33 20 681 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/d9c8a6149f14a01008d49c6d3f611a9e.pdf b4ccfe0cef6ae75fb4be9ca4125dc32d PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins (and Dennis Neill) Date: March 19, 2026 Edited By: Dennis Neill using Riverside Studio AI, March 21th, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Summary This interview with Pat Hobbs and John Orsulak explores their 36-year relationship, their careers in theater, music, and education, and their activism within the LGBTQ community in Tulsa. They share personal stories, insights on community involvement, and their vision for a more inclusive future. Keywords LGBTQ, Tulsa, theater, activism, community, aging in place, Rainbow Room, cohousing, Pride, advocacy Key Topics  Personal stories of Pat Hobbs and John Orsulak  Their careers in theater, music, and education  Involvement in LGBTQ advocacy and community building  The vision for the Rainbow Room and co-housing in Tulsa Chapters 00:00 Introduction to the Oklahoma LGBTQ History Archives 02:59 Love Story: Pat and John's Journey Together 05:49 Childhood and Early Influences 08:57 Navigating Identity and Sexual Orientation 12:00 The Impact of AIDS on Personal Lives 14:58 Career Paths and Community Involvement 17:49 Theater and Music: A Shared Passion 2 �20:53 Family Dynamics and Acceptance 23:58 Reflections on Life and Legacy 39:31 Theater Memories and Personal Triumphs 42:08 Integrity in Arts Organizations 43:27 Reflections on the Catholic Church and Leadership 45:22 The Journey of Finale's Restaurant 52:40 Y2K and the Impact on Business 54:50 Gardening and Community Living 56:28 The Vision Behind Heartwood Commons 01:01:32 The Role of the Rainbow Room in Tulsa 01:09:42 Theater Community Health and Future 01:14:38 Being a Face of the LGBTQ+ Community 01:18:39 Messages for Future Generations John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Oral History Interview March 19, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Today is March 19th, 2026. We are at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library interviewing today two wonderful people for our Oklahoma LGBTQ History Archives. Present in the room is Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality. Amanda Thompson, our archivist, and Toby Jenkins. Could you tell us your names? Pat Hobbs: I'm Pat Hobbs. John Orsulak: I'm John Orsulak. Toby Jenkins: And just to kick this off, how long have you been together? Pat and John: 36 years. Toby Jenkins: Now, we're interviewing this couple together and then we're going to find out a little bit about their lives. But I think for our purposes today, I'd like to start out with this question, because I know Oprah would ask. How did y'all meet? Pat Hobbs: Oh, Lord. In church. John Orsulak: Well, church rectory. At the time, I was a church music director at a small Catholic church in Bay City, Michigan, birthplace of Madonna. And the staff was invited over to the rectory for Thanksgiving. And the pastor I worked for was gay. Not that that makes any difference. But anyway, he had the staff over. Pat was visiting a mutual friend of ours who happened to be living there at the time. And Pat 3 �came into the kitchen and we started talking about theater. My ex at the time also showed up at the time, and he'd had a few. But we just hit it off and then... go ahead. Pat Hobbs: Well, we hit it off and he invited me to breakfast on Monday before I left town. And we started a long-distance conversation for about a month. And we met for the next time in Chicago for New Year's Eve. And I spent New Year's in Chicago. John Orsulak: I came down for Valentine's. Pat Hobbs: He came down in February to meet Tulsa. It was his Tulsa debut at Jerry Jackson's and Jeff Feist House for a big party. And then it just evolved. John Orsulak: You came in April. Pat Hobbs: I came in April, went back up there. And it was just kind of a decision. Who's got the better job? He was in music and he can do that anywhere. And I had a really good job here at the time. So we just decided to move here. And John moved down July 4th weekend. Toby Jenkins: And what year would that have been? Pat Hobbs: That was 1990. John Orsulak: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: All right. Well, let's find out how you two people became smitten with each other. What led to that moment? Pat, tell us about your childhood and your family. Pat Hobbs: Well, I'm the second of four boys growing up in Southeast Texas. My dad was a lieutenant colonel in the Marines. So we were his four Marine Corps boys. My baby brother was gay. He was five years younger than me. But we didn't realize that until 1990. So I grew up in Beaumont, Texas and spent time at the farm up in Newton County. And just considered myself kind of a country boy at some point. Toby Jenkins: So where did you go to high school? Pat Hobbs: Went to high school in Beaumont, Texas. Toby Jenkins: Beaumont, Texas. And what year did you graduate? Pat Hobbs: 1970. Toby Jenkins: So it's 1970. What was the world like in 1970, your world? Pat Hobbs: Oh, it was hippie time and it was protest time. Protesting the Vietnam War. Nixon was president. A lot of politics going on. But the draft was going on too. And sending kids overseas to fight in a war that we didn't, many of us didn't believe in. Luckily, I had a very high draft number and I didn't go. Toby Jenkins: So you never did get called up? Pat Hobbs: Never got called up. Toby Jenkins: What were your interests in school? 4 �Pat Hobbs: All my interests in high school were band and theater. And when I was in high school, I went with a friend to help him audition. They convinced me to audition and I got the lead. And it was the first thing I'd ever done. So it was one of those real quick things that, oh, this is fun. Toby Jenkins And what was the production? Pat Hobbs: It was a play called See How They Run. Toby Jenkins: Okay, it wasn't a musical. Pat Hobbs: No, we didn't do musicals in high school because the drama department did not speak to the choir department. They were at the same period, so we never did a musical. But I always loved them. Toby Jenkins: So that piqued your interest in performance. Were you in the band? Pat Hobbs: I was in the band, marching band. I played tuba. Toby Jenkins: Tuba. Pat Hobbs: I played tuba in the marching band. Toby Jenkins: And it probably was bigger than you were. Pat Hobbs: It was bigger than me, but you know, I placed first my junior and senior year. I placed first in competition. Toby Jenkins: In tuba. In Texas. Pat Hobbs: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Well, of course you did. You've always been an overachiever. Pat Hobbs: And then I actually won a state award my senior year. I was the first from our high school since 1952 to win a state UIL, University Interscholastic League award for boys' prose reading. And my winning selection was James Thurber's Unicorn in the Garden. Toby Jenkins: Wow, How appropriate. Okay. So this was 1970. Do you happen to remember how many were in your graduating class from Beaumont? Pat Hobbs: 289. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so it was a mid-sized Texas town. Did you go to college after that? Technical school? Pat Hobbs: I went to SMU the following fall and spent four years at. Toby Jenkins: And SMU is? Pat Hobbs: Southern Methodist University. I was a theater major my first year. And it was just a weird time for me because I thought there were a bunch of weirdos in the theater department. I wasn't out, but there were just a lot of weirdos. I mean, gay people. You know, what I thought were gay people. And I ended up transferring over to the business school and got a degree in accounting and finance but kept my love 5 �for theater and performing. And I would do all-school talent shows when it didn't involve the theater. Toby Jenkins: At SMU? Pat Hobbs: Uh-huh, when it didn't involve the theater department, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Did you, by then, you're a college student. Did you, how do you identify? What is your sexual orientation? Pat Hobbs: At college? Toby Jenkins: Well, now. Pat Hobbs: Oh, now I'm gay. Toby Jenkins: Okay, what about at college? Pat Hobbs: I was straight, struggling. Toby Jenkins: Okay, but you had that sexual attraction to persons of the same sex. Pat Hobbs: I did, but, you know, it took a long time to get to the point, to actual coming out. Toby Jenkins: So you got a accounting degree from SMU. Pat Hobbs: I did. Toby Jenkins: And what happened after that? Pat Hobbs: You know, I had a job there in Dallas, and then I was dating a young woman, and she had a family business here in Tulsa. Their accountant retired, so they asked me if I would come to work for them here in Tulsa, so that's how I got to Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: And what year was that? Pat Hobbs: I worked for them, that was in 76, and worked for them until 1987. Toby Jenkins: Now, were you married? Pat Hobbs: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And how long were you married? Pat Hobbs: 11 years. Toby Jenkins: 11 years. Any children? Pat Hobbs: No children. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And during that 11 years, were there any kind of struggles over that? Did you have a sense of insecurity in your sexuality, or were you comfortable in that relationship? 6 �Pat Hobbs: I was very comfortable in it until the last couple of years, and there was this desire to see what's out there, you know? Toby Jenkins: Okay. John, tell us about your childhood. John Orsulak: Oh, gosh. Born in 1954. I'm the youngest of six. I have three brothers, two sisters, and also a stepsister, which was later, after I was an adult. Used to be, I think, current count on nieces and nephews is 13, though I do have some grand, or great, whatever it is, nieces and nephews now, and I think I'm even now getting to the great, great stage, which is weird. Lived in Danville, Illinois, hometown of Dick Van Dyke, Donald O'Connor, Gene Hackman, Bobby Short, and myself. It's mid-size at the time, blue-collar, Hyster, a lot of GM plants and things, they're all shuttered now and the town is kind of drying up sort of. I graduated in 72 from Danville High School, was involved in choir, got involved in junior high and then that transferred into high school. My high school choral teacher, Helen Wolfe, was instrumental in getting me into the drama department or a drama club and I don't, I'm trying to think, I was more behind the scenes than on stage at the time and ended up for some weird quirk the president of the club my senior year. While I was in choir, the music department held their very first two musicals while I was there. My junior year it was Brigadoon. I have a picture that was in the yearbook of me within my kilt with a hand up and it looks very gay, as far as the skirt a little hiked up on the leg. And then the second, the senior year was Little Abner and I was just, I think I was the milkman. But that was really the last theater I did for many years. I went to Danville Junior College to, now it's Community College, and got my degree there. That was the era of Streakers, had my first experience with people streaking down the quad, that was interesting. And then went, transferred to Illinois State University and got my degree in elementary ed. Toby Jenkins: And where was that? John Orsulak: Normal, Illinois. Bloomington Normal, where State Farm is located, their headquarters. Didn't do any theater, got very active with the Newman Club there, was involved in all kind of things. Toby Jenkins: So you were Roman Catholic. John Orsulak: Right, right. Toby Jenkins: Did you, you talked about theater, when did you become a musician? When did you become... John Orsulak: Oh gosh, I did that back as a kid. My grade school that I went to, St. Joseph's, which is no longer in existence, long time. They had a small pipe organ they needed somebody to play. I was, had taken piano and just kind of self-taught myself and would play for services. And then that just kind of evolved over time. I really didn't do anything that I recall in college. When I got out, I had my degree, I worked for the Catholic school. Our parish merged with another one, because that was the time small parishes had to do that. And so I taught at what was then, used to 7 �be St. Patrick's, now is Holy Family. I don't even think it's in existence now. Catholic school was seventh and eighth grade, language arts to start with, was doing no theater at all. Still would do the church music. For me as a kid, it was an escape at recess to go over and practice, just so I didn't have to deal with sports and bullying or anything else on the playground. But a friend of mine who had got her degree in theater at Illinois State, talked me into auditioning for a production, local theater production of Annie Get Your Gun. And so did that, chorus, and then from that point on, I basically got hooked, because the next show I got a featured role, Mr. Snow in Brigadoon, not Brigadoon, [ Pat added Carousel] yeah, that one. Thank you. And then just kind of off and on things there, I decided to get out of education, because I was drawn more toward church music, and went back to the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana to get my undergrad work in music. Had to audition for voice, so I had to take voice as part of it. And when I walked into the audition studio, here is William Warfield. Old Man River himself, sitting there, and I'm singing, you know, I'm in my probably mid-20s by then, and it was, you know, I don't recall anything. It was just kind of a blur. It was just seeing him but did that and then continued working and doing church work, moved to a small parish in Decatur, Illinois, if you know where that is. Was there a year, got fired, didn't work. I was a little too progressive for them because at the Newman Center, it was a very progressive Newman Center, and I mean the priests didn't wear a collar, the the woman who was religious, you know, didn't wear a habit. It was very laid-back, very contemporary. Toby Jenkins: Lots of folk music. John Orsulak: Yes, sang a lot of Godspell, things like that. But I did that and then went back from there, came back to my home parish in Danville, worked there for a while, and then went to Bloomington, which was the sister city of where I went to college, Bloomington Normal. Worked at the church there for a year. It didn't work out, though I did get a chance to participate in the renovation of the church, which was, that was a big deal. It was an old Art Deco style, but then they really stripped a lot out and got it. I don't know what it looks like now. Toby Jenkins: So was your career, just like Pat’s was accounting, was your career in church music? John Orsulak: I thought it was going to be. I did it for, I taught for five years and then went into church music full-time and then when I moved here, that's what I thought I was going to do and continue. And at the time there was only, I think, one parish that had any kind of an opening and just didn't feel, just moving here and experiencing their version of Catholic liturgy, they were so far behind. About ten, I was spoiled with a very progressive bishop and again, he was one that you taught, you called him Ken, you didn't call him Bishop, and it was just very laid-back. During that time when I was in Michigan, it's when I had my first relationship with a man and just kind of then met him [Pat] and the rest was history. Toby Jenkins: So during that time how did you identify and what is your sexual orientation? 8 �John Orsulak: Now I'm definitely gay. Back then it was, I think I'm straight. It didn't really feel right. It was, you know, there was a little experimentation here and there and I had one person at a rehearsal, no, it was a cast party after a show, who pursued me home and I was scared to death. I mean, I went to the garage, turned off the lights, got in the house as quickly as I could, turned off the lights and, you know, now I converse with him occasionally through Facebook and that's, you know, and there's no issue with that at all, but yeah, it was church music for a long time when I moved here and there wasn't anything available. I just went back to what I knew, which was education. So I got back to doing subbing in different school districts. I became popular, so to speak, in Jenks because they got to know me well. They liked me and I was offered a position to open the southeast campus when it first opened and from that point on I worked for Jenks over 20 years, fifth grade mainly. Toby Jenkins: Did Jenks school, did they know you were gay? John Orsulak: I wasn't out, but people knew. They knew and parents figured it out. I think a lot of parents did. The biggest controversy, occasionally he would be with me and I just would sidestep it, but... Pat Hobbs: May I interject here? John Orsulak: Go ahead. Pat Hobbs: So if any of you know about the Malcolm Baldrige Award, it's a highly prestigious award given by the Department of Transportation, no, Department of Commerce. Three or four companies a year win this award. Jenks schools won it. Mesa Products won it three times, twice when I was with them, so we called ourselves the Baldrige Boys. Well, when they made the presentation at the Hyatt, or the Marriott, it's now the Marriott down there, they had a nice little presentation thing at 7 o'clock one night, and I was late getting there, John was sitting at a big table of eight with his principal, and they left the chair open for me to come in next to the principal, and I came in and I sat down, and the principal did this, he actually moved his chair two feet away when I sat next to him. John Orsulak Yeah, that was uncomfortable, to say the least. Pat Hobbs: It was very uncomfortable. Toby Jenkins: And that was what year? John Orsulak: That was, oh gosh, that was... Toward the end. 2 Pat Hobbs: 2011, 20... I was at Mesa seven years, 2010, 2011. Toby Jenkins: So towards the end of your career in teaching at Jenks, did you see the culture change where administration and maybe other teachers were more supportive? John Orsulak: It was never an issue. People met Pat, they were comfortable with him. My co-workers, we never discussed it, but they were fine with him, they had no issues. About the only thing that really was controversial with me was for my 40th, I 9 �decided to pierce my ear. I had just done a production of Annie here locally, had done the whole bald head thing, and I was growing it back. And so I had just a poster, a hoop in. Well, there were parents that were just aghast, and they tried to get me to either, I don't know if they were trying to get rid of the earring or get rid of me, and one of the assistant superintendents, who I knew well and they knew me well, supported me and told them no. And from that point on, it was not... Pat Hobbs: But you even had the support of the superintendent, Kirby Lehman, back then. You know how they do prom pictures in Woodward Park? Every Friday and Saturday night during the spring, you can't find a place to park because all the kids are taking prom pictures. Well, living across the street from the park, our driveway was a turnaround, and we saw Dr. Lehman down the street. He became a really good friend of ours through some work with Theater Tulsa, and he came over and had a glass of wine with us. You know, it was our home, you know, come in while you're getting your pictures made, you know. John Orsulak: What do you do? Do you invite him in? Pat Hobbs: Yeah, invite him in and have a glass of wine. John Orsulak: And that was the year, had a young man drive up in a vintage Mustang with his girlfriend for pictures. And we're out there with a cocktail in hand, gawking at how people are dressed, like we normally did. And this kid looks over to me and says, hi, Mr. O, and he told me his name, and I immediately knew it was a former student of mine, but it was not, it was no big deal. And here are the two of us, I was like, okay, he's figured that out. But, yeah, it's... Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so your house faced Woodward Park. What was the street there? John and Pat: Rockford. Toby Jenkins: Rockford. So, well, you talked a little bit about your career and how you ended up in Tulsa. Did you want to talk any more about what your other interests, like how you got into the theater community here, or, I know you had that day job as an accountant. Pat Hobbs: Oh, yeah, but that was just a day job, you know, it paid the bills. Since 19... I had moved here in 76 and auditioned for a show in 77 for Theater Tulsa and did shows for them ever since. Did shows for all the theater companies here in town just about once, two, three, four times a year, you know, kept it up. Toby Jenkins: I know that you developed a character who became kind of wellknown, kind of a comedian musical character, you want to tell us about that? Pat Hobbs: Danny Day? Danny Day is almost a, oh, I don't know what to call it now…autobiographical story. He started in theater when he was five, playing Tiny Tim. And he was 55, the last time he was on stage he was 55, 60 years old. And he had done all the shows. He had done all the musicals in town. Sometimes two or three times. Sometimes this part. Sometimes he had a lead. Sometimes he had a supporting role. But he knew all the gossip. He knew all the scoop about what was 10 �going on in town. And he knew where the bodies were buried. He knew who slept with whom, and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it was a little character I made up. But it was very autobiographical at the same time. Toby Jenkins: It was very popular. You did it several times. Pat Hobbs: I did, yeah. Toby Jenkins: So you came to Tulsa, what year was it? Pat Hobbs: 76. Toby Jenkins: And I know you were married, and then you divorced. You were in Tulsa, this was, let's talk about before, and then John would have been still in Illinois, correct, during that period. You're men who are figuring yourselves out. Tell me about the first time you heard about AIDS. John Orsulak: Oh gosh. Pat Hobbs: Probably on TV. Probably? John Orsulak: Yeah, I really can't think of a date or a year either. Pat Hobbs: Early to mid 80s. 83, 84, 85. Toby Jenkins: Did you see the impact of that on maybe people that associated with the churches you were working for? Did you see an impact on friends, family? John Orsulak: I didn't really until I moved here. And got involved with the center. Pat Hobbs: And the Names Project. John Orsulak: Yeah, and then Billy. Pat Hobbs: And then my brother. Toby Jenkins: Okay, tell us about that. Pat Hobbs: Billy's five years younger than me. He was born in 1957. And it's a really lovely story, but he came out to me and John. We were all in New York one weekend for New Year's, and he came out to us at the dinner table one night, and we had no idea. I mean, just absolutely no idea. And we had this wonderful relationship for about three or four years. We'd go down to Houston where he lived. He'd come up here to Tulsa. We just had a really grand old gay time. He even had a parking place at J.R.'s, a private parking place at J.R.'s in Houston. He was so popular. But it was right after mother died, and we were, in fact, it was the day after, the afternoon after her funeral, and the four of us boys were sitting on the front porch. You know, it was, the will was cut and dried. We all knew what was gonna go on. And we were talking about the farm, what we were gonna do with the farm. And we're sitting there in our rocking chairs, just rocking back and forth like this. And he stands up and had a cigarette going, and he threw the cigarette out in the yard, and he said, it doesn't make any goddamn difference to me. I'm dying of the 11 �fucking AIDS. And he got up and he walked off in the woods. And about a month later, I got a call from a friend of his in Houston. And he said, I think you need to come down one weekend. You know, come down, see what's going on. So from that point on, John and I, we either drove down or we flew down every other weekend for a year to make sure he had food in the house, care in the house, a clean house, do all the things that we could do from a distance. John Orsulak: And it was right before the cocktail. Pat Hobbs: And it was right before, right before. Toby Jenkins: So it was 1995. Explain the cocktail. Pat Hobbs: 1995. John Orsulak: Gosh, originally it was just ATZ. Then other drugs, combinations came about that helped prolong life. And for Billy, it was just, he was too far gone. Pat Hobbs: Six months, six months. John Orsulak: Luckily he had good hospice care toward the end. Pat Hobbs: We had, yeah, very good hospice care. Toby Jenkins: This would have been what year? Pat Hobbs: 95. Toby Jenkins: And he would have been how old, Pat? Pat Hobbs: 37. Toby Jenkins: 37, yeah. Dennis Neill: Pat, how did your other brothers deal with it? Pat Hobbs: I'm just gonna say that my other brother between the two of us, what do we tell people he died off. That's as much as I'm going to say. But we found a hospice in Houston, Omega House, and it was just like, similar to St. Joseph's here in Tulsa, where the designers had taken a room and designed a room. And it was small, it was there in the Montrose area of Houston. And that's where he spent the last six or eight weeks of his life. And if you recall the pictures you saw on television of people in their last stages, the wasting syndrome, the weight loss, that's what Billy was. His wasn't a, I'm not going to say it wasn't a dignified death. Physically it was not a dignified death. What we did going down there was make sure that he died a dignified death by having food and help and making sure his will was properly prepared before he died. But his was one of the worst, wasting, devastating deaths. John Orsulak: But your nieces were very supportive. Pat Hobbs: They were very supportive. And they were very young, too. Toby Jenkins: Now, you told us that your brother, you and John, had already been together. Had you come out to your family as gay? 12 �Pat Hobbs: You know, I... John Orsulak: First time I met the family was at his father's funeral. Pat Hobbs: At my father's funeral. And, you know, John drove down to Texas and we buried Daddy. And from then on, it was, he was fixing mommy drinks at five o'clock every afternoon. I didn't have to say anything. You know, it was just... Toby Jenkins: So his mother met you. John Orsulak: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Pat Hobbs: And mother's uncle was gay. He had two long-term relationships, Uncle Fred, that we grew up with. So it wasn't a surprise to her. You know, she never said anything. I never said, hey, mom. You know, but he was always there at the house. John Orsulak: Tell the story of when I was moving. When we stopped in Danville. Pat Hobbs: Oh, oh, yeah. This is his dad. So we were moving down from Michigan. And we had a U-Haul van filled with his stuff and had the car towed behind. And we stopped at his folks' house in Danville to spend the night. And it was a tiny little house, and a tiny little bedroom that we were in with a tiny little almost twin bed that we shared. And we got up the next morning and had breakfast and getting ready to move on. And his dad takes me aside. His dad says, take care of my son. John Orsulak: No more words. Pat Hobbs: Take care of my son. John Orsulak: Yeah, it was never discussed. It was just a given. Yeah. Pat Hobbs: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Still welcomed by your family. John and Pat: Oh, very much. John Orsulak: When I come home, where's Pat? Toby Jenkins: Okay. Well, you're fortunate. I think you know that. But you're fortunate that you found each other. And you're fortunate that your families maintain the relationship. Tell us a little bit about some of your, I mean, you both had careers. But tell us a little bit about some of the things that you began to get involved in here in Tulsa. All of the organizations and the things that were passionate to you and the projects. Pat Hobbs: Oh, geez. How can you, you know, over the years, how many boards did I serve on? Including this one, twice. You know, of course, the arts have always been a passion of mine. And I've served on the AHHA board. I was on staff at Mayfest for a while. The Tulsa Garden Center. Anything creative and artistic, I was either on the board or on staff at some point, volunteer staff. And then got involved here at OkEq back in 2001 or 2002, when Brent Ortolani was president. And the previous president was Michelle. Help me out. She's in Kansas now. [Michelle Hoffman.] 13 �Anyway, because of my accounting background, they asked me if I would be treasurer. And this was when the center was located at 21st and Memorial. And I would go down and do the books on Sunday mornings while you'd go to church. I'd go down and do the books at this office we had down there that had no heat. I would bundle up in my coat to go down there. We didn't even have, we had, it wasn't even QuickBooks or Quicken, and it was some very, very elementary software program that we had. And it took maybe a couple hours to go in and write checks. And I think our total budget at the time was maybe $19,000. It was just, yeah, very grassroots at the time, if you will. And the smell from the bar next door, from being open on a Saturday night, I'd come home and have to hang my clothes outside on a Sunday afternoon just to get rid of the smoke that was in the office in the afternoon. But yeah, I served as treasurer for a couple of years until some health issues took over. And I had to relinquish those to Dwight [Kealiher]. And Dwight took over until the organization kept growing and growing and growing. We had $21,000 in the bank. This is one of my reports. 2021. Oh, wow. Just when the Pyramid Project was in its infancy. Toby Jenkins: So John, he said, so were you still playing, doing music for a congregation here at the time? John Orsulak: Not at first. I did do a little bit with one congregation. It didn't last long. Pat Hobbs: You did St. John's for a while. John Orsulak: Right. I was there at Jerome's, but it didn't last terribly long. Toby Jenkins: I think there were some, I don't remember what the reason was, but it just didn't work. Pat Hobbs: Political issues. John Orsulak: Yeah. Yeah. Probably more interpersonal things. But no, I really got back into education. And then because I moved here and we already had the love of theater between us, within a month, I was cast in a show. It wasn't a musical, but started my career with Theater Tulsa and then just kind of branched out into musicals. Toby Jenkins: So when he says he was working on the books and you were at church, are you still active in that? John Orsulak: No. No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. John Orsulak: I haven't been for a long time. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dennis Neill: Excuse me. John, what was your favorite acting role that you've... 14 �John Orsulak: Oh my gosh. That's a tough one. Probably the one that I'm proudest of, it was probably the hardest role I had to do was Juan Peron in Evita. Not only did I have to dye my hair, because it's very gray, the best they could do was a dark brown, but musically it was some of the toughest stuff I ever had to learn. And I'd have to drill and drill and drill because it was very atonal, but it was this critical speech I do on a balcony and just getting through that was a triumph for me because it was a challenge. Otherwise, things came fairly easy, so it was nice to get a challenge that would push you a little bit more. Now, we've kind of aged out. Roles are few and far between. Dennis Neill: So with that Evita role, that was not that long ago, right? John Orsulak: What would you say? 10, 15? Pat Hobbs: It was probably 10 years ago. Dennis Neill: Oh, it was that long ago? Pat Hobbs: Yeah. John Orsulak: Yeah. Dennis Neill: And then Pat, how about you? Your favorite role and then also your favorite board position? All the non-profits you've served on. Pat Hobbs: Oh, my favorite role by far is Zaza, the Drag Queen in La Cage. Dennis Neill: And you did that as Tulsa... Pat Hobbs: Tulsa Project Theater, and it was an equity show, I got equity points. I'm equity eligible for that show. Dennis Neill: And how much did you get paid? Pat Hobbs: Oh, it was a hundred dollars. But the story I like to tell about that is that the end of Act I is when Albin is out there, or Zaza is in her full sequins and feathers and everything, dismisses the entire cast and sings the gay anthem, I Am What I Am, and it closes Act I. And I had the privilege of singing with an 18-piece Tulsa Symphony Orchestra in that show. It's Jerry Herman. It's horns. It's a beautiful orchestration. But here I am on stage by myself for the last five minutes singing this wonderful, wonderful song. And I realized on, it was dress rehearsal, when you're just totally in that role and you're totally singing, and you finish that last number, and you rip that wig off, and the curtain comes down, and there's nobody around you. You've just done the performance of your life, and there is, the cast has gone upstairs to change clothes for Act II. The only person on your left over here is the stage manager who calls curtain. There's nobody else on stage, nobody to catch it. And it's like, so after that happened on dress rehearsal, I asked my co-star Chris, who was my husband in the show, I said, would you please stand offstage on stage right and just hold me when I come off? Because you just exposed every nerve and every emotion in your body singing this wonderful gay anthem. And I just needed 15 �somebody to hold me, you know? So from there on, for every performance, Chris was there to catch me. But I love that. That was my... Dennis Neill: I loved the show. Pat Hobbs: I would love to do that again, too. Favorite board position. Oh, geez. You know, Dennis, my integrity, my professional accounting integrity, has gotten the best of me sometimes, being a board member. And specifically with a couple of arts organizations here in town who were doing the wrong thing and blowing through Harwelden money like they were going to get it next year, you know, get the same amount next year. And they kept blowing through it and they didn't have their policies and procedures in place. I'm not going to say I have the best organization I stayed on, okay, that I served on. But there were some fun moments for all of them. But all of my integrity got to me on a couple of them, really, and just had to walk away. Toby Jenkins: I wanted to ask this. We were... I was going to ask you about... You had worked for these churches and apparently still were connected, so you're no longer involved with the Catholic Church. As a former Catholic, I guess is the way I'd... What do you think about our present Pope? John Orsulak: Hopeful. The previous Pope, I liked him a lot, just he was on the right track. I don't know. I don't still... I'm waiting to see how he deals with people who are gay. The number of people who work for the church who are gay is... I think if people realized that, they'd be astounded. I worked for two gay pastors, very obviously, an assistant. And it's like, okay. Here locally, you just kind of wonder. I see a lot of cassocks and old school looks, and it's like, okay, what are you hiding from? Just not of interest to me anymore. I don't want to play the game. Toby Jenkins: It's still pretty profound though, that the world's number one religious leader for all of Christianity, whether they acknowledge him as their spiritual head, it's pretty significant that the last three or four years we've had a Pope who called us to treat people with dignity regardless of their journey. John Orsulak: John, the current one, he's from Illinois, my home state, and he's a Cubs fan, so you can't beat that. Good combination. Toby Jenkins: He's pretty critical of the United States' present positions on multiple issues, calls us out. Pat and John: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay, I just was curious about that. Now, let me ask you about this. Tell us about Finales. Pat Hobbs: Lord, really? John Orsulak: I need a drink. Pat Hobbs: That was the most expensive MBA anyone has ever gone through. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Pat Hobbs: I think we were kind of like Joseph in The Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat in that we were years ahead of our time, just ahead of our time. We 16 �found a space down here on First Street, and it was my dream to have a restaurant with entertainment, like Lucy and Desi, come down to the club. So we remodeled the first floor of the Jacobs Building down here on First Street and hired James Schrader as our chef, who ended up doing a dang good job of it. We hired people like you. We didn't know what we were doing, but we had fun at it at the same time. We had cast parties for opening night for several of the touring companies that would come in. The opening night cast party for Chicago was our biggest night that we ever had. My God, it was a fabulous evening. Beauty and the Beast, we had their cast party. And for all the local companies here in Tulsa, we have opening night cast parties, a place for people to go. Now they go to Kilkenny's or they go to McNeely's after a show. Toby Jenkins: So your vision was a restaurant with entertainment. Pat Hobbs: With entertainment, and it was before and after the theater. It was within walking distance. It was 476 steps from the Performing Arts Center. So if you're going to the Symphony or the Ballet, come have a nice dinner at 6, walk over to the PAC, come back and have coffee and dessert. Toby Jenkins: And so in those days, downtown was pretty deserted. Pat Hobbs: Oh, downtown. Toby Jenkins: You were it. Pat Hobbs: I think the May Rooms were still open. Toby Jenkins: And then across the railroad tracks was the Spaghetti Warehouse, but that was it. Pat Hobbs: That was it. Toby Jenkins: There were no other restaurants. Pat Hobbs: There was no Art District. Toby Jenkins: No other restaurants. Dennis Neill: And what's the time period? Pat Hobbs: This was 1998. 1998 to 2000. Toby Jenkins: And for our viewers, I was out and I needed a part-time job, and Pat and John, his partner, and his other folks who were there with him, took me under their arm and they taught me how to do fine dining. I didn't know how to, I never drank wine. They had to teach me how to serve it. But it was elegant. Tulsa's power people loved it. Tulsa's people who desired fine dining and entertainment supported it. Pat Hobbs: And we had a 1921 Steinway in the center of the restaurant. John Orsulak: You bought sight unseen. 17 �Pat Hobbs: I bought sight unseen out of California on the internet before they had pictures. John said, this is a drug deal going bad. And they delivered it to our house and I went, oh my God. Toby Jenkins: It was elegant. Pat Hobbs: It was, yeah. Toby Jenkins: But there was nothing in downtown Tulsa. Pat Hobbs: No, there was nothing. Toby Jenkins: Nobody lived in downtown Tulsa. There were no other restaurants. You were definitely pioneers of the revitalization and the restoration of our urban core, which we all take for granted. And younger people today just assume that it's always been like this. Because there was a period when downtown Tulsa was the place to be. And then everything left downtown Tulsa. And you and your colleagues were trying to, you could see it before others couldn't. Pat Hobbs: Well, thank you. Yeah, we just wanted to, the desire was to build it near the Performing Arts, find a place near the Performing Arts Center. And we looked two or three places before then. And the story goes, the name at the time was Finale's Cabaret and Restaurant. That is how we initially, and the word cabaret in Oklahoma in the 1990s did not mean the type of cabaret entertainment you see in New York City. That is musical theater, that's piano, piano bar, cabaret means strip clubs. So we found this place over here on Cincinnati and 2nd, right behind what was then Oklahoma Tire and Supply. It's now the Chinese place. And it was a twostory run-down building and we were gonna buy the building and renovate it. And then the word got over to the Williams Companies that cabaret, that a strip club was gonna open up across the street from the Williams Company's tower. And they came in and bought it out from under us and tore the building down because they didn't want a strip club because cabaret meant strip club. So we hunted for a couple of other places and found this one over on 1st Street, which wasToby Jenkins: And that was an old historical hotel. Pat Hobbs: That was an old historical hotel that was built in 21. Dennis Neill: And who was the landlord? Pat Hobbs: You know, the landlord, the legal landlord that owned the building or the one that... The legal landlord was a guy by the name of Ferretti and he lived in Oklahoma City. And he was this little short Italian guy who drove a big fancy Mercedes. I think he was mob related. But he owned the building and then Mike Sager got involved in it. And Michael Sager was the mouthpiece. And after we vacated the building, Sager had his name put at the top of the building, the Sager, but it's since gone. It's now Jacob, since Jacob's building again. But yeah, Michael Sager was the mouthpiece for Mr. Ferretti. Toby Jenkins: So this was going, and for our viewers, I was a waiter. And that is where I met Mary and Sharon Bishop Baldwin. They were there celebrating their anniversary. I was their waiter. I mean, it was a very, very elegant, impressive place 18 �to be. But I want to bring us to the place of closing night was what was going on in the world, closing night. Pat Hobbs: It was Y2K. You know, we had had, like I said, the night of Chicago was our biggest night. We had a private party in between the dinner hour and the cast party, and it was a big, and something happened in 1999, and the world was predicted to go dark because of the changeover, Y2K, 2000. Everything was gonna go, you're gonna lose your power. Nobody wanted to make New Year's Eve reservations. The year before, we had two turns. We turned that restaurant twice on New Year's Eve. This New Year's Eve, I think we may have had 80 reservations, and that was it. So we ended up catering a dinner for 37 up to the IT people up at Williams. So they, because they were on staff that night because we all knew the lights were gonna go out, and they didn't. Toby Jenkins: Oh yeah, we were afraid planes would fall out of the sky. Your current model cars would just shut down. Your computers would. Pat Hobbs: But you know, we were so hoping. I mean, you know, because restaurants are, you know, your margins are that big in a restaurant. And that was gonna get us through the next few months, you know, what we made off of New Year's Eve, and it just didn't happen. So we just kind of, we turned our own lights out. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so I want our viewers to know that it was Pat Hobbs' idea to revitalize downtown Tulsa. Pat Hobbs: Oh no. Toby Jenkins: And you know, that, in 1999, he saw the vision, and so the city councilors should name a street after you. Pat Hobbs: And like I said, it was a very expensive MBA. Toby Jenkins: So, you're together, you're in Tulsa, you have your careers, you have your interests. Dennis has already questioned you about your involvement in all the non-profits. During this time, what else has been going on in your life, and what was passionate to you? Pat Hobbs: Gardening, gardening. We loved our yard over on Rockford, designed, initially designed by Dave Collins, did a fantastic job. We even brought cypress trees up from the farm. We had some cypress trees cut and Dave designed a beautiful cypress deck for us. And that was our passion for many, many years was our yard. And John's even a Linnaeus, was Woodward Park Teaching Garden. John Orsulak: Yeah, yeah. Formerly Linnaeus. Pat Hobbs: And still, you still volunteer every Tuesday. John Orsulak: Tuesday, now, yeah. Toby Jenkins: With who? John Orsulak: The Teaching Garden at Woodward Park, formerly Linnaeus, that's a whole story. But, yeah, I do that just to keep my fingers in it, because it's, it was, well, 19 �when we moved from the house, we moved downtown for three years while we were waiting for Heartland Commons to be built. And we really had no place to do, I could still go out and do some things at the garden. He had nothing, and it was driving him nuts. And that's been the one blessing of our current home is we've got a yard that's pretty much nothing was there and gave him a place to play. Dennis Neill: And give us a little more background on your thoughts about forming Heartland Commons, your passion about that, some co-housing with you. John Orsulak: Oh, gosh. Pat Hobbs: Okay, real quick, I'll give you the condensed, real quick condensed version. Performer Melanie Fry, we all know Melanie Fry here in town, been performing for 50 years, just did a production of Love Letters back in, for Valentine's. Melanie thought she and her girlfriends would get together and play water volleyball and drink wine in the summertime. And they thought, well, wouldn't this be a great idea if we all, as we age, all bought homes in the same cul-de-sac, and we can all live together and watch and take care of each other. Well, as they researched that, they found the co-housing website, and co-housing was developed in Denmark back in the 60s. And one thing led to another, they had an introductory meeting, Melanie is no longer involved in the project, she was for a little while, but she got us started along with four other families that started this journey back in 2015, I think. John Orsulak: Sounds about right. Pat Hobbs: It's been about 11 years when the initial conversation got started. But it's all about aging in place, keep going. John Orsulak: Well, it's, it's, you get, you, it's about community and having a support network that you can depend on. The house is secondary, it's nice to have, it's a new build, the, you're, you walk through the community to do what you need to do. If you're going to get mail, it's kind of like a condo place where you do that, however, if somebody's on their front porch, in co-housing, you're considered fair game. And you can be, you can visit and interact. If they're on their back porch, you usually leave them alone. That's a private space, but you're walking to get your mail, which normally would take you what, five, 10 minutes, depending on where you were in the community. For us, and that would turn into a half hour or more because you keep running into people who want to visit, who want to interact In some communities, that means a glass of wine, bottle of beer, sitting on the rail of the porch and just interacting and it's, it makes for a healthier lifestyle for older, for senior co-housing compared to traditional co-housing that is multi-generational. But it just enhances, gives you more opportunity for interaction, stimulation. You've got somebody to depend on if you need a ride, if you're needing an egg. You put it out there, somebody, you'll end up with a dozen eggs just because people want to help you out. Toby Jenkins: Very secure. 20 �Pat Hobbs: Very secure. Pat Hobbs: And you kind of look out for each other. John Orsulak: Right. We're basically our own neighborhood watch. That's evolved. We've been there over a year and we've had a few issues, but we've been working them out and had the Riverside Police, which is just two doors down from us, come over one evening and talk to us about safe practices and what to do and what not to do. And it's good to have those relationships. Toby Jenkins: So it's intentional housing, not just organic where you may know your neighbors and they sell their house and a new person moves in and you may not care for them. These are all people you chose to be around. Pat Hobbs: Everybody's become their best friends now. And it's kind of like family too because you have personalities. And sometimes your personality is buttheads, especially in a, what do I want to say, a homeowner's association meeting. And that happens everywhere. But yeah, we have common meals twice or three times a week. And it's where one of the residents will be responsible for buying the provisions. And we have a commercial kitchen in our common house and they are a team will do this evening meal for six o'clock and do the cleanup and everybody chips in $7 for their meal. And we all got, we had how many first St. Patrick's Day about, 28 or 29 of us and had this St. Patrick's meal with corned beef and hash and cabbage and it's community meal. It's all about community. John Orsulak: Yeah, it's got its pros, it's occasional cons. But overall, it's been a good experience. Toby Jenkins: Let me deviate a little bit from this because I do feel like it was good that we talk about that because there are going to be more of us that are older and we, instead of just letting housing happen, this is you purposely planning, this is what… John Orsulak: Oh, we looked at over 50 properties when we were in the area, north, south, east, downtown. And actually, we rejected the property we're currently in originally but came back to it and we realized this is where we want to be. Pat Hobbs: And it's five acres located at 71st and Riverside in that vicinity and it was an old farm, two and a half acres per lot. So we took the five acres and our community pitched in and we bought the property, we secured the bank loan to do the construction. John Orsulak: We designed it. Pat Hobbs: We had consultants come in and design it. John Orsulak: But we have, the nice thing with co-housing is you have input. You're not dictated like a traditional senior living. Nothing wrong with them, if that's your thing, good. But we set the rules. We have our own, we call them agreements that we've developed so that everybody's on the same page. You're not told what to do. You can do as much as you want. If you want to be active, you can be active. If you 21 �want to stay in your home, you can stay at home. We've got a mahjong group. We've got puzzles and TV and movie nights and it's just kind of like, okay, that floats your boat. You can be there. If not, you can just stay at home and curl up with your dog or cat if you have one. And yeah. Toby Jenkins: So thank you for sharing about this because this is, we've covered kind of a lot of areas. I want to, what a lot of people may know you for is here at the Lynn Riggs Theater in the Rainbow Room. Tell us a bit about your, just like Pat had the vision for the revitalization of downtown Tulsa with his pioneering days, he had a vision of he and John the Rainbow Room. And tell us a little bit about your vision for that in the Lynn Riggs Theater. Pat Hobbs: Well, let's go back to the 13 bullets for $13. That kind of, in my view, it kind of kicked this whole thing off when we had to replace the front windows. And that snowballed into basically an international fundraising campaign. But turning the garage downstairs into a theater. Thanks to David Nelson's help and Dennis's help and everybody else, I mean there were dozens of us on that team that were consulting on this thing. But we opened it in February of 2018. 2018, which was eight years ago. And I thought about it for a while and I thought, you know, let's do something fun with it. And I went over, I made the proposal to you, Toby. I remember going over to your house that afternoon and saying, I'd like to do this. Take it to the board or see what you have to do. And came up with the idea of Third Thursdays in the Rainbow Room. Which would be the third Thursday of every month. We do musical presentations. Now I say musical presentations. Tulsa has a plethora of talent in this town. And when people do their 32nd Chamber of Commerce elevator speech, they always talk about the arts. The philharmonic, the symphony, the ballet, the opera. But they don't really talk about the musical theater company. We have such a talented group of people in this town. And that was my vision, is to get some of these people, when they're not doing a show, to come in and do an hour and a half show. Come in and do a two-hour show. Do your own thing. If you want to do a one man show, do a one man show. If you've got half a dozen people, come in. And they're thematic. And I think one of the neatest things that I ever saw come out of this was a knight of musical theater. K-N-I-G-H-T, a knight of musical theater. And it was all songs from Camelot and Something's Rotten and Spamalot. And it was all songs about knights in musical theater. We've had some wonderful talent come through here though. We only had two presentations in 2020 because of COVID. But we've had over 60, 61, I counted them today. We've had 61 individual presentations as part of the third Thursdays. And now it's just Thursdays in the Rainbow Room because you can't just do the third Thursday. There's so much going on in town that people schedule. You've got to have it listed on a Thursday. But we've had 61 different performers. Janet Rutland, who is one of the most talented singers in Northeast Oklahoma, does her show in the Rainbow Room every two years. The latest one she did is around the Hollywood Campfire with John Wooley. And it has taken off, and she has performed that show all around Oklahoma this last year, but she premiered it here. Travis Guillory did his first drag show here. And it was three years ago, so it was 2023, I think he did his first drag Christmas. And look at him, Travis is now Miss Gay America. 22 �Toby Jenkins: Miss Gay America USA. Pat Hobbs: But we've had some wonderful, wonderful talent through this place. And I think it's exposed the center also. Having this little theater down here has exposed the Tulsa community to what we have. Many people have come in to see their friend perform, not just theater friends, but you know, like Janet, some of Janet's followings. They didn't even know it existed. They didn't know the Equality Center existed. You know, so they come down here and they, with our bar now and our seating, you know, they just, it's just like a little nightclub on a Thursday night. Dennis Neill: And Pat, do you think the opportunity for the performers to pocket a little bit of money, is that kind of a unique opportunity for some of these performers compared to the rest of them? Pat Hobbs: You know, absolutely, when you do musical theater, when you do community theater here in Tulsa, you don't get paid. It costs you two or three, $400 a show with meals and gas and costumes. But here you've got a chance to curate your own show. And the split that we've done with ticket sales is that the performers get 70% of the ticket sales. 30% goes back to the center. And you know, in most cases, that's eight, 900, $1,100 that goes back to the performer, you know, which, I don't know, you know, pays your pianist. It keeps, it's just a little enticement to keep people going, you know? Yeah. Dennis Neill: And knowing how important theater has been for both of you all this time, what do you think is the health of our theater community and where do you see it going in the future? Much like we've seen in other groups, there's a lot of small spinoffs and a lot of new theaters emerging. Are we healthy enough to support these and how do you feel like the direction is going to go for live theater? John Orsulak: That concerns me at this stage. Having moved, when I moved here, summer stage was still going on at the Performing Arts Center and that meant that was the only opportunity to do a musical for most, when Pat was doing Little Shop, or not Little Shop, Best Little Whorehouse when I moved here. And that was it. You had one show, one musical, and there were no touring companies coming around as I recall. A lot of straight plays, comedies, dramas, but if you aren't into that, it gave you no avenue. Now, I fear there have become so many splintered groups and so many organizations now within the community that it's almost spread too thin. They have so many opportunities now where these kids can do multiple shows in a year, multiple musicals in a year. But are there enough audience people to support it? It gets expensive. This past month, I don't know how many shows were going on, and the performers who want to go out and support their friends, they can't afford and they have to pick and choose. Okay, I can go to this show, but I'm gonna have to skip this one, or can I get to an IVR to see a rehearsal? Pat Hobbs: Our budget only allows us to go see so much. We're seeing, this is the third weekend of three weekends since we've been back, and it's like, okay, do we want to go? I want to go see my friends, but you know, yeah, there's a finite audience out there, I think, but they're doing some fantastic stuff. They're just doing some awesome, awesome shows. 23 �John Orsulak: And a lot of the, like Theatre Tulsa, for example, they've had ebbs and flows, the dips. So when I was there, it was an upswing, and then it had a major dip funding-wise, and they struggled, and they almost went under. But they clawed their way back up, and they've been able to, I think, restore, you know, there are always things you're always going to disagree with, as far as philosophy or structure. But, you know, Theatre Tulsa has that studio now, that used to be a dollar store, and it seems to be doing well. Pat Hobbs: It kind of makes me mad that they did that, because we've got this beautiful 100-seat theater here that they can use, but now they're using their own, because it doesn't cost them anything, you know? John Orsulak: But the nice thing with this theater, with Lynn Riggs, is it is small. It's a black box, so you have lots of flexibility on how it's used. You've got people, like Eli, running things, as far as the tech part of it. And it's big enough to do some good, solid productions, but it's small enough to be... Pat Hobbs: And we have done some really neat things here. I mean, when the Lynn Riggs can host the Tulsa Opera in a performance of I Love You, You're Perfect, Now Change, and do the job that they did, it was a beautiful production. And even Chamber Music Tulsa, you know, was booked in here. So, it's taken a few years, but, you know, word's getting out. Toby Jenkins: Well, I may be overreaching, and Dennis can slap me, but that's because of you. You made it happen. He made sure the resources were there, but you sold Tulsa on Lynn Riggs' theater. Dennis Neill: Yeah, you've helped bring Bill and Jason aboard to carry on some interesting... Pat Hobbs: I know, and I'm so, so excited about those two guys who bring just another level of energy, another age, another age group, and the way Bill and Jason have embraced the community, and the way the community have embraced Bill and Jason, to have this new Broadway Clubhouse come out here later this month is just so exciting. I can't wait. Toby Jenkins: Okay, I just want to ask you, I had a situation that...How does it feel to be the face of the gay community as an older couple? How does it feel? And by that I'm talking about the day that you were on the front cover of Life Senior Services. Pat Hobbs: Vintage Magazine. Toby Jenkins: Their very first openly gay married couple in Oklahoma. And how did that feel? And did you get any... I know that's incredible support, but I want to know, have y'all had experience pushback at your life in this time? John Orsulak: No, we've been told some people, what, three times over the years. I'm not saying we're normalized, but we certainly were nothing to be afraid of. And we believe in the community. We're the only gay couple at Heartwood Commons. That doesn't mean we won't have more, but we're accepted, we're not shunned. 24 �Pat Hobbs: I just wish that I had a publicist, because all these things just came about. I mean, there was no rhyme or reason. I don't have an agent. To have all these things happen, you know, Tulsa People three times, and Vintage Magazine, and then there's a couple more. They just happen. They just happen. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Vintage Magazine goes to 400,000 people. Did you know that? Pat Hobbs: No, I did not. Toby Jenkins: It's one of the largest senior publications in the country. Pat Hobbs: I feel honored. Well, you know how that came about. Toby Jenkins: No, you tell us. Pat Hobbs: My post-retirement gig at the Garden Center, I was keeping their books, and there was a young gentleman that was doing an internship in communications, coordinating website, Facebook, Instagram, and all of this. Actually, Vintage Tulsa called him to find…they wanted a face for their issue, and he had the office right next to him. He says, hey, Pat, you and John want to do this? I said, okay. It didn't even dawn on me that he could have picked another couple. He could have picked a heterosexual couple. He could have picked an individual. But he just leaned over and said, hey, you and John want to do this? They need somebody for the cover of this magazine. Oh, okay. But we never got any derogatory feedback on that. Never got any hate mail. Toby Jenkins: So you may not have gotten hate mail, and you may not have gotten overt rejection or harassment. As a couple, have there been times when you've known if you were welcome in the room or not? I mean, you talked earlier about the crews. Yeah, the Malcolm Baldrige. Pat Hobbs: Well, the Baldrige Award thing, where the principal moved his chair two feet away. You know, at this day and age, not so much anymore. John Orsulak: Yeah, I just say this is my husband, and like it or love it. Pat Hobbs: You know, honest to God, since the legalization back in 2014, that's what we do. We introduce each other as our husbands, not partner, not roommate. I mean, and it's more accepted, isn’t it? John Orsulak: I just say it. Toby Jenkins: Well, that leads us right into kind of the closing of our time together. What would you say, I mean, our situations, we're seeing so much pushback against our community, on public policy. Today, the lead story in Tulsa, Oklahoma and the Tulsa World was state agencies, not state-funded organizations or agencies or colleges or universities or schools, could not acknowledge Pride Month. They couldn't fly a rainbow flag. Pat Hobbs: Well, let me tell you a story about what happened over at the Garden Center a couple of years ago. Dennis, thank you for the flag. May I tell this story? So, you supplied... 