I serve on? Including this one, twice. You know, of course, the arts have always been a passion of mine. And I've served on the AHHA board. I was on staff at Mayfest for a while. The Tulsa Garden Center. Anything creative and artistic, I was either on the board or on staff at some point, volunteer staff. And then got involved here at OkEq back in 2001 or 2002, when Brent Ortolani was president. And the previous president was Michelle. Help me out. She's in Kansas now. [Michelle Hoffman.] 13 �Anyway, because of my accounting background, they asked me if I would be treasurer. And this was when the center was located at 21st and Memorial. And I would go down and do the books on Sunday mornings while you'd go to church. I'd go down and do the books at this office we had down there that had no heat. I would bundle up in my coat to go down there. We didn't even have, we had, it wasn't even QuickBooks or Quicken, and it was some very, very elementary software program that we had. And it took maybe a couple hours to go in and write checks. And I think our total budget at the time was maybe $19,000. It was just, yeah, very grassroots at the time, if you will. And the smell from the bar next door, from being open on a Saturday night, I'd come home and have to hang my clothes outside on a Sunday afternoon just to get rid of the smoke that was in the office in the afternoon. But yeah, I served as treasurer for a couple of years until some health issues took over. And I had to relinquish those to Dwight [Kealiher]. And Dwight took over until the organization kept growing and growing and growing. We had $21,000 in the bank. This is one of my reports. 2021. Oh, wow. Just when the Pyramid Project was in its infancy. Toby Jenkins: So John, he said, so were you still playing, doing music for a congregation here at the time? John Orsulak: Not at first. I did do a little bit with one congregation. It didn't last long. Pat Hobbs: You did St. John's for a while. John Orsulak: Right. I was there at Jerome's, but it didn't last terribly long. Toby Jenkins: I think there were some, I don't remember what the reason was, but it just didn't work. Pat Hobbs: Political issues. John Orsulak: Yeah. Yeah. Probably more interpersonal things. But no, I really got back into education. And then because I moved here and we already had the love of theater between us, within a month, I was cast in a show. It wasn't a musical, but started my career with Theater Tulsa and then just kind of branched out into musicals. Toby Jenkins: So when he says he was working on the books and you were at church, are you still active in that? John Orsulak: No. No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. John Orsulak: I haven't been for a long time. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dennis Neill: Excuse me. John, what was your favorite acting role that you've... 14 �John Orsulak: Oh my gosh. That's a tough one. Probably the one that I'm proudest of, it was probably the hardest role I had to do was Juan Peron in Evita. Not only did I have to dye my hair, because it's very gray, the best they could do was a dark brown, but musically it was some of the toughest stuff I ever had to learn. And I'd have to drill and drill and drill because it was very atonal, but it was this critical speech I do on a balcony and just getting through that was a triumph for me because it was a challenge. Otherwise, things came fairly easy, so it was nice to get a challenge that would push you a little bit more. Now, we've kind of aged out. Roles are few and far between. Dennis Neill: So with that Evita role, that was not that long ago, right? John Orsulak: What would you say? 10, 15? Pat Hobbs: It was probably 10 years ago. Dennis Neill: Oh, it was that long ago? Pat Hobbs: Yeah. John Orsulak: Yeah. Dennis Neill: And then Pat, how about you? Your favorite role and then also your favorite board position? All the non-profits you've served on. Pat Hobbs: Oh, my favorite role by far is Zaza, the Drag Queen in La Cage. Dennis Neill: And you did that as Tulsa... Pat Hobbs: Tulsa Project Theater, and it was an equity show, I got equity points. I'm equity eligible for that show. Dennis Neill: And how much did you get paid? Pat Hobbs: Oh, it was a hundred dollars. But the story I like to tell about that is that the end of Act I is when Albin is out there, or Zaza is in her full sequins and feathers and everything, dismisses the entire cast and sings the gay anthem, I Am What I Am, and it closes Act I. And I had the privilege of singing with an 18-piece Tulsa Symphony Orchestra in that show. It's Jerry Herman. It's horns. It's a beautiful orchestration. But here I am on stage by myself for the last five minutes singing this wonderful, wonderful song. And I realized on, it was dress rehearsal, when you're just totally in that role and you're totally singing, and you finish that last number, and you rip that wig off, and the curtain comes down, and there's nobody around you. You've just done the performance of your life, and there is, the cast has gone upstairs to change clothes for Act II. The only person on your left over here is the stage manager who calls curtain. There's nobody else on stage, nobody to catch it. And it's like, so after that happened on dress rehearsal, I asked my co-star Chris, who was my husband in the show, I said, would you please stand offstage on stage right and just hold me when I come off? Because you just exposed every nerve and every emotion in your body singing this wonderful gay anthem. And I just needed 15 �somebody to hold me, you know? So from there on, for every performance, Chris was there to catch me. But I love that. That was my... Dennis Neill: I loved the show. Pat Hobbs: I would love to do that again, too. Favorite board position. Oh, geez. You know, Dennis, my integrity, my professional accounting integrity, has gotten the best of me sometimes, being a board member. And specifically with a couple of arts organizations here in town who were doing the wrong thing and blowing through Harwelden money like they were going to get it next year, you know, get the same amount next year. And they kept blowing through it and they didn't have their policies and procedures in place. I'm not going to say I have the best organization I stayed on, okay, that I served on. But there were some fun moments for all of them. But all of my integrity got to me on a couple of them, really, and just had to walk away. Toby Jenkins: I wanted to ask this. We were... I was going to ask you about... You had worked for these churches and apparently still were connected, so you're no longer involved with the Catholic Church. As a former Catholic, I guess is the way I'd... What do you think about our present Pope? John Orsulak: Hopeful. The previous Pope, I liked him a lot, just he was on the right track. I don't know. I don't still... I'm waiting to see how he deals with people who are gay. The number of people who work for the church who are gay is... I think if people realized that, they'd be astounded. I worked for two gay pastors, very obviously, an assistant. And it's like, okay. Here locally, you just kind of wonder. I see a lot of cassocks and old school looks, and it's like, okay, what are you hiding from? Just not of interest to me anymore. I don't want to play the game. Toby Jenkins: It's still pretty profound though, that the world's number one religious leader for all of Christianity, whether they acknowledge him as their spiritual head, it's pretty significant that the last three or four years we've had a Pope who called us to treat people with dignity regardless of their journey. John Orsulak: John, the current one, he's from Illinois, my home state, and he's a Cubs fan, so you can't beat that. Good combination. Toby Jenkins: He's pretty critical of the United States' present positions on multiple issues, calls us out. Pat and John: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay, I just was curious about that. Now, let me ask you about this. Tell us about Finales. Pat Hobbs: Lord, really? John Orsulak: I need a drink. Pat Hobbs: That was the most expensive MBA anyone has ever gone through. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Pat Hobbs: I think we were kind of like Joseph in The Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat in that we were years ahead of our time, just ahead of our time. We 16 �found a space down here on First Street, and it was my dream to have a restaurant with entertainment, like Lucy and Desi, come down to the club. So we remodeled the first floor of the Jacobs Building down here on First Street and hired James Schrader as our chef, who ended up doing a dang good job of it. We hired people like you. We didn't know what we were doing, but we had fun at it at the same time. We had cast parties for opening night for several of the touring companies that would come in. The opening night cast party for Chicago was our biggest night that we ever had. My God, it was a fabulous evening. Beauty and the Beast, we had their cast party. And for all the local companies here in Tulsa, we have opening night cast parties, a place for people to go. Now they go to Kilkenny's or they go to McNeely's after a show. Toby Jenkins: So your vision was a restaurant with entertainment. Pat Hobbs: With entertainment, and it was before and after the theater. It was within walking distance. It was 476 steps from the Performing Arts Center. So if you're going to the Symphony or the Ballet, come have a nice dinner at 6, walk over to the PAC, come back and have coffee and dessert. Toby Jenkins: And so in those days, downtown was pretty deserted. Pat Hobbs: Oh, downtown. Toby Jenkins: You were it. Pat Hobbs: I think the May Rooms were still open. Toby Jenkins: And then across the railroad tracks was the Spaghetti Warehouse, but that was it. Pat Hobbs: That was it. Toby Jenkins: There were no other restaurants. Pat Hobbs: There was no Art District. Toby Jenkins: No other restaurants. Dennis Neill: And what's the time period? Pat Hobbs: This was 1998. 1998 to 2000. Toby Jenkins: And for our viewers, I was out and I needed a part-time job, and Pat and John, his partner, and his other folks who were there with him, took me under their arm and they taught me how to do fine dining. I didn't know how to, I never drank wine. They had to teach me how to serve it. But it was elegant. Tulsa's power people loved it. Tulsa's people who desired fine dining and entertainment supported it. Pat Hobbs: And we had a 1921 Steinway in the center of the restaurant. John Orsulak: You bought sight unseen. 17 �Pat Hobbs: I bought sight unseen out of California on the internet before they had pictures. John said, this is a drug deal going bad. And they delivered it to our house and I went, oh my God. Toby Jenkins: It was elegant. Pat Hobbs: It was, yeah. Toby Jenkins: But there was nothing in downtown Tulsa. Pat Hobbs: No, there was nothing. Toby Jenkins: Nobody lived in downtown Tulsa. There were no other restaurants. You were definitely pioneers of the revitalization and the restoration of our urban core, which we all take for granted. And younger people today just assume that it's always been like this. Because there was a period when downtown Tulsa was the place to be. And then everything left downtown Tulsa. And you and your colleagues were trying to, you could see it before others couldn't. Pat Hobbs: Well, thank you. Yeah, we just wanted to, the desire was to build it near the Performing Arts, find a place near the Performing Arts Center. And we looked two or three places before then. And the story goes, the name at the time was Finale's Cabaret and Restaurant. That is how we initially, and the word cabaret in Oklahoma in the 1990s did not mean the type of cabaret entertainment you see in New York City. That is musical theater, that's piano, piano bar, cabaret means strip clubs. So we found this place over here on Cincinnati and 2nd, right behind what was then Oklahoma Tire and Supply. It's now the Chinese place. And it was a twostory run-down building and we were gonna buy the building and renovate it. And then the word got over to the Williams Companies that cabaret, that a strip club was gonna open up across the street from the Williams Company's tower. And they came in and bought it out from under us and tore the building down because they didn't want a strip club because cabaret meant strip club. So we hunted for a couple of other places and found this one over on 1st Street, which wasToby Jenkins: And that was an old historical hotel. Pat Hobbs: That was an old historical hotel that was built in 21. Dennis Neill: And who was the landlord? Pat Hobbs: You know, the landlord, the legal landlord that owned the building or the one that... The legal landlord was a guy by the name of Ferretti and he lived in Oklahoma City. And he was this little short Italian guy who drove a big fancy Mercedes. I think he was mob related. But he owned the building and then Mike Sager got involved in it. And Michael Sager was the mouthpiece. And after we vacated the building, Sager had his name put at the top of the building, the Sager, but it's since gone. It's now Jacob, since Jacob's building again. But yeah, Michael Sager was the mouthpiece for Mr. Ferretti. Toby Jenkins: So this was going, and for our viewers, I was a waiter. And that is where I met Mary and Sharon Bishop Baldwin. They were there celebrating their anniversary. I was their waiter. I mean, it was a very, very elegant, impressive place 18 �to be. But I want to bring us to the place of closing night was what was going on in the world, closing night. Pat Hobbs: It was Y2K. You know, we had had, like I said, the night of Chicago was our biggest night. We had a private party in between the dinner hour and the cast party, and it was a big, and something happened in 1999, and the world was predicted to go dark because of the changeover, Y2K, 2000. Everything was gonna go, you're gonna lose your power. Nobody wanted to make New Year's Eve reservations. The year before, we had two turns. We turned that restaurant twice on New Year's Eve. This New Year's Eve, I think we may have had 80 reservations, and that was it. So we ended up catering a dinner for 37 up to the IT people up at Williams. So they, because they were on staff that night because we all knew the lights were gonna go out, and they didn't. Toby Jenkins: Oh yeah, we were afraid planes would fall out of the sky. Your current model cars would just shut down. Your computers would. Pat Hobbs: But you know, we were so hoping. I mean, you know, because restaurants are, you know, your margins are that big in a restaurant. And that was gonna get us through the next few months, you know, what we made off of New Year's Eve, and it just didn't happen. So we just kind of, we turned our own lights out. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so I want our viewers to know that it was Pat Hobbs' idea to revitalize downtown Tulsa. Pat Hobbs: Oh no. Toby Jenkins: And you know, that, in 1999, he saw the vision, and so the city councilors should name a street after you. Pat Hobbs: And like I said, it was a very expensive MBA. Toby Jenkins: So, you're together, you're in Tulsa, you have your careers, you have your interests. Dennis has already questioned you about your involvement in all the non-profits. During this time, what else has been going on in your life, and what was passionate to you? Pat Hobbs: Gardening, gardening. We loved our yard over on Rockford, designed, initially designed by Dave Collins, did a fantastic job. We even brought cypress trees up from the farm. We had some cypress trees cut and Dave designed a beautiful cypress deck for us. And that was our passion for many, many years was our yard. And John's even a Linnaeus, was Woodward Park Teaching Garden. John Orsulak: Yeah, yeah. Formerly Linnaeus. Pat Hobbs: And still, you still volunteer every Tuesday. John Orsulak: Tuesday, now, yeah. Toby Jenkins: With who? John Orsulak: The Teaching Garden at Woodward Park, formerly Linnaeus, that's a whole story. But, yeah, I do that just to keep my fingers in it, because it's, it was, well, 19 �when we moved from the house, we moved downtown for three years while we were waiting for Heartland Commons to be built. And we really had no place to do, I could still go out and do some things at the garden. He had nothing, and it was driving him nuts. And that's been the one blessing of our current home is we've got a yard that's pretty much nothing was there and gave him a place to play. Dennis Neill: And give us a little more background on your thoughts about forming Heartland Commons, your passion about that, some co-housing with you. John Orsulak: Oh, gosh. Pat Hobbs: Okay, real quick, I'll give you the condensed, real quick condensed version. Performer Melanie Fry, we all know Melanie Fry here in town, been performing for 50 years, just did a production of Love Letters back in, for Valentine's. Melanie thought she and her girlfriends would get together and play water volleyball and drink wine in the summertime. And they thought, well, wouldn't this be a great idea if we all, as we age, all bought homes in the same cul-de-sac, and we can all live together and watch and take care of each other. Well, as they researched that, they found the co-housing website, and co-housing was developed in Denmark back in the 60s. And one thing led to another, they had an introductory meeting, Melanie is no longer involved in the project, she was for a little while, but she got us started along with four other families that started this journey back in 2015, I think. John Orsulak: Sounds about right. Pat Hobbs: It's been about 11 years when the initial conversation got started. But it's all about aging in place, keep going. John Orsulak: Well, it's, it's, you get, you, it's about community and having a support network that you can depend on. The house is secondary, it's nice to have, it's a new build, the, you're, you walk through the community to do what you need to do. If you're going to get mail, it's kind of like a condo place where you do that, however, if somebody's on their front porch, in co-housing, you're considered fair game. And you can be, you can visit and interact. If they're on their back porch, you usually leave them alone. That's a private space, but you're walking to get your mail, which normally would take you what, five, 10 minutes, depending on where you were in the community. For us, and that would turn into a half hour or more because you keep running into people who want to visit, who want to interact In some communities, that means a glass of wine, bottle of beer, sitting on the rail of the porch and just interacting and it's, it makes for a healthier lifestyle for older, for senior co-housing compared to traditional co-housing that is multi-generational. But it just enhances, gives you more opportunity for interaction, stimulation. You've got somebody to depend on if you need a ride, if you're needing an egg. You put it out there, somebody, you'll end up with a dozen eggs just because people want to help you out. Toby Jenkins: Very secure. 20 �Pat Hobbs: Very secure. Pat Hobbs: And you kind of look out for each other. John Orsulak: Right. We're basically our own neighborhood watch. That's evolved. We've been there over a year and we've had a few issues, but we've been working them out and had the Riverside Police, which is just two doors down from us, come over one evening and talk to us about safe practices and what to do and what not to do. And it's good to have those relationships. Toby Jenkins: So it's intentional housing, not just organic where you may know your neighbors and they sell their house and a new person moves in and you may not care for them. These are all people you chose to be around. Pat Hobbs: Everybody's become their best friends now. And it's kind of like family too because you have personalities. And sometimes your personality is buttheads, especially in a, what do I want to say, a homeowner's association meeting. And that happens everywhere. But yeah, we have common meals twice or three times a week. And it's where one of the residents will be responsible for buying the provisions. And we have a commercial kitchen in our common house and they are a team will do this evening meal for six o'clock and do the cleanup and everybody chips in $7 for their meal. And we all got, we had how many first St. Patrick's Day about, 28 or 29 of us and had this St. Patrick's meal with corned beef and hash and cabbage and it's community meal. It's all about community. John Orsulak: Yeah, it's got its pros, it's occasional cons. But overall, it's been a good experience. Toby Jenkins: Let me deviate a little bit from this because I do feel like it was good that we talk about that because there are going to be more of us that are older and we, instead of just letting housing happen, this is you purposely planning, this is what… John Orsulak: Oh, we looked at over 50 properties when we were in the area, north, south, east, downtown. And actually, we rejected the property we're currently in originally but came back to it and we realized this is where we want to be. Pat Hobbs: And it's five acres located at 71st and Riverside in that vicinity and it was an old farm, two and a half acres per lot. So we took the five acres and our community pitched in and we bought the property, we secured the bank loan to do the construction. John Orsulak: We designed it. Pat Hobbs: We had consultants come in and design it. John Orsulak: But we have, the nice thing with co-housing is you have input. You're not dictated like a traditional senior living. Nothing wrong with them, if that's your thing, good. But we set the rules. We have our own, we call them agreements that we've developed so that everybody's on the same page. You're not told what to do. You can do as much as you want. If you want to be active, you can be active. If you 21 �want to stay in your home, you can stay at home. We've got a mahjong group. We've got puzzles and TV and movie nights and it's just kind of like, okay, that floats your boat. You can be there. If not, you can just stay at home and curl up with your dog or cat if you have one. And yeah. Toby Jenkins: So thank you for sharing about this because this is, we've covered kind of a lot of areas. I want to, what a lot of people may know you for is here at the Lynn Riggs Theater in the Rainbow Room. Tell us a bit about your, just like Pat had the vision for the revitalization of downtown Tulsa with his pioneering days, he had a vision of he and John the Rainbow Room. And tell us a little bit about your vision for that in the Lynn Riggs Theater. Pat Hobbs: Well, let's go back to the 13 bullets for $13. That kind of, in my view, it kind of kicked this whole thing off when we had to replace the front windows. And that snowballed into basically an international fundraising campaign. But turning the garage downstairs into a theater. Thanks to David Nelson's help and Dennis's help and everybody else, I mean there were dozens of us on that team that were consulting on this thing. But we opened it in February of 2018. 