3 20 681 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/9ab7b81afd063d59b9185dcb89d02670.jpg 247cc1609f0b5e3173808903f408c8ec Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Newspaper article Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2009] Over the Rainbow: Tulsa Pride has evolved during the last 30 years, receiving much local support Subject The topic of the resource Pride 2009 Description An account of the resource Article covering Pride 2009. Discussion about the growing acceptance of LGBT rights in the United States. Focus is on resistance from within the state and support from Tulsa. Noah Blatt, 9 years old, was grand marshal of the parade after donating $11 to OKEQ. Includes picture of performer Mindy Bartlett. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Erin Fore Urban Tulsa Weekly Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Urban Tulsa Weekly Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Urban Tulsa Weekly Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 2009 June 2009 June 4-10, 2009 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Erin Fore Urban Tulsa Weekly Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource News clipping 6x13' Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Newspaper article Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Urban Tulsa Weekly, June 4-10, 2009 pg. 24 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Pride, Tulsa Pride 2009, Oklahomans for Equality, Sally Kern, Toby Jenkins, Mindy Bartlett, Eric Himan and the Adams https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/ba1f3153f94af2d4d56db33bb85de9d0.pdf 2d2f0b53754e65dd3c6b58f984ce2940 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Organizational Structure Subject The topic of the resource Activism Description An account of the resource Document outlining the organizational structure of the Federation of Statewide Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Political Organizations as adopted on July 13, 1997. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Federation of Statewide Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Political Organizations Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Federation of Statewide Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Political Organizations Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 13, 1997 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Transition Team Relation A related resource Federation of Statewide Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Political Organizations Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Organizational Document Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context https://history.okeq.org/files/show/2098 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Federation of Statewide Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Political Organizations National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Activism PDF Text Text �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [1997] Federation of Statewide Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Political Organizations Subject The topic of the resource Activism Description An account of the resource Documents and items relating to the Federation of Statewide Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Political Organizations Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Federation of Statewide Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Political Organizations Relation A related resource Other Organizations and Events Language A language of the resource English Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Federation of Statewide Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Political Organizations National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context https://history.okeq.org/items/show/646 activism Federation of Statewide Lesbian Gay Bisexual and Transgender Political Organizations National Gay and Lesbian Task Force (NGLTF) https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/80148d6fd82c4fb1120d20b177a365f9.pdf 225665e18ebba2395a66e636d13cdc2b PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Dr. Frances Fae Haas Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: May 5, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Mary Bishop-Baldwin using Reduct.Video AI Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Dr. Haas: Summary In this in-depth interview, Dr. Frances Haas shares her remarkable journey from a small-town girl to a pioneering physician serving the LGBTQ community, including HIV/AIDS patients and transgender individuals. She discusses her career, medical insights, advocacy, and the evolving landscape of gender-af rming care. Keywords LGBTQ healthcare, HIV/AIDS, transgender medicine, medical advocacy, Oklahoma healthcare, gender-af rming care, HIV research, medical history, community activism Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Dr. Frances Haas 01:32 Early Life and Education 05:23 Career Beginnings in Nursing 09:19 Journey to Medical School 11:26 First Encounters with HIV Patients 14:07 Stigma and Challenges in HIV Care 15:24 Medical School and Specialization 19:10 Establishing an HIV Practice 21:12 Advancements in HIV Treatment 23:12 Caring for Transgender Patients 26:21 Evolving Patient Demographics 28:34 Insurance Challenges in Transgender Care 30:36 The Journey to Gender Af rming Care fi fi fi 2 �32:59 Navigating Treatment for Minors 36:48 Understanding Transgender Rights and Public Perception 40:07 The Intersection of HIV and Transgender Health 44:07 Community Engagement and Activism 47:47 Ethics of HIV Disclosure 51:05 The Future of HIV Treatment and Education 56:00 Personal Re ections and Family Dynamics 01:03:02 Messages for Future Generations Dr. Frances Haas Oral History Interview May 5, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Thank you for joining us today. It is May 5th, 2026, here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, the headquarters of Oklahomans for Equality, and we are in the Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library, and you're here for a History Project interview. Today our special guest is Frances Haas. Could you give us your name – your full name? Dr. Frances Haas: Frances Fae Haas. Toby Jenkins: Frances Fae Haas. Never knew the middle name. I love it. And she will be with us today. We refer to her as Dr. Haas or Miracle Worker, but we also have Dennis Neill, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, with us today, and Mary Bishop-Baldwin here, a part of the History Archives, and I'm Toby Jenkins conducting the interview. Frances, or Dr. Haas, I'm going to call you Dr. Haas because that's the thing I'm most comfortable with, if that's all right? Dr. Frances Haas: That's ne, either one. Toby Jenkins: So I want to know, we're going to talk about your career in medicine and serving speci cally the LGBTQ community, but I want to nd out a little bit about, you know, how you became Frances Haas, Dr. Frances Haas. Where were you born? Dr. Frances Haas: I was born in Evansville, Indiana. I'm from the little town of Boonville, Indiana, in the southwest corner of Indiana. Toby Jenkins: And was that a big metropolis, or was that a little bitty town? Dr. Frances Haas: Evansville is a small city. Boonville is about 5-6,000 people. Toby Jenkins: And what was your family like? I mean, what did your father do? Dr. Frances Haas: My father was a mechanic. My mother was a telephone operator. I have an older half-sister, and I have a younger full sister. Toby Jenkins: All right. And did you graduate from there? fi fi fl fi 3 �Toby Jenkins: Where at in western Missouri? Dr. Frances Haas: Milo is the name of the little town, but it's kind of close to Nevada and Eldorado Springs. I graduated from Eldorado Springs. Toby Jenkins: Well, that's beautiful country. I know that well. Just curious, what were some of the things that you were interested in when you were a kid or a teenager? Dr. Frances Haas: When I was a kid, I liked a lot of crafts. I was not a girl who played with dolls. You know, I liked plants. I mean, I planted beans out of mom's cupboard and everything. I experimented on plants. I had a mother-in-law's tongue, and I did surgery on it. But they thought I'd probably be something like a botanist or something. And then when we moved to the farm in Missouri, I discovered I liked cows. And so my major when I went off to college was pre-ag. Toby Jenkins: So when you were in high school, were you real good in math and science? I mean, did you have an aptitude for that? Dr. Frances Haas: I was good in the rst two years. You know, I had two years of algebra, two years of Latin, and I did well in school. But it was a bad home life. My rst stepfather was very abusive. There was sexual abuse involved. And so I switched to business. It was just a chaotic, chaotic life. Toby Jenkins: And so you went off to—you graduated from— Dr. Frances Haas: Eldorado Springs High School. Toby Jenkins: And then where did you go to college? Dr. Frances Haas: I went to Missouri Southern in Joplin in pre-ag. My mother picked where I would go. I didn't have any choice in the matter. And after one year of college, I went home for the summer. My rst stepfather was an alcoholic. He'd gotten pretty violent and all. Actually, my little sister and I got kicked out at 18. She was 17. And so we went down to Joplin, stayed at the YWCA. And I got myself a job as a nurse aide in the nursing home. And she got a job at the stockyard in the restaurant as a waitress. Igot myself enrolled in nursing school because I thought a nurse aide—an RN, was a nurse aide who made more money. And then— Toby Jenkins: And that was at school there? Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, and got my little sister enrolled. Our father had died when I was 15, so we had some Social Security and VA coming in. It was $146 or less during the period, but I made it through college on that. Missouri Southern was one of the 10 cheapest universities in the United States. Toby Jenkins: And so what years would this have been? fi fi 4 fi fi Dr. Frances Haas: No. My father was a binge alcoholic, and my mom divorced him when I was a freshman in high school and remarried her rst husband, who was my half-sister's father. We moved to western Missouri to a farm. �Dr. Frances Haas: Let's see, I started college in 1969, and then 1970 to 1972, I have an associate of science degree in nursing in ’72. Then I started work as a nurse at the osteopathic hospital in Joplin, Oak Hill. They had medical students start coming in. I never dreamed of being a doctor, never, ever, ever. I was afraid of the doctors, but the medical students were only a few years older than me, and I wasn't afraid of them. So that's when I decided, well, I want to be a doctor, and started taking the pre-med subjects. At that time, a lot of times, I was the only RN in the hospital, and there were no doctors there, so you were just kind of, it was about 100 beds. We're talking about the early ’70s. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so this would have been at the osteopathic hospital? Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, in Joplin. Toby Jenkins: And is that where you went to medical school for your degree, was osteopath college? Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. I took my pre-med subjects there and was interviewing, I interviewed here at OSU medical school program and in an osteopathic school in West Virginia, but I wasn't getting any encouragement. My mother was very much against me going to medical school because she thought that they would force her to pay for it. My brother-in-law, who was a psychiatrist, didn't encourage me to go. I found out later, the reason was that he realized with my personality, my patients would be richer than me, and he's probably right. But anyhow, he was very supportive later. So I gave up the dream, and I moved back to Indiana. That was in 1979. I worked at the local hospital there, and I was assistant director of nursing, an ICU head nurse, and did medical staff quality assurance and utilization review. I told a physician friend who was an osteopath that the decision I regretted most in life was not going to medical school and I was too old, and he says, “I don't think you're too old.” He took me back to his of ce, got me out the American Osteopathic Association Directory, and showed me where they had the schools and all. So I started applying. I don't even have a bachelor's degree. I have an associate degree in science. So I started applying. I had excellent references, even one from the nun head of our hospital. My grades were – some of them weren't so good, and some of them were superb, depending on how much I was partying when I was younger, because I did like to party. I was out of pre-med by about 10 years, and so I applied, and you get turned down and everything. It's discouraging, but I kept applying. And I was at Mass one Sunday, and we were standing up doing the responses that they do in the Catholic Church. I remember the sun shining in, and God said, “Take care of people with HIV.” And that's where it came from. Toby Jenkins: Wow. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, and I just knew at that point, I'm gonna get in. Just keep trying, and whatever you do, help people with HIV. So then I did get in. I was an alternate; I almost didn't get to go. I missed all of orientation. Toby Jenkins: And what year would that have been? Dr. Frances Haas: 1991. Toby Jenkins: 1991. fi 5 �Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. I missed all of orientation, because they called when I had been down in Mexico visiting. I had a foreign exchange student. I'd been down in Mexico visiting them, and came back on Amtrak, and got home about eight in the morning. That afternoon, I got a telephone call from Kansas City University, which is the one I wanted to go to the most. I'd had an interview there, I was an alternate. But I didn't think I was gonna get to go, because it was time for school to start. They said, “We have an opening. Can you come?” And I said, “Yes.” And I said, “When do you want me there?” They said as soon as you can get here. So that was a Tuesday afternoon. Wednesday, I went in and quit my job. Actually, the university had called my work, trying to nd me, because they were trying to get ahold of me, and they couldn't, so they called my place of employment. So theyToby Jenkins: And that was in Indiana? Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, so they all knew. They got together a going-away party for me, bought me an otoscope and a ophthalmoscope and everything. Then I had to go to Evansville to get a pair of glasses, because I'd lost mine on the trip, and I was blind as a bat, and then pack my car. Thursday I drove 500 miles to Kansas City. Friday I enrolled at the school and had my physical in the dean's of ce and started school on Monday. Toby Jenkins: Wow. Dr. Frances Haas: And it was hard that rst year. I remember I struggled. Toby Jenkins: And how old were you? Dr. Frances Haas: I was 39 when I was accepted, and I wasn't even the oldest woman. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been 1991? Dr. Frances Haas: Uh-huh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: And were you partnered at this time? Were you married? Dr. Frances Haas: No, no. Toby Jenkins: So you were single. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Toby Jenkins: And you had been working in Indiana. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: In nursing. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And so you'd had this religious experience where you felt like you were called to do this. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. fi fi fi 6 �Dr. Frances Haas: I think my rst exposure to an HIV patient was when I worked for about six months out at Stanford University in California. And there was a young man brought in to our unit. It was a med-surg unit. And they said he was from San Francisco and that he was gay. I remember him as being very thin, and he had lymphoma of the brain. This was probably about 1975, 1976. This is before HIV was there. When I was out at Stanford, we used double doses of antibiotics. If it said every six hours, we were giving it every four on these patients that were being transferred in. But that one young man I'm pretty sure had HIV. It just was not recognized at that point. At that point, we didn't use gloves. I've had so many needle points – needle sticks – as a nurse that I can't – I lost count. So there but for the grace of God go I. But I can remember that young man and him dying and all with brain lymphoma. Toby Jenkins: So when did you begin to, like as a nurse, there in your work in Indiana. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: You lived, you were right in the middle of nursing. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: When HIV and AIDS had made it to the middle of the heartland. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. There was a patient brought into our little hospital. We weren't a big hospital. And it was the son of our unit clerk. Actually at one time, he'd been my orderly and then he'd gone off to the military and come back. He had a respiratory illness and there was talk going around. This was in the ’80s. So there was a lot of fear and everything. And I remember I did medical staff quality assurance at the time and the respiratory therapist was pushing me to have him checked for PCP pneumonia. I pushed back against it because he was getting treatment for it. I know the physician doing it didn't want that de nite diagnosis out there but he was treating appropriately for it. Because you're in a small town, and there is stigma. His mom worked there and all. I don't know if that young man is still alive or not. But that was probably the rst known HIV patient I took care of. He came in later, and we learned he had HIV. Toby Jenkins: So during the late ’80s, before you went into medical school, and you were working in hospital settings, a clinic, did you see a lot of stigma associated with people who possibly were HIV positive? Dr. Frances Haas: Some. Some. Actually, our hospital administrator from the Daughters of Charity, a little nun, she suggested – the little hospital was having problems nancially – and she suggested making the top oor into an HIV unit. There was some ack about that. What it turned out to be was an alcohol detox rehab unit. They screamed about that because the obstetric unit was up on the third oor. The fear was those druggies are going to go in and kill the babies, which of fi fl fi fi fl 7 fi fl Toby Jenkins: And had you already as a nurse in the hospitals there been working with HIV patients? �course didn't happen. But I always thought this little nun was ahead of her time. She was actually one of my references for medical school. Toby Jenkins: So you go to medical school in Kansas City, and did you specialize in infectious diseases? Dr. Frances Haas: No. I did medical school, and then I was going to do my internship in Joplin, because my mentor was there. My mentor is a cardiologist, and he trained me as a nurse. He trained me as an ICU nurse, and he did training of me as a medical student. But they had a hostile merger going on with Freeman Hospital. The FTC got called in on that, and the head of the program said this is probably not a good place for you to get an education. What about Tulsa? I said that's ne. Well, it turned out that the rst medical student I ever met, Dan Fieker, was the head of Tulsa Regional Medical Center. I didn't interview or anything, just called. He remembered me, and I was accepted in. Toby Jenkins: So what year did you move to Tulsa? Dr. Frances Haas: 1995. I did a year internship, because I didn't know if I wanted to do internal medicine, family medicine, or surgery. And so during that year, Dr. Tom Stees was head of the internal medicine program. I really liked him, even though he's tough as hell. But I mean, if you're going to go to school and you're going to pay that kind of money and all, you want the best. And you don't want an easy program; you want a hard program. And so I decided to do internal medicine. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been through OSU? Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, that was from ’96 to ’99. Toby Jenkins: And OSU hospital would have been called Tulsa Regional Medical Center. Dr. Frances Haas: And then Dr. Beal had the – what's the special program for HIV – it's the Ryan White program. They had the funding for that, but OSU got the program. Toby Jenkins: And what year would that have been? Dr. Frances Haas: ’96. And I can remember, I was so upset, because I was so excited, because I knew I wanted to do HIV at that time. Toby Jenkins: Well, yeah, you'd heard from God. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. And they were going to have residents, and then I can remember Dr. Stees saying that they’d decided the rst-year internal medicine residents couldn't do it. I remember I'd let out a profanity in front of him. I still remember the stunned look on his face. But then, so the second and third year I did the clinic. I was the only resident who liked the HIV clinic. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Were there several coming in, in Tulsa? Dr. Frances Haas: Several? Toby Jenkins: In the clinic? Were there several patients? fi fi fi 8 �Toby Jenkins: And this would have been, through what we call today the OSU Clinic, it would have been – I can't remember what it was called in those early days. Dr. Frances Haas: The Ryan White Clinic. Toby Jenkins: Oh, it was called, okay. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. And I guess the part I didn't like about it was people didn't know a lot. And that “ the best regimen was Crixivan-Combivir”. Well, Crixivan, I mean, yeah, it may be the best medicine, but it's hell to take. It was every eight hours on an empty stomach. You know patients are skipping doses. It gave you nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. It sucked as a regimen, even though it's “the best.” So that was a problem. And then Dr. Baker, who was in charge of the Ryan White Clinic, told me that Dr. (Jeffrey) Beal was wanting to move to Florida, and his clinic was up for sale. So that's how that came about. Toby Jenkins: I did not know that. So you purchased his practice. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. And so he had the old timers in there. And that's when I learned that it may not be the best regimen, but you get a regimen that patient will take faithfully. That's the most important thing is they take it consistently. Because we had what we called Florida-itis: They'd go on vacation, they'd conveniently forget their medicine because, by God, it made them feel like shit. And so you learn to nesse some of the meds so the patients will take them faithfully. Toby Jenkins: Now this medication that you were giving in this time, did it suppress the HIV virus? Or was this prior to the actual effective regimens that we found? Dr. Frances Haas: It suppressed the virus, but you had the side effects, and it made it dif cult to take. Toby Jenkins: And so when you got your practice, they had found the medication that kept people alive. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, Dr. Beal was doing studies, and I never ever thought that I would be doing medical studies, but that was part of the practice I bought. And so I learned to do those, and you got used to nessing, working with meds. It also brought in meds to the Midwest that were not available, except to those on the East Coast, West Coast, and Florida. Toby Jenkins: Because you were doing the research. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. So they came in two, three years earlier than would have been expected, and that led to some of these old-timers still out there because they got started on those regimens. Toby Jenkins: So when you're referring to old-timers, you're referring to lifers who lived with the virus. Dr. Frances Haas: 70s and 80s, yeah, that affected them. fi 9 fi fi Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah, yeah. �Toby Jenkins: All right, thank you. And that would have been what year that you started doing the research? Dr. Frances Haas: I started in Dr. Beal's practice July 1999, and then he left January 1st, 2000. Toby Jenkins: So the medication that is helping the patients live and suppress the virus, did you begin to see a dramatic drop in deaths? Dr. Frances Haas: Over the years, yeah. You still, I found that you could suppress the HIV virus, but if you had hepatitis C, that went and killed them. So I started doing hepatitis C studies. With every death I tried to learn on. Like a patient that had pneumococcal pneumonia: I gave them the vaccine. Why didn't it protect them? Well, they got the vaccine when their T-cell count was less than 200. So I found that when I got their T-cell count above 200, I repeat that vaccine because their body was unable to react to the vaccine initially. I hated losing patients, but you're going to, but it's like, try to learn. Toby Jenkins: So was your practice mostly infectious disease, or did you, were you a –? Dr. Frances Haas: It's a mix. Toby Jenkins: You were a general physician. So you were treating all the other stuff. Dr. Frances Haas: I'm an internal medicine physician who has a special interest in hepatitis C and HIV, HIV rst. Then hepatitis C. The transgender population, I didn't know I was getting into that. I had had no training in it, though we did have a, we were going to have a noontime meeting in med school with somebody who was transgendered, but it got canceled, so I never got to do that. So I can still remember the rst transgender patient that Dr. Beal introduced me to and all. And then –. Toby Jenkins: And what year was that? Dr. Frances Haas: 1999. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: And I'm Facebook friends with her. And you probably know her. Toby Jenkins: Well, I have a question. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: On your patient load, about how many people in Tulsa at that time that you had a part of your practice, about how many patients did you have who were living with HIV/AIDS? Dr. Frances Haas: You know, I don't know. Toby Jenkins: Okay. fi fi 10 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah, because, I can remember when I got heavily involved here at the Equality Center, one of the persistent phone calls we had on the helpline, and just people reaching out to us, people were, it was dif cult to nd a doctor. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Who would, and usually it was from somebody who had just recently tested HIV positive, or, anyway, they were, that was a consistent call. And you were one of the few doctors we had that was still taking patients. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. And a problem with the Ryan White Clinic at that time was they had a long wait of time to get in. Those people were scared. So, you know, they, I got a lot of those patients who –. Toby Jenkins: So they were scared because they'd been recently diagnosed? Dr. Frances Haas: Diagnosed, yeah. And they had a –. Toby Jenkins: And they needed to get on the –. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, a three-month waiting period to get into the Ryan White Program. Now, I think that has changed now. Toby Jenkins: Right, and so, individuals who had been recently diagnosed were being told probably – this would have been into the early 2000s – were being told if they could get on medication and treatment, it would keep them from having fullblown AIDS. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So it was a frightening diagnosis. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And then realize you're on a ticking time bomb to make sure you get ahead of the disease. Dr. Frances Haas: And I think the studies we did also helped because a lot of them went on to studies. You got personalized care. I mean, you had a lot of hand-holding by my nurses and education and all – more so than the regular patient. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: And I think it gave you lifelong adherence. You know, it gave them an edge. It's like you had your own tutor in school, your own personal tutor. And so, you know, that basis was there for the rest of their life, for the old timers. Toby Jenkins: So, you mentioned earlier that you didn't realize that you were going to have a practice that included the care of transgender individuals. When did you rst start having transgender patients who were looking for gender-af rming care? Dr. Frances Haas: Well, I inherited those from Dr. Beal's practice. fi fi 11 fi fi Dr. Frances Haas: I don't know. And, you know, there are the old timers, and then I started getting newer ones, too. �Toby Jenkins: So he had a few. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Because he was one of the few doctors who did it. And the patients did a lot of teaching of me. I mean, they had more time than I did to read. They educated me a lot. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Do you have any idea when that you began to see, not just the ones you inherited, but new referrals? Dr. Frances Haas: Like 2000. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Wow. You would have been one of the few doctors in town. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. And one of the things I noticed over the years, initially, a lot of my patients, I knew once they were in their, usually late 30s, early 40s, as the years went by, I had started having parents bringing in their high school students. And that was de nitely a change. Probably around 2005, 2006, that had started, where the younger people, and it was because they recognized it. They didn't, people, the kids knew they were different, but they didn't know what it was. And being heterosexual, as one patient from Owasso told me, she says, “I hung out with the lesbians,” but she never, she says, “I never felt that it was right.” And she was transgender, female to male. Toby Jenkins: So female to male. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: And there's de nitely a difference. Toby Jenkins: Right. So you're doing infectious disease, caregiving, and gender af rming care for transgender persons and gender-expansive persons. I'm trying to make sure I'm using all the current terminology. Dr. Frances Haas: I haven't heard gender-expansive. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So did you have any battles with health insurance companies not wanting to cover certain treatments for all of your populations? Dr. Frances Haas: A lot of times they did not cover the hormones. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. I'm not sure about the of ce visits and all. My of ce manager, you know, could probably tell you that. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: But yeah, the hormones, and we would look, you know, trying to see where we could get the cheapest hormones, you know, what drugstore. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: And at that time there could be a lot of... fi fi fi fi fi 12 �Toby Jenkins: Did you see an increase of this? I mean, did you begin to see more and more and more because people, they, well, insurance companies being more favorable, but also patients by word of mouth, them telling other individuals? Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, because for several years you were where we referred people, you and just a handful of other doctors. Dr. Frances Haas: And I was glad to see the younger people coming in because cosmetic results were much better. The transition to the appearance of the other improved. Toby Jenkins: Right. Made them more passable and less con ict with presentation. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. It's amazing. I'd be there sitting with the patient. We'd be talking about their blood pressure, cholesterol, and something would come up and they would remind me of their biological sex because I get, you know, I'd be talking about prostate and they were a biological female. And, uh, they, they would remind me because they transitioned so well that, you know, you just, you know, they look like a man. Toby Jenkins: So these would have been individuals who were post-surgery. They had... Where did you refer people for surgical? Dr. Frances Haas: Initially, Stanley Biber out in Trinidad, Colorado. I even went out and met him. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: He's a nice old guy. And then, um, Darcy? Marcy? Toby Jenkins: Dr. Marci Bowers. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Yeah. And then her. And then there was a group down in the Dallas area. Uh, I can't remember their names anymore, that, that did a lot of it. And of course, initially, most people went to (Dr.) Biber or Thailand. A lot of people went to Thailand, and I thought, why Thailand? That didn't seem right. But I learned that they were more accepting of gender identity disorder, and some of their physicians had specialized in that. Toby Jenkins: And also, they were more affordable. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, true. Dennis Neill: Right. Dr. Haas, were you a sole practitioner? Dr. Frances Haas: Yes. Dennis Neill: Did you have any issues staf ng your clinic, given the clientele? Dr. Frances Haas: Not really staf ng it. I did hear a horror story from Dr. Beal about his of ce before I got there. I guess they were having new carpeting put in, and the fl fi fi fi 13 �guys came in and did it, and when they found out that it was an HIV practice, they didn't come back after lunch. And Dr. Beal could tell you a lot of stories about that. Dennis Neill: And then how about – you mentioned your service to adolescents looking at the transition. Were you also working with puberty blockers prior to hormones? So at what age do you see the appropriate transition from blockers to actual hormone therapy? Dr. Frances Haas: Usually, most of the patients who were coming in to me were probably around 16, 17. And I always made sure that they had a psychiatric evaluation before, because there were a few patients that's like, “I think you're crazy,” but they were patients that had gotten into the system. And they always had to bring a parent in with them. So that was part of it. Toby Jenkins: Now, did you start them on puberty blockers at 16 or 17, or did you go ahead and start them on hormones? Because at 16 or 17, several of them had already begun to –. Dr. Frances Haas: Most of them were coming at that age, so I just started them on hormones. They were kind of a little bit older. Toby Jenkins: And so in your research and your work, just curious if you're comfortable, there's such a debate around it right now, and, of course, Oklahoma is restricting care for minors. Your medical opinion, if you're comfortable telling us, do you have any concerns about the treatment of minors or puberty blockers, or do you feel like Oklahoma's made a huge mistake? Dr. Frances Haas: I think they've made a mistake in some areas. I'm okay with the hormones and puberty blockers, because if you stop them, you can usually reverse. There's some questions about fertility issues and all that. But what I am adamantly against is surgery before the age of 18. And I might even go older than that, because I've had some patients who are transgender, and then as I follow them, they had surgery. And later it's like, well, I've met this person, and it's like it's irreversible. Surgery's irreversible. The puberty blockers and hormones are not, you know. They can be reversed as a rule, but surgery you cannot. And so young people can get mixed up, and they can get confused. And, you know, I'm not the same person I was when I was that age. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: And so I am de nitely against the surgery. I might make exceptions for somebody who's got the characteristics of both sexes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: But those are not very common. Toby Jenkins: Right. Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: And I know I'm probably going to make some enemies with that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, well, but you're a medical doctor. We want your opinion. We want your position on this. fi 14 �Dr. Frances Haas: It's irreversible, and that's why. Toby Jenkins: So you're saying medical procedures for people who are intersex, who have some ambiguity about the genitalia. Okay. But you de nitely support parents and the physicians being able to prescribe puberty blockers and even some hormone therapies prior to 18. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Did you nd that parents came well-informed, or were they aggressive with you, demanding that you do this? I mean – Dr. Frances Haas: The patients, they came well-informed. They'd studied, and it was, uh, “I need help.” I didn't, I don't think I had any aggressive parents. I would occasionally get some aggressive patients who was like, “This is what I want,” and I didn't always agree with them. But they were usually in their 20s or 30s. But the parents, no, it's just like, “Help my kid.” You know, “I want what's best for my kid.” Toby Jenkins: So, um, while you've practiced in Oklahoma, and you've done research on a couple of different areas of specialties, um, has it been dif cult to see sometimes there'd be so much friction from the state Capitol trying to, um – Dr. Frances Haas: I don't understand it. It's like, a, as an example, a transgender person, female to male, could look like you. And I don't want a biological female who's transgendered to a male with a big beard and looks like a guy who's going to rape me in the bathroom with me. I'm sorry. But I have no problems with, say, a male to a female who looks female and everything. You know, it's appearance. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: And it would be dangerous for somebody who looks female, who's a biological male, to go into a male restroom. Vice versa for a male to, or a female to a male who looks male who goes, is required to go into a female restroom. It's going to freak, you know, women out, and especially if they've got their young kids and everything. And I don't think the legislators understand that. I really wonder if they should have an organized group that goes into the Legislature bathrooms and all and says, you know, here's my paperwork. I'm a biological female. You know, that's what, but I'm required to go into this, you know, female restroom. I'm sorry I look like a male, you know. Toby Jenkins: So you feel like the focus is too much on males to females who present as female but may be biologically male, and they're ignoring the fact that there are trans females who, or trans males who were born female and have transitioned and identify and present as male, and you feel like they're too focused on the gender speci cs. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah, and not the appearance. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Is that what's driving, is people's rejection of people, is that what's driving the political animus towards –? Dr. Frances Haas: I think part of it is the politicians, and of course it diverts from other subjects, but I don't think they understand. They don't, they don't understand. fi fi fi fi 15 �It's like when I would be on an airplane taking a trip, sitting next to somebody, and we'd start, you know, talking, I would tell them all, bring up about my HIV and tell them, you know, that I did that, and they'd start asking questions. It was a time to educate, and we need the same thing for the transgender, for them to educate, and maybe trying to meet one-on-one, you know, with legislators and say, you know, I'm a biological female, but they, you know, look de nitely male. And we don't want confrontation. We just want to educate. Toby Jenkins: So, I guess, is it overstating it by saying, obviously what's driving it at the statehouse, the politics, is not good medical science; it's not science; it's just personal animus and bigotry and targeting a speci c community who you don't understand. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, they don't understand it. And I have to say, you know, I didn't understand it. You know, there's a difference between being homosexual and transgender. Toby Jenkins: Right. One's sexual orientation, one is sexual identity. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. A lot of my transgender patients say that they were a male who wanted to transition to female. They look at their penis and their testicles as foreign masses. I mean, they're foreign objects, you know. It's like they're gross. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, very gender dysphoric. Dr. Frances Haas: And my female-to-male looked at the breasts as, oh, my God, you know, and they didn't like them. And I thought one interesting thing on my young people when they come in, female-to-male, and I, you know, would ask them what their bra size was, you know, cup size. And most of the time, they had no idea. A biological female usually knows, “I'm a B cup.” “I'm a D cup.” I mean, you're proud of it. Them, they didn't know, and their parent or a friend would speak up and say, “I think they're about a C cup.” But they never knew because they're binding their breasts. They're hiding them, because to them, they're gross. They're tumors. And I always thought that was an interesting thing. Toby Jenkins: Were all of your transgender patients, by the time they got to you, had they already been seeking counseling and therapy? Dr. Frances Haas: I required them to have counsel and get a referral from a psychiatrist or therapist. Because some of those that I got from Dr. Beale were, it's like I wasn't comfortable with it. And I also reserved, even if I got a psychiatric referral, if it didn't seem right to me, I would refuse to treat. But that only happened once. I checked with the counselor who referred, who was well-versed in it. And she says, “I agree with you.” She says, “But I went through all the testing. And they kind of aced all the questions and everything. But it just didn't, my gut instinct says, “I'm not sure this is right.” And so I went with my gut instinct, and I just declined to treat. Toby Jenkins: So as a physician, I mean, obviously, you want what's best for your patients. So did you have to, even for people living with HIV-AIDS, or just your other patients, did you have to make medical counsel decisions when your patient wanting something that you questioned whether it was good for them? fi fi 16 �Toby Jenkins: So I know over the years, while you've been focused on your patients and your care, you've also kind of been a community activist. I can remember the rst time I met you, it was at the AIDS walk, the annual AIDS walk that we would have in October. And it would be a gathering of the community to raise funds, usually for the Ryan White Clinic and Tulsa Cares. And usually, the money we raised went to those agencies. And that was the rst time I met you. You really stood out. There was a halo around you that said “Dr. Haas.” No, it wasn't that. What made you stand out is here was this little bitty, tiny lady with these massive dogs. And what kind of dogs are those? Dr. Frances Haas: Great Danes. Toby Jenkins: Great Danes. And they were huge. And you were so tiny. And we would do the AIDS walk, which usually was maybe a mile walk. I mean, it was just strictly for fun. But it was to raise funds. Did you enjoy those kind of social interactions? Dr. Frances Haas: I did. Toby Jenkins: You do realize that you added real legitimacy to this when a medical provider was out there? Because most of the time, it was just people from our community, individuals who were living with HIV, and their friends, and their family, and maybe their faith communities. But when the medical providers were there, there was a certain amount of, y'all were going the extra mile. You weren't only treating them. You were ghting for public awareness. Dr. Frances Haas: Well, I think part of that, I'm an osteopathic physician. We treat the whole patient. It's like if the patient can't get the medicine, I need to gure out how I can get the medicine for them. You know, you treat the whole body. It's not just the physical body; it's the mental component, spiritual, any, the monetary, you know, as much as you can. It's treating, you know, the holistic approach. And that's part of it, is being part of the community. And the osteopathic profession actually looks for their medical students. They look at the ones who have been involved. And like, you know, part of my references when I got in, it helped me to get in because my MCAT scores weren't that great. Like I said, some of my grades were good, superb, and some of them weren't so good. But I was active in politics, I was active in church, I was a Jaycee, active in different work things. Toby Jenkins: So your approach, even back when you were nursing, has been a community, you understood the value of community and alliances and resources. I know that there have been many times you've weighed in on negative bills that were being introduced by the Legislature. I want to ask speci cally about a particular bill. Back several years ago, Oklahomans for Equality was trying to advocate for a bill fi fi fi 17 fi fi Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, and that was tough. Some have noticed, and I've seen this with other physicians, as well, when the patient doesn't get what they want, they go and report you on Health Grades. Look at the referrals. It's usually somebody that's like, “They didn't give me my pain medicine.” That's a common one. But I've had patients, I didn't give them the hormones that they wanted. And some of them can get kind of far out there. The minority, by far. But majority of them were, you know, great. �that would not criminalize HIV people for infecting somebody else. And you and I had a big discussion about that, and I'd like to just know your thoughts about that. Criminalization of HIV people is people who knowingly try to infect someone or they don't tell somebody their status and put that person at risk. Now, that discussion was a much larger discussion probably prior to the development of PrEP and PEP and the pre-exposure prophylaxis treatments that are so common now with people living with HIV where the medication almost makes them non-transmittable. Their viral load is undetectable and they're not transmittable. You saw all that develop, so just give us your thoughts on intentionally HIV infecting somebody and the disease. Dr. Frances Haas: I think if you know that you're HIV, you have the responsibility to tell the person that you're going to have a sexual relationship with that you are, and taking precautions. I mean, it's just the right thing to do. Follow the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you don't know that you're infected, and that can happen, and you accidentally infect somebody, that to me is not a crime. But going out and, in fact, knowing you have it and going out and doing it. And I've had patients tell me horror stories I heard. One guy told me about how he and his drug abuse group, you know, stay off drugs, how he purposely slept with every woman in the group. You know, I had another patient who, the guy she was seeing, they were using a condom, and she didn't know that he was HIV, but he was putting a pinhole in on, which she went and checked him, and he had infected her. I had another one who knew he was positive who infected one of my transgender patients. And, you know, a teenager. I had another teenager who, you know, and I always wondered, you know, got infected, gave blood and found out they were infected. And I asked them who did it, and they said somebody at school, but I always worried that he lied to me. And then it was, you know, because I've got to report that stuff. If it's, you know, if an adult would have sexual relationships with a female, or with a... Toby Jenkins: Minor. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Right. Dr. Frances Haas: So I've always wondered about that. Toby Jenkins: And you've kind of seen it all, haven't you? Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Toby Jenkins: And so if I understand you, your position is if you know your status, you should be responsible and make sure that you protect others. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dr. Frances Haas: It's just the right thing to do. Because you wouldn't, I don't think if you knew you were positive and you went out and infected somebody, it just seems so wrong and mean and sel sh. Toby Jenkins: And irresponsible. fi 18 �Dr. Frances Haas: And irresponsible. And, you know, now we've got the preventive, so that really helps. Toby Jenkins: But do you feel like there's almost an attitude? I don't know if you still are, you still practicing? Dr. Frances Haas: No. Toby Jenkins: It does feel like among our culture there is almost a, especially for individuals who are living with HIV that are undetectable and non-transmittable. It does feel like we have such a culture of casualness about it now because everybody just assumes that everybody's on PrEP- the pre-exposure prophylaxis- that everybody's on PrEP and that you don't have a responsibility to be transparent. It concerns me because, you know, I lived through the time when silence was death, and where it seems like right now we're in a real precipitous place because even the federal government is restricting funding for HIV treatment and HIV education and organizations and medical services are struggling to nd nancial support. I mean there are documented situations where some states have already begun. They've kicked off thousands of patients who are getting their treatments, and they're telling them they’re going to have to go nd medication someplace else. Dr. Frances Haas: I hope that their providers are going to some of the programs that the pharmaceutical companies have. I usually get down on pharmaceutical companies, but the ones with the HIV were wonderful. I mean, when I had problems getting meds for a patient, I would call up my rep, and they helped me a lot to get my meds that I needed for my patients. Dennis Neill: With regard to your clinic, when you decided to retire, where did your patients go, particularly those that were HIV or trans? Dr. Frances Haas: The ones that were trans went to a provider- and I can't remember their name, but it's over in the- who is a nurse practitioner or PA. You probably know who I mean. Toby Jenkins: Diversity Clinic. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, and then some of them went to the Ryan White. There was another local doctor that some of them went to. Dennis Neill: So you feel like there is enough capacity in our community to address these clients? Dr. Frances Haas: I don't know. Dennis Neill: And what year did you actually retire? Dr. Frances Haas: I quit in 2021 when I turned 70. It's like, okay, I'm working a 60hour workweek. I'm getting old. It's time to slow down. Dennis Neill: And did you sell the clinic? Dr. Frances Haas: No, I was working for Warren Clinic then, and I retired from them. Yeah, actually, when I bought the clinic from Jeff Beal and I tried to keep it going, but fi fi fi 19 �I couldn't make the insurance companies pay me, and I went broke with being in private practice, and you just didn't have the time because you're working so many hours and you're focusing on the patient to manage, you know, trying to get the insurance to pay, and then I joined University of Oklahoma and taught there for ve years and then I went to Warren Clinic and then retired from there, and since then I've been working for Geriatric Center of Tulsa until February of this year doing geriatric care and also would have residents in internal medicine from OSU and the medical school or the residency in Tahlequah to learn geriatric medicine. And I quit that in February. I wanted to learn osteopathic manipulation better because I had it in school but I didn't have anybody to practice on. So I asked OSU if I could, you know, kind of sit in on their classes, and they said, “Sure, we'll make you a table trainer.” They actually pay me, I said, “But I, I need to learn.” They said, “You know more than those rst-year students,” and so I've learned a lot. It's changed a lot in the past 30 years, and so I'm learning that, and I'm getting ready to start. I really miss patients and so I'm getting ready to start volunteering for I think it's called the Cura – C U R A – Clinic over in Sapulpa. So looking at that. Toby Jenkins: Well, we're always looking for volunteers here at our medical clinic here in theDr. Frances Haas: I don't have insurance. Toby Jenkins: And they have treated a lot of transgender patients. So we've talked a lot about your professional work and your patient work. Are you partnered? Dr. Frances Haas: You mean like a spouse? Toby Jenkins: Yes, yeah, Dr. Frances Haas: I nally married at age 48. Late to go to medical school; late to marry. Don't have any children except the dogs. My spouse has been very supportive of my work. Initially he was afraid that I would, you know, that I'd pick up HIV. But he's learned. I've educated him, And he was in computer management in the ONEOK building; he had a data center there. As he said, all these data centers that they're proposing here, he was kind of the start of it. Dennis Neill: And how about during your practice, your intersection with HOPE, Tulsa Cares, OkEQ, OSU, was that part of your outreach for your clients? Did you have much interaction with those other organizations? Dr. Frances Haas: I had some with OU. I had, would get residents from OU, internal medicine, rotating through. Toby Jenkins: In the medical school. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, and then not too much with OSU. Tulsa Cares, yes, you know, referring people to their nutritional program and all that. We worked together, worked a lot with Sharon Thoele, and HOPE, knew them, and you know, and they would refer patients to me. Toby Jenkins: Patients who had been recently diagnosed. Well, I know you usually attended the World AIDS Day events here at the Equality Center. I think we've had fi fi fi 20 �you speak a couple of times. I just wonder if our panelists have any other questions for you, and did you have anything else you want to make sure we cover? Dr. Frances Haas: I could say after I started doing transgender medicine, my stepbrother became my stepsister. I get a letter. It comes while we're driving out to Colorado, and I read the letter, and it's like, “Oh, well this makes perfect sense, because it's like something's not right about him.” And I can remember my parents, my mom and stepfather, my second stepfather, the good stepfather, talking about, is he gay? You know, they're married, they've got a kid, and when I got that letter, it's like, well this explains everything, and she had surgery in Thailand and everything. Toby Jenkins: So this would be the spouse of your sister? Dr. Frances Haas: It was my second stepfather, his son, is now my stepsister. So, and I've known her since I was 14. Dennis Neill: Now, how's she dealing with it in this new climate? Dr. Frances Haas: Fearful. They're thinking of moving to France. Dennis Neill: Oh, they live in France? Dr. Frances Haas: One reason I am for early treatment is she makes an ugly woman, because she had everything done at 50, started the hormones and all, so you know, you've got the masculinization. And I saw my people who started in high school, the feminization, they just, the appearance was much better. You know, some of them were really drop-dead beautiful. I was stunned. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: What a coincidence, though. Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah, and you know, but she is, you know, a little bit fearful, and talking about moving to France. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: She did move to France. Dr. Frances Haas: She's thinking about it, yeah. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: She hasn’t yet. Where does she live now? Dr. Frances Haas: Vermont. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Okay. Toby Jenkins: Well I hope Vermont's more... Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, yeah. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: One of the more liberal areas. And what happened with her family after she... Dr. Frances Haas: That was kind of interesting. She, she was married, had a daughter. The marriage was a little rocky, and when this all came about, there was a pretty severe divorce, and the daughter went with the mother and was estranged from the father for years. And then on Facebook, the daughter says, who's Susan ******? And my little sister says, “I'm not answering that.” She says, “Let her Aunt 21 �Nancy handle that.” So Aunt Nancy said, you know, “That's your dad.” And so, then we all got together in Phoenix and had a family reunion. So, got back together. She didn't realize what was going on. Her mom had kept it from her. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: How old was she at the time? Dr. Frances Haas: She was probably in high school, but mom just, they just kept it hidden. And she didn't realize the transgender, you know. And so now they have a relationship again. Dennis Neill: Is that true with all extended family too, as far as the transgender? Dr. Frances Haas: Yeah, you know, I am blessed in my family in that, you know, we're two blended families and we just get along really well. I mean, you know, I've got one niece that's a little bit of a problem, but we've just put the two families together really well for parents marrying later in life and all. So our family's really blessed. I compare it to my husband's family, and it's like he's got one of those families. I got a sister-in-law I don't like. Our family's been blessed in that we all get along. I think my second cousin, I think their son may be transgender. I know his mom called me to talk to me about it. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you've had family and friends and neighbors and patients and, you know. Yeah. We usually ask this, what message would you like to give for the future, for those who come after us, for younger people, younger activists, maybe younger medical providers, what message would you like to give them? Dr. Frances Haas: I think education of what being transgendered is, is incredibly necessary. Confrontation usually does not work. And for those accepting, it's like, as a female, I may like guys with dark hair or I may like guys with baldness. Other people can't stand a bald-headed guy. You can’t tell about sexual attraction. I can remember as a child getting mixed up with my gender when I was probably about 3 or 4. I have very ne hair. Somebody told my mother it'd thicken it up if they cut it short, like a boy. It's like, “Well, I have short hair. I must be a boy.” I named myself Gary. It probably only lasted about a year until my hair started growing out and I realized. They need research on it because there's different places in the brain that turn on and say, “I'm a male.” “I'm a female.” One of them's around age 2 or 3. There's another one in adolescence. On imaging studies, there’s some differences in male and female brains. One thing that I would like to see looked at is a lot of my transgender patients were what I call double-jointed, where they bring the hand back way like this. I don't know if it's that common in the regular population or if it's, you know, a trait of being transgender. I did bring this up with a friend of mine who's going to specialized in that disorder to look into that because it may be genetics. So it's not a choice. It's not a choice. Toby Jenkins: Physical characteristics that are manifest in all sorts of different ways. Certainly, it's just because someone is different or they may not be like everybody else. It's not a reason to vilify them, be violent towards them, or restrict their constitutional rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Anything else? Dr. Frances Haas: I think that's about it. fi 22 �Toby Jenkins: Thank you so much. This has been so helpful. Dr. Frances Fae Haas here on May 5th, 2026, at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library. You've heard her story here on the History Project. Thank you so much for Dr. Haas. And on behalf of our team, we want to thank you for serving the LGBTQ community, transgender community, our brothers and sisters who lived with HIV/AIDS. Thank you. I'm so glad that you saw that light in the window and you felt called to take care of this community. Thank you so much. 23 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Frances Haas Interview Subject The topic of the resource Frances Haas Oral History Interview from May 5, 2026 Description An account of the resource In this in-depth interview, Dr. Frances Haas shares her remarkable journey from a small-town girl to a pioneering physician serving the LGBTQ community, including HIV/AIDS patients and transgender individuals. She discusses her career, medical insights, advocacy, and the evolving landscape of gender-affirming care. Interview conducted by Toby Jenkins, transcribed and edited by Mary Bishop-Baldwin. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Frances Haas, Toby Jenkins, Mary Bishop-Baldwin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 5, 2026 2026 AIDS treatment AIDS/HIV Dr. Frances Fae Haas Frances Haas gender affirming gender affirming care gender-affirming care healthcare HIV research HIV treatment HIV/AIDs Mary Bishop-Baldwin OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Toby Jenkins transcript Transgender https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/fc1bfc45488d1e358856894ddc159604.pdf f5736a974b6870b949c3192ece087cfe PDF Text Text 1/31/25, 2:47 PM garykelleyafs.com/obituaries/print?o_id=9040539 Gary Kelley’s Add’Vantage Funeral Service Dwight Alan Kealiher ( August 27, 1937 - August 15, 2024 ) Dwight Alan Kealiher, 86, certified public accountant and resident of Tulsa, Oklahoma passed away Thursday, August 15, 2024. He was born Friday, August 27, 1937 in Checotah, Oklahoma to Paul Kealiher and Zadee (Wessinger) Kealiher. Memorial service 1:00 p.m. Wednesday, September 4, 2024 at All Souls Unitarian Church, 2952 South Peoria, Tulsa, Oklahoma. https://www.garykelleyafs.com/obituaries/print?o_id=9040539 1/1 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > In Memoriam Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Digital Media: Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document <table> <tbody> <tr> <td> <h2>Gary Kelley’s Add’Vantage Funeral Service</h2> <h3>Dwight Alan Kealiher</h3> ( August 27, 1937 - August 15, 2024 ) <div> Dwight Alan Kealiher, 86, certified public accountant and resident of Tulsa, Oklahoma passed away Thursday, August 15, 2024. He was born Friday, August 27, 1937 in Checotah, Oklahoma to Paul Kealiher and Zadee (Wessinger) Kealiher. Memorial service 1:00 p.m. Wednesday, September 4, 2024 at All Souls Unitarian Church, 2952 South Peoria, Tulsa, Oklahoma. </div> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2024] Dwight Kealiher Obituary Subject The topic of the resource Dwight Alan Kealiher, August 27, 1937 - August 15, 2024 Description An account of the resource One page of an obituary for Dwight Alan Kealiher uploaded by Gary Kelley's Add'Vantage Funeral Service. Dwight lived August 27, 1937 to August 15, 2024. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gary Kelley's Add'Vantage Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived https://www.garykelleyafs.com/obituary/dwight-kealiher Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource September 4, 2024 2024 ALL SOULS UNITARIAN CHURCH Dwight Kealiher Gary Kelley's Add'Vantage Funeral Service Gary Kelley's Funeral Service in memoriam memoriam Obituaries Obituary https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/023cb903251e535d7bce843c1a2e3386.pdf ff7943ad6d305be3e320b8f17ac47d7e PDF Text Text �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] OKEQ > Events Subject The topic of the resource Events by OKEQ or that involved OKEQ. Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 2, Folder 1 - Events Digital Media: Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document Transgender Day of Remembrance 7p.m. Thursday November 20th @ the OkEq Equality Center 4th & Kenosha Downtown Tulsa Remembering the 17 victims of lethal anti-transgender violence since Nov. 2007 Listening, learning, and experiencing what it is like to be transgender Supporting and celebrating our local transgender community Presented by The Gender Advocacy Team of Oklahomans for Equality www.okeq.org Transgender Day of Remembrance November 20, 2008 Greetings from Oklahomans for Equality Toby Jenkins, Board President Greetings from the Gender Advocacy Team Zoey Sloane Music from Jared Tyler A Message from All Souls Unitarian Church Reverend Tamara LeBak Dr. Laura Arrowsmith MtF vs. FtM Music from Sisters in Song Violet Council Oak Zoey A tribute to our fallen Prayer from Nate Black Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2008] Transgender Day of Remembrance Program Subject The topic of the resource 2008 Program for Transgender Day of Remembrance Event Description An account of the resource A 2008 program for a Transgender Day of Remembrance gathering that took place on November 20 at the OkEq Equality Center. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 20, 2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gender Advocacy Team of Oklahomans for Equality 2008 ALL SOULS UNITARIAN CHURCH Board President Toby Jenkins Dennis R. Neill Equality Center Dr. Laura Arrowsmith Equality Center Gender Advocacy Team Gender Advocacy Team of OKEQ Jared Tyler Laura Arrowsmith Nate Black OkEq OKEQ Board President OKEQ Board President Toby Jenkins OkEq Equality Center Oklahomans for Equality Oklahomans for Equality (OKEQ) Reverend Tamara LeBak Sisters in Song Tamara LeBak Toby Jenkins Trans Murder Transgender Transgender Day of Remembrance Zoey Sloane https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/1d1c62b699fd1175c9c6e4402ca2c14d.pdf e81b1f1467ab76f9dcfe20d6fac7ee0b PDF Text Text �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] The Pyramid Project > Strategic Planning & Leadership Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 5, Folder 5 - Meeting Materials Box 5, Folder 8 - Strategic Planning & Leadership Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [ND] Pyramid Project Presentation Subject The topic of the resource Pyramid Project Capital Campaign Presentation Description An account of the resource A 6 page presentation provided by OutGiving, a Gill Foundation project. Addresses how to organize and campaign a capital project. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gill Foundation campaign fundraisers fundraising Gill Foundation outgiving OutGiving Gill Foundation presentation Pyramid Project Pyramid Project campaign Pyramid Project Capital Campaign Pyramid Project fundraising Pyramid Project planning TOHR TOHR Pyramid Project Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/6a3f8ba78d49f6837bbeebf1b66411e2.jpg 12697e49cabff1cd69f26756d299d6ab https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/68cdcbe698d972e5b50eb3bcf1e1fb7f.jpg 539979d5e87e11e0bbb10626b7af56e6 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Newspaper article Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2019] Stonewall activism made its way to Tulsa Subject The topic of the resource Pride 2019 Description An account of the resource Newspaper article covering the history of Tulsa’s LGBT community, stonewall, and the evolution of Pride in Tulsa. Toby Jenkins interviewed about OKEQ’s history. Discusses Tulsa Police Department’s harassment of LGBT folk in the 70’s. Activist John M. Faires interviewed. Tulsa Tribune articles quoted disparaging homosexuals. Discusses local businesses attitudes toward homosexuality, most not wanting to hire LGBT people but most willing to have them as customers. Housing discrimination also discussed. Tom Neal discusses his history of advocacy. Article mentions creating of H.O.P.E. Neal comments on the effect of Stonewall on Tulsa 50 years after the fact, says he is shocked by current political climate. Includes AP photo of gay activists and allies protesting a speech by Anita Bryant outside the Oklahoma State Capitol on Feb. 21, 1978. Also has Tulsa World file photo of woman holding pride flag. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ginnie Graham Tulsa World Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Tulsa World Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Tulsa World Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 30, 2019 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ginnie Graham Tulsa World Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Newspaper article 7x15' 10x7' Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Newspaper article Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Tulsa World, June 30, 2019 pp. G1, G3 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Tulsa Pride 2019, Stonewall, Toby Jenkins, Anita Bryant, John M. Faires, Gay Community Caucus, Tulsa Community Relations Committee, homophobia, Oklahomans for Human Rights, Tom Neal, Susan Savage, Tulsa Government, Tulsa World, Tulsa Tribune, H.O.P.E., HIV, AIDS, workplace protections, Oklahomans for Equality Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Glenna Cooper Interview Description An account of the resource Transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on January 31, 2005. Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. In the inteview, Glenna discusses the challenges facing the deaf community and their interactions with the LGBTQ+ community. No tape, done on computer. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 31, 2005 Subject The topic of the resource Glenna Cooper Oral History Project Interview from January 31, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Glenna Cooper, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2005 available at Center deaf community Glenna Cooper interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript transcript https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/80a666c71fa7d00ebe6c35e6c3cd5029.mp4 a529e7f8f4fac75bb63c5db6e403adfb https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/1fb8011913addc5505031ad0b07566bc.pdf a0af57e73d112460472ed6b6c2955e74 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Gordon George Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: February 3, 2026 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video February 8, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Gordon George Keywords Gordon George, LGBTQ history, Tulsa, community, coming out, AIDS crisis, activism, volunteer work, identity, equality Takeaways ● Gordon George shares his early life in Oswego, Kansas. ● He discusses the challenges of fitting in during school. ● Moving to Tulsa was a pivotal moment for Gordon's identity. ● He recalls his first experiences in the gay community. ● Gordon's involvement in LGBTQ activism began in the 80s. ● He faced challenges during the AIDS crisis and supported affected friends. ● Coming out to his family was a significant turning point. ● Gordon reflects on the changes in the LGBTQ community over the years. ● He emphasizes the importance of volunteering and community support. ● Gordon encourages future generations to appreciate and protect their rights. 2 �Summary In this conversation, Gordon George shares his life story, detailing his experiences growing up in Kansas, moving to Tulsa, and discovering his identity as a gay man. He reflects on the challenges he faced in school, his involvement in the LGBTQ community, and the impact of the AIDS crisis. Gordon discusses his journey of coming out to his family, the importance of volunteering, and the progress of LGBTQ rights over the years. He emphasizes the need for continued activism and support for future generations. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Early Life 03:04 School Experiences and Identity 05:55 Moving to Tulsa and Discovering Community 09:05 Exploring Sexuality and Relationships 11:59 Involvement in the LGBTQ Community 14:59 Challenges and Triumphs in the 80s 18:08 Family Dynamics and Coming Out 20:59 AIDS Crisis and Community Support 24:03 Volunteering and Activism 27:05 Reflections on Change and Progress 30:00 Current Involvement and Future Outlook Gordon George Oral History Interview February 3, 2026 Toby Jenkins: This is February the 3rd on Tuesday in 2026, and we're here in the Nancy and Joe Rainbow Library at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. And today, we are interviewing Gordon George. And Gordon, can you tell us your name and your date of birth? Gordon George: Gordon George, 10-5-53. Toby Jenkins: Okay, very good. And where were you born? Gordon George: Oswego, Kansas. Toby Jenkins: Oswego, Kansas. And about where is that located? Gordon George: Southeast Kansas. Toby Jenkins: Southeast Kansas, so not far from the Oklahoma line? Gordon George: Right. 3 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And is that a little town, big town? Gordon George: Little. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: They don't even have a hospital anymore. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Do they still have a full high school and all of that? Gordon George: As far as I know, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. So you were born there and is that where your parents are from? Gordon George: They're from Southeast Kansas, yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And what was your dad's name and what is your mom's name? Gordon George: Freddy was my dad. My mother was Stella. Toby Jenkins: Stella? And are they still living? Gordon George: My dad's still kicking, 92. Toby Jenkins: 92 years old. Gordon George: And mother's been gone 23 years. Toby Jenkins: Okay. What was their careers? What did they do forGordon George: My dad was a teamster. Toby Jenkins: Oh. Gordon George: And mother was a homemaker and then she went into tax preparation. Did that for many years. Toby Jenkins: And how many siblings? Do you have siblings? Gordon George: I have one brother and a sister. I was the middle child. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Are they both still with us? Gordon George: No. My brother died twelve years ago, I think. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And my sister's still with us. She lives near Kansas City. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Were you ever married? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: So you don't have any children that you know of? 4 �Gordon George: No. I know there's no children. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Very good. All right. So your father's still living. Where did you go to school? Gordon George: Independence, Kansas. Toby Jenkins: And so did your family move to Independence, Kansas, or? Gordon George: Yes. We moved to Coffeyville when I was very young. And we moved to Independence when I was in the third grade. Toby Jenkins: And what was Independence like? Gordon George: Horrible. Toby Jenkins: The school you mean or just the city? Gordon George: It was a clicky town. Very clickish. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And I have no desire to go back other than to see my dad. Toby Jenkins: So no warm feelings, or? Gordon George: Oh, no, no, no. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And you moved there in the third grade, was it difficult? New kid in that school. Did you not feel welcome, or? Gordon George: Oh, in grade school, it wasn't so bad. It's junior high and high school is when it got rough. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: Because I didn't feel I fit in. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Because you weren't from Independence and you all had moved there or because of your religion or your ethnicity or because youGordon George: We lived south of Main Street. We didn't live on the good side of town. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And people looked at that, where you live. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: So I just- it's still that way. That town's still that way. Toby Jenkins: Still very clickish and segregated according to class. Gordon George: Yes. 5 �Toby Jenkins: And according to a person's- how much money they make. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Because people's descriptions of small towns are that they're wonderful and welcoming and everybody's so close and looks after each other. But that wasn't your experience. Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Where did you go to high school? Gordon George: Independence. Toby Jenkins: And what year did you graduate? Gordon George: '71. Toby Jenkins: 1971. Okay. And did you go on to technical school? Were you in the military? Gordon George: I attended junior college. I didn't graduate. And I moved to Oklahoma in '79. Toby Jenkins: '79? Now, where did you go to junior college? Gordon George: Independence. Toby Jenkins: Independence. Oh, there's a junior school and college there? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And then I came- when I moved here, I went to Tulsa Junior College here for a couple courses. I did some- I got my real estate license with Tulsa Tech here in Tulsa, so. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been in '79 when you moved to Tulsa? Gordon George: Yes, I think so. Toby Jenkins: So how did you decide to move to Tulsa? Gordon George: To get out of that. Toby Jenkins: To get out of Independence? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Right. So you went to high school there. I mean did you have a job there in Independence for a while? Gordon George: I worked for Southwestern Bell. 6 �Toby Jenkins: Okay. Is that what brought you to Tulsa? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: You were able to transfer? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay, perfect. And what was that like in the 1970s? Working with- what did you do with Southwest Bell? Gordon George: I was actually- when I started, I started as a cord board operator. The Lily Tomlin. Toby Jenkins: Really? Gordon George: Yeah. Actually doing the cords into the switchboard. Toby Jenkins: So if I had called there in the 70s, you would have answered and you would have transferred my call or you would have made a long distance call or did you do information? What was yourGordon George: All of it. Toby Jenkins: All of it. Gordon George: Okay. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And I came to Oklahoma and went into information from there and then went into sales at the phone store. Toby Jenkins: How neat. Mall Bell. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So that's what brought you to Tulsa. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Now, since you were never married, what pronoun do you use? How do you identify your gender? Gordon George: I'm a gay male. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you identify as a gay man. Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember- we've talked about how you weren't happy in Independence and that you felt some isolation. Did you have an awareness that you were gay or that you had same-sex attraction? 7 �Gordon George: Oh yeah. Starting back in junior high school. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you began to have those feelings and you knew what that was. Okay. And did you have resources? I mean did you go to the library and look in a book or did you just kind of knew what that meant? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever feel any kind of awareness that there were other people in your school who were like you? Gordon George: One. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Did you ever feel like some of your unhappiness in junior high and high school had to do with- did anybody bully you or make you feel like you were different? Gordon George: Oh, I was bullied, yes. Particularly one gentleman or one kid. I don't know if- why he targeted me. But paybacks are hell. He died young. Toby Jenkins: Oh, mercy. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So you don't really, you don't feel like you were bullied in high school because they perceived you were different, or? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you said that you were in junior high when you had these feelings. When you moved to Tulsa with Southwestern Bell, I still- I just think that's fascinating that you were- you used the Lily Tomlin one ringy dingy to the switchboard operator. Which- I'm just out of curiosity, I don't know that I ever called information and ever got a male voice. Did you ever hear anybody be surprised that it was a male sounding voice that answered the line or? Gordon George: Not so much because we had a female that sounded like a guy. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So there was two of us. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And of course my voice was a little high. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So. 8 �Toby Jenkins: Fascinating. So you had came to Tulsa. You were an adult, young adult. Did you realize you were gay? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: And were ready to act upon it and? Gordon George: Yeah, first time in a gay bar when I came to Oklahoma. Toby Jenkins: And do you remember what year that would have been? Gordon George: 80. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And do you remember what the bar was, the club? Gordon George: Tim's Playroom. Toby Jenkins: Tim's Playroom. Okay. And how did you find out about Tim's Playroom? Gordon George: A co-worker invited me to go. Toby Jenkins: So you had a gay co-worker? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And he invited me to go with him, and we went to the bar. First time I was in a bar. Toby Jenkins: And what was your thoughts that first experience of being in a space where there were other people like you? And it was that nobody could look into it. The windows were covered overGordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: - and you could beGordon George: And it was a drag show that day, too. Toby Jenkins: Oh, was it? That's the first time you'd ever? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Yeah? Do you remember your feelings that day, or? Gordon George: I was nervous as hell. Toby Jenkins: Really? Gordon George: Yeah. 'Cause I didn't know what to expect. I just really didn't know what going to a gay bar was gonna entail. I had no idea, so. Toby Jenkins: Now, had you had an intimate relationship prior to going to the gay bar? I mean, had you had an intimate9 �Gordon George: ... back in junior high. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: Same one, over and over. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So that was when you explored your sexuality? Gordon George: He brought me out, yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so you knew from junior high on that you were attracted to your same sex? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: So when you moved to Tulsa, you had this co-worker. Did you begin to explore other relationships with gay men? Gordon George: Yes, but not with my co-worker. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you went to Tim's playroom. Did that become kind of something you did on a regular basis? Went to gay bars andGordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Most weekends. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Because at work, you couldn't be out, right? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: I mean, that was a ... . Gordon George: Well, it wasn't so much. I think people perceived that if you worked as an operator, that maybe you were gay, as a perception. But I wasn't out. I wasn't open about it. Toby Jenkins: What was the community like, that you found in the clubs and the bars? Gordon George: More accepting than I thought it would be. Toby Jenkins: So you're just a boy from KansasGordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: - Land in the big city. And what was Tulsa like in those days? Gordon George: Other than the bars, I didn't do much, 'cause of the hours that I worked with Bill. 'Cause there's times that I worked nights and late evenings. Go in at six o'clock and get off at midnight. Or go in at 06:00 and stay till 02:00, it just depends. 10 �Gordon George: So it kinda- and there was more one-on-one in those days with your customers online, or on the phone than there is today. Because they had to physically ask for addresses and stuff like that if we could even give it out. And more interaction with the publicToby Jenkins: Oh, yeah. Gordon George: - Than there is today. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, you called information for everything. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: There were even songs about information. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you had went to Tim's playroom, and that's how you first connected with the gay community in Tulsa? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. It's the early 80s, late 70s in Tulsa. Did you go to any theater programs, any sports events? And just a part of the culture in Tulsa thatGordon George: Yeah. We'd do public events, like when they had ice skating at the downtown. We'd go to the Nutcracker during the holidays on ice. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Gordon George: Go do that kinda thing and let it out. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Tulsa had a downtown mall in those daysGordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: - Built around, I think it's called the Galleria, wasn't it? Dennis Neill: Forum. Toby Jenkins: Forum, called the Forum. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Galleria was in Dallas. So you would do things like that, social events. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Now, when you went to this club, did you meet some other guys, and they kinda became your posse, or your clique of friends, or? Gordon George: No, it was more introduction through the co-worker. Because he had been out for many years. 11 �Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And he introduced me to some of his friends. We'd become a circle of friends that would do things, mainly go to the bars. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Do you remember some of the other clubs that you might've went to? You keep saying the bars. Gordon George: Zippers. Toby Jenkins: Went to Zippers, okay. And what was Zippers? Gordon George: It was a high-energy bar. Toby Jenkins: Like a disco? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And of course, The Bamboo. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Yeah, whichGordon George: That was a trash bar. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, but it had been there forever. Yeah, it's one of the oldest. And it was in the north part of Tulsa. The Zippers was Midtown, like 31st and Yale. Gordon George: Yale. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So were there any- through the clubs, were you aware of any things like gay softball leagues, gay churches? Gordon George: Gay churches. I attended Metropolitan Community for a while. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And where was it located? Gordon George: North Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So I know that they also had a congregation in Jenks at one time, but you went to the north Tulsa location on Queen. It was on Queen. Gordon George: I couldn't tell you. Toby Jenkins: And- so you were connected to that. What about any of the gay softball programs, or what about pride picnics? Gordon George: I had- I- when they had it at Mohawk Park, I drove through it once. I thought, no, I can't do this. Toby Jenkins: And why was that? Gordon George: The crowd, and I just didn't feel comfortable. 12 �Toby Jenkins: Was it because of visibility, or just the large crowd? Gordon George: More the large crowd. Toby Jenkins: Okay, yeah. So that was the- that would've been the early 80s, and you were still with Southwest Bell. Were you staying in contact with your family? I mean, it's pretty common for gay men, lesbian women to move from small towns to bigger cities, where there can be some distance between their families in those days because they didn't wanna embarrass their families, or they wanted their life- their adult life to be private. Were you still in contact with your parents and independents? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: It didn't change. I mean, I didn't come out to my family until '85, '86. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and what was that like? Gordon George: It was in a fit of rage. Toby Jenkins: Okay, tell us a little bit about that. Gordon George: I had been to- I was living in Oklahoma City at the time. I went home for Christmas and my brother was there, and we didn't get along, and my mother kept harping at me, why don't you get along with your brother? Why don't you get along with your brother? You need to do this, do that. Gordon George: And that's the first time I told my mother to shut up. I'd had enough. Packed my bags and left. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So- and that's when- later that spring is when I came out to my family. Toby Jenkins: Okay, the whole family, or just your parents, or your mom, or? Gordon George: My mom and sister. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and how did they handle that? Gordon George: Better than I thought. Mother and I became good friends after that. When I moved to Oklahoma City and then moved back to Tulsa, she would go to the bars with me, and yeah, we would- and there were times we would- just the two of us would go out and have drinks. Sit and talk for hours. 'Cause she lived with me for a while too. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So did she enjoy hanging around with your friends and going to theGordon George: Oh yeah, she was good. She was okay with it, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. 13 �Gordon George: When I was also involved in the Tulsa AIDS Task Force. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so that's what's going on. Gordon George: And we would do barbecues and stuff. We had a big barbecue out at Inola and they supplied the beef for it. They had a calf slaughtered andToby Jenkins: Oh, a family in Inola did it, or? Gordon George: No, my family. Toby Jenkins: Oh, your parents? Oh wonderful. Gordon George: They provided the beef. Toby Jenkins: And so it was a fundraiser for? Gordon George: Tulsa AIDS Task Force. Toby Jenkins: Okay. That's the first time I've heard that name. Dennis Neill: That was a group that the United Way and Community Service Council had pulled together. All the conveners that met, and then eventually it's been off to Tulsa Cares. Does that sound right? Gordon George: I couldn't tell you. Toby Jenkins: But it's called the Tulsa AIDS Task Force? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. We were the fundraisers for them. Toby Jenkins: For the programs for people living with HIV AIDS? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and that would've been mid-80s? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And by then, apparently, your family was supporting you, your parents, especially if they were going to gay clubs with you and donating beef for a cookout. Do you remember the first time you heard about AIDS? Gordon George: I had seen it on the news, but I didn't know. I had a friend that asked me to get involved with the task force to help with the fundraising. Toby Jenkins: Did you know people in those early days, who had AIDS and were dying? Or do you rememberGordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: With the church, I was on the RAIN team. 14 �Toby Jenkins: At Metropolitan Community Church, they're a RAIN team? And what did a RAIN team do? Gordon George: We went to support families and patients with HIV. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And I've seen too many die, so I had to quit doing it. It was too rough. Toby Jenkins: When you say too many died, like there were five or six people that died, or was there dozens, or what was it like forGordon George: That I was involved with, it was probably four or five. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And then, I had a personal friend that became ill. Toby Jenkins: And so what was that like in those days? You found out your friends had AIDS. What were your thoughts? Tell us what that was like in those days. Gordon George: It was bad. It was tough, especially the friend that I- I was working fulltime. He needed help. And I quit my job. Spent the last couple months of his life helping him. So and that was really bad, really tough. Toby Jenkins: And just took care of him? Gordon George: He went to- well, part of the fundraising that I had helped with, we give, if I remember right, about $10,000 to- I can't think of the name of it, Catholic Charities. They're home forToby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And he's actuallyToby Jenkins: St. Joseph's ... . Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: That was a hospice care center. Gordon George: Right. And that's where he was at, when he died. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So- and I was- it made me feel good that I would help raise the money to help support their organization, and they helped him. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So yeah, it was tough. And he was saying that, why he was- talking about why he was on earth. And I said, "Part of it was because you could be my friend." And that was tough. And I was with him when he took his last breath. So his mother and I were with him. 15 �Toby Jenkins: So in those days, people were finding- they would find out they were ill. I mean, would they go to the doctor because they were feeling bad, or because they were being cautious? Gordon George: They'd go find out that they were ill. And when you found out you had HIV AIDS, there wasn't any kind of treatment plan that was keeping you alive longer in those early days. So people were gone pretty quick. Toby Jenkins: Or did people live with it for a while? Do you remember? Gordon George: Both. Toby Jenkins: Both? So some people lasted longer thanGordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And what was the general attitude of the community in those days, like in the gay bars, did people act different with their behavior? Did they shun or isolate people once they found out they were sick, or were people being cautious or being careful not to spread it? Gordon George: They weren't as careful as they should've beenToby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: - back then. 'Cause it really hadn't hit home so much here in Oklahoma like it was on major metropolitan areas. So- but once it really got a hold here, people were thinking, oh, yeah, we need to be more careful and actually more responsive as far as fundraising, so…I met a lot of people during the fundraising, people that cared. Toby Jenkins: People outside the gay community, or justGordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: The Perigos were one of them [Jerry and Peggy Perigo]. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Yeah. Perigo family? Gordon George: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Who [Jerry Perigo] was the judge here in town. So this would have all been during the 80s, right? Gordon George: Right. 16 �Toby Jenkins: So you were involved with the Tulsa AIDS Task Force, and a part of RAIN, which was a care team associated with your church. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: That provided care for people living with HIV AIDS. When did you begin to- did you start- were you still working at Southwest Bell? You said you quit your job to take care of your friend. Gordon George: Oh, no. I had left Southwestern Bell before that. I left Southwestern Bell in '85. Toby Jenkins: Okay. When did you- I know you're doing the work with the AIDS Task Force, what about relationships? Did you have a partner during those days? Did you haveGordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you just kinda hung out with the group? Gordon George: Right. Yeah. I didn't- yeah. It was not a pleasant time after I left Bell, and 'cause I did an odd job kinda things and wound up declaring bankruptcy and had to start all over. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So in the fundraising part, did you ever get involved with the quilts, the NAMES project, the AIDS quilts? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. But you were aware thatGordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Yeah. I had seen it, but I wasn't involved in any of the organization part of it. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever participate in the annual follies that were big fundraisers for the HIV AIDS causes? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Big performance shows. Okay. When did you begin to get involved with TOHR? Did I ask if you ever went to any of the pride picnics, or the pride parades? Did you ever get involved with any of that? Gordon George: No. I didn't get involved until, what was it, '91, '92, maybe. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And it was when I was attending your church organization. That's when I got involved. 17 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah, that would've been later. That would have been about 1999 something. Gordon George: Was it that late? Toby Jenkins: Yeah. AndGordon George: Oh, okay. '99. Toby Jenkins: You're talking aboutGordon George: Yeah, '99. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, you're talking about the Ekklesia group? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Which is a group for recovering evangelicals and who- wasn't really a church. It was kind of a Christian support group. And it would meet at the center, the TOHR center, which was in Highland Park. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: So that's where you've began to get involved and started volunteering with the organization. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Do you… I know that at one year, you received 'Volunteer of the year' from TOHR- probably Oklahomans for Equality by then. And why were you given that award? Do you remember? Gordon George: For the help of working here on the building. Toby Jenkins: Yep. Gordon George: And doing…I got even the very first Thanksgiving dinner we had here I helped with. I wasn't in charge of it at that time, but I helped with it. So- and Kristi Freeman I think was ... Toby Jenkins: Kristi Freeman? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Who was on the board. Gordon George: Yeah, I helped her and then one year when Nancy McDonald helped with it andToby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And then after that's when I actually started conducting it all. 18 �Toby Jenkins: So I know that you were very involved with the organization when they bought the building. And you're talking about, for a year we spent renovating. And Christy Frisbee, Sue Welch and some of those folks led some of the- we did it ourselves. Our gay boys were designers and our girls were good with power tools. So we were a perfect match and we did it ourselves, didn't we? You have to. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And so you spent some time down hereGordon George: Hanging sheet rock and that kinda stuff, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, ripping up carpet and pushing up old tile. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And we were proud to have it, weren't we? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So you had been in Tulsa for a while. So you'd kind of saw an evolution where we had had smaller centers, that were kinda tucked into hidden places. All of a sudden we were right downtown. Yeah. I know that you also were very involved every time we had the big dances and the big events. Toby Jenkins: You always were in charge of the kitchen and the refreshments and for the fall-a-law ball. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And the Wild Hearts ball and volunteered at the Equality Gala. So you were very helpful and a very good organizer, especially when it came to setting things up and food service. So you talked about- you got involved with the Thanksgiving dinner. Can you kinda remember some details why we did that, why we had it? Gordon George: It was for people that didn't have families to go to. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and why would they not have had families to go to? Gordon George: A lot of their families disowned them. Toby Jenkins: Right. Gordon George: And I was fortunate enough, my family didn't disown me. Toby Jenkins: Right. And it was on- what day did we do it? Gordon George: Usually Thanksgiving Day. Toby Jenkins: And did you have to cook all the food or where did the food come from? Gordon George: A lot of the food was donated, but there was a couple times that I cooked the turkeys. 19 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Right. Gordon George: And I was- back on those days I thought I wouldn't do it today. Toby Jenkins: And so now, for anybody who's familiar with the Equality Center today, we have a commercial kitchen. But in those days ... Gordon George: Oh, no. Toby Jenkins: - we had the kitchen that we put together ourselves. Gordon George: Tiny hole-in-the-wall kitchen. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And you'd have to serve hundreds of people ... . Okay. Gordon George: I think the most we served was 225. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And so we talked about this. So we worked with the faith communities that were inclusive and welcoming. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And they kinda sponsored and would provide all the food. So it was like a massive potluck dinner and you had to coordinate all that. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And that was all served on Thanksgiving Day. But the food started coming in when? Gordon George: The day before, or ... Toby Jenkins: A couple of days. Yeah. Gordon George: Depends on the organization. Toby Jenkins: And you all would be back there preparing turkeys and hams and ... Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So- and we not only served people on Thanksgiving Day, we provided to-go meals for people who ... Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: You could call down here and we'd deliver those to you. About how many faith communities were involved, do you remember? Gordon George: Oh, eight, ten maybe. Toby Jenkins: Yeah? Gordon George: Somewhere around there. I don't remember for sure. 20 �Toby Jenkins: Do you remember the year of Muslims for Mercy or the- they were compassionate Muslims. They provided the turkey and it was seasoned with the Middle Eastern flavor. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Okay, so ... Gordon George: That's when I quit cooking turkeys after that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. But- so we did that, and it was called 'Come Home for the Holidays'. And we'd have a huge turnout. Transgender people who were not allowed to go home and present to their family as they identified. Gay couples who- they might be able to go home but they couldn't bring their boyfriend or their girlfriend home. And then it got to where entire families just came out to show support. And about how many people would help you work on that event. Gordon George: Oh, 15 maybe or 20, depends. Toby Jenkins: And then on Thanksgiving morning, how many people to get it all ready to go? Gordon George: Usually maybe 8 to 10. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Including my family. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, now tell us about how you got your family, talked into helping with this. Gordon George: I don't remember other than, I was involved with it and I wasn't going to their place. And at that point, my mother had died. So it was- can't go home. Home was changed. So we- I volunteered to keep- from thinking about Thanksgiving at home is no longerToby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And so they would come here. My dad and my sister and brother-inlaw and my nieces and nephews andToby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: They would all come. At one point, all came involved. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, your brother and his wife. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And their children, and yeah. Gordon George: Yeah. My brother, when he was alive, he was here when he could. And they lived in Collinsville. So it wasn't- it was easier for them to come and help. 21 �Toby Jenkins: But your sister was coming from where? Gordon George: Near Kansas City. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And it became a thing for over a decade. Gordon George: Yeah. Until COVID. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: COVID put an end to it. Toby Jenkins: So I know you volunteered with the Equality Gala. Did you volunteer at Pride too? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. I helped in the treasury departments. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Counted tickets and counted tickets. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. And that you were always available to help for just so many things that we were doing. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: I know today you're pretty involved in the Oklahomans for Equality's program for senior adults. Do you remember when you began to get involved with that? Originally, I think we called it SAGE butGordon George: I don't remember. It was when we were a smaller group and it was before the remodeling of the event center and the kitchen. It was before that that I was involved with SAGE when we met in the great hall. Toby Jenkins: So about 13, 14 years ago. Gordon George: I don't know. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: Too many years ago to think about. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And what was your reason for being involved with that? Gordon George: It was an outreach for being around gay people that were my age. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And much like the work you did with RAIN team and AIDS over the years, we've lost a lot of people who were involved in that program. Many, many, many people. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Tell us some of the things that SAGE would do. Like, did we go see people, check on people? 22 �Gordon George: I wasn't involved in a lot of that. I would just come during the day 'cause of the hours that I worked in the company that I was working for. I worked a lot of nights. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: So I didn't get to attend SAGE as much as I do now. Toby Jenkins: So I know- I wanna bring this up. I know you worked for companies and you understood they had corporate support for non-profits and you were able to get them to support- work here at the Equality Center. Gordon George: Right, they made a donation to us. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Was it Thanksgiving they would sponsor or was it the SAGE program ... Gordon George: No, it was ... - now that you mention it, I don't remember. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: I know they- it was during- it was closer to the holidays, yeah, so. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yep. So you understood the value of getting corporate support. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And they were willing to do it, weren't they, that company? Gordon George: Right. And I think that was- it happened a lot, when they had to do some diversity training because of the way I was treated at work. Toby Jenkins: Right. Gordon George: Particularly one, there are two people out there that were hateful. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And so, they had diversity training and I think that was what brought it out, that they give us money. Or even some of the people who were not happy, that they give the money to us, here. But they had to get over it. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So that's interesting because presently in 2026, companies, anybody who does any kind of diversity, inclusion or equity or equality efforts, DEI as we call it, that's supposed, now companies are afraid to do that. And of course the administration in the White House has labeled that as woke and bad, and universities, and public institutions, and publicly funded institutions. And we've seen corporations step back from that for fear of retribution. But you knew why diversity training was important personally, because you had experienced discrimination in the workplace? Gordon George: Right, right. Toby Jenkins: And then your company23 �Gordon George: Put a stop to it. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And said, we need to do more to make sure all of our LGBT employees feel valued. Gordon George: Yeah. And I wasn't the only one at that point. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: There was others that came out. And it wasn't just the level that I was at as far as an employee, there was even higher up. I mean one of the chemists came out. And so, it wasn't just a lowly production worker, so. And there were several. Toby Jenkins: Now just out of curiosity, you've told us your age. You had saw things change, hadn't you, in Oklahoma from when you first got to Tulsa? I know we've talked a lot about your time in Tulsa, so if I've corrected this, you've been here about 45 years in the Tulsa area. I think maybe there were some times you moved away and came back, is-you saw a lot of changes, especially for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and all the different letters of the acronym that we use for the gay community. There's been a lot of changes. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Right. Do you feel like, from the early days, where your life was pretty private work and gay bars were the dark, private places where we hid away from the general community, we couldn't walk down the street holding hands, we did have pride parades. Do you feel like Tulsa changed and became better? Gordon George: Yes, it improved. It was slow, but it kept improving to the point where it was more comfortable to be out, and OkEq was a big part of that for me to be comfortable on being out. The community was getting more involved. The city itself was becoming more involved. Toby Jenkins: The proclamations of Gay Day in the city and the mayor's backing on some things. Like naming the street Pride Street. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: So- and even to the point, where they named one of the streets of a deceased police officer that was a lesbian. Toby Jenkins: Jennifer Mansell. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Absolutely. Who was on the Tulsa Police Department and had named a street. That was an incredible day. I remember that. That was our first openly gay person to be her and her wife, who was a Wagner County treasurer, so… 24 �Gordon George: Yeah. And so it really improved a lot in those years until who got in the White House and things. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And who in the White House? Gordon George: Trump. Toby Jenkins: Right. Gordon George: Donald J. Trump. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Yeah. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So it's safe to say that whoever we put in the White House, that impacts all of us. Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: It changes our world. Gordon George: Especially when they're negative. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So you saw things improve, and do you think it was because of the visibility? I know Oklahomans for Equality was doing lots of advocacy work, but do you feel like some of it might have been because of the visibility of LGBTQ people, then being more visible and open and out at work and faith communities changing their positions? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: I mean, when you came to Tulsa, MCC was the only church that had an official mission and dedicated to the LGBT community. There were congregations like 'All Souls' and some other churches that may have been supportive of the community, but even they had not come out with an official policy. You saw that all change where faith communities helped support the Thanksgiving meals and also were a part of the pride parades and were sponsors of the Equality Gala, so. Gordon George: And it continued to grow. The pride parades just kept growing and growing, and more of the community of Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Corporations and companies proud to be a part of it. Yeah. So I haven't asked this to anybody else, and I just thought I was gonna- I'm gonna ask this to somebody who's kinda saw things change. Why do you think we have so few gay bars? Because when you first came to Tulsa, there were lots of gay bars. Gordon George: There was. Toby Jenkins: And we now just have just a few left. I think at the time of this interview, I only know of two, Majestic and Eagle, and then I guess Yellow Brick Road probably identifies this. But why do you think things have changed there? 25 �Gordon George: I don't know. I wonder that myself. Why it's- especially as an older adult there's not a whole lot of places that I would go that I would feel comfortable, as a gay bar. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: The Eagle, but I'm not so much into leather and- I'm not so much into going to the bars now, anyway. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: So. Toby Jenkins: Do you think social media and used to, if you wanted a date, you had to go find 'em, right? Gordon George: Uh-huh. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And the places you found them was at the clubs. And you might meet people at work, but you were afraid to tell somebody at work for fear you're barking up the wrong tree. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Do you feel like the social media, the dating websites, the mobile apps, the hookup apps. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Do you feel like that has changed the way we connect and meet people? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Definitely. Yeah, it was easier to get online and you still had to wonder, okay, is it safe to meet this person or not? Are they gonna beat the hell out of me when I get there? That kinda thing. But social media made a big difference. I don't know if it's so much that- well, I think it's still even more now why the attendance to gay bars is down. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: It's because of social media, people doing- hooking up online. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you have lived long enough to see things change. You've seen things improve. But you've also saw us having to refight the fightGordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: - for stuff that we fought for. Gordon George: That's ongoing now. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. 26 �Gordon George: All the time, trying to protect the privileges and the rights that we got that they keep trying to roll back. Toby Jenkins: Right. Gordon George: And it's an ongoing battle. Toby Jenkins: Now, as you live your life, you're retired. And I know that you do a lot of volunteer work. So let's talk a little bit about that. And while we talk about that, I wanna know what your experience is. So I notice, let's start with you're branded today. And what is that? Gordon George: It's the ambassador program at the airport. Toby Jenkins: Tulsa International Airport. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: And they are a great organization to volunteer for. And they take care of us quite well. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: They feed us multiple times a year. They're feeding us next month. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: The luncheon. Toby Jenkins: So they do a lot of volunteer appreciation? Gordon George: Oh, yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And so today, that we're doing, this is a Tuesday. Did you volunteer today at the airport? Gordon George: Yes, 06:00 AM. Toby Jenkins: Had to be there at 06:00 AM? Gordon George: To 09:00, three hour shifts. Toby Jenkins: And so what do you do? Park planes? Do you scrub planes? What do you do? Gordon George: Well, basically, we just direct traffic for passengers. Toby Jenkins: Oh, okay. Gordon George: Where's the nearest restroom? How do I get through TSA? Where do I take my luggage? That kinda thing. 27 �Toby Jenkins: So you're at an information booth, or? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay, alright. Gordon George: Or, as I'm what they call a roamer, which allows me to go in. I can go out on either concourse, A and B, and assist people out there, or assist people getting through TSA. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And what is that experience like? Do you enjoy it? Gordon George: I love it. Toby Jenkins: Do you? Gordon George: It's a great place to people watch. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: A lot of eye candy. Toby Jenkins: A lot of hot, attractive men, okay. Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Well, now we know why you do it. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So you do that how many times a week? Gordon George: I do twice a week, every other week. And then, sometimes on the fifth week of the month, I'll do extra. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, like holiday time, during holiday? Gordon George: I have done holiday extra. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. Do they know you're gay? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And do they treat you differently? Or do theyGordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: So do any of you other volunteers say, "Hey, Gordon, do you see that attractive man? Look at that." Gordon George: Oh, the straight women that we talk about. 28 �Toby Jenkins: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so. Everybody's looking, right? Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. How wonderful. And I wanna thank you, on behalf of our community, for being there at the airport. I know that can't be real easy. Okay, so you do that. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you volunteer at the Tulsa International Airport in the ambassador program. What else do you volunteer with? Gordon George: I help distribute Meals on Wheels. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: I work in the distribution center to help pack the packages that drivers take. I help with that. And then, I also do driving. Toby Jenkins: So you have to drive? Gordon George: The delivery, yes. Toby Jenkins: Yes. And do you enjoy that? Gordon George: That's one day a week. Most of the time. Toby Jenkins: Yeah? And you have to do that regardless of the weather, right? Gordon George: No, they shut us down. The recent weather that we've had? Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: They shut us down. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, but in the middle of a hot summerGordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: - or pouring down rain, you'll still have to do it. Gordon George: Right, right. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And would you encourage people to be a part of that program? Do they need more volunteers? Gordon George: They always need volunteers. Toby Jenkins: Okay. What else do you volunteer with? Gordon George: I volunteer with the SAGE group here. Of course, I do that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, with the seniors program here. Gordon George: Yeah. And I usher at the PAC in Broken Arrow. 29 �Toby Jenkins: And that's a volunteer position? Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: And what do you do there? Gordon George: Just as an usher. Toby Jenkins: Okay, andGordon George: Directing people to their seats. Toby Jenkins: - you don't get paid? You're just doing it? Gordon George: No. Toby Jenkins: Now, what would be the perks of that? Gordon George: You get to see the shows. Toby Jenkins: So where else is it you volunteer at? We were talking about the Broken Arrow PAC. Gordon George: Oh, so…I just lost my thought. Toby Jenkins: Well, let's talk a little bit about that cause I think we got cut off a little. So you're a volunteer over there. What are the perks about volunteering as an usher at the Broken Arrow Performing Arts Center? Gordon George: Well, I got to see Lily Tomlin. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And recently was Sandy Patty. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: And other productions. Toby Jenkins: Have you ever been there when KristenChenoweth was there? Gordon George: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. Our only- our little hero we had. Gordon George: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So that's- would you encourage people to volunteer as ushers at the Performing Arts Center? Gordon George: Right, and they take very little of your time. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: I mean it's not even once a month. 30 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Gordon George: 'Cause they have quite a few volunteers, 'cause they will take volunteers any time. Toby Jenkins: Okay. You volunteer still here at the Equality Center. Anything else you volunteer at? Gordon George: Life Senior Services. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and what do you do with them? Gordon George: I mainly just help at their major fundraisers. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Gordon George: I help when they do those. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And tell us a little bit, what is Life Senior Services? Gordon George: It supports adult seniors, and they do so much in the community. They provide housing, they provide daycare for seniors. They don't call it daycare, it's something else. Toby Jenkins: Drop-in? Gordon George: Yeah, where people that can go- they have all kinds of classes. They haveToby Jenkins: Fitness center. Gordon George: Dancing, yeah, all the- bunch of stuff that they do. Toby Jenkins: They help you with your taxes. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: Help you navigate Medicare and finding the right insurance. Gordon George: Right. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So do you enjoy volunteering with Life Senior Services? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Do they know you're gay? Gordon George: Well, I would think so. Toby Jenkins: Okay. But you always feel welcome there? Gordon George: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Very good. 31 �Gordon George: Not a problem. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you- I'll say this as a PSA. What you're doing by volunteering and serving our community, the whole community, that does more to help us make sure that we create an inclusive community for LGBTQ people because we're visible and we're helping out where it's needed, instead of silo-ing ourself and isolating ourself. Gordon George: Right. Toby Jenkins: That's my PSA. Do you find that to be true? Gordon George: Yes, and we have several with the senior group here that also are ambassadors. Toby Jenkins: Okay. That do the volunteer programs? Gordon George: Mm-hmm, that do this. Toby Jenkins: Oh, cool, very cool. So let's think about, an archeologist uncovers these archives in a 100 years and he's gonna look at your interview and what message do you want to give to those who come after us. Or maybe young people today who just are not sure how all this came to be. They just think it's always been like this. What would be your message to the future and to people? Young people today about what would you message would you give them? Gordon George: They have privileges that older people have worked for to appreciate those privileges and to work on keeping those privileges and to help support the LGBTQ community and get involved, stay involved. And keep working, 'cause it's never- it's gonna be an uphill battle no matter how long it's gonna be. 'Cause you're always gonna have people that don't like our community and it's gonna be an uphill, ongoing battle. Toby Jenkins: Alright. Gordon George: And keep doing it. Keep the battle going. Toby Jenkins: Anything else? Gordon George: No, I don't think so. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dennis Neill, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality and Toby Jenkins, we've been present for this interview. We conclude our interview with Gordon George, affectionately known as GG around Oklahomans for Equality. Toby Jenkins: Thank you for tuning in for this broadcast. Gordon George: I appreciate it. Thank you. 32 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Gordon George Interview Description An account of the resource In this conversation, Gordon George shares his life story, detailing his experiences growing up in Kansas, moving to Tulsa, and discovering his identity as a gay man. He reflects on the challenges he faced in school, his involvement in the LGBTQ community, and the impact of the AIDS crisis. Gordon discusses his journey of coming out to his family, the importance of volunteering, and the progress of LGBTQ rights over the years. He emphasizes the need for continued activism and support for future generations. Subject The topic of the resource Gordon George Oral History Project from February 3, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gordon George, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 3, 2026 2026 AIDS AIDS/HIV Gordon George HIV/AIDs interview OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Toby Jenkins transcript video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e4b46d9f55a22883681b32e75bf22abb.png 0c29260f81fda686db1718a338fb2adf https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/469c4de02821dbf2019b08af990e03ad.doc bc66d2f554ece4a08d1dad469db1e26f Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2002] Pride Sponsor Letter Subject The topic of the resource Pride 2002 Description An account of the resource Letter from Tulsa Oklahoman for Human Rights Director of Fundraising/Events Greg Gatewood to Eric Watson, Director of Diversity at Williams Companies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Greg Gatewood Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 25, 2002 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Letter Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Pride 2002 Gay-friendly business https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/435bd10a9a8e0b5ef931d948f297090a.mp4 4ef6716f63d546c816ab61a5f578616b https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/fae96376eec4ca3c281596cf3b6bbca3.pdf b089230dcee36302c98fe3837d5c5760 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Greg Gatewood Interview Conducted by Dennis Neill Date: January 15, 2026 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Riverside Studio AI, February 4, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Greg Gatewood Summary In this engaging conversation, Greg Gatewood shares his life story, beginning with his upbringing in rural Wyandotte, Oklahoma. He reﬂects on his childhood experiences, including his education at Oklahoma State University, where he pursued architecture. Greg discusses the close-knit community of his small school, his involvement in sports, and his early interests in agriculture through the Future Farmers of America (FFA). He also touches on his family dynamics, highlighting the inﬂuence of his parents and siblings on his formative years. As the conversation progresses, Greg opens up about his journey of self-discovery regarding his sexual orientation, coming out as a gay man during his time at OSU in the mid-1980s. He recounts the challenges he faced growing up in a religious family and the societal pressures of the time. Greg's narrative shifts to his involvement in the LGBTQ community in Tulsa, detailing his volunteer work at the Tulsa Gay Community Center and his role in organizing Pride events. His reﬂections provide insight into the evolution of LGBTQ rights and visibility in Oklahoma, showcasing both personal and communal growth over the years. In this episode, the speakers reﬂect on their experiences and pivotal moments in the LGBTQ+ community, particularly focusing on the establishment and evolution of the Tulsa Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, and Community Center. They recount a poignant story from November 2000, when a man drove all night to seek refuge and support at the center after coming out to his wife. This encounter highlights the center's role as a safe haven and resource for individuals in crisis. The conversation also 2 �delves into the personal connections formed within the community, including the speakers' own relationship and their involvement in various initiatives, such as the Pyramid Project and Pride events, which aimed to foster inclusivity and support for LGBTQ+ individuals in Tulsa. As the discussion progresses, the speakers share their memories of signiﬁcant events, including the impact of Matthew Shepard's death on the community and the importance of activism in raising awareness. They reﬂect on their roles in organizing Pride events and the challenges faced in advocating for LGBTQ+ rights. The episode concludes with a sense of nostalgia and gratitude for the friendships and connections made through their work, emphasizing the ongoing journey toward equality and acceptance. Keywords Greg Gatewood, LGBTQ history, Oklahoma State University, coming out, Pride events, Tulsa Gay Community Center, rural upbringing, architecture, family dynamics, gay rights, LGBTQ+, Tulsa Community Center, Pride events, Matthew Shepard, LGBTQ+ activism, community support, coming out stories, LGBTQ+ history, safe spaces, personal connections Takeaways • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • "I grew up on a farm, small farm." "I was in FFA, Future Farmers of America." "I came out at OSU in 1986." "Growing up religious, there was a lot of guilt." "We wanted to be more visible." "I was volunteer of the year in 97." "We had a very active movie night where we'd show the movies." "I had every intention of going back to Houston when I graduated." "I was in charge of the festival for the 99 Pride." "We chose Boulder Park and moved the date, made it more visible." 'I didn't know where to go. I didn't know what to do.' 'It's just, I don't know what I would have done.' 'Naming is a very big thing.' 'We probably had 300 people there.' 'She was the mother of a lot of gay guys here in Tulsa.' 'That was probably during the Pride of 2007.' 3 �• • • • 'We went to every bar on Friday and Saturday night.' 'I could write some, I could write good too.' 'That really did help that event.' 'It's hard to believe it's been 30 years.' Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Early Life 01:33 Growing Up in Wyandotte, Oklahoma 07:41 College Life at Oklahoma State University 10:41 Coming Out and LGBTQ Identity 23:41 Faith and Family Dynamics 35:34 Building the Honors College and Early Career 36:48 Involvement with TOHR and Early Pride Events 39:39 Challenges and Triumphs of Organizing Pride 41:29 The First Pride Parade: A Pivotal Moment 50:53 The Sign Controversy and Community Response 53:10 Finding a New Home for the Community Center 59:23 Personal Connections: Meeting Carrie and Building Community 01:12:45 Transitioning Leadership and Expanding Pride 01:19:20 Memorable Moments and Community Impact 01:34:02 Reﬂections on Activism and Legacy __________________________________________________________________________________ 4 �Dennis Neill: I'm Dennis Neill and we're at the Equality Center in the Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library. It is January the 15th, 2026 and I have the pleasure of interviewing Greg Gatewood. So Greg, would you please state your name and your age and the place you were born? Greg Gatewood: Hi, I'm Greg Gatewood, the age of 60 as of last year, and I was born in Neosho, Missouri. I grew up in rural Oklahoma, Wyandotte, Oklahoma. Dennis Neill: And can you tell us a little bit about your experience growing up in Wyandotte, including your education? Greg Gatewood: Well, I said I grew up in rural Oklahoma, so I grew up on a farm, a small farm. My grandparents had a large farm, a big dairy farm, and they lived next to my other set of grandparents, so I had a lot of land to roam. So I grew up in the country, went to graduate from Wyandotte High School a few years ago in 1983, and then went to Oklahoma State University. Dennis Neill: And what did you major in at Oklahoma State? Greg Gatewood: In architecture. Dennis Neill: And how many years were you at Oklahoma State? Greg Gatewood: The program was ﬁve years, the architecture program. I was there six. I took a break because they changed some rules in mid-school year, and getting to professional school was a big decision. Dennis Neill: So talking a little bit more about your early years, what was your involvement with your family, the farm, and then tell us a little bit about the peers that you were growing up with in Wyandotte, what you found pleasurable and some of the unpleasurable experiences as a youth in Wyandotte? Greg Gatewood: Well, I had a good childhood, I mean, overall, I mean, like I said, I grew up in the country, but went to a small school, so we had, in small school Oklahoma, with 50, I think I graduated with 56 people, so you knew everybody, you knew what everyone did, you knew what everyone did last night, you even knew what everyone was going to do tomorrow, because you knew. Always. But growing up, it was, overall, it was good, I played football, I was in FFA, I was always active and, well, I didn't play baseball because we didn't have baseball in Wyandotte. 5 �We had basketball and football in sports, so I played football, basketball one year. I was not coordinated enough to run and shoot at the same time, so I did play football and track one year. That wasn't a good thing for me, but it was FFA, I was very big in FFA, Future Farmers of America, I was in the forestry team, which is, you judge trees. I can tell you, I can look at a tree, I used to be able to look at a tree and tell you the name, the botanical name, could it make pulpwood, could it make saw logs, and was pretty good at it. But I didn't choose that path to be a forester, because you're outside a lot in the winter, so instead I focused on architecture. But always growing up, I was kind of the artistic child. I had an older sibling, he's my late brother, he is like a small version of my father, he's very much similar to my father. My sister is kind of a mix of the two families, I take after my mother's side of the family, so I'm the middle child, I'll just say that, I'm the middle child. But yeah, my siblings, we grew up on a dirt road out in the country, half a mile from the highway, so we rode bikes back and forth on dirt road, horrible, horrible wrecks on that dirt road, I remember once, and more than once, and on lots of hills, we grew up in a very hilly area, so we'd push my sister down on the hood of a car as a sled, for her to test out the chump on that big hill, we still talk about that today. Dennis Neill: Are you still close to your sister? Greg Gatewood: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Dennis Neill: Where does she live? Greg Gatewood: She was in, now she lives in Wyandotte, Oklahoma. She moved back to Wyandotte. Dennis Neill: Now, geographically, place Wyandotte for us? Greg Gatewood: It is near Miami, Oklahoma, in Ottawa County, in an extreme northeast section of Oklahoma, or extreme northeast county. Dennis Neill: So did you ever show farm animals? Greg Gatewood: Oh yeah, well no, no I did not. Although my grandfather was a dairy farmer and my other grandfather was a beef farmer. And I was in FFA, and I knew, I certainly fed the cows and fed the hogs and knew I would do all that. My projects in FFA were trees, because that was just what my brother had gotten into and was very good at. So, and I kind of followed that up. Dennis Neill: And can you tell us a little bit about your parents, what their profession was? 6 �Greg Gatewood: Well, my mom and dad met when my parents, when my dad's parents moved into the big dairy farm next door to my mom's parents. That's how they met. And they moved there in 60, 1960. They got married in 1961. Nine months later, almost to the day, my brother was born. It was a quick honeymoon, it was a productive honeymoon to the day, to the day. I forgot what I was gonna talk about. Dennis Neill: Oh, your professions of your parents. Greg Gatewood: Oh, yeah, but dad was a machinist. He worked at BF Goodrich in Miami, Oklahoma for years until it shut down in 86. Then he moved and worked in Springﬁeld and ﬁnished up his career in Tamco, which is in Joplin, Missouri, as a machinist. Mom, she graduated from NEO A&M in Miami and was born in Tonkawa, Oklahoma. He grew up to be a son of seven siblings. He's the middle son, too. But then I grew up on a dairy farm, obviously. My mom grew up in rural Oklahoma as well. She met my dad when they moved in next door. Greg Gatewood: She's been a homemaker, she's been, for the majority of her life, she was secretary at Wyandotte Public Schools, elementary school, and at that time in the 70s, you weren't just secretary, you were like the secretary, the nurse, the counselor, because it's a small school, they didn't have a nurse, so if a child got hurt, the secretary took care of that. So she was kinda all that, retired from that. Dennis Neill: I'm sorry, what year did you start at OSU? I started at OSU in 1984. Dennis Neill: Okay, and tell us a little bit about your time at OSU, where you lived, were you part of a fraternity, other social organizations, and your overall experience while you were at Oklahoma State. Greg Gatewood: Well, I started at OSU, at Oklahoma State University for folks in, like I said, 1984, I went to, I'd had a year, ﬁrst went to NEO A&M in Miami, I had a scholarship there. So I was just 15 miles from the house, but then I went, I enrolled there, and they said, well, there's no, you need to get down to Stillwater. So I went on down there just after one year at NEO. And going there, I lived in Bennett Hall, lived in, because I was choosing a more economical path, I went into an un-airconditioned dorm. It was one of the largest dorms when it was built, largest dorm in the US. It was over ﬁve miles of hallways, it's a big dorm. And it was a dorm then, it was a dorm. But great times, OSU was really good. The dorm life there, other than Bennett Hall, for two years, had a great time. Turned out, turns out that seven of the guys on that ﬂoor, on my ﬂoor alone, are now out gay men, in Tulsa. Dennis Neill: Oh, wow. 7 �Greg Gatewood: Yeah, there's quite a few of us on my ﬂoor. But, of course, I majored in architecture. That meant you spent most of your time in architecture studio, in the architecture building. In fact, if you didn't spend enough time according to the professors, they would happily ﬁll out the drop slip for you and leave it on your desk, and when you found it, you were expected to drop. So, we spent four hours in studio every day. And that's class time, and then you're expected to spend probably four to ﬁve more hours every day in studio. Dennis Neill: Were you in the old armory? Greg Gatewood: Yeah, the old armory. Yeah, yeah. Now it's been really built, they've added two big additions on now that we just had a simple, seemed like an unheated studio to do our work in. Dennis Neill: You mentioned your ﬂoor mates. Are you still in touch with any of them that have moved to Tulsa? Greg Gatewood: Not really, well, there's a few. Well, there's, on my ﬂoor, there was Brad Mulholland, Tim Brown, Michael Smith, Randy Jones, Michael and Tim were roommates down at the end of the hall. And then Brad was in the center, Randy was in the center, and then there was a couple of them in, the Rotsi guy, I can't remember his name. But, they're all living in Tulsa. We're not close, but I know who they are. Keep in touch with them and stuff. Dennis Neill: So how do you identify as far as your orientation? Greg Gatewod: Oh, as gay, as a gay man, which, speaking of Oklahoma State, I go to college, I was gonna talk about that. I keep in contact more, that's when I went out. I came out at OSU in the, probably in 86, I think, so I would be 21, you know. Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, that was 1986. Dennis Neill: So prior to that, what kind of led up to you deciding that it was time to come out? Talk a little bit about your feelings and how it developed over time until that point in 1986. Greg Gatewood: Well, that can bring up all kinds of things there. I grew up in a very religious family. Dennis Neill: What faith? 8 �Greg Gatewood: Methodist, Methodist. In fact, the Methodist church that I grew up in is now no longer Methodist because of the gay issue. They left the Methodist denomination a couple years ago, which my brother and my father and my mother and my sister of all, my family, all voted to leave Methodist church after I'd been out for, you know, I don't know, 30 years. So, but anyway, that's another subject. But yeah, so growing up religious is, there was, because I ﬁgured, I realized I was gay or was attracted to guys, probably in eighth grade, if I remember correctly, Gino Fleener. Not that I remember the name. but yeah, I remember that. But that's for, so growing up, I was, I never really had any girlfriends. I knew if I needed a date to the prom, I could date. But I didn't really have any girlfriends at all, growing up or ever. So I think I may have been called Gay Gator. Gator was my name, nickname growing up. Greg Gatewood: My brother was called Gator. My uncle was called Gator. It was just a tradition that the Gatewood boys were called Gator. My sister was called Little Gator. But anyway, so at one point I remember I was called Gay Gator. And this was in, I was in junior high, so in the 70s, yeah. But I also had, I came from a good family in that county. I came from the Gatewood family, which in the rural Oklahoma, it matters why your last name is. But the Gatewoods…and you could, you had the right name, the right last name. Greg Gatewood: Because my family were big farmers, everybody knew the Gatewoods in that county. So I was, I could, I played football. That was good, I was in FFA. I didn't, I didn't have any girlfriends. I was pretty sure I was gay. I can't remember if I really had a word. You had thoughts. But no actions. I didn't really have a problem, I didn't think of it growing up, I guess. I mean, I thought of it, I deﬁnitely thought of it, but then you'd have severe guilt. And then, and then I went to college at OSU. So when you went to, you went to university, you know, you're out and alone. You're out on yourself, by yourself for the ﬁrst time. I was in a dorm room for the ﬁrst time, or living on my own for the ﬁrst time. Well, I remember this is, in a dorm room, just bored, or not bored, but I had, the ﬁrst two weeks, I didn't have a roommate there, my ﬁrst year there, but then I got one. Then I got a roommate, and he was good at architecture too, which is good, and I thought that was good. And it turned out that we were in the same class, one of the architecture 2,003 in class, and I was reading his notes, and then at the end of that notebook was a pretty descriptive story of earlier that afternoon in our dorm room, and it turned out he was a closet gay guy. And I learned a lot, or not learned a lot, but I recognized that from his story in this classroom notebook and he moved out very shortly after. After that he was moved to a different dorm. 9 �But, like I said, there's a lot of I don't know. It was in at OSU, my ﬁrst semester. I would say there that I met some guys and became friends with them, became friends. I have some really good friends. They're still my best friends. They're from college. Dennis Neill: How about, while you were at OSU, were you involved in? Was there like an LGBTQ group there? Greg Gatewood: Well, there's, I have a lot of friends. It was in the 80s and it's still our Oklahoma. There was a group now. Well, like I said, I came out, there was there's. Was it Boomer Lake? I don't know why Stillwater has a lake called Boomer Lake, but there's Boomer Lake and there's shelter number six and that's where all those gay guys that were out and some that weren't- that's a lot that weren't. We'd just hang out. Greg Gatewood: So we'd go and hang out to shelter number six and just hang out and there'd be- there could be- 20-30 guys under 21 because we were too young to go to bars. Then this is so we'd just be hanging out there and just you know, just your college guys, for the love of God. And that's when there was Richard Gordon, who is a still friend of mine, who's in Dallas now. He was president of students for Homosexual Awareness, which was a gay group in Stillwater's student group with not, admittedly, not the best name in the world- students for Homosexual Awareness- but he would go around to psych classes and human sexuality classes and this is in the mid 80s, 85,, 86, and talk about being gay and and was proud. I mean he was very out, he was very out. He grew up here in Tulsa. I was, I was out from, well, deﬁnitely my sophomore year I was pretty much out, but not necessarily to my family, but everybody in Stillwater. I didn't come out necessarily and tell people, but just your friends, there was in the student union in the food court. We had a and there may have been some hollering students and stuff. You could. You could pretty much tell yeah, that's a gay table, it's a table of gay guys because they tend to holler at other guys. We didn't care, we really didn't care if they knew, but yeah, so Richard was the president, student for homosexual awareness and a brave, brave individual, very brave. Dennis Neill: So was it a recognized student…? Greg Gatewood: I don't know if it was a recognized student group Dennis Neill: But like, did you all have regular meetings? There were none students … we would have a meeting, I think at a speaker perhaps. So it may have been a recognized. It probably was a recognized group. Dennis Neill: So where did you meet? 10 �Greg Gatewood: Usually in a classroom. There was a classroom building and there would be in one of those classrooms usually. So I only went to a couple of meetings. Dennis Neill: You talked about the table where you all would gather. Were you ever really harassed while you were on campus about being gay or any of these members that were associated? Do you think it was a welcoming environment or just kind of a…? Greg Gatewood: Well, I think people knew because they're not stupid and you could tell. I mean Randy Jones and Eric- I can't remember his last name- they would go, they both knew French, so they were talking in French with an Arkansas twang. It was odd and there would be some gay innuendos in those things, in those things they would say so we just had a good time. But there was some speaking for myself, I'm sure there was. I'm just I'm sure there was, but speaking for myself, I didn't. I've never had too much of anti-gay backlash directly at me because one I'm 6'1 and I just, I've never had that as much as some guys have. Except when I fully came out, it was third year, I think, in architecture, and you're divided into classes, and you're different years. And Richard came up to me, he came to the studio one night, and he, of course, everyone knew Richard Gordon because he went around to classes and spoke. And he was like, a bunch of us are going to Bobo's. Bobo's is a Mexican restaurant in Stillwater at that point. We're going to Bobo's to have margaritas, you wanna go? It's like 11 o'clock at night at the studio. So I was like, sure, I'll go. So I dropped everything, go, we start going down the hallway, or get down the ﬁrst ﬂoor, I come back up, because I'd forgotten my keys. The entire class, 40 people, or about 40 people, were sitting around, had gathered around someone's desk, it was close to mine, they had gathered around that desk, and were talking. I could tell, I could hear it, because this was probably a couple of minutes after I'd left, came back up there because I'd forgotten my keys and couldn't go. They were all talking about me because they'd seen that Richard Gordon, who was a known gay guy, came and got me, and we were going out to drinks. So that was a topic of discussion, that was, I think, my third year. But I didn't get any blowback and ﬂak about that. I mean, I'm sure there were closeted gay guys in that class at that point. I would lay money on it. Dennis Neill: Do you know, did the Students for Homosexual Awareness had a faculty advisor? Greg Gatewood: I don't, I don't believe so, off the top of my head, but I'm not for sure. There was, my last year in architecture at OSU, there was a gay professor who was closeted, semi-closeted, but semi-out. And then, now I think about the ﬁrst, one of the ﬁrst 11 �openly gay guys that I saw at OSU was because I saw his TOHR sticker on his banner in the studio, and that was, if I can remember his name, Roger Barton. Dennis Neill: What did he, he was a professor? Greg Gatewood: No, he was a student. He was an architecture student. He was a little older guy, but he had a TOHR sticker on his area, in your desk when you worked, in your studio. Dennis Neill: He must have been from Tulsa. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, he was from Tulsa, and I think at that time it was TOHR. Dennis Neill: I wonder if he's still around? Greg Gatewood: I don't know, I don't know, because I hadn't thought of his name until just now. But that was in, yeah, 84, 84, spring of 84, spring of 85, and it was clear, he was out. He would bring his partner up to the studio. He didn't care. Dennis Neill: So, to reﬂect back a little bit on, you mentioned the Methodist church that you grew up on, very conservative. So, walk us through a little bit about your experience with religion and faith, both your own and then with your family, and then as you've progressed through life, what is your feeling about being out in your faith community, and has it been an issue within the circle of your family and friends? Greg Gatewood: Well, growing up in Oklahoma, Oklahoma's, you know, lots of people, or faith is a major thing in a lot of people's lives, and faith is an obstacle, maybe an obstacle in a lot of people's lives. Like I said, I grew up Methodist, but the church was affiliated Methodist. Growing up, we had an Assembly of God preacher. So, it was more of a, Assembly of God slant, I guess, because, you know, there was speaking in tongues. That, and it was a country, very much a country church. Of course, growing up, I kind of ﬁgured, like I said, when I, probably eighth grade, I remember thinking, you know, I'm different. I'm attracted to guys. And you didn't hear much about the, and I don't recall hearing much about that in church growing up, as far as, if I did, it was gonna be bad, I can almost guarantee that. But only in recent years. So I came out in the 80s. I came out to my family in the early 90s completely. Fully. A couple years after graduation from OSU. I stopped going to the church I grew up in when Monte Sundy, the preacher, went on a rant of anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-Muslim, so much other stuff. I was like, I'm never going to go there. And I haven’ stepped foot in that church again except for… 12 �Dennis Neill: And how old were you then? Greg Gatewood: Probably in my 40s. It's been over a decade. I've gone back for a funeral. But that's the only reason. Dennis Neill: And this is your home church? Greg Gatewood: Yeah, the home church. It was Sycamore Chapel, United Methodist Church. Little country church. But my grandfather, the big, dirty farmer, gave acreage so he could build the park and stuff. Or the fellowship hall and stuff. Although he went to a different church. Growing up with a strong religious background, and then coming to realize that you're attracted to guys. And then the guilt. And if you would, just by thinking about stuff, the guilt. I graduated high school in 83. I was going to church. I was in high school in the 80s, almost 70s. High school in the 80s. And also in the 80s, AIDS hit big time. It was in the news a lot. So that was another whole other factor on that. I remember things being told, in my family, at family gatherings about AIDS killing all the right people. After I came out, I heard, you'll just get AIDS and die from family members. And there's a lot of religious aspects of that. When the ﬁrst time I came out, or the ﬁrst time that Kerry came with me to some family wedding, I think my brother and my cousin talked to me. And I probably had 25 people there, those family members. They just refused to talk to me. Still to this day. But it's gotten better over 26 years. Dennis Neill: So are your parents still alive? Greg Gatewood: Yeah, both of them are, yes. Both are in their mid-80s. Dennis Neill: And have they accepted where you are? Greg Gatewood: Yeah, it's gotten better, it's gotten better. I mean, like I said, Sycamore Chapel United Methodist Church is now Sycamore Chapel Church because they left the Methodist Church because, as I pointed out, they hate gay people. I kind of told them that. Because I left the Methodist Church. I was required to send a letter. And I was kind of blunt in that letter. But yeah, when the church I grew up in, and I'm not, at this point in my life, no, I'm not religious at all. I mean, point blank. Dennis Neill: So take us, you graduated what year from OSU? Greg Gatewood: 1990. Dennis Neill: Okay, and then take us through the next few years. How have you developed? 13 �Greg Gatewood: Well, in the summer of 89, I lived in Houston. I had every intention of going back to Houston when I graduated, every intention. Dennis Neill: Were you interning down there? Greg Gatewood: Yeah, I interned that summer down there. My uncle had an architectural engineering ﬁrm, and he got me a job, basically, at an architecture ﬁrm. So I worked for them for a summer. I had an apartment there for a summer. I had every intention, one, desire to go back because I had a lot of fun in Houston that summer. And I implored him to go back, but that didn't work out. It wasn't just, architecture wasn't hiring, necessarily. It wasn't really good in 1990. So I ended up in Tulsa. I moved, I graduated on May 4th and started my job on June 4th. So that's how much time I've given myself a month to get a job. So I started there, moved here, had a, was dating someone at that point that lived in Tulsa. That didn't last very long. It seems like when I ﬁrst moved to Tulsa, I would move apartments about every year. I moved to a lot of apartments. I lived downtown. Before downtown was popular, I was downtown at 8th and Cincinnati, way before anyone was. That building's no longer here. They tore it down after we remodeled the building. Mark Henry's parents, or dad, owned it. He owned it, and we remodeled that building, he tore it down. Dennis Neill: I remember that building, because he lived there for a while. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, he lived there, he lived right down below. Yeah, we ﬁlled it up with an architecture student friend of mine, a young girl, and then an older lady lived on the third ﬂoor, too, and four gay guys. And then they announced they were gonna close the building down, and we all moved out. After I'd recruited Michelle, my college classmate, to move down there. We should've moved down there in less than two months, and we all moved, because they were gonna tear the building down. Anyway, I digress. But yeah, I moved to Tulsa in 1990. I was out at that point, I was an out gay man. But I'd go to bars and stuff like that. And then, I remember the ﬁrst time I went, and I don't know if I've told you this before, I maybe have, Tulsa was getting ready to do a, what's it, discrimination ordinance in the city of Tulsa, maybe, at some level, for the city of Tulsa. And it was in the news, and there were meetings. And I went, I think it was at the library or the civic center, it was you and Nancy McDonald and some other people on the stage. And there was a large group of people, and lots of screaming and yelling. Dennis Neill: Worst time of my life. 14 �Greg Gatewood: Yelling, screaming, gnashing of teeth. There was, I'll never forget that meeting. Dennis Neill: I won't either. Greg Gatewood: And that was in 93, 94? Dennis Neill: 1994. Greg Gatewood: And yeah, I remember that. And that was when I was like, huh. So I started volunteering in, I think it was 96. Dennis Neill: And where were we located then? Greg Gatewood: TOHR offices were at 41st and Harvard. Yeah, they were at 41st and Harvard in the pink, no they're not pink. Yeah. Dennis Neill: So you came aboard right about as they were … Greg Gatewood: Right before they moved to the ﬁrst Pride Center. Dennis Neill: So were you involved in the move to…? Greg Gatewood: I, well, like I said, I ﬁrst volunteered at that little office, and then they moved the center. I kind of lost track of, I think. I was, I had a other boyfriend at that point. We donated money, I think, for the new center. But I didn't go, but then I started volunteering. It opened in 96, didn't it? Yeah, the ﬁrst center opened in 96. And I think I started volunteering there in 97. Dennis Neill: When you were on 41st and Harvard, was that to work the hotline? Greg Gatewood: Yeah, yeah, the little hotline. And they had a community room too, I think, maybe. They had meetings. But it was a little hotline, little small little room. And I remember there was, I think there was a dry erase board with numbers written on it, maybe. And there was sheets, maybe, you know. Dennis Neill: And were we still just doing the hotline in the evenings? Greg Gatewood: Hotline in the evenings, yeah, six to nine, I think. Or six to 10, maybe. Dennis Neill: We would respond to any messages, right, that were left on the answering machine, and all that, that's interesting. So when you came here and you got involved with this architectural ﬁrm, are there some projects that are notable that you were involved with? In architecture? 15 �Greg Gatewood: Oh my, that I want to lay claim to? Dennis Neill: Were you kind of residential, commercial, or? Greg Gatewood: My architecture ﬁrm, the architecture ﬁrms that I worked for, or the main one I worked for a long time, or the one that I worked for nine years, focused more on commercial. So if there's a St. Louis building, or now Panera Bread, a Panera Bread in Tulsa, or a Homeland that's now closed, or Reasers, I probably worked on it at some point, because we did Reasers and Homelands, and Panera Breads, and lots of apartment complexes. If you see a red case, cube. Dennis Neill: Oh yeah, Case Property. Greg Gatewood: We did a lot of Case Property stuff, so little fences and fence sets. This is in the early 90s. Not a lot of buildings were being built, by any means, but little fences and fence sets around apartment buildings. Remodels of apartment complexes, remodels of apartment buildings, remodels of grocery stores, Reasers, all kinds of stuff like that. In office build-outs, office appearance. Dennis Neill: So you were with them until 1999? Greg Gatewood: 1999, then I moved to, or 98. Moved to a lot of Christian Shore, which is another ﬁrm, which is a ﬁrm here in town. And I did, my main building there was, I did an OU, the OU Honors College. It was good, it was for the Honors College. David Boren was president. We did a little addition to the Honors College and they're close, close to the, I think it's close to the stadium, football stadium there. Dennis Neill: So were you out in your work environment as well? Greg Gatewood: I guess, yeah. Dennis Neill: Any issues? Greg Gatewood: No, in the architecture world, it's kind of not expected, but, but, but, you know, gonna run into one or two at least. Dennis Neill: Yeah. Greg Gatewood: I think there's, even in architecture, there were two gay guys, almost at all points, at all times, there were two gay guys or a gay guy and a lesbian working there all the time. I don't know why. Dennis Neill: So your rich history with TOHR started in 1996, it sounds like, correct? 16 �Greg Gatewood: It must have, yeah. Dennis Neill: So kind of walk us through that, and of course, really highlight your involvement with getting the ﬁrst Pride permit and your involvement from that point on. Greg Gatewood: Oh, we're gonna go over an hour now. Okay. Dennis Neill: No, we're actually only at 36 minutes. Greg Gatewood: I thought I'd been rambling and making no sense. Okay, oh goodness. So like I said, you saw I started volunteering in 96, it was the center, or not the center, it was the offices, and then when I moved to the ﬁrst center, the Pride Center, at 38th and Peoria, I remember Steve Horn, Steve Horn was a volunteer coordinator at that point. Greg Gatewood: He was the president the next year, but I think Tom Neal was president, I think, when it was down there, I'm gonna say. Dennis Neill: I think that's correct. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, yeah, because, yeah, I started volunteering there on Tuesday nights, once a week. Then I started coming down there and they wanted to do other things, I'd come down and start doing some other stuff, volunteered for Pride, I think it was 97, yeah, when Pride was at Owen Park for a couple years. I think that's because Toby has told me this, he's like, I was told to tell him to do trash stuff at Owen Park, I don't recall that at all, so it must have been, had to be 97, but that was the ﬁrst year I think of Pride, it was 97, but was volunteer of the year in 97, started doing some other stuff down there at the center, then joined the board in 1998. 1998 was a very memorable year for TOHR, now OkEq, because it was my ﬁrst year on the board, we had taken over store, the Pride store was in there, it was run by somebody else at that point, until that point, but TOHR bought them out. So when I became a board member, I and Steve Horn and Ken Southern, that was later in the year, we started spending a lot of time trying to get the center, we had that store, we wanted to make it proﬁtable, that was a source of income. I think we were making six or seven hundred dollars a month off the store, and that was, we needed the money. But in 1998 also, as a new board member, the biggest decision I ever made at that point was HOPE, we spun off HOPE in the ﬁrst couple months of that year. There were some ﬁnancial difficulties or improprieties, you might say, and some dangers that could have happened. 17 �So there was a board meeting in which HOPE, which is Health, then it was HIV Outreach Prevention Education, but now it's Health, I think Health Outreach Prevention Education, it was a program of TOHR, saying that there had been some issues going on, and so it was in the best interest for it to be split off into its own non-proﬁt, because to be honest, from what was I told from state office people, or state office, state people, that if something didn't happen, then the state would close you down. So, it was split off. That was in 98, probably February, March, it was early 98. That was, yeah, that was split off. Lost a couple board members over that because… it was a long-time board member walked out of the room then. So it was tumultuous. But I think since that happened, both TOHR now OkEq, and HOPE have now both grown in different, I mean, I think HOPE is doing good up to OkEq, HOPE is now where, look where they are. Look where OkEq is and Hope. But yeah, that was a tough decision. But then Pride started, of course you had the center. I think the center, it was called the Pride Center at that point, unofficially. Everyone in the gay community center movement was renaming their centers then. So we renamed it the Tulsa Gay Community Services Center. Again, bad name. And I can show the logo, I'm sure it says, but anyway, we called it that then, we called it that. And then we started to have, ﬁrst we had Pride. We were gonna have, it was in June, so we were gonna change, one, we wanted to change it and become way more visible. Me, Steve Horn and Rick Martin. So we decided we're gonna, instead of Owen Park or Mohawk Park, we just like, we wanted it to be more visible. It's like, the city gave us three choices, I think was, what's it, [Boulder Park[ it's called Dream Keepers Park now. Dream Keepers Park was a choice. A park, Haikey Creek Park, believe it or not, was also a choice somehow, but that was a county park. And some park, I think it's the park out at like 61st and Memorial in that area. There's a park in there, that was a choice we had. We could have it at Owen Park if we had the boy scouts park cars, and you didn't want that at that point. So we chose Boulder Park and moved the date and moved the location, made it more visible. And there have been marches going on in 96 and, I think, no, the ﬁrst one was in 97, maybe, I think, the march at Owen Park. 98 was gonna be the second march. So Rick started doing stuff for the march. And so he has marches the short ways, I think from downtown somewhere to Boulder Park or Dream Keepers Park. And when Rick was getting, or talking to somebody, I don't know if you had a permit or not for to walk on the sidewalks, but the police chief at that point asked him, well, why aren't you all having a parade? And this is in 98, and probably two or three weeks before the actual date of parade. So, but yeah, parade, so you can't really pull off a parade in two 18 �weeks, because it's been tried. Can't get a permit. But we did start, it's like, well, it's gonna happen the next year. So before 98 Pride had happened, plans were already talked about for a parade in 99. So as soon as that was over, we started plans for 99 and the ﬁrst parade. And we kind of lucked out, because we had a very dedicated group of people that were doing stuff. One reason is because, not only is that the one reason, there were multiple reasons. In 98, we had decided as a board that we need to increase TOHR's visibility and name and presence of doing things. So we decided to have an event every month for the next 12 months. Greg Gatewood: And you had a lot of stuff, we had Halloween parties. I mean, we didn't have the business or the huge crowds, but Halloween parties to Superbowl parties to all kinds of little gatherings. And we spent so much time. But that, but Pride was rolling around. And so we changed locations for Dream Keepers Park. And we sent out a letter. I was in charge of booths, so I started sending out letters to businesses. I got some very positive feedback from some local businesses and gay groups. And started relationships with Budweiser and various things. Greg Gatewood: So in 99, well after 98 was over, we started playing from 99. And we were fortunate that we got…He was Parade Chair, well Mitch was Parade Chair, Mitch Savage was Parade Chair. He hired Ken Southerd, who was a long-time volunteer with TOHR at that point. He basically hired him to do the parade. And then we had, oh my lordy, I forgot about that, we had Barney Frank, who was the only out, who was the ﬁrst out gay congressman in the United States. And we had him as a, we were talking, it was like, who can we get as Parade, Grand Marshal, he's gonna draw name interest that we can, you know, not pay, because we need this to be free. Greg Gatewood: So we had, someone wrote Barney Frank, and he accepted. So we had people, he accepted, we didn't have to pay him, we didn't have to pay him, we don't pay him. But we did ﬂy him ﬁrst class, so we had people trade in their points, so we could bump him up to ﬁrst class. That was probably Mitch, I think, or behind the scenes, Mitch and Ken did a lot of work in, for the parade, for the parade, massive amounts. Dennis Neill: And do you remember who reached out…Who came up with the idea and reached out to Barney. Greg Gatewood: I don't know, we were probably some planning meeting. Yeah. I don't know who, whose idea it was, but the, of course, when he accepted, and I was, what was good about that weekend, because he was a big, I was his host. Me and B.J. Kissinger, I think, from the Democratic Party, were his co-hosts, so everywhere that Barney went, we 19 �had to be. I had hit my knee, sat in for pride that day, when Barney got in, I'd hit it with a, by a soccer goal down at the park. We were moving it, it hit my knee, bumped it, it's swollen up to the size of a softball by the next day. So I was hobbling around. I got a really bad sunburn. I'll never forget that year. I got a bad sunburn from setting up. We had that for dinner that night with Barney Frank. I was sunburned really bad. Yeah, that was the ﬁrst, that was, to me, in my mind, that's the ﬁrst gala we had, actually. Dennis Neill: Yeah, and if I recall right, and correct me if I'm wrong, Greg, it seems like the dinner was at Greenwood Cultural Center. Greg Gatewood: Greenwood Cultural Center, yes. That was in, we partnered with Cimarron Alliance to get that building, to get that dinner done. It was at Greenwood Cultural Center. And I think, I will say, I know we charged $75 a ticket, and then more, I think it was $50 more for the reception beforehand. And then it was at Greenwood Cultural Center, we were probably, me and Tim Williams, AFAB catering, catered it. We had a good turnout, we had a good turnout. Dennis Neill: And it seems like I remember, didn't we walk from there to reception at OSU, or? Greg Gatewood: Yeah, there was reception, yeah, there was, yeah, there was reception at OSU, yeah. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, and then their dinner was at Greenwood. Dennis Neill: Okay, so it was ﬁrst, yeah, reception ﬁrst. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, it was reception, I think, I think, I can't remember. I remember, I was dressed in a tux, I had a really bad sunburn, And it was, and I was with Marty, and my knee was hobbling. But that was, yeah, that was a very memorable year. 1999, the next, and then, of course, the next day, we had an interfaith breakfast at 7 o'clock in the morning, for some unknown reason, on a Sunday. I think Barney had to ﬂy out early, that's because we, so, yeah. Dennis Neill: So what was your actual title with regard to that, 1999? Greg Gatewood: Oh, I was in 99, oh, in 99, I was the ﬁrst vice president of TOHR at that point, but I was, it was for the, what did I do? I may have been in charge of the festival. Dennis Neill: And you have an interesting story about when the sign ﬁrst went up on Brookside, do you want to share that story? 20 �Greg Gatewood: Okay, that was in 98, that was in 98. In 1998, like I said, we had moved Pride to Dream Keepers Park because we wanted to be more visible. But we also wanted to put a sign on the building to be visible. So we made a sign, it said, gay, in letters that were like this tall, Gay Community Center and Pride Store. On one label on each side of the street, one on Peoria and one on 38th Street. But when that label came in, we were going to hang it up. This is me again, me, Steve Horn, and Rick Daniels. We did a lot in 1998. We got, the banners came in, and we decided to hang them up. We hung them up from the, we got on the roof, we hung them up, we had the Pride ﬂag on the ﬂagpoles up the roof. We hung up one banner on 38th Street, we hung up the other banner on Peoria. And we were up on the roof, and we were getting ready. And I said, I told Rick and Daniel, I was like, you know, we've, this is going to cause a wreck. This is going to cause, because we're on Peoria, something's going to happen. And we hadn't, we barely got on the roof, it hadn't been ten minutes, if not ﬁve. Greg Gatewood: And screeching of tires, metal clad, there was a wreck, directly in front of the center. And I swear, it had to be the signs, it had to be the signs. Those signs caused some issues later on. Dennis Neill: speaking of those signs. Can you review that with us a little bit, about Kerry’s involvement in that, because I recall, it seems like Mark Bonney might have been involved in that dispute too. Gret Gatewood: Yeah, there was a guy, well I don't know much about the law thing, what happened there. But I was just, yeah, yeah, the signs, we hung up the signs, yeah, kind of, well, we hung up the signs, because we want to be visible, we hung up the signs. We got kicked out, we lost our lease because we hung up the signs. And there was, like you said, Kerry, my husband, an attorney, and Mark Bonney, an attorney, were in legal, I know they, I know, I really couldn't say what all was done by, what they all did by, because I wasn't privy to all that. Dennis Neill: So were you involved when we found the new space there on 21st? Greg Gatewood: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Dennis Neill: And talk a little bit about that, the move and how you located that property. Greg Gatewood: Well, I had, Steve had left, that was in 2000, yeah. Steve and his boyfriend had moved to Denver, I think, and right after Pride night, right after the ﬁrst parade, they moved. Dennis Neill: Steve Horn? 21 �Greg Gatewood: Steve Horn, yeah, they moved, so I became president then. And that's when all that was going, that's when all that was going, the other people handled all the legal stuff. We had to ﬁnd, we had a year, I guess, yeah, we had a year, but we didn't move until 2000. But because we lost the lease, and there was a legal battle, we ended up moving, having to move. We found the place at 21st and Memorial. One, it was very economical, it was all bills paid, and quite economical. It needed a lot of work. It was kind of half down, and it was hard to describe. Because you came in, and you had to go down steps on either side, you had to go down. The accessible pathway was kind of a nightmare to get there. But when we leased that, I remember I was president. One of the things I remember about that is the different spaces we looked at, that was gonna be the best. We had to do a lot of work to it. So we had some donors, myself and another Kerry. Paint, paint, paint, paint. We painted that building, painted the interiors, but had donors cover the cost of that. When we moved into that building, it was in October of 2000. Yeah, it was October 2000, as I had just left an architecture ﬁrm I was with that morning. Well, not that morning, but earlier that month. Why did you ask me about the new space? Dennis Neill: What are your fond memories of being in that space? Oh, well, maybe not just all fond. I mean, I remember it being very smoky because of the... Greg Gatewood: The only place it was next to a bar. A lesbian bar. Dennis Neill Was it TNT's? Greg Gatewood: Was it TNT's? Yeah, I think it was TNT's. I forgot about that. Dennis Neill: The other thing I remember is, one, we had a very active movie night where we'd show the movies and have a decent number of people coming in. Dennis Neill: And then, didn't Open Arms kind of get engaged? Greg Gatewood: Oh, yeah, I forgot. Dennis Neill: Did they start there? Greg Gatewood: They did start there. Yeah, because, well, that place. We moved there in October of 2000. Yeah, Open Arms got involved. Ken had an office over there, and they had a youth group. It was a youth group. They started in there, in that area over on the left, on the right side. Whatever direction that was. 22 �Yeah, there were movie nights. We had the Pride store. We had the quarterly or we had membership meetings every month, I think, so we had to try to have a program. But on that building in particular, in that space, there was one vivid memory is Election Day 2000 because I'd gone down to the center to do some stuff. I can't remember. It was snowing. It was a cold day in 2000 on Election Day. I'd gone to the center. I was doing something, and I got a call. This man had called, and he had driven all night from, I think, Wisconsin somewhere. He had some friends from ORU, and he'd come out as gay to his wife, and he had friends in ORU. He knew he could stay with them. His little car was packed to the brim with everything he had. So he called the center. We were closed because it was in the morning. I said, well, come on down. Come to the center. We have a library. He asked about books and stuff. So he came to the library or came to the center, and he read a couple books while there, took two or three more home, and lent them out. I think we went to lunch because it was Election Day, and I had things to do. And, of course, it was Election Day when Bush 2 got elected. But I remember when he came in, he spent probably four hours total at the center. He had spent all afternoon. When he left, he's like, well, you have no idea how much this helped. He's like, I didn't know where to go. I didn't know what to do. He looked in the phone book, found the gay hotline or whatever it was. We were what that point we were called because, yeah, I forgot about that. When we moved into that place, I was quite intimate, and I was president at that point, that it would be called the Tulsa Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, and Community Center, and it was all being put out there, spelled out. That was also being trimmed. You wanted to spell it out, which we did. So he may have found that in the phone book at that point. But, yeah, he came in. He's like, these books and just being able to come here and talk. We talked for a while, too. He's like, it's just, I don't know what I would have done. It was kind of alluring to a bad thing. But that was in November 2000. We had just moved. We had been there a month. So probably not even a month. Dennis Neill: I noticed something you put in your bio about something that also happened that was important in 1999. If I've read this right, that's where you ﬁrst met Kerry. Greg Gatewood: Oh, yes. Dennis Neill: Can you talk about that a little bit? Greg Gatewood: Yeah, well, yeah, Kerry, we met. Well, we disagreed on this last time I was writing that. I was like, was it a board meeting? Or, because he joined the board in 1999. 