25 �Dennis Neill: Tulsa Progress Flags. Pat Hobbs: Tulsa Progress Flags. And it was flown, the Garden Center manager, Lee, flew it over the teaching garden and was instructed that the only time that the flag could be flown was during the month of June and immediately take it down the first of July. You know, half the staff at the garden center at the time identifies as LGBTQ+. And it was a city, it's city property. Take the flag down. Just made me so mad. You know, and this whole thing with the flag, it doesn't make any sense. What have we done differently over the last 20 years? Why now? Why are you offended? Toby Jenkins: So what would be your messages to those who come after us or for young activists? I always like to say it this way. In a hundred years, archaeologists are going to dig through the ruins of this property and they're going to discover that there was a day in America where there had to be LGBT centers and they uncover our archives. So the archaeologists, when they uncover your interview, what would be your message for the future, for those who come after us, and for young LGBTQ people and who identify as queer today? John Orsulak: Gosh, it's changed so much over the my lifetime. I have a former student of mine, fifth grade. I remember seeing him doing pirouettes on the playground. And I pegged him. At least I thought I did. And then later on, sure enough, and he's very now very active in the arts community here in Tulsa, has a husband, supportive family, and it's just like, oh, you know, it's become normal, much more normalized, and I hope it continues to be normalized where we don't have to live with any fear. That it's just, we're kind of at the point where it's like, I don't give a damn anymore. You know, you live with who I am, how I am, and if you don't like it, then go away or do whatever and I'll survive. I'm a worker bee, so it doesn't bother me. Pat Hobbs: Well, I've got my political comments, some that need to remain. I need to sit on it for a minute, but these bigots out there, these right-wing bigots, why now? What have we done? Like I said, what have we done? You still get your hair cut by a gay barber, okay? You still buy flowers at a gay florist, don't you? I don't understand why this movement is... And the one thing that scares me, though, is that they call them immigration detention centers for all these warehouses, that these empty warehouses, they're going to put all these immigration…I don't think it's going to be mostly for immigrants. I think it's going to turn out they're going to pick and choose what part of society goes in these places. That's just my opinion. I don't think there's enough immigrants to fill up all these warehouses. Toby Jenkins: Any other things for the future or for those who come after us or for today, for people who are wanting to know what to do. John Orsulak: And use your resources, the Equality Center. I hope it survives and continues to flourish because you need this. You need support. You know, if you're not alone, they need to know that. Pat Hobbs: The one thing I have learned from the Rainbow Room and the people who come here is that we are designated here at OkEq as a safe place. Always have been. And I guess it was during Pride or maybe that first Pride piano thing that we 26 �had a couple of years ago. But I had a lady come up to me and say, I feel safe here. Yes, that's why we need this place. Toby Jenkins: Well, it is March 19th, 2026 and today our interviewees, our special guests have been John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs. And they've been together 36 years. And joining us have been Dennis Neill, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, and Amanda Thompson, the archivist. And this is Toby Jenkins. Thank you so much for tuning in. 27 � https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/0655db9527d9c965e3ae77cf9ab9ecd7.mp4 5fe3a81c4475dc5db209b6fe8bc46c29 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Interview Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John Orsulak, Pat Hobbs, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 19, 2026 Subject The topic of the resource John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Oral History Interview from March 19, 2026 Description An account of the resource This interview with Pat Hobbs and John Orsulak explores their 36-year relationship following a chance encounter at a church, their careers and longtime involvement in theater and music. They also highlight their activism within the LGBTQ community in Tulsa and the vision they had and implemented to bring the Lynn Riggs Theatre at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center to life. They share personal stories, including the passing of Pat’s brother to AIDS, insights on community involvement, and their vision for a more inclusive future. 2026 AIDS AIDS/HIV Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill HIV/AIDs interview John Orsulak Lynn Riggs Theatre OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Pat Hobbs Toby Jenkins transcript video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/006a3e291caac95522a9871ee0e6dd1d.mp4 dda5c960f90098b8d9d20d55850689d7 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/887e542a2807ed6edc3a72e264cd9f06.pdf e9d6b264782cd101eac600767ffbce33 PDF Text Text 1 Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Jose Vega Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: May 22, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, May 25, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org �2 About Jose Vega: Summary Join us for an inspiring interview with José Emanuel Vega, a dedicated LGBTQ+ advocate from Tulsa, Oklahoma, now making a difference in California. He shares his powerful story of overcoming trauma, fighting for LGBTQ+ rights, serving as Program Director and Deputy Director at Oklahomans for Equality, and building community through advocacy, education, and leadership. Keywords LGBTQ+ advocacy, Tulsa, California, trauma, resilience, community building, public health, HIV prevention, leadership, immigration Key Topics José Vega's childhood and family background Experiences with child abuse and conversion therapy Journey of coming out and self-acceptance Advocacy for LGBTQ+ rights and immigrant communities Impact of hate crimes and community response Leadership in Oklahoma and California Innovative programs like rainbow crosswalks and chapters International perspectives on LGBTQ+ issues and human rights Future goals for community empowerment and education �3 Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 02:21 Childhood and Family Dynamics 12:23 Experiences with Conversion Therapy 21:36 Struggles with Identity and Survival 30:06 Education and Career Path 34:39 Professional Growth and Advocacy 38:00 Finding Stability and Community 44:52 Confronting Discrimination in Safe Spaces 50:52 Advocacy and Leadership in the LGBTQ Community 57:56 Reconnecting with Family and Personal Growth 01:05:05 Navigating Hate Crimes and Advocacy for Protection 01:09:10 Handling Hate Crimes and Community Safety 01:11:58 Advocacy and Activism in the LGBTQ Community 01:15:07 Building Support Networks and Chapters 01:20:07 International Perspectives on LGBTQ Rights 01:25:07 Navigating Divisive Issues in the LGBTQ Community 01:29:54 Career Growth and Community Impact 01:34:54 Education and Public Health Initiatives 01:40:03 Inspiring Future Generations of Activists Jose Vega Oral History Interview May 22, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Good afternoon, and welcome to Oklahomans for Equality. We're at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in Tulsa, Oklahoma. It is May 22nd, 2026. It's a beautiful Friday afternoon. We're here in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library with a history project interview. And today, our special guest, we all call him Jose, but will you give us your name the way you say it? Jose Vega: Jose Emanuel Vega. Toby Jenkins: Very good. And Jose, where do you live presently? Jose Vega: Yeah, I currently live in Sacramento, California. �4 Toby Jenkins: Where were you born and where are you from? Jose Vega: Yeah, I'm originally from Tulsa, Oklahoma. Family is from Mexico, Michoacan, Uruapan. And I was born and raised in Oklahoma. And I moved away from Oklahoma in October 2020. But it'll always be home for me. Toby Jenkins: And so you moved, where were you working when you left Tulsa? Jose Vega: I was at Oklahomans for Equality, and then I had the opportunity to move to Sacramento, California for the Sacramento LGBT Community Center there and work as Director of Health Services and Programs. And it was in the middle of COVID. Toby Jenkins: Right, and you were the Deputy Director here at the Oklahomans for Equality. Jose Vega: Yes. Toby Jenkins: All right, so we're gonna have what we call, you've heard of bisexual interviews. This is a bicoastal interview. We're gonna have a West Coast gay who comes back to the heartland, and we're gonna hear Jose's story. So today, our interviewing panel is Dennis Neill, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, Mary Bishop-Baldwin, who works here with the archives, and also was the plaintiff in the marriage equality lawsuit that secured marriage for Oklahoma and a big section of the country, and I'm Toby Jenkins. Toby Jenkins: Jose, let's start with, like we do all of our interview people, I’d like to hear a little bit about, your childhood and kind of your experience. You were here in Oklahoma. Tell us a little bit about your family. Jose Vega: Yeah, I was born in 1992 and raised here, and my family, I'm a son of immigrants. My family is from Mexico. All my family lives here. They're either here in Tulsa or in Mexico. You know, the only two. I am the oldest of my dad's children. He remarried six times, so he's on his sixth marriage now, but growing up was only me and him with one woman and her kids, and then a revolving door and so forth, but it's always been me and him. Childhood hasn't been… I had a rough childhood with growing up with him in that aspect. I Can share, you know, my coming out story. So with that, now what I know now with my dad, I know that he gave what he could give to the best of his ability, but during that time, that's not how I saw it or how it was lived with. So, you know, my story, I came out at 15. I was a sophomore in high school, but before that, I had a lot of child abuse. My dad would come home and I knew that, now what I know is that he had bipolarism and he would beat me, lock me up in my room. Sometimes I'd have to skip meals. I would show up to school with bruises and they'd ask, what happened here? And I would always lie to protect my dad and my family. But it wasn'tToby Jenkins: Because you had your extended family. You had aunts and uncles and cousins and then you still were pretty connected to your grandmother, and she was still in Mexico at the time, right? Jose Vega: Yeah, yeah. As all migrant families, we're all very interconnected. �5 Toby Jenkins: No connection to your biological mother. Jose Vega: Not during that time. Not before the age of 18. Toby Jenkins: Ok. You were experiencing, he would be very violent and abusive, and you felt that you had to protect him and your family. Why did you feel like you needed to protect them rather than protect yourself? Just curious about that. Jose Vega: Well, what happens a lot in child abuse is that there will be a parent or family member say, don't say anything because it will break the family apart, and you don't want to risk that. And so that's what happened to me. I had aunts, stepmoms tell me, don't tell anybody, tell them that you fell down, that you hurt yourself, and that's kind of what I did, ended up doing. But it wasn't until I was 14 when I've had enough. And there was suicide in my history, and at that age of 14 is when I was going through physical abuse, mental abuse, and verbal abuse, and it was every day waking up that you're a piece of shit, you're a son of a bitch, worthless, and so you tell that to a child so much that they end up believing it. And at 14, that's what I believed. My own father doesn't love me or thinks of me this way, then I must be this. And so that's the first attempt. And I felt very depressed, and I remember his words telling me, you didn't take enough [pills]. And from that moment on, that's kind of where I took empowerment of who I was and kind of protect myself. But even before that, I asked myself, they knew I was gay for some reason, because growing up too, I would have my hand, little cap [limp] like this, you know, fallen, or my hand on my hip, and I would get beaten for having these mannerisms. And so at the age of 14 when that happened, it was the last beating I had. And I was about to turn 15, and he came in and he striked me, and I stood up for myself and I said, you know what? I can't do this anymore. You're not going to do this to me. And you talk about you'd rather have a thief as a son, or a rapist as a son, or somebody else as a son, or a drug dealer as a son, but not a homosexual or a faggot. And I said, I'm a faggot. And crying, I said that. And so he was like, get your stuff and get out. There will never be a faggot in my household. And at 15, I grabbed everything I could and I started packing my bags. And then he comes into the room and says, what are you doing? I was like, I'm packing my bags like you asked me to. He's like, but I paid for all of this. And so I left with the clothes on my back and a blanket. And I managed. I couch surfed through high school. I slept in the ditch next to Webster High School. That's kind of where I graduated. Slept in a ditch at a park. Couch surfed with friends; with anybody I could. I would shower in the gym at school. But I was a happy child because I wasn't getting beaten. I wasn't getting the abuse. Toby Jenkins: You didn't go to the school counselor and tell her you were homeless? You didn't go to foster agencies? Jose Vega: No, and the reason why is because at school, I became the student who would put newcomers together. And I loved it. I loved helping a new student come in, learn the system. I've always had that passion of helping folks. But I ended up �6 partnering and helping foster kids, foster youth. And they would share some of the stories that they were dealing with. And I knew that if I was caught, I would have to end up in a foster shelter or some system where I would be limited and not have the opportunities that I'm having now, that I was having at that time. I worked at Reasor’s [grocery store] as a sacker at the age of 15 after school. Once I turned 16, it became full-time. But I was very appreciative because it gave me money to pay for a cell phone, so I would go to the admissions office at school and I said, here's my new parent's number. And anytime they needed a parent's signature, I forged the signature. Anytime they would call, I would pretend to be the translator. Usually a lot of Latinos, youth, are the translators. We, a lot of youth, end up translating medical paperwork or school paperwork or even legal paperwork for their parents because they don't understand the language. I would translate, yeah, the teacher's saying this, and I would just make my own decisions. And I never got caught, and I was really good at school. I do appreciate Mary Waters, who was my high school counselor. She did look out for me. She helped me with getting enrolled with scholarships, the universities, and prepared me. And then I had a lesbian gym teacher. She would see that me walking down very early, like at six in the morning, walking down to the school. And she knew because she would leave the gym door open and the shower room open where we just knew… We looked at each other, and we just knew what was going on. But nobody ever said anything or reported anything. Also food-wise, too, they would help me cover for food and meals. But also during that time, as a 15, 16-year-old, working at Reasor’s and putting myself through high school, sex work was a thing too, that sometimes I needed to do to find a ride. To help me with wash clothes, laundry. And so that's part of my history too, where I needed to do certain things to get by. Toby Jenkins: I know at one point you talked about there was a period where your family decided they were going to send you to Mexico. One, so you could learn to speak Spanish the proper way, but also interact with your family, but to get you more connected to the church. So can you share with us a little bit about what that was like going through what we call today conversion therapy. I think it was called reparative therapy at that time. Can you tell us a little bit about that experience? Jose Vega: So yeah, my aunt said that she could heal me, and there could be a cure for this. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: At what age? Jose Vega: I was 14 to 15. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Had you already left home? Jose Vega: No, this was before leaving home. So there was already this talk among my family that I was gay. There was already this talk, and they're like, well, we keep hearing his dad keep saying faggots this, faggot that, and that he doesn't want this at home and so forth. So maybe we can heal Joselito, that's what we call me. And so during the abuse too, it was a great getaway. �7 I can get away from my father from the abuse. So yeah. So I did a year in Mexico, my freshman year of high school, and they sent me to conversion therapy at a church, and it started with droplets and people just praying on me at church and telling me, you're going to go to hell if you don't change and so forth. But these droplets were black oil, black oil that I would take after every meal as soon as I woke up. If I had impure thoughts, I'd ingest, and every time I would throw up after a meal because it was covered with this coat… it was just black ooze. And the priest would say that that is the demon coming out of you. And I lost a lot of weight. And then I would remember to read from this little yellow book two hours before school. So I had to wake up early and be on my knees, not trying to lean, bend. So just be on your hard knees for two hours, praying from this little yellow book before and after. So early in the morning and then before bed. And then also a VHS tape of a priest that died and that God took him through hell and showed him how every sin is paid. So if you're a thief, this is how your sin is paid in hell. If you're a rapist or if you're a, whatever it may be every sin, but the one that I, that is embedded in my mind and I can see it so clearly because I would watch it for a whole year- was how homosexuality is paid and the priest can... I can describe it. It's not graphic, well, a little bit, but the priest would say: a hot metal rod is inserted through the anus, all through the body and out the throat at multiple times. And that's how homosexuality was paid in hell. And so having to watch this every day, read from this little yellow book and then be coated with this black oil stuff that I would ingest, I lost a lot of weight. I didn't even recognize myself. I was failing at school and then I was like: you know, I can't do this. I did it for nine months and I said, no, I can't do this anymore. And so that's kind of where I went back home and that's kind of when I stood up for myself with my dad. I said: you know what, I'd rather be gay, be where, I'd rather be homeless, gay and alone than having to endure this, this therapy or cure aspect, or even any abuse in the household. So I left. Toby Jenkins: Now, during this time when you're basically you don't have a permanent physical address, were you still in contact with your father and your aunts and uncles and cousins? Jose Vega: No, so all my family turned their back on me because I didn't finish the conversion therapy and I I wanted to… I just left home. So everybody turned their back on me. 15, 16 and um, nobody, nobody would reach out to me or talk to me. They knew where I was. They sometimes would see me at the grocery store or even see me walking on the street to my next destination. Toby Jenkins: Yet you made some friends, and those two are still your lifelong friends. Jose Vega: Yes, that's Martha and Jordan. Martha I met in high school and she knew so she was very, very sweet to me. She would bring me food from her home, just sometimes help cover lunch. And that's where it hurts, because when I needed somebody the most, she was there. She's my best friend. She's like the sister I never had. �8 Toby Jenkins: With all of that, dropped out of school and became a drug addict, right? Jose Vega: No. Toby Jenkins: What did you do? What happened? You graduated, didn’t you? Jose Vega: I graduated, I did so. So sophomore year of high school, I finished the year, but it became hard. It was hard because I was like I either need to quit school and get to work or find another alternative because I can't do this. I couldn't do this another two years of figuring it out how I was gonna get by. And I talked to Mary Waters, my high school counselor, and I said: I, I either need my GED, or graduate early or something. And so we looked at my grades and everything. She's like, Jose, you have great grades, you could jump a year. You could pay for summer school and do your junior year for that summer and then go straight into senior [year]. And I did. I did English Three that summer and came back to school as a senior. So I skipped my junior year. This is Pebbles [dog], she is three years old. Mary Waters helped me jump from sophomore straight to senior and I graduated early. And so I said, okay, I can do this one more year. So with that, one year is where I was able to move up along workwise at Reasor’s and stay in school and graduate early and then win scholarships. And then I moved to TCC, Tulsa Community College, where I went straight after high school. Mary Bishop – Baldwin: And did you get an apartment or were you still couch-surfing? Jose Vega: I was still couch-surfing during high school, but I was able to find something more stable and solid. I jumped a little bit ahead. There was a time where my aunt during that time- also senior high school- where she said: oh, Jose, God has touched my soul. And because she saw me as I was walking down the street, she says: God has touched my soul and I'm here to help you. I'm like, okay, yeah, I'll take any help. She's like: you can live with me, you can sleep on my couch, you'll have a shelter. And it was family. So I was like, oh, probably they finally came around. But she was charging me $300 to sleep on the couch, charging me for everything, well, you're using water, you're using gas and I have to pick you up and do this and do that. It started to get expensive and as a high school senior, I'm like I can't afford this. I went back to couch surfing with friends, where I didn't have to pay anything, and start saving up. And then finally I was able to save up to get A little $1,000 car and that's kind of where I started my TCC journey. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: And did you sleep in your car? Jose Vega: There was a time where I slept in my car here and there, but I'm very grateful because Martha and my best friend, but I had met a boyfriend by that time, so I wasn't doing any more sex work or trying to get by. I met a boyfriend and we both moved in together and we had dual income and we were able to grow together. I was 18. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Can we go back to when you were in Mexico in the conversion therapy program? What were your personal beliefs about yourself at that time? Did you believe that homosexuality was a sin, or did you feel like you knew within yourself that what you were and what you were doing was not wrong? �9 Jose Vega: No, I did grow up thinking that it was something wrong. My family- but my family's very- was very religious, very Catholic, and I was so embedded in the Catholic Church that they did tell us homosexuality was a sin. And so very young, I knew that I was different. I knew that why do I find other boys attractive, or why do I find this taller man attractive? And I didn't say anything, but I would hear. And then also a lot of media. There was this talk show, a Mexican Latina talk show, where there was a transgender woman or somebody who dressed up as a woman, man who dressed up as a woman who came to the talk show, kind of like it was a Mexican Oprah. Her name was Christina, so she was a Mexican Oprah. And in this talk show I was probably 10 or 11 and I saw that they were talking about homosexuality and gay men and they felt so to me. I was like that's how I feel I can see that. But I knew it was a…this mentality of it's a sin, it's a sin, you're gonna go to hell was very embedded in me and that's why I hated myself. I was like no, I gotta do this conversion therapy. Probably my dad will love me this time. Probably my family will accept me. I don't want to be different. So my mentality there was that. But it wasn't till I was 14 and going on 15, where I tried to commit suicide and my dad said you didn't take enough. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Didn't take enough what? Jose Vega: Didn’t take enough medication. It was pills. I tried to do it by oral, but medication went to the hospital, my stomach got pumped, I had to eat charcoal. But when he said you didn't take enough, it was like a click, just something like a click where I'm like: why am I living for you or for anybody? No, I'm doing me, and very young, and I know that a lot like this is why I advocate for teen suicide and all and care, because- because not a lot of teens make it, or- and I don't know where I got the strength from- I know the strength that's saying I'm not doing it for anybody, but for myself, and that's why I broke the chains. I said I'm gay and you don't like it, and I hit the street afterwards. Toby Jenkins: So the sense of survival your own. You took it within yourself to take to survive. But you had to do it at a much younger age, while you're still a child yourself. You couldn't depend on any of them. So you decided, I'm gonna survive on my own terms, without any of your help. And if I lose you, I'll lose you. Jose Vega: And that's what happened. Toby Jenkins: And so you graduate from high school early, go to college. Were you in the Achieves program? Jose Vega: I was, Tulsa Achieves. Toby Jenkins: Now I remember a portion of your story, there was a time when y'all visited City Hall, you were a part of a youth program, which you later implemented under Mayor Bynum. Was that during high school or college? Jose Vega: That was during high school. My senior year of high school is when I applied for the Tulsa Mayor Youth Council. And it was run by Nick Doctor and his wife, what's her name again? Forgot her name, I'm blanking [Mana Tahaie]. �10 Nick Doctor started the program, the Tulsa Mayor's Youth Council, where youth would get involved with local politics and advocate. And I shared, like, we need to do something for our youth, our LGBTQ youth, and advocate more rights. And that's kind of where my passion for advocacy started growing. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: What year would this have been? Jose Vega: This was 2009 to 2010. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, but your earlier experience, you had been exposed to something like this that you… Jose Vega: Yeah, there is a footage, there's several interviews. In 2006, I was interviewed because there was a Latino career fair and advocacy to bring Latino men up into the workforce. So, every aspect of it, I enjoyed. Every aspect of supporting those who needed their voice heard, even in high school. Dennis Neill: Jose, during this period of time, until you finished TCC, did you experience bullying because of either your sexual orientation or your racial identity? Jose Vega: Oh, yes. Dennis Neill: And could you probe that a little bit more? And how the adults and other peers reacted to that? Did they help you address some of those issues? And can you explain a little bit about that background? Jose Vega: Yes, before I was 14, there was bullying for my skin tone. I would be called beaner, wetback, go back to where you're from, and also kind of, like, fruity. And I remember some parents at school saying, it looks like that kid has sugar in his tank. And I didn't understand it until now, but there was. But it wasn't until age 14, in high school, 15, 16, I would still get bullied, but you couldn't do anything to me. I didn't care about it. And I didn't care about it because if I didn't care about it from my own family or father, you're just a kid in school. And so that empowered me. Dennis Neill: How did the school authorities react to these issues that you were facing? Jose Vega: My high school counselor for the bullying aspect, she stood up for me. And I just…my friends, too. I remember Martha, my best friend, she stood up to these bullies, too. She was a tough cookie, and she would sometimes fight my fights. So she was, and what I love about it, because she was one year behind me. We would have graduated the same year, but because I jumped a year, her senior year, and I was in college, she started the first GSA at Webster High School. And she said, I did it for you because there's more gays…there's more LGBT people at school. And now that you're gone, I don't know who to protect. And that's who I'm gonna protect. She became…she was an ally. But during that time of high school to college, yeah, there was bullying, there was wordage, but you couldn't do anything to me because if I didn't accept it from my dad, I couldn't do anything. Dennis Neill: Did you experience that, even at TCC �11 Jose Vega: ? No, not at TCC. I didn't experience that at TCC. But workwise or anywhere else, growing up, yeah, you couldn't say anything to me. I didn't care for it. Toby Jenkins: But you did hear it. Jose Vega: I did hear it, but it didn't, it was likeToby Jenkins: So you're at TCC, you're on your own, you are in a relationship. Was it this time that you chose your career path? I mean, you had… tell us kind of some of the different places you worked, because I know you worked in, you worked in multiple places, agencies. Was it there that you developed your passion for public health? Jose Vega: Yes, so it was there. So I chose the dental hygienist program, but then I moved it to health administration, or just medical terminology, because I wanted to help our community and learn more about health care. My first official health care job was Saint Francis Hospital as a patient transporter on the weekends, and I would move patients from the emergency room all the way up to their room or from the room to the x-ray room and so forth. That was every weekend and it wasn't until I was translating, because there wasn't a translating system or somebody wasn't there to translate from English to Spanish. And I was translating for this patient and this doctor, this Orthodontist, sees me translating. And then he offers me a job and he's like: well, why don't you come work for me? I was like, well, I'm still in school and I enjoy doing this. And he's like: well, you'll work on the weekdays when you don't have school. And so, yeah, I worked for him for a while. He paid for me to go to get my dental x-ray certification, my dental sterilization equipment certification. And this was me during TCC, going through the dental hygienist. But then, after that role- that's when I switched work, switched to something else, to health care, but that was that's what I did for a while and then after that, and what made me do the switch was when I worked for Nova Health, which was the abortion clinic here in Oklahoma, and at that time it helped me understand more for women, understand more for also part of my religion, where we know that, where they were, in my Catholicism, where they say abortion is evil, is bad and so forth. But working there helped me understand what women go through, from assaults to their body, their choice. Everybody has a reason why they do what they want to do, and it helped me understand that these women need help as well, and I worked there for about 9 to 10 months. I learned a lot from that experience. I'm very proud to have helped those women who would come from the street to the clinic while protesters would chase them, show images, and I would go out there with umbrellas, with coats, and just give them access to health care when they needed it the most. I did that for a while too. Toby Jenkins: So TCC, living on your own with your partner or your boyfriend, did you complete your program at TCC? Jose Vega: I did, yes. It was medical terminology and a minor study like medical science, and then I went to University of Phoenix and finished it online because work was starting to pick up and I was like I need to switch online. I can't take off work or do it �12 in person and so forth. So I finished my degree online on health administration and hospital management and that's kind of where my health aspects started. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Is that your bachelor's degree? Jose Vega: That is my bachelor's- health administration, hospital management- and that's because I was a record technician and an administrative medical administrator at the Nova Health where I'm helping these women self-pay for these protocols and workflows and they didn't have an electronic medical record so logging all of their files. Toby Jenkins: Did you do any translation work? Jose Vega: I did do translation work too. I was able to do medical translation documentations- medical and legal. I did all of that and that's kind of where my career, through health aspects, started and that's why I graduated with that degree. Toby Jenkins: Somewhere in there you ended up the Tulsa World. So school, and you were still with this partner… Jose Vega: Yes. And then the ten months at the Nova Health Center is when the Tulsa World opportunity came. And well, hold on very shortly- sorry, backtrack- I worked at a medical imaging center- sorry, from Nova Health Center- for 10 months, then I worked at a medical imaging center and at this medical imaging center- it was a faith-based medical imaging center and I was let go after six or seven months, when they found out I was gay and they just said, Jose, we just we terminated, we just don't accept your lifestyle. And I was doing so good, I was translating their medical paperwork. I was translating their…I was helping with their records to electronic and I helped so many Spanish-speaking patients. I managed their schedule, but just because of who I was, I was let go and I was never back in the closet until that moment. And I remember going to the Tulsa World. I remember going to several interviews and they all asked what happened at your last job and I just said, just decided to move, just decided to do another role or something. It put me back in the closet. It wasn't till I was at the Tulsa World and I was interviewed by Susan Ellerbach and she asked me the same question that every interview asked me: what happened at your last job? And I broke down and I cried and I said I was let go for being gay and I've been holding this inside so much and in every interview they've asked me I've said for personal issues or something else, but I don't want to be hiding anymore. And she hugged me and she offered me the job right then and there, and that gave me the strength again. That gave me the I don't need to be, I don't need to be sure who I am anymore. I was very happy again because, she gave me the job. I was the newsroom assistant, I was her executive assistant and I enjoyed every moment and I helped with obituaries. I helped Mary and Sharon, everybody there at the Tulsa World. I loved it because it felt like I was working with, I was working for like…I think at that time the movie Devil Wears Prada had come out and I feel like Andy, you know just oh, yes, Susan, I'm ready to go, Susan, here's your coffee and so forth, but I loved it, but she was nothing like that, okay, �13 nothing. That's later on when we move into the center. But I, that was one of my favorite roles, yes. Dennis Neill: How long were you in that position? Jose Vega: Oh, that was about a year, some change. But during that time, I was the happiest I could have been because I was finally having a good, stable job. I wasn't ashamed of myself anymore. I had a boyfriend and had friends. But I wasn't active out in community. Toby Jenkins: Can I just ask you, were you having any kind of communication with family, your father? Jose Vega: No, I was still alone. Dennis Neill: When was it that you're at the Tulsa world. Jose Vega: 2012, 2013. Toby Jenkins: You are at the Tulsa World. And when you say you weren't active in the community, you mean the LGBTQ community. Jose Vega: Yeah, the LGBTQ community. And I say that because we would go to this club. We go to the clubs and you know, I was a young man… Toby Jenkins: Most of your friends and the community, the gay people, it was other Latino, Hispanic, immigrant community. Jose Vega: Yes. I had met in the Latino community, a lot of, a lot of LGBTQ, Latino, undocumented individuals- and that's who my community was- and a lot of Dreamers in Tulsa, and so I had my little posse and we would go out to the bars and clubs and I remember going out. They showed that you know, they didn't have documentationOklahoma documentation- but they had their IDs and passports from their country. We ended up going to a bar named Renegades. That's where we enjoyed going. And so we go, we show up, I give my Oklahoma ID and they give their passports and we're at the door and then they tell them: well, where's your Oklahoma ID? I'm like, what are you asking? This is an ID that tells you their age. And they're like: no, we need to show proof of their citizenship. And that's got started feeling like what are you doing? This is a real proof of ID. And they said: nope, we can't accept this and if you don't leave, we're gonna call immigration. That destroyed my friends. That happens a lot in the Latino community and document community is that they don't any kind of discrimination like that. They're just like: okay, okay, we're sorry, and they just leave. Toby Jenkins: It never occurs to them it might be illegal. Jose Vega: Exactly, and- and it still happens to today. �14 Toby Jenkins: Their first thought is: not my rights, treat me with respect, they just assume… Jose Vega: But they also don't want to cause trouble and they're afraid of immigration. Many of these people are running away from countries or neighborhoods or areas in their town or city where, for them, being gay, it's a death sentence, so they don't want to ruffle feathers. And I see that in my family too. When my stepmom or my dad or anybody was discriminated, they just bowed their heads and leave and just never came again. But I was so tired. I grew up like that and I was like how can a marginalized community marginalize another community. Toby Jenkins: And how can the gay community marginalize immigrants, undocumented individuals? Jose Vega: I thought this was a safe space, a safe place for all. This is why we have these safe places and especially like they're LGBTQ too. Doesn't matter where you're from or your skin color or your language, you're LGBT. I was very upset. I was very, very upset. This happened on a Friday night. I was very upset and I remember calling the LGBT Center the next day and leaving a voicemail and saying: how could somebody do this? Why would this happen? There needs to be some education on what IDs, identifications are acceptable, but also, how can this, how can this happen? And my friends were like Jose, just leave it, leave it. I'm like no, no, because I'm not that kind of person to leave anything like that. I didn't leave it when I was 15, 14 and Susan empowered me. So that happened during the weekend. I submitted a report, an incident report at the LGBT Center in Tulsa and through the helpline. And then that Monday I came in and I cried to Susan, I told her what happened that weekend and she was frustrated. She's like: how dare they do that to you too? She said, if they don't apologize by the end of the week, we'll run a front-page story on the Sunday newspaper. And I called the center and I said, hey, I really want to work this out. There needs to be an apology and there needs to be some education. But also I don't want any bad news for our community, but they need to apologize and they need to apologize to my community. So, Toby- and at that time it was Stewart the lawyer, Stewart Ashworth, and I think you both helped a lot in that aspect of legal and so forth- and so you, Toby, talked to the Renegade team and it wasn't till Thursday. They come around and we're like: okay, okay, we'll set up a meeting. And so we did. We met at Renegades. My friends didn't want to join. They're like no, no, we're just, we're never touching a foot there again. We're too scared. And I was like, okay, then I'm gonna represent you guys and I'm gonna represent all of those that came before us, because if they did it to you, they probably did it to other people and I don't want that ever to happen again. So I show up with Toby and this is kind of, I think, one of the first time we met, and it was a two-hour back and forth of no, we would never do that. We did not do that, this and �15 that. And we were very calm and collected and after two hours I just said: you know what? That's fine, I'm done here. You know what you did. Just know that you did it to the wrong person this time. And I'm going to be more active, and I'm going to create a committee and educate the bars and make sure that all of these LGBTQ places are safe places for everyone. And they ended up apologizing. And that Friday I came in, Susan, they apologized. Everything's good. And that's when I started getting more involved with the LGBT Center. Toby Jenkins: I think it was during that time, just while we're here, do you feel like racism and prejudice against immigrant communities is it an issue in the LGBTQ community? Jose Vega: I believe there may be some, but everybody has a personal experience. And as much as we've seen, I can speak on my behalf. Have I seen it? Yes. Have I spoken out towards it? Yes. Is there something we can all do about it? Yes. Because the LGBT community is so inclusive and intertwined that as long as you fall under the umbrella, you're part of the community, regardless of what your skin tone documentation is. But there is, so there's still a lot of education needed to happen. But why have inner fighting? Why not stick together instead? And that's kind of what stems my work with the LGBT Center and our DACA recipients. So in 2015... Toby Jenkins: So let's make sure of your... So you went through this experience and you said you wanted to get more involved. So we ask you to serve on our board of advisors and specifically create programming for immigrants, community, and Hispanic and Latino, Latinx individuals, basically becoming the liaison on this particular portion of our community to make the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center more inclusive and its programming more targeted towards our immigrant community and for specifically Hispanic Latino people. You had been asked to serve on that advisory committee. So that's kind of... You were on the board of advisors, so there we went on with that. And so you go ahead. Jose Vega: Yeah, so on the advisory board, I represented our Latino community, was more active. I was still involved with DACA students from TCC because during my time at TCC, I was involved with them. Even though I'm not a DACA recipient, I saw the need that they had. Toby Jenkins: And for our viewers, what does DACA stand for? Jose Vega: Dream Act... Deferred Action [Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals]. I just know that the group was called D-A-O-K, Deferred Action Oklahoma Group. This was for individuals, some immigrants who were raised here, not born here, but were raised here. They're practically citizens, right? They're paying taxes. They're working. They're trying to live the American dream. And so they were at TCC. I was very involved with them, helping them, supporting them. During my time here, I said, well, why don't we collaborate and bring them in? And I had the opportunity to bring their support group here and do some intertwined intersectionality education. The LGBT community to learn about Latino cultural, the homophobia within the Latino and the LGBT community to learn more about the Latino �16 backgrounds and support of their communities. So that's the first few active things I did. And then it wasn't until the opportunity to work... Toby Jenkins: Were you still with your boyfriend at this time? Jose Vega: Yes. Toby Jenkins: What was the next step? You're still working at the Tulsa World. Jose Vega: Yes. And then I had the opportunity to apply for a role, program coordinator at the LGBT Center. And it was a hard day because I came to Susan. I said, Susan, I'm thinking about applying. And she's like, Jose, do you really want to go? I was like, it's not that I want to go, but I really feel a calling. And she said, okay, that's a great place. So I went from the Tulsa World to the LGBT Center. But Susan was always supportive throughout that as well. I started as a program coordinator. And that's kind of where Toby and I were two partners in crime. Batman and Robin. Because he really took me under his wing. Gave me the professionalism, the guidance. He saw the Latino passion and fire that I had. Because I wanted to help those LGBTQ youth, LGBTQ Latinos, everybody under the LGBTQ umbrella, and to feel welcome. Because I saw the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center as the home that I didn't grow up or have. Or the home that I dreamed of. Because this center does mean a lot to me. So that's kind of where our role started here. And then we did a lot of programming. Dennis Neill: Jose, do you remember what year and how old you were when you joined? Jose Vega: 2015. Dennis Neill: And how old would you have been? Jose Vega: 22, 23. Dennis Neill: When you joined, how many staff were working here at the center? Jose Vega: Probably like a handful. Just three. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And I think it was him and we had one other and a janitor and me. Jose Vega: Very small. We managed a lot of programs. Toby Jenkins: The center was packed. It was. Jose Vega: We kept it packed. Toby Jenkins: So you came on board and I remember you had a very good aptitude for public policy and engagement of our elected officials. You just naturally took to that. I know that's when you reconvened the Mayor's Youth Commission. Jose Vega: Yeah. I love that you brought that point because the Mayor's Youth Council really prepared me to talk about local politics and city officials. Every step of my world and life has got me to the point where I am and prepared me for the next. During that time, working on programming, developing new programming and events, �17 collaborating, helping take over the Equality Business Alliance. I loved the Mayor's Youth Council so much and the impact that it had on me that I was like, how can I help our youth? How can we grow the next generation as well? So I brought back the Mayor's Youth Council and we had our first cohort and it was great. We did get a lot of GSA leaders from it. That's another part that I like. Toby Jenkins: Explain what GSA is. Jose Vega: Gay Straight Alliance. A lot of those students from that first cohort developed GSAs at their school. And then that's kind of where we also collaborated and partnered with the Tulsa Youth Services and they started developing GSAs and so forth. Toby Jenkins: Campfire. Jose Vega: Campfire. The Mayor's Youth Council was really impactful. We did that, I did that every year from 2015 all the way to my last year in 2020. Toby Jenkins: So you also, two things, I've got to make sure we talk about this. Hispanic Affairs Commission, you were appointed… Jose Vega: Yeah, I joined the Hispanic Affairs Commission. I was the youngest to be appointed, and I was there for about a year and a half, and then I became the chair, also the youngest to run the Hispanic Affairs Commission for the city of Tulsa. And I worked in collaboration with city officials, our Latino partners, our Hispanic businesses, and we really helped move forward a lot of issues that our Latino youth and families go through from school to neighborhood aspects. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you were appointed to the Mayor's Hispanic Affairs Commission. You started the Mayor's, and you were working with our allies that we work with here at the Equality Center. All of a sudden, I noticed you began to get some attention, and we began to convene and host Dream Act, would meet here. Sometimes we'd have 60 or 70 Hispanic young adults in the building. You were working with the Tulsa Metro Chamber on Mosaic and the Equality Business Alliance. Somewhere in there, some people began to notice that you could get the job done, and they started recognizing you, and you began to get some awards. Yeah. And the next thing I know, your dad is by your side, and your family's back in your life. Where in that time did you reconnect with your family? Jose Vega: It was at the age of 24 when my family came back around, and they had seen all these stories coming about. I was being reported on the news. Why are we at the Capitol today? We're here to fight for LGBTQ rights. Why are you doing this program? Because our Latino community needs access. And then my story was also being shared. Why are you fighting for homeless youth? Because I'm a lived experience of homeless youth. And my family came back around, and they apologized, and they asked for me to stop sharing my story. They said, Jose, we're sorry. We really want to try to reconnect but stop sharing your story. You know, people are looking at us, and they were seeing what they had done. And I said, you're more than welcome to come back into my life, but you cannot stop me from sharing my story. Because even today, it is still happening, and people need to know that there's a safe place, safe home. There �18 are programs out here. There are people fighting for you, so they need to know. And they said, okay. It was like, perfect. And so I'm not one to hold grudges, so we just forgave, and we learned to continue on. And my dad is by my side now. He starts showing up at Pride. He showed up one time, and I'm in tears. I'm like, oh, I thought you would never come around. And so he comes back. He comes around. I win my first award, 30 Under 30, and we had to go to Oklahoma City, and he's very proud of me. And then I win the Gracias Latino Award, and then I win the Tulsa Young Professionals, because I got involved with the Tulsa Young Professionals. And then the last one I won before leaving was the Leadership Oklahoma Award. Toby Jenkins: So you got involved with Leadership Oklahoma. They recruited you, and then you went through that, and they wanted you to create a Latino. .. Jose Vega: No, they had a Latino one already. Toby Jenkins: So you went through that cohort. Toby Jenkins: And then you said, why is there not a LGBT one? Jose Vega: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Oh, gosh, this is good. So you created that program through Leadership Tulsa. Jose Vega: Yeah, so I did the Hispanic one, and it was so impactful. It really prepared me for the Hispanic Affairs. It really helped me get the tools that I needed for my Latino community. It made me great contacts too. And I saw how impactful it was. I was like, there needs to be a specific one for our LGBTQ communities. And in collaboration with them… Toby Jenkins: You almost had to force them to do it, didn't you? They were pretty resistant. Jose Vega: There was a little bit of resistance, but we showed them from the LGBT Center. We showed our data. We showed our community people that they needed it and wanted it. Toby Jenkins: And who funded that program? Jose Vega: The Schusterman Family Foundation. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Jose Vega: And so we had two programs. It was called Lead Together. Toby Jenkins: And if I'm not mistaken, that became the first LGBTQ specific cohort in the entire nation in the leadership Oklahoma Leadership program that was networked across the country was the first one, yeah, where somebody had said, oh, we need to have one that raises up LGBT young professionals to serve nonprofits- okay. �19 Jose Vega: And we did get many people from that cohort joined the center, from volunteering to… Toby Jenkins: Went on to become on, get on the staff and serve on the board, yeah, okay. So you mentioned Tulsa Young Professionals. I just want to say how profound I am that you included that your family reconnected and that you forgave them. That is an incredible testament of your personality and your character. You were connected to Tulsa Young Professionals and you got it in your head that we needed to have a rainbow crosswalk. So with Tulsa young professionals and the mayor's office, Mayor Bynum and the City Council tell us a little bit about our rainbow crosswalks in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Jose Vega: As I was involved with Tulsa Young Professionals with the diversity team and we always did pride together and then they did one year the chalk, they did a crosswalk chalk that year and we saw how impactful it was for the community. They loved it. I would scroll on Facebook and see so many photos, and then you could see it from a mile, from down the street, on 4th Street, as you're crossing over the bridge you could see it and to me I was like we need this permanent. Tulsa Young Professionals had a grant to make Tulsa better and to what can we improve in Tulsa, and so forth. So I had applied for a crosswalk to get that funded and we won. It got approved. But we were getting pushback from City Hall. No, that is not traffic regulations, and so forth. So we got a lot of pushback and I I encouraged city officials like please help me, we need to write a letter, we need to do this. So this is where more advocacy came in. But at the end of the day, they said no. Toby Jenkins: Let's stop right there. The reason the answer is no is because crosswalks must comply with federal regulation, which also includes ADA specific. They have to be a certain color, they have to be a certain width, they have to be at certain areas. So we were mad about this. Jose Vega: We showed data from all this…from Dallas, Miami, New York, Sacramento has one. So all of these had them. So I'm like: what are you talking about? Just because it's federal, we as city officials we can decide what we want in our city and town, but no, I understand the regulations. So as I'm talking with Tulsa Young Professionals, they're like: well, Jose, what else can we do? And as I'm thinking and thinking and thinking, I was like: then we shall take over the street and called it Pride Street then. And that's when 4th Street became Pride Street and we got these pride signs and that's what, right down the center, you know? Toby Jenkins: Good, now, the reason I want to specifically talk about this is right now, while we're having this interview, all across the United States, cities are being forced to remove their rainbow crosswalks because of pushback from the Trump administration and federal regulations, and state after state governors have said we're removing them in their own homophobia and transphobia. But yet, for some reason, Tulsa's safe because we have street signs because street signs are controlled- a part of municipal code, not federal code. The lesson I want this interview is: ask big and grab what you can get. �20 Jose Vega: Yeah, well, how I word that is: shoot for the moon and if you land among the stars. Toby Jenkins: Okay, very good. I've got a bunch of other things. Any questions, Mr. Neill? Dennis Neill: Let's talk about your growth within OkEq, your changing positions, and then also we want to touch on your hate crime or hate crimes during your experience as an adult. Jose Vega: I started as program coordinator, and then we've had such great success and growth. I had the opportunity to get a promotion and become program director. And then deputy director. I ran pride. I loved it, every moment of it. We fundraised for pride. I loved the Gala, all of those aspects. And then I was learning everything from Toby, and he shared with me on how we need to be more active within the Capitol. Take students, take youth out there, their voices, write letters. We did a lot of letter campaigns and so forth, that I said, Toby, how can I learn more and take a more leadership role? And I had the opportunity to become deputy director, and I helped make executive decisions within the organization to make visible, to make our spot and space even more visible in different areas. So, that's when we were very active in that portion, you know. Toby Jenkins: Tell us a bit about the hate crime incident that you had happen. Jose Vega: There was a moment where I, it was during flu season, because I was so sick, and I go to Walgreens, and I go pick up some medication as I'm waiting in line… I have this Revolution shirt that I love, because, you know, it is, we were trying to take back what the state is taking away from us. And even to today, they're taking even more away from us. So, that Revolution shirt, I still have it. It doesn't fit me anymore, you know, it got a little thicker. I know, the Revolution continues. I remember working on that video, too. Pride t-shirt, the pride rainbow flag. And as I'm waiting in line, this man just turns around and calls me fucking Mexican faggot. And he starts getting pushy and trying to cause a reaction from me. And I'm like, just please leave me alone. I'm just trying to check out. He's just picking and picking and picking at me, and I ignore it. And that's kind of what we do with, we encourage our constituents, that if they're being bullied or targeted, do not... they're just trying to get a reaction from you. Try to get somewhere safe. So, the safe place where I was trying to run to, because nobody was doing anything, was to my car. So, as this person's just nitpicking, picking me, and calling me names, homophobic slurs and racial slurs in the Walgreens drugstore. I walk out, continues. It's not till I start unlocking my car that where he attacks me. He starts hitting me inside the car, and I'm pushing him out. Grab the door, lock it. He starts spitting and then breaking my mirror. But just the adrenaline, the fear of, I could probably, something really bad could be happening to me right now. And we've seen, during our time here at the center, a lot of lives lost in this way. From getting attacked, assaulted, just for being who you are. So, I thought that was my time. �21 And he left. We called the cops, and something that struck me was, the only reason we will consider this a hate crime is because they did racial slurs. I was like, what about the homophobic slurs? He called me faggot and started spitting at me, assaulting me. He's like, that's not a protected class. But because he said, Mexican and go back to Mexico and all that, that's how we'll classify this as a hate crime. And to me, I was like, how is only half of who I am protected? No. And that's kind of where we started to do more advocacy from municipal to capitol. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So how did the cops handle the issue? Professionally, or were you disappointed in the response by them and any other legal authorities? Jose Vega: No, I was not. I wasn't disappointed at all. They really handled it well. Dennis Neill: I believe he got arrested, didn’t he? Jose Vega: They did get caught. Years later on. Years later. But the thing is that they kept that case open until years later on he was associated with that hate crime. Dennis Neill: And with regard to that terrible incident that you experienced, you were very visible with OkEq these five years that you were there. How about other incidents of both the good and the bad? E-mails, calls, threatening you, threatening friends. Did you experience any of that or was this kind of a one-off, this one incident? Jose Vega: No, no…Working at the center, you are visible as a target. Toby and I would share a lot of fearful moments. You know, when the bullets came through the center, when there was a drive-by, that was a scary time. What if that happened while we were here? I'm very glad that we had bullet resistant… Toby Jenkins: We installed that later. Jose Vega: But that's scary. And then also my car being vandalized multiple times. Dennis Neill: While parked here? Jose Vega: Not while parked here. But parked at home. Slashed tires. Toby Jenkins: I think that happened at a gay bar. Jose Vega: At a gay bar. I knew the risk that it came. But I also knew the reward of what we needed to do. Toby Jenkins: One of the things that I want to make sure we include in this portion of the story, we're talking about the incident, and I don't remember the exact date, when the center, someone shot up the front windows and the front door. Dennis Neill: March 6, 2017. There's the door [leading into the archives]. Toby Jenkins: Olivia caught her ride at work that morning, and she got here at 8 o'clock and called it in the police. But what was hanging up on the porch? What was hanging on the sign? Jose Vega: Immigrants are welcome here. �22 Toby Jenkins: So we never know for sure if they targeted us because we were the LGBTQ center or that we were advocating it's a safe place for the immigrant community. Jose Vega: Regardless of which one it was, it's the Equality Center. The Equality Center is for everyone. Race, orientation, gender identity, or documentation. Toby Jenkins: We were doing a lot of work at the Capitol, and we would take how many students to the Capitol? Jose Vega: Like two busloads? I think one time it was. Toby Jenkins: We'd take over 100 kids, and you would march them through the Capitol. And legislators would just run for cover. They wouldn't have to talk to us. Jose Vega: I do remember us chasing one down. I was like, no, no, no. Where are you going? Toby Jenkins: Now, I can't remember. Were you with us when we were up there and they sent out the memo that there's cross-dressers in the bathroom? See if you can tell a little bit about that story. Jose Vega: Oh, yes. So we all arrive, and every youth is like, oh, where do we goto the restrooms? We show them where the restrooms are. Then, I think a little before, after lunch, they send a memo saying there's cross-dressers in the building. Watch out. They're using the restrooms. And do not use the restrooms. Go use these private ones. And it was offensive for the youth. Toby Jenkins: And that's the image I will forever remember. Jose and a bunch of young people chasing the Lieutenant Governor across the rotunda of the Capitol, demanding an answer. Jose Vega: They were avoiding us. Toby Jenkins: And, of course, by the time we got on the bus to come home, when we arrived in Tulsa, the streets were full of TV cameras and news sources. And within two days, one of the persons who's running for governor had issued an apology to the community. Jose Vega: They saw the mistake they made, yeah. And they apologized. Toby Jenkins: Now, how did you feel about that situation? Did you feel we're not putting up with it? Jose Vega: What was going through my mind during that time? Yeah. One, I love the youth taking charge. And we put them in front of the cameras. They expressed their feelings. So, to me, it was a proud moment to see the youth come together and see the change that they could create. And, yes, we accept apologies. But there's a lot more work needing to be done. So, thank you for the apology. Now let's create that apology into policies. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So it was during this time that we kept getting phone calls on the helpline from all across the country or all across the state. So we were getting as many �23 phone calls locally on the helpline as we were from rural communities all across the state, and so you were instrumental in rolling out our chapter establishment. Jose Vega: But part of that I want to share, the story of when you and I were working late one night, because that that that was what ignited my fire even more. It's like you already have a fire and just pour more gas into it. It was when Toby and I were working late, and there was many nights we worked late. You know, prepare the next thing. Toby Jenkins: It was like midnight. Jose Vega: Midnight, it was around midnight and as we're walking out of the center, on our right corner, on the right, I see we see a young man with his bare footed, bleeding and crying, and we look over. They share their name and they said: I just turned 18, and my family has kicked me out for being gay. And I walked from the [Oklahoma] Panhandle to the center because I saw on the internet that there was this place, and I just got here walking from the Panhandle to me and then we bring him in, we bring them in, we give them water, and to me I'm like we need to do something for all the LGBT people in Oklahoma. We need to let them know that there's something here but there's also made something in their hometown, because seeing that, we needed to do something. So that's kind of where we started doing these chapters- OkEq chapters- and we had one in Norman, in Stillwater, McAllister, Bartlesville. Toby Jenkins: We traveled all over the state. We went to Altus, Oklahoma. Jose Vega: Yeah, we wanted to make sure that every Okla queer, I think, and we came up with a logo too for that too. They knew that there was a home here. Toby Jenkins: And that they could organize in their own communities. You were there when we organized the chapter in McAllister, Oklahoma and on January 1st, 2020, Dustin Parker, who was one of the members- founding members- of our chapter in McAllister, Oklahoma, he was murdered and they just recently arrested his murderer. Yeah, and do you remember traveling…I think you traveled with Dennis down there for the memorial service, where a thousand McAllister folks were standing in a field outside of their little gay bar across from the prison, behind the prison cemetery. Jose Vega: Dustin was a staple in his community and he really showed what activism looks like- grassroots- and shared his story. Toby Jenkins: I can remember that night. What was your thoughts? While we're standing in that field with Dennis, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, in McAllister, Oklahoma, to see how that city was grieving and also showing their support for LGBTQ people, did you have thoughts? Jose Vega: Yeah, as much as there's much more love in Oklahoma than hate, there's much more love, and love trumps all hate that there's out there. So seeing this small town come together for a community member- they didn't care about their gender, their identity, they came together for somebody who helps the community- come together show me that we need to do more for our state. We need to help our communities. They �24 made the- it's a small percentage- that are against LGBTQ community members. Because Oklahoma is about love. Our community is about care and support. That's why we have that southern love and charm. And we, I love that you always said, we're the prairie gays, you know. We have our lesbians chopping wood and helping build homes. And our gays churning butter to make sure we are fed and taken care of. And I see that, that's what we are. And all of those quotes stay with me. And I do share it still in California. And I was like, and in California they always tell me, oh that's a flyover state, who's all there? And I was like, there's prairie gays there. Our lesbians building homes, chopping wood, and our gays churning butter. That's my stomping ground. Toby Jenkins: That's funny. Let's go ahead and catch our viewers up. Because the pandemic comes. And then you eventually made some career choices. Before we talk about you going to do missionary work among the heathen in California... we sent you as a home missionary to California. You also, through collaboration with our foundations, created some programs that allowed you to travel nationally, internationally, and see LGBTQ people around the world. Jose Vega: Yeah, the Kaiser Family Foundation and the Schusterman Family Foundation, they support our LGBT community. They supported our cause. They allowed us to go to Creating Change, which is a conference that helped us prepare, you know, and learn what other people are doing and create change in Oklahoma. I did have the opportunity to join the Schusterman Reality Program. Toby Jenkins: Charles and Lynn Schusterman Family Foundation Reality Program. Jose Vega: Reality Program. And their first one was on LGBTQ pride. Bringing LGBTQ leaders from across the country and going to go to Israel and get to see the great work that they're doing on LGBTQ aspects. And they have an LGBTQ elected official helping. And it was a beautiful experience getting to hear stories, sharing their cause, what they're doing to advance, and then get to see Tel Aviv Pride, which is one of the largest prides, come together and share that it's one love that we're trying to build here. Toby Jenkins: In your experience with these opportunities that you were allowed to travel internationally, because you always went to represent our center at International Pride, InterPride. So you went to several of those international conferences. Your thoughts when you've traveled internationally and all the divisive things humanity has that make us hate each other and... Jose Vega: We're fighting ourselves. Our inner selves. Each other. To me, that's not what the cause is. We have enough people that are not part of our community fighting us. Why should we fight among ourselves? We should focus our energy elsewhere. Toby Jenkins: If our panelists have anything else, jump in here. You decided to go to California. Jose Vega: But during my time at Oklahomans for Equality, I've had many opportunities. I have great opportunities to travel, to see things, to create change. I love every moment of my life that during my time here, it's become maybe the man I am today. But there was one thing where I've never experienced living somewhere else. And I felt in my heart of hearts that I need to have that experience. I've traveled, I've seen, I've done, but I've �25 never lived anywhere else. And I'm the first to come out as gay in my family. First to graduate high school. First to get a bachelor's, and now to get a master's. In 2019, I told Toby, I want to experience living somewhere else. I may come back, but I need to have that experience. And so I started sending my resume everywhere. And COVID came, February, January, offers started getting pulled out. We didn't know what was happening. And I had two offers, the LGBT Community Center in Albany, New York, and the LGBT Community Center in Sacramento. And then in August, I made the decision and I got the Sacramento offer, moved there in October, and I've been there ever since. I've had multiple opportunities out there too. So from the LGBT Center, I focused on COVID. Our LGBT community members didn't have access to COVID testing, vaccines, and so we were focused on that. But also, HIV rates were going up because people were not getting tested. But also, we're now staying six feet apart and we're still having sex. And so we focused on at-home HIV test kits. We opened a new LGBT Center out there as well. Toby Jenkins: Medical Center. Jose Vega: Yeah. And so I helped facilitate that conversation. So everything that I did in Oklahoma prepared me for that because we opened a new center. We created little chapters. I helped with pride. I was there for two years. And then I had the opportunity to think and see, you know what, I think I'm ready to come back home. And there was a moment where I came home and wanted to apply and applied for the role to run the center. And at that time, you had already retired. Unfortunately, it wasn't in the cards. And I decided to go back. I said, okay. So I went back. Dennis Neill: And just from perspective, this is June of 2022, correct? Jose Vega: Yeah. June of 2022. That was the last pride year and we talked about it. And I said, Toby, I loved everything I learned out here. I saw what programs and policies and things that we could do. I think I'm ready to take the reins. Due to other factors, it didn't happen. But I had the opportunity to go back to California and work with the Office of AIDS, the state public health department and work with the Office of AIDS. And I worked there for two years and a half helping across the state to develop programs to enhance their HIV testing, education, and capacity building. Toby Jenkins: You also got involved in their public broadcasting system. You want to talk a little bit about that. Jose Vega: Yeah. So my master's is in public health promotion and education. And I'm a firm believer that education is key to getting community involved. And so I started working with PBS and NPR and access channels to build educational programming in English and Spanish. And so we built, we did, it's called County Edition. And our first episode was on sexual health. And it was such a big success that they were like, let's replicate it. But now it's completely in Spanish. And it consists of a host, of a doctor out in the public getting information. �26 And from that, I collected data. And it's shocking that so many people still believe that you can get an STI from sitting on a public toilet. And it's 2026 now and people still believe that. So to me, education still needs to continue growing as STI and HIV rates continue to go up. And all of these fund cuts that are happening at a federal level where HIV prevention and STI prevention are getting pulled out, we're going to see a high rise on HIV infections and even co-infections with a rise of syphilis. And that's going to hurt our mothers. And I say mothers by childbirth because the rate of congenital syphilis has been skyrocketing. And those are little young ones. Toby Jenkins: And so you talk a bit about your master's. What was your master's on? You just completed it. That's why we're getting this interview. Jose has come home for a family celebration to celebrate his graduation from his master's program. So he wanted Pebbles to see what Oklahoma looked like. So he brought his companion dog. Talk a little bit about your master's work there. Jose Vega: Yeah, so my it was a focus on HIV education within Latino communities and what I love about it is the program that we've developed is PrEP 15 years ago next year It'll be 15 years where PrEP was the first medication to be approved to Prevent HIV and I'll share a little bit of my work about PrEP here in Oklahoma. As a gay young man I know that I was even more highly potential exposure to HIV, so I started advocating for PrEP and talking about PrEP that I wanted to be on PrEP. Many doctors here in California would say I would come in to the office and say hey, I want to get on PrEP medication What is that? Mary Bishop-Baldwin: You mean here in Oklahoma? Jose Vega: Here in Oklahoma, so this was before…taking you back into back into time during my time here at the LGBT Center where I was like, I want to get on PrEP Many doctors said no, I don't feel comfortable with that. I don't understand it. I don't treat AIDS patients. And I said well, this is before before I get HIV and this is to prevent it. Nope, I don't accept your lifestyle It was constantly and it was during my time here at the center because I had Community Care insurance at that time and no doctor would accept me or see me for PrEP. There was many times where I needed PrEP postexposure so having access to that too. That's kind of what drove my master's degree and advocate for that because that still happens in California even totoday. As an Oklahoman, I would think that Oh, California is more liberal, more open, more accepting. There's more access. The honest truth is it's not, there's still a lot a lot to do. My program and proposal and project development was - PrEP was approved in 2016-2015 15 years ago. So let's give PrEP a Quinceanera, It'll bring Latino communities together. It'll bring trans communities together. It'll bring youth together because as a Latino man, there's I was in about 15 Quinceaneras growing up. My cousin. Toby Jenkins: And a Quinceanera is… Jose Vega: Quinceanera is a coming-of-age for a young woman that they are from childhood into womanhood at 15 and my cousins did one. There's gonna be one tomorrow for my nieces. So I was like, let's give PrEP a Quinceanera. And so we're �27 building this program in California in the Central Valley where every Latino will be like, why are they giving this medication a Quinceanera? I had one like we're about to do one for my daughter. It starts the conversation and said perfect. Let's tell you about this medication because our Latinos make the highest population on HIV in California of new infections So prevention is key and that's kind of what I do and that's my role because I know the barriers I had to access in Oklahoma so that's the work of my masters. Toby Jenkins: I don't think we're really able to talk about the company you work for. Jose Vega: No, but what my role - I'm the HIV community liaison For Sacramento and Central Valley. I've now been promoted to the Northern California Region where I come into organizations and clinics to help with their protocols, their workflows, education, support their program capacity, building evaluations, collect data. But also bring the community together to help end HIV. Toby Jenkins: Okay So I guess you're organizing chapters again. Jose Vega: Exactly from everything I learned from Oklahomans for Equality prepared me. Toby Jenkins: We're coming to the end unless our panelists have any other questions for you. Dennis Neill: Jose, where do you see your future going? What's your passion in the next five to ten years? Jose Vega: My passion is to help elevate and grow others, you know, and what was done to me what in support for me I want to give it back. That's always been my love and passion. I had the opportunity to do The mayor's Youth Council at high school, so I wanted youth to have that opportunity. I had the opportunity to grow and develop at the LGBT Center, so I want to help other youth other LGBTQ professionals grow and develop. I had the opportunity to move of California and help with HIV elimination. I'm doing that too. My goal in life is to continue doing that prepare the next generation because there's only so much I'm gonna be able to do or get to that we need to prepare our next LGBTQ warriors. I tell Toby we're in a slingshot era where yes, they're pulling us back. But the moment they let go they're gonna catapult us forward where we're better prepared now. Of all the rights they've taken from us, we're better prepared to learn how they went around it to build better policies and procedures. A better understanding of what we need to do to prepare our next generation because they're going to continue attacking us. I want to create a space where every LGBTQ person can live, thrive, and be happy. And during this time, it breaks my heart to hear all of our Oklahoma prairies move and leave away, and that leaves no voices out there. So I want to give back to community. I want to continue doing what I'm doing and help every aspect of our population. Dennis Neill: So you see yourself professionally staying for the foreseeable future within the LGBTQ community doing this work? �28 Jose Vega: In the LGBTQ movement, yes. I will continue to dedicate my life to the LGBTQ movement, at one capacity or another. Toby Jenkins: Any questions? Mary Bishop-Baldwin: No questions. I just want to say that your story is the most incredible that I think I've ever heard. How you've come from such beginnings and had to overcome so much trauma and adversity, and you stayed with it until you achieved goals every time. You never took no for an answer, and you knew your worth, your personal worth, and you weren't going to let somebody else establish boundaries for what you could be. And look what you've done. I admire you so much. Jose Vega: Thank you. Thank you. And that's what I want. I want to inspire others. I want them to see you can do it. There's still more to you. Something that we always told our youth, you know, it gets better. Keep at it. It keeps getting better. Toby Jenkins: Sometimes. It may get tougher, but it also can get better. While we think about that, let's say, do you have a message for the future, for people who come after us and for people who may review this and are just starting out? Do you have a message for them? Jose Vega: Continue believing in you. There's people that love you. There's home here. Believe in you. You have to believe in yourself. It may seem tough right now. It may seem like the world is against you. It may seem like there's no safe spaces. Come together. Come together and create it. Come together and join forces. Find your people. Your people are out there. You just need to find them. And where you can find them is here at the center. I'm a firm believer of the center. I love it. There were many times where I wanted to give up, but I found community here and purpose, inspiration. Every single person here in this room has inspired me one way or the other. From Dennis in a little closet behind the bar doing the helpline. From Toby helping lead the charge for creating change and sharing that his first job was the portapotties at Pride and helping with trash. And from Mary advocating for our marriage equality when the time seemed that we could never achieve it. These are all stepping stones. This center was built from block to block. We need you to be the second layer of block and glue. Toby Jenkins: You've been joining us today. If you'll say your name the way you like to say it. Jose Vega: Jose Emanuel Vega. Toby Jenkins: And his sidekick Pebbles. Pebbles, you did a great job during the interview. You've been joining us today here in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library and the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, headquarters of Oklahomans for Equality that sits on Pride Street in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality, Mary Bishop-Baldwin and Toby Jenkins have been your interviewing panel. Thank you so much, Jose. And congratulations on your Master's, your promotion at work. And thank you for not forgetting us and your family in Oklahoma. �29 Jose Vega: The revolution will always continue. Addendum: Top photo: Sign hanging at the Equality Center on March 6, 2017 when the windows and door were damaged by 13 pellet shots. Bottom Photo: Mayor G.T. Bynum, Jose and others celebrating the dedication of Pride Street on June 1, 2018. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Jose Vega Interview Subject The topic of the resource Jose Emmanuel Vega Oral History Project Interview from May 22, 2026 Description An account of the resource Join us for an inspiring interview with José Emanuel Vega, a dedicated LGBTQ+ advocate from Tulsa, Oklahoma, now making a difference in California. He shares his powerful story of overcoming trauma, fighting for LGBTQ+ rights, serving as Program Director and Deputy Director at Oklahomans for Equality, and building community through advocacy, education, and leadership. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jose Vega, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 22, 2026 2026 advocacy AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV prevention California coming out community conversion therapy Dennis Neill hate crimes HIV prevention HIV/AIDs human rights immigration interview Jose Emmanuel Vega Jose Vega leadership oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Toby Jenkins transcript Tulsa video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/4adebf0d44994d369d09f3575feec61d.jpg ad72637811113670aa330f4ea33f8595 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/7c2883bf7ed6d734cf5f7159d6a5724f.jpg 0667fe995ad8830d0ee5454a0496092b https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/27c6287171392a77018730fd0c5c30fc.pdf 7e2c30bad114e57670a3f5c51112bb2d PDF Text Text The Oklahomans for Equality History Project remembers with pride the U.S. Supreme Court opinions handed down on June 26 in various years that made monumental strides in the quest for equality for LGBTQ people. We think June 26 should be National Equality Day! ●​ On June 26, 2003, the Supreme Court struck down state sodomy laws across the nation in Lawrence v. Texas. ●​ On June 26, 2013, the Supreme Court killed the Defense of Marriage Act in U.S. v. Windsor AND overturned Prop 8 in California. ●​ On June 26, 2015, the Supreme Court made marriage equality the law of the land in Obergefell v. Hodges. ●​ On June 26, 2017, the Supreme Court ruled that all states must provide married same-sex couples the same "constellation of benefits" and recognition afforded to heterosexual couples. The OkEq History Project’s archives remind us of how Tulsa acknowledged all those cases and rulings. June 26, 2003 The Spring 2003 edition of the TOHR Torch, the publication of Oklahomans for Equality’s forerunner, Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, noted that Oklahoma was one of only four states that still specifically criminalized same-sex sodomy at that time. The others were Texas, Kansas and Missouri. The Arkansas Supreme Court had overturned that state’s same-sex sodomy law the previous year. The U.S. Supreme Court was expected to issue a ruling in Lawrence v. Texas in June, and an article in the Spring 2003 Torch announced that Lee Taft, Lambda Legal regional director in Dallas, was to discuss the case at Fellowship Congregational United Church of Christ in Tulsa on April 14. Lambda Legal had represented the two defendants in a criminal sodomy case and led the case through appeals. “Battling for years in the Texas courts, we sought to overturn the criminal convictions (which made the two men registerable ‘sex offenders’ in several states) and to have Texas’s law declared unconstitutional,” Lambda says on its website. “When the highest court in Texas eventually refused to even hear our arguments, we convinced the U.S. Supreme Court to take the case. In a stunning victory, the highest court in the land found the “Homosexual Conduct” law unconstitutional and established, for the first time, that lesbians and gay men share the same fundamental liberty right to private sexual intimacy with another adult that heterosexuals have.” The ruling overturned the June 30, 1986, precedent of Bowers v. Hardwick, in which the U.S. Supreme Court had ruled that states had the right to criminalize sodomy on the grounds of public morality. �The TOHR Torch noted that “sodomy laws (were) used to justify discrimination against lesbians and gay men … in every day life; they’re invoked in denying employment to gay people, in refusing custody or visitation for gay parents, and even in intimidating gay people out of exercising their free speech rights.” The Lawrence ruling set the stage for later advances in the struggle for equal rights under the law, with each case building on those that had come before. The Summer 2003 TOHR Torch included an article from the History Project outlining the history of sodomy laws, with a focus on Oklahoma, where in 1890 the pre-statehood territory’s Legislature had codified its sodomy law with a penalty of up to 10 years in prison. The relevant statute, Title 21, Section 21-886, refers to the crime as “the detestable and abominable crime against nature.” State courts made consensual heterosexual sodomy legal in 1986 but retained the right to prosecute consensual homosexual conduct. That Summer 2003 article noted that “Oklahoma’s law has become legal justification for firing gay and lesbian teachers, administrators and school personnel, nursing home workers and others. These Oklahomans and other gays and lesbians are therefore required to choose between their livelihoods and their ability to be open about who they are. As a result, gays and lesbians in Oklahoma are deterred from seeking political and social change.” With repercussions like those, it’s no wonder so many gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender Oklahomans continued to live in the closet. The Lawrence ruling made it possible for many to come out of the shadows and was a major building block for the legal victories that came later. June 26, 2013 Ten years later, two huge advances in the quest for marriage equality came out of the U.S. Supreme Court on June 26, 2013. The July 3, 2013, OkEq eNews reported that on the evening of Wednesday, June 26, 2013, more than 400 celebrants gathered at a Decision Day Rally at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center to celebrate that morning’s Supreme Court rulings on both the Defense of Marriage Act and Proposition 8, making same-sex marriage legal in California again. The group heard from attorney and OkEq board member Mike Redman and the plaintiffs in the Oklahoma marriage equality lawsuit, Mary Bishop & Sharon Baldwin and Sue Barton & Gay Phillips. “There was a champagne toast and a fabulous wedding cake from Merritt's Bakery,” the article says. The eNews article shares photos from the Decision Day Rally. �Oklahomans for Equality Board of Directors President Angela Sivadon, center, and her now-wife, Mary Robinson, serve wedding cake to the crowd at the Decision Day rally in 2013. The overturning of DOMA meant that the United States government would recognize any marriage – including same-sex marriages – recognized by any state. It did not, however, force states to recognize same-sex marriages. That fight was left for other cases, but, like Lawrence v. Texas, United States v. Windsor was a fundamental building block for those that followed. In California, the nation’s largest state, marriages of same-sex couples had been legal since June 17, 2008, after a May 15 ruling by that state’s Supreme Court. But a group of people, known as the proponents of Prop 8, gathered enough signatures to put Proposition 8, a proposed state constitutional amendment, on the ballot. Prop 8 was to define marriage as between only a man and a woman and to stop the same-sex marriages. When they went to the polls on Nov. 4, 2008, more than 13 million Californians voted 52% to 48% in favor of the state question. No more same-sex marriages were allowed – at least for the time being – but about 18,000 had already been solemnized. The resulting amendment was challenged in court in Hollingsworth v. �Perry, and on June 26, 2013, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the proponents, who defended the constitutional amendment after the state of California refused to do so, did not have standing – or the legal right – to defend the case. Therefore, the Aug. 4, 2010, ruling of U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker that Prop 8 violated the U.S. Constitution was upheld. Same-sex marriages began again in California on June 28, 2013. June 26, 2015 Marriage equality was achieved for all the land on June 26, 2015, when the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in Obergefell v. Hodges that marriage is a fundamental right that is guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution to everyone, including same-sex couples. Oklahoma had achieved marriage equality through the courts a year earlier, but all the states that still did not have marriage equality were required at that time to authorize and recognize marriages of same-sex couples. Oklahomans for Equality proclaimed in its June 30, 2015, eNews that “at long last, there is no such thing as ‘gay marriage’ – now it's just MARRIAGE!” The eNews article shares photos from the Marriage Equality Celebration Rally that OkEq held at the Equality Center that evening. Attendees at the Marriage Equality Celebration Rally on June 26, 2015 – the day the U.S. Supreme Court made marriage equality the law of the land in the Obergefell case – give attorneys Don Holladay and Joe Thai, front left, a standing ovation. Holladay and Thai, along with attorneys James Warner III and Jeffrey Fisher, represented the plaintiffs in the Oklahoma marriage equality lawsuit, which they had won the year before. June 26, 2017 �The U.S. Supreme Court followed up exactly two years later with a ruling that clarified for states that didn’t yet get it what it had meant by marriage equality in 2015. Its ruling in Pavan v. Smith would establish that all states must provide married same-sex couples with the same benefits and recognition they afford to heterosexual couples. The plaintiffs were two legally married Arkansas same-sex couples, the Jacobses and the Pavans, who had conceived children through anonymous sperm donation. The state refused to list the wives of the birth mothers as co-parents on the children’s birth certificates, citing a state law. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the law was “inconsistent” with its Obergefell ruling. “When an opposite-sex couple conceives a child by way of anonymous sperm donation – just as the petitioners did here – state law requires the placement of the birth mother’s husband on the child’s birth certificate. … And that is so even though (as the State concedes) the husband “is definitively not the biological father” in those circumstances. … Arkansas may not, consistent with Obergefell, deny married same-sex couples that recognition,” the Supreme Court wrote in its decision. The Oklahomans for Equality History Project encourages you to learn more about OkEq’s history and the history of our rights by visiting our online archives at history.okeq.org. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] June 26 Supreme Court Rulings Subject The topic of the resource LGBTQ civil rights cases Description An account of the resource 2 photos and 1 article regarding the very consequential U.S. Supreme Court decisions handed down on June 26 in various years that furthered LGBTQ rights. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mary Bishop-Baldwin Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Oklahomans for Equality History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 26, 2026 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource Copyright (c) 2026 Oklahomans for Equality Angela Sivadon birth certificates co-parents Defense of Marriage Act DOMA don holladay Gay Phillips Joe Thai Lawrence v. Texas marriage equality mary bishop Mary Robinson Obergefell Pavan v. Smith Prop 8 sharon baldwin sodomy Sue Barton Windsor Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Laura Arrowsmith Interview Subject The topic of the resource Laura Arrowsmith Oral History Interview from April 23, 2026 Description An account of the resource In this compelling interview, Dr. Laura Arrowsmith shares her personal journey of living as a transgender woman, her medical transition, and her advocacy work in Oklahoma. Her story highlights resilience, medical insights, and the importance of authenticity. This interview with Dr. Laura Arrowsmith explores her journey as a transgender advocate, medical professional, and community leader. She shares insights on medical treatments, advocacy efforts, challenges faced due to political attacks, and her vision for future support for transgender individuals. <strong>Available for onsite research with advance permission.</strong> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 23, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Laura Arrowsmith, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill 2026 activism advocacy Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill discrimination education healthcare interview Laura Arrowsmith OKEQ History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Toby Jenkins transcript Transgender video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/320d437d44e058a1c10df596b65f542b.mp4 afd12d3e5bc94309d8993ee1619c5595 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/92880036a522ecbbf758f71b648fb7a0.pdf dd57b2cf9caee06bb59f00c1812ddc05 PDF Text Text 1 Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Michael James Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: July 21, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Mary Bishop-Baldwin using Reduct.Video AI July 24, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org �2 About Michael James: Summary In this in-depth interview, Michael James, known as MJ in the community, shares his journey living with HIV for nearly 30 years, his activism, and his extensive involvement in LGBTQ+ advocacy, community service, and HIV awareness initiatives in Tulsa. Discover inspiring stories, community efforts, and the importance of resilience and support. Keywords HIV, LGBTQ+, community activism, Tulsa, HIV awareness, advocacy, Rainbow Library, Pride, HIV retreats, community service Key Topics MJ's personal HIV journey and living with HIV for nearly 30 years Community activism and LGBTQ+ advocacy in Tulsa The significance of HIV retreats and community support programs Historical overview of LGBTQ+ bars and social spaces in Tulsa MJ's involvement with American Airlines' diversity and inclusion efforts The story behind the AIDS quilts and their importance in remembrance MJ's role in organizing Pride events and community fundraising The impact of healthcare policies on people living with HIV The importance of resilience, support, and community in health and advocacy Future directions for HIV awareness and LGBTQ+ support in Tulsa Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction 00:56 MJ's Volunteer Work and Community Involvement 03:51 The HIV Wellness Retreat and Its Impact 07:00 MJ's Personal HIV Diagnosis and Early Days 10:06 Living with HIV Since 1992 and Medical Care �3 14:59 MJ's Childhood and Coming Out Journey 19:58 MJ's Military Service and Awareness of Sexual Orientation 24:51 Early Social Life and LGBTQ+ Social Spaces in Tulsa 30:01 Career Transition and Work at American Airlines 34:45 Involvement in LGBTQ+ Employee Groups and Pride 39:55 Community Fundraising and Support Activities 44:59 The AIDS Quilts and Their Significance 55:01 MJ's Advocacy and Community Leadership 59:59 Future of HIV Awareness and Community Support 01:05:00 MJ's Message to Future Generations Michael James Oral History Interview July 21, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Good afternoon. Today we are in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library. It is July 21st, 2026. The thermometer outside is a hundred degrees, and it's a hot interview coming up for you. We look forward to it. Today, our special guest is: Michael James: Michael James. Toby Jenkins: Michael James, better known in the community as MJ, and he gives a whole new definition to the worker bee, and we are so honored to have him here. We are in the library, and this is the Oklahomans for Equality History Project interview in the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, home and headquarters of Oklahomans for Equality, which sits on Pride Street in downtown Tulsa, Oklahoma. Today our interview panelists are Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality; Mary Bishop-Baldwin, plaintiff in the Oklahoma marriage equality lawsuit. We are so glad to have you today, Michael James. Are you comfortable with us calling you MJ, since that's how we all know you, or would you rather use your Christian name? Michael James: MJ is fine. Toby Jenkins: Okay, we want to jump right in. Got a page full of yeah, yeah, amazing to have you. First of all, I want us to start with talk – kind of tell us some of your volunteer work that you do right now, today, here at the Equality Center, so people know kind of what you do, and do you still serve on the Advisory Board? Michael James: Unfortunately, no, in regard to the Advisory Board, because they did away with those at the – here just recently, so didn't have enough to go. So as far as volunteering, now I am, I manage the bar down in the Linn Riggs Theater. I'm here for every event. Within those events, I make sure that they have a crafted cocktail specific to their event to make their event just that much bigger, better, you know, for their, their �4 clientele. So I do that. I also do some volunteer work, and I'm part of a group called Positively Grateful, which is an HIV resource group, and we meet here every Friday at 6 o'clock and have a community meal. That is really open to the public. If you don't know anything about HIV, STDs, we have learning situations. Other than that, it's a place to just come and meet new folks that have the same issues that you do. You know. So. Toby Jenkins: So are there – do families attend these meetings sometimes who recently there maybe their loved one has got an HIV diagnosis, or I mean, is this … ? Michael James: So, my mother comes to every meeting that she possibly can. She hasn't here lately to her health issues. But, yes, we have partners; we have family; we have grandchildren; we have nieces, you know, and we also get that at our yearly retreat. That's the whole point of Positively Grateful is we fundraise for a yearly retreat every year at the end of August, and that just goes so, so that anybody who is newly diagnosed, has been living with HIV, or their caregivers, can come spend four days for a nominal registration fee of $50, meals included, all types of – you're out Choteau, Oklahoma, 45 minutes away, but yeah, it's so that they can know what to expect. Toby Jenkins: And how many years have y’all had this? Michael James: Positively Grateful is going on three years. Prior to that there was a group called Positively Grateful – no, Grateful -- anyway. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Grateful Day. Michael James: Grateful Day. Thank you, sorry. And I was with them about five years, and we started in a camp up in northeast Oklahoma – really great camp. But I've been supportive of those events. I have been a camper. I've been a volunteer. Anything I can do to help that go smoothly for not only the organization but the campers, I'm gonna, … Toby Jenkins: Maybe I – I may be merging some things. Was this originally, this HIV wellness retreat, wasn't it started by Hope Church, Michael James: Community of Hope. Toby Jenkins: Community of Hope by Rev. Bob Lawrence? Michael James: That is a true statement, yes. Toby Jenkins: So the retreat's been around at least 20 years probably. Michael James: Yes, and then it went away, and then we picked it up. The original founders of Grateful Day were Sabrina K. Marshall, Shana, I can't remember Shanna's last name. Toby Jenkins: Justice Flowers, aka Sabrina. Michael James: Yes, Shana, and then they brought, Toby Jenkins: Cozad �5 Michael James: Yes, Cozad, and then Chuck, they brought Chuck Courtney in, and that's how I really got involved with them was through Chuck. Chuck and I went to school together, so. Toby Jenkins: Now, is Penny Fruth still involved with this? Michael James: Unfortunately, Penny has left the group. Toby Jenkins: Okay, but she was involved. Michael James: She was involved, yes. Very good ally. Toby Jenkins: Now, tell us how critically important this retreat is to a portion of the community that – it's kind of like the highlight of their year. Michael James: So it is. I mean, being a person diagnosed with HIV back in '92, you feel like you're on an island and, you know, yes, you have all these people that you see day to day and stuff, but you really can't truly just be yourself and, you know, and what this does is it gives them four days to come be themselves and not worry about any stigma. Just the people themselves, seeing them come in, you know, just kind of cornered up, you know, and then by the end of the retreat, it's just this big, beautiful … person, you know, that you didn't even expect to see. Things like that just really... Toby Jenkins: And where is the retreat taking place now? Michael James: Retreat now is at Camp Christian. Toby Jenkins: It's been there for now how many years? Michael James: Oh, uh … Toby Jenkins: Ten something? Michael James: Yes, yeah. I would say eight to 10. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Michael James: So, very wonderful group. They shut down the camp altogether so that we can have that weekend to be ourselves. Toby Jenkins: We're gonna ask you to do something with either slip your watch in your pocket or something, so we don't... Yeah, sorry about that. Okay, and now that way you can feel free to use your hands. I love this retreat. It meant the world to me. For several years, I had to help secure the grants for this retreat, and they would gather here and transport up there. Now, I know back in the day, usually they had 30, 35 people. Is it still? Michael James: Yes, yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Michael James: They did have one of the lodges burned down. Yes, one of the newest lodges burned down, like, right after they referred. We had just left. It was their first year �6 to have it open, like, two months, and, yeah, it was scary. But wonderful group of people out there. We went to their grand opening, their groundbreaking ceremony for the new lodge. Very welcoming, you know, all different types of faiths. Toby Jenkins: So, the name of the camp is? Michael James: Camp Christian. Toby Jenkins: Now, is it a faith-based nonprofit, or is it tied to a particular denomination? Michael James: So, I can't remember. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: It's a camp of the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) in Oklahoma. Toby Jenkins: So, it's the Disciples of Christ? Michael James: Yes, yes, yes, exactly, exactly. Toby Jenkins: So, it's an inclusive denominational... I guess the Disciples of Christ now are inclusive and affirming. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: I wouldn't say every congregation is, no. Toby Jenkins: But it's an official policy of the denomination, right? So, I'm glad that they work closely with you. Anything else about that retreat? Michael James: Oh, you know, I just, if you know somebody who is, please support them. Show them all the love you can. If you can go learn about the, you know, HIV or STDs, take the time to do it. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you said you were diagnosed in 1992. Was that here in Tulsa? Michael James: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And can you tell us a little bit about that experience? And now that's, so that means you've been living with HIV for almost 30 years, 34 years? Michael James: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Michael James: It was really scary. I had just gotten with my partner and something happened that made me go to the doctor. And I think I had just gotten insurance. Not always been the life of luxury for me, you know, just like everybody else. Ups and downs. You know, I was a hairdresser after I came out of the Army. Went to school to be a hairdresser, did that for a while. Met up with my partner, and in '92 found out that I was HIV positive and got kicked to the curb. Yeah. My mother was there and very supportive, went to my appointments with me. If it wasn't for our lab tech, Dorinda, you know, telling me, “Hey, you know, it's kind of like drugs. You don't worry. You don't let them work you. You work this disease. You tell it what's gonna happen.” And that's �7 pretty much how I've lived my life, you know. I'm not gonna let it get me down. I'm gonna do what I can. Toby Jenkins: Now in 1992, this would have been still during the ATZ years. Michael James: Compavir, yeah. Toby Jenkins: I mean, so was that what, were you started on it immediately? Michael James: Yes, yes, yeah. I wasn't diagnosed with HIV, with, AIDS. I was diagnosed HIV positive. I was just above. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you had no symptoms? Michael James: Correct. So, yeah. Toby Jenkins: But you started on the medication? Michael James: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Because there was a period where if, unless you had symptoms, they didn't start you on the medication, but they started. Michael James: They gave me the option, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and that would have been in 1992. Had you had friends who had had HIV, and had you had friends who had died of AIDS? Michael James: At that time, I didn't know. I was fairly new to the coming out at that point in time. Yeah, so a small-town boy. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so you weren't necessarily aware of … . You hadn't had a friend die of AIDS. Michael James: Correct. Toby Jenkins: I'm so glad that your mother was there with you and supported you. Let's talk a little bit about your childhood. Where were you born? Michael James: Cushing, Oklahoma. Toby Jenkins: Whoa, didn't know that. I had no idea. Michael James: My mother had to drive. We lived in Sapulpa. On Mother's Day, they drove to Cushing, Oklahoma, to deliver me. Toby Jenkins: Why did they go to Cushing? Michael James: That's where her doctor was. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Michael James: This was back in 1966, Toby. �8 Toby Jenkins: The good ol’ days. Michael James: Rural Oklahoma. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Well, also would have had big oil influence. Rural hospitals in those days in Oklahoma were heavily funded by the petroleum industry, so that's a side fact. So, you were born in Cushing, but your family lived in Sapulpa. Michael James: I grew up in the Creek County area. My grandmother lived in Sapulpa. I had a Sapulpa address, a Kiefer telephone number, and I went to school in Mounds. Toby Jenkins: Oh, Mounds. Okay. Michael James: Not Liberty! Liberty is on the east side. We got nuts. Toby Jenkins: So, in school, were you athletic or in the music program or band? Michael James: I was actually in the choir. So, went to state several times. I was like a first soprano up until sophomore year, so, and then, yeah, I started smoking. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you were used music in high school. When you graduated, what year would that have been? Michael James: 1984. Toby Jenkins: From Mounds High School? Michael James: From Mounds High School. Toby Jenkins: And how many were in your graduating class? Michael James: A little over 30. Toby Jenkins: Oh, really? Michael James: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay, I thought Mounds was bigger than that. Michael James: No. Toby Jenkins: Well, I guess not. Michael James: Not back then. Yeah, yeah, it's grown tremendously somehow. Toby Jenkins: So, you graduate from Mounds High School in 19Michael James: 84. Toby Jenkins: Okay, now, just curious. How do you, what's your sexual orientation? How do you identify? Michael James: I'm gay. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and pronouns? �9 Michael James: He, him. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and so you're in Mounds, Oklahoma, and you're in the choir, which is like gay preschool, but especially if you went to state college. When did you begin to be aware of your orientation and that you might be gay? Michael James: You know, we all experimented when we were going through puberty and stuff, but it really wasn't until after high school. Like I said earlier, I went into the -- I graduated high school weighing 275 pounds and then went straight into the military from there. So that's really pretty much all I know out of high school. So. Toby Jenkins: So in the military, you got away from Mounds, Oklahoma, and you're now in the military. And where did you go to basic and all? Michael James: I went to basic at Fort Dix, New Jersey, in the middle of wintertime. Toby Jenkins: Oh, mercy. Michael James: Literally bivouac and having to do push-ups where the snow went in and touched my cheek. Yeah, buried my nose. Toby Jenkins: And so then you were exposed to a bigger world. Were you aware that you were gay? I mean, had you? Michael James: I thought about it, I mean, but I didn't take action on it, because I really enjoyed being in the military, and I didn't want to screw it up. Dennis Neill: So when you were in high school, did you do the typical dating girls thing? Michael James: Yeah, yeah. Had a girl. Took her to the … Dennis Neill: You had no inclination then that there was anything different? Michael James: No. Yeah, you know. You guys know me now. I love everybody, OK? And that's just how I've always been. So yeah. Toby Jenkins: OK. So when did you acknowledge your orientation, and when did you develop an intimate relationship with someone? Michael James: Well, it was around 1989, ‘90-ish, OK? Maybe a little earlier, because I graduated high school, went directly from high school into the military. And then about eight months later, I was discharged. Toby Jenkins: Came back to Tulsa. Michael James: Yep. 25-inch waist, shaved head, baby blues, youth on my side, yes. And that's kind of when I kind of let go and said, “Here I am, world.” You know, so. Toby Jenkins: So did you go to gay bars, or did you? Michael James: At one point, I got into a really popular bar when I was underage on a $5 well night. But other than that, I didn't really. �10 Toby Jenkins: Do you remember what the bar was? Michael James: Yes, Zippers. Michael James: Zippers? OK. Yeah. So tell us about the clubs you went to in those days. Michael James: Let's see. Zippers was the only one I went to when I was underage. Everything else, I waited until after the fact. We would go hang out. There was an afterhours club called Exile. I don't know if you remember that off of 11th Street, I think it was. So we'd always go do their hang out. Toby Jenkins: So during those days, you were going to, that's primarily how you were connecting with gay people, was at the clubs. OK. Do you remember some of the bars that were popular in those days? Michael James: Yes. Renegades, Levi's 501, Concessions, Bamboo, Yellow Brick Road. Toby Jenkins: End Up? Michael James: That was before the End Up, wasn't it? Toby Jenkins: OK. Michael James: Yeah. Trying to think, there was one, I think. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever go to Tim's Playroom? Michael James: No, no. My ex performed there, though. Toby Jenkins: Taj Mahal? Michael James: No. Toby Jenkins: Caruso's? Michael James: No. Dennis Neill: A lot of those were probably closed, weren't they? Michael James: Yeah. Dennis Neill: So tell us a little more about Levi's. Michael James: Strokes. Toby Jenkins: Strokes. Dennis Neill: Oh, yeah. Tell us a little bit more about Levi's 501. Where was it located? Michael James: Levi's 501, if you are standing in front of Renegades, looking at the front door, OK, this street over here, I think is like 17th or something like that. If you went straight down that road, like two blocks on the right hand side on the corner, there was �11 a big industrial looking barn type thing. And that was where Levi's 501 was. At that point in time, I was dating Marsha LaRue. Toby Jenkins: Which is? Michael James: Marsha LaRue was a local female entertainer. Michael James: And she was I believe a Miss Gay Something at one point. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so that was the drag name. Michael James: Yes. Toby Jenkins: What was the … Michael James: Mark Lanier. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you were dating a title holder. Michael James: Yes, yes. I was the trophy husband, I guess. Toby Jenkins: And you went to the clubs, and that's how you connected. Michael James: Yeah. Tiki Nook. My dad actually went to that bar. Dennis Neill: And where was it located? Michael James: Tiki Nook was uh, corner of right there off of, so Camelot Hotel, Highway 44, there was a big hotel complex there, and it was upstairs. And then there was an after-hours bar downstairs called Buddies that Mike Treat ran, if I'm not mistaken, so. Toby Jenkins: Good lord, Dennis. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: These were gay bars? Michael James: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Where was Strokes? Michael James: Strokes, wasn't it where Concessions was? Dennis Neill: Yes. Same place. Michael James: Yeah. Dennis Neill: And then also, MJ, about that time close to Levi's, now that you explain it, was a bar called Ma Bell's. You remember that one? It may have closed before then, but Ma Bell's was at 15th and Boulder. Michael James: I don't remember Ma Bell's. I do remember SRO, which was at 15th and Boulder. And it's now that Mexican place, and then it became … Oh, what was it? Dennis Neill: No, SRO was at 18th and Boulder. �12 Michael James: Okay. So no. I'm sorry. Dennis Neill: Okay. No. Toby Jenkins: What does SRO stand for? Michael James: Standing room only. Toby Jenkins: Okay, none of these bars have I heard of – in all the interviews and research. Dennis Neill: And I’d forgotten about Ma Bell’s. Michael James: Delasandro’s, you know Delasandro’s? Yeah, you know that connecting little area with the patio there. That used to be SRO. Toby Jenkins: Oh, yeah. Dennis Neill: And that became Area 18. Michael James: That's right. That's, that's what I was. Yes, Area. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Michael James: Hazmat symbol. Toby Jenkins: All right. So it was the gay bars that you were connecting with? Okay, so during this time were you out to your family? Michael James: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Michael James: Everybody probably knew, 'cause … Toby Jenkins: You mentioned earlier that you were a hairdresser by profession. Michael James: Correct. So after I came back, you know, like I said, everybody's got bad times in their life. Got into a little drug issue and, yeah, got down on my luck and just had to rebuild myself back up. So my mother was married to a vet who was very closed-minded and did not want me around. So unfortunately during that time I didn't see a lot of my family. Toby Jenkins: He didn't want you around because of the drugs or … Michael James: Because of my sexuality. Toby Jenkins: So you had told your mother you were gay? Michael James: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Do you remember that experience? �13 Michael James: I don't. I really don't remember coming out to my mother. The only really bad thing I was, you know letting her know that I was HIV positive, so, and that was really hard. Toby Jenkins: So this would have been in the late '80s, early '90s. And you, were you working at a hair salon, a commercial hair salon, or were you were your own? Michael James: I worked in a place called A Cut Above the Others owned by Woody – I cannot remember Woody's last name – but I started there as his apprentice and built my own clientele up, and then I got with my partner that kicked me to the curb when I found out I was HIV positive because he didn't like me working late nights. Of course, at that time we had also adopted a 5-year-old autistic child. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Didn’t know this. Michael James: Yes, so we were foster parents of this young man. Toby Jenkins: And how long did you have him? Michael James: We were together about five years, and two of that we had … Toby Jenkins: Had the child. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: And did the child stay with him or? Michael James: Yes, yeah, yeah. Dennis Neill: So, MJ, you adopted together as a couple? Michael James: It was, not legally. Yes, it was a foster program type thing. And really I don't know all the specifics of it because he worked in that area, so he knew all the bells and whistles, the ins and outs. Dennis Neill: So he was a state employee? Michael James: Not a state employee, okay, because at that point in time they were getting away from state employees. They were doing – Hissom (Memorial Center) was no longer; they were putting everybody out of Hissom, so there were a lot of developmentally disabled individuals moving into the community, and this person worked with those. Dennis Neill: I see. Toby Jenkins: So, you were a hairdresser, and we come up to the point where in 1992 you were diagnosed. When did you change careers, and, because I know you've been with American Airlines, how many years now? Michael James: I've been with American Airlines for 25. Toby Jenkins: 25 years, okay. So did you go from hairdressing to American Airlines, or was there... �14 Michael James: No, there was a period of time in there, okay, I mean, screw it, here I go, you know, party boy. So that's, yeah, and then I was about, what was it, I guess 35ish. Actually, it was before that. I was, oh, I was working in a bar downtown called The Underground. And what was the name of the bar that was next to that? Dennis Neill: The Dance Park. Michael James: Yes, Regina was there. Dennis Neill: I can't remember the name of it. It's very simple. Michael James: Yeah, yeah, I was working at The Underground, and this... Toby Jenkins: Well, you've already listed 12 bars that I have been to. Were there any straight bars in Tulsa in those days? Michael James: So actually there, so at the place where The End Up is, okay, you asked about End Up, there was actually, it was an Irish-named bar, I think it was called The Shamrock, and Marsha LaRue, Amanda Love, Trudy Tyler, oh, gosh, Bobby, Bobby, I cannot think of his name, Randy, yeah, they went there and did a show. Toby Jenkins: At the Shamrock? Michael James: At the Shamrock, yes, straight, I mean, and that was, yeah, but it was a great time. It was really neat. Dennis Neill: Just real briefly, back when you were diagnosed and you were living in Tulsa, how did you find, one, the medical care here to support you with your diagnosis and any of the support groups that you got associated with? Michael James: So my doctor referred me to Tulsa Cares, and I went through the program, and I actually, like a former director here, I utilized the system to get me through until I could take and provide for myself, you know, so. Dennis Neill: And the doctor, is it somebody you can name? Michael James: So Int to say his name was Dr. Lewis. Dennis Neill: So it wasn't one of the doctors that was? Michael James: No, it was nobody, not at that time, so, yeah. Dennis Neill: And you continued to get medical care through Dr. Lewis? Michael James: So I used the system up until I got my job with American. So as I was saying, I was working at Underground, and a gentleman would come in every day, a really nice gentleman, and we became friends. Well, he just happened to own a local computer software company, and his secretary was getting ready to retire, so he offered me that position. So during my downtime as a receptionist, I taught myself how to use the computer. I mean, I had keystrokes, the whole nine yards. I did that for seven years, and then I was hired March, went to work at American, January the 2nd, 2001, and then got hired on March 19th full-time. �15 Toby Jenkins: And American Airlines has been through multiple transitions, and you never lost your job? Michael James: This close. This close to 9/11. So back then it was a management/staff clerk type position, and now it's a union position, so I got time. Toby Jenkins: And so with American Airlines came insurance and a lot of resources for your personal life. Michael James: Yep. So at that point in time, you know, I had to jump ship. Toby Jenkins: Jump ship? Michael James: As far as I was making too much money for the Ryan White program at Tulsa Cares, so I had my own insurance and stuff, went to my own private care. I went to Dr. Haas. She was my doctor for forever. Toby Jenkins: Let's just take this opportunity for our viewers to understand this. Health care, medical insurance was a defining moment because prior to the Affordable Care Act, Obamacare as we call that, which decided you could not refuse treatment or you could not deny somebody based on a pre-existing condition. So that was a life-saving … So all of a sudden we had this surge of people who were able to return to the work force, because in those days, Michael, you went to work for American Airlines, you got insurance, your pre-existing illness didn't disqualify you. But did you always be afraid that if you ever lost your job with American Airlines that you would lose your health insurance? Because your health insurance didn't travel with you. Michael James: Correct. Toby Jenkins: And so I just want our viewers to understand historically it was the difference in people who were able to work and have health insurance, but sometimes you would stick with the job you hated because you had health insurance and you didn't want to lose your health insurance, which people still do for other reasons, too. Okay, so you went to work at American Airlines. I notice that there's so many things that you've been involved in. I want to … You went to work for American Airlines. Were you out at work? Michael James: I was myself, okay? No matter what, I'm kind of a back, shied off guy, but I'm gonna be myself no matter what. And I mean everybody knew. Whenever I came out and joined the pride group and started our pride group out there, I didn't have to do any. I didn't have to come out, you know. Toby Jenkins: What year would that have been? Michael James: About ten years ago? Toby Jenkins: I thought longer than that. Michael James: No, it's been about … Mary Bishop-Baldwin: And this is an employee resource group? �16 Michael James: Employee business resource, the Pride Employee Business Resource group that started in 1984, I believe it was, right when the AIDS epidemic was in full swing and they wanted American Airlines to burn the blankets and pillows and everything after pride flights, yes. Yes, ma'am. And we formed a pride – or actually it was called GLEAAM back then. Yes, Gay Lesbian Employees of American Airlines, so. Toby Jenkins: Because of the discrimination and the stigma? Michael James: Correct. If you're gay, you got AIDS. Toby Jenkins: So did you have to revive the chapter here in Tulsa or did you have to start it? I mean, had they ever had … Michael James: We had to revive it. So, as you said, American’s been through a lot of stuff. At one point they really brought DEI to the forefront, and it really wasn't DEI back then, though. This was before all that came around. They had a chapter, but it was a downlow chapter. They would meet off base. You know, they wouldn’t let – you had to be part of the group to know where to meet. They were that afraid. Toby Jenkins: So you began to organize in 2016? Michael James: Yep, something like that. Then we started coming out. Toby Jenkins: Did you have the support of American Airlines corporate? Michael James: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And HR personnel? Michael James: We had the entire Tulsa base behind us. Corporate down south was behind us. Of course, we had many other chapters that we had to share with. I was fortunate for the time that I was there to be able to be a proud $10,000 sponsorship for several years for our Pride. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so you said they had to share for other chapters. You mean other chapters at other cities in American Airlines? Michael James: Correct. Toby Jenkins: Or other affinity groups at the …? Michael James: No, it's that there are different pride chapters everywhere throughout the world.. Toby Jenkins: So you would network with all them and get ideas? Michael James: Yes, yeah. We would go down and have meetings and stuff. Toby Jenkins: Now, when you, did a group of you decide, did you find out American Airlines had this out there and you said, I want to do this? Or did y'all begin to meet and say, hey, we need to organize here? �17 Michael James: So I found out there was a group, and then I really wanted to become more involved. And this was the time that they started pushing the employee business resource groups at that time. So I'm like, sure, I'll step up. So took it from there, got it ... Toby Jenkins: So in the regular workforce, so the people you worked with, the other employees who were not gay, were they aware this group had formed? And was there any, I mean, if you went, if people went to it, was there people, I just assume that meant they automatically knew they were sexual? Because I know you had several straight allies involved. Michael James: Yes, yes. And there's that stigma once again. Yes, if you're part of a queer club, a gay club, whatever, straight alliance, gay alliance club, you're automatically gay no matter what. That was the biggest issue that I had. Unfortunately, a lot of the guys and the ladies and all those in between would come up and say, I appreciate you wearing that shirt to work. I couldn't do it. But you were online and married and everything else is about, so. Toby Jenkins: Ah. Interesting. So y'all had T-shirts that you could wear in the workplace that were American Airlines. Michael James: American branded, uh-huh. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So that let other people know. Yes. When you were wearing that Tshirt, did people come up? Hey, I'm gay, and did they not know about the group and they started coming into the group? Michael James: Nope, nope. It was, you know, I never, yes, I got people who wanted to come join the group. Nobody who actually came out, okay? Believe it or not, I, … there were more straight allies joined during my time than anything, so, yeah. And I really, they're still there for me. Toby Jenkins: So previously, American Airlines had been one of our big corporate sponsors of Tulsa Pride back in the early 2000s, and then when the economic downturn happened, we lost State Farm, Cox Cable, and American Airlines, and then when you got involved, you brought them back to the table in a big way. Michael James: So wasn't this before that? Toby Jenkins: Yeah, it would have been, this would have been the early 2000s, and then, you know, 2007 when we had the big, 2007, 2008, all corporate support went away. I mean, that's why we moved Pride from the park to here. We couldn't afford to have it over there anymore. But you brought them back to the table. Yes. Yeah. So, and how did you, where did y'all jump in? I mean, you not only brought them back as a Pride sponsor. Michael James: I jumped in, I mean, you know, I knew the Equality Center. I had been to Prides before. I had never been on the other side of that. Toby Jenkins: The organizing. �18 Michael James: You're correct, so our group, hey, let's get some community, you know, going here. So we started volunteering through the Equality Center when we did drag bingos to raise funds for our Pride Festival in January through May, you know? Toby Jenkins: Every year, we would, about 10 years ago, we started doing Pride bingos here at the center. Dale Hogan helped start that, and companies would buy tables or individuals, and. Michael James: And then we would come out, we would take and serve them. We would be behind the bar. We would have people coming out to their tables, making sure that they were full and happy and having a great time, and then. Toby Jenkins: And y'all would wear your American Airlines shirt. Michael James: Yes, sir, yep, yep. Toby Jenkins: So that people knew we had our volunteers running drinks. It was, … Michael James: We even, I think we brought some bar cart out here at one time and pushed it around. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, some bar cart like you see on the flights. Michael James: Flight attendant carts. We then started working, okay, well, if we can do this, you know, I know that there are other corporations out there that have these groups, you know? So we all started working together, and that's when we started getting Blue Cross Blue Shield to come in and all that stuff. Toby Jenkins: PSO. Michael James: Right, yep, yep, yep. Toby Jenkins: One Gas. Michael James: Uh huh. Yep, we had volunteers out at the wazoo, and it was fabulous. It was fabulous. Bingos would sell out. Toby Jenkins: Both rooms. Michael James: Yes. Yes. Yes. Toby Jenkins: And it helped us pay for Pride. Michael James: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Yes. So you created that, you recruited them and got them involved, and they were just wonderful volunteers. And then I know that you also, while you were at American Airlines, y’all began to do some diversity training, and you would invite us to come and do presentations. Michael James: Yes. If I recall, you'd come out and do how to be an ally. They did some youth training – abuse and stuff. There was also one, yes. �19 Toby Jenkins: I know we did a presentation on marriage equality. Didn't you serve on that panel? Mary Bishop-Baldwin: I don't recall. Toby Jenkins: But I know you had us come out and talk about why marriage mattered. Michael James: Yeah. Equality time. Yeah. Very well-attended events. Toby Jenkins: So you were helping with Pride Bingo, but then you also, I know American Airlines kind of stepped up with the Grateful Day Foundation and helped with their big fundraisers, too. Michael James: Correct. Yes. We would just do different portions of proceeds. I mean, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yes? Michael James: Yes. I don't know where else to go with that. Toby Jenkins: Another big spaghetti dinner every year, y'all. Michael James: So, no. We didn't really do, we did more for the Equality Center. Wasn't really more for Grateful Day. That was more of a personal thing on the Grateful Day side of it. So now, did my people take in, also come and volunteer at those events? Yes. I had my people from American and other organizations that did that as well. But yes, we go out and we volunteer for the awards dinner. Toby Jenkins: So tell us a little bit about how you got inspired to come up with the beverage carts, which were branded. We had an OkEq branded one, and then we had a, whatever the Pride logo was. Michael James: Yes, we did. There were two or three years that we were able to, our leadership donated flight attendant carts, and they would take and refurbish them. I would use the theme of that year's Pride to put – one year we did it on one side, I think. One side was Pride; one side was OKEQ. And then the next year, when we did the Tulsa to Oklahoma City theme, that wrapped all the way around the flight attendant cart. They would take exotic woods and carve them out to specific bottles, like crown bottles, glassware, ice bin, the whole lot, lights, remote control. We donated. Toby Jenkins: And we would sell these for $10,000. Michael James: Yes, at Gala. Toby Jenkins: People would go nuts. And I remember one year, he was with the chamber, and his partner was a flight attendant, and they bought that. His flight attendant partner asked, “Why in the world are you buying that?” He said, “Well, I thought it was neat,” and he said, “I have to deal with one of those all the time.” Gary Meadows and his partner bought one one year. �20 Michael James: And then, yeah, somebody bought one, and then we, they matched it but didn't want the cart or something like that. And then somebody donated on top of that. I mean, that year it was like $30,000. It was amazing. I mean, I was very proud. Toby Jenkins: And then American Airlines would sponsor a Gala table. Michael James: Yes, yes. Toby Jenkins: And they would sponsor Pride. Michael James: We'd sponsor bingos. Very, very great. Toby Jenkins: Because they would walk in, if I remember this correctly, you would keep a list of the people that volunteered, and then we would verify that, and then they, American Airlines, would match those volunteers? Or was that ConocoPhillips that I'm thinking of? Michael James: No, that’s ConocoPhillips. Dennis Neill: So, MJ, what is your thought about why that has changed so much? Where we lost all of these affinity groups, this corporate support. Toby Jenkins: Diversity. I mean, do you still have this at American Airlines? Michael James: So, it's tough to say. I don't know if we overdid things, you know? I mean, at the end of my tenure with the EBRG, our DEI group made me want to DIE. I mean, it was just shove it, you know. I get that, okay? But I don't, it's tough to say. Unfortunately, we had COVID that came around. Nobody wanted to be around anybody, and then you became that recluse, and how hard is it to get out of that, you know? So, and it's just a lot, it takes a lot to build back, and we're building back. Dennis Neill: You are building back? Michael James: We are building back. Dennis Neill: So the corporation isn't blocking you from building back? Michael James: No, they still have, they're called team member resource groups now. We no longer have a chapter in Tulsa, so we can't get sponsorship. However, I still have my management sponsor that we have a core group of people that still, to this day, we drive shuttles for Pride. They'll be the back of the thing so that people can walk behind and dance and just be themselves for Pride. So they, our local is still very involved, so. Toby Jenkins: So you're still in Pride, the Pride parade and all that? Michael James: Not since I've been bartending. Toby Jenkins: Oh, okay, all right. I was thinking I’d seen American Airlines in the parade. Michael James: So yes, we, yes, like I said, they bring up the rear of the parade. We've got music on the back. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: So you're saying American is still in the parade? �21 Michael James: American is still, yes. Me, I'm behind the bar. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and when he says bar, he means he's running the bar for Pride. Michael James: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: For thousands of people pouring and overseeing all the volunteers with that. Okay, I want to talk about, a little bit about you were involved with Friend for a Friend and tell kind of what that is and what you. Michael James: So when I got diagnosed, resources are there. One of the resources was an organization called A Friend for a Friend, and it was started by Alice Bates. And if I'm not mistaken, it was in her son's memory. Excuse me, he was diagnosed with HIV, and he had a dog, and “Who's gonna care for that poor dog?” she thought. So she started A Friend for a Friend. I used their resources, and then I actually started volunteering for the organization. Toby Jenkins: And so Friend for a Friend provided pet food, veterinarian care, helped out financially if there was some kind of issues associated with someone living with HIV/AIDS and they didn't have the resources to care for their pets. Michael James: Correct. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dennis Neill: In that, did you have a physical location, and did you have a paid staff person that ran the program, or is this all volunteers? Michael James: I was, to my knowledge, it was just all volunteers. And when I was delivering, we went and picked the dog food up from Alice's house. And then. Toby Jenkins: And you say as a client, you had benefited from it. Michael James: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you believed in it. Michael James: Yes. And then when Alice passed away, my best friend, Jason Eddingfield, was her right-hand person, and he took it over, and then we carried on. I was still volunteering with that. And unfortunately we lost all the other support when we lost Alice. So it had to go. Dennis Neill: So what year do you think that was? Michael James: It's only been, what, five years ago? Toby Jenkins: Less than five years. Dennis Neill: Because they had her service at Unity, right? Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Dennis Neill: And that's kind of when things stopped. �22 Michael James: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Well, nobody could tell Alice no. She would ask, but. So did you help with the big fundraisers they'd have here at the center where Al Triggs would cook carrot cake cupcakes? Michael James: Yes, yes, that's correct, yes. We would have our like fall meals, and Al would make his infamous carrot cupcakes and, oh my gosh. But yes, we would volunteer with that for Grateful Day Foundation for that. Toby Jenkins: So, yeah. Toby Jenkins: So just to talk about that, you said that you had been a client at one time. Toby Jenkins: So you had a pet, and obviously you were struggling financially and on disability taking care of you or however the rhyme went. Were there times that you were afraid you were going to have to give up your pet because …? Michael James: That wouldn't happen. Toby Jenkins: It wasn’t going to happen. Michael James: No, that wasn't going to happen. No. No. Ride or die. Toby Jenkins: But it meant a lot to you to know that this resource was available for you. Michael James: It did. It meant a lot that it was there for me, able to keep my security while I didn’t have my mother. Dennis Neill: So were you dealing with symptoms at this period of time? Michael James: No, no. I was dealing with drug and mental issues at that time. Dennis Neill: But you were on disability? Michael James: No. Dennis Neill: Okay. Michael James: No, I was on the Ryan White program. Dennis Neill: Okay. Sorry. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: And what did that provide for you? Michael James: That provided me, let's see here, doctors. Okay, that's where I – OSU. I got in on at OSU. Food, whatever. Toby Jenkins: Did they help with housing? Michael James: Housing, yes, and they helped with housing in the days. Toby Jenkins: Bus passes? �23 Dennis Neill: And this was all through the Tulsa Cares case worker? Michael James: Yes. Dennis Neill: And that's when they were on Admiral, I assume. Right? Michael James: Yes, correct. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever do anything with the Lambda Bowling League, which is the LGBT bowling league? Michael James: So, yes. Every year they would have a yearly bowling tournament. And when Grateful Day was around and Chuck Courtney, we would always go out to their big fundraiser and sell raffle tickets and donate our time there. So, got to meet lots of people, spread, you know, lots of people would ask about our group and stuff. And we'd sit down and tell them, and they’d … . Toby Jenkins: And in those days, the bowling league was huge. Michael James: Huge. I mean, it's at Sheridan Lanes. And, I mean, yeah, it's a good thing I didn't track my steps back then because... Toby Jenkins: Yeah, I'd say probably as many as 25 lanes. And there would be five to six team people in each. Michael James: Yep, and then you've got their people with them and so, yeah. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Once a week? Toby Jenkins: Yeah, every week. Michael James: Well, no, this was for their yearly bowling tournament, but yes, they would. Toby Jenkins: Oh, yeah, they had a huge tournament. Oh, yeah, it'd be bigger than that, yeah. And so, that helped them fund Grateful Day Foundation. So, tell us a little about Chuck Courtney. You've mentioned him. Michael James: Chuck Courtney. Toby Jenkins: And how did you meet him? Michael James: Oh, Chuck Courtney and I met somewhere out between Mounds and Kiefer. Back in the '80s, the late '80s, after I came back from the military. Went our ways, and then somehow or another we ended up connecting somehow. And it was like, bam, bada bing, bada boom. I got involved with Grateful Day at that point in time, like I said. Wonderful man, very knowledgeable. Toby Jenkins: You were roommates for a while. Michael James: Yes, yep, and we lived back-to-back. So, great guy. Like I said, he was part of one of the founders of Grateful Day. Just so much about him, you know. �24 Toby Jenkins: Yeah, he's just like you – a workhorse. He just was a doer. Michael James: You ask him a question. If he didn't know he was going to dig until he found out, yeah. Needed the shirt off your back, yeah, he'd give it to you. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: And you were both from Mounds. Michael James: He was from Kiefer. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Oh, he was from Kiefer. Michael James: Yep, and I was from Mounds. But remember, I had a Kiefer telephone number. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Yes, I understand that. Toby Jenkins: There's a legend here that people probably think is a legend, but we're going to tell the true story on the legend. So you and Chuck, and you all were involved, I guess, with Grateful Day Foundation, which eventually became Positively Grateful. But during that time, if I remember correctly, there was a group of people that wanted to do a documentary on HIV/AIDS in Tulsa, and I can’t remember the name of the people that were wanting to do that. And so they connected with Chuck, and Chuck was helping with that. Michael James: Chuck spearheaded that with them. Toby Jenkins: And so they wanted to do a story on Alice's Our House. She headed Our House, which was an HIV/AIDS resource house for people in the community and Friend for a Friend and all the work she had done. And during that time, there began to be questions about the AIDS quilts. And you all got involved in that. Michael James: Yes, yes. Chuck came to me one day and said, “Hey, break out the mystery machine. We're going to solve a mystery.” So, and he told me that the Center had received a call saying that they were missing quilts. We had help find them. Toby Jenkins: AIDS quilts. Michael James: AIDS quilts. Toby Jenkins: So when the Equality Center opened at this location at 621 East 4th Street, we were one of the few places in the United States that it was our permanent home that we were going to own. And it was very common for the NAMES project, which was based in Atlanta, they would allow LGBT community centers, resource centers, they would allow them to permanently display the quilts. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Certain panels. Toby Jenkins: Certain panels. Michael James: Right, and so there was an organization from there that was local. Toby Jenkins: Right. And we had a NAMES Project committee here, and so they reached out, and those individuals, who are no longer with us, got the quilts. All I know �25 is that from the day when we opened the building, we always had the AIDS quilts hanging on the wall, the original AIDS quilts that were Oklahoma specific, and we had at least four. So we had two, and we would take the others out for World AIDS Day. OSU sometimes would request them, sometimes Tulsa Care, All Souls would come and, you know. But we only had four that I knew of. Then when they decided to move the NAMES Project to the National AIDS Museum in San Francisco, they said all the AIDS quilts need to return to the NAMES project. And we went into this legal battle with them, because we kept saying we have the paperwork saying we could have these here on permanent display. And we kept telling – they said, you've got 10 quilts, and we said, we've got four. And so pick it up there. Michael James: So Chuck, being the guy he is, he picked it up and ran with it. I worked during the day, so I wasn't able to do a lot of stuff, but he would do a lot of the background work. We got to go into the Catholic archives and look in it. It was very, oh my gosh. Just the search. Go, go, go. Toby Jenkins: St. Joseph’s House. Michael James: Look, look, find this … . We'd go look. Finally, we found them at the 11th hour before, I can't remember what they said. They were going to charge us some outrageous amount. Toby Jenkins: They were going to sue us. Michael James: Yeah. And American Airlines helped pay cargo for those. Toby Jenkins: And you found them where? Michael James: We found them in... Toby Jenkins: Now, you checked multiple locations, Tulsa Cares, St. Jerome's. Michael James: St. Jerome's, OSU, because they had even borrowed it to hang from their, several locations. And we found them in the shed. And I can't remember – we said it. Toby Jenkins: Ray Chance. Michael James: Ray Chance's house. Still in a box. Very minimal damage, thank goodness. So we were able to bring them back here. Toby Jenkins: Weren't they buried under newspapers, like gay magazines? Michael James: Yeah, they were in a big. Yeah, they were buried, but there was a little bit of... Mary Bishop-Baldwin: How many were in the box? Michael James: Six. Toby Jenkins: Six. There were six. We had four, and they had six. Dennis Neill: What led you to Ray's location? �26 Michael James: So Chuck got a lead. Seriously. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: This should be a movie. Michael James: No, like I said, the mystery machine, you know? We were like, yeah, Scooby and Freddy or something. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: That’s amazing. Michael James: Brought them back here. And then at that point in time, we were able to do some high-resolution stuff, get the quilts back to the National Archives, and now we have local copies here. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Facsimiles, essentially. Full size. How did you do that? Michael James: With the talents of … Toby Jenkins: Jeremy Stevens and his partner Alan Mueggenberg, if I'm saying that right. Alan's company was able to create those, and so they paid for that, and then we were able to send them away. And we had a big ceremony that they would be, we told people, we had them on display and told people to come down and see them. Michael James: We had them right there in the Bruce Goff, World AIDS Day, if I'm not mistaken. Toby Jenkins: All of them, not just the... We've probably got video of that somewhere. And so I quit fighting with the National Names Project, and y'all paid to have them boxed up and mailed back. They're there, available. I mean, you can pull it up on their website. Yes. And we now have what are high-resolution facsimiles. Most people don't even realize they're not the original quilts. And we just recently found about one. We know we have four, but we found a third one. So I want to thank you and Chuck for doing that. That was a pretty historical event. Michael James: It was very interesting, learned a lot, and made me even want to get into it more so. Toby Jenkins: Now I know you were also involved in T.U.L.S.A., which is the Tulsa Uniform and Leather Seekers Association. Michael James: Correct. I was in that organization for a couple of years, started out as a pledge. How I got started was my friend, Richard Ziese, a former Mr. Tulsa Leather, and it was more of a fun thing to me. I didn't really fit the lifestyle, but the people were cool, you know, and it's just another form of drag, right? You put on your leathers and, you know, and they're an organization that go out and do fundraisers, okay, not only for themselves, but they'll join with other organizations and help fundraise for them as well. So they ended up disbanding as well, I think. Toby Jenkins: You used to meet here. Michael James: Yes, met here. �27 Toby Jenkins: You would have a room full of 30 or 40 people. Now, did you help with Richard when they did the leather archives? Michael James: Yes, that was when I was being initiated, and we were actually ribboncutting, and yeah, it was a very wonderful thing. Toby Jenkins: Thank you. So you know the details on the display case that has... Michael James: I know several of the people in there. Toby Jenkins: Okay, very good. That's helpful information. Because eventually it will move down here, right? And this area is going to be redone, and the library's ... Is it all right to say that? Dennis Neill: Uh huh. Toby Jenkins: It's going to be moved out there … Michael James: Oh, right on. Toby Jenkins: … to make it more accessible, and you know, we've got kind of a dead space. Used to, we had a computer lounge there, and we don't necessarily do that. And so the leather archives will eventually be here. Michael James: Right on. Okay, that's cool. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Along with other archives. Michael James: And then during that time... Toby Jenkins: So you and Richard were the ones that put all that together? Michael James: Yes, along with some of the other... Toby Jenkins: David Howell down in Florida, I think. Didn't he help some? Michael James: I think so. And then somewhere down the road, with Grateful Day, I got involved, not as a member, but working with the Imperial Court of all Oklahoma, as well. And we would, as the organization Grateful Day, we would go volunteer with them, help them raise funds. We were a... What am I looking for? At the end, they take in, they pay their, we're like a benefactor. We benefit the organization, so. And then, ever since then, I go every year for their coronation and volunteer as their bartender for their hospitality. Toby Jenkins: Tell our viewers a little bit what the Imperial Court is. Michael James: So, Imperial Court of All Oklahoma is, it's a court system all throughout the states. And they go around raising funds for different, they're another fundraising organization. That's really what I know about them. Toby Jenkins: So, they're modeled after the European court system. There's kings and queens and dukes and duchesses and princes and princesses and ... �28 Michael James: Tiaras. Toby Jenkins: We have Carolyn Wiley's interview. She was an empress. Michael James: She was, yes, like the main mama entry. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, yeah. So, we had her as part of our archives. Okay, I forgot about that. Anything else, Michael, that you, since you've just sit on your hands and you've not done anything for the last 15, anything else that you were involved in that we, well, you served on for years here on the advisory board. Michael James: Yes, I served for a couple years here on the advisory board. I volunteered, I've been a volunteer here for 10 years. I’ve managed the bar in the theater for three now. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And it's kind of seen a resurgence. Will you be helping this weekend with the Fringe Fest? Michael James: I'll be right here with two signature cocktails. Dennis Neill: So, MJ, of all of your activities that you participated in through these many years, what is kind of the high point that you can think of that has been so meaningful to you personally? Michael James: My high point is seeing our community benefit from some of the things that I can do. Whether it be getting them dog food, whether it be hanging with them for a weekend at a retreat, whether it be behind the bar making a cocktail. I just love our community. And that’s, yeah. Toby Jenkins: I know recently I've been able to attend a new thing that's happening in the Lynn Riggs Theater with Jason and Bill Nelson called Broadway Clubhouse, and that's capacity crowds. And are you enjoying, I know you just seem to be flying with the energy that you feed off of. Michael James: Oh my gosh. That's been an idea of Mr. Neill's for quite some time to bring something very similar to Marie's Crisis here to Tulsa. We started it. Unfortunately, that didn't work out, but we have two wonderful people who are in charge of it now, and I'll tell you what. I mean, being a former choir boy and just hearing all that, coming right, not at me, but just up, it's just the energy in the house and the energy that I feel when I'm here. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Show tunes. Michael James: And it's not just show tunes. I mean, come on, we do some Queen in there, too, right? Toby Jenkins: So we get together and we sing Broadway show tunes, and of course it'll be music that may have been featured in by musical artists or Disney shows. I mean, when you say Broadway shows, you don't realize how comprehensive and expansive that is. Michael James: Yeah, and jukebox jingles or something ... �29 Toby Jenkins: But I will tell you that the warmth and the friendliness and the excitement that you bring to those events, I know you're happiest when it's a packed house and people are enjoying themselves. Dennis Neill: MJ, you mentioned that when you were diagnosed and you lost that partner, because he couldn't deal, I guess, right, with your diagnosis. How about since then? Have you had some long-term relationships that have been meaningful to you? Michael James: Yes, Dale Hogan is really about the only other long-term relationship. It's been about seven years. We were together about seven years. We still remain friends. Sure wish I could get him to come back as Rainbow Granny, dang it. But... Toby Jenkins: So it can be a strain, a medical diagnosis for people, and some people just can't deal with it. They're not equipped. But that doesn't help somebody who's dealing with it. Yeah, I mean, and hopefully in the wellness retreats, y’all address some of that, probably. Michael James: Yes, yes. Toby Jenkins: Have some discussion groups. Toby Jenkins: Yes, we have. Michael James: For a, go ahead, I'm sorry. Michael James: We have panelists. We have a doctor that comes out. We have a... Toby Jenkins: Mental health provider. Michael James: Mental health. We have pharmacists, a pharmacologist that comes out. We even have, uh, wanding sessions. So like spirit, just wellness. You take wellness and go however. Toby Jenkins: You have chaplains sometimes. Michael James: Yeah, George is always there providing services. There's a labyrinth that takes you through a journey, you know. So very, yeah. Dennis Neill: So with the people you've been close to that have been dealing with HIV, and with all the new medications, have you still seen some people that we lose to the actual disease, or is it usually other complications? Michael James: It's always other complications, unfortunately. Dennis Neill: Do they have a relationship to their compromised systems? Michael James: Yeah, I could see some of them, but you know, not everybody's that. It's not that, you know, granted, okay, pneumonia. Okay, you can have pneumonia, but is it truly caused because of your HIV? You know, I mean, yeah. Dennis Neill: So we've seen a real sea change there, right, in the treatment and the longevity? �30 Michael James: Yeah, yes, yes. You know, I mean, I didn't think I would be here now, you know. I've, in the beginning, I had several medication changes, but I've only had probably two medication changes within the last 30 years, 25. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Do you attribute your longevity, the fact that you didn't die in those earlier days, to the timing of when you were diagnosed, because these drugs had come about then, or to what do you attribute this? Michael James: Have you met me? My hard head, okay? My stubbornness, my will to live, okay? I am not ready to die, okay? As y'all know, I got too much stuff to do. I almost said a bad word. Toby Jenkins: And obviously, you're not willing to sit on the sidelines. … World AIDS Day, have you ever participated in any of the World AIDS Day events? Michael James: World AIDS Day, we did with Grateful Day, and that we stuck, talked earlier, we took the quilts, we hung them from the ceiling in the Bruce Goff, and they kind of wrapped around, and people could walk through and see that. That's really about the only one that I, you know. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, well, we're trying to revive World AIDS Day. Michael James: Let's do it. Dennis Neill: It's going to be on Tuesday, this time, and we have been challenged by others, including you, to make sure that we have a real recognition of World AIDS Day, and so we hope that Mary and you and some others can kind of help lead this effort of pulling back the community that we used to have such a robust remembrance of World AIDS Day. Michael James: I'd be honored to, so. Toby Jenkins: Anything else from our interview panel? So usually we ask our guests, give you just a second to think about it, is there any message you want to give anybody who comes after you, maybe younger people or just people who review your interview, do you have a final message for them? Michael James: Man, amongst all the BS, don't lose yourself, and don't give in. Don't give in. Be that person to help make the world a better place. Toby Jenkins: It has been our distinct pleasure to interview Michael James, known in the community as MJ. Our interview panelists have been Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality; Mary Bishop Baldwin, the Marriage Equality Plaintiff, and Toby Jenkins. It is July 21st, 2026, and I believe it's now 101 degrees outside, but it's been a warm, warm experience. Thank you so much, Michael. Michael James: Thank you all. Look for me down in the bar. Remember, if the light's on, bring it on. If the light's off, back off. Dennis Neill: Ha, ha. Thank you, MJ. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Thank you, Michael. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Michael James Interview Subject The topic of the resource Michael James Oral History Project Interview from July 21, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Michael James, Toby Jenkins, Mary Bishop-Baldwin Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 21, 2026; July 24, 2026 Description An account of the resource In this in-depth interview, Michael James, known as MJ in the community, shares his journey living with HIV for nearly 30 years, his activism, and his extensive involvement in LGBTQ+ advocacy, community service, and HIV awareness initiatives in Tulsa. Discover inspiring stories, community efforts, and the importance of resilience and support. Interview conducted by Toby Jenkins and transcribed by Mary Bishop-Baldwin. 2026 activism advocacy AIDS Quilt AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV longterm survivors American Airlines coming out community fundraising Gay Bars healthcare HIV HIV Education HIV/AIDs interview Mary Bishop-Baldwin Michael James NAMES Project NAMES Project quilt Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Pride Rainbow Library Toby Jenkins transcript Tulsa Gay Bars video volunteers Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Prime Timers' Prime News Subject The topic of the resource Tulsa Area Prime Timers Newsletter "Prime News" Description An account of the resource 2 issues of Volume 33 of the "Prime News" monthly newsletter published by the Tulsa Area Primer Timers for 2026. It features prior meeting minutes and a calendar of events for each month. <strong>Available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tulsa Area Prime Timers Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2026 2026 2026 Gala available at Center Bob Blum calendar Dennis R. Neill Equality Center Equality Center gala Jeff Nguyen John Madigan Newsletter OkEq Equality Center OKEQ Gala OKEQ Seniors Prime Timers Primetimers Richard Lindsay Steven Dubois TAPT Tulsa Area Prime Timers Tulsa Area Prime Timers (TAPT) Tulsa Area Primetimers Warren Duvall https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e5058728974a0f195bd8900e5e7c92a9.jpg 200a294d14881d81dd06ce84750b1c0f https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/0dd0cb24915e78deb62c6fbaf1d3e07d.pdf 20d176b1914b1b1833c44428a7b6656c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert (Bob) Odle Oral History Interview - Feb. 19, 2026 Transcript PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Robert (Bob) Odle Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins (and Dennis Neill) Date: February 19, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, March 13, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Robert (Bob) Odle Summary This interview with Bob Odle offers a deep dive into his life as a gay man, theater professional, and community advocate. Covering his personal journey, the impact of historical events, and insights into Tulsa's cultural scene, it provides valuable lessons on resilience, identity, and activism. Keywords LGBTQ history, theater, Tulsa, activism, personal story, AIDS, gay community, cultural history Key Topics    Bob Odle's personal history and identity The impact of historical events like JFK's assassination and AIDS crisis The development of theater and LGBTQ community in Tulsa Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background of Bob Odle 02:57 Early Life and Education 05:59 College Experience and Sexual Orientation 08:58 Military Draft and Sexual Identity 2 �11:50 Teaching Career and Coming Out 14:47 Theater Involvement and Gay Community Connections 17:48 Reflections on the LGBTQ+ Experience 20:57 Teaching Philosophy and Curriculum Development 23:56 Theater Companies and Professional Acting 39:52 Theatre Roots and Early Involvement 41:12 Memorable Performances and Traditions 43:39 The Birth of World Action Singers 48:06 The Evolution of Theatre Spaces in Tulsa 53:00 Theater Community Support and Changes 56:39 The Lynn Riggs Theater and Community Engagement 01:02:33 Impact of the Pandemic on Theatre 01:05:27 Personal Loss and Community Involvement 01:08:20 Political Climate and Advocacy 01:10:58 Concerns for Arts and Rights 01:20:21 A Message for Future Generations Robert (Bob) Odle Oral History Interview Feb 19, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Today is February the 19th, 2026. We are at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in downtown Tulsa, Oklahoma, in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library, and we are doing archival work and interview today, and joining me for the interview is Amanda Thompson, our archivist and the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, Dennis Neill. This is Toby Jenkins. Today, viewers, we are very fortunate to have a very special guest. Tell us your name and your date of birth and your address. Bob Odle: Bob Odle, Robert Odle. Date of birth is May 15th, 1945. Bob Odle: My address is XXX in Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: Thank you so much. We're here today, and I want us to tell...you've had such an interesting life, and I want to make sure we get everything, and we appreciate our viewers' interest in this, and so this is...we're going to give you some history that you might have a little trouble finding, so we're going to put it in one place where our viewers can find this information. Do you want me to call you Bob or Robert? Bob Odle: Bob. Everybody calls me Bob, except my sixth-grade art teacher. Toby Jenkins: What are your pronouns? How do you identify your gender? Bob Odle: Mr. He. Toby Jenkins: So, you identify as male? Bob Odle: Yes. 3 �Toby Jenkins: Okay, and could you just, for our time together, we're gonna...how do you identify in your sexual orientation, your...how do you identify? Bob Odle: Well, I'm queer as a $3 bill. Toby Jenkins: Okay, good. So, it's good to know, and for our historical people, that was a phrase we used a lot when we were growing up as kids. Bob Odle: Well, I just heard about the origin of the $3 bill just within the past week. During this Civil War, some of the southern states, as I recall, didn't have really enough gold, and so they issued those $3 bills, or maybe it was the American Revolution. I don't remember, but it was some revolutionaries, and they issued worthless money, and it was $3 bills. Toby Jenkins: So, that's why we have it. That's why they always used it on us. Where were you born? Bob Odle: I was born in Kansas City, Missouri. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Bob Odle: Research Hospital. Toby Jenkins: Is your family from Kansas City, Missouri? Bob Odle: Most of my...the Bell side of the family is from Missouri. My four-times greatgrandmother came to Missouri with Daniel and Nathan Boone. Nathan Boone is buried not far from where she's buried, and so most of my relatives are there. The...and the Rileys are there, once they came to this country. The Odles are scattered around western part of Virginia. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Now, when you say she's buried up in Missouri, is she buried near Boone's Lick? (Editor’s note Boone's Lick is the historical site where Daniel Boone’s sons settled around Franklin Missouri.) Bob Odle: Oh, no, that's much farther north. Nathan Boone is much closer to Springfield, and it's a little country cemetery that is largely a family cemetery. I mean, I'm related by blood or marriage to most of the people who are in that cemetery, so she's buried there where the other Bells and the Rileys are. Toby Jenkins: And so you were...your family was in Kansas City at this time, or...? Bob Odle: Yes, they had moved...my grandmother and grandfather had moved to Kansas City, and I think most of my...all of my aunts and uncles were born in Kansas City, and my mother was born there, and...and so that's...that's where I was born. Toby Jenkins: Now, did you grow up there? I mean, was that what you spent your childhood? Bob Odle: Yes. I went to Munger Elementary School, which was named after a farmer who donated that land to the school district, and it was a little eight-room, four downstairs and four 4 �upstairs schoolhouse with a prefab outside for the 7th and 8th grades, and 6th and 7th grades. And so I went to Munger for the first three years, and then North Kansas City had a bond issue, and they built some new schools because that area of Kansas City was growing. They built right across the street from Munger, they built Oak Ridge and just a few blocks from us they built Maplewood. I went to Maplewood for the fourth and fifth grades and then my mother remarried and we moved to Tulsa, Oklahoma where I went to Luther Burbank for one year. TPS has recently sold that building. And then I went to Bell Junior High for two and a half years and then we moved over to 27th Street and I finished the ninth grade and went through high school at Nathan Hale and then got a scholarship to the University of Tulsa. I applied various places but TU gave me a scholarship that paid half of my tuition which was $600 a year. Toby Jenkins: And what year would that have been that you graduated? Bob Odle: I graduated from Nathan Hale in 63 and from TU in 67. Toby Jenkins: And how new was Nathan Hale? Was it a pretty new high school? Bob Odle: It was brand new that first year I went there. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember what your graduating class, how many were in your graduating class? Bob Odle: I contend there were 450 but some people, some members of my class say there were fewer than that. I don't know, I haven't counted the pictures in the yearbook. I keep thinking I must do that and I haven't. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, by the 70s it was up in the 2000s. Bob Odle: Yes, they added a wing. Toby Jenkins: But I think today Nathan Hale's graduating class is about 200. Bob Odle: Well, yeah, they added classrooms to the building. Quite a few classrooms after I graduated. Toby Jenkins: So was your family glad that you were going to school in Tulsa instead of getting accepted someplace else? Bob Odle: Well, they were glad I got a scholarship which was $300 which paid half of my tuition. And my books altogether, my books cost less than $100. Toby Jenkins: I don't think I ever paid $100. What did you study at TU? Bob Odle: I was a theater major. Toby Jenkins: And so this would have been in 1963 when you graduated. What was going on in our country at that time? I mean this was shortly after Kennedy had been assassinated. 5 �Bob Odle: No, it was when he was assassinated. That was a sad day that I remember that day. And the several days afterwards when we had no commercial TV. And Channel 2 played Handel's Largo during all of the station breaks. And we went until Monday after the funeral with no commercials on TV. And 24-hour coverage of the funeral and people visiting the White House and the Capitol. Toby Jenkins: Were you in school when y'all heard this news? Bob Odle: It was just my first time at the Baptist Student Union. They should have told me never to go back. My first time there and I went to class and a friend of mine who had a little portable radio said the president has been shot. And what's he talking about? He's crazy. And then it was during that class, I had humanities at 1 o'clock. It was during that class then that it was announced that the president was dead. I gave a friend a ride home and we listened to the radio. And the radio was covering the funeral and the death of the president. Toby Jenkins: And this would have been your freshman year? Bob Odle: It was my freshman year, yeah. It was a sad day. It was a sad several days. Couldn't believe that in the 20th century a president would be assassinated. I just couldn't believe that. Toby Jenkins: What were you studying at TU? Bob Odle: I was majoring in theater. I had a minor in English lit and a minor in education so I could get my teaching certificate. It was then, and I didn't know this until, I was so naive. I'm incredibly naive, even now. I heard after the first show that the person who played the lead and some other people were gay and, what? And so, later, I think the person who told me that had the hots for me for years. I think I later found out more and more people in the theater department, which is where I hung out, were gay and, oh, okay, I didn't know that. I had no idea. Toby Jenkins: Did you understand what that meant? Bob Odle: Oh yeah, I understood what it meant, but I just didn't know that they were gay and that there were so many. Toby Jenkins: So you were like in Gay Head Start, the theater department at TU. Did you, had you by that time, I mean, by then you're 18, adult, and you're a young male college student. Had you begin to realize about your own sexual orientation or was it? Bob Odle: Yeah, I went through a period, and I think it's not unusual, of denial. And, let's see, I was molested when I was like 12 years old, and I didn't know, I just, I didn't know anything about that. I just, it was when I was 15, I finally said, no, I don't want to do that anymore. Well, I didn't want to do it with somebody older, I wanted to do it with some of my classmates. And I remember when I was like in the seventh grade at Bell, the day we all suited up in our white tshirts and our white gym shorts and our white tennis shoes. And I walked, there were these other boys, and whoa, wow, I mean, this thrill went through me. Whoa, whoa. And so... 6 �Toby Jenkins: So you're in college, and you're in this program, and I guess it was gossip people were talking about people being gay. Bob Odle: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Was it in college that you began to, I mean, did you have a relationship with another student, a person, or? Bob Odle: No, not really, but there was one person who was in my English class who I had seen go to the, it was the Baptist student union, that was the reason I went that one day, and I went back subsequently. I did have the hots for him, and it was, he dropped out of school, I think, after the first semester of our freshman year. And in the past year or so have found out, I suspect he was killed in Vietnam. I suspect he joined the army, that school wasn't really for him. And when he didn't show up at any of our classes, and he was no longer on campus, I did feel like my heart was broken. I mean, I really had a crush on him. Toby Jenkins: So when he left school, I mean, you didn't know where he went, and so did you quit going to the Baptist Student Union after that? Bob Odle: No, I continued to go because I knew some other people who were there. Toby Jenkins: What was TU like in those days, in the 60s? Bob Odle: We had to wear our freshman beanies for the first six weeks. I still have mine somewhere, I tried to find it for the 50th anniversary, that's when I, oh no, this was 50 years after graduation. It was red, alternate red and yellow panels with a red 67 in the front panel, and we had to wear those for the first six weeks, I mean, that was the rule. We had to go to orientation like once a week. We had to take six hours of religion. I took Old Testament history and origin and principles of Christianity. Bob Odle: Later, they reorganized and we didn't have to take any religion, and I'd already taken six hours, and so we had to go to chapel, I don't know, maybe once at least…. Toby Jenkins: A week, once a week, or once a semester? Bob Odle: No, I think once in the first six weeks. The class of 68 had blue beanies with yellow 68 on the front. That was the last class, I think, that had to wear beanies. Toby Jenkins: About how many students do you think were at TU at that time? Bob Odle: I think they've held steady at about 4,000 to 5,000. Toby Jenkins: And so that would have been at the time when Tulsa was the oil capital of the world and TU was known as the top geology, or what am I saying? Petroleum engineer. Yeah, petroleum engineer. 7 �Bob Odle: There was one guy in the theater department who was from Egypt and he was in theater, but he, I think, came for petroleum engineering, which is why a lot of people were there from other states. Toby Jenkins: So you talked about the military and the Vietnam War. Tell us about that. Were there lots of students who were leaving? Bob Odle: I was not aware of any at that time because I graduated in 67, so the buildup, I think, started in 65, but I was not... We had student deferments as long as we were in school. Toby Jenkins: Were you in the military? Bob Odle: No, never. They didn't want me because I was gay. Toby Jenkins: You remember your draft number? Were you subject to a potential call-up? Bob Odle: I don't remember that. That's been so long ago. Toby Jenkins: So they didn't want you because you were gay. Tell us about that. I mean, by then, you were acknowledging…? Bob Odle: Well, I remember they had me come in and talk. There was a sergeant who was in charge of all of the physical examination and whatnot and he had me talk to a captain who asked me if I was sure I was gay, if I was just saying that. He said, I've always remembered, he said, you know this will go on your permanent record. Toby Jenkins: So you actually had to fill out a form that said that? Bob Odle: Yes. That was when... It was like an alumni meeting. All the guys I knew from high school were on the same bus, and some friends from junior high who went to Will Rogers were on the same bus going to Oklahoma City. That was part of what we did that day, was we had to sit down and fill out these forms about what diseases we'd had and if we had homosexual tendencies. So we had to actually fill out a form. Toby Jenkins: You felt like you needed to be honest? Bob Odle: Well, yeah, because I was going to go to law school, and I did go to law school for a while. So I thought, well, I can't lie on this. I think there was a small print that said it was a federal crime or something, and so I didn't want to lie. Toby Jenkins: So the captain tried to talk you out of it, is what you're saying? Bob Odle: He wanted to make sure that I wasn't just... Because a friend of mine said, I remember a party and he was talking about how... He had a high lottery number, so he wasn't chosen, but he said he had the choice of going to Canada or he could queer out. So apparently there were other people who were signing, yeah, they were gay. They had homosexual tendencies or whatever the wording changed to, and so apparently they had encountered that before, people lying about being gay. 8 �Toby Jenkins: This is fascinating to me. I don't know that I've ever had anybody talk about this. I don't know if I've ever interviewed somebody and them talk about the details of that and the possibility that the military wanted to make sure you weren't just using something. So I'm just curious, were you in a room with several people when you were asked this, or was it more of a private discussion? Bob Odle: Well, there was a big classroom with student desks for us to fill out the form, but then the sergeant... I was in a room, an office with the sergeant and a couple other non-coms. He said it would be better to get rid of me then than to go ahead and have me sworn in and have me booted out of the military for being gay. But he decided for some odd reason to have me talk to this, I guess, doctor who was a captain. I mean, I have no idea. They just know he was a captain and they sent me into his office for him to question me about that. Toby Jenkins: So you were able to avoid military service. Do you remember, I mean, you were a college student during these days. I don't know necessarily when… Bob Odle: Well, this was after I graduated that I got that. And it was after I'd taught for a year, too. But teachers had deferments. I mean, I was originally taken after I graduated with this busload of alumni, people I'd known in high school. And then the school board, I got a job teaching and the school board appealed that. And they had just gotten this draft board… I went before these old men. Toby Jenkins: Where were you teaching? Bob Odle: At Central High School, which was downtown. Toby Jenkins: The major campus that's still down there today. Bob Odle: Yeah, PSO owns it now, and AEP. And they had gotten something from Washington that they should give teachers who were teaching deferments or something like that. But I was drafted in the meantime. And so the public schools protested. But it wasn't that I got out of the military. The military didn't want me. Toby Jenkins: Very, very interesting. So well said. Bob Odle: Well, I know of other gay people who've had military experience. Well, and I have one friend who used to live in Tulsa, who lives somewhere in Dallas, I think, now. He was booted out of the Navy and was not happy with being booted out. I mean, there are a lot of gays who want to serve their country and be in the military. But we were not allowed to. And those who were drafted—and I have a friend who was investigated by the Naval Intelligence for a while. They trailed him. And I don't know if he was court-martialed or not. He stayed in the Navy for years and retired as a lieutenant commander. Some of his friends at his funeral said he would have been a commander had there not been that investigation. But he would sometimes go into bathhouses in San Diego or San Francisco in order to have the people who were tailing him leave him alone. 9 �Toby Jenkins: To make them have to follow him in there? Bob Odle: They wouldn't follow him in there. Toby Jenkins: So you said you finished TU and then you started teaching. Bob Odle: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And you had to get a teacher's certificate. Now, I'm just curious, you're teaching—what did you teach at Central High School? Bob Odle: Competitive speech and drama. Toby Jenkins: So you would have probably been my instructor because that's the kind of stuff I was in in high school. So you were teaching…This would have had you probably 21, 22? Bob Odle: I was just barely 22 when I started teaching. And I taught for four years. My goal was to teach for four years, save some money, and go to law school full-time. I went to law school part-time, but I quit to go full-time, and that was about the time we started doing theater. And I thought, well really, I'd rather be an actor than be an attorney. And so I dropped out of law school. My mother was not happy with it. She got over that eventually. Toby Jenkins: So you're a young adult. Had you begun to have romantic relationships with men, or had you connected to the gay community? I mean, you were teaching school. Bob Odle: Well, I had a lot of friends who, being in theater, I had a lot of friends who were gay, and pretty much openly gay. And so, you know, I would think about that, you know. And eventually, after I was doing theater, and eventually, after years went by, because I was in a state of denial. I mean, I lived with a woman for a while. And... But it was because I was in a state of denial, which is not uncommon, I think, and so eventually when we broke up, because it was not destined to be, she lives with her second husband in South Carolina, I think, and I contact her periodically, or she contacts me. But I didn't really have, I still was so closeted. A lot of people probably knew, but it was sometime then, sometime around 1980, I think, that is after we moved into the Brook Theater in 79, it was about 1980 that I decided to go to, well I had been to, I mentioned this at the breakfast the other day, I had been to Saddle Tramps in Oklahoma City years before. I had no idea it was a gay bar. I mean, when I was, I had done Tea House of the August Moon in Tulsa, and then I was asked to join the touring company in Oklahoma City. So I went down to Oklahoma City, and friends put me on a bus, and I went down there, and I saw this limousine parked across from the bus station, and I thought, well it'd be neat if that was for me. It was! The owner of the theater had a huge Cadillac limousine, and I mean the big, stretched thing, and so he took me to the theater, and there were a couple of people in that play, that were in that cast, that were gay. And then I did another tour, and I think some people were gay, and then a lot of people I knew from the theater were gay. 10 �And a friend moved back for a short time to help us open The Brook, I think, with his boyfriend from New York, and they lived together. And so all of this was like, you know, making an impression on me. And so finally in about 1980, well I was going to tell you about Saddle Tramps. The manager of the Gaslight, we were dark on Monday nights, and so one Monday night, and every other Monday we got paid. And so it was a Monday we got paid, and so we all decided to go to dinner, and we went to the Haunted House, which you have to have reservations before they will tell you the address. It's a fabulous old mansion somewhere in northeast Oklahoma City, and they had fabulous food. And so we went there, and those who didn't have cars, because some people had their own cars, but I'd left mine, I'd taken the bus to Oklahoma City. I was in the manager's limousine with some other people, who I think back, I think at least two of them were gay, maybe three of them were gay. And so we went to the manager's house for a little while, and he lived somewhere in northeast Oklahoma City, and not far from the theater as I recall. But anyway, then we went to a bar. He decided, let's go to a bar. So well, I know the bar we'll go to, and we'll go to this bar. Well, it was Saddle Tramps. I didn't know. And it was a Monday night, so nobody was there except us and maybe a couple other people and the bartender. And I went in to use the restroom at one point, and there was a toilet sitting right in the middle of the floor, and there was a bathtub also there. And this is strange. And so I went out and I told the others, you've got to see that restroom. And so that was the first time. Then later on, somehow a friend of a good friend of mine who had been a colleague in teaching and who'd lived just two doors down from when we first moved to Tulsa, her friend was doing drag for the first time at a place called, I think, the Stage Door on Main. And so a group of us went to see him do drag for the first time, and he was not very good, but there was this person in a mini skirt, a mini dress that had flowers on it, and a bouffant wig, who did Harper Valley PTA, was fabulous. And so that was my first time. So later then, I decided to go to a gay bar, and I went to one called, I think, Caruso's, also on Main, maybe a little bit south of where Stage Door had by that time, I think, become a parking lot, as much of downtown Tulsa is. I went to Caruso's, and I went there a few times, and then I decided to branch out and try some others. And I'd heard of people going to Oklahoma City and staying at what was then called the Pepper Tree, it was the Habana, and now it's a different name, and why it's not the Habana, because it's been Habana since it opened in the 1960s. Because I went there as a school teacher, we had our speech convention at the Habana when it was a Best Western. And little did I know that right next door was Saddle Tramps. And because I had, you know, it was dark, and I was being toted around in this limousine, had no idea where I was or what was going on. And so, I heard of people going there, and so I went down there, and I discovered all of the bars in the hotel and on the Strip. And... Toby Jenkins: So during this time, I know you were an actor in the theater companies, and obviously a professional actor, you were being paid. Were you still teaching at this time? 11 �Bob Odle: No, I went back to teaching after, in 1990, I believe. I worked in theater and doing workshops in schools all over the state. And I went back to teaching. A friend of mine, because the oil companies who had given us money had moved to Houston, so they could be hit by hurricanes and flooded by hurricanes. And so a friend of mine suggested, why don't you go back and get your teaching certificate? So at his urging, I did. And so I got a job teaching. I deducted my trips to Oklahoma City for our annual convention for my income tax, because the motel, I had to have a motel while I was down there. I deducted that for my income tax. I went down there and I would always stay at the Habana, and then there were all those bars right there. Toby Jenkins: So I know that was the gay district still, I guess, today is considered that. So during this time, had you ever come out as openly gay to your other theater friends and folks? I mean, had you pretty well, you said about 1979 was when you began to connect to the gay community. Had you told other people that you were gay? Bob Odle: No, not until the friend who'd come here for the opening of The Brook went back to New York, and he'd come back Christmas to be with his parents. And so after a show, I said, why don't we go to a bar? I know a bar at 18th and Main. So we went to Renegades. And then later we went to Tim's Playroom at 11th and Lewis. And that was the most fun. That was a fun bar. Then, later in the 80s, I went to New Orleans and discovered just about all the bars in the French Quarter and some in the Marigny, and met a person who had been a student at Central High School when I was a teacher there. We went to see a play over at the Marigny Theater, which is connected with a bar and around the corner from some other bars. He died, oh, it's been several years ago, and he had heart problems. He was very intelligent, talented, and so I started making sometimes four trips per year to New Orleans. Certainly, I've gone there every year for about 30 years. When the bathhouse closed down there, I went into mourning for two years. I thought about, should I leave a bouquet of condoms and lube outside the front door? Because people leave bouquets of things. I mean, I was like, I miss that. That was a fun bathhouse. After Katrina, it was a member of the club baths, and I had a club card, and they were good at the club baths all over the country. I went to some of the others, and they were not as good as the Club New Orleans. Toby Jenkins: Were you teaching during this time? Bob Odle: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Were you able to be openly gay? In the early days when you got the deferment, I know the school board was addressing their teacher's deferments. Did anybody at your school know that you had got a deferment because you told them you were gay? Bob Odle: No. 12 �Toby Jenkins: Okay. Then while you were teaching here in Oklahoma, were you openly gay? I mean, did your students know you were gay? Did your principal, your ... Bob Odle: No, not that I know of. I think some suspected, but nobody really cared. I was there to teach speech, and I was focused on that. That was my job, and I was focused on doing that, and I also had a humanities class, and I was focused on spreading this notion of the arts, all of the arts, through the ages. I put together a thing on humanities for the first two years myself until ... It took two years before I found a book that also covered Asia, because of my philosophy that we're too Eurocentric, and kids needed to know. I sandwiched into a short period of time 6,000 years of Chinese and Japanese and Indian Middle Eastern art, which is not doing it ... I mean, that should have been a separate class, but it wasn't, and so I wanted kids exposed to that. Toby Jenkins: So that was curriculum? You were writing curriculum for that? Bob Odle: Yes, I did. Toby Jenkins: Okay. What theater companies were you involved in? You talked about you were a paid actor. Bob Odle: Yeah, I worked with American Theater Company for years, and also during some down times when we didn't do many shows, I also worked with Gaslight. Toby Jenkins: Okay. How long were you involved with American Theater Company? Bob Odle: From its inception in 1970 until ... Well, I did a show 2006, 2008. For four years in a row, we did the Rocky Horror Show, the original stage musical, which is much better than the movie. I frequently think that is the case, that things on stage don't translate to film. Toby Jenkins: Live theater is better. Bob Odle: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So how many years would that have been with American Theater Company? Forty? Bob Odle: Well, man. Bob Odle: 70 to almost, yeah, almost 40, 37 or so, I worked. I was on the board after that, for some time after that, but I was just too busy to do shows. And so, you know, but I was still affiliated with the theater, but I've not been on the board for like three years now. Toby Jenkins: What performances were you in, what shows? Bob Odle: Well, on my tombstone, which I have already bought, and it is, although I intend to be cremated and have my ashes scattered, my tombstone, which is next to my mother and stepfathers, and near my grandparents and great-grandparents and so on and so forth, yeah, that's Karl Krauss as Ebenezer Scrooge. And Karl has played that role for years and years. And 13 �so, you know, that's me as Brother Oral Love. That's one of the things on my tombstone. I had Robert, I think Robert Leonard Odle, because I'm named after both of my grandfathers. That was a thing in my family for a while after both grandfathers or grandmothers. And so I have Brother Love and Tartuffe, Captain Hook, and there's one other that I keep forgetting, but it's one of my favorite roles I ever played. But those are three of the ones. Toby Jenkins: So I know Christmas, Carol, is kind of like a Christmas tradition. Bob Odle: I know, I never, the second year we did it, one of the reviewers for one of the Tulsa papers said, this needs to be a tradition. And I thought, and well, it has become that. This is, I mean, this fall will be 50 years since Rick and I wrote that. Toby Jenkins: Well, I'll just let you know whether you are surprised that it became a tradition. In my family, I took my children to see it, and now I have grandchildren, and all of us have made it a part of our Christmas tradition. We don't go every year, but we've been multiple times. Bob Odle: I go every year. I mean, I love that story. It's a great story about giving. Dennis Neill: We spent a little more time talking about Joyce Martel and the Oral Action Singers, how that originated and your role in it and the longevity of that show. And did ATC actually own the Brook at that point in time? Bob Odle: No, we rented it or leased it, I don't remember which. But, well, Jerry Pope and Rick Averill and I, Rick always wrote the music. Jerry and I would, he would write one scene, I would write another scene and so on until we wrote the play. And it's about, it was essentially about balanced growth in Tulsa and the reason we didn't have balanced growth. And we did some stereotypical characters. And one was this religious figure, which we called in that musical, Seth Righteous. And so that sort of began it. Then a year later at Cain's, we opened and ran a month with Joyce Martel is Alive and Well and Living in Paris, Texas. I think that title was based on something that was on T, Jacques Brel is Alive and Well and Living in Paris or something. Anyway, so, but we decided not to call it Seth Righteous, to call it Oral Love because of the combination of the double entendre there with Oral Roberts out South and, you know, and the act of sex. And so we did that at the Cain's for a month and then they decided we were too bawdy for Cain's. That was when the people who had Cain's at the time were having people do the alligator and people were actually having sex in the audience. But we were too bawdy for them. So we moved to the Inferno, which is now the location of a car wash on South Peoria. The Inferno had a big sign outside that said topless lunch from 11 until seven. It was a long lunch. You would eat a lot of food. And we went in there and, like the first day we went in there, one of the dancers named Snowball grabbed me by the crotch and led me into the bar. So we did it there for a couple of months. Then we moved to Captain's Cabin, which was at 41st and Memorial. It's where Richard De La Fonte, a hypnotist, was working most nights and he had the prime weekend nights. Then we closed the show because we were going on the first of our summer tours. 