2018, which was eight years ago. And I thought about it for a while and I thought, you know, let's do something fun with it. And I went over, I made the proposal to you, Toby. I remember going over to your house that afternoon and saying, I'd like to do this. Take it to the board or see what you have to do. And came up with the idea of Third Thursdays in the Rainbow Room. Which would be the third Thursday of every month. We do musical presentations. Now I say musical presentations. Tulsa has a plethora of talent in this town. And when people do their 32nd Chamber of Commerce elevator speech, they always talk about the arts. The philharmonic, the symphony, the ballet, the opera. But they don't really talk about the musical theater company. We have such a talented group of people in this town. And that was my vision, is to get some of these people, when they're not doing a show, to come in and do an hour and a half show. Come in and do a two-hour show. Do your own thing. If you want to do a one man show, do a one man show. If you've got half a dozen people, come in. And they're thematic. And I think one of the neatest things that I ever saw come out of this was a knight of musical theater. K-N-I-G-H-T, a knight of musical theater. And it was all songs from Camelot and Something's Rotten and Spamalot. And it was all songs about knights in musical theater. We've had some wonderful talent come through here though. We only had two presentations in 2020 because of COVID. But we've had over 60, 61, I counted them today. We've had 61 individual presentations as part of the third Thursdays. And now it's just Thursdays in the Rainbow Room because you can't just do the third Thursday. There's so much going on in town that people schedule. You've got to have it listed on a Thursday. But we've had 61 different performers. Janet Rutland, who is one of the most talented singers in Northeast Oklahoma, does her show in the Rainbow Room every two years. The latest one she did is around the Hollywood Campfire with John Wooley. And it has taken off, and she has performed that show all around Oklahoma this last year, but she premiered it here. Travis Guillory did his first drag show here. And it was three years ago, so it was 2023, I think he did his first drag Christmas. And look at him, Travis is now Miss Gay America. 22 �Toby Jenkins: Miss Gay America USA. Pat Hobbs: But we've had some wonderful, wonderful talent through this place. And I think it's exposed the center also. Having this little theater down here has exposed the Tulsa community to what we have. Many people have come in to see their friend perform, not just theater friends, but you know, like Janet, some of Janet's followings. They didn't even know it existed. They didn't know the Equality Center existed. You know, so they come down here and they, with our bar now and our seating, you know, they just, it's just like a little nightclub on a Thursday night. Dennis Neill: And Pat, do you think the opportunity for the performers to pocket a little bit of money, is that kind of a unique opportunity for some of these performers compared to the rest of them? Pat Hobbs: You know, absolutely, when you do musical theater, when you do community theater here in Tulsa, you don't get paid. It costs you two or three, $400 a show with meals and gas and costumes. But here you've got a chance to curate your own show. And the split that we've done with ticket sales is that the performers get 70% of the ticket sales. 30% goes back to the center. And you know, in most cases, that's eight, 900, $1,100 that goes back to the performer, you know, which, I don't know, you know, pays your pianist. It keeps, it's just a little enticement to keep people going, you know? Yeah. Dennis Neill: And knowing how important theater has been for both of you all this time, what do you think is the health of our theater community and where do you see it going in the future? Much like we've seen in other groups, there's a lot of small spinoffs and a lot of new theaters emerging. Are we healthy enough to support these and how do you feel like the direction is going to go for live theater? John Orsulak: That concerns me at this stage. Having moved, when I moved here, summer stage was still going on at the Performing Arts Center and that meant that was the only opportunity to do a musical for most, when Pat was doing Little Shop, or not Little Shop, Best Little Whorehouse when I moved here. And that was it. You had one show, one musical, and there were no touring companies coming around as I recall. A lot of straight plays, comedies, dramas, but if you aren't into that, it gave you no avenue. Now, I fear there have become so many splintered groups and so many organizations now within the community that it's almost spread too thin. They have so many opportunities now where these kids can do multiple shows in a year, multiple musicals in a year. But are there enough audience people to support it? It gets expensive. This past month, I don't know how many shows were going on, and the performers who want to go out and support their friends, they can't afford and they have to pick and choose. Okay, I can go to this show, but I'm gonna have to skip this one, or can I get to an IVR to see a rehearsal? Pat Hobbs: Our budget only allows us to go see so much. We're seeing, this is the third weekend of three weekends since we've been back, and it's like, okay, do we want to go? I want to go see my friends, but you know, yeah, there's a finite audience out there, I think, but they're doing some fantastic stuff. They're just doing some awesome, awesome shows. 23 �John Orsulak: And a lot of the, like Theatre Tulsa, for example, they've had ebbs and flows, the dips. So when I was there, it was an upswing, and then it had a major dip funding-wise, and they struggled, and they almost went under. But they clawed their way back up, and they've been able to, I think, restore, you know, there are always things you're always going to disagree with, as far as philosophy or structure. But, you know, Theatre Tulsa has that studio now, that used to be a dollar store, and it seems to be doing well. Pat Hobbs: It kind of makes me mad that they did that, because we've got this beautiful 100-seat theater here that they can use, but now they're using their own, because it doesn't cost them anything, you know? John Orsulak: But the nice thing with this theater, with Lynn Riggs, is it is small. It's a black box, so you have lots of flexibility on how it's used. You've got people, like Eli, running things, as far as the tech part of it. And it's big enough to do some good, solid productions, but it's small enough to be... Pat Hobbs: And we have done some really neat things here. I mean, when the Lynn Riggs can host the Tulsa Opera in a performance of I Love You, You're Perfect, Now Change, and do the job that they did, it was a beautiful production. And even Chamber Music Tulsa, you know, was booked in here. So, it's taken a few years, but, you know, word's getting out. Toby Jenkins: Well, I may be overreaching, and Dennis can slap me, but that's because of you. You made it happen. He made sure the resources were there, but you sold Tulsa on Lynn Riggs' theater. Dennis Neill: Yeah, you've helped bring Bill and Jason aboard to carry on some interesting... Pat Hobbs: I know, and I'm so, so excited about those two guys who bring just another level of energy, another age, another age group, and the way Bill and Jason have embraced the community, and the way the community have embraced Bill and Jason, to have this new Broadway Clubhouse come out here later this month is just so exciting. I can't wait. Toby Jenkins: Okay, I just want to ask you, I had a situation that...How does it feel to be the face of the gay community as an older couple? How does it feel? And by that I'm talking about the day that you were on the front cover of Life Senior Services. Pat Hobbs: Vintage Magazine. Toby Jenkins: Their very first openly gay married couple in Oklahoma. And how did that feel? And did you get any... I know that's incredible support, but I want to know, have y'all had experience pushback at your life in this time? John Orsulak: No, we've been told some people, what, three times over the years. I'm not saying we're normalized, but we certainly were nothing to be afraid of. And we believe in the community. We're the only gay couple at Heartwood Commons. That doesn't mean we won't have more, but we're accepted, we're not shunned. 24 �Pat Hobbs: I just wish that I had a publicist, because all these things just came about. I mean, there was no rhyme or reason. I don't have an agent. To have all these things happen, you know, Tulsa People three times, and Vintage Magazine, and then there's a couple more. They just happen. They just happen. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Vintage Magazine goes to 400,000 people. Did you know that? Pat Hobbs: No, I did not. Toby Jenkins: It's one of the largest senior publications in the country. Pat Hobbs: I feel honored. Well, you know how that came about. Toby Jenkins: No, you tell us. Pat Hobbs: My post-retirement gig at the Garden Center, I was keeping their books, and there was a young gentleman that was doing an internship in communications, coordinating website, Facebook, Instagram, and all of this. Actually, Vintage Tulsa called him to find…they wanted a face for their issue, and he had the office right next to him. He says, hey, Pat, you and John want to do this? I said, okay. It didn't even dawn on me that he could have picked another couple. He could have picked a heterosexual couple. He could have picked an individual. But he just leaned over and said, hey, you and John want to do this? They need somebody for the cover of this magazine. Oh, okay. But we never got any derogatory feedback on that. Never got any hate mail. Toby Jenkins: So you may not have gotten hate mail, and you may not have gotten overt rejection or harassment. As a couple, have there been times when you've known if you were welcome in the room or not? I mean, you talked earlier about the crews. Yeah, the Malcolm Baldrige. Pat Hobbs: Well, the Baldrige Award thing, where the principal moved his chair two feet away. You know, at this day and age, not so much anymore. John Orsulak: Yeah, I just say this is my husband, and like it or love it. Pat Hobbs: You know, honest to God, since the legalization back in 2014, that's what we do. We introduce each other as our husbands, not partner, not roommate. I mean, and it's more accepted, isn’t it? John Orsulak: I just say it. Toby Jenkins: Well, that leads us right into kind of the closing of our time together. What would you say, I mean, our situations, we're seeing so much pushback against our community, on public policy. Today, the lead story in Tulsa, Oklahoma and the Tulsa World was state agencies, not state-funded organizations or agencies or colleges or universities or schools, could not acknowledge Pride Month. They couldn't fly a rainbow flag. Pat Hobbs: Well, let me tell you a story about what happened over at the Garden Center a couple of years ago. Dennis, thank you for the flag. May I tell this story? So, you supplied... 25 �Dennis Neill: Tulsa Progress Flags. Pat Hobbs: Tulsa Progress Flags. And it was flown, the Garden Center manager, Lee, flew it over the teaching garden and was instructed that the only time that the flag could be flown was during the month of June and immediately take it down the first of July. You know, half the staff at the garden center at the time identifies as LGBTQ+. And it was a city, it's city property. Take the flag down. Just made me so mad. You know, and this whole thing with the flag, it doesn't make any sense. What have we done differently over the last 20 years? Why now? Why are you offended? Toby Jenkins: So what would be your messages to those who come after us or for young activists? I always like to say it this way. In a hundred years, archaeologists are going to dig through the ruins of this property and they're going to discover that there was a day in America where there had to be LGBT centers and they uncover our archives. So the archaeologists, when they uncover your interview, what would be your message for the future, for those who come after us, and for young LGBTQ people and who identify as queer today? John Orsulak: Gosh, it's changed so much over the my lifetime. I have a former student of mine, fifth grade. I remember seeing him doing pirouettes on the playground. And I pegged him. At least I thought I did. And then later on, sure enough, and he's very now very active in the arts community here in Tulsa, has a husband, supportive family, and it's just like, oh, you know, it's become normal, much more normalized, and I hope it continues to be normalized where we don't have to live with any fear. That it's just, we're kind of at the point where it's like, I don't give a damn anymore. You know, you live with who I am, how I am, and if you don't like it, then go away or do whatever and I'll survive. I'm a worker bee, so it doesn't bother me. Pat Hobbs: Well, I've got my political comments, some that need to remain. I need to sit on it for a minute, but these bigots out there, these right-wing bigots, why now? What have we done? Like I said, what have we done? You still get your hair cut by a gay barber, okay? You still buy flowers at a gay florist, don't you? I don't understand why this movement is... And the one thing that scares me, though, is that they call them immigration detention centers for all these warehouses, that these empty warehouses, they're going to put all these immigration…I don't think it's going to be mostly for immigrants. I think it's going to turn out they're going to pick and choose what part of society goes in these places. That's just my opinion. I don't think there's enough immigrants to fill up all these warehouses. Toby Jenkins: Any other things for the future or for those who come after us or for today, for people who are wanting to know what to do. John Orsulak: And use your resources, the Equality Center. I hope it survives and continues to flourish because you need this. You need support. You know, if you're not alone, they need to know that. Pat Hobbs: The one thing I have learned from the Rainbow Room and the people who come here is that we are designated here at OkEq as a safe place. Always have been. And I guess it was during Pride or maybe that first Pride piano thing that we 26 �had a couple of years ago. But I had a lady come up to me and say, I feel safe here. Yes, that's why we need this place. Toby Jenkins: Well, it is March 19th, 2026 and today our interviewees, our special guests have been John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs. And they've been together 36 years. And joining us have been Dennis Neill, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, and Amanda Thompson, the archivist. And this is Toby Jenkins. Thank you so much for tuning in. 27 � https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/0655db9527d9c965e3ae77cf9ab9ecd7.mp4 5fe3a81c4475dc5db209b6fe8bc46c29 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Interview Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John Orsulak, Pat Hobbs, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 19, 2026 Subject The topic of the resource John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Oral History Interview from March 19, 2026 Description An account of the resource This interview with Pat Hobbs and John Orsulak explores their 36-year relationship following a chance encounter at a church, their careers and longtime involvement in theater and music. They also highlight their activism within the LGBTQ community in Tulsa and the vision they had and implemented to bring the Lynn Riggs Theatre at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center to life. They share personal stories, including the passing of Pat’s brother to AIDS, insights on community involvement, and their vision for a more inclusive future. 2026 AIDS AIDS/HIV Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill HIV/AIDs interview John Orsulak Lynn Riggs Theatre OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Pat Hobbs Toby Jenkins transcript video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/fe275c248ba0dbafa7183acaf093ec10.pdf 4d660208dae603563b4e8c3a5a02f83a PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Warren Ray Duvall Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: February 10, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, February 23, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Warren Duvall Summary This interview with Warren explores his life story, from growing up on a family farm in Oklahoma to his military service and his journey as a gay man. Warren shares personal insights into his experiences with sexuality, military service during Vietnam, and navigating life in Oklahoma and Florida. This interview provides a deep insight into the life experiences of a long-time LGBTQ+ community member, covering personal stories, community involvement, and the evolution of LGBTQ+ rights and health issues over decades. Keywords Oklahoma history, LGBTQ+ journey, military service, Vietnam era, personal stories, Oklahoma farm, gay life, military healthcare, social change, personal growth LGBTQ+ history, community activism, AIDS awareness, gay rodeo, bear clubs, senior LGBTQ+ support, Tulsa Key Topics ● Family farm history in Oklahoma ● Military service during Vietnam era and Japan ● Journey of sexual identity and coming out Personal stories of LGBTQ+ life and community involvement ● The impact of AIDS on the community and healthcare responses ● The development of gay rodeo, bear events and community events ● Support for LGBTQ+ elders and seniors Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 02:02 Family Farm History in Oklahoma 03:53 Growing Up in Muldrow and School Life 2 �08:01 Experiences with Segregation and Community 12:01 Post-High School Education and Military Draft 14:53 Military Service in U.S, Navy in the Vietnam Era and Stationing Japan 19:58 Reflections on Military Service and Vietnam Memorial 21:02 Realization of Sexual Orientation 24:57 Exploring Gay Identity in the Military and Florida 29:54 Relationships and Coming Out to Family 40:08 Life in Tulsa and Connecting with the LGBTQ+ Community 48:04 First Experiences in Gay Bars and Social Life 54:59 Personal Relationships and Life Changes 02:29 Meeting the First Partner and Early Community Life 06:55 First Encounters with AIDS and Healthcare Response 14:53 Community Involvement and Fundraising Efforts 24:57 The Role of Gay Rodeo and Cultural Identity 34:55 Support for Elders and the Impact of COVID-19 45:11 Reflections on a Life of Service and Activism 54:59 Advice for Younger Generations and Future Outlook Warren Duvall Oral History Interview Feb 10, 2026 Toby Jenkins: All right, this is Toby Jenkins and Amanda Thompson, the archivist at Oklahomans for Equality, and Dennis Neill, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality. Here we are in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library for our archival interview with a wonderful person. Your name, please? Warren Duvall: Warren Ray Duvall. Toby Jenkins: And you live here in Tulsa, Warren? Warren Duvall: I live here in Tulsa, I've returned. I've been back for six years. I lived here for 33 years. Had to go back to the farm for 13 years. And we sold off half of it, but that included the house. Toby Jenkins: And where is the farm? Warren Duvall: It's south of Muldrow, Oklahoma. The farm's about two miles from the Arkansas River down there. Toby Jenkins: Oh, wonderful. So, in Tulsa, and I'm still- What county is that? Warren Duvall: That's Sequoyah County. Toby Jenkins: But you're still in Oklahoma? Warren Duvall: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Sallisaw and Sequoyah? Warren Duvall: Yeah, Sallisaw is the county seat. 3 �Toby Jenkins: All right, so Warren, where were you born? Warren Duvall: Well, I was conceived in Oklahoma. I was the first member of my siblings, and there was four of us. My mother and my three siblings were all born at home in the same bedroom. I was the first one that they took my mother to the hospital, and I was delivered in St. Edward's Mercy Hospital in Fort Smith, Arkansas. Toby Jenkins: I know it well. That's where my son was born. Toby Jenkins: So, are you from down around that area? That's where your farm is? You told me. Is that a payor's farm? Warren Duvall: Yeah, it's 15 miles east of the Arkansas-Oklahoma border. Toby Jenkins: And so that's down by Muldrow, as we talked earlier. How long has the farm been in your family? Warren Duvall: It's my mother's father. He came there in 1900 and started buying land from some of the Indians that, at that point, had been allotted 160 acres or whatever they gave back then. And so he started buying up land. At one point, he had about 500 acres. So he was a big farmer. I wouldn't say he was a rancher, but he ran a dairy also. So he was a pretty big-time farmer over the years. Toby Jenkins: So this farm has now been in your family over 100 years. Warren Duvall: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And your mother was born there, your siblings. But they took you, she went to the hospital for you. Warren Duvall: For me. Toby Jenkins: And what year would that have been? Warren Duvall: That was, my Lord… Toby Jenkins: Your date of birth. Warren Duvall: December 20th, 1947. Toby Jenkins: 1947, right after the war. Warren Duvall: Right, I’m a post-war baby. Toby Jenkins: So you were born there in Muldrow. Did you grow up there? How long did you? Warren Duvall: I grew up on the farm just south of Muldrow. The only part of being in Arkansas was, that's where the hospital was. So I went across the border and was born in Fort Smith, Arkansas at St. Edward's Hospital. Toby Jenkins: Did you go to school in Muldrow, or was there? 