23 �Yeah, when he joined the board, we met. Or a membership meeting or a board meeting, we met in 1999. We started in 1999. We actually, now that I think about it, before we were officially dating, we went to Starbucks at 51st and Harvard because we were on the board. And we had a board retreat with Mitch. And he told us about the SWOT analysis. This is a new thing for all of us. So being like Kerry and I went to Starbucks to write the mission statement. Because there were purposes and stuff, but there was not really, to our knowledge, we couldn't ﬁnd it anywhere, a written mission statement. So at our little board retreat, Kerry was there and we had a little thing, a practice you said, write down something emotional or something, I can't remember what it was, mine was adult living in fear, a teenager near suicide. Greg Gatewood: And that's, and Kerry, I can't remember what he'd written down, but we were chosen to, well it's like, why don't you all take the stuff that everyone suggested and compose some type of statement, mission statement. And that's where, at that point, Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, works for equality, through et cetera. And that's, because at that point it was through, we listed all that, but the adult living in fear, teenager near suicide was kind of an emotional case statement where we started from. Greg Gatewood: But Kerry and I, that's when we met, was either a membership meeting or a board meeting, and got together, we're told, start writing the case, or the mission statement. And then we were dating before Pride, I think. Yeah. Dennis Neill: The 1999 Pride. Greg Gatewood: Before 1999 Pride, yeah, because when we came around the corner that ﬁrst time, I remember him sitting over there, it's weird that I remember certain things at that ﬁrst Pride. Dennis Neill: And then did he succeed you as president? Greg Gatewood: Yeah, I was president in half of 1999, 2000, he became president in 2001. Dennis Neill: And then do you remember, would next be, was it Mark or Laura? Greg Gatewood: Next was... Greg Gatewood: Dee Beasley. Dennis Neill: Okay. Greg Gatewood: For a brief time. For a brief time. And then Brent Ortolani. 24 �Dennis Neill: Okay, right. Greg Gatewood: Brent Ortolani took over from Dee. Dennis Neill: So in 1999, you and Kerry got together, so you've been together all these years. Greg Gatewood: Ever since, ever since. Dennis Neill: And you're married, is that correct? Greg Gatewood: We are married. Dennis Neill: Tell us a little bit about your ceremony, what made you decide to get married? Greg Gatewood: Our ceremony? Our ceremony was in the hallway of the courthouse. It was very simple, very, and we're done. So that was pretty much it. Dennis Neill: And what year was this? Greg Gatewood: 2018. Dennis Neill: Okay. Greg Gatewood: October, I think. Yeah. Greg Gatewood: It's either 10th or 11th. I think it's the 10th because we were getting ready to go to Europe the next week. So, but that was kind of a trip. Dennis Neill: So I think you stayed involved, right? Even after you stepped down as president, stayed involved with... Greg Gatewood: Oh, good lord, yeah. I was president in 2000, but, well, also in 2000, the big thing, well, I mentioned we got kicked out in, well, we moved in 2000 to the 41st, or 21st and Memorial location. Before we got kicked out, or before we moved, we actually started the capital campaign, because, well, I consider, I don't know if that was 1999 or 2000. It had to have been 2000. It was 2000. Dennis Neill: So that's when the Brady Mansion thing was, I think. Greg Gatewood: No, that was 2001. Dennis Neill: Oh, 2001. 25 �Greg Gatewood: That was February 2001. But before that, there was what I call the Marty Party at Martin Newman's. And this is when we were focused, still primarily focused on Circle Center as the gay community center, because we had toured that at one point. Had so many possibilities. But yeah, we had what I've referred to as the Marty Party, which was at Martin Newman's house. And that's when we presented, we need to do this, you were probably there. That's where we picked up Sue and Marcy, and some other people, a lot of other people, on the capital campaign. Greg Gatewood: That's when we officially started the capital campaign. Dennis Neill: So who do you think originated the concept of the Pyramid Project? Both the name and the... Greg Gatewood: Well, we went through some of the names. It seems like in the gay community, but in the larger community as a whole, naming is a very big thing. But yeah, I want to say, when we ﬁrst met, it was the original center at 38th and Peoria. I just got back from that, from Creating Change. So yeah, I got back from... Creating Change is the conference that I went to. I think it was Oakland at the time. I've just gotten back, so yeah, it was in late 2000, or early, after Pride, but before October 2000, was probably when the capital campaign started, I think. It started there in the original center, and then we moved to the 21st and Memorial Center. Dennis Neill: So did the name kind of come up through committee, or did someone…? Greg Gatewood: Oh, the Pyramid Project, I think, yeah, it must have come up through committee, because there were different names that were discussed and stuff, and honestly, I don't remember at all who speciﬁcally came up with the name. I remember when we ﬁrst thought of this as, yeah, I want to say, well, Sue and Marcy got re-involved from the very beginning of that, because she was, Sue was chair. I think we, yeah, she was chair. She became chair in 2000, when we ﬁrst started, I think. Greg Gatewood: So they were big drivers of that, of the name and everything, I think, because to be honest, there was probably just a little bit of hesitation, because pyramid schemes, that was the ﬁrst thing. I know there was a hesitation because of that name, but it overall became a winner, I think. I do remember on a trip to Vegas, one time we were thought, we need to do, because we'd been doing research on this capital campaign. You know, you had donors, and you had to recognize your donors, and you needed all this stuff, and someone had just taken a trip to Vegas, so they thought, we need to get little pyramids. They sell them at Luxor, and we can have it in people's names. That was the topic that was clear. It was gonna be a donor gift, but it was kind of squished. 26 �Dennis Neill: So then, TOHR moved to a location near 41st and Yale. Were you involved in that transition? Greg Gatewood: Well, that's right, I forgot about that. 21st and Memorial, we were there for what, from 2000 to 2003, I think. 2003, yeah, as a side note on that, when I signed the lease on as president, you sign the lease, the lease typically, because I was so nervous that you're addressing. At one point, I was really nervous. You're personally, ﬁnancially responsible for that lease as the signer. Obviously, you're the lease signer. That is the reason we had the Gill Outgiving and Community Foundation Seminars. It was because we found that grant, and I wrote the grant for the outgiving and community thing. We had the seminars in 2001, and I think that's the reason we bought this building, was because of the success of the Pyramid Project, and the tactics that were utilized in that were learned through outgiving and community seminars that we, it was through the Gill Foundation. As a note, yeah, I forgot all about that. That was at the center of 21st Memorial. We were outgiving and community program. We were selected through a grant process through the Gill Foundation. We held seminars, development seminars every month, at least half, as part of the stipulation of the grant, at least half of the people that came there had to be from non-gay organizations. So, that's where we got involved with the MET, Red Cross, and various other organizations. So, that's how we made some inroads to those organizations. And, of course, the Pyramid Project learned how to raise money, as so did everyone else. That was, every month was in 2000, I forget all about. I keep forgetting about Gill Outgiving and community [Tulsa Community Foundation], but I credit that as why the Pyramid Project was successful. Dennis Neill: So, was the Pyramid Project your main focus after you stepped down as being the president until what time? Greg Gatewood: I had certainly helped with the Pyramid Project after I stepped down as president. I was probably more, I was always, I was deﬁnitely focused on pride. I've always been focused on pride, because I was kind of, I was very involved with that. I, well, what was it, what was 2001, 2002, 2003. There was, what we did, what was going on at the center at 21st and Memorial at that time? Dennis Neill: Seemed like Kerry and I were kind of running those movie nights. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, the movie nights, we started the history, we started the history project in 2003. That started at that center. That's when we had that ﬁrst dinner. At All Souls, we had the history dinner. Who was the speaker of that? 27 �Dennis Neill: Oh, one was at Lee Badgett or something like that. We had two, we did one one year and then followed it the next year. And then Laura kind of got so involved at OSU, things kind of dropped off, although she did a lot of interviews that we're catching up on right now. So you were involved in Pride. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, I did a lot of Pride stuff. I did a lot of event stuff and a bit of some development. Dennis Neill: So do you remember when you rolled off of the board then? What year? Greg Gatewood: 2000, 2001, yeah, 2001, 2001 was Kerry's president and 2002 was Brent, that was, Pride became an emergency situation in 2002. Dennis Neill: Why do you say that? Greg Gatewood: We'd lost the coordinator for Pride and president of the organization. Dennis Neill: Was that Dee? Greg Gatewood: Yeah. And so Brent became president and I stepped in as Pride coordinator and started slashing. Our ﬁrst meeting, our ﬁrst meeting, because at that, oh, I forgot about that. In 2000, instead of just having the parade and the festival, we thought, well, why not have fewer things? We expanded it to a week, an entire week. All days, every day of Pride and that was a lot. I'll say that. In 2001, I think we started dropping it back, bringing it back, but what was I talking about then? Dennis Neill: Oh, we were kind of talking about you're involved with Pride and then we kind of get to, we moved to the new center. And then I think, correct me if I'm wrong, it seems like we hired our ﬁrst executive director, Michael Christopher. Greg Gatewood: That was in 2004, had to have been in 2004. Dennis Neill: Okay, and after he left, do you remember when you started it and how did it come about that you became the executive director? I remember that. Yeah, I took a little break in 2004 because it was needed. And then I became, let's see, what was going on? 30 Days, which was a TV show on MTV, I think, I don't know what channel it's on. Tulsa was in the hunt, or the producer of 30 Days had come to Tulsa to interview people to be on the show, 30 Days, where you could have a gay man and a straight man live together for 30 days. And it was the guy that did the McDonald's, the 30 McDonald's for 30 Days. I think he may have passed away by now. What was his name? 28 �He did a McDonald's, only had McDonald's for 30 days. He'd do something for 30 days and see the results. It was a show, but he came and they were interviewing people. I don't know, I met them at the center. Before, I was (?) by any means. They were here in the winter, early 2005. And because we went to numerous bars and interviewed people, I don't know if they found anybody. They'd ask me, but I wouldn't have been able to be there. I was, that was in early 2005. That's when I started, I started, yeah. Because y'all, something, had Michael left or something? Dennis Neill: Yeah. Greg Gatewood: And I'd come, I don't know why, I'd start helping with that 30 Days thing. And then. Maybe an ED at that point. I can't guess. That's hard to remember. That was 20 years ago. Dennis Neill: So did you apply for the position? Greg Gatewood: Yeah, when the new ED position, I applied. Dennis Neill: Do you remember who was on the interview? Greg Gatewood: I remember talking to, I think it was Laura, Mark. Were you there? You were there. Dennis Neill: Might have been. I was on the board until October of 2005. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, so you were there. Because I remember you were in the back room, I interviewed you. I was in the back room, I think. Mark, you, I can see. Atkinson, the ﬁrst. Yeah, there you are. Yeah. But that was, that center, the 21st. The 41st in Peoria. No, the 41st in Yale. Y'all were knocking down, y'all just knocked down a wall, I think, to create a bigger room, conference room, maybe. Because the center relocated from 21st Memorial to 41st in Yale. I was on my sabbatical. I was on a break. So I wasn't there when everyone moved. I wasn't there for that move, fortunately for me. Dennis Neill: So what do you remember about our time there at 41st and Yale, kind of the programs, activities, thoughts? For example, I know that we got our ﬁrst grant for the Cyber Center. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, that's when David Bohnett’s Cyber Center opened up, which I noticed is kind of different these days. Well, I just think it's not utilized. I mean, why? 29 �Dennis Neill: Well, that, and they moved everything for that Fringe Festival, and so they got a new step back, but we're working on it. That was a big arts thing we did in September here that took over our building. But we are working with Bohnett right now to kind of ﬁgure out the path forward. Greg Gatewood: Okay, because I remember the day of Bohnett’s Cyber Center, because when it ﬁrst opened, you said, at the 41st and Yale location. About 10, whether 8, 10 computers, something like that, maybe. Dennis Neill: I think it was 6. I think we've always had 6. Greg Gatewood: No, there were more than that. Dennis Neill: There were more, okay. Greg Gatewood: At one point there were more. I don't know if the grant, unless you remember that. Because when you came in that little room, or that space, there were two rows. We had the Northeast, at one point there was a Northeast Active Primetimes. They came and did classes right when it ﬁrst opened. I can't remember the couple's name. Dennis Neill: I do remember that [Richard and Barbara ?]. Greg Gatewood: But they did classes for elderly people on computers. And then, I don't know whether to talk about that or not, but one of the most memorable things about that place was me getting a phone call on a Sunday telling me someone is not allowed to go in that center anymore because of things tied to that cyber center. Dennis Neill: Misuse of the cyber center? Greg Gatewood: Because they used it to look at things… Dennis Neill: Talk to us about the highs and lows of your time as the executive director. Greg Gatewood: Well, highs, I was executive director, okay. Highs, probably one of the highest highs was the day we moved in here. Or not moved in here, we didn't move in here, but we raised the ﬂag here. I'll never forget that day. It was cold, I think it was in November 2005, probably. Because we bought it in October. Dennis Neill: September. So it was real shortly after that. Greg Gatewood: It was shortly after. But we didn't remodel or anything. We had not occupied it. But it was not really long after. Because, again, I got back from training at Creating Change again because I remember I bought new clothes in San Francisco. But we 30 �raised the ﬂag up here. We raised the ﬂag. That was a really high day. We raised the pride ﬂag here. I thought it was a good day. It was a really good day. I remember you were here. Greg Gray was here. I don't know why I remember talking to you all right in hat room out there, because my suntan was running, my fake suntan, I'd put on fake suntan to look good. I was sweating and my tan was running down the back of my neck, I think. But that was a really good day. And the ﬁrst event we ever had. Dennis Neill: Which was? Greg Gatewood: Was here in the building. The center was not officially opened. It was the, so it would have been in 2006. It was in the events center. It was the art show for Pride. But you had entered from the garage door. I don't know if it's still there. Is this the garage door that faced the alley? Dennis Neill: Yes. Greg Gatewood: That's how you entered from that way and came in. That was the ﬁrst official event we ever had here. Dennis Neill: Now I remember Sue and Marcy organizing the Pyramid fundraiser here. Greg Gatewood: Oh yeah. We had a trolley thing. We came from someone's house here one time. Dennis Neill: Yeah. We had that big dinner here and it seemed like we raised… Greg Gatewood: Oh yeah. I forgot about that. The big dinner. Oh yeah, that dinner. I was the ED. That was Sue and Marcy because Kerry and I attended as donors. Dennis Neill: That was probably 06 also. Greg Gatewood: That had to have been 06, I think. Dennis Neill: You were here as the ED for the dedication, February 12th of 07. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, I was here the day we opened. That was a very good day. I'll never forget. Yeah, that's a really good day. I'll never forget the song. I have that song downloaded on my iTunes. Dennis Neill: What was it? 31 �Greg Gatewood: It's one of my funeral songs. It's a long story. “What Have You Done.” They played it on the video for the Pyramid Project at the very end. What Have You Done Today To Make Me Feel Proud. I can't remember the artist's name. I love the song. But that song was played a lot at that gathering downstairs. Downstairs, wherever we are. Dennis Neill: I remember that. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, that was the day we opened. Was it February? Dennis Neill: It was February. Greg Gatewood: Oh, we moved in before… Dennis Neill: It was right before that Valentine's. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you mentioned Valentine's. You mentioned the, what's it called now, the Tate Mansion. Dennis Neill: Oh, yeah. Greg Gatewood: Party, the ﬁrst Wild Hearts Ball. Dennis Neill: Oh, yeah, uh-huh. Dennis Neill: When did you leave as executive director, do you recall? Greg Gatewood: June of 2007. Dennis Neill: June of 2007, right. Greg Gatewood: June 14th, 2007, Flag Day. Dennis Neill: Okay, so from the time that you left the architectural ﬁrm, what year was your last gig with the architectural ﬁrm? Greg Gatewood: Oh, with the architectural ﬁrm. Oh, I left in 2000. Dennis Neill: So have you been involved in architectural work since then? Greg Gatewood: Not with ﬁrms. Dennis Neill: Okay. 32 �Greg Gatewood: Not with ﬁrms. I've done work on my own. I do work by myself. I do mostly residential stuff. Commercial, I love commercial. Dennis Neill: So tell us a little bit about your involvement with TOHR after you left as executive director. You've got such an interesting relationship with Nancy MacDonald that we really want you to cover as much of that interaction and work with PFLAG and Nancy as you want to share. Greg Gatewood: Sure. Well, you mentioned I left OkEq on June 14, 2007. I'll be honest, it wasn't good for me anyway. Hopefully it wasn't good for others. But, yeah, it was a tough time for myself. Real tough for a number of reasons. I know I wasn't involved with any more way, shape, or form until 2000. What, 20 [2020]? It was the 40th anniversary. We were going to do something. It was right before. I think it was 2019. Dennis Neill: Is that when you started helping me up here? Greg Gatewood: I think that because that had to have been there. Because we were getting ready. The gala was going to be the 40th Gala. And, of course, then COVID hit. And then now the gala. I think that's what made it 2019. Dennis Neill: I started working in 2019 to get this thing going. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, so, yeah. Nancy, I remember the ﬁrst time, of course Nancy McDonald was a former national PFLAG president from Tulsa here. I remember the ﬁrst, well not the ﬁrst time I met her. At the center, I'm sure it was 1998 or 99. Was it 98? 99. We named this, the Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library after her. That was when, I probably met her beforehand, but Chastity Bono came to town for a PFLAG dinner. And that was, yeah, we were at the other center, the original center when that came to town. And Chastity, what's her name now? What's his name now? Dennis Neill: Chas. Greg Gatewood: Chas. Yeah. Came to dinner, we had an event at the center, at the original center, and it's named, there's a picture somewhere. And that's one of the ﬁrst times I met Nancy. I met Nancy back in the 90s. And when we, that was in 99, because in 99 was also the year we had that, the gala. The Barney Frank Gala. First gala. And I remember, we talked, we were talking to her, I remember her coming up to the center, yeah, and helping Leanne do stuff and stuff. And that's when I ﬁrst, that's probably when I ﬁrst met her. I mean, I met her, maybe met her, I don't know, back in the early 90s when you were having the, you know, the Tulsa, the city of Tulsa stuff. And obviously through PFLAG, you know, read about her. But we became, Nancy and I became friends after I, she was of course 33 �PFLAG president the entire time I was involved. And after I left, we started having, we'd have lunch once a month or so, we started having lunch, just talk. Because we, she grew up in Nebraska, in rural Nebraska, farm country. I grew up in rural Oklahoma. Not necessarily farm. And so we could talk farming for sure. We could talk farming. And we could also talk, you know, LGBT stuff too. So yeah, we did, we did, we'd go to lunch, we'd go to lunch usually once, at least once a month, always at a Mexican place. Because Joe didn't like Mexican. And so she only ate Mexican when we ate Mexican. That's also the only time I eat Mexican because Kerry doesn't like Mexican. So now I don't eat Mexican. Dennis Neill: Call me up sometime, I'll go out with you. Greg Gatewood: So now I just don't, so now I don't eat Mexican. When did Oklahoma, voted on the marriage, ban marriage. When did we do that? I remember, have you ever, that was early 2000? Dennis Neill: Like 04, 06. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, something might be 04 maybe? Dennis Neill: Might have been. Greg Gatewood: Because we were coming, Nancy and I were coming back from Stillwater, she gave a talk or something at the Stillwater gay group, whatever it was called, down in OSU. We were coming back and we were talking about how it's going to be, you know, obviously we're going to lose, but yeah, but Nancy was an incredible lady in my book. Yeah, we, after I left, we, I, she always said, if I ever wrote a book of the stories she has, I want a share of that book. Dennis Neill: Speaking of that, you know, when she passed and I was visiting with Morva a little bit as they prepared for her service, the thing I failed to follow up on were her recorda which she had suggested that she would donate to our archives. So we never got that closure on that. Are you in touch at all with any of the family? Or do you know where Joe is these days? Greg Gatewood: I was thinking about Joe the other day, because I didn't know if he was still at Montereau, or had moved in with one of the sons or something. I'd think Jason if it was, but I haven't. I saw something on social media that Jason had posted about Joe, but this is probably a few months ago. So I was wondering about Joe the other day, and see if he is doing all right, because I knew he'd had health issues. And so, yeah. 34 �Dennis Neill: How about with regard to Nancy, what's kind of the most memorable moment that you remember working with Nancy on one of her wonderful causes? Greg Gatewood: I don't have a thing up my sleeve. Probably one of the probably, oh my, I'd say Pride. One of the most memorable moments was at Pride 2007, probably. Yeah, I just conﬁded in her some stuff that something happened, and I was like, good God, what's going to happen? And she just said, she, I can't say what she said, but it was so encouraging that it just made you feel better. Just, it was, because I was really worried about something. And she's like, well, you're not that type of person at all. And she just made you feel better. Just, and just, it was, but, yeah. That was probably during the Pride of 2007. Dennis Neill: She was the mother for all of us. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, she was. I... mother. Yeah, she was the mother of a lot of gay guys here in Tulsa. Dennis Neill: I always considered her my lifetime mentor. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, yeah, and yeah, and yeah, she was, yeah, she was the mother you could talk to with you. You couldn't talk to your mother, then you talk to Nancy. Greg Gatewood: There was one other thing that came to mind that is important to the history of OkEq. In 1998, Matthew Shepard died. So I don't know why I'm getting emotional. Oh, so anyway, we're at the center. This young man comes in, young, probably in his early 20s, maybe at that old. He's like, what are you all going to do? Are you going to do something for Matthew Shepard? He had just been attacked. He wasn't actually dead yet. And it had been a long, I don't remember what was going on. But basically, me and Rick and this kid decided we needed to do something. Steve, we was, you know, Steve was busy with his, I think, a new boyfriend. So we started getting this little, we need to do something. So we had on this, where was it, the library in downtown. We ended up having the attorney general give a proclamation. There, Dan was, Drew Edmondson did a proclamation from the state of Oklahoma from the attorney general. Council Oak sang. And I remember, we didn't expect that many people to be there, because it was very spur of the moment. Me and Rick and that young man went to bars. That's how, there was no internet. We didn't do the internet thing. And so we went to bars and with little ﬂyers. And here, everyone needs to come. This is happening. And we had a good service. But I remember people literally walked up from Renegades, which was 13th, 16th and Main, something like that. They walked up to the Civic Center Plaza. We probably 35 �had 300 people there, I would think. And that was important for OkEq, because one, the more it recognized the importance… Matthew Shepherd an important bit in the history of the whole community. It also brought a lot. We got a lot. We were on the front page the next day. Because I was on the front page the next day. Because we lit candles. We had a lighting candle ceremony and the council folks sang. So we got a lot of recognition for that. Dennis Neill: Did you do the same in helping Nancy on the sweep away the hate? Greg Gatewood: I was not involved with that. I think, after my time there. I know they did the sweep, but that was sweeps of hate. I can't remember. Was that for the Phelps thing? Dennis Neill: Yeah, the Phelps was boycotting the Sand Springs High School because, I don't know who it was, a student that was involved…[2004 Westbro Baptist Church protested Michale Shakleford, 17 year-old high school student]. Greg Gatewood: Oh, one of the students out there. Yeah, the Phelps people, they protested the ﬁrst parade, all the stuff that went through that. I didn't chase them out of town. I followed them out of town. In 2000, just to make sure they left town, after they protested the young guy's graduation, because he had started at GSA. I followed him out of town. That 1998 thing was just important to bring up. Dennis Neill: Any other thoughts or memories you want to share as we kind of conclude our interview? Greg Gatewood: Well, when I think about the history of OkEq, one, pride. I think about pride. I think about this building, the people, mostly the people. Because I've met a lot of friends. I've met my husband, obviously. I probably should mention that. I've met a lot of friends, obviously, through the community center. It's hard to believe it's been 20 years now. No, 30 years. Good God, 30 years. It has been 30 years, hasn't it? Still not as many as other people, but yeah, it has been. Dennis Neill: Well, we've all had our ups and downs with this organization. Greg Gatewood: Yeah, I had a down. Dennis Neill: I understand. But we appreciate so much you sharing your time with us and letting others know about the important history that you've been sharing with us. Greg Gatewood: There's a lot. If I rack my brain or think of different things, I could tell you stories. Some are good. Some are really good. Some are bad. Some should not ever be told. But if you want I could write some. I could write down. I write good, too. 36 �Dennis Neill: We'd love to add whatever you'd like to to the ﬁle and the transcript. That'd be great. Yeah, absolutely. Anything you feel comfortable. Because it's been so interesting going through these oral histories and reading all those that Laura did. It really just brings back so many memories to me. Greg Gatewood: Like the Matthew Shepard thing. That's something that is kind of a blip. Well, not a blip. That really did, I think, help that event. That event and the spontaneity of it. It was less than a week. And it was no push email, mass email, or social media. It was the same for all prides. For the ﬁrst prides until mid-2000 or 2000. We went to every bar. Every Friday and Saturday night. And there were seven or eight bars in town then. We went to every bar on Friday and Saturday night. And I didn't think of it until later. I'm the person that I hated that would put stuff on your windshield. Can I come out after or something? We would paper every car in every parking lot in every bar and close by parking lots for pride. Here's your pride schedule. And we'd do that every Friday and Saturday night for three or four months before pride. Dennis Neill: Well, Greg, thanks again for sharing your story. And please feel free to write down some of the thoughts that we can share with the audience. Greg Gatewood: Sometimes I write better than I talk. Dennis Neill: Thank you. Greg Gatewood: Thank you. 37 �More Memorable Moments (by Greg Gatewood) June 2026 An Unsung Hero I ﬁrst volunteered with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) in 1996. I do not recall who ‘showed me the ropes’ of answering the helpline when the operations of TOHR were located at 41st and Harvard. That initial time of volunteering for TOHR was fairly short-lived due to a number of factors. However, I deﬁnitely recall the ﬁrst person I met when beginning to volunteer again at the original “Pride Center” in 1997. That ﬁrst person was Steve Horn. Steve was the volunteer coordinator, as well as 1st Vice-President, I believe, at that time. Steve’s dedication to the purposes and mission of TOHR deﬁnitely had an impact on me. Steve became President while I became an at-large member of the board in 1998. Major and impactful decisions were not only made, but also accomplished, for TOHR and the Tulsa Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender (LGBT) community in the short 1.5 years under Steve’s leadership and dedication. Beginning in January 1998 through June 1999, Steve was at the Center nearly every day leading the movement of working for equality for the Tulsa LGBT community. He would normally show up at the Center before 6 pm (after a full day of work at his actual ‘work’ office), open the Center, work for a solid 4 hours, welcome and talk to others while doing that work, close the Center at 10 pm, and then ﬁnally go home. That was repeated Monday thru Friday for the next 1.5 years. Weekends brought more time to work for the community. So, 6 to 8 hours on Saturdays and 4 hours on Sundays were normal. I know Steve was there all that time, because I was there with him. I sincerely believe the foundation for the future success of TOHR was set in 1998 and 1999 under Steve Horn’s leadership and dedication. HOPE (Health Outreach, Prevention, and Education) HOPE, initially a program of TOHR, was split-off to become a separate non-proﬁt in early 1998. This was an incredibly hard and difficult decision for all members of the Board of Directors as well as for the membership of OkEq (all decisions were voted upon by the membership at that time). However, due to the severe consequences the State of Oklahoma would deﬁnitely have taken against TOHR and HOPE, aka the complete dismantling of both organizations by the State of Oklahoma, we knew it was vitally necessary. The very questionable actions made by previous administrations and individuals forced this action to occur in order to ensure the survival of both TOHR and 38 �HOPE. Today, both organizations continue to serve the LGBT community and general community in their own capacities. THE anonymous gift of 1998 The necessary split of HOPE from TOHR resulted in multiple positives for both organizations. However, it did come with a few setbacks. The primary sources of funding for TOHR after the split were memberships, a few but regular donations, and proﬁt from the newly acquired and expanded Pride Store. As the end of the 1998 approached, and despite very careful budgeting with strict adherence to that budget, the serious question of “how we will pay rent” and “will we have to close the doors” was a real threat. An anonymous gift, an amount to cover rent though the end of year plus a bit more, was then delivered to the TOHR office in the newly renamed “Tulsa Gay Community Services Center.” That anonymous gift kept the doors open in 1998 and helped set the course for success in 1999. Approximately 3 years later, I ﬁnally learned who was that anonymous donor. Tulsa Pride Tulsa Pride ’99 featured the 1st Tulsa LGBT Pride Parade. However, there were several important earlier moments that led to that 1st Tulsa LGBT Pride Parade in 1999. Planning for Pride ’99 began before Pride ’98 even happened. When the then Tulsa Chief of Police asked us “why aren’t you having a parade” while discussing the sidewalk march of ’98, we developed a plan. Steve Horn, Rick Martin, and I decided then and there to have Tulsa’s 1st Pride Parade in 1999. However, Pride ’98 was in two short weeks and we had goals to accomplish, not to mention pulling off the upcoming celebration. A major and very important component for us was higher visibility and to grow attendance, so we relocated Pride ’98 to Veterans Park (now Dreamkeepers Park) and moved the date to the second Saturday of June (to avoid Father’s Day weekend). One of my more memorable moments of Pride ’98 is of Rick Martin and me deciding to rent a trailer the day before the Picnic to use as the stage. This was great as it elevated the entertainers above the crowd. The entertainers soon discovered the gaps between the wooden ﬂoor of the trailer were just wide enough to trap a high heel - just ask lead entertainer Kris Kohl : ) The struggle to make the 1st Tulsa LGBT Pride Parade actually happen was very real. Due to the Tulsa City Council’s intention to deny any permit for the 1st Tulsa Pride Parade as they had delayed the vote twice - we made plans. Those plans included having a lawsuit written and prepared to be ﬁled the next day in the event of any denial of any permit. We were 39 �deﬁnitely ready. The City of Tulsa attorney had informed the Tulsa City Council that a denial of the parade permit would not only bring consequences, it was also highly illegal. Only due to the illegality and potential lawsuits did the Tulsa City Council vote to approve the parade permit. A few of us attended the Tulsa City Council when they were again scheduled to vote on the parade permit. Immediately prior to voting to grant the permit, we were treated ﬁrsthand to full-on bigotry through mini-sermons, condemnation, and outright hate-ﬁlled statements from nearly all of the then Tulsa City Council members. The ‘controversy’ surrounding the parade permit vote turned out to be quite good. The antics of the Tulsa City Council caught the attention of the Kansas-based Westboro Baptist Church (WBC). The condemnation by the Tulsa City Council and resulting protests by the WBC brought even more free press coverage. Knowledge of and interest in Tulsa’s 1st Pride Parade skyrocketed. The result was a much larger attendance and participation than anticipated. I so remember riding the leading ﬂoat with Steve and Phillip. As we rounded the corner at 21st and Boulder and saw the thousands of people cheering loudly, I remember initially thinking, ”what have we done?” only to immediately realize “damn, we have succeeded”. I will never forget that feeling of joy and pride. I was fortunate to be the host representative of TOHR for US Representative and Grand Marshal of the 1st Tulsa Pride Parade, the Honorable Barney Frank, during Tulsa Pride 1999. ‘Host’ simply meant that everywhere Barney went, I was there with him. B.J. Kissinger, the host representative of the Tulsa County Democratic Party, and I were treated to some amazing stories of the inner-workings of the US House of Representatives, why Barney really wanted to come to Tulsa, and his new boyfriend’s nervousness of attending an upcoming dinner with President Bill Clinton at the White House among additional stories and anecdotes. A few things deﬁnitely stand out during that memorable weekend: 1) Barney would not eat dinner at “An Evening with Barney Frank,” the inaugural Equality Gala, until after he spoke. Why? He did not want to risk having any food stuck in his teeth while speaking. 2) Barney jumped right in to play volleyball with attendees at the Tulsa Pride Festival. He thoroughly enjoyed that time as he was smiling and laughing, commenting after a game or two “there’s some good athletes in Tulsa.” 3) The entire crowd at the Pride Festival sat down on the grass and listened to Barney as he spoke from the stage. That moment of watching thousands listen intently to him was one of was one of the most memorable and rewarding of being heavily involved with Tulsa Pride for over a decade. Note: There should be (or at least there was) a video of the entire 1st Tulsa Pride Parade in the History Archives of OkEq. That video was taken from atop the old (now demolished) RR Bridge spanning Riverside Drive near 31st and Riverside. 40 �The success of the events of 1999 led to major expansion in 2000. Primarily a one-day event that contained the Pride Parade, the Pride Festival, and the Gala all on the same day in 1999 became an over a week-long celebration in 2000. Please refer to “Diversity Celebration 2000” in the historical collections for a complete schedule. 9 events in 8 days I think. In fact, I took a week of vacation off of my profession (Architecture) to help ensure the success of that week. Kerry Lewis, my now husband, did the same from his profession as an Attorney. The Grand Marshalls of the Pride Parade and featured speakers at the Gala and Festival were Dr. Grethe Cammermeyer and Greg Louganis. Dr. Cammermeyer inspired the crowd when she spoke eloquently at the Gala of her time with the US Armed Forces and forced departure. The next day, she led the parade with great pride. She again spoke eloquently from the stage during the Festival and greeted many attendees throughout the afternoon. Greg Louganis was the exact opposite. He demanded special treatment at the Gala while speaking only of himself. He left the parade early, breaking his contract, to feed his dog and to take a nap. He then badmouthed Tulsa the following year when he was in Denver. Soulforce in Oklahoma, a LGBT organization based on the Dr. Martin Luther King principles of non-violence, brought in Rev. Mel While to further reach all in the community. Rev. While was a former ghostwriter for Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, and Pat Robertson before coming out as a gay man. He then became a leading LGBT+ activist and inspirational speaker. Rev. White spoke to a packed house at the Tulsa PAC worship service and inspired more through workshops. Note: Rev. While is the father of Mike White, an out gay man and writer / director of the HBO hit-show “White Lotus,” The success of the Tulsa Pride celebrations of 1999 and 2000 through the use of wellknown names and activists (as planned) allowed us to focus on important issues such as Hate Crimes in 2001. The Grand Marshalls of the parade and featured speakers at the Gala and Festival were parents of recent hate crime victims. Those three (3) parents, ___, ___, and ___ reminded all in attendance at the various events to double-down to work for equality. Their remarks at both the Gala and Festival were some of the most emotional I’ve ever heard. I hope their words continue to have an impact and are still felt today throughout the Tulsa LGBT and allied community. My involvement with Tulsa Pride unfortunately ended in 2007. 2000 was an extremely busy and productive year for TOHR. A few highlights: 1. I was President of the Board of Directors (that actually began in July 1999 with Steve’s relocation to Denver, CO). 41 �2. The Pyramid Project, the successful Capital Campaign of TOHR, began in 2000. Sue Welch became chair while I as President became co-chair (a stipulation of then bylaws that the President of the Board was a co-chair on all committees). 3. “Diversity Celebration 2000,” aka Tulsa Pride, expanded to over a week+ series of very successful events. 4. Members of the LGBT and allied community protested at the Boy Scouts headquarters in Brookside in Midtown Tulsa. 5. The “Tulsa Gay Community Services Center,” the name adopted in 1998 and formerly known as the Pride Center, relocated to 21st and Memorial and was subsequently renamed the Tulsa Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender Community Center 6. The Board of Directors welcomed its ﬁrst member of the Transgender community. 7. I was the Oklahoma coordinator for the 2000 March on Washington (see more information below). 8. Kerry and I attended our ﬁrst “Creating Change” conference in Oakland, CA. The information gleaned and learned at the conference helped ‘set the stage’ for the future of TOHR. 9. We planned and executed a successful “kettle protest” of the Salvation Army. The Salvation Army did not (do not?) like members of the LGBT community. The “kettle protest” involved putting a protest note in lieu of money in the Salvation Army kettles. 10. TOHR became the recipient of the “OutGiving InCommunity” grant (see more information below). In 2000, I wrote the grant that bought the Denver-based Gill Foundation to the Tulsa community. OutGiving InCommunity was a series of fundraising and organizational workshops and teachings for local non-proﬁts and individuals held monthly during 2001. A requirement of those workshops was that 50% of all attendees were to be representatives of non-LGBT organizations. This requirement strengthened the fundraising techniques of various organizations and individuals while also strengthening and developing important relationships. I ﬁrmly believe those workshops and teachings were THE reason why TOHR was successful in the “Pyramid Project” capital campaign. The Pyramid Project began in 2000 in the original center at 38th/Peoria in Brookside. The current building housing the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center was purchased in 2005. The purchase of a permanent 42 �building in 5 short years was a tremendous accomplishment for such a small organization. What we learned as a result of the OutGiving Incommunity grant not only laid the foundation for the purchase of a building for ng the permanent Center, but also the impetus why OkEq was awarded a FastTrack grant from the Gill Foundation. Ex: during the 2001 Gala, a direct “ask” was made from the podium utilizing techniques learned from the OutGiving InCommunity workshops. The “ask” was the largest one-night infusion, at that point, of funds to TOHR. The week after Pride I notiﬁed representatives of the Gill Foundation of our success. The result was a multi-thousand dollar operating grant to “FastTrack” the organization towards further success. I also was the statewide coordinator for Oklahoma for the 2000 March on Washington. It was easy to spot and ﬁnd the Oklahoma contingent on the National Mall, as an Oklahoma ﬂag ﬂew high above the tens of thousands of people preparing to march down Constitution Avenue. It was also easy to see and hear us during the march, as we not only carried a banner 10’ above the crowd (we brought ﬂags, banners and PVC on the plane), we also sang “Oklahoma” in unison. Suffice it to say, as we sang the state song and especially as we hit the chorus of “where the wind comes sweeping the plains” – it was a big crowd hit. The march was fun, the rally was great, and the concert at RFK Stadium was amazing. 2001 was another banner year for TOHR. The monthly “OutGiving InCommunity” workshops drew many non-LGBT representatives into the Center. This resulted in strengthened relationships as well as successful fundraising. Kerry Lewis was the President of the Board of Directors throughout 2001. His leadership and dedication brought new faces, new ideas, and further success for the Tulsa LGBT community. By 2005, the Center relocated to the 41st and Yale area. I also became the full-time Executive Director in early 2005. Once again, I hit the ground running. However, prior to that, I was asked to be at the Center to welcome and host the producers of a “30 Days” television show. That show aimed to highlight people learning how to accept each other, through having a heterosexual man live with a gay man for 30 days. We (two producers and I) set up interviews at the Center and in various LGBT nightclubs and bars around town. In the end, the producers asked me to be that gay man living with a heterosexual man for 30 days. However, I was not in the position to do that arrangement at that point and to my knowledge, the show never came to fruition. “Brokeback Mountain” (and the something only one or two people know about to this day). Prior to the national release of the groundbreaking ﬁlm “Brokeback Mountain,” I received a call from a producer of the ﬁlm. Due to the ﬁlms country/western focus and subject matter, as well as because of the success of TOHR, I was asked if Tulsa and TOHR would be 43 �interested in hosting the World Premiere of “Brokeback Mountain.” Discussions ensued with the possibility of such an event happening in Tulsa. However, due to marketing and production decisions and needs, it unfortunately (and obviously) did not come to pass. However, TOHR did celebrate “Brokeback Mountain” in a big way. A free BBQ dinner was held at the Center with the capacity crowd packing every space, including the storage room, in the Center. We then walked or drove together to the ﬁlm’s opening night at the AMC Theatres a few blocks away. We purchased the permanent building housing the Center in 2005. I remember attending an event around the corner on 3rd Street in the newly designated “East Village” prior to touring and purchasing the building. While at that event, I ran into Dennis Neill. We both commented to each other something like “have you seen that building on 4th Street” (of course we both had)…we deﬁnitely need to look into that building.” Obviously, the “bomb factory” was bought and was immediately followed by Sue Welch and her team getting to work on renovations. In the interim, day-to-day operations of the then Center near 41st and Yale continued. Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights was renamed “Oklahomans for Equality” (OkEq) in 2006. (“Equality Oklahoma,” the original choice, had been ‘taken’ a couple weeks earlier by a now defunct organization). This rebranding effort included the new name and a new logo (note: I designed all logos and completed all graphics, newsletter, eNews, etc. prior to the new name and logo) among other necessary items. A couple of memories during that process was at one of the meetings I commented “we really need to get involved with this new thing called Facebook.” I was rebuffed on that suggestion by the new logo designer and the then President of the Board of Directors. A funny thing about that new (and current) logo: it was jokingly referred to as the “Who killed Kenny” (see “Southpark) logo by a friend and donor. The logo can be seen as reﬂecting the mission, however, I can’t forget “Who killed Kenny”… While attending “Creating Change” in San Francisco in 2006, I and the ED of the New York City LGBT Community Center were talking in the lobby of the hotel. During our visit, I was telling him about our recent purchase, ongoing remodel, and planned opening of the new 18,000 square feet Tulsa LGBT Community Center. The result: I joined the Board of Directors of the National Association of LGBT Community Centers. This was a great honor and immediately brought contacts, advice, and important avenues for further success for OkEq. I was reelected to that same board in early 2007 at Creating Change in Kansas City, MO. The future of OkEq seemed so bright. 44 �“Sirius” radio also came calling in 2006. I, through working with the producers of a show on Sirius focused on the LGBT community, set-up a live broadcast of the nationally broadcast show from the Tulsa LGBT Community Center (41st and Yale location). The Center was packed with people to listen and support OkEq and the Center. (Note: I attended an event honoring Nancy McDonald that evening as yet once again I was prevented from on that live, national broadcast). One of the most memorable days of my decade plus of involvement with TOHR / OkEq was the day I raised the Pride ﬂag on the roof of the Dennis R Neill Equality Center. It was a celebration attended by hundreds of the Tulsa LGBT community on a beautiful November day ﬁlled with sunshine. I will never forget that feeling. I will never forget that day. 2007 brought change. We moved into and opened the doors of the newly named Dennis R Neill Equality Center in early 2007. The celebration was unforgettable! “Proud” (a theme song of the “Pyramid Project” and now btw, one of my “funeral” songs) played. I will never forget the people, the music, and the joy we all felt. It was a fantastic day ﬁlled with pride for all in the community. I will never forget that day. Remodeling work continued. Technology work began and continued. I deﬁnitely recall what seemed like the never-ending technology upgrades and installation of new databases that prevented me from actually using my office computer for 3 out of 5 days for 3 months. However, our work continued. Tulsa Pride 2007 was approaching, and now with 2.5 fulltime employees, progress was being accomplished. Two or three weeks before Tulsa Pride 2007, the Board of Directors asked me to develop a 3-year strategic plan. I did. That 3-year strategic plan was greeted and accepted with accolades and thanks as it was a fairly detailed strategic plan ﬁlled with expanded programming plans, fundraising plans and goals, and so much more. (Note: that plan appeared to actually be followed, somewhat to a “t,” and was successfully implemented over the next 5 years despite implementation not being able to begin for approximately 2 years). It was also during this time, one of those most memorable moments occurred. Not long after the Dennis R Neill Equality Center opened, a group of teenagers and young adults began coming into the Center at 3:00 pm (opening time) nearly every day. The David Bohnett CyberCenter (this was in the time before smartphones) and the Sue Welch Great Hall were their hangouts. Over the course of a few weeks of saying ‘hi’, casual conversations in the Center or outside, and just simply welcoming this group of teenagers and young adults, one of the young men asked if he could tell me something. He’d been kicked out his home because he was gay. His new friends that were with him did not know 45 �he was gay, and he didn’t want to tell them - at least not yet. He didn’t want to risk not having any friends. He couldn’t risk it. These young people were all homeless. After this group of young adults had visited a few times, someone surprisingly asked me “why do you even talk to them?” My response was hopefully similar to: ”Yes, a 17 year old young man, who was kicked out of the only home he ever knew for being gay, and who is being forced to ‘come out’ again, is just one of the many reasons the Dennis R Neill Equality Center even exists. I recall telling that brave 17-year old young gay man, that he could ‘come out’ to his friends when he wants and/or when it’s best for him. It was his decision. In addition to utilizing the David Bohnett CyberCenter, he also managed to get a book or two from the Nancy & Joe McDonald Rainbow Library on coming out. I also knew he and his friends frequented Youth Services of Tulsa, just across the bridge, and had a level of safety. He shared his story with me the week before Pride, Unfortunately, I never saw him again due to circumstances. I’ve sometimes wondered: did he make it off the streets…did he come out again…is he alive? Tulsa Pride 2007 came and went. It was yet another successful event despite some hiccups which is normal. By Sunday, June 10th, Pride was over, remodeling and technology upgrades were ﬁnally getting closet to being complete, and the future seemed so bright. We had a plan and the time, the space, the ﬁnancial resources, and the dedication to set that plan into action. I was excited for the future. My last day with Oklahomans for Equality and the Dennis R Neill Equality Center was Wednesday, June 13, 2007. When given the option to “gather my things and immediately leave OR make arrangements to get my things later and immediately leave, I chose the former. I will never forget that day. ----Addendum to the above addendum re: Tulsa Pride “Pride” is very important to me. I am quite proud of the work, growth, and success I and others accomplished over the years regarding “Tulsa Pride” celebrations from 1997 through 2007. Below is my response, in full, I posted on Facebook in June 2024 in response to the announcement OkEq posted on Facebook when it decided to move Tulsa Pride to another month instead of the internationally recognized Pride month of June - because of the weather. I am conﬁdent the “it’s too hot / the weather” was and is an excuse based in ﬁnances. Below is the response I wrote to OkEq (I do not recall the individual who wrote the post I responded to re: moving Tulsa Pride to a month outside the internationally 46 �recognized Pride Month of June. However, this information should be in OkEq Facebook records. ----Thank you for your response, explanation, and for your dedication of time and talents to Tulsa Pride. I know well the hours required to successfully plan, plan, plan, and execute a large-scale event such as Tulsa Pride are incredibly trying and time-consuming. My comments were and are not directed at you or other Tulsa Pride volunteers (added note of explanation: I called the planning and execution of Tulsa Pride 2023 incompetent – which it clearly was – and were directed at any OkEq staff involved with planning of that cluster__). Please accept my apologies as and if they were taken as such. I also ask you to read the “series” of pic comments (ran over Facebook character limits so did pics), aka a rather lengthy but hopeful explanation of the signiﬁcance, importance, and necessity to hold major “Pride” such as the Tulsa Pride Parade and Festival events in June in their entirety. I volunteered with, led major components of the (then) week+ long celebration, and/or chaired Tulsa Pride for 11 years (1997-2007). I also served as President (1999-2000) and in multiple board positions of OkEq (1998-2003) during that time. I then was the ED of OkEq (2005-2007). During my time with OkEq, I was asked to join and was re-elected to the national board of LGBT Community Centers (now CenterLink). Although not directly with OkEq the last few years, I care deeply for the health and well-being of the LGBTQ+ community, as well as for the success of the mission of equality of OkEq. After all, my husband and I wrote the original (as it was recently changed) mission statement. The information relayed to myself pertained to the late timing of applications and therefore associated scheduling of city employees, etc. related to the lengthy permitting process. Prior to that news, serious ﬁnancial issues had been discovered within OkEq, before the Equality Gala and Tulsa Pride 2023, and shared with select others. Staffing and leadership changes also occurred before or possibly during that time. The latter two happenings directly affected and currently affect (e.g. the resulting ﬁnancial situation of OkEq clearly played a role in any decision to move Tulsa Pride) the organization as a whole. An organization, with a 1.2 million dollar budget and multiple (8 at that time?) employees, did not have 1 full-time employee dedicated to its largest program, Tulsa Pride? That is…interesting. Interesting in that years ago, even with only 2.5 employees, the .5 employee (who actually worked full-time) was dedicated to Tulsa Pride. 