14 �We talked about it during that summer tour and we came back and performed on the roof of the Mayo parking garage for a month- the coldest September on record, I think, and then the hottest day in October- we moved to the ballroom inside upstairs and we had this huge box that was two 4x8 sheets of plywood with about that much wood in between the shelves and all of our props and some of our costumes, and it wouldn't fit in the elevator shaft. So we had to take it to the freight elevator and we had to ride up on top of the freight elevator. We had to take it down to the basement, move the thing in on top of the freight elevator, take the freight elevator up to the floor below the ballroom and open the doors and move the thing out. It was a nightmare. Dennis Neill: So, Bob, this is all in the early 80s, right? Bob Odle: This is 75. Dennis Neill: Oh, okay, so now, which show are you talking about right now? Bob Odle: Joyce Martel. Dennis Neill: I saw it when I moved to Tulsa and I moved here in 77. Bob Odle: That was, oh well, we did the best of Joyce Martel in 76. And then in 77 we were at the Crest Club at the Mayo. We did some shows in the crystal ballroom, some shows we did downstairs in theToby Jenkins : Do you remember where you saw it? Dennis Neill: I thought I saw it at the Brook, but I could be wrong about that, correct? Bob Odle: Yeah, we didn't open that. 61579, that was the code on the security, the security system. Dennis Neill: I remember you and the flaming Bible, right? Bob Odle: Yeah, well, I used that for a long time. Dennis Neill: Okay, maybe it was another show. Bob Odle: We did the best of Joyce Martel, and then we closed that. And then in 77, well, we did some shows in the Pompeian Room, which is an artificial room they put because it was a two-story lobby, but they put a floor in and had this large meeting room called the Pompeian Room and it had Roman murals all around. It was horrible. Dennis Neill: So any pushback from Oral Roberts and the university with regard to the action singers? Bob Odle: Well, not then so much. We moved to the Brook, we continued, we did the Crest Club- and I don't remember what that show was called- right offhand. Then we got this deal with the Brook and we moved in there and we converted it from a movie house to a legitimate 15 �theater and we opened in June of 79 with huge, gigantic those spotlights on Peoria and drew a lot of attention. We had the marquee out front and some friends who had seen the show were friends with a man who made all of Oral Roberts' trinkets that he gave away for a donation and he had a pretty large house out south and it was his 50th birthday and they had happy 50th birthday up on the roof in big letters, eight feet tall. I mean they were huge letters- and so they decided he had all this money and he had everything he wanted, so they would give him something he wouldn't normally get, and so they gave him Brother Oral Love as his birthday, as entertainment for his birthday party, and there was a big crowd there. Some of the provosts of ORU was there and there were some other ORU people there and there were some of the people in the audience who just loved what I was doing. There were some who stood stony faced. Then one year, I don't remember what we renamed the show, we did a new show every year, which was a nightmare to write. But we did a show and I thought, okay, I'm going to write this sermon this year. What would I do if I were totally corrupt? And, you know, so, you know, like Jesus spent time in the desert. Well, I owned a house in Palm Springs. And because that's in the desert. And I had a Mercedes-Benz because there's a Janis Joplin song, Oh Lord, won't you give me a Mercedes-Benz. So I always ended with that. And the thing is that summer, Shoals, Jerry Shoals, I think his name is, published his book about Oral Roberts, the time he had worked for Oral Roberts. And it turned out he did have a Mercedes. He did drive a Mercedes. And he did own a house in Palm Springs. I mean, the stuff, if I were totally corrupt, this is what I would write. This is what I would do. Well, it turned out that was real life. And so Shoals came to see the show at least once. And he was tailed. They had people watching his every movement. Whether Oral actually knew about it or not, I don't know. But some of the people at the university did know what I was doing. But I got paid, so who cares. Toby Jenkins: So during this time, all these years, I assume you were teaching also but still doing theater. Bob Odle: No, at that time I was just doing theater. I had no time. Toby Jenkins: Was the theater community, live theater in Tulsa, did people attend the performances? Did it have lots of support? Bob Odle: We seated 750. That was what the fire marshal would allow in the building. We had lines that went from the box office around the corner and back to the alley, which is where our stage door was. I mean, we could stand and talk before the show to people who were going to see the show, maybe if they got in. Because we only seated 750. Dennis Neill: Those were the good old days. Those were great shows. Bob Odle: They were. 16 �Toby Jenkins: So looking back during those days and presently, is there still a lot of support in Tulsa for live theater? Bob Odle: I think so. I think Theater Tulsa is having, some part of it is the rent at the PAC. And Theater Tulsa has opened their place where I'm going tomorrow night and Saturday night, 55th and Peoria. It's a converted Dollar General store. And there are a lot of little splinter groups that do stuff. American Theater Company, I don't know. I mean, we always did five shows and we did a summer show. And at times we had like two or three shows running simultaneously. When we had Joyce running at the Mayo and Christmas Carol running at the PAC or whatnot. And some other times we did multiple shows at the same time. Because we had 25 people on our staff, full-time, paid. And others working part-time. Toby Jenkins: Who were cast members or writers, producers? Bob Odle: Musicians, concessions, bar workers, so on. Sometimes people in plays. But we had a staff of technicians and actors of like 25. Toby Jenkins: So here at the Equality Center, when we did our renovation about eight years ago, we felt like in our community we were having lots of theater groups that were showing an interest. And especially in our gay community, the queer community, about their interest in theater. One of the passions of some of our folks was that we convert a space into a theater space that could be used for the community, especially to make it accessible for people who wanted to do productions that might not have, you know, they might be cutting edge and be kind of outside of the standard stories to make sure that certainly queer theater had access to those theaters. And of course, it's named after Lynn Riggs, who wrote the story that became the Broadway musical, Oklahoma. Your thoughts about the Lynn Riggs Theater here at the Equality Center and the space and things like that. Bob Odle: Well, I love it. I think it's great. In fact, I was urging American Theater Company, we eventually moved, the Harwells bought the building at 308 South Lansing. And I always said this is a better place because there are posts there and I just like the Lynn Riggs better. I've seen some plays here. I've been to a lot of the Thursday night things and I like this venue. I think it's real neat. American Theater Company went from five shows down to last year, they did four shows. This year, they originally promoted three shows, but they eventually cut that back to one, Christmas Carol. And they do stand up comedy one night. They do, I think they have some drag shows out there. Occasionally, I mean, you know, it's not like the five show season that we used to market and then sometimes a tour or something special during the summer, it's not like that. I think that Christmas Carol hasn't drawn the past couple of years what it used to draw because the people who are managing the theater now determined that Christmas Carol is a tradition. So it doesn't need to be marketed. Well, they still market the Nutcracker. They still market other traditions. It needs to be marketed, people need to know. It needs to not be a secret production. I'm getting off on to my axe to grind. 17 �Toby Jenkins: Where all have you taught school? Dennis Neill: Well, TCC West and TCC North. English, comp. Toby Jenkins: No theater production or? Bob Odle: Well, I did have an acting class one semester and then that got to be a fiasco. It had to do with the management. I don't want to say anything more about that. But I taught at Central High School when it was downtown and I taught competitive speech and I directed plays and then I, well, I taught at Schulter for one year. They needed to bring up their test scores and they hired like the whole new administration and a third of the faculty was new and we brought up the test scores. So they weren't going to close. I hated leaving there because everybody was so supportive but I had this job offer at Mounds. And so it was like half the distance because I'd passed 201st Street halfway to Schulter. And so I took the job at Mounds and I drove down to Schulter to turn in my letters of resignation and to talk to them about, you know, I really liked this. Sorry to be leaving. And so I taught at Mounds for about 30 years and directed some plays, directed competitive speech. We won the state championship three years in a row. I had numerous individual state champions, one of whom never debated, but she is an attorney in Tulsa now and has fabulous commercials on Saturday Night Live and on the evening news. But she never, she persuaded me that she shouldn't take debate to, although she was undefeated. Bob Odle: Now, I'd be better if I took this, Mr. Odle. And so, okay. I mean, she persuaded me. Toby Jenkins: Now, did you ever teach at TU's theater department? Bob Odle: No, I didn't. Toby Jenkins: Were you involved with the? Bob Odle: After I graduated, I did do a play at TU that they then took to some contest at what used to be that horrible theater facility downtown in Oklahoma City [Mummers Theatre]. It's that thing that had boxes going every which way that they finally have torn down. And this should never have been built in the first place. Toby Jenkins: So just for purposes of our interview, the curtains in the Lynn Riggs were donated by TU Theater Department and the risers are from the TU Theater Department right before they closed down. Bob Odle: I know, and they still send me letters asking for money having closed the department that I graduated from years ago. And I think they gave the costumes to the PAC and they gave various other things away. Dennis Neill: We had to replace the curtains because they were out of code. 18 �Dennis Neill: Yeah, I think they had like a 10 or 15 year life. And so we replaced them in about 2020, 2021, something like that. Toby Jenkins: Let's go to our, I was curious to understand the trajectory in Tulsa, the incredible community support for live theater and how things have changed. You've lived through an interesting period. We talked about your, you know, being in college when Kennedy was assassinated. And here we are in 2026. During the, just real quickly, during the pandemic, were you involved in live theater and how the pandemic impacted our theater companies? Bob Odle: No, theater just totally shut down all over the world, I think. Now I, for a year there, I didn't go, except to go to research, I put on my mask and I still have masks in the car. But theater just shut down. And there was money, there was money for businesses that had to shut down and the theater applied for some grants and got some grants. The theater, the theater actually made more money the year we were shut down. They did no shows than some of the years when we'd done shows. Toby Jenkins: Because you didn't have any expenses. Toby Jenkins: Right. So here, I know that you, your family are here. Have you stayed involved in their lives? I mean, have they? Bob Odle: Well, they're all, my stepfather died in 2009 and my mother died just about three months ago. Toby Jenkins: Okay, our condolences. And how old was she? Bob Odle: She was 99 years and eight months and something. Toby Jenkins: Amazing. Bob Odle: She was, she would be, March 15th, she would be 100. And she was, she was doing all of her own, handling all of her business and doing all of her stuff until the very end when she just suddenly, precipitously went downhill. Toby Jenkins: Did she live by herself? Bob Odle: Yes, after my stepfather died, she did. She depended on her neighbor a lot and on me. It wasn't till I had to deal with our, the attorney that deals with our trust, and I had to write down, because I keep my calendars for years, and I had to write down all the times I'd taken her to the doctor and the dentist and the podiatrist and dermatologist and whatnot and to Reasor’s. And I didn't realize the amount of time and the amount of miles I was driving to take care of her. Toby Jenkins: Hmm. Well, I'm glad that she had you, and I'm glad that you had her. Bob Odle: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And our condolences. What do you keep, what keeps you busy now? 19 �Bob Odle: Dealing with her estate. And a good friend of mine, the one who persuaded me to go back and get my teaching certificate and get a master's degree, he died July 10th of 2024. And so I was named co-executor of his estate. And we had to go to court Tuesday. That's why I couldn't meet Tuesday to deal with, we had a hearing dealing with that estate. I'm hopeful that before the two-year time passes, that we will have this probate all aside, but we had a business, we had three houses, multiple vehicles, and other property to deal with, and it's just been, it's been a nightmare. That has kept me really busy, and dealing with my mother, and now dealing with her estate, and trying to keep my own life going. Toby Jenkins: Now, are you involved in, I know that you're involved here in the organization, you come to some of the programs for older adults. Bob Odle: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And are you involved in any other advocacy work, or political work, or? Bob Odle: Well, Tuesday, Tuesday I had to drop off the king cake, because it was Mardi Gras at the senior citizen breakfast. Then I dashed to the Tulsa Metropolitan Area Retired Educators Association, because I'm a retired teacher, and I took some sausage rolls to that, and stayed for that meeting. We always have interesting speakers. And so I'm involved in that. Last Friday was the Democrats' monthly luncheon at Interurban, and we have fascinating, well, Cindy Munson, who's the candidate for governor, spoke. And we always have fascinating speakers there. And so I go to that, and then I think there was one night this past week, maybe Tuesday night, Tuesday was a busy day, I went to Connie Dodson's kickoff for her campaign for school board, and I don't live in her district, but the idiot who represents that district now, I would like to see defeated. Toby Jenkins: So you're politically active. Bob Odle: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And what is your present feelings about our, I mean, you've lived a long time, you've seen a lot of things. Bob Odle: Go back to the Truman, I remember when President Truman was reelected. Toby Jenkins: What's your present feelings about our political climate, and how you see, okay, yeah, yeah. Do you have some concerns? Bob Odle: Yes. I'm concerned about whether I've been contributing to a couple of the candidates for Congress, not the one who made a million millions while paying his employees minimum wage, but I've contributed to others, one of whom is my school board member, and I'm contributing, but I'm concerned about whether we're even going to have an election or any more elections. I'm concerned about what the Supreme Court might decide, whether they would give him free license to totally trample or burn or tear up the Constitution. 20 �I mean, a guy who was fired from, I saw a guy who was fired from ABC News on MSNow the other day. I don't remember his name, but I remember the interview where he talked to the president about the things in the Oval Office, or here's a copy of the Declaration of Independence. What does that stand for? Well, it's a declaration, and it deals with love. All of the he hases, that whole list of he hases deals with love, and yes, it's a declaration. That's in its title, the Declaration of Independence. Toby Jenkins: I mean, duh. Bob Odle: How stupid do you have to be? He is pretty stupid. Toby Jenkins: So you see our political climate, and you see the way, not just constitutional norms being eroded, but specifically the erasure of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer people, the blacks, American Indians, the arts being stripped of funding, the Kennedy Center, as a person who's fought and taught and been instrumental in keeping fine arts alive in our culture. What are your thoughts on that? Bob Odle: Well, it's not just gay rights. It's black rights. I mean, he complains that the National Museum of the Black Americans, or whatever that is, this Smithsonian institution, deals too much with slavery. And he has said there should be less emphasis on Martin Luther King Day, or Juneteenth. We should focus more on his birthday. He has insisted that that November 12th be called Columbus Day and not Indigenous Americans Day, which in the city of Tulsa and maybe Oklahoma, a lot of states have declared it to be Indigenous Americans Day. I mean, he and our governor, our governor waves his Cherokee citizenship card around, hate American Indians. He hates black people. I mean, is it any surprise that some of the generals that have been fired have been black? Toby Jenkins: And female. Bob Odle: And the two journalists, well, the commandant of the Coast Guard was female. And the two journalists who were arrested in church were both black. Two of them were black. And he, I mean, his racism goes back generations. He and his father were fined, what, two million dollars by the federal government for not renting to black people in their apartment buildings back in the 60s or 70s. I think that goes from his grandfather coming over here from Germany under suspicious circumstances whereby Germany, when he went back after World War I, Germany refused to have him and send him back here because he had avoided the draft. He'd avoided the draft by coming over here. He didn't tell them he had homosexual tendencies or anything like that. Apparently he didn't. But I don't know. The racism, and his grandfather grew up in Germany at a time when Wagner was heavily racist, when Adolf Hitler was being born and was growing up, when there was a lot of racism in Germany at that time. And so he brought that over here and instilled that in his son and his grandson. 21 �Toby Jenkins: So, as we come to the close of our interview, is there anything else you want us to talk about that we haven't talked about? Bob Odle: Not that I can think of, except I'm sad that there is only basically one gay bar in Tulsa. It doesn't give us much variety. That's why I like New Orleans. There's a lot of variety down there. A lot of cities have more variety than we have. Although they have gone to publishing a calendar and they have Latin Night, which starts at 10 o'clock on the last Friday. They have Leather Night. They have various nights. So they have opened it to various people. But I don't go there very often because it's boring. Hardly ever do I see anybody my age or anybody I know there, so I don't go. Dennis Neill: So, Bob, why do you think that in the early 80s we had like 19 bars. We're down to a handful. What do you think has caused that demise, even though our city is larger? Bob Odle: Well, I think from what I observe in Tulsa and in other cities, I think part of it is the AIDS crisis. I think there was a diminution of the audience after that. I think the pandemic that hit in 2020 is part of it. And I think also we're at an age when I think this is wonderful in a way, but in a way I think it's depressing. Young gay people can go to any bar, hold hands, kiss, hug, whatever, and nobody really cares. I see this in New Orleans a lot. I saw Lafitte's Blacksmith Shop, which is where Lafitte's in Exile first started, except they've dropped the exile now. Until the owner of the building found out they were gay and they already moved them out and then they moved into a bigger place down the street. But I've seen people holding hands. I've seen, obviously, gay couples in there and in other bars here in Tulsa and in other places. And I think it's the acceptance of gay couples everywhere, in addition to those other things, but I think it's just an evolution. And I think it's a wonderful thing. Dennis Neill: You touched on AIDS. Can you talk a little bit more about your personal experience in the theatre, in the theatrical community, the impact both locally and anything you know. I am thinking about John Thomeyer who was so active and passed from AIDS. What has been your personal experience with AIDS? Bob Odle: Well, an actor who toured with Gaslight, who we then hired as part of our full-time staff, eventually quit and moved to New York. And there he began to exhibit all these different, you know, symptoms and died a number of years ago. A good friend who was in some of our first shows, our first season, moved to New York. He got cancer, some sort of colorectal thing, and he retired and he moved back to Tulsa. He eventually died, but essentially it was AIDS, you know, HIV. And then another friend who died in New York, he was from Tulsa, graduated from Will Rogers, was a student there when I did my student teaching at Will Rogers. And he did some shows with us early on, but then he moved to New York and he eventually died, I believe, of AIDS. And so I've known people who've died. I haven't known of anyone, oh, there's somebody, I can't think who it was, but there's somebody I do know who died….I didn't know him very well, but he died of AIDS. And I'm aware of numerous people who've died of AIDS, HIV. 22 �Dennis Neill: And were you ever involved in the 80s and 90s with some of the support groups around here or AIDS response within the Tulsa community? Bob Odle: I went to one meeting at Nancy McDonald's house of PFLAG, but I just didn't have time to get involved with that. And I was involved with you and three or four other people in reorganizing TOHR. That was in the 80s. But I really didn't have time because I was still doing theater at the time, and I was out of town doing tours and things, and I really didn't have time to get involved. And that's the thing about doing theater now, because I'm so involved in some of these social and political things. I hate to give up, because I gave those things up when I was doing theater, because almost every night I had to work. Now I hate to, I can't give up the political and social things I'm involved in. It's that time of my life for me. Toby Jenkins: So as we kind of come to the close, and just give you a minute to think about this, is there anything you would want to say to anybody who comes after us, or younger people today who will see this interview? Is there anything you would like to say, like, this is my message to you for the future? Bob Odle: Things will get better. I saw a person who has a shop on Greenwood talking about, he's an older person, talking about younger black people, thinking, why are you so bitter about stuff? Well, they had, young black people are enjoying the fruits of their labor. Young gay people are enjoying the fruits of our labor. But our labor shouldn't stop. It can't stop. Because we have seen from the past year that they can go back, these things can go backwards. Toby Jenkins: So don't stop. Bob Odle: No, we have to keep fighting for our rights. It was Hubert Humphrey who said, freedom has to be won every day. Toby Jenkins: Very good. Okay, if you'll give us your name one more time, and today's date. Bob Odle: Bob Odle, February 19th, 2026. Toby Jenkins: Thank you so much for your time with us today. Bob Odle: Well, thank you. Toby Jenkins: Thank you, Bob. Addendum: 23 �Robert "Bob" Odle dressed for the role of "Rev. Dr. Oral Love" for a production of "Joyce Martel," produced by the American Theatre Company of Tulsa, OK. The company performed this production at various venues from 1975 to 1985, some of which include the following: Cain's Ballroom, The Inferno, The Captain's Cabin, Mayo Hotel, and the Brook Theatre. The image shows Odle dressed in a church minister's robe while clutching a one dollar bill. Phot courtesy of the Museum of Tulsa History. 24 �Depicting five theater actors dressed as "Martels" in the finale of the production "Joyce Martel: They Say It's Your Birthday," produced in 1985 by the American Theatre Company at the Brook Theatre in Tulsa, OK. The actors and actress are as follows (left to right): Robert "Bob" Odle, Karl Krause, Melanie Fry (in the role of Joyce Martel), Greg Roach, and Tony Gates (kneeling). Photo courtesy of the Museum of Tulsa History. 25 � https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/92b7672f465b31469e90f256836e0487.mp4 4594a2c03a0488471c94cd800d12db1f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Robert (Bob) Odle Oral History Interview - Feb. 19, 2026 Video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Robert Odle Interview Subject The topic of the resource Robert (Bob) Odle Oral History Project Interview from February 19, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robert Odle, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 19, 2026 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Toby Jenkins on February 19, 2026. Bob was born on May 15, 1945, in Kansas City, Missouri. His mom and stepdad moved to Tulsa when Bob was in the sixth grade. He graduated from Nathan Hale High School in 1963 and finished his theatre degree from the University of Tulsa in 1967. He was required to go to Oklahoma City for a possible induction into the military as this was the height of the Vietnam War. After two interviews, it was clear that Bob was gay and not subject to military service due to the ban at that time on homosexuals in the military. He began a teaching career in competitive speech and drama at Central High School in Tulsa. He discussed his early involvement in theatre with Gaslight Theatre and the American Theatre Company with its early satirical takes on Tulsa, Oral Roberts University and co-wrote ATC’s production of “A Christmas Carol,” which continues to be performed each December for some 50 years. Bob created the Brother Oral Love role that became a fixture of ATC’s shows along with the Oral Action Singers. Bob has stayed politically active, often writes reviews of plays and musicals and serves in other volunteer roles in the Tulsa community. 2026 A Christmas Carol American Theatre Company American Theatre Company (ATC) American Theatre Productions ATC ATC productions Bob Odle Brother Oral Love Central High School Gaslight Theatre interview military inclusion Nathan Hale High School OKEQ Oral History Project Oral Action Singers oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Oral Roberts University Robert (Bob) Odle Robert Odle Toby Jenkins transcript TU Tulsa Central High School University of Tulsa video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/9c370c2ade14307e6a1b7cac51fd997a.mp4 8c86d9871f18be29287a1c8d06288d8e https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/6100ee390b88b4e5687d17fa8a967f00.pdf c25b26bcfe904aa3a2707aed1621f55c PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Sue Welch and Marcy Smith Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: Jan 16, 2026 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video, February 28, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Sue Welch and Marcy Smith Summary In this engaging conversation, Marcy Smith and Sue Welch share their personal journeys, highlighting their experiences growing up in Oklahoma and navigating their identities as members of the LGBTQ+ community. Marcy recounts her childhood in Tulsa, her education at Oklahoma Christian College, and her early awareness of her sexual orientation. She reflects on the challenges faced by LGBTQ+ individuals in a conservative environment, including the need for stealth and the importance of finding community. Sue, on the other hand, shares her upbringing in Ponca City, her academic journey at OSU, and the pivotal moment when she realized her feelings for her best friend. Both women discuss their relationships, the evolution of their identities, and the significance of community support in their lives. As they delve deeper into their experiences, Marcy and Sue recount their involvement with Oklahomans for Human Rights and the development of the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. They reflect on the challenges of coming out to their families, the societal pressures they faced, and the importance of creating a safe space for LGBTQ+ individuals in Tulsa. Their stories are filled with humor, resilience, and a sense of belonging, showcasing the power of love and community in overcoming adversity. In this episode, Marcy Smith and Sue Welch share their inspiring journey of establishing a community center for the LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa, Oklahoma. They recount the grassroots efforts that began in the late 2 �1980s, during the AIDS crisis, when they faced skepticism and pushback from within their own community. Despite the challenges, they successfully organized fundraising events, such as house parties and the Wild Hearts Ball, to raise awareness and funds. Their determination led to significant milestones, including securing a $10,000 grant from a New York foundation and eventually purchasing a permanent space for their community center, which became a hub for support, celebration, and activism. The conversation highlights the importance of physical spaces for community gathering, especially in a time when virtual connections are prevalent. Marcy and Sue emphasize the need for ongoing support and engagement within the community, particularly in light of recent political challenges. They reflect on the center's role in pivotal moments for LGBTQ+ rights, including the legalization of same-sex marriage and the repeal of discriminatory laws. Their message is clear: maintaining a physical home for the community is essential for fostering connection, support, and resilience against adversity. Keywords LGBTQ+, Tulsa, Oklahomans for Human Rights, coming out, community support, Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, personal stories, Marcy Smith, Sue Welch, LGBTQ+ history, LGBTQ+ community, Tulsa, fundraising, community center, activism, AIDS crisis, grassroots efforts, Wild Hearts Ball, same-sex marriage, community support Takeaways ● "I knew pretty early probably 10 or 11 years of age." ● "You just find your people and can do things." ● "It was kind of a cover, right?" ● "I felt like I was living in the 1950s." ● "It was a pivotal thing to see that." ● "I think they were upset that they were having to deal with it." ● "My family has always been very progressive, very liberal." ● "We moved into a duplex that I had previously moved into." ● "We developed a campaign for a permanent visible presence." 3 �● "It was fantastic because I think we had such a large group." It was a very grassroots campaign, one person at a time. ● We had to prove ourselves first before getting large donations. ● We wanted to bring disparate groups together behind the same cause. ● The community bought into this; it was a beautiful thing. ● We had to create a physical space for gathering and support. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 01:16 Marcy's Childhood and Education 12:10 Sue's Upbringing and Early Relationships 24:00 Finding Community in Tulsa 38:55 Coming Out to Family and Friends 46:58 Involvement with Oklahomans for Human Rights 48:21 Grassroots Beginnings: Building Support 52:28 Creating Community Events for Fundraising 01:00:10 Challenges and Triumphs in Fundraising 01:08:50 Finding a Permanent Home for the Center 01:18:31 The Grand Opening and Community Impact 01:25:42 Reflections on Community and Future Challenges __________________________________________________________________ ____ 4 �Sue Welch and Marcy Smith Oral History Interview Jan 16, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Today's date is Friday, January the 16th, 2026, at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in downtown Tulsa, Oklahoma. And we have Marcy Smith and Sue Welch. For our archival purposes, would you please give us your name, your age as today's date. Marcy Smith: Me, Marcy Smith, 62, gonna be 63 this year. Sue Welch: Sue Welch, 64. Toby Jenkins: Joining me in the interview today is the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, Dennis R. Neill, and Amanda Thompson, who is the archivist at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, which houses the Nancy and Joe MacDonald Rainbow Library [where this interview is being conducted]. Marcy, tell us a little bit about your childhood and your family. When were you born? Marcy Smith: October 10th, 1963, right here in Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: What hospital? Marcy Smith: Well, I thought I was born in St. John, but recently, I found out I was born in Hillcrest. Toby Jenkins: And so your family was from Tulsa? Marcy Smith: Yes, my mom's family eventually was from Tulsa, but they had spent some time in Texas for quite some time. And then my dad was a sales rep for Skelly Oil Company and moved around a lot. I was born in Tulsa, and then 11 months later, my sister Karen was born in Joplin. And then 18 months after that, my sister Cindy was born in Fort Smith, Arkansas. Then we hung out in Arkansas for a little bit and then came back to Tulsa, so yeah. Toby Jenkins: Did you go to school? Marcy Smith: Went to- yes, went to elementary school, where the center now is for- at 11th and Utica, went to Jefferson Elementary School, which does not exist anymore, because of the center now, so. Toby Jenkins: The center for those with physical challenged? Marcy Smith: Yes, yes, not Oklahomans for Equality Center. 5 �Marcy Smith: So went to school there, and then we moved way out south in 1971 to Jenks, which was- Woodland Hills Mall didn't even exist. That 71st and Memorial, it was a gravel road still. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and it was called Jenks USA. Marcy Smith: That's right, it was Jenks USA, and it was way the heck out there. So we moved out to Jenks and then finished school at Jenks High School, and thenToby Jenkins: And what year did you graduate? Marcy Smith: Graduated 1982. Toby Jenkins: 1982. Marcy Smith: Then went toToby Jenkins: How many were in your graduating class at Jenks? Marcy Smith: I think there were 482 people, something like that, yeah. And then went to Oklahoma Christian College for a couple of years. Toby Jenkins: Which is locatedMarcy Smith: In Edmond, Oklahoma. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Marcy Smith: Still is. Toby Jenkins: And it's a disciple’s college? Marcy Smith: It's Church of Christ. Toby Jenkins: Church of Christ, okay. And that's where you went for your undergraduate degree? Marcy Smith: Couple years there, and the reason I went was that my best friend from high school was Church of Christ, and I didn't have a- it's like, "Okay, I'll go there, that's fine." And ran into probably one of the largest groups of gays and lesbians on the planet. It's kind of a joke. Anyway, although it was not a veryToby Jenkins: At the Christian University? Marcy Smith: At the Christian College. 6 �Toby Jenkins: Right. Marcy Smith: Lots of gays and lesbians, lots of people trying to escape their parents in the small town. So it was kind of a- I guess it was what you would call a beard, right? It was a cover. So they're like, "Oh yeah, we're gonna go to a Christian's college and fix ourselves." But that was not happening there. So anyway. Although when they caught someone, it was pretty brutal how they dealt with getting rid of students at the college when they found out they were gay or lesbian, so. Toby Jenkins: So you went thereMarcy Smith: I was there for a couple years, and my best friend was in love with a guy back in Tulsa. She just couldn't finish- she had to come back to Tulsa. So there really wasn't anything for me to stay there for, so I came back to Tulsa and finished my degree at the University of Tulsa.Graduated in 1986 with an MIS degree, which was one of the very first computer science and business majors at the University of Tulsa. We were the second class, and I think there were only about seven of us. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been what year? Marcy Smith: That was 1986. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and how big was the computer in those days? Marcy Smith: Well, soToby Jenkins: It wasn't on- it couldn't be on your desk yet, could it? I think- yeah. Marcy Smith: Well, no, no, yeah. No, but it was heading that way. It was heading that way. So, no, they were pretty big, pretty big computers. But I pushed it as long as I possibly could, so that I didn't have to use punch cards to do my programming. And thankfully, I got out of that, so. But computers as we would know them are desktops. I think that was around 1991-1992, or something like that, when that became kinda mainstream. Toby Jenkins: And did you go work for a company, or were youMarcy Smith: Fresh out of college, I ended up- I had two job offers. One was to be a tape hanger for American Airlines in their computer room. The other was to be a programmer analyst for Tulsa County. My dad thought I made a really horrible mistake by not working for American Airlines on the third shift hanging tapes, which was like an aerobic exercise job at the time. 7 �You can imagine their processing center and imagine their processing center today. But yeah, he thought I was silly for- 'cause I would've gotten fine benefits and stuff like that, so. But I never looked back on that. It's not what I wanted to do, so. Toby Jenkins: And how long were you with Tulsa County? Marcy Smith: About 18 years. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Toby Jenkins: And so are you gonna be able to draw your Tulsa County pension? Marcy Smith: As a matter of fact, in November of 2025, I got my first retirement check. Marcy Smith: So yeah, I'm happy about that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. They didn't pay us much, but we've got pension. Marcy Smith: No. But yeah, the benefits are really good. Yeah, but when I left Tulsa County in 2004, that rule of '80, I thought, there's just no way I'm gonna reach that, right? So that was 22 years ago. But as it got closer and closer, I was really happy about it, so we'll have some fun on that. Toby Jenkins: So you encountered other lesbian and gay students. Is that when you begin to realizeMarcy Smith: No, no. I knew pretty early, probably 10 or 11 years of age. Marcy Smith: And then, just because of the climate, dated- in quotes, dated guys in high school and got asked in high school because there was some stuff going on with the girls' basketball team, which I was on the basketball team. There were several lesbians on the basketball team. And so there got to be a kind of an uproar at some point. People were being questioned. And so my parents sat me down and I just lied straight to their face, 'cause I didn't wanna be in the middle of it. So thankfully, got out of that without a whole lot of issues, so. But it was a- Jenks back then, it was a pretty rural school. A lot of bubba's running around, a lot of individuals threatening people and some violence and vandalism of cars and stuff like that going on, so. So I didn't wanna call attention to it. Toby Jenkins: At college, even at your Christian college, I mean, did you hang out with those individuals and y'all just kind of were stealth atMarcy Smith: Well, yeah, you know how we are. We find our people, right? And so you hang out with your people. And so yeah, it was just a matter of just figuring out what you 8 �can and cannot do. But I will say- yeah, Oklahoma Christian College was smaller than my high school.When we went there, and I felt like I was living in the 1950s. When we got on campus, the girls dorms were locked at night, the guys were not. The guys could do whatever they wanted at night after hours on the weekend, stuff like that. I knew I wasn't gonna be long for that. It was just like, well, I'm just going here because my friend was here. And once that started happening, I just felt like I was caged in and so- but it was kind of odd environment. It kinda felt like you were in a bubble, this Christian bubble, and everything was wonderful and fine and all of that. Who knows what the administrators thought, but that wasn't what was going on behind the scenes with the students and stuff, so you just find your people and can do things. I ended up getting a job at a really nice restaurant there in Edmond called Joe Kelly's and it was a steakhouse, and people would have their high school events there and graduation and stuff like that. But I was the first- it was called a barback, so you're a bartender's assistant. Here I am going to a Christian college and I'm working at a bar, and when I would come home at night after doing my shift at the restaurant, I was literally covered in alcohol and smoke, 'cause you could smoke back then, right? At 02:00-03:00 in the morning, I had to wake up the resident assistants, this woman who took care of us at the dorm, had to wake her up at 02:00 AM in the morning, coming in just covered in alcohol. So anyway, that was kinda funny, people would do that. Toby Jenkins: Did you start socializing with this group of students who were in hiding, or did that happen when you got to TU? I mean, when did you create a clique of friends, whoMarcy Smith: When I left Oklahoma Christian College which was in Edmond, obviously, and came home to Tulsa, I really didn't stay in touch with most of them. They were from all over Oklahoma and all over the country, actually. So when I came back to Tulsa, I came back to Tulsa because I had a relationship with a woman at the time. We ended up moving in together and I finished out my degree at University of Tulsa at that point, and then just kinda started hanging out with everybody here in Tulsa, so really kinda through the softball chain of- I mean, just kinda how it was. Toby Jenkins: Lesbian day, or? Marcy Smith: Yeah, yeah, that's right, softball stuff. And then, the bars at the time and line dancing and all that kinda stuff. So you're going out to the bars andToby Jenkins: Do you remember what bars you went to? 9 �Marcy Smith: Oh. Well, I can't remember the name of the bar that was on Memorial there at 15th Street. Toby Jenkins: TNT's? Marcy Smith: No. Well, it wasn't- no, it was prior to TNT's and where people were playingyou know the name of the bar? Sue Welch: The Club. Marcy Smith: The Club, it's called The Club. So anyway, you had to knock and they open up the window and let you in, and all that kinda stuff. Toby Jenkins: And that was at 15th at Memorial? Marcy Smith: 15th, right, yeah, yeah, 15th Street, dead-ended, right into Memorial. And then, The Club was there and it was like a little house, actually. It wasn't very big. But they had an outdoor space, so volleyball and have fires and stuff like that. You can hang out outside The Club. Sue Welch: Jodie and Mary owned it. Marcy Smith: Yeah. So thenToby Jenkins: And it was a girls club? Marcy Smith: Yeah. And then you had the star, Silver Star, right? So that was 15th and Sheridan, and then TNT's. And then, theMarcy Smith: Off of Yale, what was it? 34th and Yale. There's also a club called the Crash Landing at the time [Crash Landing was at 5th and S. Lewis], that was a pretty coolToby Jenkins: So is Zippers closed by this time? Marcy Smith: No, Zippers- was it always called Zippers? I don't know if it was always called Zippers or not, but that was another place that we would go to, so. Toby Jenkins: So softball. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And these are clubs. Marcy Smith: Yes. 10 �Toby Jenkins: Did you know anything about Oklahomans for Human Rights or pride, or? Marcy Smith: I guess it was probably real early 90s when I got involved with OHR, TOHR. That was kinda the transition time, I think, when it was moving from those names and stuff over. Specifically, I believe it was when we were over on Peoria, I think. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Marcy Smith: So that's kinda the first access in trying to assist and volunteer and stuff like that, so. Toby Jenkins: Let's put Sue on the hot seat. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And see how similar her story is or how different it is. Before we do that, I wanna ask you, tell me about meeting Sue. Marcy Smith: It was a New Year's Eve party at a friend's house. Lots of people there, I don't know, probably 30 or 40 women, maybe more than that. And this will date us- so it was all about Trivial Pursuit. So we're playing Trivial Pursuit, it's pretty competitive. She walked in with her then-partner, and I was around a coffee table or something like that, knee-deep in the Trivial Pursuit. And I just looked up and she walked in with her then-partner. And it wasI don't know how- maybe I said something to someone like, "Who's that?" They were like, "Sue Welch and Darlene." So anyway, that's how we met, but there was something at that just initial glance. And so anyway, I'll let her tell the rest, but it was just a party. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Beautiful. Sue, where were you born and where are you from? Sue Welch: I was born in Ponca City, Oklahoma on April 30th, 1961. Dennis was born there too, it's our hometown, both of us. Marcy Smith: It's in the water. Sue Welch: Yeah. A nice, sweet little, small town, a great town to be born and raised in. Not a great town to stay, but a great town to be born and raised in. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Were you born in the hospital there? Sue Welch: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And what was the name of that hospital? Sue Welch: Ponca City Hospital. 11 �Toby Jenkins: Okay. And tell us about your family. Sue Welch: My family, my mother's Cherokee and my dad is English. And they had a great love affair and were married till they passed and were wonderful parents. But my dad is a third-generation brick mason. Hiss grandfather, before statehood, had a brick yard in Ponca City. And he built the first brick home. So from my great-grandfather to my grandfather to my father and his brothers, it was a third-generation brick mason company, Welch Masonry Construction. Toby Jenkins: So they've been there for a while. Are there still- if you were to go to Ponca City today, are there still buildings that they built? Sue Welch: Oh, dozens and dozens, yes. Buildings and homes, yes. Yeah, you could have a Welch Masonry tour of Ponca City. Toby Jenkins: So did you go to school in Ponca City? Sue Welch: Yes, I went to Ponca City High School. And it was- we actually had a very large graduating class. It was 415 people for our graduating class. And I thought it wasToby Jenkins: So you all probably played Jenks in sports. Sue Welch: I wasn't really into sports. I don't know that. Could be. But I studied a lot. Sue Welch: Well, it may have been a little too far away. Toby Jenkins: Oh, okay. Sue Welch: Maybe at state and regionals, but not on a conference level. Sue Welch: I wouldn't have known. I went to the football games just for fun. So don't ask me any of those stats. Marcy Smith: Too popular. Sue Welch: I was the prom queen. So there's that. Toby Jenkins: Says so much. Sue Welch: But not the football queen, so. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So what year did you graduate? Sue Welch: I graduated in 1979. 12 �Toby Jenkins: And did you go to school after that? Sue Welch: Yes, after that, I went to OSU. And in 1983, got my degree in natural sciences, my bachelor's degree in natural sciences. Loved OSU. That was great. That was where my best friend and I started having deeper feelings about each other, so…in high school and throughout a large- oh, the first half of college, my boyfriend from high school, the wrestling star, we became engaged. So in high school- in college, we were going to be married right after college. My best friend and I started becoming very, very close, and I just kept thinking, "Oh my God, I can't graduate and leave my friend. This would be horrible." And we just kept getting deeper and deeper feelings, and I thought, "What is going on here?" Sue Welch: And so I talked to my mom about it, and I said, "I think I'm going crazy or something." She said, well, honey, I can't believe that any love is wrong. And I never looked back. So I left my fiancé. Toby Jenkins: And that would've been- you would've been ... Marcy Smith: She called off the wedding. Yeah. Sue Welch: Yeah. Sue Welch: The dress was all done. The invitations were ... - yeah. It was on the way. Marcy Smith: The colors were picked, all the stuff. Toby Jenkins: The runaway bride. Marcy Smith: Yes. Sue Welch: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. How old would you've been? Sue Welch: So that would have been, let's see, right when I graduated, right at 1983. So 21, 22. Toby Jenkins: So you had this discussion with your mother. I'm just guessing there probably weren't a bunch of lesbians in Ponca City to help mentor you. Sue Welch: There may have been, but I did not know them. Toby Jenkins: Okay. 13 �Sue Welch: I didn't know anyone in the community. I didn'tToby Jenkins: It's 'cause you weren't going to softball camp. Sue Welch: That's right. My gaydar was not tuned at the time, so yeah. Toby Jenkins: You went to OSU. What was that experience like for you now that you had ended that relationship and probably were figuring out? Sue Welch: We moved into a house together, and we had a few friends, both of us. We were each other's first experience, and so neither of us knew of any community per se, but we did find a few friends, half a dozen, 10 friends that we hung out with a little bit. Then we broke up, and someone introduced me to a woman in Tulsa. And when I left OSU and came to Tulsa to establish my practice here, there was a huge community. So many people. I was just like, "Wow, this is amazing." So much so that my partner was a teacher, and my sister, when she would visit, she said, "Well, are all teachers lesbians?" So such a great, huge community. So that was fantastic to experience. Marcy Smith: Well, and you have gay guy friends to this day from OSU. Sue Welch: Well, not from a- well, they were gone at the same time. Yeah, but we didn't hang out a lot. We found each other kind of after. In Tulsa. And I was like, "I knew you in OSU." So we kind of, all of us were in hiding there once I did come out of OSU. Toby Jenkins: So you didn't really connect to the LGBTQ community at OSU. It was when you came to Tulsa. Sue Welch: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And when you say there was a huge community, what did that look like? Sue Welch: Oh my gosh. Toby Jenkins: Were there just house parties, or people went to eat together, or? Sue Welch: House parties, going to the bars, dancing, potlucks, softball. My partner was a well-respected softball umpire, so lots of softball. Of course she was. And so yeah, just a lot of socializing. A lot of socializing. Toby Jenkins: Did either of you ladies ever interact with the flag football team, the girls' flag football team? Sue Welch: No. 14 �Toby Jenkins: Okay. Well, that's who helped me come out. I always say I was raised by wolves, because the girls' flag football team. So it was a huge community, and you were in a relationship. Sue Welch: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And what was your career at this time? Sue Welch: I was licensed by the medical board as an electrologist. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Sue Welch: And I did that for 22 years in Broken Arrow and in Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: And you were in a relationship. Do you remember kinda what the environment was like for you in Tulsa, what it was like to go to gay clubs and, as you said, find so many people? Sue Welch: It was fantastic. Because I think we had so many- such a large group, I didn't recognize feeling a lot of threat. I knew some of our male counterparts were threatened. But we just didn't go to places that allowed us to be threatened. We didn't go out unless we were in big numbers. We only went to certain places. The Club was very private, very protected. So that's kind of what that was like. Toby Jenkins: And what was that like? You hit the parking lot, and the minute you walk through the doorSue Welch: Yeah, it's freedom. Yeah, freedom. Toby Jenkins: You could hold hands. Like, cheers, hey. Sue Welch: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: You could hold hands? Yeah. Sue Welch: Yeah, freedom, absolutely. Sue Welch: But not out at work, not out to any clients, not out to friends who were not LGBT. Toby Jenkins: So I'm gonna ask you both this question, but tell me about the first time you saw Marcy. 15 �Sue Welch: So it was a party, and my partner and I walked in, and there were people playing at a table. And Marcy has these beautiful brown piercing eyes, and so I noticed her naturally. And it was probably another year after, and it was a New Year's party, and it struck midnight. And I'm a pretty private person, private physically. I'm very demonstrative, but kissing on the lips was really a personal thing for me. And it struck midnight, and Marcy just planted a kiss right on my lips. And I was like, "Wow." Marcy Smith: She wasn't the only person that I kissed. Sue Welch: Well, no. Marcy Smith: I mean, it was New Year's Eve. Everybody ... . Sue Welch: Marcy wasn't as protective of her lips as I was. So but yes, I was like, "Oh, my God." That was sparky. So yeah. And then our partners, the four of us became close friends, and you know the story. So we could not- we were inseparable. And we all four worked on our partnerships. We knew there were some feelings. But we were inseparable and just in so much pain not being able to see each other that the partnership split. AndToby Jenkins: For you all to be together? Marcy Smith: Yep. Toby Jenkins: Okay. That would've been what year? Marcy Smith: '92. Toby Jenkins: '92? Marcy Smith: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Sue Welch: In the 1900s. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Sue Welch: In the 1900s, we got together. Toby Jenkins: So I asked both of you, and you said you found community here. You found that because you got on the Internet, right? And you looked up where the gay bars were. Marcy Smith: Oh right, because the Internet existed. No, the Internet didn't quite exist yet. Well, I guess 1992-ish is about the time it started taking off. Those were chat rooms. 16 �Toby Jenkins: Do you remember any public officials or movie stars or rockstars, who were out in open who you could look at and see, oh, this is how you- this is what it is? Sue Welch: Eventually, Lilly Tomlin came out. Eventually, through the horrible AIDS crisis, we saw stars, Rock Hudson die, whether they'd come out prior or not. But no, there were no authority figures, people that you could look up to, to have any kind of guidance that way. Toby Jenkins: Social media non-existent. Sue Welch No. The Gay Yellow Pages, literally a book that you would look in to find places. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Couldn't text people messages. Marcy Smith: Nope, nope. Sue Welch: No. Toby Jenkins: Couldn't send them pictures. Marcy Smith: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So we've talked about you meeting each other. Could you just real quickly emphasize to us and our viewers, what it was like when you had the discussion with your families to say, I'm a lesbian, I have a partner. Or can you kind of tell about those experiences, if you had those experiences with your parents. Marcy Smith: My family is kinda the 'don't ask, don't tell' family. Don't mess with my stuff. I'm not gonna mess with your stuff. We're not gonna have a lot of drama. So all this time, I was just kinda living my life, but wasn't really putting it in my parents' face, so to speak. Obviously, I wasn't bringing any guys home. And then Sue and I had been together for a little bit. But so what happened was, well, same-sex marriage didn't exist. So there was a company, a travel company called Olivia Travel Company. They were also a record company at the time that was promoting lesbian artists. And so it's an all-women's cruise, which is really neat. So Sue and I were gonna do that. And on these cruises, because you could not get legally married, they would haveSue Welch: Union ceremonies. Marcy Smith: Unions, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Commitment ceremony. 17 �March Smith: A commitment ceremony. So that's how my family found out, because we sent out announcements to my family that Sue and I were going to have a commitment ceremony in Mexico, and that's how my family found out. It was kind of ripply, quite frankly. And it was kinda like, I guess, how people can be like, how could you not know that Sue and I were a couple, but sometimes straight people don't really see things. So it was a little bit rough. We timed it pretty quickly before we went to the- so we could hurry up and get out of town and get on the cruise and let my family deal with it. So that's kinda how my family found out, which was literal announcement. Toby Jenkins: So you said it was rough. I mean, were they upset, or were they questioning you, or just mad that you hadn't told them before? Marcy Smith: Yeah, yeah. I think they- I don't know, 'cause I didn't really sit down and talk with them quite honestly. It was like, just y'all deal with it. Sue Welch: I think they were upset that they were having to deal with it. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Sue Welch: They were being forced to deal with it. Marcy Smith: Yes. Yeah, and this was something that they probably had pushed down for decades, obviously. It's like, "Oh my gosh, now they have to come to terms with it." I think my parents probably thought, in some form or fashion, that they had failed, and all those things that you hear. But ultimately, my mom embraced us and kinda became the mom down here at the center. So mom spent at least 10 years, I think, or more volunteering down at the center and baking brownies for people and things like that. So she committed to that once, I think, she came to terms with it. And so that was really neat. Sue Welch: She was great. Toby Jenkins: Sue, what about you, your family? I know you'd had the conversation with your mother. Sue Welch: Well, my family found out about our commitment ceremony in the same way, with the announcements. But all through Marcy had been my third relationship. And all through…they knew about my relationships, accepted my partners, and were very loving and accepting. Accepted them as family, they came to family reunions. So when we sent out the announcements, I got calls, "That sounds nice, honey. Well, good for you." 18 �Ohe worst one, or the most uncomfortable one, I guess, was from one of my sisters, and she just called and said, "Well, I just wanna call and tell you I got your announcement about your thing. And just wanna tell you I got it." That was about the most outside effect. But my family has just always been- I've been so fortunate, the way they've accepted me. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Do you think your family's had issues with religion and sexuality? Were those any kinda struggles or politics? I mean, they were super conservative politically. Did they seem to show concern about how this was gonna make them look in their business or around, don't tell your grandmother. I mean, was there any kind of those? Marcy Smith: I think, from my father's perspective, that he was concerned about his reputation and his business reputation and the country club stuff and all of that. I remember in particular, he wanted a trip to Paris and through his company and he's like, "I don't wanna go to Paris. And I said, "Well, I'd like to go to Paris. I'll go on that trip." And it was an oil company trip thing and- so before it got too far down the line, he made it very clear to me that I was not to take my partner with me to on this trip. And so it was like, "You can take your mom." And so I said, "Okay, I'm gonna go to the city of love and take my mom." I mean, I love my mom, but. So anyway, so that was made very, very clear, that I was supposed to basically behave, in front of his peers and cronies and stuff like that for that trip, so. Toby Jenkins: Were you able to bring girlfriends home to your parents’ houses, your mom or dad's house for gatherings? Marcy Smith: So I mean, like Sue said, it's not like I was this dating feen. We had two- one, I had one, but I had a high school relationship but that was not, quite frankly, ever gonna go anywhere, but anyway. So two basic relationships before I got with Sue. Sue and I have been together for 34 years now, so it wasn't like there were this a bunch of women that I was bringing home. Toby Jenkins: Okay, what about you, Sue? Did the family feel any- I mean, were you able to take… Sue Welch: Oh yeah, yeah, from the get-go. My first relationship, second relationship, Marcy, they were all included in holidays, gatherings, accepted by my family and my sister that has lived in Oklahoma for- not currently, but for most of her life. Yeah, they were just part of the family and my partner. 