4 �Warren Duvall: I started out in a little country school called the Lee's Chapel, which is the Lee's Chapel community. When I started, they had eight grades there. And probably, I'd say 35 students. And after a couple years, they went down to one teacher because the population started reducing, it was worse for the students. And so for probably the third and fourth grade, we were just sixth grade. And then we just were part of the Muldrow. Toby Jenkins: You were consolidated with Muldrow? Warren Duvall: Consolidated, well, yeah, yes. Toby Jenkins: Did you go to high school in Muldrow? Warren Duvall: Did everything else outside of a very short period of time in Oklahoma City for two weeks in the fourth grade. I did that when I left Lee's Chapel and went to Muldrow in the fifth grade, all the way through graduation. Toby Jenkins: So you would have graduated from high school in 1966 from Muldrow? Warren Duvall: From Muldrow High School. Toby Jenkins: Okay, now did you, y'all lived on the farm. Did your family farm? I mean, is that what your parents did for their careers? Warren Duvall: Well, by the time, I don't know exactly when, but when I was a very small child, they had to, dad was farming the farm. Dad had a drinking problem and it was my mother's farm. She would never sign him over to it because she always said he'd just lose it. And so anyway, we farmed it. We started leasing out the bottom land, which is the farm land, crop land, the upland, the pasture land. We still kept that, kept cattle. And my brothers and dad and mom all had horses. I never had a horse back then. I rode behind my dad a lot. Used to, you know, he'd start galloping some and I was about to go, bouncing. Hanging on for dear life. Toby Jenkins: You lived out in the country. Did you ride a school bus? Warren Duvall: School bus. Toby Jenkins: What were your interests in school? Warren Duvall: In school, recess. Warren Duvall: Geography, history. Actually, I didn't enjoy history in school. You learn to enjoy history after Toby Jenkins: So were you in like school activities? Warren Duvall: Well, at least chapel, the school, there really wasn't much school activity. Field trips and things like that. But there were no active sports for us. We just did, I guess you'd call it intramural things on the playground. Toby Jenkins: So when you got to Muldrow, were you involved in school activities there? 5 �Warren Duvall: In junior high, I played basketball and football in the summer of the eighth grade, or in the spring. Two weeks before the school year was out, I came down with a rare disease called infectious mononucleosis. It was also, the nickname of it was the kissing disease. I don't know if you've heard that, but that's because the soldiers picked it up in Europe and brought it back to the United States. I was one of two people in the county that had it that year. I have no idea where it came from. Toby Jenkins: Were you kissing soldiers? Warren Duvall: Not yet. Toby Jenkins: So that was there in Muldrow. Warren Duvall: So after that, they wouldn't let me play sports for three years, and by the end, I didn't feel like it. Toby Jenkins: Were you in choir, or in a band, or? Warren Duvall: No, boys didn't do that in Muldrow High School. Toby Jenkins: But you worked on a farm, so you had to do chores. Warren Duvall: Rigorous farm chores. Toby Jenkins: And you had to do all that before you went to school? Warren Duvall: Oh yeah, got up at the crack of dawn and milked the cows and fed the cows. Toby Jenkins: Just out of curiosity, you said you graduated in 1966. Integration would have been an issue that would have been happening all around you in Oklahoma. Do you remember if your school class was an integrated school in Muldrow? I mean, were there black students? Yeah. Native American students? Warren Duvall: The Muldrow had a one through six black elementary school. For black students. Toby Jenkins: Segregated. Warren Duvall: Segregated. But then once they came to junior high, it was integrated. And I, it was before I graduated, they closed down the elementary school, so the black elementary school. So they were fully integrated. Toby Jenkins: By the time you were in high school? Warren Duvall: Yeah, I would think so. Toby Jenkins: Now, I know that Fort Chaffee's not far from there. Warren Duvall: Correct. Toby Jenkins: So there's kind of a large population of Cuban refugees, Vietnamese refugees. Did you go to school with any Vietnamese or Cuban? 6 �Warren Duvall: No, because that was after. Toby Jenkins: That was later. Warren Duvall: Yeah, that was much later. Toby Jenkins: So you graduated from high school in Muldrow. Now, did you go to the north side high school or the south side high school, or was there just one high school? Warren Duvall: Just one high school. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And still that way. Warren Duvall: My class graduated 103. Toby Jenkins: Well, now, that's a big class for an Oklahoma. That was the biggest class. Warren Duvall: Well, it was the biggest class they ever had. Warren Duvall: It was several years before they exceeded that. Of course, it's a lot more now. Toby Jenkins: And you graduated in 1966. Just out of curiosity, do you remember anything about our times, like your favorite music or your favorite movie star or your favorite... Warren Duvall: Well, I loved to dance. We partied a lot. This is junior high only. We didn't do that particularly in elementary school years. I don't know. Toby Jenkins: You remember your favorite music, your favorite musician? Warren Duvall: Just, you know, rock and roll, bebop, whatever you want, swing dance and all that sort of thing. And then by senior high, we had a little group of guys for a band and we had picnics and we'd... fill up one of those covered picnic areas. We did that a lot in my senior year. Toby Jenkins: Were you in the band? Warren Duvall: No, no. I have no musical talent. No one in my family does. Toby Jenkins: Just danced. Warren Duvall: But loved to dance. Toby Jenkins: Now, you get finished with high school. What did you do after that? Warren Duvall: I went almost directly. I graduated at the end of May, and I went into the radiology program at St. Edwards Mercy Hospital in July of 66. It was a two-year program, hospital based. Most nursing programs and lab techs and radiology students and so forth, the hospital owned back then. Even OU had a program, but it was a certificate program. It wasn't a degreed program at that time. So, I have a graduation certificate in licensed radiology for 40 years. 7 �Toby Jenkins: Through St. Edwards in... Warren Duvall: That was my school. Toby Jenkins: And was that where you went to work right after that? Warren Duvall: For a short period of time. Toby Jenkins: And then what happened? Warren Duvall: Well, we graduated in July and in August I got my Selective Service Physical Request. So, I went down, well, with Dad and Mom's advice, go join... Dad was in the Navy. So, he said, go down and join the Navy. I don't want you in infantry. Toby Jenkins: So, you had your certification in radiology. So, you had a medical background. Warren Duvall: Correct. Toby Jenkins: And you got your draft notice. What war was the United States fighting? Warren Duvall: The Vietnam War. Big time. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember your feelings when that happened, when you got that notice? I mean, by then you're a young man, you're already having a career path. Do you remember... Warren Duvall: Well, back then, the Selective Service, once you got out, whoever you were employed with, they had to hire you back. I don't know if it's still a policy or not because it's voluntary now. But, so when I got out, and I did radiology in the Navy, that typical military. The Navy had programs in schools, so they had A, B, and C as you went up the line. So, they had their own radiology program. So, they made me go, obviously through boot camp, and then they made me go to a core school for six months, even though I was a radiographer. And then when I got... I joined the Naval Reserve, and that was an obligation for six years, minimum six years. Two years active duty. And I did about, of six years, I did about half of it active and about half of it active reservist. I had to go to meetings during the week and summer camps. And that was from 68 to 74. Toby Jenkins: Now, were you ever deployed into Vietnam? Warren Duvall: I wasn't deployed to Vietnam, but I was sent to the US Naval Hospital in Yokosuka, Japan. We got medevacs every day from Vietnam, which was mostly Marines, all kinds of shapes. Some of them didn't make it. Some might get a little emotional here. You know, these guys came in all kinds of shapes. Some of them didn't leave the hospital alive. You would have incidents like you would maybe doing a portable x-ray in ICU. And let's say the patient was, you know, lost his legs and one arm. And he was delirious and had a fever. I was trying to do a portable xray on him. And he kept calling for his mom. He kept wanting me to scratch his foot. He 8 �didn't have legs, you know. So those kinds of things. Now, a corpsman on the floor wouldn't be directly involved with patient care. As a radiographer, I just dealt with them when we were performing some kind of radiology procedure on them. We had a separate unit upstairs for the officers. They were cared for separately. Got more care, more specific one-on-one type of care than the ward guys did. Some of the guys would come down with diseases in Vietnam. The U.S. Naval Hospital was the Navy's Far East Hospital. So we were the primary hospital for, you know, let's say a soldier or a sailor was injured seriously or moderately. They would come to us. We would do triage. The triage initially took place in Vietnam. And then they sent them to us for a lot of correcting surgeries and things. Then they were sent to the state side, to the military hospitals for major repairs. Additional medical care. Toby Jenkins: So you had to stabilize them. So you were in a trauma unit, basically seeing people in trauma.. Warren Duvall: Well, the hospital was basically a trauma. You could also serve civilians, dependents. There was housing on the base. Not a lot for dependents And then there was a place about, I don't know, 20 miles off the base where they had a unit just for civilians of the military housing. And I don't know how many, let's say a few hundred there. So we took care of them. And the World's Fair was taking place. Let's see, I went there in February of 1970. It was actually February 20, 1970. And I got out on February 20, 1972. So it had been two years to the day I left for it. I returned home. Toby Jenkins: And that was in Japan. You were stationed in Japan. And what was the name of the city again? Warren Duvall: Yokosuka, Y-O-K-O-S-U-K-A. Toby Jenkins: OK. Well, on behalf of our staff here, we want to thank you for your service to the American people. Warren Duvall: We weren't treated very well back then coming home. Toby Jenkins: No, there was such a, it was a volatile time in our nation's history. Warren Duvall: And you didn't wear your uniforms off base. You just didn't talk about your military openly unless it was just someone you knew or whatever. So the way we're accepted now was so foreign in the beginning it took me a long time to put on a cap or whatever. And I do that regularly ever since, ever since I guess Iraq and Afghanistan. Conflicts and so forth. Then people started thanking you for your service. Toby Jenkins: Well, I think probably just my thoughts. There began to be a strong advocacy that the Vietnam vets had done their duty. They did what they were told and required to do. They didn't make the decision whether we were in or not. And don't you feel like the Vietnam Memorial in Washington, D.C. began to change the nation's attitude? 9 �Warren Duvall: It was such a- Well, I'm sure it had a lot to do with it. Such a moving and meaningful- Yeah, if you've never been there, it's extremely moving because you have the Wall. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and they have a replica of it that travels around the country. It's been in Tulsa at least twice. Warren Duvall: Yeah, I've been to it in Oklahoma City and in Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: So how old were you when you got out of the military? Warren Duvall: How was I? I was 24. Toby Jenkins: So you were just a young man. Were you married? Did you marry? Warren Duvall: Never married. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Now, during this time, how do you identify? What is your sexual orientation? Warren Duvall: Well, I'm a gay man. Toby Jenkins: You're a gay man. Warren Duvall: I've been gay all my life, but I didn't know it. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So when did you become aware of your sexual orientation, you had attraction to your same sex? Warren Duvall: So there was a, yeah, there was a, I guess. Toby Jenkins: When did you, when were you aware that you were attracted to men and that others were not? That the other boys didn't have those things? Warren Duvall: Well, I battled that, let's say in high school. Cause, you know, my best friend, I mean, you know we were growing up and slept together and everything. So it was very comforting for me to snuggle up with him. He was just about as straight as you could ever be. But that sort of thing, because I started realizing that, you know, that I was more interested in my same sex than I was in the opposite sex. Toby Jenkins: So in high school, this wouldn't have been, were you able to tell anybody you had those feelings? Warren Duvall: No, I didn't admit that to myself at that time. I was always under the impression that I would, you know, this was an adolescent thing, and that I would like to grow out of it. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you went off, you got out of high school, you went over to school in Fort Smith, to radiology as an adult, now. Did you pursue that then? I mean, did you… 10 �Warren Duvall: I did get offered one after I graduated, and I was solo working the night shift. I had a student with me part of the time, but this guy that was in the, he was orderly in the ER, and he started getting extra friendly with me. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so he flirted? Warren Duvall: Yeah, and actually talked me into taking him into a room and locking the door. Toby Jenkins: So he was your first intimate? Warren Duvall: No, my cousin. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. Warren Duvall: Eventually, we were little then, but eventually in junior high and into high school, so now we would still… Toby Jenkins: You were a young adult. You knew what you… Warren Duvall: When I started realizing and accepting, it was when I was overseas in the Navy, and you're around men everywhere. The only women were nurses, basically, young officers. They had male and female nurses, but it started in my attraction. Some of my friends are just someone that I physically was attracted to. I realized in high school that I was extremely fond of some of the male…The Big Valley, you remember the half-brother, what was his name? Anyway, he was always shuffling his shirt. It was a country and western. I was very attracted. Toby Jenkins: Bonanza? Warren Duvall: No, it wasn't Bonanza, but I think it was the Big Valley, but anyway. Yeah, I think that's what it was. Toby Jenkins: So you definitely liked some of the guys on the Big Valley. Big Valley was a TV show. Barbara Stanwyck was in that. Toby Jenkins: In the military. .. Warren Duvall: Didn't do anything in the military. Toby Jenkins: But you became aware. Warren Duvall: Became very aware. Toby Jenkins: Were there other gay men? Did you meet other gay men in the military? Warren Duvall: Not until, well, I was around them, but I didn't learn to just, I don't know. The last month or two I was there, I found out there was a group of gay guys that lived off base that leased a house, and there's about six or seven of them. But I never had any contact with them. Toby Jenkins: Any relationship. 11 �Warren Duvall: There was one guy that was, he was a lab tech, and he was very feminine, and he was very expressive and everything, and a voice that went along with the stereotype, so he was pretty obvious. Nobody said anything, well, I mean, they may have, but not in the general population of the hospital. Toby Jenkins: So you said you never explored that while you were in the military. Now, when you left the bases, while you were deployed, did you ever go out and find gay clubs in Japan, or? Warren Duvall: I knew of one off base, which we went into. I mean, they would be straight guys, and some of them might have been gay, but you know. We went as a curiosity of going into a gay bar, that sort of thing. Before I left the active duty, I'd made up my mind that I was going to explore my gayness when I got back to the States. I didn't know it was all around me. But so I went exploring sooner if I don't make it. Toby Jenkins: Finished with your deployments, and you returned to the United States, and where was it, did you go directly back to Oklahoma? Warren Duvall: I went back to Oklahoma, and went back to work at the hospital where I trained, because they had to hire me back. And then a friend of mine, a good friend before, went to a neighboring community, Roland. Of course, we were adversaries in school, but Roland was, at that time, much smaller, it really wasn't even much, a couple service stations. Then Interstate 40 came through, Roland, and Roland just exploded. Toby Jenkins: So you had come back, decided that you were gonna explore your sexual orientation. Warren Duvall: So this guy graduated from Rowland, but when the fall semester started and my fellow classmates were going off to school, he was in Wilburton, junior college in Wilburton. Okay, some of my fellow students were down there and they met him and when they came home on the weekends and the partying and stuff, that's how I got acquainted with him and we had particular fondness for each other. Toby Jenkins: So y'all developed a relationship? Warren Duvall: Not an intimate relationship, but over time. He showed up after I had come back. One night he showed up, he'd become a teacher and taught in Ponca City for a year before he came back. He was going to Florida, he had two fellow female teachers that had gone to Florida and found jobs down there and he said, why don't you go with me and let's look for work down there. Well, that was just an ideal thing for me because I was going to get away either to Florida or New York State. The only gay cousin that I know I had, but probably not, but he was older than my mother because his father was my grandfather, Tidwell, mom's father. His first wife died from one of those diseases they had back then, consumption or whatever. And then he was single for many years. So he had one son and the one son got married and had two kids, one girl, one boy. Well, Fred was actually four years older than mom, but mom was his aunt because there was a long gap between when my grandfather married the second time. 12 �Toby Jenkins: Was he gay? Warren Duvall: Well, yeah, he was gay, but no one knew that. He went through the military during the war. He was an officer, he had a doctorate in business, so he taught at universities and things in California. When I was getting out, or let's say the last six months or so, he started writing to me. He'd come home because his parents were in California and they were dying one at a time and his sister took care of them. I don't think she ever married, but I didn't really know her. I don't know if I probably saw her when I was young. Toby Jenkins: And where did he live? Warren Duvall: When he started contacting me, he was in New York City. I think he taught business at New York City University, I believe. So he started writing me letters because he'd come home, stopped spending time with mom, either going or coming from his parents, and they died pretty close together. So mom put him in my old bedroom, and so he started writing to me. He would tell me, well, your mom put me in your bedroom, I just, you know, I felt really comfortable there and I felt like I needed to write you a letter if you'd wanted me to communicate with. So we communicated back and forth until I got out and he wanted me to come and see him. He told me that he had this young man that lived with him. That's as much as he told me. So when I got out and then my friend came along and went to Florida, so I was gay, he was gay, and after we moved to Florida, Roy and I got an apartment and then the night I pulled in with my U-Haul, my motorcycle, my U-Haul and my few possessions, I saw this huge man because I pulled into the parking lot and the back of our apartment had sliding doors and I could see this huge man in there. So I, you know, I went in, and Roy introduced me to Gary, and Gary was the nicest guy. He was a school teacher. We both got jobs down there, so he hadToby Jenkins: You got a job in a hospital. What city in Florida? Warren Duvall: In Florida it would have been...The hospital was in Cocoa, which is on the mainland from Cocoa Beach, and the name of the hospital was Wusthof, a 200-bed hospital. So that's where I went to work. But anyway, after a while Gary invited me and Roy to move in with him because his roommates were leaving or whatever. I think he had a couple of roommates and so, to make a long story short, there was three gay guys living together, none of us talking about gayness, and there was a TV series, gosh, I can't remember the name of it. It was the first thing I saw in a TV series where this guy was a married man and realized he was gay and came out. And that story was the big thing because it was the first thing on TV that talked about being gay. I don't know if you remember it or not, and so that kind of opened us up, you know, because we were very interested in that and so