47 �The revelation that prior documentation or “blueprints” for Tulsa Pride from previous years were not available or found, is much more troubling in numerous ways. Immediate and recent past records, aka documents with vital information, planning directions with deadlines, protocols, etc. of all programs of OkEq, not to mention its largest program should be readily accessible via electronic and/or paper ﬁles in and on the property of OkEq. Historical documents and photos are (were?) kept on the property of OkEq in a speciﬁc room. It is completely astounding and disturbing, to say the least, that vital programming and historical documents were (are?) nowhere to found on the property of OkEq! I know serious ﬁnancial issues currently facing OkEq are being addressed by individuals and groups of individuals. There appear to also be questions related to…additional operational and/or questionable behaviors within the organization…that must be further addressed if not yet investigated with all necessary remedial actions taken. [Editor’s note – as our small group of volunteers and part-time archivist continue to organize the history project materials and information from digital storage platforms, many of the past pride materials are being located and organized.] All that being said…Congratulations to you and your team for the jobs done to accomplish much while dealing with the extreme and unique circumstances of Tulsa Pride 2023. “Pride” started as a riot in June 1969. What is internationally recognized as a deﬁning moment – the visible beginning of the ﬁght for LGBTQ+ equality – began on June 28, 1969. The Stonewall Riots, aka “Stonewall” demonstrated the strength and conviction of our community through visibility and direct actions. Those actions of courage and bravery, during the hot Summer days and nights of June, galvanized the LGBTQ+ community in the continuing ﬁght for equality. The NYC site of those important events is now the “Stonewall National Monument,” declared as such in 2016. “Stonewall” was a milestone – it is the WHEN and WHY the LGBTQ+ community publicly declared our freedom and equality! Tulsa Pride began as a picnic in June 1982. A celebration of the LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa, only 13 years after June 1969, was a milestone for our community. The celebrations growth, through increasing attendance, visibility, and organization, bought the 1st Tulsa Pride Parade to the streets of Tulsa on June 12, 1999 (25 years ago next week btw). That milestone for our community fulﬁlled a 17 year quest to march the streets of Tulsa for LGBTQ+ equality. Since that ﬁrst Picnic in 1982, to that ﬁrst Pride Picnic in 1999, to the present day celebration, Tulsa Pride has grown and evolved from a picnic near the edge of town to a large-scale event in Downtown Tulsa. It is one of the many signiﬁcant accomplishments of the Tulsa LGBTQ+ community during the past 44 years (OkEq was founded in 1980). 48 �During that time period, the LGBTQ+ community also faced many obstacles. The HIV/AIDS crisis that began circa 1981, killing and affecting many in our community, was and is a signiﬁcant health obstacle. I’ve lost multiple friends to HIV/AIDS. I know others currently living with HIV/AIDS and other serious health concerns. I have extended family members experiencing, or that have experienced Huntingtons, Down Syndrome, Parkinson’s, Cancer, and more. I also have immediate family members living with Cancer, Chromosonal issues, and now ALS. I have educated myself on these various health issues. I do so through talking with, sitting with, volunteering in support of, reading up on, and caring for my friends, community, and family. Do not ever imply I do not care for the health and wellbeing of my friends, my family, or the LGBTQ+ community – EVER! The health of everyone is always a major concern for all past and present organizers of any event or celebration. Juneteenth, 4th of July celebrations, the MLK Jr. Parade, and Tulsa Pride are a few of the major public events held in Tulsa. Those celebrations, and others not listed, happen during months that can extreme and unique weather conditions. Those conditions can, have, and will cause health concerns. Organizers of those events, can, have, and successfully do address health concerns. OkEq has done and easily can do the same with innovative, inclusive, and exciting solutions. OkEq can also do all that while preserving the vital reason that WHEN these events happened are because WHY these events happen! We celebrate Juneteenth on June 19th, or near that day, every year to commemorate the last day of slavery – when freedom was delivered. We celebrate our country’s Independence Day every year on July 4th to commemorate the day we, as a country, declared out freedom. We celebrate Martin Luther King Jr every year on the 3rd Monday in January to commemorate his leadership in the Civil Rights Movement while declaring “We Shall Overcome…” We celebrate Pride every year during the month of June to commemorate the days in June 1969 when LGBTQ+ community members visibly fought back, declaring our freedom and equality! It is seriously doubtful organizers of the above events, and more not named, will ever move their associated events to a different season for any reason. Why? Most often, WHEN we have an important event is tied into WHY that event happens. Tulsa Pride should return to June. Tulsa Pride exists to: 1) Commemorate the beginning of the LGBTQ+ community of visibly ﬁghting for our freedom and equality, 2) Educate the 49 �general public about our community and work for equality, and 3) Celebrate our entire community and the progress made for equality since June 1969. Tulsa Pride must return to June to fulﬁll the mission of OkEq. Working for Equaltiy for the LGBTQ+ community WAS at the core of the mission of Oklahomans for Equality (OkEq). Moving Tulsa Pride outside the month of June, 1) eliminates the actual WHEN and WHY Pride even happens, 2) Eliminates visibility during the nationally recognized (for the time being) Pride Month, and 3) Eliminates the best opportunity to actually work for equality. We, the LGBTQ+ community, face the real threat of dark days and years in the not-toodistant future. The multiple actions, laws, and decisions across our nation targeting our community are real and strengthening. Legal discrimination, the loss of marriage-equality, and worse actions are deﬁnite possibilities facing our community (refer 2024 Elections). In June 1969, the LGBTQ+ community took to the streets ﬁghting back against persecutors. The LGBTQ+ community has faced and addressed serious health issues, such as HIV/AIDS to the beneﬁt of our community and general public. The LGBTQ+ community continues to ﬁght for equality over the years, facing attacks, discrimination, and yes, killings. The LGBTQ+ community has made progress in the ﬁght for equality. The stage is being set to challenge and reverse the LGBTQ+ community’s progress. The stage is being set to remove our civil rights, marriage equality, and much more. When the LGBTQ+ community faces the coming serious challenges to our civil rights and equality – will we take to the streets to ﬁght for our equality, to ﬁght for our future, and to possibly ﬁght for our lives? Or will the LGBTQ+ community only ﬁght for our and future generations equality, civil rights, or lives – if the WHEN is convenient and the WHY is comfort? Happy Pride (and Happy 25th Anniversary to the Tulsa Pride Parade on June 12, 2024)! 50 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Greg Gatewood Interview Description An account of the resource In this engaging conversation, Greg Gatewood shares his life story, beginning with his upbringing in rural Wyandotte, Oklahoma. He reflects on his childhood experiences, including his education at Oklahoma State University, where he pursued architecture. Greg discusses the close-knit community of his small school, his involvement in sports, and his early interests in agriculture through the Future Farmers of America (FFA). He also touches on his family dynamics, highlighting the influence of his parents and siblings on his formative years. As the conversation progresses, Greg opens up about his journey of self-discovery regarding his sexual orientation, coming out as a gay man during his time at OSU in the mid-1980s. He recounts the challenges he faced growing up in a religious family and the societal pressures of the time. Greg's narrative shifts to his involvement in the LGBTQ community in Tulsa, detailing his volunteer work at the Tulsa Gay Community Center and his role in organizing Pride events. His reflections provide insight into the evolution of LGBTQ rights and visibility in Oklahoma, showcasing both personal and communal growth over the years. In this episode, the speakers reflect on their experiences and pivotal moments in the LGBTQ+ community, particularly focusing on the establishment and evolution of the Tulsa Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, and Community Center. They recount a poignant story from November 2000, when a man drove all night to seek refuge and support at the center after coming out to his wife. This encounter highlights the center's role as a safe haven and resource for individuals in crisis. The conversation also delves into the personal connections formed within the community, including the speakers' own relationship and their involvement in various initiatives, such as the Pyramid Project and Pride events, which aimed to foster inclusivity and support for LGBTQ+ individuals in Tulsa. As the discussion progresses, the speakers share their memories of significant events, including the impact of Matthew Shepard's death on the community and the importance of activism in raising awareness. They reflect on their roles in organizing Pride events and the challenges faced in advocating for LGBTQ+ rights. The episode concludes with a sense of nostalgia and gratitude for the friendships and connections made through their work, emphasizing the ongoing journey toward equality and acceptance. Subject The topic of the resource Greg Gatewood Oral History Project Interview from January 15, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Greg Gatewood, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 15, 2026 2026 activism architecture coming out Coming Out Day community Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill family Gay Rights Greg Gatewood interview Matthew Shepard OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) oral history oral history interview Oral History Project OSU Pride pride Parade Pride Parade and festival rural transcript Tulsa Community Center Tulsa Gay Community Services Center video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/dea5687994523c956c6878299c4cdbdd.pdf 1cd60c6a28dd7281d0d3dd2aa563452c PDF Text Text Tulsa is home to America’s reigning ‘president of drag’ 1 of 7 https://tulsaflyer.org/2026/06/23/culture/post/president-of-drag/ CULTURE How a Tulsa TV anchor-turned-theater director became America’s reigning ‘president of drag’ by Haley Samsel June 23, 2026 Travis Guillory in his midtown Tulsa home drag room surrounded by his collection of gowns and other items for his works as Tracy La Louisianne. Tim Landes Have aCredit: question or a/ Tulsa tip? Flyer Text us. 7/9/2026, 3:48 PM �Tulsa is home to America’s reigning ‘president of drag’ 2 of 7 https://tulsaflyer.org/2026/06/23/culture/post/president-of-drag/ The country’s reigning Miss Gay America — a title she sometimes playfully refers to as “the president of drag” — doesn’t live in a Los Angeles mansion or a New York City walkup. She calls midtown Tulsa home. Travis Guillory is the last person to predict he would be standing among the dozens of shimmering costumes, wigs and crowns required to transform into Tracy La Louisianne, who he describes as “Travis on steroids.” A former local TV anchor and current executive director of Theatre Tulsa, Guillory’s drag career began less than four years ago. Now he’s fielding requests from America’s Got Talent producers who watched Tracy earn the national title in January. “I’m not kidding when I say my life literally changed overnight,” Guillory said. Have a question or a tip? Text us. 7/9/2026, 3:48 PM �Tulsa is home to America’s reigning ‘president of drag’ 3 of 7 https://tulsaflyer.org/2026/06/23/culture/post/president-of-drag/ Tracy La Louisianne was crowned Miss Gay America 2026 in January. Credit: Courtesy Tracy La Louisianne / Miss Gay America ‘Proved every single one of us wrong’ Guillory’s journey to winning the country’s longest-running and largest drag pageant wasn’t linear. Originally from southern Louisiana, he moved to Tulsa in 2017 to work for 2 News Oklahoma. The longtime performer and director quickly became involved in the local theater scene. That’s where Tracy was born. Guillory was cast as seasoned drag queen Miss Tracy Mills in World Stage Theatre Company’s 2021 production of “The Legend of Georgia McBride.” The role required him to take a “crash course” on drag performance and culture. The University of Tulsa’s HallowQueens show came calling soon after. First, though, Guillory needed a name. “I looked up Louisiana cocktails and I found ‘La Louisianne,’ which is basically a New Orleans version of a Manhattan, my favorite drink,” he said. “It just stuck.” Alongside a career shift to public relations, Guillory began performing one-woman cabarets with Oklahomans for Equality and expanding Tracy’s repertoire. Her persona is inspired by the largerthan-life female leads Guillory grew up watching in Broadway musicals. Think Mrs. Lovett from “Sweeney Todd” or Miss Hannigan from “Annie.” “I get to be what my younger self always wanted to be,” Guillory said. The act caught the attention of the then-reigning Miss Gay Oklahoma, who encouraged Guillory to condense the cabaret into a six-minute routine and enter a pageant. The contest follows a similar format to the Miss America competition, featuring an on-stage Q&A, judges interview, evening gown and talent showcase. Travis Guillory in his home drag room in his midtown Tulsa home. Have a question or a tip? Text us. Over time he began to see each element of the Credit: Tim Landes / Tulsa Flyer 7/9/2026, 3:48 PM �Tulsa is home to America’s reigning ‘president of drag’ 4 of 7 https://tulsaflyer.org/2026/06/23/culture/post/president-of-drag/ score as a chance to do what he does best: communicate, think on his feet and embody Tracy’s theatrical personality. “You don’t have to fit the mold. You have to be the mold,” Guillory said. “It’s not like you’re trying to show up with what people expect Miss Gay America to be and look like. You show up the way you do your art at a very high level, and that’s Miss Gay America that year.” When he met Guillory in Tracy’s early days, Tulsan Ryan Bennett was already an established drag artist performing as Natalia Masters. Guillory was always talented, Bennett said, but a bit hesitant to lean “into his shtick” as a ball of energy on and off the stage. That’s no longer the case. “The one thing that I have seen him grow in is actually just his self confidence as an entertainer,” said Bennett, now one of Guillory’s best friends and collaborators. “There were so many people that told him that the direction that he was going wouldn’t get him very far, and he just proved every single one of us wrong in the best way possible.” The weight of the crown By the time she headed to Little Rock for the national competition in January, Tracy had already racked up honors like Miss Gay Oklahoma and Miss Gay Gulf Coast. In the days prior, Theatre Tulsa company director Mandy Gross and Guillory began discussing what it would look like if Guillory returned with the title. “I think Tracy knew that she was going to win, but Travis didn’t think that he was going to win,” Gross said. Many peers are in the pageant system for years before reaching the big stage. But Tracy pulled out all the stops — walking the stage in a gator costume holding a detached head and earning audience roars during her cabaret, which forced judges to pick their own adventure — and stole the show in her second national competition. Have a question or a tip? Text us. 7/9/2026, 3:48 PM �Tulsa is home to America’s reigning ‘president of drag’ 5 of 7 https://tulsaflyer.org/2026/06/23/culture/post/president-of-drag/ Part of Tracy’s pitch was her ability to build a brand and lead the Miss Gay America organization through an ownership transition and moving its national competition to Atlanta. “I can put on a nice gown and a nice wig and do all of these things. I can figure out the aesthetic,” Guillory said. “But it’s more of what’s in somebody’s heart and what’s in somebody’s brain that actually makes them a successful Miss Gay America.” The crown can weigh heavily on the head that wears it. Bennett describes the duties as “grueling,” requiring weeks of travel to lead contestant orientations and judge briefings at competitions across the country in addition to performing and promoting gigs. Many winners quit their day jobs to complete their reigns. Not Guillory. He and Gross have worked together to ensure he can still give his energy to Theatre Tulsa, which he took over in summer 2024, and keep shows running smoothly. “You know how people are left-brained or right-brained? He’s got both,” Gross said. “He is really great at the creative stuff, and really great at scheduling and being organized and the stuff that super creative people usually aren’t. I don’t know where he gets that from, and I don’t know where he gets all the energy to do it.” Bennett has watched Guillory weather the highs and lows that come with pursuing a burgeoning drag career and keeping up with responsibilities at home. He has a community of supporters, including his partner and fellow drag performer Kallaya, who understand the pressure. Have a question or a tip? Text us. It also comes down to feeling the emotions in the moment and not letting them overtake you, Bennett said. When Guillory needs to cry or scream, he lets it out. 7/9/2026, 3:48 PM �Tulsa is home to America’s reigning ‘president of drag’ 6 of 7 https://tulsaflyer.org/2026/06/23/culture/post/president-of-drag/ “He’s a superstar in that,” Bennett said. “He knows when it is appropriate to let loose and be vulnerable, and he knows when it’s time to put your big girl panties on and be professional, be the administrator and do the job of being Miss Gay America.” Have a question or a tip? Text us. 7/9/2026, 3:48 PM �Tulsa is home to America’s reigning ‘president of drag’ 7 of 7 https://tulsaflyer.org/2026/06/23/culture/post/president-of-drag/ ‘We just want to exist’ Five months after returning from Little Rock, Guillory is still navigating his new reality. He’s embracing the flood of new opportunities — potential residency in Puerto Vallarta, anyone? — while still appreciating what Tulsa has to offer as an affordable home base for regular gigs in Arkansas and Missouri. He’s passionate about growing the city’s arts scene and says he’s never had a reason to leave. “I’ve lived three lifetimes in Tulsa and I’m on my fourth one now,” Guillory said. He’s not sure where life will take him by the time his reign ends in January. For now, he’s focused on a full calendar of gigs and the mission in front of him: representing Oklahoma on the national stage and serving as a beacon of hope for those feeling targeted by anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric. “We just want to exist,” Guillory said. “When people see Miss Gay America, they need to see somebody who’s just existing to the f–king fullest.” News decisions at the Tulsa Flyer are made independently of our board members and financial supporters. Read more about our editorial independence policy here. Have a question or a tip? Text us. 7/9/2026, 3:48 PM � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Collection] Oklahoma LGBT+ History Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Travis Guillory Tulsa Flyer Article Subject The topic of the resource How a Tulsa TV anchor-turned-theater director became America’s reigning ‘president of drag’ Description An account of the resource 1 article written by Haley Samsel from Tulsa Flyer regarding Travis Guillory's winning of the Miss Gay America title as Tracy La Louisianne. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Haley Samsel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived https://tulsaflyer.org/2026/06/23/culture/post/president-of-drag/ Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Tulsa Flyer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 23, 2026 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Collection] Oklahoma LGBT+ History Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Digital Media: Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2004] Gay in Oklahoma - In the Bible Belt, Acceptance is Hard-Won, Washington Post, September 26, 2004 Subject The topic of the resource Michael Shackelford in Sand Springs, Oklahoma Description An account of the resource Series by Anne Hull, Washington Post Staff Writer Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hull, Anne Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Washington Post Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Washington Post Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2004-9-26 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Washington Post Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Washington Post Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Article available to researchers for on-site viewing only due to copyright. Location:OkEq History Project/Ddatadrive/History-General (in Omeka)/WashingtonPostArticleonGayYouthMichaelShackelfordinSandSprings https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/cf6b577e53dff0d010c24f8c9643aa02.pdf a4d0df444b695ec27018556b309ee10b PDF Text Text �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oklahoma LGBT+ History > In Memoriam Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Digital Media: Person An individual. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2016] Benjamin Earl Rager Funeral Service Pamphlet Subject The topic of the resource Benjamin "Ben" Earl Rager (15 July 1970 - 7 May 2016) Funeral Service Pamphlet Description An account of the resource A pamphlet for Benjamin "Ben" Earl Rager's (15 July 1970 - 7 May 2016) funeral service at First United Methodist Church on May 10, 2016, 2 pages total. Officiated by Brent Matherly and hosted by Hutchins Maple Matherly Funeral Home. Front page artwork done by Thomas Kinkade. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hutchins Maple Matherly Funeral Home Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Thomas Kinkade, Media Arts Group, Inc. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 10, 2016 2016 Ben Earl Rager Benjamin "Ben" Earl Rager Benjamin Earl Rager Brent Matherly church service First United Methodist Church funerals Hutchins Maple Matherly Hutchins Maple Matherly Funeral Home in memoriam memoriam pamphlet Thomas Kinkade https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/7ccb91f4502ccbc782b457e9dddeef01.jpg 75538af90070094b1fb969271c6702a3 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2003] IBM Ad: Workplace Diversity = Marketplace Success Subject The topic of the resource Pride Description An account of the resource Pride month advertisement for IBM highlighting their diversity policies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource IBM Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 2003 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Advertisement Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Pride Month Gay-friendly businesses IBM Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Jack Waggoner Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 3, 2005 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on December 3, 2005. Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Born in Western Kansas in 1936, Jack graduated from Pawnee Rock High School and then joined the Navy in 1954. He attended University of Kansas and began his professional career in Kansas City, Missouri and became involved in the gay community. Upon moving to Tulsa, he became an interstate truck driver. In the interview, he discusses the various gay bars, his eleven year relationship with a bartender and other activities and interactions in the Tulsa gay community. Subject The topic of the resource Jack Waggoner Oral History Project Interview from December 3, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jack Waggoner, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2003 available at Center bar life gay bar Gay Bars interview Jack Waggoner Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript transcript University of Kansas video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/18ab089ee94d63ffd9e7d04ee1d65c33.mp4 7d9e214b99d8ee9a56603bf83ef4c16e https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/bd38c834e284b300aec3bb350b6559a0.pdf c65882cf093a1122f482853b3eeea6c7 PDF Text Text Oral History Interview with Janet Gearin Interview Conducted by Laura Belmonte February 22, 2004 OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Edmon Low Library ● Oklahoma State University ©2004 �OKEQ Oral History Project Interview History Interviewer: Laura Belmonte Transcriber: Janet Gearin Editors: Anika Benthem The recording and transcript of this interview were processed at the Oklahoma State University Library in Stillwater, Oklahoma. Project Detail The OKEQ Oral History Project is a series of interviews documenting the rich contributions of LGBTQ community members in the state of Oklahoma, with a particular emphasis on Tulsa and the surrounding area. These interviews were conducted by members of Oklahomans for Equality, formerly Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. Legal Status Scholarly use of the recordings and transcripts of the interview with Janet Gearin is unrestricted. The interview agreement was signed on February 22, 2004. 2 �OKEQ Oral History Project Janet Gearin Oral History Interview [Editor note – Janet provided an update in March 2026 which is at the end of this transcript in an Addendum.] Interviewed by Laura Belmonte February 22, 2004 Tulsa, Oklahoma Belmonte It is Sunday, February 22, 2004, and I am Laura Belmonte with Jennifer Davis, and today we are interviewing Janet Gearin. Janet, will you just begin with some basic, biographical information? Gearin You want my age and all of that? (Laughs) Belmonte Your birthday, occupation, you know, that sort of stuff. Gearin Now, I just turned February 3. I was born in 1947, so I’m fifty-seven years old. I’m from Oklahoma, born in Vinita. Didn’t live there very long. Folks lived mostly in Duncan, and I actually finished high school in Lindsay, Oklahoma, which is south of Oklahoma City. When I finished high school, I decided that I wanted to go to college, did so, and went to the University of—Oklahoma College of Liberal Arts, I should say. It had changed—it was OCW, which was Oklahoma College for Women, but the year before I went, they actually changed it to a co-ed school, so that was really quite an experience to be there at a university that had been a women’s college for fifty-some-odd years. I had a really good time there. I was a biology major, minored in chemistry, and I was pre-med at that time. When it got time for me to go and interview at the University of Oklahoma for med school, I was declined admission, primarily because I was a woman, but at that time, I didn’t really want to take issue with it. I kind of started to get cold feet anyway, so I—after I finished my degree there, I went ahead and worked for a year at Saint Francis. I worked in labor and delivery and decided that that was my life. I really like labor and delivery and thought seriously that I would be like a midwife. I stayed there for a little over a year. I applied to nursing school and was accepted into the University of Colorado and was there for three years getting a bachelor’s of science and nursing. However, along the way, while I 3 �was in that process of three years, I realized that there was very little work and employment for midwives. Unless you lived in Kentucky or parts of Tennessee, you really couldn’t practice that. I made a course change as I was in nursing school and decided that I really psychiatry. From that point on, I became invested in pursuing a career in psychiatric nursing. While there, I was talked to by my professor, and she suggested that I consider going to get my master’s degree and becoming what they were calling a clinical specialist. It was a brand new role, been out for a couple of years. I looked at the various universities across the country, and basically, there were ten that offered that degree: places like Rutgers, Boston University, Case Western University, University of Colorado, University of California, San Francisco, University of Washington—really great places. Had no way of being able to travel and seeing where I wanted to go, so just kind of talking with various professors and ruling out places because they only accepted men, which was really (Laughs)—I had no idea that I would get accepted to all of them, and I felt that surely if I found one that would take me, that would answer that question. I ended up getting accepted to all ten universities, and then I had to make a choice. I decided that I wanted to go west and went to the University of California, San Francisco and lived there for two years while I worked on my master’s degree. Then decided at that point in time that I really needed to come home. My parents were aging; I had a grandmother that was in her eighties, and I felt like I really needed to come back to Oklahoma. I’d always said that if I got my degree, I would come back to Oklahoma and try and help upgrade nursing here because it was really quite antiquated compared to how progressive it was on each coast. Did come back. The only way I could come back was by working with the Department of Veterans Affairs because no one else was going to pay me the salary that I felt like I at least needed and wanted, so I did come back, work with the VA in Muskogee. Started there March of ’75, and I’ve been with the VA ever since then. Opened a brand new mental health clinic in Muskogee. I was the first person they hired for that clinic, and then, when we moved up to Tulsa in ’79, I opened the clinic there, helped get that set up. Then three years ago, we relocated here in Tulsa to 41st and Mingo and opened that one. Actually have now been in three different mental health clinics, but all with the VA. I now have twenty-nine years of experience there and work with veterans within mental health, and love my work. I truly do. I have still great energy and a gift for my work and love it, dearly love it. That’s kind of where I’ve been. The other parts of my life, in terms of more personal, is I’m the youngest of six children, and it was yours, mine, and our—I’m the “our” child. I have, surviving, I have two older brothers and one older sister; the other two are deceased. There’s a difference of twenty-one years between me and my 4 �oldest sister, and the next youngest is eleven years older than I am. For the most part, I was really kind of an alone child who grew up pretty much kind of on my own, latchkey kid. My father was a grocery man and did that until he retired because of health reasons. Parents are both deceased. When I was in college in Chickasha, realized that I probably was not quite like everybody else in terms of my sexual orientation, and that’s really kind of when I began to explore some of that. Belmonte Now, have you classified yourself as homosexual, heterosexual, or bisexual for most of your adult life? Gearin Homosexual. My family has pretty much known about that for the last thirty years. Didn’t really while I was out and away and going to school. It really was never talked about, you know, any of that. My one, big, huge regret is that my mother died before we really had a chance to talk about that because I was really very young. I was just into my thirties when she died and was in a very early relationship, my first real relationship, and just didn’t really get a chance to talk about that, and I regret that. I really wish that I had. I’ve had talks with brothers and sisters and my father, had a good talk with him about it. You know, that’s kind of how that got involved. When I started work here in Tulsa, I never really belonged to any kind of organization. I know that part of your interest, I guess, still is TOHR [Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights], but— Belmonte Not specifically, the whole community. Gearin Okay. When I moved here, I was in a relationship, and it was another nurse that was with the VA, and she had to medically retire because she was injured on the job. Altogether, we were in a twenty-five year relationship. I have a long history here in Tulsa. I’ve met lots of—I don’t even know how many hundreds of people I’ve met over the years. I feel that I’ve had a very rich life, and it’s been very different from my professional life, though, because I’m not exactly out, as you would say, in terms of my work, but I know that those folks have known me all these years. A majority of them do know, and I do have a couple of really good friends at work that do know. When I was—my relationship ended a few years ago, it was very difficult for me, and I confided in the psychiatrist that I work with here. She already knew pretty much anyway, so without her help and my other friends’ help, I really would have had a difficult time. Belmonte How old were you when you had your first homosexual experience? Gearin Let’s see, I think I was fifteen, if I remember…I believe I was fifteen! And it was in the back of a car! (Laughter) That’s not even the best part. The best part is that it was moving; it was being driven by the girl’s mother. We were 5 �on our way to California. I was just about to panic; I’ll never forget that. That was probably the most priceless experience I had in my life. Belmonte Had you suspected there was something different? When do you recall thinking that for the first time? Gearin Actually, it was because of her. When I was in high school—this will really—well, I’ve already told you how old I am. I was in band. I was a very active band student, a very good musician. Belmonte What years did you go to high school? Gearin This would have been, let’s see, I was in ninth grade, so this would have been freshman in high school. It would’ve ben ’61? There were a group of us girls that we’d hang out. The other girls were a year older than I, and so they would have been sophomores in high school. It was so funny. We really were close; we were really tight knit. All of the sudden I realized—I went to class one day, went to band; band was first thing in the morning, and it was like, “Okay, we’re not talking to Vivienne.” “We’re not? Why?” “She’s queer.” I thought, well—my definition was queer was “odd.” I had no other definition for queer. I’m thinking, “Well, what’s that got to do with not talking to her?” Had not sexualized this at all. Had not a clue. I was just so naïve. We go then to another class, and I’m sitting there, and I’m talking to one of the students before the class starts, and I said, “I don’t really understand what the heck you’re talking about. What’s so strange about Vivienne?” She said, “Janet, that’s not queer. Don’t you know what queer is?” I said, “Yes. It’s strange, odd.” I’m trying to remember what else it was in terms of Webster’s Dictionary. She said, “Janet, no. She’s a lesbian; she’s gay.” Or homosexual, I’m sorry, I don’t even think gay was being used then. I said, “Oh.” I still wasn’t even sure, and I thought, “Huh, how do you know that?” That was my question, was “How do you know that?” Belmonte What did she say? Gearin She said, “Well, one of the girls, Martha told us.” “Well, how does Martha know?” It was like—I was no big deal, so what’s the difference? As it was, the ostracization that she suffered, it was just terrible. I’ve never been able to understand how people discriminate. To me, you care for somebody because of who they are, the person that they are. This was a girl that we had all been friends for many years. We had grown up together, we were in band together, we ran around together, we did things together. Now, they’re saying that because she was queer and she was a homosexual, that now we could no longer have a relationship with her. I probably endured that for, I’d say, maybe a month. I just couldn’t do it anymore. It was like, I would 6 �watch her. She would walk by herself to class. Nobody walked with her, nobody talked with her. Boys made fun of her. Girls would—I mean, it was just awful, it was just absolutely awful. I literally could not tolerate it, and so I just decided one day, I’m walking with her. I went up and walked with her to class, I don’t care. You know, if they don’t like me, that’s it. If I’m like her, then I guess I’m like her. It was at that point in time that I really became very interested in humanity and how we treat each other for being different and not really understanding why we were treating people that differently and hating her and calling her names. I realized that there’s sometimes that you take a risk. I lost my naivete. I realize that there’s times where you take a risk for disclosure of some of this information. I really found her to be extremely brave. I don’t know how she did it because there was a lot of abuse that she endured. I never saw her cry, I never saw her break down, I never saw her complain. It was a really troubling time, but yet it was also a really good time. I became her friend. We had been friends, but it was like I just wasn’t going to let my relationship with her go because other people wouldn’t associate with her. Slowly but surely, and I don’t know that I ever got much in terms of repercussions because after all this time, I don’t really remember anybody saying anything negative to me or distancing themselves the way they did, but it was kind of like people followed suit as I started talking to her again and interacting with her again, other people, I guess, decided that it was okay. I think that maybe many of them felt badly because this was a small town, a small school. There were like sixty of us in my class and maybe about that many in the class ahead of me, so we’re really talking about a pretty small school. A lot of that started to stop and I don’t remember people calling her names or anything else like that after that. It was—but this was the young girl that—she kind of became infatuated with me, and I guess I could understand that, and I did become infatuated with her; she was really my first love. I had no idea until we were in the backseat of that car going to California, and she kissed me. It was like, “Oh.” (Laughs) “I don’t think we should be doing this,” because it was not just a kiss on the cheek, it was like—oh my word. Then I didn’t know what to do because I knew I shouldn’t say anything because her mother was driving. I’m all the sudden thinking, “Oh my god, is she able to see in the rearview mirror?” You know, all these are going through your mind. It’s like, “Stop it, stop it. Don’t do that to me. Stop it. Help. No, no, don’t do this.” Then I was like, “Oh no, you know, this is just not supposed to be happening.” It was really pretty traumatic for me, but at the same time, I think I really was kind of intrigued by it as well. That was the first time. Belmonte Did you wind up having a relationship with Vivienne? 7 �Gearin To some degree, yes. You’re in high school and you’re doing different things, and she was a year older, so this was the summer before her junior year and my sophomore year. We really only had two more years together. We really were good companions. She was a latchkey kid; I was a latchkey kid. We lived close in terms of proximity, and it was kind of a—it was really just a very good friendship. It never really did progress the way it probably would have if I had really known what was going on and understood things. I didn’t push for that much, and she didn’t either. When she went to college—she went to a small college, went to the Oklahoma College for Women—I followed her. I basically did follow her. Since the last—I didn’t want to go to a big university. I knew that I really was not prepared to go to a big university; I had always thought I would go to the University of Oklahoma. I had been—had music scholarships and everything, but just couldn’t quite cut that, so I made the choice to go to a small school, which was just about thirty-five miles from where I lived. They had changed that over that year, and it still was predominantly women, you know, young girls, young women that were at the university there, and it was just a fun—I had a marvelous time for those four years there, just had a marvelous time. Belmonte You know, many women’s colleges have had very active lesbian networks, social lives, you know, even through the twentieth century and late nineteenth century. How would you describe the climate of your school on that? Gearin It was extremely closeted, let me tell you. I didn’t really appreciate the dangers involved. Vivienne, my friend, was really—I think she was always kind of cut out to be the one that was going to be taking that step and be on the edge. She wanted the freedom; she wanted to be who she was and to do what she wanted to do. She ended up being expelled my freshman year for homosexuality, and it was like—I think it was pretty late into my second semester. Belmonte This would have been around, what, 1966? Gearin This was ’66, no ’65. No, I’m sorry. It was ’66, spring of ’66. It was really awful. It was an awful, awful time for me. I can remember, you know, having—we were in a social club. They didn’t have a sorority on this campus, but they had social clubs for women, and we belonged to the same social club. Several of the members were real upset that she was just flaunting her sexuality and had been caught several times in the dorm by the dorm mother and stuff like this, and was just making no secret of it. It was causing a lot of uncomfortableness. They had tried talking with her and everything else and knew that she and I had been friends and said, “Janet, please talk with her.” I did, and she said, “Hey, I’m in love. I don’t care.” I said, “But you have to care. You know, this is—you know, you’re also looking at your career, your life, you know. They’re saying that you may get 8 �kicked out.” She said, “I don’t believe that.” It’s against the wall, or something like this, I can’t even remember. It’s been so many years ago. At any rate, she did get caught and got turned in. I remember she was coming out of the auditorium from the business offices with her mother and father, and I just absolutely was devastated because she was gone. You know, she was gone. The next thing I knew—it was a couple of days later— I get called into the Dean of Women’s office and that was an even bigger eye-opener because at that point in time, I’m told that I’ve implicated that I’m one of the homosexuals on campus. I’m sitting there, and all of the sudden I realize, this is not when you really want to tell people who you are. I’ve just seen what happened to my very best friend and knew that that was, you know, going to be really difficult for her for a long time. I had seen the look on her parents’ face, and I thought, “I will deny. I will do what I have to do.” I really was just still very naïve, and it wasn’t very difficult for me, as well. I just didn’t say anything; I didn’t volunteer. I said, “Well, that’s really not true.” I really had not been active on campus, but yet, you know, this was what was going to be said. Didn’t know if it was—if I had been implicated or not, it was all very hush-hush. This was a very crucial time, and this woman was really not a very nice woman; she was pretty mean, pretty vindictive. She had already had a…kind of a reputation among the students anyway as being somebody that was very bold, and so I kept my mouth shut. She made some comments, and I can’t remember now what it was that—I went to my friends and I said, “What does this mean?” (Laughs) I think she used the term “active.” I think that was what it was. I had not a clue what she was really talking about. I could remember running over to one of the few women that I really, honestly did know that she was a homosexual or a lesbian, went running over to her room afterwards—she wasn’t even going to let me in the room because everybody then—talk about shutting down doors. I mean, it was just really serious business because I wasn’t the only one that got called into office; several did. As far as I know, nobody else got dismissed, but it was— Belmonte It sounds as if Vivienne was asked to name names. Gearin Oh, and that she did. She did. She named quite a few, which really was kind of bad. I felt worse in terms of her having done that because of the repercussions for all of us. I often wondered if she was angry at me. I’ve often wondered if she was angry at me, and that’s why she did that for some reason. Although, I didn’t know what I had done to anger her. Belmonte It’s possible they told her if she did, they’d let her off. Gearin Might have, yeah. It’s hard to say, not knowing what the conversation was. 9 �Belmonte It’s interesting because a lot of students, I think, have—you know, they think the ’60s, they think wild sexual revolution but don’t really understand that policies like this were still in place all over the country, that these changes were really not made until after the ’60s, in some ways. OSU had very similar policies during the same time. Do you know what happened to Vivienne, ultimately? Gearin Yeah, she left school. She and the woman that she was involved with, they both got expelled from school. She went to California, where she had a brother and a sister living out there, and lived out there for several years and then ended up moving back to Oklahoma. Lived in Norman and worked with the post office. When I actually had finished my master’s degree, that was ’75, I came back in ’75, she was working with the post office in Norman. We actually got to meet up again after all those years, and that— but I never did remember to ask her that question, why she did do that. It was like we didn’t talk about it. I don’t think—I spent a few months with her. Off-and-on, we had a talking relationship for maybe about a year, but we didn’t get to see each other very frequently because I was busy with my status in my career at Muskogee, and she was very busy there and was in a relationship. I never did really find out exactly why she did what she did what she did. We had never talked about it. It was just kind of—we never really talked about it at that point. She was pretty actively involved in the gay community in Oklahoma City, Norman. You know, she was really—I think she may have even been out at work. I’m not so sure that she might not have been. This would have been ’75. Belmonte Sounds like someone who would have just been compelled to do it. Gearin Absolutely. Belmonte After this rather horrible experience in college, did you just go back in the closet to yourself? Gearin Oh, absolutely. Oh, listen. This was—we were about fifty miles from Lawton, and Lawton was a big military town, Army primarily. It was like the Army guys were always up every weekend because this was a women’s college, remember, so it was great for women dating soldiers. I mean, it was a great atmosphere. After that happened, [inaudible] decided, “Okay, I’m going to look real normal on this campus,” (Laughs) because I valued what I was doing there. I really wanted to make sure I got my education. The message was really clear; I mean, we were just—there was no way; everybody on campus knew what had happened. The Dean of Women made it very clear; the president made it very clear that, “Hey, you behave that way and we catch you, you’re gone.” It was like all of us—talk about going into the closet; we were down underneath the ground. We were so buried so 10 �deep. It was—I, at that point, in time decided, “Well, I think I’ll go and explore the other side and see what that’s like.” I really became heterosexual at that particular point in time in my life. It was like, that’s gone. I’m not going to do that again; I buried it. It’s too costly. It’s too much to risk. I don’t want to lose all of these things I wanted. That was kind of the brunt of that, and really it was not bad because I think all of those experiences of dating the military men have helped me in my career with the VA; it’s interesting. Belmonte When did you once again decide this is a part of me that I am not willing to sublimate anymore? Gearin When I was working on my master’s degree—this is kind of a funny story— when I was working on my master’s degree—here I am in San Francisco, which, I mean, the openness of the gay community, even in the ’70s, the early ’70s, was really pretty remarkable. Belmonte Do you recall how you responded to them initially? Gearin Well, I can remember thinking, “Oh, they’re really bold here!” It was like, “Oh my god, are they going to get arrested?” Then I realized that nobody noticed. It was like nobody saw two men walking down the street, holding hands, hugging, kissing; it was like nobody paid any attention. It was a normal part of behavior. My brain started trying to unwind some of all that I had twisted, and it was like, “Okay, if it’s all right to do this, well, now the thoughts come back.” Maybe this is the time where I can start to go back and look at this because I knew that I really was not heterosexual; there was no doubt in my mind. That was not where I wanted to be. I had gone that route just to be normal, and I had engaged myself really, totally in studies. I was a really good student, and I loved school. I really just kind of sublimated all of my sexual energy in just, you know, “Okay, we don’t exist. Let’s just do well in school, study, and have friends.” I did a lot of fun things, traveled a lot, and enjoyed my college—my careers. Remember, this is my third university now. I’m at the University of California, San Francisco, which is actually my third stop. Along the way, I had to take a course with getting a degree in—a master’s in psychiatric nursing. One of the courses that I had to take was human sexuality. In fact, we had several courses that we had to take. I had several clinical hours that I had to do stuff. It was like—I remember the first class, and we were sitting there, talking. There was like twenty of us in the class. The professor came in, and she said, “Okay, these are the things that you will be doing by the end of the term.” We had to [inaudible], we had to— yeah, see the life of prostitutes and all this other sort of stuff. We ended up having to go the sexual history museum there, which was just incredible. I mean, if you’ve never been to San Francisco and been to their museum of 11 �pornography and sexual history, it just—it was incredible. Had to go to a gay bar, had to go to—had to interview people with disabilities that had sexual dysfunctioning because of physical limitations. It was all sorts of things that was included in this course. I became very familiar with SIECUS [Sexuality Information and Education Council of the United States]. I don’t know if you guys are familiar with SIECUS, but that was my first introduction, really, to SIECUS and knowing and understanding that that really existed. Belmonte SIECUS is the nation’s, I think, oldest sex education advocacy organization. Gearin Right. They provided all the film work, and all of the films that we saw in the class were actually done by them. It was like, “Well, you’re turned loose on the city, so here you go.” Belmonte Now, this would have been coexistent with the time that it was tremendous tumult in the psychiatric profession about the removal of homosexuality from the— Gearin It was. It happened actually just two years later. I’m trying to remember what year was that... Belmonte ’74. Gearin Was it ’74? Yeah. This was ’72 when I was there. Belmonte Do you recall what you were being taught about homosexuality and whether or not the professors you had were challenging that? Gearin They were not challenging that, and they were really already talking pretty much as if it wasn’t an abomination; it was not a mental disorder. I can remember that several of the professors, several of the psychiatrists that we came in contact with in our clinical rotations, we had homosexual patients, but they did not really—unless their sexuality was an issue with that particular person, it was not an issue. I mean, if they were depressed, and they happened to be gay, that was not—you know, you didn’t treat them being gay. We didn’t try to change them or anything like this. I had seen some of that when I was in the University of Colorado, where there was some real effort to change. You know, they were doing sex changes in San Francisco, by the way, and I got in on doing some interviews with psychologists and joined through some of the progress—some of the process of what they were doing to see if indeed this person was mentally stable for a sex change operation. They had to go through a huge psychological evaluation before the surgeons—you know, they would really do any kind of procedures and things like this. Being involved in how they 12 �were preparing for those interviews and what kind of information they wanted to get and, you know, all this sort of thing. It was really a pretty fascinating time. Belmonte Definitely. When did you decide to come back to Tulsa? Gearin I had really pretty much decided when I went to graduate school, that after I finished, I really wanted to come home. I had been away for a long time. I knew that the education I had gotten, that nurses here were not getting that. I really wanted to be able to bring some of that back and to perhaps do some changing in education for nursing here in Oklahoma, and the only way you’re going to do that is you have to bring what you learned back. So I did do that. When I interviewed for the job position in Muskogee, I had to, first of all, be approved by the University of Oklahoma. In fact, it was a clinical appointment. Muskogee and the VA would not have been able to have hired me had not the University of Oklahoma approved my. Now, mind you, the irony in all of this is that the University of Oklahoma denied me admission to medical school, but now I’m good enough to teach their students and their residents. I thought that was really kind of a neat irony in my lifetime, that I had come back around, and, you know, that bus does keep coming back around. When I interviewed at the University of Oklahoma and talked with them, they asked me to do a colloquium because they had no idea that nursing education was as broad as [inaudible] and that I could do and that I had the ability to do what I did, which was primarily to be a psychotherapist. I had a huge background in medicine, as well. I had several classes in psychopharmacology, and they were just asking me questions. “Well, what about this drug? What about that drug? What about this diagnosis?” They could not believe the level of the education that I had, so I was the first clinical specialist to come to the state of Oklahoma and practice. I was the first to be asked to do a colloquium for the University of Oklahoma. Went down to Oklahoma City and, you know, did a presentation with—I think it was—it seemed like, to me, it was two hundred of them at that audience because I was a little overwhelmed that everyone there was a physician, but they were all fascinated and wanted to know how I knew what I knew and what kind of education I had gotten. It was really a very rewarding experience to go back and talk with the doctors, and, you know, they really treated me as a peer, which was a real special feeling for me. Belmonte How did you find out about gay life in Tulsa? Gearin It’s kind of interesting. When I got to Muskogee…you’ll laugh at this. This will tell you how I really met my lover of twenty-five years. I was working at the VA, and I had just gotten there from California. This—when I was when I was a nurse, and she worked on one of the units. She was—they 13 �were actually the first unit to call me for a consult. They had a patient there that was giving them some problems, and they felt like maybe I could come in and see the patient. So I came in, all very serious-minded, and I had to wear lab coats at that time, but I couldn’t wear regular clothes. Now, I was a California girl by this time and grew up just after the flower children. I was in the—lived right on Haight-Ashbury, lived right on Ashbury Street, just up from Haight. It was all a lot of flower children, free thinking, and I had had a wonderful, rich life when I lived in San Francisco. One of the things was mini-skirts were really big then, and I had some wonderful mini-skirts and things like this. I was much slimmer, and I’m tall anyway and was very tan. I guess when I came on to the hospital, I had all the doctors just absolutely coming in, married or not married, and it was like, “Oh no, don’t want to go here, don’t want to do this.” When I first came on that unit, Linda saw me, and she was the one that had actually requested the consult. This is a straight woman; she had already been married three times, I think it was. Belmonte Clearly didn’t take. Gearin Cleary. (Laughter) Clearly didn’t take. At any rate she—after I finished the consult, she says, “Why don’t you call me sometime?” Well, I’ve never— when you do that, you have to ask me specifically. I’m so naïve, and up in here, I don’t see things. I had no “gay-dar.” Absolutely none, zero, zip. I still don’t have a whole lot of it, but she had good “gay-dar,” which was good for us in our relationship because that’s really how we made friends. She was able to sense and understand, and after we did get together, we started dating and things like this. We met a couple there in Muskogee, and they told us about a bar here in Tulsa. It was over on Memorial, and “Let’s just go up.” I can remember that we, the four of us, came up one Saturday, drove up from Muskogee and walked into that bar, and I thought, “Oh my god, this is wonderful.” Belmonte What was the name of this bar? Gearin Oh my lord, you would ask me. I know I know it just as well, and everybody will know it…The Club. Just The Club: that was it, The Club. Jody and Muriel did—they were a great couple. We became pretty regular customers. (Laughs) You know, every weekend, we’d come up, and, you know, pretty much every weekend, met a group of women and started socializing. Then I had an opportunity to move up here in ’78 because we were going to open a clinic. We knew by that time that we were going to open a clinic here in Tulsa. I had made some really good friends, a couple of guys that we met— they were really—one of them was really quite closeted. He worked at American Airlines, so that was still, you know, early ’70s, late ’70s, early ’80s. He was not inclined to be too out at that particular time, and so we met 14 �these two guys and we just had a great time. Jan was from Amsterdam, and we just had a—we were just kind of soulmates, the four of us. We always had a really good time in doing things, and so the house next door to them came up for sale. Even though I knew we were going to move up here eventually, I didn’t really anticipate that it would be ’78, but it was ’78 when we bought the house and moved in. A year later, the clinic opened. Seventy-nine is when the clinic in the VA opened, so I no longer had to commute, which was much better, because that was a long commute. Once we moved up here, then things really began to grow and stuff. Linda was always a very social person, I mean, and very talented. She was a singer, so she was always out in clubs and things like this. She never met strangers. We very rapidly developed a good, close network of friends, and actually met Dennis Neill through—who’s involved—founder, really, of TOHR, pretty much. Met him and started doing some socializing through the Black and White group. I don’t know if you’ve—have you heard about the Black and White? Belmonte Tell me what you know about it. Gearin Oh, lord. That was a group of guys that decided they wanted to have fun and have a big party every year, so they would have a black and white party. You wore black and white. I mean, the theme was always black and white. You knew what it was, what it was going to be. I’m trying to think—there was quite a few of them at first. I knew several of them, and the first one we went to was down—the first one that Linda and I went to was on—just off of Riverside, at that club—I can’t think of the name of it—but I do believe that was the very first year they had that. That was at like 19th and Riverside, just right up over Riverside. It was the most wonderful time; we just had a ball. It was just all gay people. I mean, it was just absolutely wonderful to think that there’s this many of us, you know. It grew and grew and grew. I mean, every year, it got bigger and bigger. I think—I’m not sure how many years we did that, but it was quite a few years that they did that. It was the big party of the year. Belmonte Was that the first time you recall being at a place with a large number of gay people in Tulsa? Gearin Yes, so it was really fun. It was a lot of fun. Belmonte One of the things that strikes me was being in Tulsa in 2004, is it’s very easy to tap into networks of guys here, but the women’s community is very different. Yet, every once in a while, you’ll stumble into a party or something, and there are two, three hundred people that you probably will never see again. Do you recall similar experiences earlier? 