forth. But when I went to work at Wusthof, there was this gorgeous Italian man who was a respiratory therapist... And when I'd see him in the cafeteria, you know stealing glances, never talking to him personally or anything. And so time went on and I had just gotten me a, I had just ordered me a new car and I was going into the bank, you know, to get my loan and everything, and I was in my cut13 �off jeans and you know, and I come out of the bank and this car was sitting there and the sun was to my back so I couldn't see who was in the car and he had pulled up and rolled his window down and yelled out at me. So you know, I really couldn't see him. So I walk over to the window and I say it's this guy, you know. And he's like, do you live around here? And I'm like, yeah, a couple miles down in the Atlantic. And he said, well, I just live a few blocks from here, but we'll have to get together, that sort of thing. He had two kids, his wife worked on the base, there was an Air Force base- St Patrick Air Force Base, I think, which was south of Kennedy Space Center, and anyway. So one thing led to the other. And then he showed up as a patient one day for an IVP, which is a kidney x-ray procedure that you did back then with contrast with the kidneys and bladders would show up, ureters and bladders would show up. So he came in for that. So we got real friendly while I was doing the procedure on him. That happened just before I ran into him at the bank, but anyway he made arrangements for me to come over when his wife was working. That was my first affair of sorts. The guy was nuts. Toby Jenkins: They usually are. Warren Duvall: First thing he wanted to do, he wanted to move out and he wanted to, he insisted on me telling my roommates that I was gay, which was very hard for me to do because we'd never talked about it. Toby Jenkins: But your roommates were gay. Warren Duvall: Yeah. But they didn't particularly react to that. Roy seemed to be quite jealous of this guy. I can't think of his name right now. I don't think he's with us for several years now, but anyway, so we moved out. He always changes his mind from day to day, and so I didn't know anything to do except run away from him and come back home. At the same time, my mother was complaining that dad was falling off the wagon and that was her excuse to get me back home too. Well, when he found out that I was going to leave, he packed up and came to Oklahoma with me. I can't get rid of this guy. Toby Jenkins: So this was the Italian guy. Warren Duvall: This was the Italian guy. Toby Jenkins: And he had left his wife and his kids. Warren Duvall: At that point, he had left his wife and kids and came to Oklahoma with me. Toby Jenkins: And that wasn't the plan. Warren Duvall: That wasn't the plan. I had job interviews in Oklahoma City and job interviews in Tulsa and one interview in Bartlesville. He was a respiratory therapist. I don't know if I said that. So he interviewed, he didn't have any appointments or 14 �anything, but he interviewed in some hospitals in Oklahoma City, I guess in Tulsa too. He got accepted for a job in Bartlesville was the only place he got an offer to go to work. So that worked for me because he had to go to Bartlesville and I was intending on finding a job in Tulsa anyway. So I found a job at Doctors Hospital at 25th and Harvard. I worked there 27 and a half years for a variety of routine procedures, thoracic procedures, surgical procedures, emergency room procedures. CAT scan came along. I worked with CAT scans in the early stages, so I really didn't like it. That's more one-onone with my patients. CT was, you know, you stuck them in this unit out there and you were in a separate room. Warren Duvall: So back in Tulsa, did that relationship end? Warren Duvall: Yes, but it was very difficult because I could not get rid of him and he kept coming down and said, I'm gonna move in with you. And I'm like, no, you can't do that. So when he saw that I wasn't going to do that, he called his wife, sell the house and came up here. So she came up there. Of course, he was always wanting me to come to their house on the weekends and things. She was very nice, very innocent, and from a big family. They were, you know, they were fromToby Jenkins: Was she aware that he had relationships with men? Warren Duvall: No, she might've suspected. She never asked me directly. But he was very belligerent to her once she came there and they bought a house and everything. But he kept trying to come back into my life. So, you know, I just, it was a very uncomfortable situation. And I would take him down to my parents. He wanted to go down... that thing. And the first time I took him, my brother was down in the field and they were cutting greens, I think, spinach. Warren Duvall: And mom said, oh, we'll take him down. Jerry's down there. Made him see a farm, you know, what goes on on a farm. So I took him down there. Well, I swear to God, he was so self-conscious of whether he was butch or not that he literally had a friend film him walking to see if he swished too much or, I meanToby Jenkins: So he had a lot of internalized homophobia. Warren Duvall: He had all kinds of….He was, I don't know, he was bipolar, I think. Toby Jenkins: Now, did you take him down with you, did you come out to your family as gay? Warren Duvall: No, no, no, still had not come out. After him, I decided, well, I'm not straight. I mean, I'm not gay, because this is nuts. So I tried, I came back to Oklahoma and tried to come to Tulsa, tried to play the straight game for two or three more years. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, that almost broke you, huh? So you're in Tulsa. Let's speed along, because that was all fascinating to me. So you're in Tulsa, and this relationship, you got away from that. Did you begin to connect with the community here? Warren Duvall: Well, so my friend that we went to Florida with, he stayed down there for that two or three years, and then he finally came back and was in the Muldrow, 15 �Roland , Fort Smith area. He was a school teacher, but he wound up going to EMT school down in Florida and worked for their ambulance and worked in the hospitals and things like that, even though he had a, he was a math major. He came back. Toby Jenkins: Well, you're in Tulsa. I'm just curious, when did you start connecting with the gay community? Warren Duvall: Okay, he showed up, and we went to an adult movie theater downtown on Main Street on about 5th, and the Taj Mahal was around the corner. Well, I knew that that was a gay bar, even though I was still doing the straight scene. But anyway, he brought a fellow school teacher who was obviously a feminine gay man. They wanted to go to the Taj Mahal, and I was like, oh no, because my thought was every family member and every person I work with is gonna be outside the door watching me walk in this gay bar. I mean, that was my mindset. I was so scared to do it, so they were kind of put out with me. But anyway, that was kind of the opening. Then this girl came to work at Doctors, a fellow tech. She was a really attractive, pixie girl, and we got along really well, and then she got what wound up being her roommate, a job there in radiology as an aide, getting patients and helping running in the dark room, things like that. So I got really, we got closer and closer and ran around with them and everything, and slowly got around to the point that we were both gay. So lesbians brought me out. They took me to, it was before Queen of Hearts on Main Street. It was, what was it, it was a drag bar. What was the name of that one? And they took me to another bar that was on Utica and what's that, 4th Street. There was a TG&Y there, and now it's a County Medical, some kind of department there, but right on the north side of the parking lot was this bar that was a gay bar. That's the first place they took me. So we go up and we sit down at the bar, and here's these two or three floozy gals in there, and this black one walks up and sits down on the barstool beside me and strikes up a conversation with me, and I'm just talking to her, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and she goes about her way. And one of the girls leaned over and said, you know, that's a drag queen, don't you know that? Toby Jenkins: Thought they had you in a lesbian bar. Warren Duvall: I just thought she was a, you know, a floozy gal, you know, trying to put the make on me. Toby Jenkins: So did you ever start going to the bars by yourself? Warren Duvall: So this continued, you know. I would talk to them while going out, and they, of course, there was a lesbian bar on Memorial between 15th and 21st. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember it? Shotzi's, or the Club? Warren Duvall: That was the later name of it. Toby Jenkins: The Club. 16 �Warren Duvall: The Club, yeah, the club. It was really a girls' bar, but the guys would go in early there. Back then, you know, it was liquor by the wink, you know, you had a brown bag, you know, and so forth, but, so they'd take me there, and they had to introduce me to some guy here, and nothing happened, you know, and one night I wanted to go out, and, uh. Susan said, just go out on your own. Oh, I'm afraid to do that. Well, you know, come to the Club, you know, some of the girls in there and everything. So I did. I struck out on my own and I was just having my drinks and smoking and that sort of thing. And I got this other mixed drink. I'm like, I didn't order that. Well, there's a gentleman over there that bought you this drink. And I said, well, who is it? And I looked around and there's this big old guy over there and he was just grinning. So that was my first introduction to the gay community. Because he introduced me to all his gay friends and I became part of their group. Back then, gay Tulsa was kind of cliquish. I mean, if you weren't in a group, you know, you didn't have much of a gay social life. Toby Jenkins: Now, did you eventually end up with a relationship? I mean, you… Warren Duvall: Well, for once I came out and that was a whole new experience for me and everything. So I was partying hard, meeting lots of tricks. And at some point along about the time it was about like 1980 or so, there was this little one paragraph article in Tussle World about these gay men in New York City and L.A. that were coming down with this strange disease, you know. Of course, that caught my attention. And then you start hearing more and more rumors about that. And I thought in my mind, I need to settle down with someone. Well, about four of us went to Oklahoma City for one weekend and I met this cowboy down there, Roger. And we were at one of the bars up on 39th Street, a smaller bar. Of course, it changed, and had many names. I don't remember what it was called back then. But anyway, he caught my eye when he came in and we were back in the pool area, playing pool. So he caught my eye and I commented on him to my friends. Well, why don't you go up there and talk to him? Well, I'm very shy, very shy back then, especially gay shy. But finally I got my nerve up and went up there and he was sitting there by himself. It was early. There was just us and him. All that was in there at that time, the bartender. So I sat down with him at a high table and we struck up a conversation and people came in, people came in. And he kept, he would say, well, I'll buy us another round if you'll go get it. So I'd go get it. So I sat there with him for two or three hours and finally he said, I'm gonna have to go to the bathroom. He says, I've got a cast on my leg. And he did get a cast on his leg. So he'd gotten into a wreck. He was a druggie. He had a wild gay life in the Navy on board ships that I knew nothing about. Anyway…. Toby Jenkins: So you all ended up together. Warren Duvall: So we ended up together that night and the next weekend I called him and I went down. And some of my friends were there too. Anyway, we went out to dinner and he was high as a kite. And anyway, we spent the night at the new gay club at the hotel in Oklahoma City, the Habana Inn. I haven't been there since the new owners, but. 17 �So we ended up, he came up the next weekend and I took him out to Zebra's to play some, about 33rd and Yale. Toby Jenkins: Zippers. Warren Duvall: Zippers. And anyway, before the weekend was over, he told me, well, you know, I'd like to have a permanent relationship with you. And he was starting to, he had just went through a treatment program at the VA, but he was falling off the wagon and the reason he broke his leg was because heToby Jenkins: Sobriety program. So y'all ended up together. Warren Duvall: Right. And he was from Oklahoma City. So he moved to Tulsa with me. And that was 82, early 82. Toby Jenkins: And how long were y'all together? Warren Duvall: 10 years. Toby Jenkins: You said that you were in the medical field and you had seen the notice about some of the first AIDS patients in New York. What did that begin to look like in Tulsa? Warren Duvall: Well, it was, you know, it started to be a general conversation when you went out, you know, guys talking about it and so forth. And of course you got more and more information. And then the first gay patient we got was this big old man. You know, like any big straight man. I mean, no sense of being gay. Of course, the rumor was he was in ICU coming in sick. And the rumor was this guy's gay, you know? And so he was, I don't think he got out of there. I think he died in the hospital after a couple of weeks. So he was the first AIDS patient that I dealt with. Toby Jenkins: What was the hospital’s…Y'all were dealing with your first AIDS patient. What were the general policies? Warren Duvall: Well, I mean, they just put him in isolation. So just a typical isolation patient, you know, you had to get on up and mask up and everything. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, you were afraid to work with him. Didn't really know, did you? Warren Duvall: Didn't know very much at all. But he was very, he wasn't a stereotypical type gay guy. You know, and so our staff couldn't believe that that man was gay, you know? But anyway, that was my first time working with a gay patient. Toby Jenkins: When did you get involved with the community, the gay community, and their response to AIDS? Warren Duvall: Okay, when the guy bought me the drink at the club, I got acquainted with his circle of friends. I would be with him. We'd go over here and do that and go out to dinner and all the things you do. And one weekend, we took a long weekend and went to the [horse] races in Arkansas. Hot Springs is that down there? I can't think of which Springs it is. Anyway, we rented a Winnebago, and there's about eight or nine of us in this Winnebago. So we drove down to Eureka Springs. 18 �Toby Jenkins: Hot Springs. Warren Duvall: Hot Springs. So we drove down there. Toby Jenkins: To the horse races. Warren Duvall: Yeah, spent the weekend at horse races and things. So that's how I got acquainted with the gay people and going to parties and going out and so forth. Toby Jenkins: But when did you get involved with, like I know we have this picture here, you're in the Follies. When did you begin to get involved with the gay community's response to people with AIDS and your caregiving? Warren Duvall: Well, once I read that article, I'd be concerned about my own health, you know? Which is, like I say, when I decided I needed to settle down with one person, so, and Roger came along and I settled down with him. So, a year or so later, might have been two years, we'd been together for some time. This guy showed up that was a past friend of his in Oklahoma City and he was a scrub tech that had come up to work with one of the doctors that worked at Doctors Hospital, a plastic surgeon. But anyway, we got acquainted with him. He was an old friend of Roger's and he got really sick. And we went up to see him and his mother was there and he was from Ardmore originally. So, he was in the latter stages, you know, his skin and bones and she had had problems with so-called his friends taking things from his apartment and stuff like that. And so, she gave us the 9th degree and then when she figured out that, you know, we were coming to visit him, his friends, she was very happy that we were there. And so, we would spend some time with him and, you know, he was at the end, and said he had diarrhea all the time. And like I say, he was skin and bones. And I would clean him up, you know, because I'm a medical person, you know, you gotta keep cleaning people up. He didn't survive more than a week from the first time we went in to see him, I don't think. And then, they took him, so he was, I guess he was at Hillcrest. They took him to the old Moore's facility on 14th and Peoria, somewhere around there. Well. The funeral home. The funeral home. After he died. Well, the big funeral home is south of the cemetery off of Memorial. They were used to taking care of AIDS patients. They were scared to death. They took him and put him in a garage out back when his family came to see his body. Then they had to drag him back in. But that's how scared they were. He had AIDS, they stuck him out there, butt naked with the sheet over him. So, we went through all that rigamarole and everything with his family and him. So, that was a good introduction. That's when we went down and joined SHANTI. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and tell us what SHANTI was. Warren Duvall: Well, you were assigned an AIDS buddy. Of course, we were a couple, so we were doing it together and we went through the training program. That's when I met David Parsons. He was going through the, he had just started out. I can remember David, I can remember distinctly, we're sitting there in this classroom setting with just 19 �the two of us right then, and then David walks in, real friendly, how are you, gets his chair, drags it right up in front of us, and... yadda. He was going through, or he was starting one, I think. I think he was starting one because, anyway, so that's how we met David. So, I knew David off and on, over time, and got better and better acquainted with the times. So, we got assigned this guy, and then we split up. Uh, and thenToby Jenkins: You and Roger ended your relationship. Warren Duvall: We did pre-Christmas in 91. Anyway, so, you know, we started taking this guy out and doing things with him and everything, and then we split up. Roger stayed here for a while, and then he moved to Oklahoma City with this little nelly guy. I'm like, Roger always thought he was butch and everything. He got caught in drag driving, and they took him to the hospital, and his parents came in, and he was in the emergency room in drag. Toby Jenkins: But So you had the AIDS patient and Roger and you had split up, so did you continue to get more involved in SHANTI? Warren Duvall: Well, SHANTI had gone by the wayside pretty much, because, you know, one person couldn't handle an AIDS patient by themselves, so they came up with—what's that called? Toby Jenkins: RAIN [Regional AIDS Interfaith Network}. Warren Duvall: Okay. Anyway, that took over. I continued—Roger and I split up, but I continued to— Toby Jenkins: Be a part of the RAIN team. Warren Duvall: To be a part of this guy. Toby Jenkins: This patient. Warren Duvall: This patient, yeah, and Roger moved off to Oklahoma City. Toby Jenkins: So what was it like in those days? You're doing the RAIN team, and you're a medical— Warren Duvall: No, I'm not doing the RAIN team. I didn't even join it. But I was still taking care of this guy Toby Jenkins: So the community—you were a medical professional, so you were seeing it from a different angle. And then you were seeing the community's organization. We've had multiple people who've interviewed and talked about that period. It was a difficult time, because people, as you said, you'd be diagnosed, and then you would be gone quickly. There was no treatment to save your life, and yet some people would get sick, and they would survive and still would be living with it, you know, 30, 40 years later. What was the mood in the community, and you as a medical professional, what was it like? I mean, was it— 20 �Warren Duvall: Well, it was very cautious. People became much more concerned and cautious about their sexual habits. Toby Jenkins: Right. So it transformed the communities. Warren Duvall: It definitely transformed the community. You still, I mean, you still socialized and so forth. But the worst thing was you would have, let's say, you'd have a social friend that came down with it and there would be no time until they were gone. So you went through that over and over and over and over and over. Toby Jenkins: How many funerals do you think you went to during the time of the pandemic? Warren Duvall: Probably a dozen. Toby Jenkins: Of close friends who died? Warren Duvall: Socialized friends. I never had a really super close friend until much later. I had a friend that came down with it much later after they were starting to have some successful treatments. Toby Jenkins: We've talked about this. You've talked about how you liked to dance and things like that. Were you involved in what we call the Follies and some of the fundraising efforts? Warren Duvall: I was in the, Roger and I, in the picture. We did the Follies the first two years, did that dance routine with that group there. I think it was almost verbatim, there was only one or two that weren't in that picture that was in the first year. Then I stayed active with Linda and them, but I didn't do any kind of active work on stage with them until her final year, the 10th year, and of course, Roger was long gone by then. Toby Jenkins: What were the Follies? It was an annual fundraising event for those living with HIV and AIDS. Linda started it. Toby Jenkins: Linda Stevens? Warren Duvall: Linda Stevens. Toby Jenkins: Who's recently deceased. Warren Duvall: I didn't know that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. We just lost her in the last— It's been almost three months now. Warren Duvall: Oh, man. I wanted to get to see her. I went to their house one time to knock on the door, but nobody came. Man, I knew she was in really bad health, but I didn't know that. Toby Jenkins: You talked about you being involved with some other affinity groups, community organizations. You mentioned you were part of the Drillers Bears. Was this a socialization group for men who identified as bears? Warren Duvall: Yes. 21 �Toby Jenkins: Tell us kind of what a bear is. Because you've talked about this a lot in your interview about the flamboyant, effeminate, all the different— Warren Duvall: Right. To me, Roger and I's first introduction to it was when we were on vacation in Florida, and we were in Orlando and there was a gay hotel there in Orlando [Parliament House], kind of like the one in Oklahoma City. So we went there. Anyway, there's this group of big guys, big burly guys, and they were in this bar that was next to the hotel, and I think it was called the Blue Moon, maybe. It was kind of a Levi Leathers kind of bar. So there's all these guys in there. My conception was that a bear was a hairy man. Toby Jenkins: More masculine, more hairy, working class. Warren Duvall: Beer gut, whatever. Toby Jenkins: Wasn't the typical Hollywood depiction of slender sleeves, muscle-lift gay guys. Warren Duvall: Yeah, just the common guys. Toby Jenkins: So you became a part of that group, Drillers Bears here in Oklahoma. Warren Duvall: Well, I became part of that. That was after Roger and I split up, but the initial group in Orlando, which I think, I was told that was the first time that a group of guys had met and formed a bear group. Of course, and then it spread nationwide and worldwide in a very short period of time. So I was active in that, and then we would go to gay rodeos all over, in Oklahoma, Arkansas, and actually, Roger and I split up when I went to Arkansas, but Missouri and stuff, and then once he left, I got acquainted with Rick Poston, and he was trying to form a new gay rodeo division in Tulsa because you weren't a real close part to the OGRA, particularly. Toby Jenkins: And OGRA stands for what? Warren Duvall: Oklahoma Gay Rodeo Association. Toby Jenkins : And that was basically based in Oklahoma City. Warren Duvall: Yeah, it was statewide. Toby Jenkins: And so when you say gay rodeo, for our viewers, explain what that means, gay rodeo. Warren Duvall: A gay rodeo, well, it was a typical rodeo version, the gays' version of a rodeo. Toby Jenkins: So people who like Country and Western music… Warren Duvall: Western living, and like to ride horses and do all the things, and there were different organizations and you were all affiliated with IGRA. 22 �Toby Jenkins: Our viewers might be familiar with the explosion of interest when you had Urban Cowboy come out and Gillies, and where country and Western were people who were not farmers or cowboys or ranchers. They dress as cowboys and go out in twostep dancing. So this is theWarren Duvall: Right, kind of a popular thing. Actually, the first time I started going back to what I grew up in, it was still in the straight bars. And then after I was going to the straight bars and dancing, I started my gay paraphernalia, up again. Then it morphed right into the gay scene real quick. So I just, I returned to my roots, still in straight life and then morphed into the gay scene. Toby Jenkins: So you weren't playing or role-playing the role of a cowboy because, for our viewers, there were gay country and western bars, and there'd be country and western bar nights, country and western nights at our clubs, but it was kind of almost like a culture where you dressed up in cowboy boots and wranglers and you looked the part, but you had never been near a horse or a rope-to-cow. Warren Duvall: Common name for it was Drugstore Cowboys. Toby Jenkins: What'd they call it? Warren Duvall: Drugstore Cowboys. Toby Jenkins: Drugstore Cowboys. But you actually were a part of the group that became, what was it called here in Tulsa, the? Warren Duvall: It was Sooner State Rodeo Association. Toby Jenkins: So it was. Warren Duvall: We were the first organization that separated from an existing state organization, the IGRA. And we were the first that split our state. Toby Jenkins: And so these organizations would have been all over the country. Warren Duvall: Yeah, they're all affiliated with the IGRA, which is International Gay Rodeo Association. So we applied for a new membership, and so that involved us going to meetings and things. I think it was probably the second annual meeting that I went to, and that was, let's see. We got accepted, not exactly sure what city we were in, but anyway, we were the first to put in to separate from, to be separate from OGRA, Oklahoma Gay Rodeo Association, which it was basically, it was a state organization, but it was 90% Oklahoma City metro area. Warren Duvall: Once they accepted us, there were two or three other groups in different states that were right there wanting to put their application in. So I don't know where, then I got separated from the Sooner State Rodeo Association kind of on a political situation. Toby Jenkins: So this group came together, and one of the things they did is they hosted a yearly rodeo. Warren Duvall: Yes. 23 �Toby Jenkins: Just like you would have, which was very common in our culture here in the middle of the country. Warren Duvall: And it didn't have to be a big rodeo. It could be in somebody's barn. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and what would y'all do at the rodeo? What kind of entries would there be? Like, name off the different things. Warren Duvall: Oh, well, calf roping. Toby Jenkins: Barrel racing. Warren Duvall: Bulldogging, barrel racing, and there's another rehab pole, line of poles. You didn't do this in the straight. You need to zigzag through them. I can't remember that term. They had bull riding, horseback, bareback, saddleback, and then they did more kinky, campy things, just fun things. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, they'd have drag queens perform. Warren Duvall: Yeah, they had, what do we use the goat for? You had to tie a ribbon on the goat or something. But anyway, there were fun things to do, but the other was semiserious. The livestock class of livestock we did, it's about university-type stock. Maybe you'd say high school and university. That's probably on the same level. There's not many high schools, but there are high schools in Oklahoma that have a rodeo program. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so you would have these big rodeos that would be a full-blown rodeo, but it would be imprinted with being LGBT proud, being out and proud. So for our viewers, it must have meant a lot to you to be able to return to your childhood and your experiences and blend those two together. Warren Duvall: Back when we were just a little kid... the rodeo in Fort Smith every year, which was a big thing. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, I will say this. I want to make sure our viewers are aware of this. This was an extremely successful, what I would call community crossover. Every gay rodeo that I personally attended- and I've been to Oklahoma City, I've been to them in Wyoming, Texas- half the crowd is straight. Yeah, it was a very good environment for people outside of the community. Allies like these gay cowboys would have their families there and you allowed straight people to enter the competitions. Warren Duvall: As I remember right there weren't any restrictions on it. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, it was a very good way for people to mix with the community and get to know us. Did you enjoy being a part of that? Warren Duvall: Very much so, yeah, I was very active and held health officer positions and then one year I was a rodeo coach. I was a rodeo director, which was the first rodeo we had here which actually was sponsored by the OGRA. And I had told you earlier that Rick and his boyfriend at the time started putting this Sooner State Rodeo Association together. So since we were working to separate and since Rick got that in Tulsa from his membership and officer in the OGRA in Oklahoma City, they were not happy with him 24 �but he'd already signed up and everything. Our first rodeo here was sponsored by the OGRA but the Sooner State did 90% of the involvement in putting it together and so forth. They might disagree with that percentage. But even before we became an active, accepted member in the IGRA, we put the rodeo on- I think that was 2003,, maybe 2002.. Toby Jenkins: And hosted the international here in Tulsa. So the International Gay Rodeo Association came here in Tulsa and your Sooner State Rodeo as a part of the Oklahoma Gay Rodeo Association. Y'all served as the host. Warren Duvall: Yeah, well, OGRA served as the host, but the majority of the staff came from the Sooner State. Toby Jenkins: People came from all over the country, didn't they? Warren Duvall: Yes, right, and it was a three-day event. Toby Jenkins: When did you get involved with Oklahomans for Equality? I mean, I know, would you have cowboys and horses in the pride parade? I mean, was this something? Warren Duvall: Yeah, sometimes, yeah, and we put on a float every year, back when I was active in it. And, yeah, I think I remember some people were. .. Toby Jenkins: And when did you get connected to this Oklahomans for Equality year at the Equality Center? Warren Duvall: Probably not until I, really not until I came back in 2019, just before COVID. I came back at the end of October and by early 2020. Toby Jenkins: Because you had gone home and lived on the farm for a while… Warren Duvall: Right, yeah, for 13 years now my mother had died, and my brother, who had a home on the farm. My mother had given him three acres to build him a house. He was in bad health too. He started early in life with cardiac problems. He had a bypass at age 40 or 42. But anyway, she had died in April of 2004, and he died in May of 2005.. So my oldest brother and my sister- there's four of us, two boys and then my sister, and I was the youngest, and I was nine years younger than our oldest brother. Toby Jenkins: So we're kind of coming towards the end, so I just want to, so you move back to Tulsa and then you begin to get involved here at the Equality Center. Warren Duvall: With the two senior citizen organizations. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Prime Timers. Warren Duvall: And SAGE, which we got more into. Toby Jenkins: For our viewers, kind of tell us what Prime Timers is, what kind of organization is it for? Warren Duvall: Prime Timers is an organization for gay, bisexual men. 25 �Toby Jenkins: Older. Warren Duvall: 50 and older, typically. If you were a partner of someone and you were much younger, you could be a member because of your relationship to your partner that was a member of the group. Toby Jenkins: And then the SAGE, it was called, which is Services Advocacy for Gay Elders, what SAGE stands for. But eventually, SAGE's program began to be called the OkEq Seniors Program, and so you began to get involved in that. Now, earlier in our time together, you talked about David Parsons, who you first met at a training session, with SHANTI, where you're gonna take care of people living with HIV-AIDS. So he's been your friend all of these years. Warren Duvall: Yeah, and we've gotten closer and closer after Roger and I split up. I think Roger and I used to have a Christmas party every year, and I think after we met David, I think he came to a couple of those. This was before his partner Al. But anyway, Roger and I had bought a condo out on 51st between Memorial and Mingo. It's called Idlewild II. Toby Jenkins: Well, you've been connected with David Parsons all of these years. Warren Duvall: Roger and I split up. I got left with the condo because he wanted to sell it right away and it was worth, it priced for 15,000 less than what it was. And I said, well, I'm not gonna take that loss. So I ended up taking over the whole thing, which put me in a financial bind until I sold it. So, early on, I had moved downtown when I had come out and actually met another married man and had a short affair with him. That's when I pulled the floor off of having any kind of relationships with married men. Not a good thing. Because they just don't, they don't work out basically because they're doing a double life and you're kind of always the secondary part of that relationship. Well, that was my experience with it and most people that I've talked to, same thing. Toby Jenkins: So you were getting involved with the seniors program here and you and David, you'd bring David to the program. Warren Duvall: Yes, well, when I sold the condo, I moved just off of downtown on 17th and Carson. You know, what I call the Jetson building. We were on the south side of the street behind the Mansion. In fact, the duplex I was in was owned by the owner of the Mansion, what I call that law firm that had that Mansion back then. So I sold the condo and lived there for four or five years and that's when mom died. And my brother was, I had just moved back to the farm. Well, the reason I did that was because I became physically unable to keep my job when I ruptured my L5-S1 and I'd already had my first hip surgery and had ruptured my neck, moving a patient. So I had so many medical things going on with me and it just became too hard for me to work and do my job properly and everything. So I wound up, initially I planned on semi-retiring at 57 and I wound up retiring at 57 because of my physical injury. So, I was just a few blocks from David and Al. So, you know, we intermingled and it was over because, you know, they had, after he met Al, you know, they had gatherings at their house and dinners and parties and things like that. So, we came closer and closer and then I moved off for 13 years. And when I came back, which was the end of 26 �October, 2019, I had called David and I would come up and we'd go out to dinner when I was on the farm. And I'd come up and go to doctor's appointments up here. I would get in touch with them and, you know, we'd go to eat and sometimes I spent the weekend here. So, we became pretty close before, in fact, I was at David and Al's house when I got the call that my mother had died. So, we became good friends. Some of my friends came down when I first moved to the farm. Some of them came down and about five or six of them came down to see, you know, where I was living and what was going on down there. David came, I don't know if Al came or not, probably so, they got a big kick, because they wanted me to show them around the country side. And like I said, as a crow flies, I was a mile from the river, but I was about three miles from it to get to it from either the upper side of the dam or below the dam, which was Locking Dam 14 on the natural part of the Arkansas down there. So, we had about, well, we had about 90 acres of farmland. 75 or so of it was good, productive farming land where you grew different crops. Typically, over the years it changed, but in recent years, pretty much in that part of Oklahoma you grew corn one year, next year you put in winter wheat and when the winter wheat came off, you combined that and then you put in soybeans. So, you had three crops in two years. That's what it was, all the, it was already that when I moved. Toby Jenkins: And so, these boys would come down here to see that. Warren Duvall: So, I'd take them down into the corn field and you go down this road, it's actually an extension of the county road, but the county didn't take care of it anymore and we were on one side and there's another owner on the other side of this road. But, we got down to a 90 degree turn and they had just put up street signs out in the country down there and there was a street sign in the corner of the corn field. They got the biggest kick out of it. They couldn't believe that there was a, of course, it didn't take long for them. .. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, that's called urban sprawl, you know. So, I know that you, and we're gonna wrap this up, you, I know you would, you and David would come to Sage because your good friend, he was diagnosed with dementia and for several years, you were his ride or die. You took him to Prime Timers. Made him. Took him everywhere I went. And allowed him to be able to continue to participate. Warren Duvall: Right, be active. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and so, I was always so impressed with that. Could you maybe speak to that? Why did you feel that was important? Warren Duvall: Well, when I came back, I initially called him and he was okay then and then COVID came along and I didn't, basically, I only had one friend that we spent, you know, in contact and together but I didn't really call anybody during that first year or so. And so, when I called him back after COVID, I left a message and then I got a message from him and he seemed very excited to talk to me, you know. When I got the message, I called him back and he proceeded to tell me that he had had this, as David said, I 27 �drank a quarter of wine one night and went to bed and the next morning, I couldn't get out of bed. Couldn't do anything. And he thought it was all to do with the quart of wine. And I said, well, that and many others helped you get to where you are now. But he told me that the doctors had told him that he had Alzheimer's, dementia, Alzheimer's is another form of dementia. But they specifically said, I, observing him in the beginning, I didn't really think he had, because it gets misdiagnosed a lot, Alzheimer's gets diagnosed when somebody's got another form of dementia. He could no longer drive, he couldn't even ride a bicycle, and he had limitations, but he still had a brain, and he walked daily, walked with his dogs, and then he lost a dog, and he walked with his other dog. So he was just at home all the time, Al's working, so he's, you know, and he can't go places because he can't drive anymore. So I started taking him with me and coming down here and we joined up. I was getting ready to join when COVID came along and he didn't join. After it became where we could get out and get around again is when I came down and joined and brought David down. So I took him to all the meetings and I took him out to eat a lot. I took him down all the trips that I would take down to the farm and had a couple of doctors down in the Fort Smith area that I like so well, like my dermatologist. I go down there. Toby Jenkins: So you kept him active. Warren Duvall: So I kept him busy, and, you know, that was good for me too, because I had not made really good contact with my old friends. I don't know if they're all dead or moved away or what, but I just haven't been able to, just, besides David and Al, there's only one other couple that I've had anything to do with and they seem to be content with retiring and sitting at home. Toby Jenkins: And recently, we lost David. He died. And, um... Warren Duvall: Within the past year, he'd gotten to the point that he really couldn't communicate. You could talk to him and he might, you might ask him something and he would answer you or tell you that he didn't know. Toby Jenkins: So I've always been grateful that you kept him involved. Warren Duvall: As long as I could to keep him involved. Toby Jenkins: I just wonder, as we finish up, this will be my last question for you. You've lived a long life. You've served your country. You've had an active career. You've lived in multiple places. You saw the world. You've lived in other countries. Warren Duvall: Been to the gay games. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so, which is like the gay Olympics. But you saw things change over the last 30 or 40 years. Do you have a message for younger people or people who come after us? Do you have a message for the future? 28 �Warren Duvall: Be active as you can. Be aware that the political situation in this country is bad and gonna get worse for the LGBTQ group. I mean, they've already singled out the trans, you know. That's just the first step. If the public doesn't succeed in getting this group out of the White House and the Senate and Congress and the judges, I mean, it's just, never in my life would I ever assume that that would happen in the United States. It just never entered my mind. It concerns me greatly. So my advice is you fight it and you fight it and you never give up. Never give up. For many of us, it took a lot to come out and it was a lot. Some gay people knew all their life that they were gay. Now, I can look back and know that I always was, but I didn't know that. I didn't know what gay was for many years. Probably first started getting some conception of it in high school. I remember this group of future farmers. We'd gone into Fort Smith. We were probably trying to do some fundraisings or something. And this one guy, I don't know how they got on the subject, blowjobs, this one guy. He said, well, you know, these homosexuals, and he probably said faggots. He says, you know, their sexual organs are in their throat and that's why they blow each other on that. And I'm like, oh my God. He was a weird son of a bitch. Toby Jenkins: But that's the homophobic culture we live in. Warren Duvall: My first thought was, the sexual organs in my throat? Toby Jenkins: Well, this has been very helpful and very informative. And thank you so much for your service. Warren Duvall: And I have one other person I want to talk about briefly. Bart Elwell. He's a guy about my size. Pretty bald, wore a beard a lot. He had a degree in clothing design. He specialized initially in children's clothing. He was from the Oklahoma City area. He grew up in Moore. And I met him much later in life. This is after Roger and I had split up. And I'd seen him at the Silver Star dancing. He was a good dancer. But anyway, I met him again when we were forming the Driller Bears. He came to that, and we started talking, and getting acquainted, and became really close friends. And he came down with HIV late. I mean, he came down with two, three years after we'd gotten acquainted and been really good friends. So eventually, he came down with it. And I won't go into any detail. And just that he became positive. He worked just all kinds of fabric. And he never could get after his initial job. He came to town for this little children's clothing factory. That's how he came here. And then it got closed down, and couldn't compete with the international market, I guess. But we became closer and closer. He's the only one that would come down and spend the weekend with me, all the 13 years I was on the farm, after the initial guys came down the first couple weeks I was there. But he started, oh, about my last two or three years on the farm. So prior to October of 1919, he was a Christmas baby. My dad was born on Christmas Eve, and I was born on December 20th. And my half-brother was born on December 10th, I think. Lots of friends and had other friends and family that were December babies. 