15 �Gearin You know, it was really difficult to meet a lot of women. Most of the women we met were through The Club, which was predominantly a women’s bar. Yeah, you know, it was like—most of the times we went to events, we would be sometimes the only women, or there might be one other couple. Now, at the Black and White, that was not necessarily true, and gradually, more and more women did come. That first year, there weren’t nearly as many women as there were men, but it’s always kind of been that way; it’s an interesting phenomenon, I think, for here. I think today, it still is, to some of that degree. Lots of times, we’ll go to dinner parties and things like this and be the only women, you know. I know that these gay guys have other gay women friends, but it’s—I don’t know, it’s just kind of a strange situation. Belmonte You’ve mentioned The Club. Do you recall any other lesbian establishments? Gearin That was the major—there were several other bars around, but that really was the one that was best known for the women. It was owned by the women and operated by them, so even though the guys would come in there, it was pretty well known that it was primarily the women’s bar. You could go to some of the other gay bars in town, but lots of times, if you went, there may not be any other women there. It was pretty much the men that were in the other bars. Belmonte Now, were you involved in any sort of sports networks? I know that’s always been a good place for gay women to find one another. Gearin Actually not. I didn’t play sports. I really was a very good softball player, basketball player in college, but somehow, didn’t fall into that—how I really started meeting women outside of the bars was through TOHR. I was just earlier talking with a friend, trying to remember exactly when that was. I believe that I first started getting involved with TOHR about ’84, ’83, ’84…’85. How I really got involved with them—I remember doing by-laws; I can remember all sorts of things. They developed the telephone hotline, and John Dratz, who was an attorney here at that particular point in time, was trying to get it going. I had helped Tulsa, the city of Tulsa, develop the hotline here and train, and so he wanted me to work on the hotline for TOHR. That’s—I’m not sure what year that was that we opened that, but I think it was like ’85, maybe, or ’86. I’m not real sure. That was when the helpline really came into play. We even had it at a bar; we had it at Zipper’s. That’s where we were the very first few times that we took calls. (Laughter) I’d go down to the bar and, you know, walk in and go through the bar and go to the back office, you know. It was just amazing, it was just amazing. Belmonte Zipper’s sounds like it was quite the hub of gay life here for a long time. Do you have any memories of Zipper’s? 16 �Gearin Oh yes. It was really a great place. It was for everybody: you know, lots of dancing, lots of good music. It was really a pretty fun place to go. As I said, when I first was going there, I was working. You know, I was going into the back rooms and answering the phone. It was really was a fun place. Lots of folks would be there. We would always just be real decadent and acting out and doing our thing and thinking, “Oh, I wonder if anybody knows what really goes on behind these walls.” By the way, that would have been a good name for a movie, If These Walls Could Talk. You know, we had lots of fun with that. That was kind of interesting times, fun times. Belmonte You began telling us this story about what happened to Vivienne. Do you recall instances of discrimination and harassment of women you knew or men you knew in Tulsa in this period? Gearin You know, kind of by hearsay, never somebody I really knew closely. I can remember hearing stories of somebody that lost their job or was refused housing, you know, this kind of thing. We were—you know, I think in the early ’80s, we were still careful. I mean, you weren’t just real free with— you were careful with what you did. There were a lot of things that we did in homes, lots of parties and things, dinners. I went to a lot of events that were in people’s homes. A lot of that I think was because of safety issues; it was more that we felt like we were—you know, could be safe and not have to worry about walking out to our car and having the police follow you. I can remember tales where some women and guys would have left the club and been stopped by the police and harassed because they knew. The police knew that it was gay bars. They knew, you know, they knew where they were. We weren’t fooling anybody; they know where we were. I never personally was involved in it, and none of my really good friends were ever a part of that, but I did hear about it. I knew a couple of times there were some beatings. Some of the guys got beat up, but they were never people that I really knew. I may have known of them, but I didn’t know them really personally, know them well. I was pretty fortunate in that aspect. Belmonte Tell me about what you remember about AIDS reaching Tulsa? Gearin That was horrible. I had several really good friends that died in the mid ’80s and in the late ‘80s. I started having veterans come in at work, as well, and it was probably the worst time of my life: to have people that you know and love and you care about, and to watch them just very rapidly deteriorate and die. They didn’t live; they died. It changed my whole approach to life because I realized how precious it truly is. We don’t, any of us, have the luxury of knowing, but those guys had the misfortune of knowing that they weren’t going to live very long once they received their diagnosis. Most of them had been positive, probably, for quite some time, but we didn’t really 17 �know and understand the diseases nearly as well as we do now. Those times were really difficult, and I felt compelled to do something to help, not just professionally but also within the community because we were losing a lot of gay men. How follies was born, and I was a part of that. TOHR had been real active with that. This was 1988. I’ll never forget this. How I know this is I’m an OU fan; I love basketball. The University of Oklahoma was in the final four in 1988. They played the University of Kansas, in fact, in the championship game and lost. We were at follies, which TOHR produced as a fundraiser every year, and my lover and Ellis Wagoner, who at that time worked with the Tulsa Tribune—there were two papers at that time—he was the entertainment editor, and he was gay, and his lover was there. We were there—the four of us were there, and Linda and Ellis get off on this tangent, and they’re talking about, “You know what? We could put on a musical variety show and raise a hell of a lot of money,” because there were like, maybe a couple of hundred there. “We could really do this big; we could really do this.” We know all of the musicians; we knew—they knew talent. They started plotting all of this out. That was actually the birth of follies review, which for ten years did a musical variety show annually, and all the money that we made from that, outside of our expenses, we turned over to the community to agencies such as Tulsa Cares, RAIN, you know, anybody that was taking care of—St. Joseph’s. We gave money to anybody that was providing any kind of health care or any kind of benefits to people with AIDS. That was the birth of that, and that was through—and TOHR actually sponsored us our first two years. We did the first musical variety show in 1989 downtown at the PAC, the Performing Arts Center. We had the small stage—one of the small stages, John Williams, and we ran these people across and did music—it was a musical variety show. Had it for three nights, and that was 1989. Did it again in ’90 with TOHR, and then decided in ’93 we’d incorporate it and just decided to do it all on our own. The next eight years, we just did it all as our own…our own source, our own wings, [inaudible]. We gave away almost 300,000 dollars in ten years. We raised quite a bit of money and gave it to these little grass-roots organizations. I was very actively involved on several boards with Shanti. I was on their first board of directors. I did group therapy with AIDS patients, and the community helped establish some of those groups. I was just as—I mean, really there was days during the week that I would leave work and go do some of this stuff, and it was like, almost a twenty-four hour kind of thing. I was just very actively involved in doing everything that I could. Did so for about ten years and gradually kind of started to burn out with some of them because you just don’t have the energy. Buried a lot of friends during those years; that was an awful time. Tremendous losses, you know, you had such a 18 �wonderful, talented group of people, and they’re no longer here. It’s really too bad because they were in the primes of their lives. They would’ve, you know, had AIDS not come around, been there, been here. Belmonte It sounds to me like Tulsa was actually pretty bold in responding to AIDS in the early stages. Gearin Very. We got very well organized through the Community Service Council, which was a United Way foundation group. Janice Nicolas and Joan Flint were kind of the spearhead of that, and they started getting the community together. All the organizations that were doing anything, we all started networking and we would meet down there once a month, and we would do planning. We would look at, “What are we having problems with? What do we need?” but there were several organizations that—respectable, you know, straight organizations—that were involved. It still offered, I think, for all of us, a little bit of a hope that not everybody is discriminatory, not everybody is going to dismiss us, that, you know, we are real people, we do have something to contribute. It was through those efforts of those women and some of the other—like the Visiting Nurse Association, our affiliation there—it was, really it was a wonderful time of networking and doing liaison work and growing and developing and, you know, meeting people and trying to see that we had a real need here, and we had a real void, and what could we do to plug in. It was a great time. It was a busy time, a hugely busy time, but very successful, as well. We had an infectious disease physician, who was very well-known in the community, Dr. Jeff Beale and his lover, Ted Campbell, and they were spearheading all the medical parts of it. They helped, you know. Everybody was involved; everybody was doing things. If you weren’t doing things, you at least went to some of the events and gave your money, you know, like follies or some of the other things. I can remember ice cream—there was always something going on. Interfaith AIDS Network was also around then, and they were an even—really smaller group. It was the Quakers and some of those folks, and they were involved, and they were doing ice cream socials and street fairs, and you know, everybody was trying to turn a dime. I mean, we were all trying to get money because we were wanting these organizations to help these young men. Trying to provide them buddies, trying to provide them support groups…we felt they were just hugely necessary. Catholic charities had St. Joe’s house, which was taking care of those that, once they became so debilitated, families couldn’t take care of them, and we could—you know, or they were abandoned. We could put them in there, and we could help take care of them. It was a time when everybody kind of bonded and pulled together. I think the gay community really started to see that they could have some support with the straight community. I mean, it 19 �was like—there were some real inroads made during that time. The AIDS crisis did a lot for other things, too. It wasn’t just the bad things; there were also some really very good things, very positive things that came out of that. This is just an incidental we’ll add in here. (Laughter) We’re going to backtrack a little. There were a lot of really funny things that happened when Linda and I used to go to The Club. They had a woman that was all into her; her name was Suki. Suki would always kind of monitor if we came in and came out and stuff like this. Jody usually was working behind the bar. Mary would sometimes, as well, and they would kind of circulate. They were the owners of the bar. One night, Linda and I were there, and it was a big crowd. I can’t remember exactly what happened to start it all off, but as I recall, I think a guy got pretty drunk and started getting pretty disorderly. Jody came flying across the bar, (Laughs) nailed a guy, pushed him up to the wall, and was holding him. Well, everybody is jumping up, and it’s like— everybody is now going to—when you know that something is happening, like a fight or something like this—it was the closest I ever came to being in a fight. It was like, everybody just wanted to, just gravitate. I’m up and out of the table, and the only thing I was really going to do was just to try and prevent other people from getting involved because Jody really had the situation under control, and the guy wasn’t really trying to fight her once he realized what was going on. I don’t think he ever expected that Jody was going to do that. None of us really did, but anyway, I was just trying to keep people back and keep them away. When I went back to the table, Linda is sitting there, looking at me, and she says, “My god,” she says, “I thought you were going to get in a fight!” (Laughter) I said, “Fight? No, I wasn’t going to fight. I was just trying to make sure that Jody didn’t get into trouble because all the other people trying to climb in top of him and get involved,” because back then, some of those women would have really just loved to have gotten involved. I was like, “Okay guys, Jody’s handling it. Just, you know, let’s let her.” I mean, they really would have liked to have handled it because there was a lot of role changes there. A lot of that was going on, that was when I was coming out with all of this. Women that were the butch and the ones that were the femmes. Belmonte So this was even in the ’80s that was still entrenched here. Gearin Actually, yes. That would have been the early ’80s. Probably because Tulsa is still behind, you’ve got to remember. (Laughter) Everything gravitates from the coasts, you know, either the West Coast or the East Coast. It takes it a while to get to the middle part of the country. Belmonte Janet, you were describing a few minutes ago a rather volatile situation at a bar in Tulsa and alluded to… 20 �Gearin Yes. Very exciting. Belmonte …the existence of kind of defined butch/femme roles in the Tulsa lesbian community. This is interesting, given that this was the early ’80s. Tell me a little bit more about that. Was that common among the couples that you knew? Gearin Oh, absolutely. When you went to the bar, it was—a lot of times, it was very much—you knew who was butch, and you knew who was femme—couples, you knew who were couples. I can remember Linda and I laughing and saying, “Do we look like them?” I never did see myself as one way or the other, but it was like when you went to the bar, it was really—it had to be kind of clarified as to who was who. You know, I would have people say, “Well, is that your wife?” and these kinds of things. I’m going, “Linda [inaudible] ever going to be my wife?” (Laughs) you know, because I had never—we didn’t know. We really were both pretty green with all of this because I didn’t have a whole lot of experience, and she had absolutely none. It was kind of fun because we didn’t really know how we were to behave, or if we had to assume a certain role, or not assume a certain role, or how we were to interact with these women. Over a period of time, you just kind of—you don’t even look at it, you don’t even see it, but I can remember the first few times going into the bar and seeing women who really looked more like men than they did women and thinking, “Wow, this is kind of interesting,” and wondering, “Should I—do I need to do that?” You know, this sort of thing. “Or are they just going to think we’re both femmes? What are we going to both be?” Struggling with some of that and not really knowing, having no [inaudible] what a lot of these women had gone through, it was kind of interesting to learn that they were very much that way all the time. They were that way in their jobs. I can remember my brother worked with Telex—one of my brothers—and there were several of the women that worked at Telex. They worked on those boards; you know, they did the computer things like that, and he knew them. He knew these women. He knew that they were lesbians, so at that particular time—we’ve since talked about all of this, I’ve asked him about it in terms of—retrospectively. It was kind of interesting at that time that they really dressed that way, they looked that way, and they had their wives, they had their girlfriends, whatever. You were real careful. I did see some fights. It was a whole new world to me to see women fighting, you know, across the lines and things like this. “Oh no, that’s my woman. That’s my wife. Leave her alone.” It was an interesting time at the bar. 21 �Belmonte Sure. That’s fascinating because this is something other parts of the country have been documented as disappearing. It’s starting to disappear in the ’70s. Gearin We probably, as I said, weren’t there. We probably weren’t there because we’ve always been a little bit behind. Belmonte You mentioned that you started to get a little burnt out with the AIDS activism. Gearin More burnt out, not so much with the activism, but with the follies. That was a ten-year, a year-round job for us. Rehearsals were in my house. (Laughter) All this sort of stuff, you can’t imagine. We made props in my house, and you’ve seen the house on [inaudible], so thank god it was as big as it was. We’ve had rehearsals out in the backyard by the pool, in the yard, dance lessons—I mean, the whole nine yards. It was a rigorous undertaking because it took a big part of the year to plan it. You had to know what you were going to do in terms of music. You had to get the music. Then we would have auditions and get entertainers and people across the city to help us backstage because we had to have a lot of help backstage. It was really a huge, huge undertaking. We did this on a shoestring budget. We would just leave ourselves enough money at the end of the previous show—we would just leave enough money in our budget to get started again the next year. We were always on a shoestring, but I knew it was always going to come through. I wore lots of hats: I sold advertisements, walked into businesses in the city and tried to sell ads, sold tickets. We did what we had to do. It was like ten of us that were on the board; we were a working board, and we worked very hard. It was a year-round thing. Belmonte Why was follies disbanded? Gearin Primarily because we just burned out with it. After ten years, we did ten years, and it was just too much. We were extremely successful; it was a very—by the time we quit, we were really doing quite well financially with it because we were making a lot of money. We had a patron chair; we started doing that early on. Bob Caesar was one of our board of members, and Bob was very—he’s an interior designer like Charles Faudree—and he was very—knew a lot of people. When we first were getting started with this, we wanted to try and get into the community—the straight community, if you will, because the gay community was getting pumped out, I mean, money-wise. They were supporting all of the AIDS things going on. We really felt like Tulsa, as a whole, needed to know about it, and they also needed to contribute. We needed the money; we needed their support. There came a period in time while follies was doing this, and I believe it was like around ’92, ’93, ’94, about those three years, that AIDS and HIV 22 �became a real popular bandwagon for you to contribute to if you were in the straight world. We took a real big hook and advantage of that. Part of that was Bob helped us to get chairmen—our patron chair, who would lend their name to the event and give us their guest list. We had huge numbers of people that we got involved and bought tickets and came to the show that were straight. We brought in a lot of money that wasn’t being tapped into, and that was really a good thing. That was a really good thing. During the course of the show, I would always give some interesting statistics. I was the announcer. I never was on stage. I was always backstairs, behind the scenes, with the camera off the stage area. You just heard my voice, and I always was the one that would announce the acts and introduce them and do all of these neat little things. I would develop some kind of dialogue so that I would give some information and history during the course of the show about what was going on in Tulsa and nationwide and worldwide. Belmonte Are there any tapes of any of these shows? Gearin I may have some of them still around. I’m not sure if I do or not. I’ll look in the archives and see. Belmonte It would be wonderful to have some of those, copies of some of those. Do you recall, in conjunction with the work you did with AIDS, getting opposition from the community in Tulsa? Gearin Yes, I got a lot of doors slammed in my face when I would go and want to try and sell ads or something like this. People, “Oh no, I’m not supporting that. Those men deserve what they got.” That sort of thing, I got it a few times. Not too much, but I did get it from a few businesses and things like that when I would try to sell advertising. When you have somebody that’s very well-known in this community, and very powerful, and very rich, and very wealthy, and they’re behind your show; they’re your chairperson, that’s pretty hard to say no to. I found that I would make it clear who was our sponsoring chair and what was going to be our patrons. Once they found out that, then I opened a lot more doors and was really helpful to us in getting incredible amounts of help from printing at the program. We got our program usually printed free, Judy Rogers’ lithograph. We had Kery Walsh, who was our designer for that. He still probably is very active in the community. Kery was wonderful to do all of our graphic work for our program and our layout, and we had several—we had two board members that primarily just did nothing but work on our program and our posters. We had some very well-known artists do posters for us: P.S. Gordon, for one. We just had an overall response that just helped bring in more and more people and get more and more involved. As I said, when you have patrons that have a name for themselves, then you have a little bit more 23 �legitimacy. That helped us. It opened doors. It did open doors for us. It was just a matter of like, after ten years, you just got [inaudible] about it. Belmonte Right. So the last year of follies was… Gearin ’98. Belmonte Oh, so not that long ago. Gearin We did the first one in ’89 and did the last one in ’98. Belmonte How do you think the gay community in Tulsa has changed from the time you’re describing, the years of the club, and now? You’ve recently made the decision to be part of TOHR again. Gearin Back—I was an active member for, I guess, about four years, five years. Then to come back after all this time…. I missed kind of some of the old things, to be quite honest. It’s interesting. I know—like with TOHR, when I first was going there and was really actively involved, we had huge meetings. I mean, we might have a couple hundred people come to a meeting. It was lots of folks; that’s what they were involved in. I miss kind of that. I miss the [inaudible] of getting up, conducting the meeting, all the things that go with that. The little subcommittees that, you know—I did bylaws one year, and I’ll never do that again; that was a terrible job for TOHR. I do miss some of those older things that we had because it was really nice. Now, it’s pretty much just the board and not so much the whole community as a whole that’s involved. That was nice. That was a nice thing to do. It was a great time. Belmonte I hope we can get that back. Gearin That would be nice. I really think it would be nice. It was very much needed back then, and I suspect it still is probably very much needed, that people do need to be out. I think the difference—in terms of following along with that—the difference is that, I think, I now go out more to people’s homes, even more so than I did back then. Years ago, I was out to the bars and things like this quite a bit, doing things, but now, it’s like you have small dinners with friends, maybe there’s ten of you and maybe there’s eight of you. It’s not quite so many large functions that I go to. I still know people that I met in the late ’70s, the early’80s, and they’re still good friends and we still socialize and things like this. I kind of—this is one reason why I wanted to get back with TOHR, was to get back with the [inaudible], see how much change has there been? Sometimes when you’re in a relationship, you don’t always see things and do things. When I was in follies, that was year-round. Even though the gay community was very much involved in all of that, it was also the straight community, as well. It was like working both 24 �of them because there were people on the board that were gay, but there were people on our board that were straight. I was not doing a lot of the other social things that I was doing when I first got to Tulsa. I was getting my social needs met differently, I guess you would say. It was more smallerscale in terms of homes and things like this. Belmonte Politically, Oklahoma obviously has a lot of work to do on gay rights issues. What’s your sense as a long-term Tulsa resident? Gearin I’ve always thought that there’s a certain part of Tulsa that’s going to be the redneck part, probably no matter what. You’re going to meet people that have bias; they’re probably not going to change their minds. I worry less about changing people’s minds directly; I’ve always been somebody, who, if I can lead them there and they don’t know I’ve led them there, or I can push them there—and I’ve done this for patients. That’s, I think, why I’m successful as a therapist is, I let the patients talk their way through things. Eventually, I give them little guidance here and there, and eventually they come around to where I feel they need to be to be healthier. They would agree with that, I’m sure. It’s the same thing in terms of the gay community. It’s like, you know, sometimes we beat that wall and we don’t really need to be beating it. If we just let life go, people come around. They realize that this is a democracy. This is, you know—we all want to just be treated equally, and that “Oh my gosh, did you know that your brother’s gay?” You find out that you know somebody gay. Back then, we didn’t find out that because we kept it more of a secret. Now, I think you see that people do know somebody that’s gay or they know of somebody that’s gay, and it’s like “Okay. Well, they’re a nice guy,” or “They’re a nice lady, it’s okay.” I think as we’re out, and that’s the beauty, I guess, of being out, is that people will see and understand us and know us for the people that we are. Eventually, our sexuality is not going to be a big issue in that. We’re all going to get there; it’s just a matter of time. It’s a process that we all have to kind of go through. I think that’s kind of where we’re headed. I think that’s a positive thing. Being a little bit of along the conservative and an old hat, some of the new things that were going on, like with the gay marriages, and I’m sitting there going, “Am I appalled or not? How do I feel about this?” (Laughter) It’s like, “Parts of that scare me and parts of it not scare me, but parts of that bother me in a sense that—oh, I guess I get the people with honey, not put it in their face.” There’s a little bit—it’s a fine line. Sometimes I really have to put it in people’s face, but then I don’t know if I want to be the one that does it. It’s like, “Okay, I’ll just sit back and watch it, see what’s going to happen.” I don’t know that I could honestly be on the front part with some of that, either. I would probably be more inclined to be—unlike Vivienne. Vivienne’s probably out there leading all of this. I’m sure she’s probably 25 �been on the steps of San Francisco. I’m not really quite that way. I’m kind of more of a behind the person, but I’m not going to lie to you, either. If people ask, I generally will tell them. I’m not going to try and hide that. I’m one of those that doesn’t talk about it a lot, it just is. As you get to know me, you probably know that, or you’ll sense that, but we’ll talk about everything, talk about me as a person, as a human, that comes first. Belmonte I think we’re going to end on that note. Davis Well, I have one thing I was going to throw out to see. You remember the VA. What was the impact of the “Don’t ask, don’t tell” in that community? Belmonte That’s an excellent question. Gearin The military guys—it’s really—I’m in mental health, so everyone I work with personally is very progressive. You’ve got to understand that they’re not going to be the ones that think that. We’ve been working in therapy with people who have been gay for years, so it’s not an issue. I think for other people, we all kind of laugh at it. It’s like, you’ve got to be kidding. That was the dumbest—I still think that was such a huge error in judgement to even have that as part of the military. Gays have always been in the military. They got by; they did well. They weren’t out, for the most part, although I think, again, a lot of people probably knew that they were gay, but they didn’t flaunt it, so they left them alone, and they didn’t—they just managed to make it. I’ve had too many men that were very actively gay when they were in the military, but they were also discrete, too. It’s a line of—you have to be real careful with it because there are some serious repercussions; you get booted out. If you get a dishonorable discharge, that’s a terrible thing. I think most of the guys would probably like to just see it not be there at all. It’s almost like it was an embarrassment to have it. It probably caused more bad than it helped. That’s usually perception of the military men that I’ve talked with. I have a lot of straight guys that talked—they knew they were fighting next to a gay guy, but they couldn’t care less. In Vietnam or Desert Storm or wherever, if they were able to fire at the enemy and protect his backside, I guarantee you they didn’t care that he was homosexual. They cared that he was a good soldier because that’s really why they were there, was to be a good soldier. I guess overall, it was—I think it was—probably most of us would probably say it was a bad thing. Again, I think it was a bad thing because originally, Clinton wanted to get rid of it altogether. When he realized he wasn’t going to be able to do that because he didn’t have the power to do it, then they changed it. To be quite honest, I think it probably would have been better off just to have left it as it was. I’ve always felt that that was—I think probably 26 �most of the people that worked with the VA or veterans probably feel the same way. I think we’re already doing “Don’t ask, don’t tell.” I mean, when you really think about it, isn’t that kind of what we’ve been doing all along, to some degree in various ways? It’s always “Don’t ask, don’t tell.” I’ve had people ask me over the years, “Well, how did your brothers find out? What if somebody asked you?” I’m going to tell them. I figure if they ask me, then they’re wanting to know, otherwise they wouldn’t ask me. I want to tell them if they ask me. If they don’t ask me, I may not necessarily volunteer; it just depends. Depend on how comfortable I am. Belmonte Janet, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us this afternoon. Gearin You’re welcome. I’ve enjoyed it, thank you very much. Belmonte This completes our interview. ------- End of interview ------- Addendum – Janet added this additional information in March 2026: Janet finished her career with the VA in January 2013. This is a brief synopsis of her career highlights with special emphasis on her carryover of her HIV work within the VA system. “I am not sure of the date, but I was invited to attend a 1-day VA Conference in Dallas Texas. That conference basically brought me into the HIV approach about treatment and education of VA personnel across the country. Since my area of practice within the VA was in Mental Health, I was a bit confused as to why I was invited. The conference was led by Dr Bopper Deyton from the VA Central Office. At the end of the 1 day event I was asked to attend a more detailed 3-day training in Baltimore. It was at that training event that I had been selected to be one of an HIV Consortium that would work across the country to other VA Hospitals to train medical and nursing staff on the care and treatment of persons with HIV/AIDS that presented to the VA for care. It was to be one of the most gratifying and rewarding experiences of my career. As an aside note I was sent to Chicago for an HIV National convention. Dr Deyton met me at the Conference Center and sent me to sit beside his friend and mentor. I was stunned when during our introduction to each other he noted he was Dr. Anthony Fauci. It would be the first of several HIV meetings/Conferences that we would meet. 27 �As a “by the way” I learned that Dr Deyton learned of me through a mutual friend…. Dr Jeff Beal! 28 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2004] Janet Gearin Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 22, 2004 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on February 22, 2004. Born in Vinita, Oklahoma on February 3, 1947, Janet lived in Duncan, Oklahoma and graduated High School in Lindsey, Oklahoma. She attended University of Oklahoma College of Liberal Arts (previously Oklahoma College for Women) in Chickasha, Oklahoma. She attended the University of Colorado and received a master’s in clinical psychiatric nursing from the University of California, San Francisco. With aging parents, she returned to Oklahoma and practiced with the 9 Department of Veteran Affairs in Muskogee and then in Tulsa. Janet entered into a 25- year relationship with a fellow VA nurse, Linda Stevens. In the 1980’s, both got involved with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR), the predecessor to Oklahomans for Equality. Janet helped with the TOHR helpline and became a key volunteer in TOHR’s HIV/AIDS outreach and testing. In 1989, Linda, Janet and others revamped TOHR’s annual Follies Review (dance and song stage show) for HIV/AIDS programming support. The Follies Review was presented annually through 2008. She also served as a counselor and advisor to Shanti, an AIDS support program started in Tulsa in 1986, and served on the TOHR board. Subject The topic of the resource Janet Gearin Oral History Project Interview from February 22, 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Janet Gearin, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2004 AIDS Support Program AIDS testing AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV testing Department of Veteran Affairs follies HIV testing HIV/AIDs HIV/AIDs outreach HIV/AIDs testing hotline interview Janet Gearin Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Linda Stevens OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma College for Women oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Shanti Shanti Project TOHR TOHR Board of Directors Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Board of Directors Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights HIV Testing University of California University of California San Francisco University of Colorado University of Oklahoma College of Liberal Arts video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Janie Reeves Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcription of Laura Belmonte’s interview with Janie Reeves on November 19, 2005. Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research. Janie was born in Denver in 1971. She attended the University of Tulsa and became involved with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, the predecessor to Oklahomans for Equality. She served as board president in 1991. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 19, 2005 Subject The topic of the resource Janie Reeves Oral History Project Interview from November 19, 2005 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Janie Reeves, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2005 available at Center Board President Janie Reeves Dennis Neill interview Janie Reeves Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript TOHR TOHR Board of Directors transcript TU Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Board of Directors University of Tulsa video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/cb45fd2c080c696f642bbf3a4ec34ca2.mp4 5200eb31f5519513b3b1c578c0a4b556 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/0a9ad56686aff1c861791cbd6e559964.pdf 9f05611ad7684b1eccd5aa7a33466e4d PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Jeremy Simmons Interview Conducted by Dennis Neill Date: January 21, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, February 26, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Jeremy Simmons Keywords Jeremy Simmons, LGBTQ+, sexual orientation, HIV awareness, community advocacy, personal identity, religious background, nonprofit management, Tulsa, equality Takeaways  Jeremy grew up in a conservative, religious environment.  He navigated his sexual identity amidst societal expectations.  Experiences of bullying shaped his understanding of acceptance.  He identifies as more attracted to men but has explored bisexuality.  Performance art has been a form of self-expression for him.  Community engagement has been a significant part of his life.  He has worked with various organizations for HIV awareness.  Transitioning from OKQ to HOPE was a pivotal moment in his career.  Nonprofit management presents unique challenges and opportunities.  He believes in the potential for positive change in the community. Summary In this interview, Jeremy Simmons shares his journey of self-discovery and advocacy within the LGBTQ+ community. Growing up in a conservative, religious environment, he navigated the complexities of his sexual identity while facing societal expectations and bullying. His experiences shaped his commitment to community engagement and HIV awareness, leading to significant roles in various organizations. Jeremy reflects on the challenges of nonprofit management and expresses hope for the future of the LGBTQ+ community, emphasizing the importance of continued advocacy and support. 2 �Chapters 00:00 Jeremy Simmons Oral History Interview January 22, 2026 01:24:24 Introduction and Early Life 01:27:21 Religious Background and Identity 01:30:25 Navigating Sexual Orientation in Adolescence 01:33:35 Experiences of Bullying and Acceptance 01:36:31 Understanding Bisexuality and Self-Identification 01:39:24 Relationships and Social Circles 01:42:27 Coming Out and Community Engagement 01:45:21 Work History and Involvement with Equality Center 01:48:09 HIV Testing and Support Services 01:51:19 Challenges in Healthcare Access 01:54:15 Personal Experiences with HIV and Community Support 02:03:57 The Evolution of HIV Treatment and Public Perception 02:08:30 Community Outreach and Testing Initiatives 02:13:33 Navigating Funding Challenges in Nonprofits 02:20:23 The Impact of Government Regulations on Nonprofits 02:25:31 The Journey of Hope: From Formation to Growth 02:32:55 Reflections on Personal Growth and Community Engagement 02:40:16 Advocacy and the Changing Landscape of LGBTQ+ Rights 02:47:42 Looking Forward: Optimism for the Future Jeremy Simmons Oral History Interview January 21, 2026 Dennis Neill: Good afternoon. It is January, the 21st, 2026, and we're in the Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library at the Equality Center and we're having the opportunity to interview Jeremy Simmons. And Jeremy, would you state your name and give us some basic biographical information, like your birthday, your early growing up experiences, a little bit of your family background that you might want to share and your early education? Jeremy Simmons: Sure, Jeremy Simmons, I grew up in and around Bartlesville, so Washington County, so in the city of Bartlesville and it's, and in very small places like around Ramona and Tulala, like so in the middle of nowhere. At one point we had a 3 �house. It was like a half a mile away from anybody, so remote for some of that. I was born a long time ago and I'm much older now and I moved to Tulsa in 94 and that's where I've lived here over half my life and because it's been so long and like all of my adult life, I think of Tulsa as my home now. Dennis Neill: And where'd you do your elementary and high school work? Jeremy Simmons: That's a great question. I did it in different, at Caney Valley in Bartlesville, where the two schools that I was in and Wesleyan religious school at the beginningDennis Neill: is that the one in Bartlesville? Jeremy Simmons: Yes Dennis Neill: What year did you graduate from high school? Jeremy Simmons: Sometime in the 90s, and they have 56 peopleDennis Neill: Did you go immediately on to post-secondary? Jeremy Simmons: Not right away. I spent a little time at Tulsa Community College trying to sort of know what I wanted to do, and then I went to the University of Tulsa later in the 90s. I have an associate's degree in humanities from TCC and I had worked on a sociology degree that I did not complete. Dennis Neill: Okay, great, great, anything else that you can share with us about your family background, like siblings or other information you want to share about? Jeremy Simmons: So my life before I moved here was quite different and I don't really like to dig super deep into it. Just to be honest with you. I feel comfortable saying I grew up in extremely isolated rural areas, pretty religious background, as you can imagine. I did pre-k, kindergarten and first grade at the Wesleyan school, which is quite traditional conservative. So, coming from that background, although the interesting thing about it was kind of interesting going to the Weslyan School, I was surrounded by people from different countries and different races and nationalities, so then going to smaller schools and being not around that was sometimes more conservative, honestly, being in the public schools in a small town. Dennis Neill: Talk a little bit more about your early religious experience and how that's evolved over time. Any intersection with how you identify from a sexual orientation? Jeremy Simmons: Oh, that's a great question. So for me, in the way that I grew up, so all of my family was very religious and most of the people in my area were just very religious. So religion just dominated everything. And at one point for many years, next to a Southern Baptist Church, it was this like the second biggest building in town after the school. So it makes quite an impression. I was very Christian in a very traditional conservative way because I thought that that was there wasn't really any thought about it. It's like when you grow up in rural spaces a lot of times it's just like, everybody thinks that abortion is wrong and 4 �everybody thinks that homosexuality is wrong and everybody supports the troops and it's like they're sort of a far-right cultural line that blends with the religion and you just like 80- 90% of the people feel that way, or they pretend to. Yeah, so when I was quite young I was actually fairly conservative, which, looking back, it's kind of like okay, but then it's just kind of hard to integrate that old life with who I was later. But I also started making out with boys when I was a very young. Dennis Neill: Do you mind sharing what age you're talking about? Jeremy Simmons: Definitely by sixth grade, maybe by fifth grade range, roughly so. So even though everybody was far right religious, there was same-sex stuff and drinking. There were things that always happened. They were just very underground. You just had to be very, very careful about them, right? Dennis Neill: In that period, were you also trying to deal and date the opposite sex while you were in junior high, high school? How did you kind of blend those thoughts with your other aspects of your peers? Jeremy Simmons: That's another really great question and it's so hard to put into words. So, without, especially without doing like getting into psychobabble language, but cognitive dissonance is definitely a thing. I viewed myself as heterosexual and so I had girlfriends, but I didn't want to have sex with any of them and I did want to have sex with men and so, but it got to a certain point. as you get older, I think it's harder to even be gay undercover in some of those situations. I stopped doing anything with boys by probably 14, 15, definitely 16.. I remember by the time we were all driving age for sure, , like none of us were doing that anymore. It was considered like something that you just did as a kid and didn't talk about it anymore. So I just thought I genuinely thought for a while that if I just kept giving it a try, I'd meet the right girl. That's where my head was with all that. Dennis Neill: And did you go to like the proms or the other school events like that with… Jeremy Simmons: Very weirdly, yeah, I know, it was like when I talk to people who grew up, they want to talk to people my age or older. I come across a lot of parallels, or even younger people who grew up in rural areas still like who grew up 10, 20 years later than me. They're like: oh yeah, I mean, you've had to have a girlfriend. That was just a part of it. So also to, I was also kind of smaller. I wasn't super athletic. Not getting picked on meant being conservative and being straight and doing certain things. Dennis Neill: So did you have bullying experiences? Jeremy Simmons: Oh sure Dennis Neill: Over what reasons? Or what characteristics? Jeremy Simmons: I mean sometimes I would get called a faggot or or a sissy or whatever, something that, some type of equivalent of that. Some of that was 5 �probably more intentionally directed. And then some of it is just things that people say that are hurtful, like, if someone's slightly effeminate or smaller framed. They're gonna be compared to being girlish, separate from their gender identity or sexuality. I think it's just a jab, right, it's something that could be hurtful. And then some of it felt like more directed. I remember there was a lot of different experiences. Sometimes a lot of kids that were like one to three years older than us and that kind of range would try and isolate us and pick on us, and there was a one time where some older kids may just take our clothes off and I thought something like sexual assault was going to happen and it didn't, fortunately. That was one of the weirder things, but that's one of those things that happens when you get a bunch of other kids that are all supposed to be straight and hyper conservative. Dennis Neill: Were there any of these peers as you're growing up through high school that were more clearly out and comfortable with their different sexual orientations? Jeremy Simmons: No, not so. It depends on where. Probably in Bartlesville, but I didn't go to school there- very much, I think, and definitely not in the Weslyan school. Like you literally couldn't be gay and be at the Weslyan school, like that's a part of their rules. So it's like that wouldn't have been it, there wouldn't have been an option. At that time they only had school up through sixth grade and I quit before then. There are probably kids that that, looking back on it, seemed more effeminate or seem more physically intimate with the same-sex. That might have been something, but when you're young enough, that's all, that's okay. , there's a certain level like there's a little bit of bullying. But unless it gets like, unless you get really affectionate or something , like a little bit of that's okay. It's whenyou get into junior high kind of…Sixth grade and up is when I think people really start having more expectations. That was my experience anyway, and so everything started to get more codified, going to the dances and having regular girlfriends, you are serious enough to change exchange class rings, like there are certain rituals. It's like you needed to participate, and it was much easier for you if you did participate in that. So to not participate in that, even if you were straight and cisgendered and healthy, like, even if you were able, but like even if you didn't have a lot of bullying potential, if you removed yourself from the heterosexual norms, you definitely made yourself a target, so you had to either be- and some kids could do it. I remember the few people that did it- they had to have like a schtick, like they had to be the stoner with the motorcycle or something, like they had to have something, like you could be a black sheep in some, in some ways, but you couldn't just be like, oh, I'm just not gonna date me, buddy, right? Dennis Neill: Talk a little bit more about the process of when you finally decided what your orientation was, and how do you identify now that kind of that path that you followed in getting comfortable with how you currently identify? Jeremy Simmons: Right after high school, I decided that I was bisexual and I actually had sex with women, but very little and I didn't hate it. So bisexuality is somewhat applicable to me, I feel, but it was definitely for me. 6 �It was more of a transitional phase, and I hate saying that because a lot of people sort of pigeonhole bisexuality in general as that, and I very much don't feel that way. There's definitely bisexuality and pansexuality and all the other things are valid for me. I'm just very strongly attracted to other men. I had one girlfriend that was just like you're just not that into this, you just need to be gay. I spent two semesters briefly in Stillwater. I always forget about that in interviews and I was not very successful at school there because I was just interested in figuring out my sexuality and drinking, and doing whatever, so that actually I always forget that part that played. But even though it was just a couple of semesters, it played a huge role in my development because that's because I don't think I would have been able to be bisexual in Bartlesville or Ramona or wherever Copan, anywhere else around there. I mean like none of those places would have tolerated that. At the time in the 90s, I think a lot of people thought that that was just a bullshit thing, even amongst gay people and straight people. I think a lot of people were like, oh, there's just two genders and everybody's either straight or very gay. Everything seemed very bipolar in the 90s. You were just like: I'm this or that. Dennis Neill: Have you ever been married? Jeremy Simmons: No. Dennis Neill: What about any significant long-term relationships that you want to share. Jeremy Simmons: I dated a guy named Robert who's still saved in my phone as bastard ex-boyfriend for a couple of years in the 90s. He's actually a very dear friend. Once we figured out that we were supposed to be friends, everything was great. Um, that's my longest relationship. So when you asked earlier how I identify myself, I try not to do a lot of labels. I just I find it kind of constraining and tedious and then even when you get, even when you pick a label, then five years from now, like the culture and the language is going to change. It just seems like, oh, I'm just human. But the question is very valid, because I am much more into men than women. I feel comfortable as a male, and have always been perceived as more male than female. I feel like it's important to state this is where I come from, this is what I am. But I've had fun dressing up as women. I won by comp, by by crowd vote, at an 80s prom with the full canes. I won prom queen dressed up as Annie Lennox one year. So it's like I'm not really a drag queen all the time, but I feel very comfortable being, I felt comfortable being intimate with women. I feel comfortable being in women's clothes. But I feel more comfortable as a man and more comfortable being with other men. Dennis Neill: Do you consider your drag experience like performance art when you've been on stage, or have you actually been on stage? Jeremy Simmons: Nnot in a traditional way where I would get tips, no, It's been fun, something I've done a handful of times successfully and it was very interesting. 7 �To explain more about me to- I am a little bit of an experience junkie, so I like to fully understand things by immersing myself in them, without doing something like going really hardcore, then I don't feel like I've understood something. But a lot of times I'll do something like dress up in drag. I also was on stage for an S&M ball that my friends did and it's very fun, it's very engaging, but then I'm like: got it done, so, and I don't really know how to put that into words when it comes to…when you talk about sexual identity, because some people like, well, you're a sex addict and I was like absolutely not, like I haven't had sex since before COVID. Sexual sex is very low priority for me, right, but asexuality also doesn't feel right. It's like I say one thing and somebody's always like: oh, so you're asexual and I'm like: no, like I'm physically capable of having sex and I'm interested in maybe doing it again. , probably with a guy now in your network of friends. I have a huge network of friends. So that's one of the nice things about not dating or not having kids: it gives you a lot of time to follow personal interests and develop friend networks. So, yes, I have tons of friends here and I never have enough time to keep up with all of them, which is lovely. I have some that are much closer, but I don't know, when I was younger it was much more important for me to identify as gay and I think because- but I think a part of that was because I was told that that was wrong and because it was so much harder to do that in the 90s- be openly gay, especially if you were young and didn't have a ton of money. I think for people who have a lot of money or people who live in certain cities, it's always been easier for anything . A lot of that identity stuff was very important to me then, and dating was very important to me. Then the 2000s hit, I just got less interested in it and so every now and then I'll date and it just seems to run its course faster and it's done. Dennis Neill: Did you immediately get acclimated to the gay and lesbian community, like through the bars or other social activities? Jeremy Simmons: Yeah, Dennis Neill: And what was kind of some of your first experiences, going out and socializing like locations? Jeremy Simmons: Yes,in the 80s and 90s at a certain point it was okay to go out to after-hours clubs and and whatever your age was, and then I think maybe 92 to 94 range, before I moved here, they changed the city, passed law saying that they couldn't do that anymore. When I was a baby, like I remember- I remember going to Icon that did after-hour stuff and I didn't have my driver's license yet, so I was probably 15 at the oldest. And while that wasn't a gay club, it was a very gay-friendly place. Yeah, I remember the name, but where is the location? It used to be on Peoria, Brookside proper, close to where, I think it was in or near where Sharkey's is right now. Dennis Neill: Okay, so it was on that side [east] of the street? 