29 �I tried to get in contact with him over the Christmas holidays and didn't hear from him. Sent him a birthday card, didn't hear from him. And so finally, I got a call from him. I think it was probably early January of, I don't know how many years ago that was, about four or five. Anyway, he proceeded to tell me, oh, last year that I would come up and I'd go out to lunch with him, he kept complaining about stomach problems. He couldn't keep food down. He couldn't eat, but just a little bit, blah, blah, blah. And this went on, and they did tests on him and everything. And finally, they told him on Christmas Eve of that year, I'll say 2020, I'm trying to think, was that before? No, he died before I moved up here, I think, the disease was pancreatic cancer. Well, by the time they diagnosed it, it was almost already stage four. From the time he called me after, I didn't hear him remember the Christmas holiday, they told him the day before Christmas that he had it. So he went down to his family for Christmas Day to tell them that he had pancreatic cancer. But anyway, he went down like a rock. The time he called me and the time I came up the very next time, he was just, when I went to pick him up, he was just skin and bones. Didn't have a hair on his head because he was in chemo and everything. He didn't have a hair on his body. Wasn't very hairy anyway, he had a nice beard. But I wouldn't have known him. You know, you could have told me he's gonna be coming down the sidewalk here in 30 minutes and he could have walked right by me and I wouldn't have known it was him. That's how much he was just skin and bones. And he had a long-term relationship lover who was also HIV positive from down in the Dallas metro area. They were together, that long distance relationship for about the last four or five years of his life or more, maybe. But anyway, it was just a shock Okay, so he was never financially real secure because of his career and trying to stay in and so forth. But anyway, he wound up kind of being the office manager of an independent children's clothing store that was out at 81st and Harvard in that little shopping center and it's on the southwest corner. So he worked there the last few years. He gave me this picture of a cowboy that he had picked up at a garage sale or something and it was in this horrible frame. And this cowboy's bare-chested. He's got his saddle over his shoulder. Really good picture, watercolor. He said, I want you to have this because I know you'll do something good with it. So it's a great picture. I had it professionally framed and everything. Spent $300 just getting it framed. I was gonna take it to him so he could see what I did with it one weekend. And then I had to back out. The next weekend, by the time we got there, his lover had called me to say he had died. I hated it he never got to see it because he would have been so happy and proud that he gave that to me. Toby Jenkins: And that beautiful story is a reminder…. Warren Duvall: One of my very best friends ever and I've had lots of good friends over the years. Toby Jenkins: We can't delay, we can't put off. We gotta seize the moment and see the moment. All right. Warren Duvall: Tomorrow may be too late. 30 �Toby Jenkins: Well, thank you so much. Warren Duvall: Thank you. Toby Jenkins: This has been beautiful. We've covered areas that we've never covered. We talked about things that I don't think we've ever talked about in any other interviews. Warren Duvall: I could talk to you for two weeks. Warren Duvall: I mean, I've had an interesting life and amazing experience. Today I came through it. Toby Jenkins: This has been Warren Duvall on February the 10th, 2026. Warren Duvall: Thank you very much. Toby Jenkins: Thank you. Addendum: 1989 Follies Review Cast. Follies was a fundraiser for AIDS Programs. Warren is second from the right. 31 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Warren Duvall Interview Subject The topic of the resource Warren Duvall Oral History Project Interview from February 10, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Warren Duvall, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 10, 2026 Description An account of the resource This interview with Warren explores his life story, from growing up on a family farm in Oklahoma to his military service and his journey as a gay man. Warren shares personal insights into his experiences with sexuality, military service during Vietnam, and navigating life in Oklahoma and Florida. This interview provides a deep insight into the life experiences of a long-time LGBTQ+ community member, covering personal stories, community involvement, and the evolution of LGBTQ+ rights and health issues over decades. <strong>Video available for on-site research at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center.</strong> 2026 activism AIDS available at Center bear clubs coming out community gay rodeo healthcare HIV/AIDs interview LGBT history military OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript seniors Toby Jenkins transcript Tulsa video Vietnam Warren Duvall https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e5058728974a0f195bd8900e5e7c92a9.jpg 200a294d14881d81dd06ce84750b1c0f https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/0dd0cb24915e78deb62c6fbaf1d3e07d.pdf 20d176b1914b1b1833c44428a7b6656c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert (Bob) Odle Oral History Interview - Feb. 19, 2026 Transcript PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Robert (Bob) Odle Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins (and Dennis Neill) Date: February 19, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, March 13, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Robert (Bob) Odle Summary This interview with Bob Odle offers a deep dive into his life as a gay man, theater professional, and community advocate. Covering his personal journey, the impact of historical events, and insights into Tulsa's cultural scene, it provides valuable lessons on resilience, identity, and activism. Keywords LGBTQ history, theater, Tulsa, activism, personal story, AIDS, gay community, cultural history Key Topics    Bob Odle's personal history and identity The impact of historical events like JFK's assassination and AIDS crisis The development of theater and LGBTQ community in Tulsa Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background of Bob Odle 02:57 Early Life and Education 05:59 College Experience and Sexual Orientation 08:58 Military Draft and Sexual Identity 2 �11:50 Teaching Career and Coming Out 14:47 Theater Involvement and Gay Community Connections 17:48 Reflections on the LGBTQ+ Experience 20:57 Teaching Philosophy and Curriculum Development 23:56 Theater Companies and Professional Acting 39:52 Theatre Roots and Early Involvement 41:12 Memorable Performances and Traditions 43:39 The Birth of World Action Singers 48:06 The Evolution of Theatre Spaces in Tulsa 53:00 Theater Community Support and Changes 56:39 The Lynn Riggs Theater and Community Engagement 01:02:33 Impact of the Pandemic on Theatre 01:05:27 Personal Loss and Community Involvement 01:08:20 Political Climate and Advocacy 01:10:58 Concerns for Arts and Rights 01:20:21 A Message for Future Generations Robert (Bob) Odle Oral History Interview Feb 19, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Today is February the 19th, 2026. We are at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in downtown Tulsa, Oklahoma, in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library, and we are doing archival work and interview today, and joining me for the interview is Amanda Thompson, our archivist and the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, Dennis Neill. This is Toby Jenkins. Today, viewers, we are very fortunate to have a very special guest. Tell us your name and your date of birth and your address. Bob Odle: Bob Odle, Robert Odle. Date of birth is May 15th, 1945. Bob Odle: My address is XXX in Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: Thank you so much. We're here today, and I want us to tell...you've had such an interesting life, and I want to make sure we get everything, and we appreciate our viewers' interest in this, and so this is...we're going to give you some history that you might have a little trouble finding, so we're going to put it in one place where our viewers can find this information. Do you want me to call you Bob or Robert? Bob Odle: Bob. Everybody calls me Bob, except my sixth-grade art teacher. Toby Jenkins: What are your pronouns? How do you identify your gender? Bob Odle: Mr. He. Toby Jenkins: So, you identify as male? Bob Odle: Yes. 3 �Toby Jenkins: Okay, and could you just, for our time together, we're gonna...how do you identify in your sexual orientation, your...how do you identify? Bob Odle: Well, I'm queer as a $3 bill. Toby Jenkins: Okay, good. So, it's good to know, and for our historical people, that was a phrase we used a lot when we were growing up as kids. Bob Odle: Well, I just heard about the origin of the $3 bill just within the past week. During this Civil War, some of the southern states, as I recall, didn't have really enough gold, and so they issued those $3 bills, or maybe it was the American Revolution. I don't remember, but it was some revolutionaries, and they issued worthless money, and it was $3 bills. Toby Jenkins: So, that's why we have it. That's why they always used it on us. Where were you born? Bob Odle: I was born in Kansas City, Missouri. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Bob Odle: Research Hospital. Toby Jenkins: Is your family from Kansas City, Missouri? Bob Odle: Most of my...the Bell side of the family is from Missouri. My four-times greatgrandmother came to Missouri with Daniel and Nathan Boone. Nathan Boone is buried not far from where she's buried, and so most of my relatives are there. The...and the Rileys are there, once they came to this country. The Odles are scattered around western part of Virginia. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Now, when you say she's buried up in Missouri, is she buried near Boone's Lick? (Editor’s note Boone's Lick is the historical site where Daniel Boone’s sons settled around Franklin Missouri.) Bob Odle: Oh, no, that's much farther north. Nathan Boone is much closer to Springfield, and it's a little country cemetery that is largely a family cemetery. I mean, I'm related by blood or marriage to most of the people who are in that cemetery, so she's buried there where the other Bells and the Rileys are. Toby Jenkins: And so you were...your family was in Kansas City at this time, or...? Bob Odle: Yes, they had moved...my grandmother and grandfather had moved to Kansas City, and I think most of my...all of my aunts and uncles were born in Kansas City, and my mother was born there, and...and so that's...that's where I was born. Toby Jenkins: Now, did you grow up there? I mean, was that what you spent your childhood? Bob Odle: Yes. I went to Munger Elementary School, which was named after a farmer who donated that land to the school district, and it was a little eight-room, four downstairs and four 4 �upstairs schoolhouse with a prefab outside for the 7th and 8th grades, and 6th and 7th grades. And so I went to Munger for the first three years, and then North Kansas City had a bond issue, and they built some new schools because that area of Kansas City was growing. They built right across the street from Munger, they built Oak Ridge and just a few blocks from us they built Maplewood. I went to Maplewood for the fourth and fifth grades and then my mother remarried and we moved to Tulsa, Oklahoma where I went to Luther Burbank for one year. TPS has recently sold that building. And then I went to Bell Junior High for two and a half years and then we moved over to 27th Street and I finished the ninth grade and went through high school at Nathan Hale and then got a scholarship to the University of Tulsa. I applied various places but TU gave me a scholarship that paid half of my tuition which was $600 a year. Toby Jenkins: And what year would that have been that you graduated? Bob Odle: I graduated from Nathan Hale in 63 and from TU in 67. Toby Jenkins: And how new was Nathan Hale? Was it a pretty new high school? Bob Odle: It was brand new that first year I went there. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember what your graduating class, how many were in your graduating class? Bob Odle: I contend there were 450 but some people, some members of my class say there were fewer than that. I don't know, I haven't counted the pictures in the yearbook. I keep thinking I must do that and I haven't. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, by the 70s it was up in the 2000s. Bob Odle: Yes, they added a wing. Toby Jenkins: But I think today Nathan Hale's graduating class is about 200. Bob Odle: Well, yeah, they added classrooms to the building. Quite a few classrooms after I graduated. Toby Jenkins: So was your family glad that you were going to school in Tulsa instead of getting accepted someplace else? Bob Odle: Well, they were glad I got a scholarship which was $300 which paid half of my tuition. And my books altogether, my books cost less than $100. Toby Jenkins: I don't think I ever paid $100. What did you study at TU? Bob Odle: I was a theater major. Toby Jenkins: And so this would have been in 1963 when you graduated. What was going on in our country at that time? I mean this was shortly after Kennedy had been assassinated. 5 �Bob Odle: No, it was when he was assassinated. That was a sad day that I remember that day. And the several days afterwards when we had no commercial TV. And Channel 2 played Handel's Largo during all of the station breaks. And we went until Monday after the funeral with no commercials on TV. And 24-hour coverage of the funeral and people visiting the White House and the Capitol. Toby Jenkins: Were you in school when y'all heard this news? Bob Odle: It was just my first time at the Baptist Student Union. They should have told me never to go back. My first time there and I went to class and a friend of mine who had a little portable radio said the president has been shot. And what's he talking about? He's crazy. And then it was during that class, I had humanities at 1 o'clock. It was during that class then that it was announced that the president was dead. I gave a friend a ride home and we listened to the radio. And the radio was covering the funeral and the death of the president. Toby Jenkins: And this would have been your freshman year? Bob Odle: It was my freshman year, yeah. It was a sad day. It was a sad several days. Couldn't believe that in the 20th century a president would be assassinated. I just couldn't believe that. Toby Jenkins: What were you studying at TU? Bob Odle: I was majoring in theater. I had a minor in English lit and a minor in education so I could get my teaching certificate. It was then, and I didn't know this until, I was so naive. I'm incredibly naive, even now. I heard after the first show that the person who played the lead and some other people were gay and, what? And so, later, I think the person who told me that had the hots for me for years. I think I later found out more and more people in the theater department, which is where I hung out, were gay and, oh, okay, I didn't know that. I had no idea. Toby Jenkins: Did you understand what that meant? Bob Odle: Oh yeah, I understood what it meant, but I just didn't know that they were gay and that there were so many. Toby Jenkins: So you were like in Gay Head Start, the theater department at TU. Did you, had you by that time, I mean, by then you're 18, adult, and you're a young male college student. Had you begin to realize about your own sexual orientation or was it? Bob Odle: Yeah, I went through a period, and I think it's not unusual, of denial. And, let's see, I was molested when I was like 12 years old, and I didn't know, I just, I didn't know anything about that. I just, it was when I was 15, I finally said, no, I don't want to do that anymore. Well, I didn't want to do it with somebody older, I wanted to do it with some of my classmates. And I remember when I was like in the seventh grade at Bell, the day we all suited up in our white tshirts and our white gym shorts and our white tennis shoes. And I walked, there were these other boys, and whoa, wow, I mean, this thrill went through me. Whoa, whoa. And so... 6 �Toby Jenkins: So you're in college, and you're in this program, and I guess it was gossip people were talking about people being gay. Bob Odle: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Was it in college that you began to, I mean, did you have a relationship with another student, a person, or? Bob Odle: No, not really, but there was one person who was in my English class who I had seen go to the, it was the Baptist student union, that was the reason I went that one day, and I went back subsequently. I did have the hots for him, and it was, he dropped out of school, I think, after the first semester of our freshman year. And in the past year or so have found out, I suspect he was killed in Vietnam. I suspect he joined the army, that school wasn't really for him. And when he didn't show up at any of our classes, and he was no longer on campus, I did feel like my heart was broken. I mean, I really had a crush on him. Toby Jenkins: So when he left school, I mean, you didn't know where he went, and so did you quit going to the Baptist Student Union after that? Bob Odle: No, I continued to go because I knew some other people who were there. Toby Jenkins: What was TU like in those days, in the 60s? Bob Odle: We had to wear our freshman beanies for the first six weeks. I still have mine somewhere, I tried to find it for the 50th anniversary, that's when I, oh no, this was 50 years after graduation. It was red, alternate red and yellow panels with a red 67 in the front panel, and we had to wear those for the first six weeks, I mean, that was the rule. We had to go to orientation like once a week. We had to take six hours of religion. I took Old Testament history and origin and principles of Christianity. Bob Odle: Later, they reorganized and we didn't have to take any religion, and I'd already taken six hours, and so we had to go to chapel, I don't know, maybe once at least…. Toby Jenkins: A week, once a week, or once a semester? Bob Odle: No, I think once in the first six weeks. The class of 68 had blue beanies with yellow 68 on the front. That was the last class, I think, that had to wear beanies. Toby Jenkins: About how many students do you think were at TU at that time? Bob Odle: I think they've held steady at about 4,000 to 5,000. Toby Jenkins: And so that would have been at the time when Tulsa was the oil capital of the world and TU was known as the top geology, or what am I saying? Petroleum engineer. Yeah, petroleum engineer. 7 �Bob Odle: There was one guy in the theater department who was from Egypt and he was in theater, but he, I think, came for petroleum engineering, which is why a lot of people were there from other states. Toby Jenkins: So you talked about the military and the Vietnam War. Tell us about that. Were there lots of students who were leaving? Bob Odle: I was not aware of any at that time because I graduated in 67, so the buildup, I think, started in 65, but I was not... We had student deferments as long as we were in school. Toby Jenkins: Were you in the military? Bob Odle: No, never. They didn't want me because I was gay. Toby Jenkins: You remember your draft number? Were you subject to a potential call-up? Bob Odle: I don't remember that. That's been so long ago. Toby Jenkins: So they didn't want you because you were gay. Tell us about that. I mean, by then, you were acknowledging…? Bob Odle: Well, I remember they had me come in and talk. There was a sergeant who was in charge of all of the physical examination and whatnot and he had me talk to a captain who asked me if I was sure I was gay, if I was just saying that. He said, I've always remembered, he said, you know this will go on your permanent record. Toby Jenkins: So you actually had to fill out a form that said that? Bob Odle: Yes. That was when... It was like an alumni meeting. All the guys I knew from high school were on the same bus, and some friends from junior high who went to Will Rogers were on the same bus going to Oklahoma City. That was part of what we did that day, was we had to sit down and fill out these forms about what diseases we'd had and if we had homosexual tendencies. So we had to actually fill out a form. Toby Jenkins: You felt like you needed to be honest? Bob Odle: Well, yeah, because I was going to go to law school, and I did go to law school for a while. So I thought, well, I can't lie on this. I think there was a small print that said it was a federal crime or something, and so I didn't want to lie. Toby Jenkins: So the captain tried to talk you out of it, is what you're saying? Bob Odle: He wanted to make sure that I wasn't just... Because a friend of mine said, I remember a party and he was talking about how... He had a high lottery number, so he wasn't chosen, but he said he had the choice of going to Canada or he could queer out. So apparently there were other people who were signing, yeah, they were gay. They had homosexual tendencies or whatever the wording changed to, and so apparently they had encountered that before, people lying about being gay. 8 �Toby Jenkins: This is fascinating to me. I don't know that I've ever had anybody talk about this. I don't know if I've ever interviewed somebody and them talk about the details of that and the possibility that the military wanted to make sure you weren't just using something. So I'm just curious, were you in a room with several people when you were asked this, or was it more of a private discussion? Bob Odle: Well, there was a big classroom with student desks for us to fill out the form, but then the sergeant... I was in a room, an office with the sergeant and a couple other non-coms. He said it would be better to get rid of me then than to go ahead and have me sworn in and have me booted out of the military for being gay. But he decided for some odd reason to have me talk to this, I guess, doctor who was a captain. I mean, I have no idea. They just know he was a captain and they sent me into his office for him to question me about that. Toby Jenkins: So you were able to avoid military service. Do you remember, I mean, you were a college student during these days. I don't know necessarily when… Bob Odle: Well, this was after I graduated that I got that. And it was after I'd taught for a year, too. But teachers had deferments. I mean, I was originally taken after I graduated with this busload of alumni, people I'd known in high school. And then the school board, I got a job teaching and the school board appealed that. And they had just gotten this draft board… I went before these old men. Toby Jenkins: Where were you teaching? Bob Odle: At Central High School, which was downtown. Toby Jenkins: The major campus that's still down there today. Bob Odle: Yeah, PSO owns it now, and AEP. And they had gotten something from Washington that they should give teachers who were teaching deferments or something like that. But I was drafted in the meantime. And so the public schools protested. But it wasn't that I got out of the military. The military didn't want me. Toby Jenkins: Very, very interesting. So well said. Bob Odle: Well, I know of other gay people who've had military experience. Well, and I have one friend who used to live in Tulsa, who lives somewhere in Dallas, I think, now. He was booted out of the Navy and was not happy with being booted out. I mean, there are a lot of gays who want to serve their country and be in the military. But we were not allowed to. And those who were drafted—and I have a friend who was investigated by the Naval Intelligence for a while. They trailed him. And I don't know if he was court-martialed or not. He stayed in the Navy for years and retired as a lieutenant commander. Some of his friends at his funeral said he would have been a commander had there not been that investigation. But he would sometimes go into bathhouses in San Diego or San Francisco in order to have the people who were tailing him leave him alone. 9 �Toby Jenkins: To make them have to follow him in there? Bob Odle: They wouldn't follow him in there. Toby Jenkins: So you said you finished TU and then you started teaching. Bob Odle: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And you had to get a teacher's certificate. Now, I'm just curious, you're teaching—what did you teach at Central High School? Bob Odle: Competitive speech and drama. Toby Jenkins: So you would have probably been my instructor because that's the kind of stuff I was in in high school. So you were teaching…This would have had you probably 21, 22? Bob Odle: I was just barely 22 when I started teaching. And I taught for four years. My goal was to teach for four years, save some money, and go to law school full-time. I went to law school part-time, but I quit to go full-time, and that was about the time we started doing theater. And I thought, well really, I'd rather be an actor than be an attorney. And so I dropped out of law school. My mother was not happy with it. She got over that eventually. Toby Jenkins: So you're a young adult. Had you begun to have romantic relationships with men, or had you connected to the gay community? I mean, you were teaching school. Bob Odle: Well, I had a lot of friends who, being in theater, I had a lot of friends who were gay, and pretty much openly gay. And so, you know, I would think about that, you know. And eventually, after I was doing theater, and eventually, after years went by, because I was in a state of denial. I mean, I lived with a woman for a while. And... But it was because I was in a state of denial, which is not uncommon, I think, and so eventually when we broke up, because it was not destined to be, she lives with her second husband in South Carolina, I think, and I contact her periodically, or she contacts me. But I didn't really have, I still was so closeted. A lot of people probably knew, but it was sometime then, sometime around 1980, I think, that is after we moved into the Brook Theater in 79, it was about 1980 that I decided to go to, well I had been to, I mentioned this at the breakfast the other day, I had been to Saddle Tramps in Oklahoma City years before. I had no idea it was a gay bar. I mean, when I was, I had done Tea House of the August Moon in Tulsa, and then I was asked to join the touring company in Oklahoma City. So I went down to Oklahoma City, and friends put me on a bus, and I went down there, and I saw this limousine parked across from the bus station, and I thought, well it'd be neat if that was for me. It was! The owner of the theater had a huge Cadillac limousine, and I mean the big, stretched thing, and so he took me to the theater, and there were a couple of people in that play, that were in that cast, that were gay. And then I did another tour, and I think some people were gay, and then a lot of people I knew from the theater were gay. 10 �And a friend moved back for a short time to help us open The Brook, I think, with his boyfriend from New York, and they lived together. And so all of this was like, you know, making an impression on me. And so finally in about 1980, well I was going to tell you about Saddle Tramps. The manager of the Gaslight, we were dark on Monday nights, and so one Monday night, and every other Monday we got paid. And so it was a Monday we got paid, and so we all decided to go to dinner, and we went to the Haunted House, which you have to have reservations before they will tell you the address. It's a fabulous old mansion somewhere in northeast Oklahoma City, and they had fabulous food. And so we went there, and those who didn't have cars, because some people had their own cars, but I'd left mine, I'd taken the bus to Oklahoma City. I was in the manager's limousine with some other people, who I think back, I think at least two of them were gay, maybe three of them were gay. And so we went to the manager's house for a little while, and he lived somewhere in northeast Oklahoma City, and not far from the theater as I recall. But anyway, then we went to a bar. He decided, let's go to a bar. So well, I know the bar we'll go to, and we'll go to this bar. Well, it was Saddle Tramps. I didn't know. And it was a Monday night, so nobody was there except us and maybe a couple other people and the bartender. And I went in to use the restroom at one point, and there was a toilet sitting right in the middle of the floor, and there was a bathtub also there. And this is strange. And so I went out and I told the others, you've got to see that restroom. And so that was the first time. Then later on, somehow a friend of a good friend of mine who had been a colleague in teaching and who'd lived just two doors down from when we first moved to Tulsa, her friend was doing drag for the first time at a place called, I think, the Stage Door on Main. And so a group of us went to see him do drag for the first time, and he was not very good, but there was this person in a mini skirt, a mini dress that had flowers on it, and a bouffant wig, who did Harper Valley PTA, was fabulous. And so that was my first time. So later then, I decided to go to a gay bar, and I went to one called, I think, Caruso's, also on Main, maybe a little bit south of where Stage Door had by that time, I think, become a parking lot, as much of downtown Tulsa is. I went to Caruso's, and I went there a few times, and then I decided to branch out and try some others. And I'd heard of people going to Oklahoma City and staying at what was then called the Pepper Tree, it was the Habana, and now it's a different name, and why it's not the Habana, because it's been Habana since it opened in the 1960s. Because I went there as a school teacher, we had our speech convention at the Habana when it was a Best Western. And little did I know that right next door was Saddle Tramps. And because I had, you know, it was dark, and I was being toted around in this limousine, had no idea where I was or what was going on. And so, I heard of people going there, and so I went down there, and I discovered all of the bars in the hotel and on the Strip. And... Toby Jenkins: So during this time, I know you were an actor in the theater companies, and obviously a professional actor, you were being paid. Were you still teaching at this time? 11 �Bob Odle: No, I went back to teaching after, in 1990, I believe. I worked in theater and doing workshops in schools all over the state. And I went back to teaching. A friend of mine, because the oil companies who had given us money had moved to Houston, so they could be hit by hurricanes and flooded by hurricanes. And so a friend of mine suggested, why don't you go back and get your teaching certificate? So at his urging, I did. And so I got a job teaching. I deducted my trips to Oklahoma City for our annual convention for my income tax, because the motel, I had to have a motel while I was down there. I deducted that for my income tax. I went down there and I would always stay at the Habana, and then there were all those bars right there. Toby Jenkins: So I know that was the gay district still, I guess, today is considered that. So during this time, had you ever come out as openly gay to your other theater friends and folks? I mean, had you pretty well, you said about 1979 was when you began to connect to the gay community. Had you told other people that you were gay? Bob Odle: No, not until the friend who'd come here for the opening of The Brook went back to New York, and he'd come back Christmas to be with his parents. And so after a show, I said, why don't we go to a bar? I know a bar at 18th and Main. So we went to Renegades. And then later we went to Tim's Playroom at 11th and Lewis. And that was the most fun. That was a fun bar. Then, later in the 80s, I went to New Orleans and discovered just about all the bars in the French Quarter and some in the Marigny, and met a person who had been a student at Central High School when I was a teacher there. We went to see a play over at the Marigny Theater, which is connected with a bar and around the corner from some other bars. He died, oh, it's been several years ago, and he had heart problems. He was very intelligent, talented, and so I started making sometimes four trips per year to New Orleans. Certainly, I've gone there every year for about 30 years. When the bathhouse closed down there, I went into mourning for two years. I thought about, should I leave a bouquet of condoms and lube outside the front door? Because people leave bouquets of things. I mean, I was like, I miss that. That was a fun bathhouse. After Katrina, it was a member of the club baths, and I had a club card, and they were good at the club baths all over the country. I went to some of the others, and they were not as good as the Club New Orleans. Toby Jenkins: Were you teaching during this time? Bob Odle: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Were you able to be openly gay? In the early days when you got the deferment, I know the school board was addressing their teacher's deferments. Did anybody at your school know that you had got a deferment because you told them you were gay? Bob Odle: No. 12 �Toby Jenkins: Okay. Then while you were teaching here in Oklahoma, were you openly gay? I mean, did your students know you were gay? Did your principal, your ... Bob Odle: No, not that I know of. I think some suspected, but nobody really cared. I was there to teach speech, and I was focused on that. That was my job, and I was focused on doing that, and I also had a humanities class, and I was focused on spreading this notion of the arts, all of the arts, through the ages. I put together a thing on humanities for the first two years myself until ... It took two years before I found a book that also covered Asia, because of my philosophy that we're too Eurocentric, and kids needed to know. I sandwiched into a short period of time 6,000 years of Chinese and Japanese and Indian Middle Eastern art, which is not doing it ... I mean, that should have been a separate class, but it wasn't, and so I wanted kids exposed to that. Toby Jenkins: So that was curriculum? You were writing curriculum for that? Bob Odle: Yes, I did. Toby Jenkins: Okay. What theater companies were you involved in? You talked about you were a paid actor. Bob Odle: Yeah, I worked with American Theater Company for years, and also during some down times when we didn't do many shows, I also worked with Gaslight. Toby Jenkins: Okay. How long were you involved with American Theater Company? Bob Odle: From its inception in 1970 until ... Well, I did a show 2006, 2008. For four years in a row, we did the Rocky Horror Show, the original stage musical, which is much better than the movie. I frequently think that is the case, that things on stage don't translate to film. Toby Jenkins: Live theater is better. Bob Odle: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So how many years would that have been with American Theater Company? Forty? Bob Odle: Well, man. Bob Odle: 70 to almost, yeah, almost 40, 37 or so, I worked. I was on the board after that, for some time after that, but I was just too busy to do shows. And so, you know, but I was still affiliated with the theater, but I've not been on the board for like three years now. Toby Jenkins: What performances were you in, what shows? Bob Odle: Well, on my tombstone, which I have already bought, and it is, although I intend to be cremated and have my ashes scattered, my tombstone, which is next to my mother and stepfathers, and near my grandparents and great-grandparents and so on and so forth, yeah, that's Karl Krauss as Ebenezer Scrooge. And Karl has played that role for years and years. And 13 �so, you know, that's me as Brother Oral Love. That's one of the things on my tombstone. I had Robert, I think Robert Leonard Odle, because I'm named after both of my grandfathers. That was a thing in my family for a while after both grandfathers or grandmothers. And so I have Brother Love and Tartuffe, Captain Hook, and there's one other that I keep forgetting, but it's one of my favorite roles I ever played. But those are three of the ones. Toby Jenkins: So I know Christmas, Carol, is kind of like a Christmas tradition. Bob Odle: I know, I never, the second year we did it, one of the reviewers for one of the Tulsa papers said, this needs to be a tradition. And I thought, and well, it has become that. This is, I mean, this fall will be 50 years since Rick and I wrote that. Toby Jenkins: Well, I'll just let you know whether you are surprised that it became a tradition. In my family, I took my children to see it, and now I have grandchildren, and all of us have made it a part of our Christmas tradition. We don't go every year, but we've been multiple times. Bob Odle: I go every year. I mean, I love that story. It's a great story about giving. Dennis Neill: We spent a little more time talking about Joyce Martel and the Oral Action Singers, how that originated and your role in it and the longevity of that show. And did ATC actually own the Brook at that point in time? Bob Odle: No, we rented it or leased it, I don't remember which. But, well, Jerry Pope and Rick Averill and I, Rick always wrote the music. Jerry and I would, he would write one scene, I would write another scene and so on until we wrote the play. And it's about, it was essentially about balanced growth in Tulsa and the reason we didn't have balanced growth. And we did some stereotypical characters. And one was this religious figure, which we called in that musical, Seth Righteous. And so that sort of began it. Then a year later at Cain's, we opened and ran a month with Joyce Martel is Alive and Well and Living in Paris, Texas. I think that title was based on something that was on T, Jacques Brel is Alive and Well and Living in Paris or something. Anyway, so, but we decided not to call it Seth Righteous, to call it Oral Love because of the combination of the double entendre there with Oral Roberts out South and, you know, and the act of sex. And so we did that at the Cain's for a month and then they decided we were too bawdy for Cain's. That was when the people who had Cain's at the time were having people do the alligator and people were actually having sex in the audience. But we were too bawdy for them. So we moved to the Inferno, which is now the location of a car wash on South Peoria. The Inferno had a big sign outside that said topless lunch from 11 until seven. It was a long lunch. You would eat a lot of food. And we went in there and, like the first day we went in there, one of the dancers named Snowball grabbed me by the crotch and led me into the bar. So we did it there for a couple of months. Then we moved to Captain's Cabin, which was at 41st and Memorial. It's where Richard De La Fonte, a hypnotist, was working most nights and he had the prime weekend nights. Then we closed the show because we were going on the first of our summer tours. 14 �We talked about it during that summer tour and we came back and performed on the roof of the Mayo parking garage for a month- the coldest September on record, I think, and then the hottest day in October- we moved to the ballroom inside upstairs and we had this huge box that was two 4x8 sheets of plywood with about that much wood in between the shelves and all of our props and some of our costumes, and it wouldn't fit in the elevator shaft. So we had to take it to the freight elevator and we had to ride up on top of the freight elevator. We had to take it down to the basement, move the thing in on top of the freight elevator, take the freight elevator up to the floor below the ballroom and open the doors and move the thing out. It was a nightmare. Dennis Neill: So, Bob, this is all in the early 80s, right? Bob Odle: This is 75. Dennis Neill: Oh, okay, so now, which show are you talking about right now? Bob Odle: Joyce Martel. Dennis Neill: I saw it when I moved to Tulsa and I moved here in 77. Bob Odle: That was, oh well, we did the best of Joyce Martel in 76. And then in 77 we were at the Crest Club at the Mayo. We did some shows in the crystal ballroom, some shows we did downstairs in theToby Jenkins : Do you remember where you saw it? Dennis Neill: I thought I saw it at the Brook, but I could be wrong about that, correct? Bob Odle: Yeah, we didn't open that. 61579, that was the code on the security, the security system. Dennis Neill: I remember you and the flaming Bible, right? Bob Odle: Yeah, well, I used that for a long time. Dennis Neill: Okay, maybe it was another show. Bob Odle: We did the best of Joyce Martel, and then we closed that. And then in 77, well, we did some shows in the Pompeian Room, which is an artificial room they put because it was a two-story lobby, but they put a floor in and had this large meeting room called the Pompeian Room and it had Roman murals all around. It was horrible. Dennis Neill: So any pushback from Oral Roberts and the university with regard to the action singers? Bob Odle: Well, not then so much. We moved to the Brook, we continued, we did the Crest Club- and I don't remember what that show was called- right offhand. Then we got this deal with the Brook and we moved in there and we converted it from a movie house to a legitimate 15 �theater and we opened in June of 79 with huge, gigantic those spotlights on Peoria and drew a lot of attention. We had the marquee out front and some friends who had seen the show were friends with a man who made all of Oral Roberts' trinkets that he gave away for a donation and he had a pretty large house out south and it was his 50th birthday and they had happy 50th birthday up on the roof in big letters, eight feet tall. I mean they were huge letters- and so they decided he had all this money and he had everything he wanted, so they would give him something he wouldn't normally get, and so they gave him Brother Oral Love as his birthday, as entertainment for his birthday party, and there was a big crowd there. Some of the provosts of ORU was there and there were some other ORU people there and there were some of the people in the audience who just loved what I was doing. There were some who stood stony faced. Then one year, I don't remember what we renamed the show, we did a new show every year, which was a nightmare to write. But we did a show and I thought, okay, I'm going to write this sermon this year. What would I do if I were totally corrupt? And, you know, so, you know, like Jesus spent time in the desert. Well, I owned a house in Palm Springs. And because that's in the desert. And I had a Mercedes-Benz because there's a Janis Joplin song, Oh Lord, won't you give me a Mercedes-Benz. So I always ended with that. And the thing is that summer, Shoals, Jerry Shoals, I think his name is, published his book about Oral Roberts, the time he had worked for Oral Roberts. And it turned out he did have a Mercedes. He did drive a Mercedes. And he did own a house in Palm Springs. I mean, the stuff, if I were totally corrupt, this is what I would write. This is what I would do. Well, it turned out that was real life. And so Shoals came to see the show at least once. And he was tailed. They had people watching his every movement. Whether Oral actually knew about it or not, I don't know. But some of the people at the university did know what I was doing. But I got paid, so who cares. Toby Jenkins: So during this time, all these years, I assume you were teaching also but still doing theater. Bob Odle: No, at that time I was just doing theater. I had no time. Toby Jenkins: Was the theater community, live theater in Tulsa, did people attend the performances? Did it have lots of support? Bob Odle: We seated 750. That was what the fire marshal would allow in the building. We had lines that went from the box office around the corner and back to the alley, which is where our stage door was. I mean, we could stand and talk before the show to people who were going to see the show, maybe if they got in. Because we only seated 750. Dennis Neill: Those were the good old days. Those were great shows. Bob Odle: They were. 16 �Toby Jenkins: So looking back during those days and presently, is there still a lot of support in Tulsa for live theater? Bob Odle: I think so. I think Theater Tulsa is having, some part of it is the rent at the PAC. And Theater Tulsa has opened their place where I'm going tomorrow night and Saturday night, 55th and Peoria. It's a converted Dollar General store. And there are a lot of little splinter groups that do stuff. American Theater Company, I don't know. I mean, we always did five shows and we did a summer show. And at times we had like two or three shows running simultaneously. When we had Joyce running at the Mayo and Christmas Carol running at the PAC or whatnot. And some other times we did multiple shows at the same time. Because we had 25 people on our staff, full-time, paid. And others working part-time. Toby Jenkins: Who were cast members or writers, producers? Bob Odle: Musicians, concessions, bar workers, so on. Sometimes people in plays. But we had a staff of technicians and actors of like 25. Toby Jenkins: So here at the Equality Center, when we did our renovation about eight years ago, we felt like in our community we were having lots of theater groups that were showing an interest. And especially in our gay community, the queer community, about their interest in theater. One of the passions of some of our folks was that we convert a space into a theater space that could be used for the community, especially to make it accessible for people who wanted to do productions that might not have, you know, they might be cutting edge and be kind of outside of the standard stories to make sure that certainly queer theater had access to those theaters. And of course, it's named after Lynn Riggs, who wrote the story that became the Broadway musical, Oklahoma. Your thoughts about the Lynn Riggs Theater here at the Equality Center and the space and things like that. Bob Odle: Well, I love it. I think it's great. In fact, I was urging American Theater Company, we eventually moved, the Harwells bought the building at 308 South Lansing. And I always said this is a better place because there are posts there and I just like the Lynn Riggs better. I've seen some plays here. I've been to a lot of the Thursday night things and I like this venue. I think it's real neat. American Theater Company went from five shows down to last year, they did four shows. This year, they originally promoted three shows, but they eventually cut that back to one, Christmas Carol. And they do stand up comedy one night. They do, I think they have some drag shows out there. Occasionally, I mean, you know, it's not like the five show season that we used to market and then sometimes a tour or something special during the summer, it's not like that. I think that Christmas Carol hasn't drawn the past couple of years what it used to draw because the people who are managing the theater now determined that Christmas Carol is a tradition. So it doesn't need to be marketed. Well, they still market the Nutcracker. They still market other traditions. It needs to be marketed, people need to know. It needs to not be a secret production. I'm getting off on to my axe to grind. 