8 �Jeremy Simmons: Yep, on the east side, definitely. Because at one time there was also what, Concessions? Dennis Neill: Concessions was across the street, very close there. Jeremy Simmons: Icon was great. And it was definitely, for somebody who was trying to figure themselves out, being in an environment like rural Washington County, and then coming there where there were people dressed in drag, and there was goth people, and there was ravers, and there was weird old bikers, and people were doing drugs all over the place. And so that was a very different world. It was very interesting. It was very fun for me. I was very young, so I was a little too timid to get too involved with anything, but it was definitely fun to be a fly on the wall at that time. While I didn't grow up here, I do remember things from the 80s and earlier 90s from here, because I've always lived near Tulsa. I remember coming out to some of those spaces that were definitely gayadjacent. And like many other men my age, around that time, I went to the Toolbox before I was 21, and that's the bar, which is now the Eagle on 3rd. I don't remember when, but it would have been, I don't know, before I moved here in 94. Dennis Neill: Did you live on your own initially? Jeremy Simmons: I had roommates for quite a while. Dennis Neill: Gay, straight, mix, were they your roommates? Jeremy Simmons: I mainly lived with a straight couple at first, but a lot of the crew that I was in were kind of ambiguous. I fell in with a crew of people that were more in the rave scene. I think that they were, and they were doing, there were tons of drugs all the time. I remember that much. I think there was a little bit of like vague bisexuality, but most of them were straight. Dennis Neill: How about once you left the high school environment and went on for post-secondary and then up to today, have you personally experienced any discrimination and prejudice with regard to your sexual orientation or how people perceive your sexual orientation or close friends that have experienced that? Jeremy Simmons: Oh, sure. I've actually experienced fairly little. Well, I feel like it's fairly little. Sometimes when I describe my life story to people who grew up in other progressive places, they're like, Oklahoma sounds like a shithole. But I also, once I was here, I was just like, I'm gay if you don't like it, fuck off. I made a lot of decisions based off of being safe as a gay person. I do remember one of my first apartments that I lived in by myself on Riverside, the guy made me put down an extra deposit because he said that if I got sick from AIDS, it was something like that I was more of a risk. I was like, but I don't even have HIV. But he was like, no, you're welcome here. It's just anybody with health problems or anybody that's risky has to put down an extra $250 deposit, which was a lot of money at the time. And I thought that was weird. I still think it's weird looking back on it. I was originally an employee at the Equality Center and then Hope split off, but then we still worked with the Equality Center forever. I was here one time when a guy 9 �came in and broke a lamp in the hallway and said he was going to something, shoot everybody. I don't know. That would have been…It was when we were on Brookside, and so it would have been after 95, but not a lot after 95. Dennis Neill: Yeah, we were up in there from about 96 to about 99. Jeremy Simmons: I was going to say maybe 97, roughly. So again, when people ask me to do the dates, it's kind of hard because I have to pick anchor events. I don't remember years well. So I know that it was after we'd phased out the 42nd Street Clinic and integrated into there, and that's when we were becoming more public, as OkEq was becoming more public about being an LGBT center. I think that even at the beginning, even when we were doing stuff, there was an effort to kind of have a little bit of a vague gray umbrella around a lot of the language that we used. And then when that center started on Brookside, that just wasn't working anymore. It's like, this is where gay people are. Dennis Neill: So was that your first experience with TOHR, or when we had the location there at the 41st apartment, were you ever involved in that small space that we had with the hotline and a little community? Jeremy Simmons: Yeah, so like I said, I think in 95 I came there for services, and then in 96 I came back for services early and started volunteering there. I had a traditional day-hour job, I think, at the time, and they had night clinics Mondays and Thursdays, which I think they still do to this day. So I was volunteering on Monday or Thursday. One of the night clinics, once a week I would come in and volunteer a few hours. Yeah, and to refresh my memory, so we had the space there at like 39th and Harvard on the east side, where the HIV testing center was like at 42nd and Harvard on the west side. Dennis Neill: So were you volunteering there? Jeremy Simmons: The 42nd, yeah, the clinic. So it's like, yeah, you go just past 41st and Harvard, take the right end on the west side there, go into that little clinic next to Tulsa Cares. We answered the gay, I think they called it the gay hotline at that time, something to that effect. That went into the clinic because we were staffed. And so I did get a very limited amount of training, and sometimes I would take calls for that. So it was usually clinic calls, but the other line came in too. And honestly, I didn't even know. It wasn't until then that I realized that the clinic was not a part, I knew that it was separate from Tulsa Cares. It wasn't just in a separate building, but it wasn't until then, later, I think it wasn't until 96 that I even really knew that there was an LGBT group that was in the space. Dennis Neill: Walk me through your early work history from the time you left college through the early years. Jeremy Simmons: Okay. Well, I did a lot of this and that. There wasn't a lot that was super interesting. When I was a teenager, I worked for my grandpa. He had a garage in Ramona, and so I did that for a while. But just surface stuff like pumping gas and 10 �bringing people parts, nothing too complicated. And then I got a job when I was, I think, 16 or 17, which sounds crazy now, but back then everybody just did that at Walmart in Bartlesville, and that was before Walmart became this massive sprawling show that it is today. So I did just miscellaneous stuff. I moved here, and I was doing Thrifty Car Rental which had their corporate headquarters here, and I think that they've been merged into Dollar, Avis, or some other group now, but they were a standalone car reservation place that was based in Tulsa for a long time, and I worked the reservation center for maybe a couple of years. And I was doing that while I was volunteering with OkEq. Dennis Neill: Is that when they relocated what is now Legacy Towers? Jeremy Simmons: Right, around 31st and Yale. And that was kind of interesting because I got to talk to people from all over the world. But it ran its course too. It was never like a permanent thing. And so then, in 96, I was volunteering with the Equality Center, not thinking about it, and they offered me a job, which kind of surprised me. I don't really know why. I think so and again, I just, , I grew up in a pretty small town and I come from pretty conservative background, and so I think people were like: you have to work and own your own business and and make yourself successful that way, or you have to go and work for a big company and make a lot of money. There's the concept of, I don't know, being a social service provider, , or an educator, or something like that it just wasn't really on my radar, which is weird because I was volunteering. So on the one hand, it was right because I was taking my time to help for free, so I had that in my nature. But then also I was like, oh, this isn't something people can do for a living, right, but it offered about the same pay as I was making Thrifty and I was like, yeah, fuck it. So it was kind of a lark, honestly, to start working at OkEq. Dennis Neill: Who actually hired you? Jeremy Simmons: Claudette Peterson. Dennis Neill: She was head of the testing program? Jeremy Simmons: Yes, right. Dennis Neill: Who was it before then? Jeremy Simmons: His first name was Jason, so Jason was doing the position that I filled. I don't know who was in charge before Claudette. Dennis Neill: I think it might have been Roger Morris. Jeremy Simmons: Yeah, that name is not familiar to me. Dennis Neill: Walk us through a little bit about your involvement there and then the transition process with regard to the testing clinic, as you recall, and the staffing changes that you recall. Jeremy Simmons: Sure, so it was also kind of interesting because I thought, because it's a medical job, and I thought, well, you have to be certified medically, but 11 �the state was doing finger stick testing. They were just doing a little finger stick, taking a little bit of blood and putting on a blotter card. Didn't have to be a phlebotomist, didn't have to be a nurse, didn't have to be anything. They trained you how to do that and it was surprisingly easy, and so I think that a lot of people were terrified coming in and so just making it feel normal and being nice to people was the biggest part of the job. That was the most important thing by far, and we had, I think, four employees at the time and that would shift quite a bit based off of state funding. When the state contracts would change, like the positions would come and go. It felt a little chaotic and it did for a long time, honestly, and it's a challenge for a lot of nonprofits, even as they get bigger. If the government funding is such a big chunk and then their priorities shift, then it's like, well, you have to be more of a counselor now, or you have to be more medical now, or you have to do group sessions now, and so you just kind of have to roll with whatever the grant says or get replaced. Fortunately they were pretty good…the state and OkEq and then later HOPE separately, were all pretty good about doing the trainings that were necessary because a lot of them weren't that complicated. They always kept it to where less medical or non-medical staff, non-counseling staff could do the jobs, because it just wouldn't have been an affordable otherwise, because we always needed a lot of free volunteers and low-paid staff or it just wouldn't have worked. Dennis Neill: When you did the finger stick at that time, was that still the requirement to send it off and wait two weeks. Jeremy Simmons: Right. Dennis Neill: What was your experience with that? Knowing folks were coming in getting tested. Did all of them, or a majority of them, come back and the experience you had when you were having to deliver a positive result? I mean, was there hope at that period of time? Jeremy Simmons: Not really. It was really really rough. It was hard getting people to come in, but if they came in they usually came back for their results. So if they were committed. We had something like 75- 80 percent return rate, which I always thought, oh, that's just so, so many people aren't getting their results. But at a lot of testing sites it was like 60 percent or less. So we actually had a good follow-up rate. I think a part of that was just being so openly gay-friendly and non-judgmental about drug use and sex workers and all the other things that people might get worked up about. We did have a lot of people come back in. It was quite, I remember, being from experiencing from the other side- like waiting for 10 to 14 days to get a result back was felt very stressful. While protease inhibitors came out in the 90s, their use and full understanding wasn't, wasn't in place yet. It wasn't until the early 2000s where that started to kind of shift. It took a little bit longer to get it fully ingrained- where we can have these long-term undetectable status kind of thing, a different ballgame. So then there really wasn't a lot that you could do. Getting tested really was more about hoping that you were negative,and then if you found out that you had HIV, then it was a little bit more about when am I going to need hospice care? How am I gonna live a fulfilling life for 20 years? It was more about okay, at a certain point this is going to catch up with me. 12 �Dennis Neill: The folks that did test positive, did you all have a referral list of doctors and counselors that you could provide to help them on their path? Jeremy Simmons: Sort of. There were always people providing services here, but not a lot, and it if you didn't have the right health insurance, it could be very difficult to get into the right people. I remember early on there was a guy named Jeffrey BealI'm sure you remember Dr. Beal- who was like I'm gonna make a clinic that focuses on HIV care and does a good job of it and it's gay, affirming and doesn't matter if people do some drugs or have hep C to or any that like. But a lot of places wouldn't take anybody with HIV. Or if they would, they wouldn't take any other problems, like if you had hep C at the same time or if you couldn't pass a drug test or if you didn't have good insurance or any number of things, because it was already kind of a stretch for them to deal with HIV. So we had some resources. They were few and far between and some of the ones that did it, like Dr. Beal, could quickly get booked up. So, yes, technically, there were resources, but for many people if you lived outside of Tulsa, if you didn't have health insurance, if you didn't have disposable income, if you had a comorbidity, you weren't really going to get care or very good care. Dennis Neill: In addition to Dr. Beal, did you work closely with Ted, his partner, who was providing counseling services. Jeremy Simmons: Fortunately, most of our test results were negative. When we would get a positive test result, people handled that wildly differently. That case where you just felt like, wow, this is gonna be a really tough case, both for you emotionally as well. Sure. So there are some people who like, under underneath it all, have a have a lot of cynicism or cynicism or optimism about life, and so this was definitely a job that taught me a lot about that. Because some people who have really terrible circumstances already and then we're getting HIV positive result, we're like, well, this is a hassle, we're gonna navigate it as best we can. And then some people- it was just all they could think about was how they were going to die. it was very clear, they were like, oh, and also some people wouldn't go into care because then they couldn't let anybody know is how they felt. Even if they had health insurance and even if they lived in Tulsa and had disposable income and didn't have a comorbidity, they might have been so closeted about their sexuality and in some cases, even if they were openly gay and had everything going for them, they felt like they could not let anyone know they had HIV or they would be shunned at the bar or they might be kicked out of an apartment or lose access to a kid or lose a job, which are things that definitely did happen to people. Not extremely often, but regularly, so the fear of them happening was much bigger than the actuality, but they were things that regularly occurred and so it made it made it kind of difficult. Trying to get people into counseling was always great. Some people would spiral and just party and not go to the doctor and their health conditions and overall life would get much, much worse. So not suicide by direct action, but definitely like, well, if I have five more years, I'm just going to enjoy it. 13 �Dennis Neill: How would you compare the percent, you said, fortunately, it was quite low on the positive side in the 90s. How does that compare with today, would you say, the more recent pattern? Jeremy Simmons: It's definitely shifted way down. There was a lot of things happening. It's just, it's a very different, from a public health perspective, communicable disease perspective, it's a very different game now. So back then, there weren't great treatments, like you could get on AZT and maybe combine that with something else, maybe get off and on AZT. There were different things that you could do. And it was sort of the chemotherapy approach. We're just like, hey, we're going to bombard your system with a bunch of toxicity that's going to kill the HIV more than it kills your healthy tissue, but it's definitely going to kill your healthy tissue. So you're going to get sick at a certain point if you stay on AZT or any of these other antivirals at high doses enough to actually help you. It was kind of a gamble. People had to just do their best with it. Now, not only are people living longer, but their health outcomes are much better and they're much less likely to transmit. So we had a lot of people who would get very sick from HIV or very sick from the medications or some of both and try and balance that back and forth. But meanwhile, they were often having a high viral load or a moderate viral load. And so their long-term health outcomes were never going to be great and they were highly infectious to other people. While not everybody fully understood that at the time, enough people understood it. You were shunned if you had HIV was often the case, but not by everyone. It didn't bother me, because I'm in the office around it all the time. But I knew that I was not the norm. There was so much fear among so many gay men that they might get it too. And even if you weren't worried about directly having sexual or blood contact with somebody, I just think a lot of, a lot of gay men looked at other gay men as, oh, well, they're going to get sick soon, sooner rather than later, , and they are potentially infectious. So we have to be more careful around them. There was, even amongst ourselves, I think there was a lot of people, there was a lot of, I think, serosorting is a term I've heard, where it was like there were groups of HIV positive men within gay men that were still, that would still hang out and have community. Which is why places like we talked about earlier, like Our House, were much more relevant at that time. But it's such a different thing now. We would often get 5% or higher HIV rates. Still over 90% of our test results were coming back negative pretty regularly. That would fluctuate a little bit month to month or year to year. But oh, when you looked at year long stretches and multi-year long stretches, it was pretty consistently under 10%, sometimes less than 5%. Now, as hope evolved and even got bigger and started testing more people, like sometimes the positivity rate would be less than 3%, less than 2%. You see a lot less of it. And the biggest part of that is the viral load being much more manageable means that people aren't going to accidentally give it to other people. 14 �Dennis Neill: I know there was an effort at one point in time to really reach out to the African American community with regard to testing. There was actually an organization that partnered with testing to reach out to the African American community. Were you part of that effort? Do you remember the special grants I think that organization received? Jeremy Simmons: I partnered with them. So there was, Derek Davis was very involved, Donald Rose. And this is that thing about human memory. Tall guy, what was his name? Dennis Neill: FUSO [Friends in Unity Social Organization] was the name. Jeremy Simmons: The interesting thing is we just always called it FUSO. They never spelled it out, so like that was the incorporated name. And they at one point they- Renfro was also a guy who was very active with them and I worked with [R.F.] Renfro and then he died, which was one of the…sorry, I'm usually very nonemotional these things, but every now and then he was a very sweet person and not that…that sounds like a shitty thing to say, like no one deserves to die from something so painful. He was involved with this group. He was so sweet and he was so bright and was so healthy and then, like a year, he was gone. Sorry, that's one of the ones that's always still really hard for me to talk about. Dennis Neill: He was not only part of that organization but a close friend as well? Jeremy Simmons: He was a friend, yes, and I knew him a lot better than many of the others and worked with him. It was very surreal, I think, when it came to the clients and I knew people in real life who had HIV too. I just had enough of a wall built up where I could still be engaged with then and care about them. I think that the grant, the process kind of fell away. He was a guiding force behind it, Derek [Davis] was very engaged, I think, Donald, and was as well…and I'm- I'm sorry I'm blanking on that, still blanking on the guy. I can see his face and he's a very tall and he would come up here once in a while. The way I understand it, it's just a lot of those grants, but a lot of those things fluctuate, and so sometimes too- I'm trying to say this politically correct- sometimes the funding sources change so radically that it it it becomes apparent that either someone doesn't know what the fuck they're doing or they're intentionally sabotaging the programs , and it can be hard to tell, because if we're talking about stuff that can start at the federal level and can have lots of intermediaries. For example, when we we formed HOPE as a separate breakaway, in part because state legislators were going after LGBT organizations and OkEq wasn't 100% doing something right on the financials and it was something that a lot of nonprofits would do- shell games with money, but it was also something that if someone wanted to pull the funds, they could do it right. While it was something that a lot of people did and it wasn't a problem, when you live in a place like Oklahoma, when someone goes on the warpath against you, it's just like okay. But even when we did everything we were supposed to do and became a health organization that focused on gay services instead of a gay organization, so we wouldn't get as much grief- the CDC cut funding to the whole state for all HIV programs because the state was just fucking things up so much. 15 �There's a lot of at state and federal levels and I think that I don't want to speak too much for a few. Because I knew them well and I love Renfro and I still keep up a little bit with Derek and Donald…I don't know all of the details there- they were there and it was great to see them being there. And when we phased out of the 42nd office, we moved over and had two or three offices were kind of designated to the HOPE wing or that. That's not what they called it then. They called it just something else simple like the HIV Testing Clinic or the HIV Services or something more generic like that. And then FUSO had a small office in the Equality Center on Brookside. Briefly. Dennis Neill: Talk a little bit more about that transition from 1998 when it became its own nonprofit. How did that whole process, and then when you felt like the ship was getting righted, as far as the relationship with the funders like the state and so on. And the various locations that you've experienced in HOPE testing. Jeremy Simmons: So, as I mentioned, we had some state funders come to us and said, hey, the state is going after anything that's too drug-friendly, anything that's too gay-friendly, and they're not going to give you money next year, probably. If you stay here, they also might audit you and they might end - was happening to an Oklahoma City agency that got shut down right after that. So, I felt like that was pretty sage advice. Dennis Neill: Do you remember the name of the Oklahoma City organization? They started something called the AIDS Support Program. Jeremy Simmons: It was something that hadn't been around forever and then went away. I can't remember it. And they had, because they were a part of an sort of an LGBT organization, someone there, an employee, had promoted some kind of material from NAMBLA, the North American Man-Boy Love Association. And that was just like the grossest, dumbest thing, They were very, like at their core, that group, it's kind of like when you talk to certain people, there's like the public pitch, but at their core, they were very much about grooming and having sex with very young, under 18 people. That was a core part of that NAMBLA group. So it's like, you don't touch them. You don't have to listen to their pitch too much and you kind of dig into what's like what's going on. That's what did them in. I don't even know that they were necessarily promoting something that would have been child molesting oriented. They just did something with that group. At the time, I remember having this conversation with Nancy McDonald and I was kind of against her, but then as I looked back on it, because I wanted to do a leather S&M focused HIV group and just call it what it was. And she was like, no, that's not smart. And I was like, well, okay. That would not have been good. There's just certain things you can't do here or you're gonna get on somebody's radar. That's how it was in the nineties. I think this was actually before we split away from OkEq. I don't remember exactly. I just remember she was one of the ones and I didn't know her very well and I always liked her and respected her, but we, she was very, very cautious compared to what I wanted to do. In retrospect though, I get it. It's one of those things where I was like, I'm happy to say that I would have made the wrong decision on that call. 16 �There’s just certain things you just couldn't do without raising too many red flags and then the next thing , and they're going to find a way. First they'll audit you and then if you're not doing everything right, which many nonprofits weren't in the eighties and nineties, when you really look into it… like we were on a reimbursement contract, not a grant saying we could spend whatever. So we had to use the money and then get reimbursed. If you didn't do it in just the right way, if you did it and people would be like, oh well, but we have to pay the lights and so we're gonna do this with that, then we'll catch up and pay that. At the end of the year, would it all work out? Sure. But you can't, when you're dealing with the Feds in general or when you're dealing with hostile state-level people, you can't shell game with the money at all. Or you can maybe for a year or five years or ten years, like you can for a while. But at some point they're gonna catch you and be like, no, no, you didn't do this exactly right according to this contract. And so now we're gonna pull all your funds and mark you as someone who can't be funded again. Dennis Neill: So in the current day is the HOPE deal where it's a reimbursement type of process as opposed to…. Jeremy Simmons: as opposed to a straight grant? Yep. So that HIV money, ever since I've been involved since 96, whether it was for anybody, like OkEq. HOPE, Tulsa Cares, anybody, whether it's CDC-based, HRSA-based, this is what you do. They'll sometimes make exceptions if you can deal with them directly federally. So there are some exceptions. But most people get reimbursed through the state as an intermediary. And the state's like, you have to do all these things. You have to show us that you've paid for it, and then we'll reimburse you. If you get really lucky, even if you're doing everything right, you're jumping through all the hoops, and you're spending all the money exactly right, and going to all that work, something like COVID will come along. They just won't pay you for five months. Doing that work can be really tough on the people at the top trying to figure out the money. It is challenging for everybody. It always cracks me up when people want to start nonprofits. And they're like, well, we'll get government money. And I'm like, no. You have to have so much liability insurance before certain government agencies will even want to touch you. And that's cost prohibitive to a lot of places. It's like there's just all these big things you have to have in place. And most of them now require annual audits. And if not annual, you will, at least every second or third year, have a serious, deep audit. You have to have all your time ducks in a row, because even trying to do the right thing. We got better as we split away, we were like, OK, we're going to be more legit about money. We still made mistakes. We got better over time. There's always gray areas. , they can come in and be like, well, you're not separating the gloves that you bought from the state health department money from the gloves you're buying for this. And so now you're going to have to pay us back for these gloves, because we can't prove by a visual check that you're the blah, blah, blah. 17 �But we're using all the free gloves you give us, and then we're spending our own money buying other gloves on top of that. Does that not show you that we're using all of the gloves? Anyway, any state or federal agency, if they want to cause problems for you, they can come in and say, oh, well, you didn't do this exactly right. And sometimes it's not even in the contract, which is the most frustrating. , when it's like, OK, we did everything according to the contract. I'm like, well, but this is still an expectation. Dennis Neill: Did you say it was 96 when you first started with the testing? Do you recall what month you started with testing? Jeremy Simmons: I became an employee in the summer. I believe it was July 1st. Because at that point, the state's contract, their annual calendar started something in the summer, June 1st, July 1st, August 1st, something like that. Dennis Neill: And was it HOPE at that point in time? Jeremy Simmons: It was. Dennis Neill: Can you tell us what it was and how that transitioned? Jeremy Simmons: So when we were doing it at first, while Claudette was still here, when we would answer the phone, I would just say it was something very generic but plain, like HIV Testing Clinic, or something really just direct. I don't remember what it was that we said. I don't think anybody was too uptight about it at the time. But we weren't like, thanks for calling the Equality Center, or thanks for calling OkEq, or thanks for calling whatever. It wasn't about branding or anything. It was just like, you've called. Because in part, that building we were in was separate, and it was literally only for… When the people came in for the gay hotline, it rang on a different line. So we needed to answer that as like something, Oklahoma gay hotline, or something. We might have used OkEq as part of that, or TOHR. For a long time. It wasn't until it was not until probably mid-97 to late 97 that I think, we started getting warnings that the state was gonna be auditing people that weren't doing things right. The state was coming for gay dollars. At a certain point before we left, we were like, okay, we need to differentiate ourselves. To be perfectly honest, many of us that were doing the actual work were like, oh yeah, we're gonna have to become a separate financial institution, because this thing where- and it didn't happen all the time, but occasionally we wouldn't get paid or we would have to sit on mileage reimbursements and we weren't making a lot of money. And that's the one sure way to piss your employees off and be like, hey, we actually have to do this stuff with the money instead. So your paychecks gonna be next week, or we're gonna give you a paycheck but you need to sit on it for eight more days, or whatever. And we started calling ourselves HOPE right before we left, but I don't remember when. Dennis Neill: Do you know how that name came about or who created… 18 �Jeremy Simmons: That's a good question, because and- and I looked back- when we did a history project thing and I was like I think I incorporated us both times and Ithere's three people that incorporated HOPE. It was originally HIV outreach, prevention education incorporated and then about a year and a half later we changed it to health outreach, prevention, education. And I remember much more vividly the second conversation because there was this huge debate about whether we were going to be an HIV specific organization or not and branch out into Hep C services and etc. At the beginning I don't recall, but I and Christy Frisbee and Johnny Eilert's were the three people that incorporated the organization as HIV Outreach. So I was involved. I was like oh, yeah, that's my signature, so it is interesting what you kind of remember and kind of don't. But I don't remember a lot of conversation about it. I think for me at the beginning part I was like this was also the 90s, was a different time and I was much younger and I think at the time I was like branding, shmanding, Now I have much, I have much more appreciation for it, but at the time I was like oh, yeah, sure, yeah, we'll call it the this. It was like we have to keep the services going and if we don't, I think if we don't break away, they're gonna come after OkEq, sorry, TOHR. It's hard for me to use that name for some reason, even though I used it, and so the funny thing is technically I was an employee of TOHR . I was paid from Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, so I saw that name all the time. It's just merged, now OkEq. There was definitely a desperation. There was a lot of board discussion and some of it got quite heated because a lot of people felt like no, no, no, this is just blustering, which I don't think was true, but also I get it. It's like sure somebody, some random people- the state- say this and they're like: have them come to the meeting. No, that's not how it works. They're telling us this as a favor because they like us and they want the program to keep going, and they're seeing what's happening in Oklahoma City and it's duh, it's like Tulsa's gonna be next. That's what a lot of times the state people do. They start in Oklahoma City and then, if they have enough steam and need more attention or whatever, then they're just like: oh yeah, let's go after those guys in Tulsa and Lawton and Bartlesville, wherever else. Once we finally agreed to split apart, we stayed at the old building for a while and then we ended up getting another building space that was next door to Tulsa Cares again, and that was on Admiral, just a little bit east of Harvard. Dennis Neill: You were in the same structure? Jeremy Simmons: Right. For many years they had their main building and then there was a small building next door that was separated and we were there. They originally started off the model that they had when at the 42nd and Harvard complex, where they were like we're gonna be a home for a dozen organizations or more, so like the Names Project had like a, or Shanti had like a little teeny, tiny office, baby office there for a little bit. And then who else? There were other groups that had spaces there and we were one of them. We were definitely the second largest because of our staffing size and our funding capacities. RAIN [Regional AIDS 19 �Interfaith Network] was there for a little bit before they had their own thing. So it was supposed to be sort of like a coalition space. But pretty quickly, it became obvious that Tulsa Cares was getting the bulk of the money and that HOPE was getting another big chunk of money and everybody else was like 10% or less of what we were. The staffing and the client needs were overwhelmingly Tulsa Cares and secondarily HOPE. Over time, everything else, a lot of the other smaller organizations kind of merged into Tulsa Cares or finally moved out and got their own spaces. We were there for a while. Dennis Neill: Can you remember the street address? Jeremy Simmons: I think it's 3540 East Admiral Street. It's the Admiral that's north. I can see it always and there's a big church that was on the other side of the street and the building's still there and it looks almost identical to how it looked. I'm not sure if it's even being used right now. Blue and white. Tulsa Cares also started doing group meals at that time. IT started kind of changing what they were a little bit, I think. It was still good for us to have a separate space because people were just so terrified still of getting tested and I think they wanted like the least possible human interaction, the most private parking lot just as possible. We were there for three years to five years. I know that's a very broad term. I don't know exactly how long we were there. Then Tulsa Cares just kept growing and growing and growing and we were slowly growing and we were definitely, so we became the last two. All the other places weren't there anymore. And at a certain point Tulsa Cares was like, hey, we need to have a pantry and we need to expand these food services and we just cannot do this without a lot of extra physical space so you guys are going to need to go. And that was kind of debated and I think my director at the time thought that it wasn't going to happen and it ended up happening though. Christy Fresbee and I were the only two people that were incorporators on both times that we did the name change. We needed space, we had a lot of money for staffing and medical services but we were having a really hard time getting money for a facility and that's just a much, rent or owning is just its own thing. And Community of Hope on 25th and Yale was kind enough to let us stay there for like a year and a half to two years as a temporary transitional space. Then we moved, 3540 might be the 31st Street location. Then we moved to 31st Street which I think was a 3540 location. So that was on 31st a little bit east of Harvard. And we were there for about a decade. That was our longest location. Then we moved to a shopping center for a year and a half around 51st and Harvard and then Hope bought its final location that it owns now that's closer to 51st and Yale. Dennis Neill: When did you decide to leave HOPE and what are you up to now? Jeremy Simmons: I love being at Starlight, I think, but there was a thing going around for volunteer requests from OkEq for Pride and I thought about doing it but I kind of enjoy taking a break from HOPE and being distanced from that and being in some of those same spaces people just walk up and expect me to do HOPE stuff and so I was like I mean I think I just need to be a little further away. 20 �Dennis Neill: I was thinking maybe the late 80s early 90s Starlight was a gay bar but I could be wrong about that. Jeremy Simmons: Forever before it was Starlight it was the Chatterbox which was definitely not a gay bar but yes back in the 80s and 90s remember how we talked earlier about there was this golden time for teenagers where you could be wherever there was an after-hours thing. One of the names was The Factory. It was called many different things and so I went there as a little teenager but you had to wait until 1:45 A.M. or 2:15 or whatever because they made money as a bar and then reopened back up and sold non-alcoholic beverages. So yes, that was definitely... In different incarnations, a more overtly gay space or a kind of gay friendly space. But many of the after-hours places were…It was kind of Wild West compared to what it's like now. There's so many liquor laws now and there's so many ABLE Commission and police…there's just so many guidelines and so many people watching what you do now. Back then it was just like, yeah, someone's coming out of the bathroom with coke on their face, who cares? There's this wild thinking of that. As a teenager, like having access to that world, it felt like when people say it wasn't Studio 54, but when I see stuff like that for Manhattan, I was just like I get that general vibe. I don't know how it happens, but there's like you pay off the cops or you stay off their radar long enough or something , and it's just like people were just like whatever, and so there was more of that at those places. It was more of that live and let live, yeah, kind of a thing. Even the straight people were like, whatever, everybody's doing their own thing Dennis Neill: Switching a little bit to more kind of the broader community you're in, your involvement, advocacy, social activities and particularly your board service with OkEq. Jeremy Simmons: There was a little bit of confusion and hostility when HOPE split away from OkEq. I think it was pretty minimal and it was understandable. It's like okay. There was a little brief period of detente, but I think within several months, definitely within a year, there was conversations about us doing testing on Saturdays at the Equality Center. So we pretty quickly moved past whatever that was, and and started doing regular services here, in part to sort of help- and I've always loved it here- but in part also to sort of seem at that bridge between HOPEand OkEq. I became a board member and I became a committee member. I don't know exactly what they called it, it was something like the rebranding committee, so it was for conversations around the name change and logo, and so I was just… I was on a committee of people, some some board members, but a lot of other just community members, and so I did that and really loved it. It was a lot of fun- and then got on the general board and then the executive committee of the board. Again, I'm terrible with years, but I was on the executive committee as we moved into this building. Dennis Neill: So we moved in 2007. Jeremy Simmons: Okay, I knew it was after the millennia, but I couldn't, but it's just like. That's definitely one of those. I have a hard time anchoring it to another event. 21 �When I was on the committee, we were still in that shopping center on the 41st Street. Dennis Neill: You probably had what- Mark Bonney and Laura BelmonteJeremy Simmons: Yep, yep, I was much more involved with Laura because she was on. …She was very involved. Mark, I believe, was the president, but she was on the committee that brought me in, so I was much more involved with her, and then she became president at a certain point, yeah, and so I always remember being much more involved with her and, while she's on a separate board somewhat, I was more involved with Sue Welch occasionally for other things. I still, even though I'm with on the board, I'm still not a hundred percent sure what the different duties are between the two, like the, the two boards, just to be honest with…the Board of Trustees. I get it in general, but especially as we moved into the building, there was a lot of oh, we want to do this, we want to do that, and there was just like there was….It was very interesting trying to sort of figure all that out still is, because it's like everybody has so many good intentions and so many opinions and so many preferences, right, and so it's hard coordinating that. I- and it's something that I learned a lot from here- and I was like, okay, and I actually heard someone else say this from another LGBT group in another city- and they're like, well, but it's different, not that other marginalized communities or individual communities don't have problems also, but like a lot of immigrant families, a lot of black Americans, a lot of indigenous Americans….A lot of groups are raised within their own communities. So there are, generally speaking, a lot more acceptable norms and like expectations of what is gonna happen, whereas we come from every larger and smaller community. So I think it makes it even harder to get a lot of consensus. We have men and women and transgender people, we have all races, all regions, all socio-economic background, , and so there's all religions. There's not like an overarching norm, aside from maybe being an American, which is a million different things. I think it's just, I think it's common at LGBT centers, to make it harder to get true consensus because there's just so many different drives. Dennis Neill: HOPE in a way, it's certainly been on the forefront of advocacy with its education and outreach, so you've been part of that for decades. Are there other aspects of our community where you felt like you've taken on an advocacy role or in the future, you want to get more involved as you transition and any thoughts about our community at large as its transitioned over the years, the good and the bad. Jeremy Simmons: Oh, that's a really big one. I've worked with several different groups. I worked with the American Red Cross doing HIV education and education around blood-borne pathogens, and it was interesting working within a large bureaucratic, large system and trying to sort of make it be not scared of HIV, to be more open to LGBT. That's not my strength is. I enjoy doing it, but I think I need more immediate results. So I've always dealt with probably smaller groups. I volunteered for a while off and on with the Nightingale Theater and that was fun before the theater was here. There's a lot of small venues here in Tulsa, but before there was a theater here, Nightingale is one of those few spaces where you could do some really sexually 22 �explicit material, thematically or overtly, like, and so they did like a gay spin on the Dukes of Hazzard, stuff like that- that just there wasn't a place for it. Now we have an option here as well, which is great. So that was fun. I was one of the founding board members with the Equality Network, which picked up some steam but then eventually merged with Cimarron Alliance to become Freedom Oklahoma. I think it might have been called something else at first, but now it's Freedom Oklahoma, I believe. I've not kept up with them super well. They invited us to come and I spoke to some state senators about HIV laws and changing them, and that feels good in the moment. It's interesting to do. But also it's like four senators showed up- what I mean, and so- and they were mostly women from progressive women from Oklahoma City who were gonna vote with us anyway. Sometimes at the state level, it even it feels it can feel a little daunting. But because of that, I think that groups like OkEq and Freedom Oklahoma need to continue the pressure because- and sometimes it's just luck, right, sometimes things just line up in ways you can't expect, like we got law enforcement to to get on board with decriminalizing needles to a degree, and that's not the group that I would have thought would have supported us, but they're the groups getting stuck when they do frisking right. Jeremy Simmons: Sometimes something comes from a place , and so it's like, oh, legislators will listen to them, in conjunction with other community groups and public health people, to to maybe decriminalize this. So we understand it's like: no, we need cleaner needles so that everyone, not just the people that are using, but everybodyhas fewer blood-borne pathogens that they have to worry about. So there definitely needs to keep happening. That's harder for me to be engaged with personally. As I've gotten older, as I've lived and been an American, America has gotten overwhelmingly more gay-friendly and Oklahoma has not. There's pockets, in Tulsa and Oklahoma City that are way more gay-friendly. But I just think everybody understands that those are little isolated oases. Dennis Neill: Now that you're kind of free from HOPE, that stability, but also that confinement of being in that one job, do you still feel like you're anchored in Tulsa, or are you anxious to experiment, go other places? Jeremy Simmons: I'm open to see where the future takes me. Some friends of mine moved to Spain recently, and they're making a big pitch for me to come to Spain with them. Which sounds kind of ridiculous, but then also I'm like, there's certain skills like bartending that are kind of universal. It's easier to be a bartender in places like Spain than it is to be a phlebotomist. So, maybe. We'll see. I really like being here, though. I love... when I came here, I just knew almost no one. I had tons of casual acquaintances at first. And building up all these deep friendships and seeing these nonprofits and these cool, unique little businesses thrive here, and being able to even just support them a little bit in some way, has been really lovely. I really love Tulsa. So, I'm very open to anything now. I don't feel... So, forever, I did feel like... And I didn't fully understand this until I left, but I felt like I had to stay. 23 �And I don't really know why, because everybody else left a long time ago from the 90s, but I felt like I had to keep HOPE going. I personally had to make sure that HOPE was going, which is dumb. Everybody eventually ages out. Everybody dies, if nothing else. And then everybody gets tired. Like, when you're helping people... I was a full-time employee for 24 years. And I loved it for a lot of that. And then, towards the end, I didn't love it anymore. I think sometimes when you're helping people, you have to make a choice to go do something else that's more fun or go do something else that makes more money for a while. I'm not sure. I'm sure there are the Mother Teresa types that can do it indefinitely. But I'm like, I need to... so, whatever I'm doing in the future, for the latter part of my life, I need to get paid more per hour than what I was at HOPE, or having more fun than what I was getting at HOPE towards the end. It has to be at least one of those two things. Preferably both. Everybody wants that job, and that's hard to find. But I did feel very anchored to HOPE. I was just like, we are one and the same. To the point that I'm not sure it was super healthy, honestly. Dennis Neill: Well, you provide us with a valuable history about HOPE, AIDS, and your engagement. Are there any final comments you want to make as we bring the interview to conclusion? Jeremy Simmons: While the current federal administration is abysmal, I think this is some dying last gasps of some outmoded thinking. And so while things feel very dark right now, I think things are about to get much better in the next several years. And here, and everywhere else in the United States. And I really appreciate everybody who's been involved with HOPE, and OkEq, and all the other groups. Tulsa Cares, Our House, all the other LGBT groups, all the other HIV and Hep C and harm reduction groups like SHOTS. I just love that I know so many people that are doing so much great work. And it keeps me... While I personally need a break from it, I love getting on social media. I love showing up to the Equality Center. I love going to a gala randomly somewhere and seeing all of the support that Tulsa still has to give. So, I think the future's going to be great. And I appreciate y'all taking some time with me. And I appreciate everybody who's interested enough in this to listen to it. And just keep reminding yourself that even though things look very... feel very heavy right now, this is temporary. It will shift back. Dennis Neill: Jeremy, thank you so much. This is an invaluable interview. And we look forward to your continued advocacy in our community. Thank you very much. Jeremy Simmons: Thank you. 24 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Jeremy Simmons Interview Description An account of the resource Jeremy Simmons shares his journey of self-discovery and advocacy within the LGBTQ+ community. Growing up in a conservative, religious environment, he navigated the complexities of his sexual identity while facing societal expectations and bullying. His experiences shaped his commitment to community engagement and HIV awareness, leading his long-time involvement first as a volunteer and then 30 years as an HIV educator and tester with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights and then HOPE. Jeremy reflects on the challenges of nonprofit management and expresses hope for the future of the LGBTQ+ community, emphasizing the importance of continued advocacy and support. Subject The topic of the resource Jeremy Simmons Oral History Project Interview from January 21, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jeremy Simmons, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 21, 2026 2026 AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV education Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill HIV HIV Education HIV Outreach Education Program HIV Outreach Education Program (HOPE) HIV/AIDs HIV/AIDs outreach HOPE interview Jeremy Simmons OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/6da3185e3c9411346acb45f174dd3c31.jpg 98c26387f8be6f490a4a4fa8804ee6c2 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/98b5266fc83c9948564198c691c566c6.mp4 0c0146cc3f558b39b5d63d4dae7ac832 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/062906c82060eb043f35e0daa45468ba.pdf 569c6056020b1a38f0eec877c89425b5 PDF Text Text Jimmy Flowers Story Subject Jimmy Flowers Description From Julie Tucker - Trainum, August 2019 - Jimmy Flowers was one of the very first members of the AIDS Coalition in Tulsa. he was a young man when he was part of Stonewall and in his interview he talks about Stonewall. jimmy died in the mid 2000s. he was interviewed so we could share his story at the YST support group "Tulsa Youth Discovering Diversity." Creator Julie Tucker-Trainum, Youth Services of Tulsa Date Interview was conducted in 1999 or 2000 Original Format VHS Duration 1 hour 20 minutes [00:00:00] Julie Trainum: And we're here to talk to a fellow by the name of Jimmy Flowers, and Jimmy is 41. He told me his age, so I hope he doesn't mind me telling the tape. And all the things that you're seeing on these tables are things that Jimmy has gathered up over the years, specifically about the gay movement. And all of these things are very, very telling, but probably the best person that can tell is Jimmy himself. And he's been real interested in talking with us and with the young people to let them know what he went through and the things that he saw. [00:00:36] Julie Trainum: So, Jimmy, how are you? [00:00:38] Jimmy Flowers: Well, so far so good. [00:00:40] Julie Trainum: So far so good? [00:00:41] Jimmy Flowers: Yeah. [00:00:41] Julie Trainum: Can you begin a little bit with your history and saying what happened with you when you were a youngster? You can maybe talk specifically about when you first understood that you were gay and what happened with your family. [00:00:59] Jimmy Flowers: Well, number one, I've always known that I was gay. Number two, I was about 11 years old, and what happened was that I was kissing a guy underneath the staircase. He was 14 and I was 11, just kissing. And then my father, of course, he was the supervisor of the building. And I didn't realize he was home, and he caught me underneath the staircase, kissing the guy. He dragged me by the hair and sort of beat me, slapped me around, saying it wasn't natural, it was disgusting, it was a sin, and everything like that. [00:01:45] Jimmy Flowers: And my mother started yelling at me and, you know. Then took me to the school psychiatrist. This is going back to 1966. [00:01:54] Julie Trainum: And you were about 11 at the time? [00:01:56] Jimmy Flowers: I was about 11. I can't remember exactly every date or detail, but I was about 11, 11 and a half maybe. And what happened was that they thought at that time that if you were gay or lesbian, if they catch you at an early age that you would become a heterosexual. And so they put me in a mental institution for almost two and a half, three years. And in that time, they tried to come to us that we were sick, 1 �that it wasn't natural, that we were sinners of God. And they also, some of the things they did was very disgusting. [00:02:40] Jimmy Flowers: They forced us to be in the same room with another lesbian young woman. We were both nude. They thought if we saw each other's body that we would be attracted to each other. But unfortunately it didn't work that way. And then they showed us pictures of videotapes of men and women having sex. [00:03:04] Julie Trainum: And this is still when you were a youngster? [00:03:08] Jimmy Flowers: Oh yes. They thought if we saw the actual lovemaking of heterosexuals making love, intercourse, that it would change us to become heterosexuals. We were constantly pumped in our heads that we were not gay. At that time, we didn't know the word gay. We used the word fancy because it wasn't offensive to us. We didn't like the word homosexual. We didn't like the word homo or faggot or queer or bull dyke or lesbians. So therefore we used the word fancy because it wasn't too offensive. Then, in this time, they showed the male tenants, which was the guard. [00:04:00] Jimmy Flowers: Forgive me if I get a little bit emotional because some of the things that happened in the mental institution, you wouldn't believe unless you saw it yourself. I was given Thorazine and child treatment to become straight. And I kept on saying I was born gay. It's a little bit hard to explain because I like the word gay. I said I was born to be a fancy. And they brought a priest in since they thought I was on the religious side. They brought a priest in. And the priest said to me, and I'll never forget it. [00:04:48] Jimmy Flowers: He said, you are a sinner of God and it's wrong. It's not natural. It's against nature. And I just kept on saying I was born this way. [00:04:57] Jimmy Flowers: And then he slapped me, and I got a little bit angry, and I took Grant's collar from his neck, he was a Roman Catholic priest, and I said how dare you call yourself a man of God, if you are. That's pretty courageous for a youngster. I was about 11, 11 and a half, 12 maybe. And some gays and some young lesbians, they thought they were safe, and they committed suicide because they could not change. [00:05:32] Jimmy Flowers: And they made a stand up while they took a 14 year old lesbian young woman, and laid her down while the male attendants, she wanted to shoot me, while the male attendants forced us to watch while they were having intercourse with her. They thought by us