17 �Toby Jenkins: Where all have you taught school? Dennis Neill: Well, TCC West and TCC North. English, comp. Toby Jenkins: No theater production or? Bob Odle: Well, I did have an acting class one semester and then that got to be a fiasco. It had to do with the management. I don't want to say anything more about that. But I taught at Central High School when it was downtown and I taught competitive speech and I directed plays and then I, well, I taught at Schulter for one year. They needed to bring up their test scores and they hired like the whole new administration and a third of the faculty was new and we brought up the test scores. So they weren't going to close. I hated leaving there because everybody was so supportive but I had this job offer at Mounds. And so it was like half the distance because I'd passed 201st Street halfway to Schulter. And so I took the job at Mounds and I drove down to Schulter to turn in my letters of resignation and to talk to them about, you know, I really liked this. Sorry to be leaving. And so I taught at Mounds for about 30 years and directed some plays, directed competitive speech. We won the state championship three years in a row. I had numerous individual state champions, one of whom never debated, but she is an attorney in Tulsa now and has fabulous commercials on Saturday Night Live and on the evening news. But she never, she persuaded me that she shouldn't take debate to, although she was undefeated. Bob Odle: Now, I'd be better if I took this, Mr. Odle. And so, okay. I mean, she persuaded me. Toby Jenkins: Now, did you ever teach at TU's theater department? Bob Odle: No, I didn't. Toby Jenkins: Were you involved with the? Bob Odle: After I graduated, I did do a play at TU that they then took to some contest at what used to be that horrible theater facility downtown in Oklahoma City [Mummers Theatre]. It's that thing that had boxes going every which way that they finally have torn down. And this should never have been built in the first place. Toby Jenkins: So just for purposes of our interview, the curtains in the Lynn Riggs were donated by TU Theater Department and the risers are from the TU Theater Department right before they closed down. Bob Odle: I know, and they still send me letters asking for money having closed the department that I graduated from years ago. And I think they gave the costumes to the PAC and they gave various other things away. Dennis Neill: We had to replace the curtains because they were out of code. 18 �Dennis Neill: Yeah, I think they had like a 10 or 15 year life. And so we replaced them in about 2020, 2021, something like that. Toby Jenkins: Let's go to our, I was curious to understand the trajectory in Tulsa, the incredible community support for live theater and how things have changed. You've lived through an interesting period. We talked about your, you know, being in college when Kennedy was assassinated. And here we are in 2026. During the, just real quickly, during the pandemic, were you involved in live theater and how the pandemic impacted our theater companies? Bob Odle: No, theater just totally shut down all over the world, I think. Now I, for a year there, I didn't go, except to go to research, I put on my mask and I still have masks in the car. But theater just shut down. And there was money, there was money for businesses that had to shut down and the theater applied for some grants and got some grants. The theater, the theater actually made more money the year we were shut down. They did no shows than some of the years when we'd done shows. Toby Jenkins: Because you didn't have any expenses. Toby Jenkins: Right. So here, I know that you, your family are here. Have you stayed involved in their lives? I mean, have they? Bob Odle: Well, they're all, my stepfather died in 2009 and my mother died just about three months ago. Toby Jenkins: Okay, our condolences. And how old was she? Bob Odle: She was 99 years and eight months and something. Toby Jenkins: Amazing. Bob Odle: She was, she would be, March 15th, she would be 100. And she was, she was doing all of her own, handling all of her business and doing all of her stuff until the very end when she just suddenly, precipitously went downhill. Toby Jenkins: Did she live by herself? Bob Odle: Yes, after my stepfather died, she did. She depended on her neighbor a lot and on me. It wasn't till I had to deal with our, the attorney that deals with our trust, and I had to write down, because I keep my calendars for years, and I had to write down all the times I'd taken her to the doctor and the dentist and the podiatrist and dermatologist and whatnot and to Reasor’s. And I didn't realize the amount of time and the amount of miles I was driving to take care of her. Toby Jenkins: Hmm. Well, I'm glad that she had you, and I'm glad that you had her. Bob Odle: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And our condolences. What do you keep, what keeps you busy now? 19 �Bob Odle: Dealing with her estate. And a good friend of mine, the one who persuaded me to go back and get my teaching certificate and get a master's degree, he died July 10th of 2024. And so I was named co-executor of his estate. And we had to go to court Tuesday. That's why I couldn't meet Tuesday to deal with, we had a hearing dealing with that estate. I'm hopeful that before the two-year time passes, that we will have this probate all aside, but we had a business, we had three houses, multiple vehicles, and other property to deal with, and it's just been, it's been a nightmare. That has kept me really busy, and dealing with my mother, and now dealing with her estate, and trying to keep my own life going. Toby Jenkins: Now, are you involved in, I know that you're involved here in the organization, you come to some of the programs for older adults. Bob Odle: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And are you involved in any other advocacy work, or political work, or? Bob Odle: Well, Tuesday, Tuesday I had to drop off the king cake, because it was Mardi Gras at the senior citizen breakfast. Then I dashed to the Tulsa Metropolitan Area Retired Educators Association, because I'm a retired teacher, and I took some sausage rolls to that, and stayed for that meeting. We always have interesting speakers. And so I'm involved in that. Last Friday was the Democrats' monthly luncheon at Interurban, and we have fascinating, well, Cindy Munson, who's the candidate for governor, spoke. And we always have fascinating speakers there. And so I go to that, and then I think there was one night this past week, maybe Tuesday night, Tuesday was a busy day, I went to Connie Dodson's kickoff for her campaign for school board, and I don't live in her district, but the idiot who represents that district now, I would like to see defeated. Toby Jenkins: So you're politically active. Bob Odle: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And what is your present feelings about our, I mean, you've lived a long time, you've seen a lot of things. Bob Odle: Go back to the Truman, I remember when President Truman was reelected. Toby Jenkins: What's your present feelings about our political climate, and how you see, okay, yeah, yeah. Do you have some concerns? Bob Odle: Yes. I'm concerned about whether I've been contributing to a couple of the candidates for Congress, not the one who made a million millions while paying his employees minimum wage, but I've contributed to others, one of whom is my school board member, and I'm contributing, but I'm concerned about whether we're even going to have an election or any more elections. I'm concerned about what the Supreme Court might decide, whether they would give him free license to totally trample or burn or tear up the Constitution. 20 �I mean, a guy who was fired from, I saw a guy who was fired from ABC News on MSNow the other day. I don't remember his name, but I remember the interview where he talked to the president about the things in the Oval Office, or here's a copy of the Declaration of Independence. What does that stand for? Well, it's a declaration, and it deals with love. All of the he hases, that whole list of he hases deals with love, and yes, it's a declaration. That's in its title, the Declaration of Independence. Toby Jenkins: I mean, duh. Bob Odle: How stupid do you have to be? He is pretty stupid. Toby Jenkins: So you see our political climate, and you see the way, not just constitutional norms being eroded, but specifically the erasure of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer people, the blacks, American Indians, the arts being stripped of funding, the Kennedy Center, as a person who's fought and taught and been instrumental in keeping fine arts alive in our culture. What are your thoughts on that? Bob Odle: Well, it's not just gay rights. It's black rights. I mean, he complains that the National Museum of the Black Americans, or whatever that is, this Smithsonian institution, deals too much with slavery. And he has said there should be less emphasis on Martin Luther King Day, or Juneteenth. We should focus more on his birthday. He has insisted that that November 12th be called Columbus Day and not Indigenous Americans Day, which in the city of Tulsa and maybe Oklahoma, a lot of states have declared it to be Indigenous Americans Day. I mean, he and our governor, our governor waves his Cherokee citizenship card around, hate American Indians. He hates black people. I mean, is it any surprise that some of the generals that have been fired have been black? Toby Jenkins: And female. Bob Odle: And the two journalists, well, the commandant of the Coast Guard was female. And the two journalists who were arrested in church were both black. Two of them were black. And he, I mean, his racism goes back generations. He and his father were fined, what, two million dollars by the federal government for not renting to black people in their apartment buildings back in the 60s or 70s. I think that goes from his grandfather coming over here from Germany under suspicious circumstances whereby Germany, when he went back after World War I, Germany refused to have him and send him back here because he had avoided the draft. He'd avoided the draft by coming over here. He didn't tell them he had homosexual tendencies or anything like that. Apparently he didn't. But I don't know. The racism, and his grandfather grew up in Germany at a time when Wagner was heavily racist, when Adolf Hitler was being born and was growing up, when there was a lot of racism in Germany at that time. And so he brought that over here and instilled that in his son and his grandson. 21 �Toby Jenkins: So, as we come to the close of our interview, is there anything else you want us to talk about that we haven't talked about? Bob Odle: Not that I can think of, except I'm sad that there is only basically one gay bar in Tulsa. It doesn't give us much variety. That's why I like New Orleans. There's a lot of variety down there. A lot of cities have more variety than we have. Although they have gone to publishing a calendar and they have Latin Night, which starts at 10 o'clock on the last Friday. They have Leather Night. They have various nights. So they have opened it to various people. But I don't go there very often because it's boring. Hardly ever do I see anybody my age or anybody I know there, so I don't go. Dennis Neill: So, Bob, why do you think that in the early 80s we had like 19 bars. We're down to a handful. What do you think has caused that demise, even though our city is larger? Bob Odle: Well, I think from what I observe in Tulsa and in other cities, I think part of it is the AIDS crisis. I think there was a diminution of the audience after that. I think the pandemic that hit in 2020 is part of it. And I think also we're at an age when I think this is wonderful in a way, but in a way I think it's depressing. Young gay people can go to any bar, hold hands, kiss, hug, whatever, and nobody really cares. I see this in New Orleans a lot. I saw Lafitte's Blacksmith Shop, which is where Lafitte's in Exile first started, except they've dropped the exile now. Until the owner of the building found out they were gay and they already moved them out and then they moved into a bigger place down the street. But I've seen people holding hands. I've seen, obviously, gay couples in there and in other bars here in Tulsa and in other places. And I think it's the acceptance of gay couples everywhere, in addition to those other things, but I think it's just an evolution. And I think it's a wonderful thing. Dennis Neill: You touched on AIDS. Can you talk a little bit more about your personal experience in the theatre, in the theatrical community, the impact both locally and anything you know. I am thinking about John Thomeyer who was so active and passed from AIDS. What has been your personal experience with AIDS? Bob Odle: Well, an actor who toured with Gaslight, who we then hired as part of our full-time staff, eventually quit and moved to New York. And there he began to exhibit all these different, you know, symptoms and died a number of years ago. A good friend who was in some of our first shows, our first season, moved to New York. He got cancer, some sort of colorectal thing, and he retired and he moved back to Tulsa. He eventually died, but essentially it was AIDS, you know, HIV. And then another friend who died in New York, he was from Tulsa, graduated from Will Rogers, was a student there when I did my student teaching at Will Rogers. And he did some shows with us early on, but then he moved to New York and he eventually died, I believe, of AIDS. And so I've known people who've died. I haven't known of anyone, oh, there's somebody, I can't think who it was, but there's somebody I do know who died….I didn't know him very well, but he died of AIDS. And I'm aware of numerous people who've died of AIDS, HIV. 22 �Dennis Neill: And were you ever involved in the 80s and 90s with some of the support groups around here or AIDS response within the Tulsa community? Bob Odle: I went to one meeting at Nancy McDonald's house of PFLAG, but I just didn't have time to get involved with that. And I was involved with you and three or four other people in reorganizing TOHR. That was in the 80s. But I really didn't have time because I was still doing theater at the time, and I was out of town doing tours and things, and I really didn't have time to get involved. And that's the thing about doing theater now, because I'm so involved in some of these social and political things. I hate to give up, because I gave those things up when I was doing theater, because almost every night I had to work. Now I hate to, I can't give up the political and social things I'm involved in. It's that time of my life for me. Toby Jenkins: So as we kind of come to the close, and just give you a minute to think about this, is there anything you would want to say to anybody who comes after us, or younger people today who will see this interview? Is there anything you would like to say, like, this is my message to you for the future? Bob Odle: Things will get better. I saw a person who has a shop on Greenwood talking about, he's an older person, talking about younger black people, thinking, why are you so bitter about stuff? Well, they had, young black people are enjoying the fruits of their labor. Young gay people are enjoying the fruits of our labor. But our labor shouldn't stop. It can't stop. Because we have seen from the past year that they can go back, these things can go backwards. Toby Jenkins: So don't stop. Bob Odle: No, we have to keep fighting for our rights. It was Hubert Humphrey who said, freedom has to be won every day. Toby Jenkins: Very good. Okay, if you'll give us your name one more time, and today's date. Bob Odle: Bob Odle, February 19th, 2026. Toby Jenkins: Thank you so much for your time with us today. Bob Odle: Well, thank you. Toby Jenkins: Thank you, Bob. Addendum: 23 �Robert "Bob" Odle dressed for the role of "Rev. Dr. Oral Love" for a production of "Joyce Martel," produced by the American Theatre Company of Tulsa, OK. The company performed this production at various venues from 1975 to 1985, some of which include the following: Cain's Ballroom, The Inferno, The Captain's Cabin, Mayo Hotel, and the Brook Theatre. The image shows Odle dressed in a church minister's robe while clutching a one dollar bill. Phot courtesy of the Museum of Tulsa History. 24 �Depicting five theater actors dressed as "Martels" in the finale of the production "Joyce Martel: They Say It's Your Birthday," produced in 1985 by the American Theatre Company at the Brook Theatre in Tulsa, OK. The actors and actress are as follows (left to right): Robert "Bob" Odle, Karl Krause, Melanie Fry (in the role of Joyce Martel), Greg Roach, and Tony Gates (kneeling). Photo courtesy of the Museum of Tulsa History. 25 � https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/92b7672f465b31469e90f256836e0487.mp4 4594a2c03a0488471c94cd800d12db1f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert (Bob) Odle Oral History Interview - Feb. 19, 2026 Video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Robert Odle Interview Subject The topic of the resource Robert (Bob) Odle Oral History Project Interview from February 19, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robert Odle, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 19, 2026 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Toby Jenkins on February 19, 2026. Bob was born on May 15, 1945, in Kansas City, Missouri. His mom and stepdad moved to Tulsa when Bob was in the sixth grade. He graduated from Nathan Hale High School in 1963 and finished his theatre degree from the University of Tulsa in 1967. He was required to go to Oklahoma City for a possible induction into the military as this was the height of the Vietnam War. After two interviews, it was clear that Bob was gay and not subject to military service due to the ban at that time on homosexuals in the military. He began a teaching career in competitive speech and drama at Central High School in Tulsa. He discussed his early involvement in theatre with Gaslight Theatre and the American Theatre Company with its early satirical takes on Tulsa, Oral Roberts University and co-wrote ATC’s production of “A Christmas Carol,” which continues to be performed each December for some 50 years. Bob created the Brother Oral Love role that became a fixture of ATC’s shows along with the Oral Action Singers. Bob has stayed politically active, often writes reviews of plays and musicals and serves in other volunteer roles in the Tulsa community. 2026 A Christmas Carol American Theatre Company American Theatre Company (ATC) American Theatre Productions ATC ATC productions Bob Odle Brother Oral Love Central High School Gaslight Theatre interview military inclusion Nathan Hale High School OKEQ Oral History Project Oral Action Singers oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Oral Roberts University Robert (Bob) Odle Robert Odle Toby Jenkins transcript TU Tulsa Central High School University of Tulsa video