watching, all the gay males we lined up, and the young gay females lined up on each side. They thought that they would make us to be straight, and they were constantly crinkling into our ears that we were sick. [00:06:31] Jimmy Flowers: So there was a lot of reason for young gay and lesbian kids to not come out, and to not say, and not let other people know because of the possibility that this would happen. So anyway, the young lesbian woman, a few months later, I don't want to go into every single detail because it would take hours and hours. The young lesbian woman, she was pregnant, and she committed suicide in her own room, and she hung herself. And I discovered her because we were friends. They had the females on one side, and the males on the other. [00:07:20] Jimmy Flowers: And I was the one that found her, and I will never forget that. Then there was a gay, we started a hunger strike in the mental institution, which was called Primory and King's Park State Hospital. And then there was another one called King's County. And during that time, there was this gay psychiatrist and gay therapist that was helping us getting out of the place. Of course, we had to lie and say we were straight, and that we enjoyed having sex with women, and the women enjoyed having sex with men. [00:08:06] Jimmy Flowers: And I promised myself, once I get out of that place, that I would never lie again. And I haven't lied since then, and I'm not going to now, and I never will until the day I die. Let's go ahead and cut there for a second. After I got out, it was about 1968. Did you go back to your parents? Yes, I went back to my family. And things were still, I had to pretend that I had a girlfriend, and then went to high school. During that time I was put away, I didn't have no school at all. And then I was kicked out of high school for trying to start a gay movement. [00:08:52] Jimmy Flowers: And that was back in 69, but we didn't call it a gay movement, we called it the Pansy Movement. Now I can laugh at it, but then it was serious. Was that in Brooklyn? No, at that time we lived in the Bronx, Bronx, New York. Then my mother and father, they found out I was still gay, they kicked me out 2 �of the house. I was about 14 and a half years old, or 14 or 14 and a half. I roamed the streets, lived from one person to the next. [00:09:25] Jimmy Flowers: And then there was hundreds, literally hundreds of young lesbians and young gay men that was actually kicked out of the streets for being gay. Because their family couldn't deal with it. And, um... [00:09:43] Jimmy Flowers: Then there was Spanish in society, and they wanted us to be good little boys and girls and not to kiss in public or to hold hands in public. They were using the word flaunting our gayness. And then we were all young. There was lesbians, there was gay blacks, there was gay Puerto Ricans, there was gay religious lesbians from all walks of life that was kicked out in the streets because of being gay. [00:10:17] Julie Trainum: It's a real diverse crowd out there. Real diverse. [00:10:21] Jimmy Flowers: Yes. The young gay blacks was considered a disgrace to their race if they were gay. A lesbian woman wasn't a real woman. They used slogans like, oh, what you need is a good man. And they used to use the word revise to the gay men that what you really need was a good woman. And we used to sock it back to them. I said, no. What you need is a good woman, and what we need is a good man. And so one guy, I remember one guy would say, you're not a real man. I said, how do you know? I said, did you have one? Of course, I'm a man's man. [00:11:10] Jimmy Flowers: And so therefore, if you haven't had a man, then you're not a man. And the lesbians used to sock it to them on their level too. Well, you're not a real woman until you have a woman, you know. [00:11:24] Julie Trainum: So a lot of the young people who were kind of on the street had to make up their own philosophy of living. [00:11:31] Jimmy Flowers: Right. [00:11:31] Julie Trainum: And philosophy of being gay and what that felt like. [00:11:34] Jimmy Flowers: Right. I'm not ashamed of it. I had to do some hustling to be able to hustle, and I was a go-go boy at the Stonewall. [00:11:45] Julie Trainum: What does that mean, go-go boy? [00:11:47] Jimmy Flowers: A go-go boy dancer. I should have brought my uniform, but they called me the gay midnight cowboy. That was part of my act. I had a black cowboy hat, purple shirt with white fringes, purple hot pants with silver sequins and cowboy boots. And of course, I was on the platform, and that's how I made to put food in my stomach. And at that time, I had to hustle because who was going to give a 14-and-ahalf-year-old person, young person, a full-time job or housing? And a lot of young lesbians and young gays had to do that. [00:12:26] Jimmy Flowers: But we protected each other, and we stood in a group. And we also protected the old ones that were taking us in, and we were not abused. We were not forced to have sex with them. As a matter of fact, there used to be a joke about me because I felt guilty for taking money for sex. So while they were sleeping, I used to get out and clean their apartments. So there used to be a joke going around saying, take the redhead because you get two for the price of one. Then came the raids of the bars constantly. Now we're getting into 69. [00:13:13] Julie Trainum: And this is in Brooklyn? [00:13:15] Jimmy Flowers: No, Manhattan. Greenwich Village. Then we started arguing with the police. There were entrapments of police undercover. There were police officers undercover taking license plates, numbers of cars that was in the neighborhood because they presumed that everybody in that section of the neighborhood were all gay, all lesbians. They were raiding the lesbian bars constantly, and the gay bars. We wasn't allowed to hold hands in our own bars. We wasn't allowed to sit close together, more than 12 feet. [00:13:56] Jimmy Flowers: And plainclothes cops used to come in and make sure that we did not do these things or slow dance together. There was also the gay rich was being blackmailed by plainclothes cops. 3 �[00:14:12] Julie Trainum: The gay, say that again. [00:14:12] Jimmy Flowers: The gay rich. [00:14:14] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:14:14] Jimmy Flowers: Because they had money. [00:14:16] Julie Trainum: I see. [00:14:16] Jimmy Flowers: And if they were caught in the section and the plainclothes cops caught them in that area, they just assumed that they were automatically gay and they would call up their boss and tell him that they were gay and they wouldn't have a job, they'd be fired. [00:14:29] Julie Trainum: I see. [00:14:29] Jimmy Flowers: And then at that time, there was lesbians that were beaten up, gay men that was found in the Hudson River that was dead. With their thing cut off, found in the Hudson River. And then at that time, we had signs on the bars that said, enter in your own grips, you may be arrested. Some lesbians was raped by male undercover cops. [00:14:58] Jimmy Flowers: Years later, we found out those license plates that they had, which was over 100,000 license plates they had, was going to the FBI. What license plates were those? Lesbians and gays and people that was parked in the Greenwich Village area. [00:15:17] Julie Trainum: Okay, so they would take that information, the cars parked in the village area and send it to the FBI? Right. [00:15:24] Jimmy Flowers: At that time, that's what they did, and they called it a scare tactic. [00:15:30] Julie Trainum: Scare tactic. [00:15:31] Jimmy Flowers: Yes, to keep gays and lesbians away from getting together and uniting. [00:15:39] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:15:39] Jimmy Flowers: At that time, we started having arguments with Mattachine Society. [00:15:46] Julie Trainum: Tell us a little bit about what that organization is. [00:15:49] Jimmy Flowers: Well, Mattachine Society started after World War II, about 1945, and they did a lot of things. They did help out a lot of people through courts, and they helped try to get a gay rights bill passed, a lesbian gay rights bill passed, secretly behind the scenes. [00:16:12] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:16:12] Jimmy Flowers: They believed and dressed in ties and suits, and women, lesbian women, had to wear high heels and dresses and be very conservative. [00:16:24] Julie Trainum: What was their theory behind this dress and doing things behind the scenes? [00:16:28] Jimmy Flowers: Well, their theory figured that not let the public, the religious groups, or the straight community know what was going on in the world. They wanted to try to pass the bill of rights for lesbians and gays secretly behind the scenes, behind the doors. [00:16:49] Julie Trainum: So as to not make waves? [00:16:51] Jimmy Flowers: Right, not to make waves, and Mattachine Society were the older people at that time. Remember, the ones that lived on the streets, the homeless, lesbians and gays, and young gays, we were all young, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 years of age, 19, 20, some was even 13, and the youngest was 12 and a half years old, believe it or not. And then the older ones that was part of Mattachine, they were in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 4 �and 60s, and they used to come out at us for holding hands in public. Don't do that, the cops will get you arrested. [00:17:40] Julie Trainum: Okay, so that was the beginning of some of those arguments you were saying? [00:17:43] Jimmy Flowers: Yes. [00:17:43] Julie Trainum: So they did not like the fact that you were much more out in your appearance? [00:17:49] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:17:49] Jimmy Flowers: They said you ruined everything that we were trying to accomplish, and we turned around and we said, well, this is 1969, and you've had since 1945 to do something, and it's time for a change, and the change is now. Well, the cops came and raided the Stonewall, and 200 of us took to the streets. Yes, there was drag queens there, there was lesbians, there was gay blacks, gay Puerto Ricans, but we were not all drag queens, let me just make that very clear. We were from all walks of life, all colors. [00:18:29] Julie Trainum: Has that been something that they've tried to state over and over, that it was just the drag queens that rioted? [00:18:36] Jimmy Flowers: Yes. [00:18:37] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:18:37] Jimmy Flowers: Even, I got to admit, even the gay press keeps on saying drag queens. It just didn't happen like that. What has happened to be to Stonewall was incidents of the raiding of bars, being put away for being gay, entrapments, license plates being taken, beating up of lesbians and gays, dead bodies of gay males being found in the Hudson River, harassment, blackmail of the gay rich because they paid off the cops because they were afraid to lose their jobs. Lesbians were being raped by plainclothes cops, beaten up, and they were forced to fight back. [00:19:25] Julie Trainum: So people, in a sense, have had their fill of the harassment and the hatred, so that when that particular bar was raided... [00:19:35] Jimmy Flowers: It wasn't just that particular bar. [00:19:37] Julie Trainum: Was it not? [00:19:38] Jimmy Flowers: It started... See, all the bars in that area was being raided like every weekend. [00:19:44] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:19:44] Jimmy Flowers: But, the Stonewall, we're the ones that came out of the Stonewall and we said, enough is enough, we're going to take the streets now. [00:19:57] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:19:58] Jimmy Flowers: And that was the word gay. And we started using the word gay. A lot of people, even some of the gay people themselves, don't like to use the word gay. They don't use the word homosexual. Well, we name ourselves gay. [00:20:13] Jimmy Flowers: Homosexuality, faggot, queer, fruit, homo, pansy, bull dyke, lesbian, all those names were labeled on us by society. The word gay, we took as being proud. And the word lesbian, as proud as being a lesbian woman. So then, then we start taking into the streets. And we started turning over police cars and we started dancing in the streets and we started yelling out gay rights now. And I remember this big black guy, about six foot four, something like that, kicked up a paddy wagon and turned it over. [00:20:59] Jimmy Flowers: And three lesbians pulled over the paddy wagons and the best fighters, I gotta admit, was the drag queens and the lesbians. And, but people like me too was there too. We were, I was the one that was underneath the paddy wagon as they were pulling the gays and lesbians into the paddy wagon, I was underneath the paddy wagon punching the cops between the legs. And then as they were going out, the lesbians, 5 �gays were running out of the paddy wagons. Jim, you were back there when I was a little girl. Well, you know, at that time, you did what you had to do. [00:21:41] Jimmy Flowers: And about how old were you at the time then? I was about 14 and a half years old, 15 years old. And there were some other gay youth there as well? And that's that one thing we all had in common. We were all young and we were all gay and lesbians. Let's stop there for just a second, okay? Yeah, all right. [00:22:03] Jimmy Flowers: As I was saying before, when they were dragging in the lesbians and gays, I was underneath the paddy wagon punching below the belt of the police officers and the lesbians and gays would run out of the paddy wagon while the cops were going out, you know? Okay, great. And then we started marching in the streets, yelling out gay rights now and this and that. And they would throw gas bombs at us and we had handkerchiefs we wrapped around our faces and we threw it back at the cops. And we was turning over the paddy wagon to the police cars. [00:22:44] Jimmy Flowers: We marched to the 10th precinct, which was the Greenwich Village Police Station. And we marched around there, started singing We Shall Overcome. And then we started marching towards out of the gay ghetto. And that's when everything started beginning. We started marching up 6th Avenue. They knew that we was gonna be on 5th Avenue to St. Patrick's because see, on 5th Avenue was St. Patrick's Cathedral and sinners of God wasn't allowed to be on 5th Avenue. [00:23:16] Julie Trainum: Bless you. [00:23:18] Jimmy Flowers: And so anyway, we started marching on 6th Avenue but we had a plan. And we all ran arm to arm, black, white, young and old. Some of us, most of us was young. And we started doing the can-can. And as we started kicking the lesbians and gays, drag queens, blacks and whites, and yes, even some atheists and Christians, we started doing the can-can and started saying gay rights now, lesbian power now. And as we kicked, the police officers backed away. They took one step back and then we started taking advantage of it. Each night, the crowd grew larger. [00:24:08] Jimmy Flowers: And as we was doing the can-can down the street of 6th Avenue, the cops, they have never faced this situation before. They were scared to death of us. That night, the crowds grew to about 1,000. And we started rowing. And then when we got to 45th Street, cut off on to 5th Avenue, the cops had the barricade of police cars and the lesbians and the gay men and the drag queens and the transvestites. And we just pushed the cars off the streets and just pushed them onto the sidewalks. And then we went right on to 5th Avenue and we started marching up. [00:25:00] Jimmy Flowers: Then they had another barricade. And then we started marching towards St. Patrick's. And as we was doing the kicking in the air and singing all sorts of things, and unite, we stand, fight back now, the cops were backing up and backing up and the crowd just grew larger and larger. [00:25:24] Jimmy Flowers: That night was 1,000 and we started holding hands and marching around St. Patrick's Day, and we started singing We Shall Overcome, and we did it all night long. And then people started saying that homosexuals is taking over the country. There was headlines in the newspapers and everything, it was on the news, and then we started protesting at City Hall. The first protest at City Hall was 1970 for the gay rights. Only 40 people showed up at that time. As the year went by, the crowd at City Hall grew larger and larger and larger. [00:26:17] Jimmy Flowers: The gay and lesbian community started uniting. At one point around 1973, the politicians and the religious groups, the Orthodox Jewish community and the Catholics saying, well there's really nothing about lesbians in the Bible, it's okay to be a lesbian. And what they were trying to do is split us apart and to make us weak, because unity there is strength. So I say to the young ones today, don't let politicians or anybody split y'all up because of politics, because we are in it together and there must be unity. [00:27:06] Jimmy Flowers: Then we started marching towards politicians and we started having sit-ins and we started having sit-ins to go into the City Hall chambers and about 100 of us or 200 of us, and we started singing We Shall Overcome each and every time there was a lesbian gay rights hearing. And then we started having the Lesbian Gay Parade, which was 1970. The very first one was 1970, and we marched from Greenwich Village to Central Park, which by the way was only 9,000 people. Excellent about that. [00:27:48] Julie Trainum: Has there been one every year then? 6 �[00:27:50] Jimmy Flowers: Yes, every one, and last year, the 25th anniversary, lesbians gays from all over the world came. There was people from Switzerland, lesbians and gays from Russia, there was lesbians and gays from Puerto Rico, from Cuba, there was lesbians and gays from Texas and Oklahoma, there was lesbians and gays from Kansas City, Philadelphia, you name it, they were all there. Gays and lesbians from Alaska. [00:28:28] Julie Trainum: How many do you think, in your opinion, were actually in attendance? [00:28:32] Jimmy Flowers: Well, later on when you see the pictures up close. The newspaper says 100,000, but the newspapers always lie when it comes to lesbians and gays marching in the streets. I estimate there was close to one million lesbians and gays, and parents of gays, and friends of gays, and lesbians and gays themselves from all walks of life, from all over the world, was marching because we had three avenues. [00:29:02] Jimmy Flowers: Excuse me, I think it's important at this point to recognize that Jimmy was honored as one of the 15 only survivors from the original Stonewall Uprising, and he was honored this past year during the 20th anniversary as one of those 15,... Oklahoma in that. [00:29:25] Julie Trainum: How many Oklahomans were also in that group? Were you the only one? [00:29:31] Jimmy Flowers: I was the only one. [00:29:33] Julie Trainum: Well, we're proud of you. Let's go ahead at this point and... [00:29:36] Jimmy Flowers: But I wasn't born in Oklahoma. [00:29:38] Julie Trainum: I understand, but we have you now. We'll go ahead and stop the film for a second so that we can get up and take a look. And what we're going to do right now is take a look at some of the mementos that Jimmy has brought. We have an array of t-shirts here, and we're going to listen a little bit about what each one... [00:29:56] Julie Trainum: Where each one came from and so on and anything else that Jimmy can tell us about it. So you want to start over there with the Lambda? [00:30:04] Jimmy Flowers: Okay. The Lambda was the first gay t-shirt that lesbians and gays wore as a symbol of lesbian gay power. There was a little bit of confusion about the Lambda bit because it stood for gay males, but there was a little confusion about that too as well. [00:30:23] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:30:24] Jimmy Flowers: So this was the first lesbian gay t-shirt even though there was some confusion. This one here was about Reagan's time where two guys and we took his slogan and we said breathe my lips and there's two guys kissing. Also we started using slogans like cruise men not missiles. Then there was the gay independent democrats. We started registering people to vote and I have myself registered in New York City over 10,000 lesbians and gay voters, all democrats. [00:31:03] Julie Trainum: So you helped to get people signed up to register to vote? [00:31:05] Jimmy Flowers: Oh yes I did. [00:31:06] Julie Trainum: Excellent. [00:31:07] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:31:08] Jimmy Flowers: This is the t-shirt of the coalition. This was the original lesbian gay flag which I designed it and a lesbian woman made the flag. [00:31:20] Julie Trainum: Cool. [00:31:21] Jimmy Flowers: It was June 1st, 1976. That was the symbol, the first original lesbian gay flag. It stands for unity. This here was the first march on Washington D.C. national wise. There was other marches besides that. There was Madison Society had a group in 1966 marching in front of the White House, but this 7 �was the first national march on Washington with Harvey Milk's name. Then later on, this picture here of me, 1976, I had a t-shirt that said I'm a gay American. And that there came out in one of the gay newspapers. [00:32:10] Julie Trainum: Great. [00:32:11] Jimmy Flowers: This here, later on, there was words mixed up so we started using, we realized that some lesbians wanted to be called lesbians and some wanted to be called gay. So to make everybody happy, we decided to use the word gay and lesbian independent democrats. [00:32:31] Julie Trainum: Great. [00:32:33] Jimmy Flowers: And then here was the first picture of the first protest march at City Hall in 1970. Then comes the American Cypriot Union book around 1975. Then I got a letter from the White House, from Jimmy Carter, from the assistants. And then around 1980, I had a discrimination case against Victor Gonthown, DC-37 in New York, which sexual orientation was passed on AFCIO Union, which they took my case on, which I'm very proud of that. [00:33:18] Julie Trainum: Okay, let me just get kind of a pan shot of some of these things and a view of all the goodies that we have. [00:33:24] Jimmy Flowers: Well, this one, this one here was taken in 1976, I'm a gay American. This one here with the lesbian gay flag, the original one, in front of St. Patrick's Day, saying that we are children of God too. This one here was the first print of the original lesbian gay flag which stands for unity. [00:33:53] Julie Trainum: I like that theme a lot. I like that theme. [00:33:57] Jimmy Flowers: Then here's a pamphlet that we tried to pass in New York City. I was kicked out of a restaurant for wearing a gay t-shirt and they took my case to the human rights, which I won the first gay case in human rights back in 1978. And finally won on paper. [00:34:26] Julie Trainum: Can you tell us a little bit about the Stonewall sash that you're wearing? [00:34:31] Jimmy Flowers: Well, around 1979, Ed Murphy, one of the people in Stonewall, he was a door bouncer at the Stonewall, gave all of these banners to all the Stonewall people that was there. And I've had it since 19... [00:34:49] Jimmy Flowers: 78 something. It was purple and gold, but now it's turning into pink and gold. [00:35:04] Julie Trainum: Tell us a little about your hat. [00:35:05] Jimmy Flowers: Well, my hat has got all the buttons on it about AIDS, be safe, about lesbian and gay rights, civil rights. I'll have a talk and take it off and show you. Boycott homophobia, remember the quilt, silent equals death, stop AIDS, fight back, act up. This is the newest one, Stonewall 25, keep on marching. This symbol of AIDS awareness and over here it says gay rights are civil rights. [00:35:50] Julie Trainum: I love that one. Okay, we need to go ahead and end up this portion. [00:35:55] Jimmy Flowers: Okay. [00:35:56] Julie Trainum: And so what I will do real quick is to, these are pictures of the 25th anniversary of Stonewall. [00:36:03] Jimmy Flowers: Right here. [00:36:04] Julie Trainum: That we're taking in June of this year and some fabulous buttons. [00:36:07] Jimmy Flowers: This one here is I Am All of Us, Harvey Milk. That was printed in 1979. This one here was the first gay button and this was the second one, 1970 and 1970. And then all the other buttons came afterwards. And then we even had a button, boyfriend wanted no experience necessary. Homophobia is a social disease. Then we had this Harvey Milk riot which I will explain later what really happened on that day. 8 �And then we had the pink triangle which gays and lesbians were forced to wear during World War II as in the prisons. [00:36:58] Jimmy Flowers: The gay Jewish, I don't have here a button, but if you was gay and Jewish you wore a yellow and pink star. This one here to sign to the born again Christians. [00:37:10] Julie Trainum: Born again gay. [00:37:11] Jimmy Flowers: Born again gay. [00:37:12] Julie Trainum: Very nice. [00:37:12] Jimmy Flowers: And then there's the teddy bear here with the symbol of the male symbol of gay men. And then we have here of a cat with the lesbian symbol here on the cat. And then we had over here the pink triangle, fight for lesbian gay liberation. And then there was Gay Teachers Unite which came out about 1972. [00:37:38] Julie Trainum: Wow, that's great. We're going to go ahead and end up today's segment. And in a few days we'll get back together and take another look at the remaining memorabilia and finish up Jimmy's story. Hi Jimmy, this is December the 19th and we're back to complete hopefully our session on some of the gay history that you're very familiar with. I think we left off beginning to talk about Stonewall 25 that happened here just last June of 1994. Go ahead if you would and give us your view of what happened last June and what you saw and just go from there. [00:38:19] Jimmy Flowers: Well, number one, it was really beautiful. I found the George Segal statue was put up in the park which was two women and two men holding an armed arm in the park. [00:38:33] Julie Trainum: Was he the sculptor? [00:38:34] Jimmy Flowers: He was George Segal, yeah. It went through the United States and then ended up at Sheridan Square which is in Greenwich Village. And I was part of that. A lot of people was at that time in 1977 when they built the statues of two men and two women holding hands in the park. The Italians got upset and the religious right got upset. Left? [00:39:07] Julie Trainum: Right. [00:39:07] Jimmy Flowers: Right. And they got upset all about the statues. But all there is is that two women is holding arm to arm sitting on the park bench and two guys standing up holding each other with love. Well, I was glad to see that because I collected over 15,000 signatures for those statues. Wow. But I wasn't the only one. Let me put that very clear. I wasn't the only person that was doing it. [00:39:40] Julie Trainum: When did you do this project? [00:39:42] Jimmy Flowers: This was 1977-78. [00:39:44] Julie Trainum: And so you now saw them in the... [00:39:47] Jimmy Flowers: I saw them in the park at Sheridan Square which I was very proud of. [00:39:51] Jimmy Flowers: Finally they got it there. [00:39:54] Jimmy Flowers: Through court battles. They called it freedom of speech. When you show affection towards the same sex. So we used the expression freedom of speech. [00:40:06] Jimmy Flowers: Also, on the day of the parade, which was beautiful, they took up 5th Avenue, 6th Avenue, and also 1st Avenue from the United Nations building. From the United Nations building, there was lesbians and gays from all over the world. From Japan, from China, from Russia, from Italy, from Oklahoma, Texas, Ohio, Philadelphia, California, Boston, Connecticut, Africa. There was lesbians and gays from Switzerland, Italy, you name it, they were there. [00:40:51] Julie Trainum: Sounds like that was the place to get a pen pal. 9 �[00:40:53] Jimmy Flowers: It was beautiful. And the Stonewall led the whole parade, all 18 of us, that was led from the original Stonewall veterans, they called us. I didn't know I was a veteran until the 25th. But, also, from all over the world, over 25,000 ACT UP members marched up 5th Avenue, in front of St. Patrick's Metro, and passed there. And they assembled there, and they started singing, We Shall Overcome. And, of course, then they started marching again. [00:41:31] Jimmy Flowers: On 6th Avenue, over 66,000 lesbians from all over the country, in the United States, and parts of the other world, marched up 6th Avenue to Central Park. We arrived at the park about approximately 11.30am. At 6.30pm, they were still coming into the park, and the parade has not ended. The parade ended coming into the park around 9pm. So, the newspapers always lie about how many numbers there is, especially when it comes to lesbians and gays marching. The newspaper says 100,000, but that's in the pig's eye. It's a lie. [00:42:24] Jimmy Flowers: So, anyway, I, X-Men, and so did a lot of lesbians and gays that was there. XMen, there was 1 million lesbians and gays. We also had straights and gays, women for gay rights, we had parents for gay rights, we had grandmothers marching for gay rights. We had a few members from Mattachine Society that was in it for 36 years, marched too as well. There was about 5 people, I remember, from Mattachine, and they were carrying a sign, 36 years, of 2 women and 1 gay man. That was, as I can remember, from Mattachine Society that was marching. [00:43:16] Julie Trainum: So, that's 36 years of trying to fight for gay rights? [00:43:19] Jimmy Flowers: Oh, that's for gay rights. Okay. From up to last year. Okay. But, there was other gay movements before then. In 1920, Oscar Wilde in England, the case of Oscar Wilde, which by the way, the gay rights bill over there was passed about 45, 40 years ago. And, of course, I can turn around to the religious groups and tell them that see, England did not fall apart. And, the reason, one of the reasons why Queen Elizabeth I, there was no law against lesbianism, but there was laws against gay men. [00:44:06] Jimmy Flowers: Because Queen Elizabeth I believed that women don't do such things. So, therefore, there was no law against being a lesbian, only against being a gay male. Because men do do those types of things. Right. Okay. That's what they said. And, we all know that's a lie. Also, going back, now we're going to go back to 1970, 73. [00:44:37] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:44:37] Jimmy Flowers: 1970 was the Gay Activist Alliance. After we did the Stonewall, we started realizing we must stop fighting in the streets. And, start protesting peacefully and ordinarily matter. [00:44:48] Jimmy Flowers: We did, sometimes we had kiss-ins, holding hands, walking the streets, but by groups. Sometimes two or three hundred would have a kiss-in on the steps of St. Patrick's or on the steps of City Hall to show the public that here we are, we're not going to hide our affection, our love, and our tenderness to be towards each other. Because, see, gay is not just sex, as most people think that it is. Being a lesbian or being gay is not sex, it's the way of life, it's the way of love, it's the way you were born, it's the way you are. [00:45:31] Jimmy Flowers: And we are human beings and children of God just as well as anybody else. There's been Michelangelo that was gay, Jonathan and David, Einstein, and I can go down the list, which will take hours. [00:45:44] Julie Trainum: One of my favorite posters, have you seen it, is depicting all of the people, so many of the people, down through history. And it's just crowded with faces, it's really nice to see. [00:45:59] Jimmy Flowers: I love that poster. [00:45:59] Julie Trainum: Creative, talented. Very much so. [00:46:02] Jimmy Flowers: And also there was Jim Levin, Jim Levin was the gay lawyer who went around mostly towards me because I always seemed to get into trouble. Mostly because of the mouth. Not that I just stood up for what I believed in, but I got my first job in 1971 as a construction worker working on highways cleaning. And the other guys, they had black power on their helmet, kiss me I'm Italian, kiss me I'm Italian. So what I did on my hard hat, helmet, is put gay power on my helmet. 10 �[00:46:43] Jimmy Flowers: But that was totally a different story when it came to the union, D.C. 37, Victor Garfield. And then they tried to make separate bathrooms. A gay men's bathroom and a gay straight men's bathroom. And I fought that because to me that's discrimination, that's like a war fountain for whites and a war fountain for blacks. And to me that is discrimination. So anyway, also in their locker rooms, in their lockers, they had pictures of nude women. So what I did, to be myself, I put up a picture of a nude man on my locker inside my locker. [00:47:28] Jimmy Flowers: And of course that was totally a different story. At that time I had a boyfriend I was going to study with for two years. And their wives and their girlfriends came and picked up the guys from work and they hugged and kissed. You know, hello. So my boyfriend came up and we hugged and he kissed me. And brother, let me tell you, hell just broke loose. So they tried to fire me. And I went to the human rights, filed a complaint, went to D.C. 37 and filed a complaint with Victor Garfield to hit the union. The big cheese there. [00:48:13] Jimmy Flowers: And he says, we're going too far for lesbian gay rights. I said, what do you mean too far? We just want equal rights just like anybody else. And he says, well you're just going too far. And I said, no we're not. So Jim Levin was my lawyer again after a couple of cases I had. Because every time I hear or see something wrong I speak up. Then came the gay rights bill. Mostly that got me into a lot of trouble. Because I always speak up when I see or hear something wrong. Then came 1973, I believe. [00:48:55] Jimmy Flowers: The mental psychiatrists and therapists from all over the country came to New York and they were having a conference. And their discussion was, what are we going to do about these homosexuals in America? And at that time, the gay movement was just beginning to get on its high pit. [00:49:18] Julie Trainum: So it wasn't what can we do for the gay community, it was what are we going to do about? [00:49:22] Jimmy Flowers: About. About, alright. About the homosexuals in America. Mostly, they were concerned mostly of gay males. Don't ask me why, that's the way they did it. So we had a plan to have lesbians and gays to march together outside of the conference building. Which was held on 34th Street, Madison Square Garden. [00:49:49] Jimmy Flowers: And we, as we were protesting outside, about five to six hundred lesbians and gay therapists and psychiatrists came out of the closet at that time, at the conference, and the rest of the people that were inside, the so-called straight people, the heads that were saying what we were going to do about these homosexuals in America, that they're going too far, and that there decided, when they came out, psychiatrists and therapists came out, which shocked the living heck out of them, they decided then and there that it was not an illness, it was not a sickness. [00:50:38] Jimmy Flowers: This, I believe, was back in 1973. I'm not exactly sure on the exact date, but it's about there. So mental illness is not social disease or mental disease or mental order or anything like that, what they thought in the old days. And we're surely not sinners of God, we're children of God as well as anybody else. And also, and then we started protesting the city council people. The first one was 1970, with 30 people. Each year, the crowd grew bigger and bigger. [00:51:21] Julie Trainum: What types of issues did you bring before the council? [00:51:23] Jimmy Flowers: Equal rights in housing, jobs, unemployment, public accommodations, and we tried to put in marriages, lesbian and gay marriages, but that didn't go through. But we got jobs, housing, public accommodations in those orders. [00:51:44] Julie Trainum: How long did that take? That took from 1970 to 1986. [00:51:46] Jimmy Flowers: And that's in New York City? [00:51:53] Julie Trainum: That's in New York City. [00:51:55] Jimmy Flowers: And each year, the protests marched because we kept on insisting. So every six months, we were at City Hall protesting, and each time, the crowd grew larger and larger and larger. In 1986, we started registering, around 1980, we started registering lesbians and gays. We went to the bars, we went to the bathhouses, we went to the backroom bars, we went to the piers, we went wherever lesbians and gays went, we went there. 11 �[00:52:27] Julie Trainum: Registering at the bar? [00:52:29] Jimmy Flowers: Yes. And I, myself, registered over 10,000 lesbians and gays through the bars, through the backrooms, through the lesbian bars. And by the way, I was the first gay male to enter a lesbian and gay bar. Because at that time, lesbians wanted to keep to themselves because a lot of straight guys used to come in and harass them all the time, and it was a lot of trouble. [00:52:57] Jimmy Flowers: So Betty Santora, Eleanor Cooper, they were part of the group, and they said, Look, he's here trying to get signatures and register people to vote, and he's here for your cause as well as for ours. We're supposed to be together and be united. So I was the first male that ever went to a lesbian bar. [00:53:18] Julie Trainum: How'd that feel? [00:53:19] Jimmy Flowers: I felt terrific. You know, most likely, I got along with lesbians better than I did with gay males. I don't know why, but it just happens. There was a joke going around about me, that I was a lesbian trapped in a gay man's body. [00:53:37] Julie Trainum: Did you find that a compliment or not a compliment? [00:53:42] Jimmy Flowers: Well, at the time, I felt both. It was a compliment and it was an insult. But now I think it's a compliment. Then around 19, we started protesting the White House. 1971, we started putting paths. About 100 of us started marching to Washington on foot. [00:54:13] Julie Trainum: You thought you would tell Mr. Nixon a thing or two? [00:54:15] Jimmy Flowers: We thought we would, yeah. [00:54:16] Julie Trainum: How'd that go? [00:54:18] Jimmy Flowers: Well, as we passed each state, the crowd grew larger and larger. When we got to Washington, D.C., finally, it took about almost a week or so. We had rain and everything, and through the sun and everything. And people, as we were walking, with signs and paths on them, the crowd grew to 1,000. [00:54:43] Jimmy Flowers: from 100 from New York and then as we went to Washington they grew to 1,000. But I also got to say, too, there was other protest march back in 1966 by a group of about 25 to 30 lesbians and gay males from Mattachine Society. It wasn't the first march, but it wasn't a national march. The first national march on Washington from the country, the United States, was 1979, then again 1987, and then 1990, a few years later. [00:55:29] Julie Trainum: Early 90s. [00:55:30] Jimmy Flowers: Early 90s. [00:55:31] Julie Trainum: Sure. [00:55:33] Jimmy Flowers: The first one was sensational. We had the first march on Washington was over 500,000 lesbians and gays. The second one was over 50,000 lesbians and gays. Then they estimate the last one that we had was close to over a million lesbians and gays in Washington, even though the newspaper says 50,000 marched. Some said 40,000. Some of the media said 30,000, but if you saw the march yourself and you saw the crowd, you would know that there was five times more than that. [00:56:17] Julie Trainum: I was there. There was a million, believe me. [00:56:19] Julie Trainum: Have you been seeing more gay young people in the marches and parades? Jimmy, did you want to go ahead and continue with what was happening there in the late 70s and 80s? [00:56:31] Jimmy Flowers: Well, around 1976, Anita Bryant started a campaign against lesbians and gay rights, not only in one state in Florida, which passed an anti-gay lesbian rights bill, but then she started campaigning throughout the country. A lot of lesbians and gays, even movie stars and actors, got upset with her because most of her people that was working with her were gay people. That's number one. Number two, she 12 �was actually slapping people in the face that we wasn't human, we wasn't children of God, and we wasn't Americans and everything like that. [00:57:14] Jimmy Flowers: She was trying to get the religious groups to come out and say we are not. But I must say, and I also was one of the people that threw a fruit pie in her face. I was upset, I was angry, and I am American, a gay one, I'm proud of it. The Constitution of the United States says we the people, not we the blacks, not we the straights, not we the women, not we the lesbians and gays, but we the people. And even politicians forget what the Constitution says. And we have to remember that, that we are the people as well. [00:58:00] Jimmy Flowers: And we are just as human beings as anybody else. Because if you cut my wrist, I will bleed red blood just like anyone else. And I also believe that I was born gay, not made. Also, I would like to say that to black youth of America, that be proud of being gay. Don't be ashamed. Because in the 70s, if you was gay and black, their own race said that they were a disgrace to their race because they were black. But that's not true. Be proud to be gay, be proud to be black, and be proud to be Christian and gay or lesbians. [00:58:45] Jimmy Flowers: We must stand in unity and don't let politicians or religion try to split us up. Like, for instance, at City Hall, and I also heard it here at City Hall in Oklahoma, that, oh well, there's nothing against lesbians in the Bible. But they also forget Joan of Arc was burned to the stake because she was a lesbian. And they also forget about that, that's the Roman Catholics. There's a lot of things that in the Bible you can also prove. [00:59:19] Jimmy Flowers: If you put 20 people in the room, and each one of them read the Bible, you will find you get 20 different opinions of what the Bible says. So therefore, should we put a woman down because she's wearing a red dress? That's in the Bible. You know, they said, thy shall not kill. But yet, the Orthodox Jewish people, back in 1986, asked for the death penalty for being gay. Even the gay community, the Jewish gay community, got upset. And all, at the same time, in City Hall, we all stood up. [01:00:01] Jimmy Flowers: Black gays, Jewish gays, Christian gays, gay atheists, we all stood up and we yelled out, Hai Hitler to them. [01:00:10] Jimmy Flowers: That was the most insulting thing to them. They all got up, all the Orthodox Jewish community walked up and out of City Hall. And we applauded and we yelled out hallelujah, you know. [01:00:25] Julie Trainum: What are some of the things that you see that divide the gay community? [01:00:30] Jimmy Flowers: Well, number one, the money bed should not divide the community. The poor, middle class, and the rich. We must work together. Young, old, woman, man, black, and white. There must be unity. Because in numbers there is strength. Martin Luther King said one thing, In unity we have strength, divided we will fall. That's what Martin Luther King said. And we have to remember those words. Because so far what I have seen, we are divided now. But we have to start getting together. [01:01:12] Jimmy Flowers: Because sometimes I feel like I'm reliving the 70s and the 80s all over again right here in Oklahoma. I say to the youth of America, stand up, be proud, and don't let people push you down because you're simply a lesbian or gay or bisexual. Be proud of what you are. Because it's not just sex, it's a wave of life, and it's a wave of human sexuality. I believe that if human sexuality is taught at an early age, you will not have all this hang up about sex, about divorce, about women and men, about gay and lesbians and bisexuality. [01:02:00] Jimmy Flowers: I don't feel that there will be so much uptightness if people and children are taught at an early age about human sexuality and let them be themselves as they grow up. But be taught the right way. Some of us, we learned the hard way. And I must say, we may have all different ways of doing things, we may have all different ideas, we may have all different faiths. But when we step outside and protest peacefully, hand in hand, number one, we must be in unity and we must be in numbers. That's 65 people marching. [01:02:50] Jimmy Flowers: Because politicians, when they look out that window, they say, oh it's only 65, because they're thinking of voters. But if they see 200, 300, 5,000, or 10,000, or even 1 million people out there, they're going to wake up and they say, oh, voters, we better shape up or we're going to get shipped out. So therefore, I say, register the vote when you're 18. Put your money where your mouth is and tell it like it is. Go out there and be peaceful. March peaceful. Have kiss-ins, because there's no law against kissing of the same sex. 13 �[01:03:34] Jimmy Flowers: There is no law against people of two women holding hands, or two men holding hands. So we can easily have kiss-ins, walk hand in hand, surrounding city hall, singing We Shall Overcome. That would get them more anything. They would wake up. That's what we should be doing. And also to educate society that we're here to stay and we're not going away. Lesbians and gays have been here for the longest time. And since the time began, we're going to be here now, until the end of time. [01:04:13] Julie Trainum: Because gay young people, and actually any young person, has a whole lot more to face these days than we did 20 years ago or so, what types of messages would you give kids today when they look at their health and safety? [01:04:29] Jimmy Flowers: Well, number one, be safe. Use condoms. There's different ways of making love without sexual intercourse. That goes for male or female. There's touching, there's feeling, there's holding, there's caressing. There's more ways of making love without intercourse. And if you do have it, get a checkup. Play safe. Use condoms. Or don't use condoms, but be safe with sass. And have checkups. That's what I would say to the youth of America. [01:05:07] Jimmy Flowers: to play safe and also tell the government there must be a cure of AIDS now. Not tomorrow, not ten years from now, but now. Over 40 or 50 million people throughout the world have AIDS. And every day the numbers are growing and growing. And mostly now the young heterosexual community are getting them. And we have to reach out towards them. But just because you're HIV does not make you less of a woman, just because you're HIV does not make you less of a man, or gay, or straight, or black, or white. Be proud of those issues. Be proud of being black. [01:05:59] Jimmy Flowers: Don't let no one say, well, you're HIV now. Now keep silence, because silence to me equals death. It's time to act up peacefully and out there to march and let the politicians know that we are here and we're not going to take it no more. Did you participate in the AIDS walk this past year? Yes, I did. Can you tell us about that? Well, I carried the sign. I got to admit, the crowd was much bigger in Oklahoma than last year. Last year there was only 65 and I was sort of a little bit upset about it. [01:06:37] Jimmy Flowers: And I got a little emotional and a little angry and I went back to those groups and I told them, shame, shame on you for not being at the walk. This year we had close to 150 or 200 people. What I hear in Oklahoma, that was great. But I like to see next year 1,000 people out there marching. Lesbians and gays. Straight people. Parents of gays. [01:07:05] Jimmy Flowers: And even Christians can get AIDS. Yeah, I just wanted to mention that because sometimes they say they're Christian and there was one guy, I won't mention no names, he was going with a woman every day and then all of a sudden with another woman and I told him, I tried to get him condoms and I gave him brochures and he said, well his minister told him it was a gay disease. And I said, no it is not a gay disease. It's a human disease. And which our own government has lied about it. The blood banks have lied about it. [01:07:45] Jimmy Flowers: The Christians tried to put the blame on the gay, that it was God's punishment to gay people. AIDS is man-made. Two scientists already came out and made a statement that in 1969 they developed AIDS as German warfare. Now this was on television because I watch a lot of talk shows. There's also, they were experiment on green monkeys. And in Africa, their food supplies is green monkeys that they eat because of lack of food. Throughout the country, in Africa alone, 10 million plus has AIDS. Mostly heterosexuals. In this country it hit the gay population. [01:08:37] Jimmy Flowers: Yes, that's true at first. But in other parts of the world, Russia, Japan, China, Switzerland, Germany, East Germany, West Germany, also Africa, all the other countries it hit the heterosexuals. But somehow the gays get the blame for it. Don't ask me why, I don't know why. But it's time now to come out and not to do it violently, but peacefully protest by numbers. I've been asked that question quite a lot. And my answer is, no, I will not do anything differently. [01:09:30] Jimmy Flowers: Because I believe very strongly that I was born gay, not made, and I also believe in God, and I also believe in Jesus. And I believe in a God of love, not a God of hate. I also believe that Jesus preached love in the Ten Commandments, if you looked at it. It does not say, thy shall not be a homosexual. Which in 1976, some of the religious groups wanted to bring Eleventh Commandment on the Ten Commandments. And I was doing the Neal O'Brien situation. Which, by the way, I was one of the people that threw a fruit pie at the Neal O'Brien's face. 14 �[01:10:22] Jimmy Flowers: And she forgave me. [01:10:25] Julie Trainum: How do you know she forgave you? [01:10:27] Jimmy Flowers: Because she said it on television that she forgives me. [01:10:30] Julie Trainum: I'm glad you brought that up again because a lot of the younger people may not remember who Anita O'Brien is. [01:10:35] Jimmy Flowers: Well, Anita O'Brien was the one that was doing the commercials, and she was a singer, and a blogger. [01:10:43] Julie Trainum: But before that, wasn't she like a Miss America or some type like that? [01:10:47] Jimmy Flowers: She came in second place. [01:10:49] Julie Trainum: Okay, well it makes her like this all-American type, and people are going to maybe listen to her. And so then she went into entertainment. [01:10:56] Jimmy Flowers: Well, I can say this. We're all Americans here. No matter what color, what background, if you're a woman, if you're a man, young, old, black and white, of race. We're all Americans here. But if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty, the only Americans here that's true Americans is the American Indians. I mean, let's face it. You know, white men brought the diseases over from Europe. [01:11:26] Jimmy Flowers: If these diseases, if they would think, if you think about this, number one, if the government could spend $2.3 billion on one bomb that would destroy countries and life, human life, from all walks of life. Why can't they spend, and we've got enough weapons and bombs and airplanes to destroy this world 20 times over, if not more. It is now time to put an end to all diseases and put the money together and have all the scientists throughout the world in this country. And I'm not just talking about AIDS. I'm talking about diabetes. [01:12:11] Jimmy Flowers: I'm talking about heart trouble or cancer and liver problems. If they will find and put their money to save human life instead of destroying human life, I'll bet you, ten to one, we will be much happier. Because in the Constitution of the United States too, it says, life, liberty, and presumed happiness. And so far, I really haven't seen much of that. And I'm sure a lot of others haven't either. [01:12:43] Julie Trainum: But... [01:12:43] Julie Trainum: Okay, let me stop there for a second. [01:12:45] Julie Trainum: Stand by, stand by. We're looking at some of the things that Jimmy brought with him. Just kind of show real quick a few of these items. And let's go back over here to the purple outfit. Tell us what this is and when you wore it. [01:13:04] Jimmy Flowers: Okay. This was part of my go-go outfit. I was a go-go boy. [01:13:09] Julie Trainum: What is that again? You're a dancer. [01:13:09] Julie Trainum: And I also was a go-go boy at [01:13:11] Jimmy Flowers: the Gay Activist Alliance of New York City in the firehouse of GAA and at the Stonewall and at the Church of the Beloved Disciples, which was the first gay church in 1970 to raise money for the Church of the Beloved Disciples. [01:13:41] Julie Trainum: Okay. [01:13:42] Jimmy Flowers: And also, at that time, they called them hot pants. And that was part... I had black boots and a black cowboy hat and with the saccadone lights. That was part of my outfit. [01:13:55] Julie Trainum: Okay, great. And let's go back over here to this T-shirt here. This is really neat. 15 �[01:14:02] Jimmy Flowers: Well, I was the marshal of the... In 1983, one of the marshals, which is one of the grand marshals of the... You were chosen to be one of the persons that was involved in Stonewall and they called you a grand marshal. [01:14:28] Julie Trainum: Okay. [01:14:29] Jimmy Flowers: And this is the T-shirt from the 25th anniversary of Stonewall, which Stonewall would include all lesbians and gays from all over the world. [01:14:40] Julie Trainum: Okay. [01:14:40] Jimmy Flowers: And marched on the United Nations building to show that we want lesbian and gay rights throughout the world. [01:14:49] Julie Trainum: Okay. [01:14:50] Julie Trainum: And was this the Marshall T-shirt you were studying? [01:14:54] Julie Trainum: Yeah. [01:14:54] Jimmy Flowers: Which was 1983. [01:14:57] Julie Trainum: That's great. Okay. [01:15:01] Julie Trainum: And this banner? [01:15:02] Jimmy Flowers: That's the Stonewall banner which was given to me by Ed Murphy in late 70s. We all got one. As you see it's turning pink, but it was purple and gold. Lavender and purple and white is the lesbian and gay colors. [01:15:21] Julie Trainum: Okay. Great. Let's move over here and take a look at some of these buttons you have here. [01:15:28] Jimmy Flowers: Well, this shows you here in New York City in 1988. This was in the 80s. The gay 90s are coming. This here is the P flag. [01:15:42] Jimmy Flowers: This was the symbol for gay black of Africans, America, Americans. [01:15:50] Jimmy Flowers: This was the button on March of 87 to the White House. And this button here was printed in 1971, gay love, it's the real thing. This here was printed in 1970, I'm a man's man. This here is lesbian gay vote 89. And this was the first march in 1979 on Washington, National March. This is a button that says I support lesbian gay rights. This button here is the quilt, the names of the project. And this here says fight for lesbian gay rights, liberation. And you see the fist in the air means power to the people. [01:16:43] Julie Trainum: You told me one time how many buttons you actually collected when you had all of them. Do you remember how many? [01:16:48] Jimmy Flowers: Oh, I remember how many. Yes, definitely. Before I left New York in 89, I donated over 2,000 lesbian gay buttons to the Lesbian Gay Community Center. I also donated over 1,500 lesbian gay books that was printed from the 50s and 60s to the Lesbian Gay Community Center and the original lesbian gay flag. [01:17:14] Julie Trainum: What I'd like to do is just to get you to summarize, if you would, some of the ideas that you have about what you'd like to see happen in Tulsa. [01:17:25] Jimmy Flowers: Well, number one, I'd like to see Oklahoma wake up and smell the flowers. And also to see more unity instead of more divided. The hungry power should stop the dividing of lesbians and gays and young gays and older gays and black gays and lesbian black gays. What I am seeing now is what I feel like sometimes I'm reliving the 70s and the 80s all over again. What I'd like to see is more unity among all of us. The young, the old, the black, the white, and even some of the straight people in the community to get involved. 16 �[01:18:14] Jimmy Flowers: And also get the politicians to wake up and realize that we are here, we're not going away, we're going to be out there marching. But I insist, let's march peacefully, no violence. We must do it in unity. Once we step outside of the door, we must show numbers, unity, and strength. And let the politicians and the media and the Christians know that we mean business. That we are Americans and we're human beings and we are children of God. And we're just like anybody else. [01:19:04] Jimmy Flowers: We come from poor to black to rich, middle class, upper class, or lower class, and even homeless people. There are homeless people out there who has HIV and AIDS and they're not hardly getting no help at all. There's people from all over here that we have to educate the politicians that it's not a gay disease. It's a human disease and we must put a stop to it now. I say to the gay youth, come out, be proud, and be careful, and play safe. Show affection, be yourselves, and start marching. [01:19:54] Julie Trainum: Thanks, Jim. 17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource Physical Media: Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007 Digital Media: Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data VHS Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 hour 20 minutes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [c. 2000] The Jimmy Flowers Story Subject The topic of the resource Jimmy Flowers Interview for Tulsa Youth Discovering Diversity Description An account of the resource From Julie Tucker - Trainum, August 2019 - Jimmy Flowers was one of the very first members of the AIDS Coalition in Tulsa. He was a young man when he was part of Stonewall and in his interview he talks about Stonewall. Jimmy died in the mid 2000s. He was interviewed so we could share his story at the YST support group "Tulsa Youth Discovering Diversity." Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jimmy Flowers, Julie Tucker-Trainum, Youth Services of Tulsa, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Interview was conducted in 1999 or 2000 1999 2000 AIDS AIDS Coalition of Tulsa HIV interview Jimmy Flowers Julie Tucker-Trainum OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Stonewall transcript Tulsa Youth Discovering Diversity video Youth Services of Tulsa YST