19 �Marcy Smith: And I would agree with that. I don't want it to sound like my family was wanted me to not bring. ..I mean, they were- whoever I brought home, part of the family. My mom was one of seven children, so everybody was welcome. Toby Jenkins: No political pushback, no religious pushback? Marcy Smith No, because we are the 'don't ask, don't tell' family. So we didn't really bring that stuff up at all. Toby Jenkins: What about you, Sue? Sue Welch: No, no, my family's always been very progressive, very liberal, although we were raised in a fairly strict Lutheran Church, my family's never been that linear. Their Christianity really is what would Jesus do and love everyone. Toby Jenkins: Fortunate. Do you both feel fortunate that you were born into the families you were born into? Marcy Smith: Yes Sue Welch: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: 'Cause we're about to change gears just a little bit here, because surely, as you were hanging out at what places identified as the community, you were encountering people who did not have those experiences, could not take partners home, hadn't spoke to their families. I know that was something you probably were saying. So you're together…You're building your life together. I mean, did you move into an apartment together? Was there a U-Haul involved? We've always heard- I meanSue Welch: We moved into a duplex that I had previously moved into and we- then Marcy, moved in. Then we purchased the duplex and then we purchased a home in Midtown. Marcy Smith: Well, no, we purchased a second duplex. So we had two duplexes. Sue Welch: And then we purchased a home in Midtown, which we were renovating while we still lived in the first duplex. And when we moved to Midtown, it's kind of when we started finding more out about the gay pride parades and the center on Peoria and going to the center on Peoria, and seeing a little gift shop. And just- but for me, all the kids, the young kids that were there, and thinking, "Gosh, had I known about that sooner, I may have come out sooner, I don't know." but it was just- it was a pivotal thing to see that. Toby Jenkins: And of course, were you- at this time Marcy, you were still working for Tulsa County. Did they know? 20 �Marcy Smith I did not come out to- I mean literally say this to my peers, but I didn't hide my relationship with Sue and whenever we had- if we were doing chili cook-offs or whatever we were doing forToby Jenkins: Holiday parties. Marcy Smith: - fundraisers or things like that, it was just assumed that Sue would be there. So- but no, I didn't literally say to my boss, "This is who Sue is." Toby Jenkins: So you don't feel like you've experienced discrimination, justMarcy Smith: I don't know if I did or not, I just head down, get my career going and all that kinda stuff. So I don't know. Toby Jenkins: Just out of curiosity, would you have had a desk and would on your desk, would there have been a picture of your partner, and would you've had somebody ask you, like a new employee might say, "Are you married, do you have husband, do you have kids?" I meanMarcy Smith: I- to be honest, I cannot remember if I had a picture of SueSue Welch: You weren't out that much. Marcy Smith: No, no. No, I did not push that. No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Okay. Sue, you had your medical profession. And what about with your clients? I mean, were youSue Welch: No, not out all. Toby Jenkins: You guarded that very carefully. Sue Welch: I may have had two clients that I was out to, but that's it. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you've moved to Brookside, the Rainbow Ribbon, as it's called. And the center, as you call it, was just down the street. And what did that center look like? Sue Welch: It was small. It was small. It wasn't well appointed. I mean it was fantastic 'cause it served a great purpose, but just in comparison to where we're sitting now, it was small and not greatly appointed. It was hidden. Toby Jenkins: Wasn't accessible. 21 �Sue Welch: You had to go in a small door, climb some stairs. There wasn't signage, so that's kinda what I remember. The store was very, very small, maybe just one cabinet, some jewelry or something, as I recall. Toby Jenkins: And you would go to pride? Sue Welch: Yes, at that time, at least for a couple or few times, the pride parade went down Peoria, which was fantastic. So we started doing that and then we would go to pride every year beyond that. Toby Jenkins: Okay. When did- I mean, did you volunteer or did you just support it? Sue Welch: We mostly just supported at that time. And there were starting to be visible churches that were supportive, and there was one on Peoria also, and so we'd usually stand at that location. Toby Jenkins: That would've been All Souls ... ? Sue Welch: No, further south... . Toby Jenkins: Southwest Presbyterian, or? Sue Welch: Probably that Presbyterian one, yeah. Marcy Smith: It wasn't Southminster. It's not there anymore. It's right there where the green space is across from Charleston's. Sue Welch: Mm-hmm. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, the United Methodist Church. Marcy Smith: Yes, it was the United Methodist Church. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, I know. I forget the name of that, but. Okay, so you'd watch the parade. Sue Welch: And we'd join in at the end of the parade. At that time it was small enough, you could just walk with it. Toby Jenkins: Now did you ever attend the events like before the parade, where we had to walk down the sidewalks? Sue Welch: I don't know that we knew about those events. 22 �Toby Jenkins: Prior to that? Okay. And so the center was the headquarters of Tulsa Oklahoma for Human Rights, right? Correct? That y'all had already branded by that? Okay. Dennis Neill: Since '85. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And, so you were there. I know that somewhere along the line, you got into the cause, got drafted, recruited, or fell into it accidentally. The desire for us to have a more permanent home because we weren't at- the center was not at that location very long, was it? Sue Welch: No. Toby Jenkins: And then it moved. Marcy Smith: And that happened at least three times within a fairly five to six year period of time. Because somehow or another, we got a lease signed but eventually the landlords weren't really happy about the clientele. Not that it was rowdy or outrageous or anything like that. So then we moved to, or TOHR moved to the space at 21st and Memorial by TNTs, the bar there. Toby Jenkins: Above TNT's. Marcy Smith: Above TNT's. And not a very, in my opinion, positive space because the smoke was seeping through the cinder block. It got to the point, I couldn't spend much time there because of how- it just was not a positive space. And that's kinda where the rumblings of the capital campaign happened. But yeah, we got recruited at a party by Nancy McDonald. We didn't know why we got invited to this party. Sue Welch: It was actually more surreptitious than that. We started having more friends, and so we got invited to this party. She was there but she told someone after that party, "You need to call those girls and get them involved." So we got a call and were asked to get on this group to help develop and work on a capital campaign for a permanent equality center. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Sue Welch: Found out later, Nancy was the impetus for that. Toby Jenkins: And so, you got asked to serve on that? Toby Jenkins: And what were those early days like? 23 �Sue Welch: So we did have, before moving from Peoria, we did have a couple, the very first meetings there. And Marcy and I are really organized and conducting meetings, let's get something done. So I think we exhibit our leadership pretty quickly. And a lot of people don't want to be in charge. So I became the capital chair at the time. And we developed a campaign, the United Way always has a name of their campaign, so we thought we need a name for this. And so we developed the Pyramid Project. And this was a beautiful little book telling everyone about it and how it would be such a wonderful thing to have our own center, where we wouldn't have to move, a permanent visible presence. And so we just went from there and from each place we would move, we would have more meetings. We did, thanks to Dennis and Nancy as I recall, we had training from the Gill Foundation that was a weekend long. And we brought in a lot of people to that and helped develop our focus a lot more about what amount we'd be raising, how we would do that. They had some really great booklets about fundraising. And again at the time, there were no foundations in Oklahoma, much less Tulsa, who would support us until later. So it was a very grassroots campaign. It was one person at a time, one gay person in Tulsa at a time getting them on board, having them donate funds. And then we got- I remember sending out a really sappy tear-jerky letter to a foundation in New York City, who I had heard reading through these manuals with Nancy, gave money to gay causes. And they gave us our first check from a foundation, a $10,000 check from a foundation. And after that, a friend called me from the George Kaiser Foundation and said, "George was looking at the newspaper on his desk about you all and the money you're raising, and he'd like to talk with you about this and see if he could get involved." And I was like, "Okay." Dominoes, so the dominoes started. The Schusterman Foundation. But we had- before any of this large money that way, we focused on house parties, individual people, really telling them how this could happen, would happen, and it would be amazing. We had our main donors. And Dennis helped with that group and really helped us get going. So it was a house party at a time. Marcy Smith: Then again, we're still in the midst of the AIDS crisis at this time. I mean, it's still kind of going on in the late 80s and early 90s as well. And when this kicked off, I will tell you, we got some pushback from the gay guys in the community that here are two women, two- that they didn't even know. Like, we're on the D list. They don't even know who we are. Stepping up to do this. And also, at the time, there had been at least one other nonprofit 24 �organization who had a capital campaign and the funds were misused. And so of course, the thought was like, "Well, this is gonna go the same way, even though it had nothing to do with it." It was really difficult to convince, I guess you'd call them the movers and shakers at the time, in the gay community. And then, of course, trying to pull the lesbian community into it was tough. But kind of being told to our face and also hearing what was being said behind our back gave us-Fuel…some fuel to kinda set this up. And we had to do it differently, like Sue said, because we weren't in L.A, we weren't in New York, we're literally- Ford Foundation would cut a check. We didn't have that here. And so, the way we had to do it here was totally opposite. Usually, you got these big donations at the beginning that kickstarted you. And here we had to prove ourselves first. Toby Jenkins: Public dollars. Oh, the public dollars in those places. Marcy Smith: And- yeah, there's not gonna be anything from the state. Nothing was going to happen like that here. But because of that, I think it really built this incredible foundation and support for the purpose of it. And again, it was about building this home, a permanent visible presence here. Toby Jenkins: Sue, talk a little bit about how y'all used social events to create buy-in and raise money at the same time. Sue Welch: I think there were disparate clubs around town and kind of cliquish groups around town. But we wanted to really bring everybody together. So we had- and in years past, there was a large party called the Black and White Party that was hosted by gay guys in Tulsa, which was a really nicely well-attended party. But it was just a party. So we wanted to bring this disparate group of people together behind the same cause. And there had not been a citywide gay party, LGBT party in decades. And so, we developed what we called the Wild Hearts Ball. And the first one we had was at the, then Brady Mansion. And there were so many people there. And this was the first big thing that had happened in Tulsa in a long time. And so we would show a big party, nice music, nice food. We'd show a video about this and ask for donations. And it was just so compelling for people to see so many people there joining in and know that we could all do this together. Toby Jenkins: And everybody could be invited to it. Marcy Smith: Exactly. Sue Welch: Oh yeah. Toby Jenkins: It wasn't an exclusive party. 25 �Sue Welch: Exactly, it was not exclusive. Toby Jenkins: It wasn't a girl party, a boy party. Sue Welch: No. Exactly. Yeah, it was the entire community. And that was really super because of our- we would send out a quarterly newsletter. Marcy Smith: This was postal mail about ... . Sue Welch: Postal mail. This is in sizeToby Jenkins: This one's an email. Sue Welch: This is in size 11 point font. See all these names? These are $10 donors to $10,000 donors. The entire community bought into this. It was a beautiful thing. Toby Jenkins: And it was all very smooth and unified, wasn't it? Seu Welch: Yes, yes. Everyone got along. Marcy Smith: Well, no. When we look at itSue Welch: Well, behind the scenes, we had to fight to get where we were, but everyone was just really pushing in the same direction. It was great that way. Marcy Smith: And again, it's tough to get- I'm sorry, lesbians onboard, 'cause they like to do their sports, they like to do the softball and all that kinda stuff and go to the bars. And so kinda pulling them out was a little difficult. So we did- so we- so it was like how many different ways can we slice this pie and serve it up to people to get people involved? So then we came up with the concept of the Women's Tea Dance. And also supporting women owned businesses and also provide nonprofit organizations the ability toSue Welch: Showcase. Marcy Smith: - Showcase their businesses to women. So imagine that, okay? So you got an all-women Women's Tea Dance, right? We are contacting, I don't know how many places we contacted and got no after no after no after no. No, we are not going to rent to you for a bunch of lesbians. I don't know what they thought it was gonna be. Some, I don't know, orgy or something like that. So we got turned down how many times and then we finally approached Frances. Sue Welch: So the last place I went to was the Greenwood Cultural Center. And I've been everywhere. Physically, meeting face-to-face with people. And so I met with Frances, told her who we were, what we were doing, that it was for ... campaign. 26 �Marcy Smith: She's director. Sue Welch: Frances Jordan, the Executive Director of the Greenwood Cultural Center. Marcy Smith: She, by the way, is still the Executive Director of the Greenwood today. Sue Welch: So I gave all my spiel and she said, "Well, Sue." And I expected a no. "Well, Sue, here at the Greenwood Cultural Center, we do not discriminate. So we'd be happy to have you." I was like, "Yay!" So at that first one and subsequent ones, we had 300- more than 300 lesbians from all across the city. And that was fantastic. Huge gatherings. Toby Jenkins: Now to pull in women, you also did the calendar girls. Marcy Smith: So yeah, there was a movie. I don't even know when the movie was, in the mid 90s or something. It was based on a true story. The calendar girls, which was an older group of women in Great Britain, who were trying to raise money for a wing to be added on to their very small hospital. So they came up with this idea to basically have a nudie calendar. Sue Welch: A boudoir calendar. Marcy Smith: A boudoir calendar. So we did the same thing, but what we did was- and I was really proud of these women that did this, 'cause we were partially Sue Welch: We were surprised by the women who said yes. Marcy Smith: Yeah, I mean, there were some pretty revealing photographs in this calendar. So what- so we didn't know if anybody was gonna- we didn't think anybody would buy the calendar. So we had them get sponsors. So they had to recruit as many people as possible to donate a minimum of like $250 or $500 or something like that to sponsor their month. That's how we raised. I mean, we were just happy to raise $5,000 at a time. $5,000 here, $5,000 there, to start building toward this million dollar, which was a monumental amount of money. When it was determined that that's what we were gonna need to do this, I mean, the community's likeSue Welch: Can't do it. Marcy Smith: "There's no way. You will never do that. Never do that." Sue Welch: The end point was $1.3 million. Toby Jenkins: And so there were naysayers, and there were people who were divisive, and there were people who may have been difficult. You had that, right? 27 �Sue Welch: Yeah, but not for long. Marcy Smith: And once the momentum started, itToby Jenkins: So I think I remember garden parties, the garden tour. Sue Welch: We did, we had a home and garden tour. Marcy Smith: Yeah, we did. Sue Welch: We really tried to model things that- the firemen did a calendar for United Way, so-and-so did a home and garden tour for whatever. So we try to model things that would make sense. That people would kind of already know how that worked and go, "Oh my gosh, so the gay community is doing that, great, let's get on to that." Toby Jenkins: What about the LGBT film festival? Was that alsoMarcy Smith: OUT OK. Sue Welch: So OUT OK, that was really progressive for the time. That was the first LGBT out film festival. Phillip Oh and Mark Bonney were in charge of that. They brought films from everywhere, amazing films, and all the proceeds went to the capital campaign. Marcy Smith: Yeah, talk about being ahead of its time. Sue Welch: Yeah. Marcy Smith: Now there's like gay film festival all the time. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So it was a long lengthy process of raising the money, but you were also creating community and building a unified vision. Very impressed that you were able to do that. But at the same time, you still had to be take care in the community. So there was community centers, yet during this time. We still had community centers and you wanna talk about some of the locations andMarcy Smith: Well, I think where we were, we were at 21st and Memorial, and I think that was a very difficult landlord. It ended up being a very difficult landlord situation. But for me personally, I was glad we got the heck out of Dodge out of that location. I think it was an oppressive location, just because of the color of it and the smell of the smoke. I mean, it just was not- it didn't feel healthy. Toby Jenkins: And it wasn't accessible there. Sue Welch: No. 28 �Marcy Smith: It wasn't welcoming. Toby Jenkins: You had to steps to go up. Sue Welch: No. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And then, got up there and the meeting room was downstairs, the bathrooms were downstairs, but we were- it was our center, and we were proud of it. Sue Welch: Yeah. Marcy Smith: Oh yeah. So the next location was the shopping center at 41st off of Yale, right across from Ricardo's Mexican restaurant, which is still there. And so that was, I would say, the best place we had been. And I'm gonna guess it was maybe 3,600 square feet, maybe. Sue Welch: Sounds about right. Yeah, maybe- 3,500. Marcy Smith: - 3,500, So it's give or take, right? And pretty much an open space, so not a lot of segregated space, where people could have private meetings or whatever they might've been doing and so but same kinda thing. We were there for a while, and then the landlord got a little weirded out and stuff. We were just trying to bide our time to get this going, so that we could own our own home instead of being kicked out eventually. And I say that- they just didn't wanna renew the lease. Or they just decided, given us notice and whatever, so. Toby Jenkins: What were some of the services that were being offered at the center? Sue Welch: Well, I'm glad you're bringing that up, Toby, because behind the scenes, while all this was going, certainly, Dennis and other people and the volunteers- Dennis was getting the Gill foundation to set up computer labs and all ofToby Jenkins: The Bohnett Foundation Sue Welch: Yes, the Bohnett. And all the services continuing, grief groups and game nights andToby Jenkins: HIV testing. Sue Welch: Yes, and counseling and all those things were still going on. Toby Jenkins: I can remember, just wanna throw this out there and get your thoughts on it. I can remember at that Center, at in the Highland Park Shopping Center, volunteering on a night where it was first time I'd ever been interacting. We had a transgender support group. 29 �So do you remember- we've talked about lesbian and gay men. Do you remember being an intentional outreach to transgender persons, or? Sue Welch: Not as far as with fundraising, because I don't think at that time we had a large group for the fundraising aspect. But certainly in the service, we established town halls finding out what people wanted, what we needed, so that we could provide that in this new place that was gonna be our permanent home. So absolutely in the services. Toby Jenkins: So you assess the community? Did y'all have surveys, or? Sue Welch: We did, at each Pride picnic, we had surveys. We had a large gathering at the library and we handed out surveys and collected information about what they want in the center, specifically as far as even rooms, art gallery, that sort of thing, kitchen, services they might want, locations they might want. Toby Jenkins: And so y'all were being paid to do all of this and you had a full-time position, right? Marcy Smith: No. Sue Welch: We had full-time positions at our jobs. Marcy Smith: : So every fundraising event for the Pyramid Project started off with a budgetSue Welch: Zero. Marcy Smith: - which was zero. That was what we started with. You're gonna donate this, you're gonna donate your time, you're gonna donate the goods, all that kinda thing. So our goal was that a lot of capital campaigns had budgets that as much as 25-30% would go to administrative overhead of what was being raised. Toby Jenkins: Paid to development workers. Marcy Smith: So our goal was to have 95% of the funds that we raised, go directly to the capital. So that meant 5% to do all this. And I think, ultimately, we ended up being aboutSue Welch: I think about seven. Marcy Smith: - 7-8% or something rather than 5%. So we were right around 92% of all the funds that were raised, stayed right there in the community foundation. That was the other thing. It was a big milestone, was going to Tulsa Community Foundation because it was about credibility. And so we needed to have our money at a place where it was managed for a place of credibility. So that was a huge milestone when we were able to have those 30 �funds placed at the Tulsa Community Foundation which they are still at today. So that was a big deal. That added some ... . Sue Welch: Yeah, through Dennis and Nancy, they introduced us to people there and got all that set up safe and safeguarded. So then, donors would feel even more comfortable. Toby Jenkins: So about how many years was the fundraising part of it? Marcy Smith: Six. Sue Welch: 6-7. Marcy Smith: Yeah, six, 2007 when we did it. Toby Jenkins: Did people grow fatigued from that? I mean, did theyMarcy Smith: Oh yeah. I mean, it didn't take too many years that when Sue and I would show up at a party, people were turning away. I mean, they knew we were gonna be pressing the flesh and, hi, how you doing? We haven't seen a donation from you in a while. But I mean, it just kinda got to be a joke. We were like, "Are we gonna get invited to anything this year?" Toby Jenkins: So I'm gonna take you back. This is your life. It's January 1st, 2000, the night after the Y2K fear. What were y'all doing on January 1st, 2000? Do you remember? Marcy Smith: Well, I can tell you what I was doing. I was head of the Y2K project at Tulsa County. So I spent that New Year's Eve in the computer room doing one of these. And it was a five-year project that I led. And I had the same budget from my boss which was, you're not gonna spend any money on this project. We weren't able to do that because of software costs, but it was a very small budget. So that's where I was. So I was in a computer room in Tulsa, Oklahoma that night. And it went perfectly, by the way. Sue Welch: Are you remembering a house party? Toby Jenkins: Yeah, on New Year's Day. Sue Welch: On New Year's Day. Marcy Smith: Oh, New Year's Day? Okay. Marcy Smith: New Year's Day, we had a house party at our house. Marcy Smith: Yeah, and invited several people. And I think we'd seen you peripherally, but this was your first time to really31 �Toby Jenkins: Be pulled into the project. Sue Welch: Yeah, yeah. To be ... . Toby Jenkins: My point isSue Welch: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: - I can remember getting invited to that on New Year's Day after we had all survived. And that was my first time to hear about it. The project to raise money for our permanent center. Now, I was very familiar with the center. Sue Welch: Sure. Toby Jenkins: But it was the first time I'd ever been included in that. And I had no money, but I was able to make just a little bitty tiny gift. But you made me feel like my little tiny gift was as important as the people who were writing the big checks. Sue Welch: It was. Toby Jenkins: So you spent five or six years raising this money and keeping the community focused on the prize. When did we buy the building? And do you wanna talk a little bit about the effort to finally purchase property? Sue Welch: So as we were getting, we set a goal that we would have a certain amount of money raised before we would even look at property. And we were reviewing a dozen or more properties over and over, as we got to that point. And Dennis called and said, "Hey, have you looked at this place at 4th and Kenosha?" And we're like, "Okay, we'll go look at that one." And so we called up the realtor who was listed there and I said, "Okay, great. I'm gonna have to talk to another realtor and tell him who we are and what we're looking for." And so went to his office and on his wall was a big picture of John F. Kennedy. I was like, "I think I'm okay." And so I met Max Tankersley and told him about who we were and he said, "Okay, great. I'd love to show you this". So we walked in and at the time, it had been a communications company, so there were wires literally everywhere. It was just full of communications things. But it was so solid because it used to be an oil company's building, where they built explosives to dig oil wells before they had the bits. So the walls are about 12 inches thick. It is just so solid. So walking through, it's really solid, it's not dirty, it's not dank, it's bright…Lots of windows, lots of space. We're thinking, "Oh my gosh, there's so much space here. But from these surveys, we could do this, we could do that, we could do all the 32 �things that the people are wanting." And so I think we probably called Dennis first and said, "Dennis, this is a really neat place." And we had a key group of donors who just kept donating, were donating substantially. And so, we rented two trolley cars. We had a nice little reception at a house in Terwilliger Heights. And we said, "We're gonna take you all to a place we want you to see that we believe this is gonna be our center." And so we got 'em all fed and liquored up and got 'em on the trolleys. And so we came in and several of them were like- because it wasn't rough compared to the things we've been looking at, but it wasn't fancy by any means. Marcy Smith: And grey. Sue Welch: And it was downtown, which was one of the locations people wanted, but not everyone. And so I think several of them went, "Oh, wow, this is really great, great vision." And some of 'em went, "Ugh, this is what you're picking? It was a little effort in getting people on board with that. So we created- we got together a group of designers and if you want to haveToby Jenkins: Gay designers. Sue Welch: Gay designers. And if you want to have fun, get a group of gay designers together and tell them, we're not paying them anything and everything they develop needs to come in free, all the accessories, all the furniture. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, but they have to raise the money to furnish the room. Sue Welch: And so that was fun. Kirk Holt, I appointed him as the chair, 'cause he's great at getting all those people together. So we developed these vision boards for each of the rooms and we had more people come and more people look, and that really helped with donations. This was, of course, after we bought the building, and that helped also engage people for volunteerism, if they couldn't give or if they wanted to do more, to physically work at the building in renovations. I served as the general contractor for the renovations and we had a ... . Marcy Smith: And she got paid zero. Sue Welch: And we had literally hundreds of volunteers working thousands of hours. The things we had to hire, have electricians, licensed plumbers, that sort of thing. We certainly did that. But I mean, so many people learned how to sheet rock, insulate things, tear down walls. Some of my happiest memories are remembering these guys and looking at you Dennis, doing that work, that heavy, hard work. 33 �Marcy Smith: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: So the building was purchased, let's talk about that morning after years of fundraising and this was the- you're trying to keep everybody rowing in the right direction. Tell us about that morning, when you invited the community to come and look at it and we raised the first rainbow flag. Sue Welch: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: From our flagpole and we had ... Marcy Smith: Talking about the Field of Dreams? Sue Welch: Nope. Marcy Smith: Oh, okay. Toby Jenkins: No, I'm talking about the morning we ... Marcy Smith: Oh, the grand opening. Toby Jenkins: Well, it wasn’t the grand opening, it was the morning that we ... Sue Welch: That was our first flag. Toby Jenkins: The building was ours, and we raised the flag for the first time. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: You had a bagpiper on the roof. Sue Welch: Yeah, yep, had a bagpiper on the roof, we had Rick Hollingsworth give us a blessing. Toby Jenkins: Probably, a thousand people showed up. Sue Welch: The first time so many people had even been in the building. And I remember it was so loud downstairs in the main hall. I was looking around, I'm not a loud speaker and I thought, "I've gotta find somebody, I've gotta get up on these stairs, I gotta find somebody to get the attention of this crowd. And I saw Rebecca Ungerman out there and I said, "Rebecca." And so I got Rebecca up on the stairs and everyone was milling about, crammed in there and just excited. And so she got the crowd's attention and we just had a little, here's your new home people, let's complete this project. Toby Jenkins: Yep, first time34 �Sue Welch: Yep. Toby Jenkins: - this was ours, it belonged to us. Sue Welch: Yeah, people were so excited. Toby Jenkins: Wasn't leased, wasn't rented, no landlord could take our mortgage away. Sue Welch: Exactly. Toby Jenkins: And we were able to raise our rainbow flag. Sue Welch: Yep, show who we were, know that we'd have signage on the building that it couldn't be taken away because that was a problem with so many of the places, moving so often caused breaks in services, not being able to identify our building, our storefront, where we were leasing, caused difficulty in people's access. And so now, we had a place we could put signage, have our flag, we had a corner in downtown Tulsa, in the heart of Oklahoma. Marcy Smith: And as most neighborhoods go after the gays move in, this area of Tulsa and downtown has exploded with development, exploded. Toby Jenkins: And here you have it, we can verify documentation that the gay folks revitalized downtown Tulsa you now at this point. Marcy Smith: Absolutely. Marcy Smith: This Pearl District, you have- absolutely right. Sue Welch: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: 'Cause it was the truth. Sue Welch: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: Because it was just, mostly downtown was abandoned buildings that were boarded up. Sue Welch: Yep. Toby Jenkins: Nobody lived down here. There weren't any stores or you didn't have people walking their pets, so. Sue Welch: Yeah. 35 �Toby Jenkins: But it's what we could afford and we got it. Tell us about that year we spent working on it, but at the same time, we were operating the centerSue Welch: Sure. Toby Jenkins: - with all of its servicesSue Welch: Sure. Toby Jenkins: - at its old location. Sue Welch: Marcy had a good job that allowed me to spend a lot of time during that time away from my practice. And so every Saturday and Sunday, we would have volunteers. One of my cohorts would help check 'em in and we give assignments. Some people would just be sweeping, some people would be putting up walls. Toby Jenkins: Or ladders. On ladders. Sue Welch: Yeah. Oh, on ladders, painting, cleaning, taking up tile from the floor. You name it. Tiling new bathroom floors, from A to Z. So volunteers full out Saturdays, Sundays, weekend after weekend after weekend to get this accomplished on a shoestring, but properly and still involving people. That was as much part of it as anything. It's one thing to pay for everything to get done and come on in. We created this beautiful jewel box for you. But it's another thing to have people go, I created this. I helped open these doors. I painted this door. That was huge. Toby Jenkins: So tell us about the grand opening, and the Field of Dreams, dinners, andSue Welch: So the Field of Dreams, we did have requirements because we were changing the use from what it was previously to a public space. So we had to create more accessible ramps, elevators, doorways, things like that, and all that added up to quite some expense. So our first official event here was called the Field of Dreams. If we build it, they will come. And so we had volunteers in softball uniforms, and we had teams thatToby Jenkins: Cute gay boys. Marcy Smith: Yeah. Marcy Smith: We had team captains. Sue Welch: Not girls in softball uniforms. Marcy Smith: We had team captains, so it was baseball teams and it was a competition. 36 �Sue Welch: So they were bidding against each other. There was nothing they were gonna win. There were no prizes. There were no auction items. This was full-out cash. They were playing against each other, and we raised all the money, over $130,000 cash, that night without any auction items to do all of the ADA requirements. Marcy Smith: And it was adopting rooms. So these were concept drawings of what the various spaces were gonna be. So if you were a kitchen person, or you were interested in the library, or the art gallery, the theater. That was really great to have those concept drawings, so that people could visualize what this incredible space was gonna look like, based on the town halls, and what they said they wanted in the space. So we were able to give 'em pretty much everything they asked for. The other thing I remember, too, is the size of the building, okay? So we were at 3,500 square feet. This facility is 18,000 square feet. We got so much pushback from, are you kidding me? You're never gonna be able to fill that space. Sue Welch: We don't need that. Marcy Smith: .. We don't need that space. And here we are, nearly 20 years later, and in my opinion, we could add on a few places, but. Toby Jenkins: So any details about the grand opening? I'm trying to remember. Sue Welch: I remember, we did balloons, 'cause at that timeMarcy Smith: We did an non-environmental thing. Sue Welch: - we were not that environmentally conscious. I'm sorry, I apologize. Marcy Smith: We released balloons. Sue Welch: But we did have a bagpiper on the roof, which was really cool. Everyone was just so thrilled, and walking through the place. It was just giddy, giddying us, it was wonderful. Marcy Smith: Smudging, blessing the building. People laying hands on the building. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Marcy Smith: Good energy. Sue Welch: It was. Toby Jenkins: ... American blessings. 37 �Marcy Smith: Yes, yes. Sue Welch: It was good energy. Toby Jenkins: And then we moved in. Sue Welch: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And the programs began. Sue Welch: And the programs began. And yes, if you build it, they will come. It's absolutely true. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Sue Welch: Given the proper leadership, and we had such great leadership then, and people pushing for great programs. Toby Jenkins: And so prior to this, we would have these huge meetings or events. We would have to rent space, or we would have to cram into whatever place we had. I can remember many, many things that we would use in those other spaces. Or when the sodomy laws were struck down, we didn't have a big enough space, so we had to use a restaurant on Cherry Street. But then this building finally had enough space that if we could mobilize and fight for our communitySue Welch: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: - Celebrate, remember those. I mean, it became a place where people did their funerals, their commitment ceremonies, and where we met for meetings to fight for our rights. Sue Welch: Yeah. Yeah, we could celebrate and mobilize and honor each other in our own home. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember some of the major events that this building was here to witness and testify to? Marcy Smith: Well, legalized same-sex marriage for number one. But also it becoming a hub for pride. So that we could centralize pride activities, which was really pretty cool to be able to do that. Otherwise, we were renting, leasing space to try to do pride events. We're not without negative things happening, and one of the things that wasn't publicized at the time that we did it but we did it for safety was, we put bulletproof glass in this building because we felt that at some point, unfortunately, that may be needed. And so we had a 38 �drive-by shooting in this building and thankfully, the bulletproof glass did its job. So never more thankful to have that particular decision to save people ... – [Bullet-resistant glass was not initially installed. It was added in 2017 after a drive-by shooting from a pellet gun made 13 holes in the front windows and front door. Wes Smith, an OkEq member, challenged the community to send in $13 each to replace the glass. The challenge went viral, people across the country and world sent in money. In total, more than $33,000 was committed which allowed OkEq to replace all downstairs windows and the front door with bullet-resistant glass.] Toby Jenkins: So do you remember when the sodomy laws were struck down, we celebrated at a restaurant, but the next major event was when gays were allowed to be in the military ... . And do you remember the events around that? Sue Welch: So yes, we were able to celebrate that in a fantastic way and we actually created the veterans lobby here, top second floor, off the elevator. And then another pivotal time ... Toby Jenkins: And we ... - just a minute. We invited military recruiters to come to this ... . Sue Welch: That's right, that's right. Toby Jenkins: And they came all the way from where, the Pentagon. Sue Welch: Fantastic, yes. That's right ... . Toby Jenkins: And we became the very first place in the United States where gay people served, signed up to join the military. We were the face of that on the front page of 1900 newspapers the next day in the heartland, in the middle of the country. Sue Welch We were also because of Mary and Sharon and Gay and Sue and were able to celebrate the pivotal gay marriage right here, in the center, with those ladies here in Tulsa. So yeah, so many pivotal things here. Toby Jenkins: Remember when the White House came to visit, when we got behind the Affordable Care Act cause we knew we needed to sign people up so that Obamacare, and they sent a representative here 'cause we had signed up 147 people in one day. Sue Welch: It's fantastic. It's fantastic, yeah. Toby Jenkins: So Sue, you called it the field of dreams. Why did you call it the field of dreams? Sue Welch: Because if we build it, they will come. 39 �Toby Jenkins: And did they come? Sue Welch: They did, and actually even more, in more numbers than I dreamed. I mean the programming and Toby, I know you're greatly responsible for a lot of that programming that started happening. And the people upon people, upon people who came and had fun or had a service or were recognized and seen or just got to be able to be with their family, their LGBTQ+ family, just people fill this place the whole entire time, all the time. I know I would get update calls from you saying how many people had come and what pivotal help had been given to certain people that day. Just incredible. Marcy Smith: Well, saving lives. Sue Welch: Absolutely, saving lives. Marcy Smith: People who were at the end of their rope. I mean, just needing a place to come where they can literally walk in the door. Sue Welch: ... you're safe. Marcy Smith: Yes, this is a safe place. Sue Welch: A safe affirming place. Toby Jenkins: So you spent a lot of work for the community to make this happen, and on behalf of the community, the LGBTQ+ community, I wanna say thank you so much for that. Any regrets about it? Sue Welch: None. Marcy Smith: None. Sue Welch: None. And I have to say there were so many hundreds of people behind us who really made it happen, who made it a success. We were just able to drive some of it. Toby Jenkins: So this is a- in 2026 and you ladies are moving into your middle age years. Marcy Smith: Thank you for that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: There were some difficult times, 'cause just because we had the building doesn't mean- I mean, we've had some vandalism, we've had physical threats, we've had some deaths, some heartaches, and we've had some other challenges too. You just didn't 40 �hang up your hats and say, we're done helping the community or being involved. What have you had to do in the last few years? Sue Welch: So things were rocking along really great for a while. We got some breathing time and just having fun with friends and things. But there were some individuals, boards, leaderships, that didn't go through what all of us went through. They didn't go through the turmoil and the trial and the difficulties that all of us went through. They're a younger generation, they grew up being able to be married, they grew up with less offense to them, they grew up being able to put their partner's picture on their office desk. Just so different from us. When some younger leadership, I think I'll just categorize it that way, came in, I don't think it was- they had less ownership. So, COVID came and that changed everything for everybody. But generationally, I think we're significantly different in that. We like to gather physically together and COVID made that really difficult. So coming out of that, changes started happening. We noticed we weren't getting notices about things happening at the center, even post-COVID. It seemed there was less going on. People weren't gathering at the center. We didn't reactivate those activities and events and things for people to physically gather. As the world did, we all became a little more siloed. So I think we lost a lot of interest, funding, relativity during that time. In February of 2024, we got a notice saying that the organization needed to raise $100,000 to keep the doors open. We were in shock. And so we met up with some people and said, "What's going on here? What's happening?" And so Marcy and I, thanks to some people, we were asked to be on the gala committee that year. We were generously given the leeway to co-chair the gala. And fortunately, we kinda did our thing. We've done a lot of galas. Well, by the gala committee, we were generously offered to co-chair the gala. We had leadership difficulty. I was coming in, again, as old lesbians going, "What do you know?" I mean, that was an old time. You can't do anything for us. And we had a hard time not going ... listen to whippersnappers. This is how it was. So ultimately, that gala was the highest grossing and highest net gala in OkEq’s history. And we were able to really build up our coffers again, and keep us open and keep the center going and alive. Marcy Smith: In 90 days. Sue Welch: Yeah, in a very short time. Marcy Smith: There was no one chairing this. It was not gonna happen. 41 �Sue Welch: Yeah, there was not gonna be a gala. We even had foundations tell us, "You should not be having a gala right now." And we said, "For two reasons. We have to have a gala. We must have a gala. One, of course, for the fundraising. And, we know we can do this. Two, for the community. Because our community has scattered to the winds. And we need to bring them back together." Toby Jenkins: So we talked about the pandemic, and we talked about the financial challenges the organizations have, and we've talked about generational differences, andbut we also have political issues that are impacting our community. It's 2026, so as your sign-off message, I've asked you to think about this. Do you have a challenge, or a message, or a final words that you'd like to give to people who might see this, and either feel the motivation to get involved, or maybe even have an explanation of how important it is? Do you have any final words for our viewers? Sue Welch: You go first. Marcy Smith: I would say that don't discount having a place, a physical place. I have an IT background and we're in a virtual world at this point, but there is so much in life, especially in a human experience, virtual stuff cannot give you and provide you that connection that you have to have by just being in the same space with people who support you, and that you can provide fine services. The whole point of this Center was for it to be a resource center for people. We didn't think that we were gonna be all things to all people, but we wanted to have a hub, a place where the organization could also work with other organizations to provide services to people, and to have a gathering place for us, and we're seeing this. We are seeing this in the world now. We are seeing psychological studies coming out about how this isolationism, and being at home, and this whole virtual reality, if you will, it's not. It's not real. What is real is being with people, engaging with people, celebrating with people, having really hard times with people. It's a human experience. It cannot be replaced with technology. That's my background, and I know that. And so it's about having a home and a place to come back to. And supporting an organization that's going to help our community be a better place. Not just the LGBTQ+ community, but other members in this community we call home, we call Tulsa, reaching out to other organizations to help in that effort, because it's a tough time, and funding is getting ripped out from non-profits. They are literally facing their demise. National public Radio… all of these things that we held to be, assumed that it was always gonna be here, always thought we would have public funding for the arts, really. 42 �Always thought we would have freedom of speech, thought we would have freedom of the press. The press is what is gonna hold our elected officials accountable, in addition to us. So we are at a really, really tough time, and it has been set on fire because of technology. Because we are not gathering together. Because we're holed up in our respective places, and we've got to come together again. We've got to support each other again in a physical way, in addition to a technological way. And having a home that is a place where we can gather, where we can rally, where we can figure out strategies to do this, is really important because if the decision is ever made to lose this space, then we become invisible again. They, whoever they are succeeded. They don't have a place to call home anymore. They don't have a place to gather anymore. They don't have a place to rally. They don't have a place to celebrate our artists. They don't have a place for our performers to come. They don't have a place to have counseling. Transgendered individuals don't have a place to have health care. We don't have a- we're burning books, and we're banning books. We don't have a library anymore to celebrate that aspect. All of these things are here for anyone who wants to come in and celebrate LGBTQIA+ individuals as a community, but as a community, as an accepting and affirming community that we call home. And that's Tulsa. It's so much more than a physical building, and that's where I would say, generationally moving forward, I hope that you all can understand how important the space is to maintain. Can we change the space? Absolutely. Can we change up the different things that are here? Absolutely. That's what a home's all about. It evolves and it changes as we need it to change. But I am hopeful and lay this on the table for folks coming behind us, please keep it. Please figure out how to keep it. Make it your own, make it evolve and change as our needs change. But allowing it to go away, I think, will be a grave mistake for our community. And I'm not saying that it is. I'm not saying that it is. But I think there are individuals out there that feel that we don't need a space to call our own, where we can celebrate each other, a physical space. And home is a really big word, encompasses a lot of things. Sue Welch: I really couldn't say any better than that, but just to say that, when you lose something that so many people have identified with, you lose your identity. When you don't communicate to every group, not just the current generation, but every group, about what's here for them. When you don't have physical group meetings, people physically gathering in large groups, that sounds scary to some people now, just because of COVID, but we have to have face-to-face large groups to support each other. 43 �The harder it gets politically, financially, the more we need to physically gather and we have our home to do it in. So let's not lose that, let's not take it for granted, let's use it. Toby Jenkins: This is perfect. So while you're the CP's ambassadors, called them the Iron Lady, Madam Prime Minister, was my nicknames for them. What are you presently doing? I mean what do you- your careers and the work that you do now? Sue Welch: Well, we are entrepreneurial. We own a business together called OsteoStrong, which is a wellness center that focuses on increasing your bone density, your muscular strength and your ligament and tendon strength. That's healthy for everybody. We have over 300 members. We're loving it and we do have some of our community members who are also OsteoStrong members and we do love that. We garden, we travel, we've loved that forever. I serve as a trustee again on the Board of Trustees for Oklahomans For Equality. Toby Jenkins: In your medical practice there, you're focusing a lot on issues with the emerging, growing older adult population, so that you're still serving a community, every aspect of it. Sue Welch: Sure, sure. Toby Jenkins: Anything else for us and our founder. Do you have any other things or archivist any things, before we bring our interview to a close? Sue Welch: I just wanna say thank you to all of you for all the work you're doing and have done, because we could not have done anything, any of this without you. Amanda Thompson: Yeah, no, it's great. And thank you guys for sharing this. And as the one youngster in the room, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you're saying and the stuff you talk about is really important. I'm personally very lucky and very happy to be a part of furthering those connections and helping people just get the word out, how important these things are. Sue Welch: Thank you, Amanda. Marcy Smith: We have to pay it forward. Amanda Thompson: Yeah. Marcy Smith: We do. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, thank you so much. You have been listening toMarcy Smith: Marcy Smith. 44 �Sue Welch: Sue Welch. Toby Jenkins: - here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center on January the 16th, 2026. Addendum: Sue Welch requested the following be added to the transcript. "My Dad, Lloyd Welch was a 3rd generation brick mason and builder. He helped with the initial renovation when we bought the building for the Dennis R Neill Equality Center. He taught volunteers and various friends many skills that we needed during that time to get the building ready. He taught and worked with Stan Smalts, Dale Tune and Marty Steinmetz, replacing and hanging exterior doors; David Hoot patching interior plaster walls; Norm Kopp tuck pointing worn brick exterior wall joints of the building, as well as many other tasks with other volunteers. He had a great time with the guys and they with him. They all really appreciated learning from him. Some of them even took the skills they learned from our volunteer efforts into their own lives later as well. My Mom, Joan Welch provided moral encouragement and cheerleading support during that time filled with physical work. We would all break for lunch in the garage, now the Lynn Riggs Theatre. Nancy McDonald, everyone's Mom, brought cookies for snacks every weekend for the volunteer crew. It was a fantastic time of camaraderie, hard work and joy!" 45 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Sue Welch and Marcy Smith Interview Description An account of the resource Sue Welch and Marcy Smith share their personal journeys, highlighting their experiences growing up in Oklahoma and navigating their identities as members of the LGBTQ+ community. Marcy recounts her childhood in Tulsa, her education at Oklahoma Christian College, and her early awareness of her sexual orientation. She reflects on the challenges faced by LGBTQ+ individuals in a conservative environment, including the need for stealth and the importance of finding community. Sue shares her upbringing in Ponca City and her academic journey at OSU. Both women discuss their relationships, the evolution of their identities, and the significance of community support in their lives.<br /><br />Marcy and Sue recount their involvement with Oklahomans for Equality and the development of the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. They reflect on the challenges of coming out to their families, the societal pressures they faced, and the importance of creating a safe space for LGBTQ+ individuals in Tulsa. Their stories are filled with humor, resilience, and a sense of belonging, showcasing the power of love and community in overcoming adversity. In this episode, Marcy Smith and Sue Welch share their inspiring journey of establishing a community center for the LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa, Oklahoma. They successfully organized fundraising events, such as house parties and the Wild Hearts Ball, to raise awareness and funds. Their determination led to significant milestones, including securing a $10,000 grant from a New York foundation and eventually purchasing a permanent space for their community center, which became a hub for support, celebration, and activism.<br /><br />The conversation highlights the importance of physical spaces for community gathering, especially in a time when virtual connections are prevalent. Marcy and Sue emphasize the need for ongoing support and engagement within the community, particularly in light of recent political challenges. They reflect on the center's role in pivotal moments for LGBTQ+ rights, including the legalization of same-sex marriage and the repeal of discriminatory laws. Their message is clear: maintaining a physical home for the community is essential for fostering connection, support, and resilience against adversity. Subject The topic of the resource Sue Welch and Marcy Smith Oral History Interview from January 16, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sue Welch, Marcy Smith, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 16, 2026 2026 AIDS AIDS/HIV Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill Dennis R. Neill Equality Center Equality Center Equality Center Opening Gay marriage HIV HIV/AIDs interview LGBT marriage Marcy Smith OHR OkEq Equality Center OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma Christian College Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahomans for Human Rights Oklahomans for Human Rights - Tulsa Chapter oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU Pyramid Project same sex marriage Sue Welch Toby Jenkins TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) video Wild Hearts Ball https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/32e307a0685da0fb5f8040d6f08cb1b1.pdf fd3f6b5c66d8a54057fa6de42efc2548 PDF Text Text �� https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/b2ad68bab393a8daeab66932c8b732cc.mp4 695b4045be1db9636b36095e53ee809b https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/d80dffbe6a60cfe98ea0c621c945cda6.pdf 3d4ca6adb7c861d4cb1bb9201eb77d39 PDF Text Text 1 oklahomans for equality Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Barry Hensley and Terry Baxter Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: June 30, 2026 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video July 10, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org �2 About Barry Hensley and Terry Baxter: Summary This episode features a conversation with two long-time partners from Tulsa, Oklahoma, sharing their life stories, experiences with the LGBTQ+ community, and insights into the history of gay life in Texas and Oklahoma. Discover their journey through love, family rejection, activism, and resilience. In this episode, Terry Baxter and Barry Hensley share their experiences with LGBTQ+ advocacy, their careers in public service, and personal stories of love and resilience. Discover how their efforts have shaped community acceptance and the importance of authenticity. Keywords LGBTQ+ history, Tulsa, Oklahoma, gay rights, family rejection, activism, HIV/AIDS, coming out, community, personal stories LGBTQ+ advocacy, Tulsa, public service, marriage equality, community activism, personal stories, diversity, inclusion, history, Pride Chapters 00:00 Celebrating Pride and Public Service 01:59 A Love Story: How They Met 06:06 Life in Dallas: The Early Years 09:50 Facing the AIDS Crisis Together 12:03 Childhood and Family Background 19:56 College Life and Early Relationships 27:48 Moving to Tulsa: A New Beginning 30:40 Coming Out and Family Dynamics 36:10 Reconciliation and Family Relationships �3 38:38 Childhood and Family Background 44:42 High School Experiences and Friendships 50:10 College Life and Activism 01:03:37 Community Connections and Support 01:04:12 Early Community Engagement and Pride Events 01:07:54 Library Displays and LGBTQ Representation 01:13:17 Involvement of PFLAG and Community Outreach 01:15:27 Building LGBTQ Literature Collections 01:18:03 Experiences at College Hill Presbyterian Church 01:29:14 Marriage Equality Journey and Community Support 01:32:52 A Memorable Wedding in Victoria 01:34:36 The Importance of Legal Recognition in Relationships 01:36:01 Insights from Working in Municipal Government 01:49:30 Navigating Politics and Civil Service 01:52:06 The Evolution of Anti-Discrimination Policies 02:03:48 Reflections on Life and Legacy Barry Hensley and Terry Baxter Oral History Interview June 30, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Good morning, it is June 30th, 2026, the last day of Pride Month. And so, viewers, we have for you a very special treat. Individuals who spent their life in public service. It's such an honor and we have so much respect for them. Today, our interview and panel is Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality, Mary Bishop-Baldwin, here a part of the archives. And the marriage plaintiff from the marriage equality lawsuit. And this is Toby Jenkins. We're in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library at the Dennis R Neill Equality Center, headquarters of Oklahomans for Equality. And the dead center of the country, we're the gay outpost in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Today, our guests are very special to me and always been an inspiration. Could you please introduce yourselves? Barry Hensley: I'm Barry Hensley. Terry Baxter: I'm Terry Baxter. Toby Jenkins: Terry Baxter. And just give us your age. �4 Barry Hensley: I am 67. Terry Baxter: I am 72. Toby Jenkins: And you look marvelous. And just to blow our audience away, how long have you gentlemen been a couple? Terry Baxter: 46 years. Toby Jenkins: Yes. So we're just going to get started. And they've had incredible eyewitness accounts of our region and this part of the United States. But I just, if it's all right with our panel, I'd like to start at the very beginning part, how they met each other. And then we'll work backwards from the early part of your life. Barry Hensley: Sure. Toby Jenkins: And then your careers over the last 47 years. All right. So tell us the good stuff. Tell us, boys, how you met. Terry Baxter: I went to the University of Texas at Arlington for my undergraduate. And I met a guy there and we became friends. And he ran a flower shop in a mall when he wasn't at school. And so we stayed friends after I graduated from college. And every year he'd have a Halloween party, and people would dress up and come over and have fun. And Barry also went to University of Texas at Arlington. But being younger than me, I never knew he was there or anything. But he also met this mutual friend because he would go to the mall when he was bored and buy flowers for the apartment that he was living in. Barry Hensley: I’d go to the record stores and the bookstores. Terry Baxter: And all that stuff. So we ended up, both of us, going to the same party one year at this guy's house for Halloween. And we met each other at a Halloween party. I was dressed up in a bad toga. I looked like a, and I had a beard and a wreath over my head. Barry Hensley: It was the animal house era. Terry Baxter: Yeah. So I kind of looked like an animal house victim. And he was dressed up like a, I guess, what? Barry Hensley: I had a World War II sailor outfit on and a little hat and a necklace. So maybe an Andrews’ sister, maybe. Something like that. And I was very, very shy. Very withdrawn. And I was there with a friend. I kind of stuck by him. Because I didn't know anybody except the host. And everywhere I went in that house, Terry was right there. I'd go in the dining room to get something to eat and there's Terry. And I'd go in the living room where people were watching TV and there's Terry. Wherever I went, Terry was. Terry Baxter: I was magic. Barry Hensley: So we hit it off pretty fast. And the following Tuesday was election day, 1980, November 4th, I guess it was. And we had arranged a date to go to the Granada �5 Theater out in East Dallas to watch Elizabeth Taylor double feature, Cat on a Hot Tin Roof and Butterfield Eight. And so Terry has come to the condo where I was staying. There were four of us living there, college years, you know. A whole pile of us in this condo. And Terry knocks on the door to pick me up for this date. And I let him in. I introduced him to my friends. And he said, what are you all doing? And they said, oh, we're watching the election results. Reagan is ahead. And Terry said, oh, good. And I said, WHAT? Terry Baxter: That was almost the beginning of the end. Barry Hensley: Almost the beginning of the end. We managed to work it out. But that was how we met. Terry Baxter: Well, Anderson. Barry Hensley: I know. I voted for John Anderson that year. I was so irritated with some of the stuff that Jimmy Carter had done, which of course I'd love to have back now. But at the time it seemed like... Terry Baxter: I'd like to have Reagan back now. Barry Hensley: I know. Yeah. So that's how we met. Toby Jenkins: In Texas. Barry Hensley: In Texas, Dallas. Toby Jenkins: So the city of Tulsa owes Texas a debt of gratitude. You met in Texas and was it love at first sight or did you, I mean, were you able to overlook his... Barry Hensley: I was unaccustomed to such attention, so it took me a while to kind of figure out, you know, what this was like. Terry Baxter: It was okay. Barry Hensley: So, I hadn't really been much of a dater or anything, and I didn't really have a lot of experience. I was 20, but it wasn't really part of my reality, and so it was a new experience for me. So, it took about till January before we finally decided that we were probably going to try to make a go of staying together. I think I moved in later that spring or early summer. Toby Jenkins: In Arlington? Barry Hensley: Well, it was in Dallas. I was commuting, actually, with Tom Neal. He was another one of the roommates, and he was getting his architecture graduate degree at UTA, and I was still getting my communications bachelor's degree at UTA, so we would carpool every morning from Dallas to Arlington. Terry Baxter: So while he was carpooling to go to school, I was carpooling to go to work. Barry Hensley: But it was good. Dallas was fun at that time, in the early 80s. It was a lot of fun to be down there. �6 Toby Jenkins: What were kind of some of the things that y'all did? I mean, did you go to the Cedar Springs afternoon gig? Barry Hensley: Oh, yeah. Cedar Springs was really hopping, the restaurants and the gift shops, and the Village Station was there. We weren't really bar people. I mean, Terry had been, like the Old Plantation was. The Old Old Plantation, which was downtown Dallas. So we didn't really do the bar stuff, but it was so exciting to be in that place at that time. Divine came in to do a book signing at one of the bookstores, it's like, wow, this is crazy. Crossroads Market. Crossroads Market. And just a fun, fun neighborhood to be in. I did have a friend, another, it was Tom and Laurie and a friend of mine named Al. The four of us were living together on Cedar Springs, just north of the Strip. And Al was a playboy, and he liked to stay out late. And one night I got a call, the phone rang for us, a landline back then, and asked me to come pick him up. And he had run down, he was walking back from the bars and had been accosted on the street. He was at one of the toll booths at the Dallas North Tollway, which was right off Cedar Springs there. And so I picked him up and we went right over to St. Paul's Hospital. They really worked him over. That was the only time that really happened. I don't think we ever felt afraid or anything at that time in the Cedar Springs area. Terry Baxter: We didn't walk around by ourselves at two in the morning, in the middle of the night. Barry Hensley: That wasn't, no, I've always been an early to bed and late to rise sort of person. Terry Baxter: He's early to bed and I'm late to rise, make that work. Toby Jenkins: It should have been, at the time, the proliferation of gay bars as finding ourselves all across the country and bars opening up all over the place. Barry Hensley: J.R.'s was there, Hunky's was there. And they're still there. Yeah, J.R.'s is still there, yeah. Terry Baxter: And every bar had their own kind of clientele. So no matter what you were into, you always had a place to go and feel, at least feel that other people were kind of like you were. Toby Jenkins: So this would have been the 1980s? Barry Hensley: We were there until I graduated in 83 and was living with Terry then. He had bought a condo down off of Maple, still in the neighborhood. And I was having trouble getting a job. And he worked for MCI, the telephone company. And you were a regional manager, is that what it's called? And so he managed to get me a job temporarily, we thought, when the mail girl had to go on pregnancy leave and I filled in for her and they liked me. So I stayed and they found another spot for me at the customer service office. Terry Baxter: He did a much better job than she did. �7 Barry Hensley: And so it was great. We were both working for MCI. That was the company at that time. Man, they were giving Ma Bell a run for her money. And Sprint was hot on our tails, and it was exciting to work there. It was a lot of fun. Toby Jenkins: But it was pre-cell phone. Barry Hensley: Right, right. This is 1983, 84. Toby Jenkins: Okay, just curious, you're in Dallas, which had a pretty large organized gay movement. And you just, young men, you just found each other and got with each other. Do you remember at that time when you began to hear about AIDS and HIV infections? Barry Hensley: We have always been, one of the things that was so frustrating to me is that if Mary's suit [referring to Mary Bishop-Baldwin and the marriage equality lawsuit] had come before the Supreme Court in the 80s and we had gotten that passed back then and the American public was able to get on at that time, which would have encouraged young men to partner up, you know, we were off the market basically, I guess is a way to say it, at that time. So we avoided that situation. Lost so many friends. Absolutely heartbreaking. Terry Baxter: I was in the Turtle Creek Chorale at the time. Yeah. Barry Hensley: When they first started. Toby Jenkins: The Gay Men’s Chorus. Terry Baxter: Yes, and I guess my first problem with AIDS was having friends getting sick and dying that were in the choir with me. One of the unfortunate events was we had a concert and the guy who was supposed to sing one of the tenor solos got too sick to sing, and so I just got to sing his solo for him and I felt, in a way, I felt good because here was my chance to sing a solo, but then you're singing because somebody else is sick and not able to sing, and when you're a singer, that's a very important part of your life, and it was very crazy that you know that people were treating it like it was his problem rather than a disease and or something he did that he deserved, instead of just luck or bad luck. We both are thankful that we got each other when we did, because we both have had so many friends pass because of HIV/AIDS and other things too. But if we had been continuing dating and doing the typical gay lifestyle that the Bible Thumpers talk about at that time, we might have been subject to that bad luck as well. Barry Hensley: As I said, that wasn't really our reality. Yeah, we didn't. We didn't date a lot and go out a lot, so I don't know what our you know who knows what your chances I mean I had. Terry Baxter: I could count on two hands and I had one longtime boyfriend who's still a good friend of both of ours- yeah, our best friends, yeah, but you know, that was the extent. Barry Hensley: I was ready to settle down with the white picket fence when I was 14. �8 Toby Jenkins: Beautiful, okay. So thank you so much for starting right there. But you know you found each other, you got with each other and you were an eyewitness to history together. But you have a pre-story before you got together. So let's pick that up. Terry, tell us a little bit about your childhood, your family background and your when you came out as gay or whenever you decided to live your authentic life. Terry Baxter: Okay, let's see, I was born in the 50s and in Dallas, Texas. You barely made it to elementary school in Dallas and you know, when you're in elementary school there's no gay or straight. You're just a person. And you know some of the videos we've watched there. They've talked about being bullied and stuff a lot. I'm sure I was kind of effeminate because you look at pictures of me, but you know, if anybody tried to bully me, I would just turn to them say, look, you bully me. Your parents are going to get a lawsuit and you don't want that to be your responsibility and they go. They didn't know what to do with being faced with reality instead of somebody wanting to fight back or run. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: And what made you have the presence as a child to say I'll sue you? Terry Baxter: I was a. I was a- what do you call it? Smartass. And that may be what kept me from being bullied more, because I could speak rings around other people. In fourth grade I had a teacher and a friend of mine. We were sitting in the back of the class. I usually sat near the front of the class because I didn't want to be distracted, but in this English class I was sitting in the back for some reason and we were talking and she was up there like Charlie Brown's teacher. So she says: Mr. Baxter, yes, ma'am, you're back there having a conversation. Would you please tell me what you just said? Well, I just said, and I said sure, and I quoted her verbatim because part of my brain was listening to her and part of it was involved in the conversation. So I was even kind of smart. I got all A's on grades, but then I always got marked down on citizenship because I wasn't. You know, I was. You know, Terry's a good student, but he needs to learn how to keep his mouth shut. Barry Hensley: And somehow, he never got fired. Figure out how that happened. Terry Baxter: Because I was smarter than the people I was working for, and so my father worked for the government, federal government, General Services Administration- and they built a new federal building in Fort Worth and so half of the government workers who had positions in Dallas were transferred to Fort Worth. And so that would happen to coincide with me leaving elementary school and going into junior high school. And my sister was sad because she was a freshman in high school, and all the people she had grown up with, she wasn't gonna be going to high school. And my brother was one year younger than me, so he was in sixth grade, so he didn't get to graduate from elementary school. Not that we really had any official thing like they do now when you graduate from every grade you go to. So we moved to Fort Worth, and I went to junior high and high school in Fort Worth. �9 When I went back to my reunions, I was happy to see how many gay people there were, but upset that I didn't know that they were when I was in high school, because we just didn't talk about things like that. Toby Jenkins: So did you know that you had feelings that were different than most of your classmates? Terry Baxter: Yeah, even in elementary school, we lived across the street from a 23acre park with a recreation center that had two basketball areas and a swimming pool and all that kind of stuff. And I would go watch the basketball games, not because I liked basketball, but because I liked seeing the guys in the shorts run around on the basketball floor. That wasn't in my head, I wasn't thinking I'm gonna go watch the guys in the skimpy shorts play basketball, or I wouldn't be thinking I'm gonna go look at the guys in the speedos in the swimming pool. It's just what I innately was attracted to, but I didn't think about it. So I don't say I didn't know why, because there was no knowledge of anything. It's just, I recollect as being an older person in high school that I, yes, there were signs of that when I was in as far back as elementary school. But there was never any action on it, because it was, you know, I became a Christian when I was 12, and... Toby Jenkins: What was your family background? Terry Baxter: My dad was a Methodist, my mother was a Baptist. My mother grew up in South Georgia, where they still have Confederate statues in the park. And my dad grew up in Chicago, so we had a blended, so we would go one week to the Baptist church, one week to the Methodist church, back and forth. And one time, my sister and brother and I just got together and said, we wanna join a church. And they said, well, which one do you wanna join? We said, the Methodist church. So I guess we were progressives even back then as kids. But, and later on in life, one of the interim pastors at my current church, when we were going between pastors, asked, how did you reconcile being gay with being Christian? And I said, well, there was never a reason to reconcile it, because I was Christian first, before I was sexual, anything. And then when I became having a sexual awareness, it was just another part of me. It had nothing to do with my Christianity. And so there was nothing for me to reconcile with. It was for other people to reconcile. Toby Jenkins: It wasn't a faith struggle? Terry Baxter: I never had a faith struggle, because God loved me, and it had nothing to do with my sex or the color of my hair or anything. So in high school, I didn't. I mean, it was funny that I found out about all these people that were gay, who they must have known each other was gay, but I never knew it. But I was the good kid that would go to, I'd go to school. After school was over, the church we went to was across the street from the school. So we'd go over there in the youth room and play pool and listen to records, early 70s records, Led Zeppelin and all that stuff on the turntable. So- �10 Barry Hensley: And you're still friends with those folks? Terry Baxter: Yeah. Went 50th reunion, and I mean, a couple of them we visited when we were in San Diego. AndBarry Hensley: Visiting another one next week in Portland. Terry Baxter: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And this, you would have graduated from Fort Worth High School? Terry Baxter: Yeah, Paschal High School in Fort Worth. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been what year? Terry Baxter: 72. Toby Jenkins: And how many would have been in your graduating class? How big was that? Terry Baxter: 830. Toby Jenkins: So it was a large...is that a suburban school? Terry Baxter: It was the original Fort Worth High School, and it's not downtown, but it's close to downtown, and they built other schools as the city grew out. And so it was... and then at the time, I would have had 1,200 people in my graduating class, but the year I was a senior, they split, they built a new school, and some of the people went to that school. Toby Jenkins: So you went from there to Arlington to school, right into college? Terry Baxter: Right, right into college. I moved into a dorm, didn't know anybody, had a strange roommate. He brought a deep fat fryer into the room, because that's what he wanted to cook with, because his parents owned some kind of restaurant in Tyler, Texas, and he grew up eating deep fat fried everything. I'm just thinking about that deep fat fryer and all that grease and everything in the dorm room, and the smell. Barry Hensley: Don't think they allow that now. Terry Baxter: No, I don't either. I had a hot plate so I could heat up my soup. That was before microwaves. Toby Jenkins: So in college, did you begin to explore your sexuality? Terry Baxter: Yeah, when I went to college, I realized in high school that I was gay, but I didn't, I don't think I called it that. I just liked guys, and I didn't call myself a homosexual, as some people did. So I went to college, and I just, the guy that I told you a little bit about earlier, I met him, and we became friends and boyfriends, and we were, gosh, several years during school. Then when I graduated, he was still in school one more year, and two more years, and I moved to Plano because I got a job in Plano, and so we weren't living together anymore, �11 and we decided it would be okay for us to just break up and be friends. And then, interestingly, when I moved back to Dallas, we got back together, and then we just kind of drifted apart, partly because I was living with him when I met Barry, so Barry broke us up. And we would go to the bars. The Old, Old Plantation that was on Harwood in Dallas, we would go there on Sundays right after about two o'clock in the afternoon for the tea dance. You'd pay a dollar cover, well drinks are ten cents, and they fed you a good meal. They had an actual cook there that would make turkey and dressing and green beans one week, or fried chicken another week, and so basically for a couple bucks, you'd have a whole afternoon of socializing and dancing and eating, and you'd go there at 2 in the afternoon and go home Sunday night at 2 in the morning and hope you can get to work the next day. Dennis Neill: Terry, while you were at the University, what was your major or your extracurricular activities, and was there an organized gay community as part of the student campus life? Terry Baxter: If there was an organized community, I think that organized after Barry was there. Barry Hensley: Yes, I was part of it. Terry Baxter: Yeah, he helped start it, so there wasn't an organized gay community when I first started. Toby Jenkins: Visible, there wasn't a visible… Terry Baxter: Yeah, there wasn't an organized, I'm sure, right, and there was only one bar in Arlington, Texas, and it started up when I was a junior. So, you know, Tim was a, he wouldn't care, Tim was my, the guy I was dating at the time, was a film major, and I was a biology major, except I took all my other subjects were business classes, interestingly. My goal was to become a doctor, but that didn't happen because I didn't have perfect grades. I still talk too much, and it was during an era when the state medical schools in Texas were really striving to get women and minorities into the medical field because they'd always been kind of white men, and so even when I would have an interview, I could tell that they were just interviewing because they should, and not because they were really looking for another white guy to put into medical school. So I was taking business classes. Anyway, there wasn't an official recognition of it at the time. Barry can tell you about when he started it. I went to Plano because I had worked as a teller in banks when I was in school all the time and that's how I got kind of into financial stuff and I decided, since I had a biology degree and a minor in chemistry, I should at least try to use that degree somewhere. So I went to Plano, Texas, where Anderson Clayton Foods- which got bought up by Kraft ultimately- but they're the ones who had Chiffon margarine- it's not nice to fool mother nature- and Seven Seas Green Goddess salad dressing and all that kind of stuff and Mrs �12 Tucker's shortening. It was a viable company, and I went there and did my job to develop imitation cheese products and it was interesting at first. But then I realized that standing in a lab by myself all day in a lab coat, making minute adjustments to recipes to create imitation cheese and then holding panels for people to taste them and say which one's better and using that as your path to make it better, and not having any communication with people- I was in the lab eight hours a day by myself and I'm a talker and it's hard to talk to the blender that's blending up your imitation cheese. Barry Hensley: But to this day we'll be in the grocery store and he'll grab something. He'll look at it, look at all the chemicals in it and verbalize: oh, this one's okay, oh, you shouldn't have this. You know, put that back on the shelf. So he knows stuff. Terry Baxter: And when I was at a restaurant one time, I said the cheese in this is imitation and it's not a good one. And Barry said: how can you tell? I said because it tastes like a barnyard and it's just…You know, you develop the sensitivity to those things. I decided to go back into the banking business and moved back into Dallas and worked at a small bank- metro bank- in downtown Dallas and the lady who I worked with, the supervisor of the drive-in that I was working in, felt threatened by me, not in a physical sense but because I was smart and quick and being noticed by the management of the place. So her daughter got me an interview at MCI in the credit department, and I interviewed there and got that job. So I'd say it made her feel better and it made me feel better because it was a much better paying job and I was with MCI four and a half years. They transferred me, eight months before I quit, to Washington DC and I lived in Arlington, Virginia. And then they wanted to transfer me to New York and pay me the same thing they were paying in Washington DC, and I couldn't figure out how to afford living in New York on the same salary in Washington DC. Barry couldn't find a job in Washington, DC because he had come relocated temporarily- it's turned out to be, and so we both packed up our bags, put Grandma on top of that truck and drove to Hollywood- no, drove to Tulsa, and then we're out of work for most of the summer. But I got a pretty good severance package because they were doing a reorganization and so if you could not be in a place, fit you in the reorganization, they would give you a severance package. It was a couple weeks of pay for every year you worked for them, all your vacation and all your sick leave, and so that was pretty good. Barry Hensley: We'd moved to Tulsa and my mom was here and I had a lot of friends here. Terry didn't know anybody, so it was new to him. This is spring of 85. And so that summer we're trying to find jobs, and we ended up living at the Harvard Terrace Apartments at 26th and Harvard. I don't know how many people we know have gone through those apartments at some point in their lives. Toby Jenkins: They are great apartments. Terry Baxter: They still are. �13 Barry Hensley: It was 250 bucks a month. We didn't have jobs, they didn't care, as long as we could pay it. Terry Baxter: And then, of course, we signed the lease and I go: uh-oh, it says we can't have pets. She said, oh, don't worry about that, and she scratched it out because we had cats. Barry Hensley: So very nice place to live, but that got us through the summer. Dennis Neill: So how did you decide on Tulsa as opposed to your home state of Texas? Terry Baxter: Dallas had gotten really big. Fort Worth was beginning to become the right-wing bastion that it is today, and so I, just after having lived in Washington DC and spent my weekends on DuPont Circle, had the bookstore and stuff like that it was, I'd rather go to some place that hadn't grown up yet than go to a place that grew up wrong. So, and Barry's mother was here. Barry Hensley: She'd had some health issues, she'd had a heart attack. Terry Baxter: Oh, I guess I should go back. My parents had disowned me, so I guess I better go back and say how that came about. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, give us that real quick and then we'll get Barry's background. Terry Baxter: Yeah, because Barry can talk about Arlington and start again. But anyway, when I was working at the bank, I worked part-time at Sears in the credit office, and another worker at the credit office who— Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Is this while you were in college? Terry Baxter: Yeah. So I worked two jobs in college. And we were just talking to each other. And the sister of my brother's wife—so I guess whatever, she's not related to me—but my brother's wife's sister saw us talking together, and I guess he or I made some movement that made her think we were faggy. And so she told my brother's wife. And so one Saturday night when I got off work, I usually would go stop by my parents, because they had moved to Arlington at the time, sold their house in Fort Worth, moved to Arlington. And I'd go by their house just to visit for a little while, and then I would drive back to Dallas to go live where I live. I got there, and my brother and his wife were there, and there was a confrontation of— and to this day, I don't know what my sister-in-law thought she was going to get out of it, but she felt it necessary to tell my parents that I was gay, even though she didn't know for sure, but she made assumptions that happened to be correct. And it was not a good situation. I didn't speak to my father for ten years after that, because he wouldn't speak to me. My mother, I would send letters, and occasionally she would write a little note back, got your letter. But I never did understand that, but I couldn't drive home, because I was so shaken, because I didn't know what to say, because I didn't come out, because I knew it would bother them. But there was no reason to come out, because what I was doing �14 when I wasn't at home was not affecting them at all, but my sister-in-law had decided to make it affect them, which I thought was not in their best interest or mine. So luckily, Tim, who we'd been boyfriends and now we're just friends, was still at UTA, and I drove from their house to his place and stayed there overnight, because I just wasn't up to driving all the way back to Dallas with that going on. And so that's how I came out, or I was outed. In work situations, it wasn't officially don't ask, don't tell, but there was no reason to talk about it, because it was work. I think I didn't come out at the city until I was in, probably it was about four years before I retired, and we were in a meeting, and we were talking about something, and my boss said, well, what did you and your wife do? And I said, I don't have a wife, I'm gay. And that was the first time I said it out loud, because nobody else had ever asked. And she was like, you are? Oh, well, I don't know, it didn't mean anything, and she wasn't prejudiced about it or anything. But everybody else just knew, even though we never talked about it, because it was a state of being, not a thing. It was, you know, that's who I was. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: This was about four years before you retired, so that would have been about what year? Terry Baxter: About 2014. And every other place, I did my job better than most people do their jobs. I kept getting promotions. Every time I took a different job in the city, I had 12 different jobs, and that was to get more money, because if you work for the city, you don't get pay raises in place. You might get a 2% raise or 3% raise, but if you take a new position that's higher grade, you get a 10% raise. Barry Hensley: And you're still in the pension plan. Terry Baxter: And that's giving you more retirement and more of that. So I took advantage of the opportunities. I only used the opportunities once to escape, and I took a downgrade at that time to escape from a particular boss who was kind of like one of his later bosses. She loved you when you weren't working for her, but once you worked for her, she hated you if she hadn't hired you. And she tried to demote me, because I did not report into office when I was on jury duty. And I said, the city policy doesn't require you to report to work when you're on jury duty. And she says, well, that doesn't matter. I expect you to come to work. So I got with her boss and said, we can keep this in the family, and you can tell her that she doesn't have the right to do that, or I can go to HR and make this public to everybody that she's violating city policy by telling me I have to report to work when I'm on jury duty. And she said, that doesn’t matter, I expect you to come to work. I got with her boss and said, we can keep this in the family and you can tell her she doesn’t have the right, or I can go to HR and make this public that she is violating city policy by telling me I have to report to work when I am on jury duty. He took care of it. And so that was, but then I knew that I wasn't gonna, I was persona non grata with her from then forward. So I left the finance department and went to the fire department. �15 Toby Jenkins: What was your family's objection? I mean, were they embarrassed by it? Was it a religious objection over your sexuality? Was it political… Terry Baxter: I never got a good explanation from them. Dennis Neill: Was there a reconciliation over these years, the four players in that scene? Terry Baxter: When my dad got cancer and was dying, my mother decided that we should be able to, I should be able to see him before he died. Barry Hensley: It's 1990. Terry Baxter: And so I went back, spent some time at Thanksgiving, and spent some time at Christmas, and he died in January, 1st of January, not on the 1st, but in the 1st week of January. And that was the only, and he was already kind of not there because of the medication. And so it wasn't really a reconciliation. It was just a, you should not be able to see your father before he dies, and he should not be able to see you. SoBarry Hensley: We're friends with the brother now. Terry Baxter: Yeah, now. My mother, it tookBarry Hensley: His mother, okay. So she allowed him to come see his dad as he was dying in 1990. We had already been together ten years at that time. She did not allow me to come meet her or any of the family until 2002. We'd been together 22 years before she allowed me to meet the family. And I went downTerry Baxter: And she liked him better than me. Barry Hensley: And met the family, and they were lovely people, and this has been great ever since. So we've just wasted a lot of years. Toby Jenkins: This is profound, and I wanna make sure viewers capture that part of it. The alienation from the family, the family reject you, but yet apparently you stay somehow connected to them. Terry Baxter: Yeah, I would send birthday cards, but I always got them backwards until my dad finally said, I came first. Barry Hensley: Right. Terry Baxter: Cuz his birthday was September 16th, and hers was October 23rd. But I would always think it was her birthday on September 23rd, and his on October 16th. And so he said, in both cases, I came first, September, and 16 comes before 23. So then I finally knew how to figure out whose birthday card I was sending. But I tried to keep in touch. My sister and I kept in touch. My brother and I didn't for quite some years. But we do now. Toby Jenkins: Let's find out about Barry. Tell us a little bit about your childhood, your family background. Because if I understand, you were a Tulsan. �16 Barry Hensley: I was. My grandfather, my mother's father, left the extreme poverty of southern Missouri in 1915. Excuse me, 1910, and he was 15 years old. And he was hitchhiking to California, because that's where you went back then. And he made it to Yale, Oklahoma, ran out of money, turned around and came back to Tulsa, because that was the closest big city. And he stayed there the rest of his life. He went to World War I, came back and started the Moulder, Oldham Janitorial Supply Company, which was at 219 North Denver, which is where the jail is now, the county jail. And he had that business until he died in 1975. So my mom was born in 1930, and she and my dad got together. My grandmother was a very hard-nosed woman. She was a difficult mother, apparently, I have heard from her kids and from other family members back in the 40s into the 50s. She was a really difficult personality. By the time I came along in the 60s, she had mellowed a lot. She was a big supporter of mine, and I appreciated her a lot. But I knew I didn't want to do anything to cross her. So when I was a teenager, if someone suggested that you do some stupid teenage thing to get in trouble or whatever, I'd say, I can't do that. Grandmother will kill me. So that's how I stayed out of trouble, was having the invisible grandmother looking over my shoulder at that moment. But yeah, my parents bought the house we're living in now over near 21st and Lewis. It's not the big fancy houses on the south side. It's the little bungalows on the north side, although we did a big renovation on it when my mom died. But they bought that house in 1951, and that's where I grew up, went to Barnard Elementary, my beloved Barnard Elementary. My parents divorced. I was very young. Dad had already remarried and moved to Dallas by the time I was five, so I don't remember him at the house at all, and he had distanced himself quite a bit. Nice guy, and he would come up and see me and my brother. My brother was developmentally disabled, just the two of us, and Dad would come up on the holidays, you know, when you're in elementary school, Thanksgiving and whatever, the 4th of July. And we'd go down and spend a week or two in Dallas every summer with him and his new family. Toby Jenkins: Did he still continue to financially support the family? Barry Hensley: Not, no. Nope, nope, nope. He was supposed to. He did his own, well, he had his own family, and his new wife, bless her heart, she was a, he had a tiger by the tail there, so he had to provide for the two new boys that he ended up with when he married her. But yeah, I grew up at Barnard, and after Dad left, Mom, it's just Mom and I, because David, my brother, was off at school, as you called it back then, he was at school. He went to Hissom and some other places. But Mom had some issues. She had some demons that she had a hard time overcoming, and it's one of those things where the kid becomes the parent, you know, elementary school sort of thing. So there were, I didn't choke up here, because Barnard, that was my refuge. That was the place that I got away from the real world, and I loved it so much. And when it burned down, that just about killed me, even though it had been decades, you know, decades �17 after that. But it was a really good experience working at working, thank you, working at, or going to school at Barnard. Lifelong friends I still have. And then junior high school, I went to Holland Hall. The family decided that was a spot. My uncles had gone to Cascia, and Holland Hall seemed like a good alternative, and so I went. It was at the old campus at 26th and Birmingham. Toby Jenkins: Were you all Episcopal or… Barry Hensley: No, we were Presbyterian. Yeah, so grew up in the First Presbyterian Church downtown. I was in the choir, children's choir, and we participated. Mom distanced herself from it. She didn't really like it that much anymore, even though that's where she had grown up as well. My grandparents were already there when they built that building in 1925. So their names are all over the place down there. But grandmother still liked to go, and after granddaddy died, and I got my driver's license, I would take her down on Sunday mornings, and Dr. Wiseman was there then, and she liked him a lot. Toby Jenkins: Legend. Barry Hensley: Yeah, and but I think I was 17 or 18, and it wasn't Dr. Wiseman, it was a guest minister that week, and who went on this anti-gay tirade. Absolute tirade, and I'm sitting there looking at this. I'm thinking, this guy is nuts. This is crazy. The stuff he's saying is just not even true. Toby Jenkins: You were in high school? Barry Hensley: I was in high school. I was probably 17, and I probably hadn't really come to grips with my sexuality necessarily. You did what you did back then. You know, I'd go take a girl to the you know, dance and to the sweetheart ball or whatever, and those lovely young ladies, I'm still friends with every one of them. They are wonderful people. But yeah, so after that... Terry Baxter: And now they know why he didn't go any farther than just taking them to the dance. Barry Hensley: I was safe. Yeah, their mothers liked me. But after that event at First Prez, I still took Grandmother because she wanted to go, but I knew that I was not going to end up at First Prez, and Mom had already left. She had been exploring some other places, and so we'll talk about College Hill here in a minute. Dennis Neill: So Barry, how did your mother provide for you all? Barry Hensley: It was a difficult situation. She... My grandparents basically provided for us. Mom was... She was capable of holding a job, but as I say, these demons would get involved, and it made it really difficult. She worked for the Tulsa County Health Department for several years, off and on, sometimes part-time, that sort of thing. So I think the finances... You don't know it when you're that age, you know, but yeah, I mean, we got food on the table, but I had an entire... I had an entire group that helped raise �18 me. The two little ladies across the street, they were sisters, elderly sisters, and I would go spend time over there. I'd sleep over there. They'd feed me. They'd take me on trips with them. You know, the neighborhood and the family would step in when Mom wasn't able to do that, and I am forever grateful for all those folks coming together when I needed them. But it was funny. I keep thinking back now. I never got the talk from either of my parents, you know. You're just supposed to find out how the world works sexually on your own. Terry Baxter: Except his mother working in the health department. Barry Hensley: That's what I'm going to tell you about. So she does these county health fairs around Tulsa County. And so my education was all the stuff she left in the back of the car, which were brochures and fake breasts where you determine where the lumps are and all of those sorts of things. Because that's what she was doing, educating young women was her primary job. So I had all of this information in the backseat of the car. That was the talk. Yes, it was so funny. Toby Jenkins: You had more than most anybody else. Barry Hensley: Yeah, it didn't occur to me to go to the library. I should have done that. But I was at Holland Hall for three years, and then one year at the new campus. The new campus, been there 50 years now out on Yale at 81st Street. Good friends there, lifelong friends I made there. And then I went to Edison for 10th, 11th, and 12th grade. And we were just across… We were north of 21st Street, so we weren't in the Edison district. We were in the Central District. And at that time, Central had just moved from the building downtown where PSO is now, way the heck out, south of Gilcrease, their new campus out there. And mom said, I am not taking you all the way out there. Terry Baxter: Not that she took you to Edison. Barry Hensley: And Rogers was so close, it made no sense the way the lines were drawn. And Edison was literally two miles south of us. Terry Baxter: And it was because the railroad track that goes down to Broken Arrow Expressway, before the highway was there, was the dividing line, because kids could not cross railroad tracks to go to school. Terry Baxter: Yeah, my grandmother lived at 26th and Columbia. And so we used her address. And nobody was any wiser. Dennis Neill: And I think one of your good friends growing up was Scott Goodpaster. Barry Hensley: Indeed. Dennis Neill: Can you talk when you first met Scott? Barry Hensley: Yes. So at Edison, again, a bunch of lifelong friends, wonderful people. Toby Jenkins: Let me ask this real quick. So what year did you graduate? �19 Barry Hensley: 78. Toby Jenkins: 78. And how many were in your graduating class at Edison? Barry Hensley: Maybe 700, maybe. Terry Baxter: I can't remember exactly. Toby Jenkins: Still a big school. Barry Hensley: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: OK, now talk about your high school friends. Barry Hensley: So yeah, so several high school friends. Scott was a good one. I met him pretty quickly. We were 16. He just passed away. He turned into the most incredible artist and most incredible landscaper, gardener, just unbelievable. His yard is pristine. And when he died back in May, his family was so generous. None of them lived here. But they all came in to do all these arrangements. And they allowed me to take some plants out of his yard, which just really, so I sit in the backyard now. We have plants from friends, neighbors, co-workers, family, all of these plants, perennials. So I see them every year. And I sit out there in the evenings with an adult beverage and just toast the world. Terry Baxter: That was, we learned to do that during COVID and ever since then… Barry Hensley: We still do it. Yeah, I love it so much. But Scott was a golden boy. He was a handsome guy. Everybody wanted to be his friend. And he was a very private, very private guy. His best friend, who then became one of my best friends, was Stephen Breckenridge. Stephen was the great grandson of Waite and Genevieve Phillips, of Philbrook fame. And Stephen was a wild child. He was funny, everybody loved him. And that's part of it. He managed to get through school, I think, without being bullied. And the same way I did. I never got bullied. Because I think we subconsciously at that time realized that if you could make the bullies laugh, they wouldn't beat you up. So you did, you came up with humor, was the way that you diffused those situations. And Stephen was a prime example of that. And he was a hoot. So he was in theater, so I was in the theater stuff, and enjoyed that a lot. Toby Jenkins: So Steve Breckenridge, Scott Goodpaster, you’re all at Edison. Was anybody telling anybody that they had same-sex attraction? Barry Hensley: Yeah, yeah, there was a group of us, theater guys, you know. We... You know, you started experimenting when you were 16, 17 years old. Toby Jenkins: So, you know, there were high school kids at Edison that you were friends, lifelong friends, and you had figured it out by then. Barry Hensley: I had. �20 Toby Jenkins: And they had also. Terry Baxter: Yeah, I think so. Terry Baxter: Especially Stephen . Barry Hensley: Yeah, especially Stephen. I had never come out to my parents. I never did that. We never had a discussion about it. I lived my life the way I wanted to. I took the girls, as I said, to the dances and whatnot. Terry Baxter: But they did know because when we moved into our first house, his dad and I were working on basically stuff you do when you want to. Barry Hensley: Carpentry. Terry Baxter: Carpentry stuff. Toby Jenkins: That's right, because your father lived in Texas. Terry Baxter: Yeah, they didn't know. And he would come up here and he helped us. And we were planing the bottom of a door. And Gene just said, I'm glad Barry ended up with somebody like you. And I guess I took it meaning, because I knew how to do that woodwork and all that kind of stuff. But he also said, ended up with someone like you, which made it obvious that he wasn't confused about what our relationship was. Barry Hensley: He was a great guy. He just wanted me to be happy. I appreciated that. Toby Jenkins: So you were in high school. You've got this circle of friends. You were in theater and. . . Bary Hensley: Yeah, pretty much. I had been a soccer kid at Holland Hall, but didn't really do much in the gym at Edison. Graduated in 78. And Scott and another friend, Ben Crockett, and I decided to go to Oklahoma State University that fall. It would be the fall of 78. So we went. And you'll find this funny about Scott. So Ben and I got a dorm room together in Parker dorm. Scott pledged a fraternity. And we hadn't been at school more than probably a week or ten days. And one night after midnight, our dorm room door, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. And it's Scott. And we open the door and he says, I am not going through this initiation ceremony. And we said, good for you. It's like we could have told you that was going to happen. But anyway, he slept on the floor that night and managed to get a room in our dorm, the other end of the hall. And these are the old-fashioned dorms where you have one central bathroom, you know, with the shower stalls and everything. And so Ben and I would get your towel and walk down the hall in your underwear with your bar of soap. And that was about it. And there comes Scott, who has his long robe on and his slippers. And he has a satchel over his shoulder going to the shower. Terry Baxter: Full of products. �21 Barry Hensley: Full of moisturizers and all of those sorts of things, cleansers of one kind or another. He was so careful about his skin. So it was a lot of fun. Toby Jenkins: He probably had a subscription to GQ magazine. Barry Hensley: Oh, yes, of course. No, he turned me on to GQ magazine back in the 70s. You bet. So we're at Oklahoma State University. And I decided it wasn't a very good fit, although it was kind of funny. I have a picture of it. So this was the era of Farrah Fawcett. You know, that poster of her and Linda Carter as Wonder Woman. And all the guys had all that up in their dorms. And I have this huge poster of Judy Garland at the Palace in 1967 on my wall at OSU. But again, I didn't get bullied about it. They were just completely confused, having no idea what it was. Terry Baxter: Who is that old lady on your wall? Barry Hensley: Yeah, that was pretty fun. So I decided that that wasn't where I wanted to stay the rest of my college career and that I hadn't really known my dad very well. And so he was in Dallas, and I decided to go to—I went down to several schools down there. I could use in-state tuition since he lived in Dallas and started going to UTA. UTA is a commuter school, so the weekends are pretty dull. People live everywhere else except for Terry and a handful of people in the dorms. It's empty on the weekends. So I'd go back to my dad's house on the weekends. My stepmother, bless her heart, would do my laundry. And so I would get to know them a little better. And this would be the fall of 79 I started at UTA. And quickly discovered, as you do when you're 19, 20, 21, I think it was in 1981, I would have been 21, and there was a group of us. We weren't best friends, but we kind of recognized each other as gay. And UT Austin, there had been some stuff coming out about their sort of gay-straight alliance, whatever it was called at that time, and we didn't have one. And we needed our little group. We got together at the one bar that Terry was talking about in Arlington to strategize about how we approach the administration about recognizing our organization. We went through all of this stuff and had to go through all of these, you know, bylaws and all these things to make sure that we fit the criteria for what they needed so they couldn't say no. And we did. We went through that process and I remember, I'll remember to this day, sitting outside the door. Only one of us could go in to make the presentation to the, whatever, the president and the board or whatever it was called. And the rest of us were sitting out in the lobby area just, you know, sweating like crazy. And he came out with a great big smile on his face. And that was the first recognition of a gay group at the University of Texas at Arlington. So that was very exciting. Dennis Neill: Do you recall your acronym? Barry Hensley: I don't. I don't know what it was called. It wasn't the Gay-Straight Alliance. We had a different name for it. But, it didn't do a lot. We didn't do a lot of, I mean, we'd have like a booth maybe, you know, at events and such. Terry Baxter: Registration. �22 Barry Hensley: Right. But I don't remember being really active that much. And I wasn't living on campus. Dennis Neill: When I interviewed Tom Neal, he talked about being active and helping form a group at OU. Was he also involved in this effort? Barry Hensley: No, I don't think so. I don't remember him being involved in that. No, I don't remember that. Terry Baxter: He was in graduate school and so he was not involved with the same people that Barry was. Barry Hensley: But when I was first at UTA, I lived just off campus in a little apartment. And that's when we were forming this organization. By the time I was living with Tom and Laurie and Al in Dallas, it was already in existence by the time we were commuting every day. So I got my degree in communications in 1983. And as Terry said, you know, went to work for MCI. And we came back to Tulsa in the summer of 85. And Terry had an interview at the city of Tulsa. And at that time, the city offices were [where the] the Aloft Hotel [is now]. Toby Jenkins: So why did you come back to Tulsa? Barry Hensley: Well, the cost of living is very inexpensive. And my mom was having some health issues. So we didn't live with her in the summer of 85. Terry Baxter: And we didn't want to go back to Texas. Barry Hensley: Yeah. And I still hadn't met Terry's family or anything. So there wasn't too much reason for me to be involved there. But anyway, so Terry has an interview at the city of Tulsa. There's a parking lot between that building and the Central Library. And so I'm sitting in the car. Toby Jenkins: Because in those days, City Hall was... Barry Hensley: Where the Aloft is now. Toby Jenkins: Civic Center. Yeah. Barry Hensley: 100 Civic Center. Right. The library is 300, I think, Civic Center. 400. 400 Civic Center. So I'm sitting there in the parking lot. And I'm staring at the Aloft Hotel, the city of Tulsa. And while Terry's having his interview, I didn't have a job either. And back then, if you needed a job, you had a trunk full of resumes. You know? And if something looked interesting or you saw a sign somewhere, you'd go in and talk to them. So I popped the trunk and I got a resume. And I went up to the fourth floor. That's where the business office was then. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: At the library? Barry Hensley: At the library. I didn't have any library experience. You know, I'm 25 years old. And the personnel director happened to be standing there at the little desk, talking to some of the staff. And she introduced herself and said, Well, I have a few minutes. Come on in. �23 And so I did. And she is still alive. She's having her 90th birthday next month. Lovely lady. And my life would not have been the same without her. Because she got me an interview, first of all, with Wayne Hardy in the Media Center. Which is where I really wanted to work. Because it was not books. It was movies and music and all the stuff that I really loved. I was into all the golden era of Hollywood and all of those things. And Wayne, very unwisely, turned me down. Because there was a former staff member that applied also, so he hired her back. I didn't understand it. But anyway, the personnel director then sent me out to Hardesty, which was then by Woodland Hills Mall, across from Dillard's at Woodland Hills Mall. And I got the job out there without one day of library experience. I started as a library associate. Terry Baxter: And we were in Eureka Springs when you got called saying you needed to come to work on Monday. Barry Hensley: I needed to come to work on Monday. So it was a very exciting time. I started in September of 85. Terry started in October of 85 at the City. He got a job there. Terry Baxter: They didn't want to hire me at first because I was overqualified. Toby Jenkins: So, City employee, and it was County-City… Barry Hensley: City-County employee, yeah. But we both are part of the same retirement system. Toby Jenkins: So you're part of the pension, the City, the County pension, or the City? Terry Baxter: It's the City one. Barry Hensley: The library had to make a choice decades ago and they went with the City. Terry Baxter: The City and the County formed them as a joint thing with their own board and all that kind of stuff. They kind of chose the parts that they wanted from each organization. Toby Jenkins: So they have the health department, some other things. Barry Hensley: I wanted to go back to something real quick because I thought it was, I thought it was interesting. You asked to put, have notes in, so I do. I realized after we moved back to Tulsa that my mom's, many of my mom's friends, I had known all my life, I had seen them in and out and, you know, they were just her friends from high school, mainly, and a couple of those guys were gay. And I, we sort of started realizing that and I thought it was so interesting that she, I think it was a don't ask, don't tell sort of situation, you know, back then. But these guys would step up and they would, you know, escort mom or her other friends to events or whatever. So, you know, I think that, I think it was a win-win situation. But I remember one of them, John, John Raveill, he was a Prime Timer here and he was, he and mom were good buddies from Central High School on. �24 And he told me one time, I just thought this was interesting, back in the 60s, back in the good old days, they would go, he and his buddies would go to, I think it was called the Taj Mahal, down on 7th Street, across from the Holiday Inn. And when they would get done, you know, middle of the night, late, the police would be waiting for them. And I'm so grateful for the police officers now. I always thank them at the pride parades and whatever else because they're so supportive and so helpful. Not so back then. So John said what would happen is his buddy would go through the door, the police officer would intercept him and order him to walk across the street. And so he would walk across the street and be promptly arrested for jaywalking. And John said, aha. So when the officer ordered him to do that, he walked to the corner to walk across with the light, where he was promptly arrested for disobeying an officer. So that was the environment that those guys had to live in. Toby Jenkins: Police harassment. Barry Hensley: It was harassment. Very basic harassment. So I was so grateful that, you know, things have changed through the years, yes. So are you ready for the library? Dennis Neill: Well, when you first came here in 1985, did you get connected with the gay community at that time? Or were you pretty isolated from the community? Barry Hensley: My old friends were the gay community for us. And we weren't bar guys. We didn't go out and do that. Terry Baxter: We would have friends over to Barry's mother's pool. And she would have all her friends and we'd have our friends. So there'd be 40 people at the pool every Sunday. Half of her friends, and almost all of our friends, were gay. But it was an interesting mixture of people. Dennis Neill: So TOHR wasn't part of your early introduction to the community, Barry Hensley: Not at that time. Terry Baxter: Only ancillarily, you know, like Tom's bookstore, we'd go there every once in a while to get stuff. But it was funny. Toby Jenkins: Did you attend any of the meetings at the library? Barry Hensley: I don't remember doing that, no. Terry Baxter: We went to the Red Ribbon Gala several times, until it became more of a social outlet instead of a fundraiser cause. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever attend the Pride Picnics? Terry Baxter: Yeah. Barry Hensley: Oh, yeah. Terry Baxter: He has a story about that. �25 Barry Hensley: Well, so I'm at the library in 1994, 25th anniversary of the Stonewall situation. And the library had never had a display of Pride anything. Yeah, I don't know if you can see that or not. But that's the first Pride display at the library in 1994. I had gone to the Central Library Manager at that time, my boss, John. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Did you still work at Hardesty? Barry Hensley: I had moved down to Central. I had been an interlibrary loan at Central in the late 80s and then moved to the Circulation Department. I managed the Circulation Department when this transpired, and then I went out to what was then West Regional and became the Zarrow Regional Library at 51st and Union. I was there for 21 years, and then I became a Regional Director and moved back to Central and was in charge of half the branches, the North and West branches. I went to John and asked if I could do this display, and he said, sure. So I commandeered this display unit, which was outside of... Toby Jenkins: Were you out to John? Did John know you were gay? Barry Hensley: Oh, we never talked about it, but sure. And the library staff were always, I mean, Terry was just with me. There was never any discussion. The library was a very supportive environment without necessarily verbalizing it, I think, at that time. And so I went around and found these books. This was in the South Foyer outside of Aaronson Auditorium, one of the old 1960s, the original display units. And at that time, Bruce Bower's A Place at the Table had been a big book. There were several things, and I thought that the 25th anniversary of Stonewall was a good opportunity to do a display. And at that time, analog…to get magazine articles that I wanted to put in the display on the other side, I had to go to the periodicals department. I got big binders of books, of magazines. You find Life magazine, you find Newsweek, you find the articles, you take them to the photocopier. You cut and you paste, and very analog. But I got the information out there, man. And so this display went up, and I hadn't heard any response about it, which I thought was fine. And then John caught me on the elevator a couple weeks after it went up. And he said, oh, I got a comment about your display. And I was kind of steeling myself for whatever that comment would be. He said, yeah, this guy pulled me over, and he said, oh man, thank you so much for putting up that Stonewall Jackson display. And I was thinking, Stonewall Jackson, 25 years ago? Is it really? Terry Baxter: He obviously didn't read what was in there. Barry Hensley: But I'll take it. Terry Baxter: He just saw the word Stonewall. Barry Hensley: So anyway, that was the first one. Toby Jenkins: And no protest? You had nobody? Barry Hensley: No, no. Nobody said a word. �26 Toby Jenkins: That is astonishing. Barry Hensley: Nobody said a word. Toby Jenkins: Maybe everybody thought it was Stonewall Jackson. Barry Hensley: Yeah, maybe. Dennis Neill: Did it make the media? Barry Hensley: Not that I recall. Terry Baxter: I think Tom said something in TFN about it. Barry Hensley: So yeah, so what happened after that was, I was on a roll. So Tom Neal had started the Tulsa Family News. I got approval to have a library column every month in the Tulsa Family News, the new books, the new, you know, whatever we were getting relating to the community. So I did that for as long as he had TFN. And there was some, there was a little kerfuffle about the distribution, because I don't think the library administration at that time wanted to go overboard on all of this. And so they found a loophole in the laws, the library rules and regulations, that we could not distribute to the branches and whatnot…You know, they have, in the lobbies, there are display units that have magazines and newspapers and that sort of thing. If it wasn't a Tulsa-oriented piece of publication. And at that time, Tom was getting blackballed by the local publishers in the city of Tulsa. He had to go to the city of Claremore, where he found someone to publish his newspaper. He would go up there and get it and drive it back and distribute it wherever he wanted to. And that was the loophole. It was in Claremore, it was published in Claremore, not in Tulsa. So the library decided they didn't need to do that. Well, after quite a bit of, if you know Tom, he doesn't take that sort of thing well. So eventually it rectified itself and we were able to distribute it to all the locations in Tulsa County, all the libraries in Tulsa County, which was very cool. But that also was the beginning of having a booth, a library booth, at the Pride events. So we had a booth at Mohawk, we had a booth at Owen Park. Terry Baxter: We had a picnic table. Barry Hensley: That's right, a picnic table with a rainbow flag that we bought across it, that's right, and a homemade sign. And a few books. Terry Baxter: And this table was slowly sinking into the mud. Barry Hensley: Yeah, at Mohawk Park, that was a soggy one, yes, I remember that. And at Owen Park, I remember, I know we were there at the summer of 1996, because over the intercom, they would play music and Ella Fitzgerald came on, and that's when we realized that Ella Fitzgerald had died that day. So I can't complain exactly. She was one of my heroes. Oh my god, it was so exciting when we were living in Dallas. Terry was my sugar daddy, sort of, you know. �27 He had a job at the time. I was a starving college student, and the Fairmont Hotel had a place called the Venetian Room. It was a showroom. For 25 bucks, you could have dinner and a show. So he started taking me down there and I realized I had this record collection of great American songbook stuff and jazz, a lot, still have it, and I realized that I could take my album down there and get these performers to autograph them because they didn't have a green room at the showroom. The performer stayed in the hotel so they would come down and go back up the elevator, which was in the middle of the lobby, and that gave me an opportunity to intercept them before or after the show, and they were all very gracious, and I got to meet and get autographs from Carmen McRae and Sarah Vaughan and Ella Fitzgerald and Cab Calloway and, oh my gosh, it was so exciting, Mel Torme and George Shearing and Keeley Smith and so much - Peggy Lee. You all may remember Peter Athens. He was a good friend of ours and from Holland Hall, before I met him, and he was down there for our, when we went to see Peggy Lee, and so I hightailed it after the show to get Miss Lee to autograph my album. She was very gracious, and I came back and Peter was so funny. He said, I can't believe you stalked Peggy Lee. I said, I did not stalk Peggy Lee. I escorted Miss Lee to the elevator and managed to get an autograph while I was there, but those performers, you know, these huge names, they didn't have any entourage. There were no security guards or anything, and when we saw Torme, Mel Torme, there were three of us. There was Terry and his old friend Tim, our friend Tim, and me, and another friend named Barry, and we were on the front row, the four of us, and Shearing was playing the piano. He was playing a solo. Torme was standing on the stage, just kind of acknowledging the audience sort of thing, and he looked down at us, looked at the four of us, and he said, what, no dames? You got us there, Mel, you know. I thought if I had gotten my wits together, I would have said, no, they like Jack Jones, because he and Jack Jones were big rivals, you know, but anyway, sorry, that was a little diversion, but so when Ella Fitzgerald died, and we found out about it at the Pride picnic, it just broke my heart, but in fact, when the PAC opened, I took one of the girls from high school to see Ella Fitzgerald as the opening of the PAC, and we're still friends today. She and Terry sing together in the Tulsa Chorale, so it's... Toby Jenkins: So, just curious, the library is at the Pride picnics, you've done this, were y'all, was the senior management ever telling you that they were getting complaints, or people protesting? Barry Hensley: No, and if there were, they at that time were very good about saying just what we discussed earlier, which is, you know, the library is there for everybody. Dennis Neill: When did PFLAG or TOHR become involved in helping you with the displays? �28 Barry Hensley: That must have been after I left the Central Library, which would be in 95, so... Toby Jenkins: Because I was always led to believe it was Mary Waidner and Nancy McDonald who got the... Barry Hensley: Well, Mary was certainly there, she was certainly involved, she worked there, yeah. Yeah, but it was a fun time, an exciting time, you know, to be there, and now, you know, every Pride parade, there's the bookmobile, you know, we have to go say hi. Dennis Neill: You really laid the basis for that outreach by the public libraries into our community? Barry Hensley: Yeah, and we never had any problem getting staff to participate. It was like, oh sure, I'll come down and do that. Toby Jenkins: But you included the books in Tom's publication, making sure the community... Barry Hensley: Yep, whatever new materials came out. Toby Jenkins: ...we have his collection domain, Tom's… Dennis Neill: Yes, all of those newspapers are digitized and available to the public. Barry Hensley: Great, that's great. Well, my columns are in there every month. Toby Jenkins: So we can go back and look at his… Dennis Neill: And we have a video from when one of the news stations covered the library display, and it featured, I think, maybe Nancy in that discussion or somebody, so it was Channel 2, Channel 6, but you laid the basis for all of that opportunity to expose people to... Toby Jenkins: Thank you. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Thank you. Barry Hensley: It was very exciting. Terry Baxter: And that John, straight man who's in the library, says, oh yeah, go ahead. And that was kind of good, too. Toby Jenkins: I'm curious, because, I mean, it became a lifeline. It became my salvation, my deliverance to an authentic life. Why were there so many books in the library around these issues? Were they asking you to research this and find the books you all needed in your collection? How was that happening? Barry Hensley: Well, I'm sure Mary was a big part of that. I was not at that time. I wasn't a part of collection building in any way. I mean, anybody could recommend. You know that we get something. But there are national booksellers, you know, who contract with libraries and bookstores to get the newest releases and whatever, and the library will �29 put their parameters in. We would like to do releases on these topics and this and this and this, and it was kind of becoming, you know, in the mid-90s. It was kind of becoming a thing that was being discussed and so the library wanted to be on top of it and, as I say, I'm sure Mary was a part of that, making sure that because she was in… Dennis Neill: Well, and part of it, you might recall, is that Mary and Nancy worked together to raise money that we would contribute to help buy those books. Barry Hensley: Yeah, that's so cool. Dennis Neill: So we did that, both through PFLAG and through TOHR, and there used to be a lot of the library plates and we would give them the books they noted it was donated. Toby Jenkins: So, was it wish lists? They would publish a wish list and then y'all would Dennis Neill: It was all very informal, but Mary and Nancy said we need to acquire these books, let's raise the money and we'd help the library buy those books. So we'd send out funds, probably to the library trust and they'd use those funds then to purchase those books. And then there were plates they would put in the front inside cover donated by... Toby Jenkins: Okay, I just want to take this opportunity to tell you connect some dots, Scott Goodpaster. He and I had ended up in a confirmation class at St Jerome's and he was very well read and he knew I was kind of newly out and he said, well, you need to read the Gay classics. And so he gave me a whole list of books that I needed to read that were at the Tulsa Library, like Giovanni's Room. You know several of those books. Barry Hensley: That's so cool. Toby Jenkins: and I would come out with a stack of books like that. Barry Hensley: That's the idea. Toby Jenkins: He had a list of movies, so I'd check the movies out. That's great, all right, anything. So this is. It's getting very lengthy, but it's just so good we're finding out anything else you want to tell us. Barry Hensley: I want to talk about when Terry started going to College Hill Presbyterian Church over here by TU. So he was working in the Finance and Revenue Department with Gary Watts and Gary said: this is 1994, same year, very exciting year. And Gary said: you sing, don't you Terry? He said well, yeah, he hadn't sung really since he'd been back here in Tulsa, but he'd grown up singing and been in the Turtle Creek Chorale. And Gary said: well, my little church needs some tenors if you'd like to come audition us. Terry Baxter: Well, that's not how he said it. He said: if you'd like to come visit and see. And so I actually went to audition. I wanted to hear if it was a real organ- and it was a real pipe organ. And I wanted to hear what the choir sounded like, because I didn't want to lend my voice to a ragtag. And it was a small choir but they sounded great- still do, �30 amazingly- and so I started going there to sing- not anything to do with it being church, really, but to have a singing outlet to go to. They just so happened to have a party two weeks after I first went there, and so the choir director invited me to the party, and it later came out at the party because she and I went into my car and were talking that she was gay and had a girlfriend. But the girlfriend was married and it was just one of those type things. But after they became girlfriend and girlfriend, the lady and her husband stayed at College Hill. Nobody chose sides, it was just: oh well, I guess she finally found herself. But everybody was that way and I felt for the first time in my life that it was a group of people who didn't think you had to reconcile being gay with being a Christian. Toby Jenkins: And who would have been the minister at the time was Radford in there. Terry Baxter: Radford was the next called minister. David Caldwell was there. It was his last day as minister when I went that first time and then we had the interim pastor and that's the one that asked me: how do I reconcile being gay with being a Christian? And I told him that you don't need to reconcile. That, which I think was an odd answer, that he did not expect, that there's no reconciliation necessary. Toby Jenkins: Very profound. Barry Hensley: So Terry had suggested that I start coming to College Hill. I didn't want to do that. From my experience at First Pres- I didn't have an organized religion at all. But I went and the people were so genuine and so open, friendly and outgoing and welcoming. I thought, is this a cult or something, because I'm not used to this sort of organized religion at all. And turns out they are just great, great people. And it also turned out that there were several refugees from First Prez and my mom's generation. She had, I think there were three ladies that she had known back in the early 50s. They were all in the mariners class together when they were all newlyweds back in the Eisenhower era, and so she started coming as well. So it became this really nice, nice place that is wonderful… Terry Baxter: And your brother David started coming. Barry Hensley: David started coming. It was just wonderful… It's a wonderful place and you're able to have a traditional sort of service experience that I was used to from when I've been a kid, but built around this welcoming environment, it's just a really neat little place. So I want to get College Hill a shout out. Mary Bishop-Baldwin. And having an openly gay minister. Barry Hensley: That's correct. Terry Baxter: Yeah, we actually suggested to him that he talked to you guys. Yeah, let's hope he does. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, he just retired. Todd Freeman. Yeah, yeah, he's gonna stay in Tulsa. �31 Barry Hensley: Yes, for at least for right now. Toby Jenkins: He's traveling all over the world. So you would have been there, because I think, wasn't it under Radford that they became a More Light congregation. [More Light is a network of Presbyterian churches which are open and affirming for the LGBTQ+ community.] Barry Hensley: Yeah, Terry was a part of that. Toby Jenkins: Talk about that a little bit. Terry Baxter: Well, there was a discerning process going on and and I was not on session, which is a governing body in the Presbyterian Church at that time, but a friend of ours, Margaret Watson, Margaret Duncan at the time was- was on it and they, they just decided that the Presbyterian Church in Tulsa needed to have an open and outward exposure. To contrast, Kirk of the Hills and First Prez. First Prez has always been kind of the don't ask, don't tell type. Seems like it's gotten worse since they got their new pastor. But Kirk of the Hills, you know, when the Presbyterian Church ultimately decided that it was okay to ordain gays and and that kind of stuff, Kirk of the Hills just [left]. Not to speak bad of the Presbyterian Church. But the Presbytery gave them a good deal when they let them keep their building. Toby Jenkins: Well, it required a lawsuit… Terry Baxter: But the church actually won and they still turned around and allowed them to purchase it for a million dollars. Even though the church won the lawsuit and could have retained the property, as is in the Presbyterian bylaws, the presbytery was nice and said: give us a million dollars, we'll let you go and be whoever you want to be, and- and that's probably the Christian thing to do- but for people who are hoping to make strides in improving the acceptability of gay people. You don't want people like that to win, you want them to suffer a loss. Who knows, the church ultimately won because they're not part of it and so those people can be away. Then we called Radford Rader, who, initially, was instrumental in pushing for the More Light stuff to continue, even though he had done his associate work and youth pastor work at Kirk of the Hills, which is kind of interesting. So even Radford's position had moved and grown and he became instrumental as a straight man, pushing for college to become More Light and accepting. Actually, when we got married, we asked him if he would do the service and he said: well, you know, the denomination is still officially not agreeing with the right of gay people to have a commitment ceremony, and, and I could lose my retirement pension fund if I did that, even though it was in Canada. Barry Hensley: That was in 2005. We decided to go to Canada. We never dreamed it would happen here, but thanks to you [Mary Bishop-Baldwin], other people like you. So we ended up married in Canada, yes, but so he and we became More Light. The Session which is a, I said before the governing body. They've always been. When prohibition came, they were always not for prohibition. What was the next? �32 Terry Baxter: They were very anxious for women to be able to vote. In World War II they would, the members of the church, would take in the international Asian students who were being harassed at TU because of their heritage, and the Japanese. Barry Hensley: If you looked Asian. Terry Baxter: Yeah, if your eyes were not like our eyes. Barry Hensley: And they were behind, they were the first, my understanding is, they were the first church in Tulsa to have an integrated membership, that there was a black family that moved in in the 1950s that became members. And then the gay rights stuff, and they've just been on the right side of every one of these topics. It's a wonderful, wonderful place. Toby Jenkins: So after Radford they called Todd Freeman, and he has been there... Barry Hensley: He was there 18 years. Terry Baxter: Yeah, Todd, I was, I was on session and actually on the pastor nominating committee when we called Todd. It was kind of interesting story because we just could not find the right person, could not find the right person. And Todd hadn't even applied for the job. He was in Dallas at a church there. And we reposted it in all the Presbyterian outlets, I guess you call it, so that in order to get new applicants, because we just had not been able to find anybody that fit what we thought we needed. And a friend of his convinced him, because they saw that new posting, said this church is still looking for somebody, maybe you should apply for it. And he did, and he ended up being the successful applicant. I mean, the first time he came here, interestingly enough, at one of those More Light groupings where his church and we were also at one campsite together. Some of us had met him, didn't remember we had met him until we saw him. But he could preach a sermon, he could minister to people, and he wasn't stupid. He was intelligent. And so he just fit perfectly. And the average length of time for a pastor in a Presbyterian church is eight years, and he was there 18 years. So it was a good fit. It's gonna be hard to find somebody who… Barry Hensley: And unlike so many small churches, the membership is growing. It's not declining, and so many... Terry Baxter: And it's not going up by getting refugees from other churches, it's young. Toby Jenkins: You have several prominent community leaders, and I will say on record that that was the beautiful thing about Reverend Todd Freeman. He was such a good community collaborator. He worked with the interfaith community, he worked on social issues, he worked on issues that would expand services to marginalized communities. He was a very good fit for Tulsa, what we needed at that time. Terry Baxter: And if he does what he says he's gonna do, he's gonna continue doing that. He wants to do more of that, and being a pastor of a church sometimes gets in the way of doing more of that. So he just, I think he also wanted to retire so he wouldn't �33 have to be preaching all our funerals. Because so many of his friends are his age level or more. Toby Jenkins: I'll say this one more about him, then I have some questions about Terry at the City. During the marriage equality fight, which was a 10-year long journey from the time that Mary and Sharon and Gay and Sue filed their lawsuit, we were trying to educate our community and help people understand it better because there was such a religious objection component to it. Reverend Freeman and dozens of other clergy persons were so vital to us because we were able to get them to make statements, write articles that we could then get media publications so that they knew that it wasn't just all churches, all Christian congregations saw this one way. And when we got marriage equality and Tulsa World had their huge front page, there was First Presbyterian, their thoughts on it, me representing the organization of Oklahomans for Equality, and another, Asbury United Methodist, their pastors, conservatives. They had me sandwiched in an Oreo, and then whoever was there decided they needed to get another reflection from religious community. So Todd Freeman, so it went from me being stuck in the middle to it was two to one. He gave a religious perspective on it, and I was always so grateful. Because we had trouble finding, at that point, I mean, United Methodists were not decided on it, the Episcopal Church was still trying to decide. Terry Baxter: And the Presbyterians hadn't decided on it then. When they finally did decide on it, he came out in the newspaper. Toby Jenkins: Anything else in your notes, Barry, that you feel like it's important that we cover? Because then I want to talk to Terry a little bit about, do you feel like we've... Barry Hensley: I'm good. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Well, I want to ask about your marriage. You say it was 2005, is that right? Barry Hensley: January. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: You went to Canada to get legally married there. When had marriage equality become the law in Canada? Barry Hensley: Not too long before that, I don't think. Terry Baxter: I think it was about three years. Barry Hensley: Yeah, just a few years. Terry Baxter: But it was interesting that when we went, you had to go to the capital of the province that you were getting married in to get the license first. So we went to Vancouver first to get the license. And we didn't know our way around Vancouver. And so we went in a drugstore and said, where's the Marriage License Bureau? And they �34 said, go down the street. They didn't just tell us, go down the street. Oh, you're getting married? Oh, how wonderful. And it was... Barry Hensley: So cool. Terry Baxter: Then we went and he said, are we going in the right direction? And another person says, oh yeah, you're going in the right direction. And every place we went, the people were saying thank you for visiting us and congratulations. And it was so contrary to what it was like in the United States where everybody was, if they were anything... Toby Jenkins: A lot of protesters. Barry Hensley: Don't ask, don't tell. If they were supportive of you, it would just keep quiet. And we even went to a liquor store and they said... Toby Jenkins: So what year, what month would you have gotten married? Terry Baxter: January. Barry Hensley: And we went from Vancouver to Victoria. Beautiful little 1912 bed and breakfast in Victoria. And they were so nice. The couple that lived there, husband and wife, have since split up, I think. But they arranged everything. They arranged the marriage commissioner. They arranged the flowers. They arranged an after party. They arranged everything for us. It was just a wonderful experience. And we had just a handful of people. We had three friends from Tulsa. Tom Neal was one of them who came to our wedding. Very small. Dennis Neill: And I think maybe right before you all got married, two other individuals from Tulsa went there and got married in Vancouver and ended up living there permanently. Barry Hensley: Oh man, what a dream that would have been. Dennis Neill: And do you remember them? Were they an inspiration for your decision to go to Vancouver? Terry Baxter: Barry, we decided we wanted to do it and Barry got online to start looking at places. Barry Hensley: So where in Canada in January? Terry Baxter: Yeah, where is it warm in January? And we realized, well, on the coast there. Barry Hensley: That's right. Terry Baxter: It's warm in January. I mean, there were hummingbirds there in January. Barry Hensley: Oh, it's so beautiful. I just love it so much. Terry Baxter: So it was basically decided, where could we go in January in Canada to get married? And we had always wanted to pick a place that would be some place we could remember. And that's why we actually went to Victoria Island. �35 Toby Jenkins: Since 2005, you’d been together 25 years. Terry Baxter: We figured we knew each other well enough by then to get married. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Why was it important to you to have your marriage, your relationship legally recognized somewhere, even if it wouldn't be recognized… Terry Baxter: I think the main reason was at that time, we were hearing more and more about people who are having medical situations in hospitals where their partner, longtime partner, wasn't able to be involved in decisions or even visit them in some places. And we had gone through all sorts of hoops. Barry Hensley: We spent thousands of dollars making sure that we had all the documentation we needed to protect ourselves. Terry Baxter: Even though you have that stuff, there's just assumptions if you're married that are made by people that you're gonna have 15 pages of documentation. But if you have a marriage license, it's just instant proof. And interestingly, I mean, I'm glad we got married in Canada because if the United States changes things and wants to retroactively do away with that, like they are with the people who have changed their sex on their birth certificates, they can't undo the sovereign act of the government of Canada. So the Supreme Court can do all they want to and we're still married. Barry Hensley: But the Defense of Marriage Act had just been a big thing at that time. And so we really realized that it wasn't gonna be in the United States for some time to come, which was fine. Terry Baxter: We were surprised, but. Barry Hensley: Oh, we were so pleasantly surprised. Toby Jenkins: Terry, what would you like to tell us about working in municipal government in the city of Tulsa? Terry Baxter: Working for the government in the city of Tulsa was very interesting. One of the best things about the city is people don't look at the city or any government job for that matter as very opportunity filled. The pay is lower than in the private sector. A month after I got hired, a private company offered to hire me, and I told the people at the city what they were going to hire me for, and my boss actually went to the city commission at the time and asked for special personnel action to raise my salary to what the people were going to pay in order to keep me. So that was pretty good. But you have opportunity because the city's involved in so many different things, and so is the federal government. I think that's one thing that our current administration didn't realize when they got into office is that there are professional people doing professional jobs that you have no idea what they're doing, and they've got backgrounds to fit those jobs, and you can't just put somebody in there and hope it gets done right. But the other thing that does is if you're working for the city, you have the opportunity to move around to different jobs. �36 I always, and maybe it was part of how you protect yourself when you're growing up if you're gay, is you learn more about everything than most other people do, so they can't question your knowledge. And so even though I was working in the finance department when I first started, I learned about all the other departments, what they did, how they did it, how they interfaced with each other. If you remember at that time in 1985, 86, personal computers were first being introduced into the workplace, and people were still smoking in the workplace, so all those beige personal computers quickly became yellow from the cigarette smoke. But I started learning more about the personal computers and going more in-depth, not just how to use them as a software user, but how they work. Toby Jenkins: Did you take classes or study the manuals? Terry Baxter: I took some classes. Most of it was self-study and getting in there and just doing it. Barry Hensley: I had my own IT guy who was great. Terry Baxter: We had just installed a point-of-sale system right after, not too long after I got there. So all the cashiers, instead of writing paper receipts and then going to the key punch people to put into the computer, they would actually transact it through the computer. And it was written in a strange form of basic, not visual basic, just basic. And so I kind of learned how to program so that we could, if we needed to be able to issue a different kind of license, I could do the programming instead of hiring people to come in and do it from outside. So I kind of learned that, was in the finance department supervising the licensing area, which meant making sure that taxicab drivers were licensed and insured and all that kind of stuff. And I have an interesting little story. One year when a new taxicab company was trying to get a license in town, I explained to them what the rules were. And so he went away and then he came back two weeks later and said, I need to get that license. And I said, well, where's your certificate of insurance? So one of my positions was regulating taxi cabs, and this is a quick story. But this man wanted to start a new taxi cab, he needed a certificate of insurance. And for some reason he couldn't get one. He came to my office and started taking money out and setting it on the table, said, how much is it going to take for me to get my certificate of convenience and necessity? He kept putting these stacks of $20 bills in the bands on the table. I said, you don't have enough money. Just go use that money and get yourself some insurance and you'll get approved. And so as soon as he left the office with his money, I called the police department and talked to their legal person and he says, well, you should have taken the money. I said, why? And they said, well, he can't be guilty of, we can't find him guilty of trying to bribe you if we have no evidence. And I said, yes, but if I took the money, I would have been guilty of accepting a bribe and he could have gotten me in trouble for that more than you could get him in trouble. So it �37 just didn't make any sense to me that you had to have, the proof was that you did it. But how could I not, how could I do it and not be guilty of doing it? Toby Jenkins: So in that capacity, you actually had people who tried to persuade y'all or they tried to bribe you. To persuade you or pressure them to get their permits? Terry Baxter: Yeah, and because you couldn't do business without the city license. You know, a restaurant couldn't do business without a city license. Toby Jenkins: And you couldn't sell liquor at the Pride event, unless the city said so. Terry Baxter: One of the other interesting things was that, so then they created the Revenue Collections and Enforcement Division, and I was the first administrator of that division, and it was created because the state was not doing a good job of collecting city sales tax. The city got the state statutes and it said, and there was no reason in our agreement with the Tax Commission that we couldn't also collect our taxes. We couldn't tell them they can't collect it, but we could make an effort to get them to pay it to them for them to collect it. I started being the person sending letters out and visiting places that were in arrears on their city sales taxes. It was an interesting job, but I couldn't talk about it with anybody because, you know, there were a lot of restaurants people really loved to go to that we'd end up going out of business because I put them out of business. So I won't tell you who they were, but let's just say some of the favorite restaurants in the mid-80s that suddenly quit business because they weren't paying their sales taxes. And the same with hotel and lodging taxes. Hotels and motels collect a tax from the people who stay there, and it's collected on behalf of the city, and the entity gets to remit the money to the city and keep part of it if they do it in a timely manner. And there was a particular hotel that didn't do that, and that particular hotel operator had a brother who was a bigwig in Tulsa education circles who called the mayor. And so the mayor called me and asked me, have I done everything I could to make sure that that guy has opportunities? And I said, I've done everything I can under the ordinance. Are you asking me to see if there's another way to do it? And the mayor at the time said, no, I just want to make sure. But I got the feeling that he was trying to convince me to look the other way for a while. But it's interesting. So you have some interesting things in the city government. And then the reorganization of the government came around, and it became a city council form instead of a city commission form. And so the Finance and Revenue Department was merged into the Treasury Department under the Finance Director. The Treasury Manager, she and I just, we were really good friends until I worked for her, and then all of a sudden I was some kind of threat. I seem to have that pattern with female bosses. They're afraid of me. And maybe it's because of the discrimination they get in the workplace. When a guy comes up and is below their position but is really good at what they do, they're going back to thinking, well, that person's going to take my job away from me because that always happens when a man and a woman come up competing against each other. �38 Well, I don't think it always happens. I was a gay man, but I didn't have a sign on me. So I went from there to the Fire Department in their IT area, and my job at first was making sure all the fire houses were connected through a very obscure form of CO land, which was a central office land that AT&T offered that nobody bought. And so they basically gave it to the fire departments to use for free because we didn't have network connections between the fire department buildings. And then I went to 9-1-1 and got a new computer dispatch system put in. 2000 came in, and we stayed up. Everybody had their hands on deck at 9-1-1, and most of the calls we got were people calling, I just want to see if 9-1-1 worked. Toby Jenkins: So just so our viewers will understand, it was Y2K. Explain that. Terry Baxter: Y2K, people who wrote computer programs never anticipated that they would have to have a four-year date field. When it became 99, it'd go back to 00 the next year instead of 2000, and computers would go crazy because then all of a sudden you're back a hundred years from where you were just yesterday. And so every computer application had to be changed to have a four-year date for the year instead of a two-year date. And 9-1-1 was a fairly old system, especially in Tulsa, because we were one of the first places that actually had digital 9-1-1 services. And so we had to go back and work with AT&T and the vendors to fix all those computers. Everybody was expecting the sky to fall when 2000 rolled over from 1999. Barry Hensley: So Terry's down there at the office, they're all waiting to see what's going to happen. They're all sitting at home, are the lights going to go off, you know, what's going to happen? Toby Jenkins: This was real anxiety. Terry Baxter: It was, it was. Toby Jenkins: We thought planes might fall out of the sky. Terry Baxter: A lot of money was spent fixing things in anticipation of that so it wouldn't happen. And I guess it was money well spent because the sky didn't fall. And the next day we didn't go back 100 years. We've gone back 100 years in other ways now. But it wasn't for year 2000. And then, so then I was there for a while. And then another reorganization came under Mayor Taylor where she took all the IT areas and moved them into one centralized IT department. I got moved out of the 9-1-1 public safety communications into IT and became a project manager there in IT projects. And then I went to the mayor's review group, performance review group, for a year. And then back to 9-1-1 as director for a year. Because it got taken away from IT but not put into police or fire because they were competing for it. And so the mayor made it a separate entity and I was over there for that one-year period. And then he just decided to put it over into the police department where it still is. Then I went back to IT as the manager of the project management group and that's when I retired. So I was involved in a lot of different areas. And I take that as they gave �39 me the opportunity to be involved in those areas because the city requires jobs to be posted internally before they go externally. And if a qualified applicant applies for it then they're not required to accept that applicant, but they're strongly encouraged to give that applicant the opportunity to succeed or fail in that position. So much so that they have a policy that for the first 90 days, actually you're on probation for a year, but for the first 90 days it's kind of like no fault. The other department, if they backfill your position and you're not successful in the one you went to, you can actually go back to your old position. So usually there's a vacancy for 90 days. Toby Jenkins: So let me ask this for our viewers. So you're working in civil service, basically municipal civil service. Every time a new mayor came in, did the people that worked for the city of Tulsa, were they afraid they would be fired because the new mayor can... Terry Baxter: The new mayor has influence over civil service positions and the new mayor hires whoever they want for their own office. But the civil service protections have policies in place that they just can't fire you to be firing you for no cause. Toby Jenkins: Why is that critical, Terry? Terry Baxter: That is critical because if you did that and you fired for no cause and you cleaned out everything every time a new mayor came in, the expertise that is necessary to do the day-to-day stuff that citizens expect to have done, I just cannot imagine if a new water commissioner got in and they fired everybody, then how would our water get, the chemicals get adjusted appropriately because all the chemists were gone. People don't realize how many professional people there are in any government, city, county, state, federal government. You can't just run it like a business because the business is so diverse. You have to have people with expertise in all those different kinds of business. You can have a business philosophy. You can be overarching, we want to make sure that we're efficient, but to just say efficiency is to get rid of half the people and then don't even pick the people you get rid of. You could get rid of half the people in a lot of departments, but you better spend some time evaluating which people are the half that you get rid of because some of them you can't do without. It's an interesting thing. Politics is very interesting. I think the civil service part of politics, of government, keeps politics from basically throwing the baby away with the bath water every time a new elected official comes in. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, it's such a dangerous thing for elected officials to be able to gut an entire community, a nation, a state. Terry Baxter: And it's also difficult for the citizens, because if you don't have consistency between things that occur politically, then your life is less certain, and you don't know, you know, everybody's life is kind of up in the air about what's going to be happening and how you're going to be accomplishing the goals and objectives of the people who elected the people in the first place. �40 It's very unfortunate that it's almost like the public needs to have an education on how government is supposed to work, and then start assessing, can we make it better, rather than just saying, oh, government is just a waste, there's too many of it, too much of it, let's chop off half of it and see what happens. And it's frustrating, because people don't get the things that they need to have. I would hate it if the police department lost half the police force, because who knows if it would lose the right half. Toby Jenkins: Right. What year did you retire from the city of Tulsa? Terry Baxter: 2017. Toby Jenkins: 2017. How many mayors did you work for and city council? Terry Baxter: Worked for seven mayors. Some not very long, some longer. I mean, who remembers Mayor Crawford? He came from out of town, and as soon as he was not mayor any longer, he left. Let's see, the first was Terry Young, all the way back to the 84. I wasn't working there in 84 when the flood came, but I was in Tulsa the night it happened. Toby Jenkins: The Memorial Day flood, Memorial Weekend flood. Terry Baxter: The big flood before we had stormwater detention ponds. And that was under the county, out of the commission form of government at the time. The commission worked real hard to cooperate with each other to get the Department of Stormwater Management created out of people from streets, out of people from water and sewer, so that they could start figuring out how to control the damage that the floods in Tulsa did. Barry Hensley: They were professionals, they knew what they were doing, and it worked. Terry Baxter: And if they had done it in a political way, we may not have the safety that we have now from floods and storms, because it would never have happened, because the politics would have kept people from working with each other. Toby Jenkins: So you would have been in the city in 2010 when we passed the ordinance where you could not be discriminated against because of your sexual orientation. I'm just curious, prior to that ordinance and after the ordinance, was there a different temperament at City Hall? Did more people feel... Terry Baxter: Well, interestingly, the ordinance got passed a couple years after the city actually put that in the employees' anti-discrimination stuff. So the HR department and the mayor at the time were progressive enough to put that in the policies. And I know of a couple cases where before that was in the city's policy, and in both cases, the person who felt discriminated against because they were different prevailed with the Civil Service Commission. So even the Civil Service Commission was... It's interesting what you have in the government. We had a person actually transition from being male to female while they were in their job at the city, and they retained their job at the city while they were through that whole process. And it was very difficult at that time because some people were very �41 discriminatory toward that person. The person needed to have a restroom to use, and nobody wanted them to use their restroom. And so the mayor said, well, she can come use my restroom. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember what mayor that was? Terry Baxter: Kathy Taylor, when she first got elected, which was interesting. After the transition occurred, life still is not simple for that person, because people will be people. And he, she, afterwards, he, before, and since he was there as a he and a she, depending upon who you're talking about, it depends upon whether he was a he or she was a she. But, you know, she had courage to go. I cannot imagine going through that process in the same position, in the same job. And ultimately, she relocated to a different city, because her marriage didn't stick, even though at first they were trying to make it work. And so it was, it was a very interesting thing. But the point of that was, is the city realized that their employees needed some protection, and so they built that in the policy. And then later, the city council decided, hey, maybe we need to have that kind of protection in the city. Toby Jenkins: Y'all would have gone through that same thing at the library, because I remember when... I remember when you got ready to hire the new director, I can't remember his name right now, Gary. Barry Hensley: Gary. Toby Jenkins: That was one of the requirements he had, wasn't it? Barry Hensley: Well, years before, I'm talking about 1990 or so, Mike Williams, who was the head of the circulation department at that time, I was in the InterLibrary Loan, we went to Pat Woodrum, lovely lady, because there were no protections at all at that time, and we just were asking to slip sexual orientation into the policies, because we weren't under the city or the county's jurisdiction. We were our own thing, you know. It would just need to go through the Library Commission to get changed, and she wasn't ready to do that at that time. She said, well, are you all having a... is there a problem? You know, is there an issue I need to be aware of? And we said, no, we're just kind of trying to prevent an issue from happening, and she wasn't ready to do it at that time. I don't remember when it actually went in, but it was kind of a non-event by then. Toby Jenkins: Terry, anything else about your time at the city? And you mentioned you saw a transgender individual who had a kind of a rough time and experienced some harassment. Did you ever feel that you were targeted? Did you ever feel like you were impacted by people who knew about your private life and maybe were just being discriminatory? And did you witness any of that? Terry Baxter: I don't know if I was lucky or just... I never had that personally. I did witness it in other departments. It's, you know, one of the things about the city is it's got blue-collar jobs and it's got white-collar jobs, and I always was in a white-collar job. And maybe there's less discriminatory action in that atmosphere than in the blue-collar job, �42 but I knew of a couple of individuals in Water and Sewer that were discriminated against and overlooked for promotions. And that was one of the other reasons that HR, I guess, was interesting because the change in the city's policy was started by HR, not by an external force. So they just realized that, and probably realized after there had been a couple instances where people had filed complaints with the Civil Service Commission and those complaints were upheld, that they were indeed discriminated against for things that had nothing to do with a job, that there needed to be a policy so that they wouldn't have to have hearings. Toby Jenkins: Let me ask you just your perspective, having worked for the city, understanding how government works, municipal government, why have we had so much trouble with the City of Tulsa getting counselors and mayors to push forward an ordinance where for the city you cannot discriminate against people in the public spaces, in public accommodations, where businesses, because this was an issue I raised repeatedly, we took them stories repeatedly with multiple city councilors, multiple mayors to say that people in our community would be denied services at businesses. Everything from restaurant supply businesses, to hotels, toTerry Baxter: Well, the reason is called politics. It's because elected officials do what they perceive the people who elected them expect them to do. And in Tulsa, and in Oklahoma, and apparently, quite many places in this United States, there are people who can't see past the end of their nose, who are in positions of authority. And what they perceive may be a misrepresentation of what their electorate wishes them to do. But it's been going on forever. A friend of Barry's, the one that he was talking about earlier, Barry knew a person who was working for the city before we even were working here. And they would go to hotels and try to rent a room. And an African American person would go to a hotel to rent a room and they wouldn't do it. So then she asked one of Barry's friends and another friend of hers to go and be obviously gay and try to rent a room, and they would rent a room. So that's been going on since a lot… Barry Hensley: That's 1979 or 80, something like that. Terry Baxter: It's just people, and people who don't think they have to, who feel that they have been given permission by their religion, by their government, they decide not to support people who don't believe the same way they do. Barry Hensley: Apparently, empathy is a bad word these days, and I can't quite comprehend that. I can't wrap my head around that. Terry Baxter: We had a friend of mine who worked with me at the city say that you can't have empathy for someone unless you are exactly that kind of person. So you cannot have empathy for a minority unless you are that minority. And that's contrary to the whole definition of what empathy is, but apparently a lot of people believe that. You can't have empathy for me because you aren't me. Barry Hensley: And- You don't know what my struggle has been.. It's very strange. �43 Toby Jenkins: Anything else about your time at the city of Tulsa, and anything else you feel like you want to include in our time today? Terry Baxter: No, I'm just glad that there are those people in this world who still want to push forward and not go backward. And we hope to be part of that, but we're old folks now. So I'm lucky. I'm happy to see what a lot of the younger people are doing, that they're picking up the mantle and not letting the right wing take the charge. It's good. Toby Jenkins: Anything you would like to say to the generation coming after us or people who see this interview, maybe in 100 years when somebodyBarry Hensley: I just hope they can comprehend what people have gone through to get to the point where we are, and that life is too short to go through all of this drama of preventing other people from living their lives. I will never comprehend why that would be so important to me. I don't care what you do, as long as it's not illegal. But I think we've just been very fortunate. I know I have, my entire life, it has fallen into place. Finding Terry, getting the job, having such a good fit, inheriting my parents' house, all of this, being able to retire and travel. And life has just given me every possible break it could, and I don't understand it. There's no strategy on my part. I don't know how it happens, but I'm very grateful for it. And thank you all for recording the histories of so many people while you can. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Our pleasure. Terry Baxter: We're all different, but we're all trying to struggle to survive and help each other survive. That's the important thing. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: And it's our honor to be able to talk to people like you and tell your stories. Barry Hensley: This has been quite an honor for us. Dennis Neill: Wonderful. Thank you for sharing your story and your 46 years together. Barry Hensley: We'll have a big party at 50, I can tell you that. Toby Jenkins: This is June 30th, 2026. Today, Dennis Neill, Mary Bishop-Baldwin, Toby Jenkins, have had the pleasure here at Oklahomans for Equality, the History Project, to interview Terry Baxter and Barry Hensley. Thank you for your service to the citizens of Tulsa County. Thank you for your service to our community and for being such good examples of we're here and we're queer, so get used to it. Terry Baxter: Happy Pride. Barry Hensley: Back at you. Thank you. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Terry Baxter and Barry Hensley Interview Subject The topic of the resource Terry Baxter and Barry Hensley Oral History Project Interview from June 30, 2026 Description An account of the resource This episode features a conversation with two long-time partners from Tulsa, Oklahoma, sharing their life stories, experiences with the LGBTQ+ community, and insights into the history of gay life in Texas and Oklahoma. Discover their journey through love, family rejection, activism, and resilience. In this episode, Terry Baxter and Barry Hensley share their experiences with LGBTQ+ advocacy, their careers in public service, and personal stories of love and resilience. Discover how their efforts have shaped community acceptance and the importance of authenticity. Interview conducted by Toby Jenkins on June 30, 2026, transcribed by Dennis Neill on July 10, 2026. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Barry Hensley, Terry Baxter, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 30, 2026; July 10, 2026 2026 activism AIDS AIDS/HIV Barry Hensley coming out community Dennis Neill Diversity family Gay Rights HIV/AIDs LGBT history marriage equality OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript photo photos Pride Terry Baxter Toby Jenkins transcript Tulsa https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/b95930bb43b6204cc0b535ce32caa168.mp4 469e654a90e50910f02a606edc370ad8 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/de83922a814abfccb89b44324379c8b2.pdf 24694ed11bcd4bf4f24f336d45fea72a PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Tom Neal Interview Conducted by Dennis Neill Date: April 30, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, May 23, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Tom Neal Summary In this in-depth interview, Tom Neal shares his life journey, from growing up in Oklahoma to becoming a community activist and publisher. He discusses his experiences with LGBTQ+ advocacy, the evolution of Tulsa's community spaces, and his reflections on social progress and challenges. Keywords LGBTQ+ history, Tulsa community, activism, journalism, HIV/AIDS, LGBTQ+ rights, community building, personal story Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction 00:29 Tom Neal's Early Life and Family Background 01:15 Education and Early Influences 02:11 School Experiences and French Class Antics 03:11 College Years and Architectural Studies 04:21 Moving Back to Tulsa and Community Involvement 07:16 Growing Up LGBTQ+ in Tulsa 08:38 Realization of Sexual Identity and Puberty 09:46 Early Role Models and Family Support 11:20 First Awareness of Being Different 12:28 Family Reactions and Relationships 13:54 Exploring Sexuality and Personal Growth 15:16 Involvement in LGBTQ+ Organizations and Activism 16:42 Community Engagement in Dallas and Tulsa 18:40 Founding Tulsa Family News 2 �20:05 Courage to Be Open and Advocate 22:12 Memories of Bruce Goff and Architectural Roots 24:08 First Encounters with HIV/AIDS in Los Angeles 27:24 Activism and Civil Rights Work 35:19 Journalism and Publishing Journey 42:54 Proudest Achievements and Challenges 44:17 Memorable Moments and Mistakes in Publishing 45:24 Reflections on Community and Progress 50:22 Involvement with Oklahoma LGBTQ+ Organizations 58:51 Early Days of the LGBTQ+ Center in Tulsa 01:06:49 Community Challenges and Progress 01:11:49 The Impact of Media and Community Scattering 01:16:46 Reflections on Activism and Community Building 01:23:18 Future Plans and Personal Reflections Tom Neal Oral History Interview April 30, 2026 Dennis Neill: Good morning. It is April the 30th, 2026. I am Dennis Neill, and I am in the Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library at the Oklahoma Equality Center, and I'm here with Tom Neal. We have the pleasure of interviewing him, and with me is Mary Bishop-Baldwin, an archivist that is working with us here at the Center. So Tom, would you introduce yourself by mentioning your name and your age and where you grew up? Tom Neal: I'm Tom Neal. I'm 68. I was born in Oklahoma City, but we moved here when I was three, so I pretty much consider myself being from Tulsa. Dennis Neill: And tell me a little bit about your early life, your family life, your education as an adolescent. Tom Neal: Sure, so my father is a retired anesthesiologist, and he moved here to start the anesthesia department at St. Francis, and of course at that time, St. Francis was the edge of the city, and our little housing development, Holiday Hills, was about the only only place to live that was near the hospital. I think that was even before the LaFortunes donated their farm to become LaFortune Park. I don't remember this, but that's what I remember my mom saying. I have four brothers, two older, two younger. I'm biologically related to my three younger, two younger brothers, excuse me, and my two older brothers were adopted by my family, though they're biologically related to each other. Went through TPS, Carnegie, which I'm proud to say is still considered one of the best schools in the city, elementary schools, Nimitz, and then Memorial, and most people usually get thrown out of private schools and wind up going to a public school. I managed to get thrown out of a public school and wound up finishing up at Holland Hall my last couple of years, so I'm not sure it's a distinction to be proud of, but it's part of my history. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: What did you do to get kicked out? 3 �Tom Neal: I think I smarted off to one of the disciplinarians who was a coach, and they had sent me home for something, and I was feeling oppositional, so instead of going home, which most kids probably want to go home, I went to my French class, and he came and threatened to drag me bodily out of the French class, and so I spoke to him only in French at that point, which of course, and he later told my parents that I had cussed him out in French. I don't know, I didn't know when he cussed words in French, so that wasn't actually true, but anyway….wound up being one of the best things for me academically. I spent a couple semesters, well, I spent one semester at the American College in Paris. I was a little too young as a freshman to be that far away from home. There's a reason you do it in junior year, but I came back and went to the University of Tulsa for a couple semesters, and then I transferred to Rice in Houston and finished up there, class of 1980, with a degree in art and architectural history. Not very employable, but very interesting, and also a degree that involved a lot of writing, which may be relevant to other things. I also wound up having pretty intensive writing instruction when I was at Holland Hall, so that was a benefit there, too, as well as a couple of really good French teachers at Holland Hall. Then I moved from Houston to Dallas, started going to architecture school at the University of Texas at Arlington, and then left to go to an architecture program in Los Angeles, lived there for about four years, and then decided that the day that they had, well, this is just circumstantial, but the day that they had both an earthquake and a tornado in Los Angeles is the day that I moved back to Tulsa. So, and then worked here in Tulsa for a couple years, particularly for two architects, Kathleen Page and Rachel Williams-Zabrowski. Wonderful, wonderful people, who, after I worked with them maybe two years, Kathleen took me aside and said, we're firing you, not because we don't like your work, but because you need to go back to school and finish your architecture degree, because I had begun it, but not finished it. And I said, well, gee, thanks, maybe, but, so I wound up shopping my credits to Oklahoma State and then to OU, and Oklahoma State, they're like, well, you didn't do it here, you need to start from the beginning, and OU said, we're going to give you credit for almost everything, so I'm a Sooner, that was a no-brainer. So Rice, 1980, University of Oklahoma, 1989. Lived in Dallas again and then came back to Tulsa after my mother had an aneurysm, which she survived, thanks be to God, and have been in Tulsa. And that was probably, well, you [Dennis] and I knew each other before. I had met you when TOHR was almost new, and you and Doug [Hartson] and all that crew were doing stuff at the Aaronson Auditorium. But I think that might have been when I was working for Kathleen. And then I came back in 93 and got involved in, went to Pride, at that point still kind of in the wilds of Mohawk Park, and kind of got involved in the community. Kelly was leading things, Kelly Kirby was leading things then, and kind of went from there. Before I had a little, I'd been involved in a retail, a lesbian owned retail store in Dallas on Cedar Springs, in the heart of a kind of gay village. And so I tried to recreate that in Tulsa, even though it's a very different dynamic. Dallas had that concentrated 4 �little bit of community, whereas now and then, Tulsa's community is kind of scattered. And I had a store at the Silver Star Retail Store for about a year. Dennis Neill: Do you remember what year that would have been? Tom Neal: That would have been about probably 94-ish, 1994-ish. Dennis Neill: And was that Tomfoolery? Tom Neal: Yes, it was called Tomfoolery. Yeah, and it was a, kind of like Tulsa Family News, it was a, compared to some LGBT retail establishments, it was a pretty vanilla, clean, I didn't have things that you wouldn't, that you'd be ashamed to show your mother, for example. So, same with the paper, did not, tried to be a legitimate news outlet within my skill set. Anyway, so how am I doing? Dennis Neill: Great, so let's talk a little bit more about your early years, growing up in school, kind of your peers and your activities both within the school and any out of school activities that were of particular interest to you during that growing up phase. Tom Neal: Golly, well, I was like a lot of gay kids, I was probably pretty obviously gay, from elementary school, and I do remember getting harassed, at that time, it was just bullying, it was kind of the ethos of the time. A little bit at Carnegie, more so at Nimitz, junior high seems to bring out the worst, particularly in boys, but there's some mean girls too, you know. And actually, I remember also getting harassed at Memorial, there was one young man who used to, I didn't, I don't think I even knew his name, I don't think I'd ever met him, but whenever we would encounter each other in the hallways, he would scream faggot at me, which was, well, that's lovely. And I'm like, you know. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: How did you react to that? Tom Neal: Well, it made me angry, but there wasn't, I mean, there were no, there were no very few, to my knowledge, no support resources. I, like a lot of gay men of that era, tried to, was kind of in denial. I think, I do remember at age 16, I decided, being gay is not very easy and I'm not going to be gay, because I'm just a pig-headed gay and I figured I could just kind of will myself not to be gay. And that lasted until 24. And I was in a relationship with a young lady and she broke up with me and I thought, probably this is the time I need to just acknowledge, but we lived together and, to some degree had a fairly successful relationship. Dennis Neill: Any children? Tom Neal: No, no, no, no. We were not married and we did not have children. We worked really hard not to have children, trust me. Dennis Neill: So, going back a little bit to when you were first feeling your identity, can you talk a little bit about your evolution of realizing what your identity is and how you experienced that early on? Tom Neal: I think the thing that's important to remember, I’m a little bit of a history nerd, so, I was born in 1957, so 1977, I was 20. Back five years, 1972, I was 15, right? If I'm doing the math right. And 1972 Stonewall had only happened three years before. 5 �There was no, there was not, I mean, if you wanted to like look at images of a male figure, I think, like, you got to check out the football players' tight pants and look at the underwear section in the Sears and Roebuck, which is all airbrushed by the way, so. So, I mean, there was no, there was no, there was no, I mean, there was actually no role models. There was nothing out there and particularly, maybe in New York or, California, but not, I don't think so even there particularly, but even less so in Tulsa, Oklahoma. My parents, who wound up over the years being tremendously supportive of TOHR and the things I did with the community, loaning me, donating at times, loaning me their truck if we needed to set up things for Pride when we did the first Pride in Owen Park. Even though they were old school conservative Republicans, not the new ones, faithful Presbyterians and in hindsight, given that I could have been born into a Baptist or some kind of evangelical kind of tradition, I'm really grateful because the Presbyterians didn't say anything homophobic. We didn't exist. They didn't acknowledge our existence, but that was more benign than certainly other options. I met a young man at Trinity recently who identified himself as a refugee from a Southern Baptist upbringing. Dennis Neill: When did you first kind of distinguish between being gay and being heterosexual or being homosexual? When did that first kind of come into your mind? Tom Neal: Puberty. I mean, puberty hit and I knew that, I'm like, okay. One of these things is not like the other and I'm like, the other dudes are like, hey, there's this girl who will meet you behind New Haven Methodist Church and you can have some fun. This is in junior high, mind you, and I'm like, I couldn't get out of the, I'll pass. I mean, I knew that I didn't want to do that, and I think that's pretty. Dennis Neill: Did you date at all in junior high? Tom Neal: Just the standard, ask a girl to go to a dance because your best buddy was going to a dance and, so you wanted to go with them and, you know. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Realizing this about yourself, that you were different, did that scare you? Tom Neal: No, but I think I was really lucky. Our mother was a woman of very, very strong character. She had endured, survived some really serious health challenges as a young woman and I think she just, I don't know, I think somehow we got imbued with that strength of character, , that I'm not the problem, y'all may have a problem, but I'm not the problem, who I am. And that's a gift from my parents that I cannot underestimate. So no, I basically… like I know that young LGBT plus people sometimes have suicidal thoughts, that kind of stuff, and I'm like, F that. I am fine. The problem is with you guys. Dennis Neill: So how did you explore your sexuality with your family, both your parents and your siblings? How did that evolve and have there been issues that have brought discomfort to either you or the family? 6 �Tom Neal: I don't think my older brothers talked about it. We didn't talk, but they're enough older. My oldest brother was born in 1949 and my next brother in 51, so they were off into the world while I was growing up. So we have a good relationship now, but we weren't, they were awake. They were off at college, one brother was in Korea. So less of an issue. My youngest brother is seven years younger, so he was a baby during some of this time. Tom Neal: Really my next younger brother, to whom I'm probably, I hate to pick favorites, closest, but we talk every day now that you can talk for free, and he somehow fell into more evangelical traditions, faith traditions. And so at times it was very difficult. I mean, for a while he worked for American Airlines and I think they still do, but particularly then they had non-revenue benefits where family members could fly for next to nothing. And at one point he was like, you're using these benefits to go do gay things and I, you can't, I forbid that you should do that because you're doing gay things. And I don't approve. And I'm like, I said, you don't tell your mother-in-law what she can go do with her non-revenue benefits, you know? So, I mean, because I was living in Dallas and I went to ILGA, which is the International Lesbian and Gay Association Conference in Stockholm. And the only reason I could do it was because I had basically an almost free ticket, though I did have some application fees and DGA, Dallas Gay Alliance, it was called then. I asked them to give me some funds to help with the trip and, so, and I... Dennis Neill: So, that is after you finished which level of education you were... Tom Neal: That was, that was after I finished up at Rice. No, that was probably after finishing both degrees, because I lived in Dallas in between the degrees, and then I lived in Dallas after the degrees, because I graduated from OU, had enough to go to work with Stan Grala, who's the G in GH2, and probably should have worked for Stan. We had a great working relationship. The H's, Mike and Kara Hall, went to work for him. Stan designed horse barns. He was an equestrian architect. Very different practice, right? But I wound up working for a firm here in Tulsa, and then I got an opportunity to work for RTKL, which is a very prestigious firm in Dallas, and I moved back to Dallas and worked for them. What was the question? Circle back. Dennis Neill: Kind of your activities in Dallas. Tom Neal: I just was involved in community stuff. Obviously kind of had the bug in. I had gotten involved in LGBT plus activism at OU, because we were trying to get a nondiscrimination policy for OU, which the university did not have, and they were not particularly willing. They were actually quite unwilling to add that on, and so we lobbied the Board of Trustees, Board of Regents. I went to a black alumni dinner once to talk to the one black regent, just to see, because it was the only opportunity to get face-to-face with her. Since this happened, OU's gotten there. I wish it got there a lot faster, much to my chagrin. I think Laura [Belmonte] was a big part of that, to be honest. I kind of found my voice there. I never really wanted, thought I would be an activist. So I'd gone there because I already had an undergraduate degree. My course load was lighter. My first year was, so I didn't have to do all the distributions. All I had to do was the architecture 7 �program. Well, the first year I got most of that out of the way, so my second year I'm like, and I ran for the Student Congress, and got elected, and again was just really agitating to try to get all this, and then when I came, after I finished up, I kind of continued that in the community, and that was in Dallas. I was involved with GLAAD, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, which at that time, it was not a single office national organization. It was a bunch of chapters around the country. There was a chapter in San Francisco, Los Angeles, New York, obviously D.C., maybe Atlanta, I don't know for sure, but one in Dallas, and got involved with that. And my dear friend of mine, CeCe Cox, who's from Bartlesville, who's been the head of the gay, the equivalent of OkEq in Dallas, was kind of my comrade-in-arms in that, and we kind of built GLAAD and went to organizing meetings. In the process of trying to create a national GLAAD organization, we had meetings all over the country to do that. Dennis Neill: How were you finding the fight at OU? Tom Neal: At OU? I am class of 89, and I went there in 87, so it would have been between 87 and 89. Dennis Neill: And did you have an organized gay or lesbian group on campus that was helping you? Tom Neal: Yeah, yeah, we did. Dennis Neill: Were you very involved in that? Tom Neal: I was one of the leaders of that at one point. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Let me ask you about that. Tom Neal: Yeah. Dennis Neill: You were working on a graduate degree in architecture at that time or another undergraduate… Tom Neal: So I actually took a second undergraduate degree, but in architecture, you can do a four-year degree, but then you have to have a two-year master's in order to have a qualifying degree to be professionally licensed. Or you can do a five-year degree, which qualifies you for professional licensing. So I went and spent two more years, combined with my other undergraduates, to get a B-Arch, which is a five-year degree. In hindsight, I wish I had gotten a master's, because later, I wound up teaching at TCC, and if I had had a master's, I could have continued teaching. But anyway, that's... Maty Bishop-Baldwin: So while you were there, you said there were no protections for LGBT people. Tom Neal: Correct. 8 �Mary Bishop-Baldwin: But yet, you were willing to put your face and your name out there and say, hey, I'm gay, and we need these protections. What gave you the strength and courage to do that when you knew that you could be expelled just for being gay? Tom Neal: Well, I don't think they were actually doing… I don't know that they would have done that. I guess they could have technically, but I don't think they would have because they'd have to, they'd lose way too much of the university. But two, I would go back to my blessed mother whose, courage in life, kind of informed, my, I don't know, maybe it's the Zodiac is somewhat esoteric, but, Leo, I mean, I'm like I'm right and they're wrong. Dennis Neill: Could you post posters about your meetings? Were you undercover… Tom Neal: No, we were not undercover and in fact I think we had student funding like any other student organization. Somebody else had won that battle before I got there and because they started, I was not there then. But every student organization needs a faculty sponsor, and our faculty sponsor was a groundbreaking African-American professor, Dr. Henderson- I can't remember his first name, not gay, not even remotely gay, but committed to the notion that people, all people, should be treated fairly, and as a black man understanding some of that struggle. Dr. Henderson agreed to be the faculty sponsor and, like I say he'd been that for some time. He didn't really do anything day to day. You know we had to have a signature, I think once a year and yeah, so you know there was another advantage. My blessed father paid for my tuition, so I wasn't dependent on scholarships. I had a certain amount of economic invulnerability. I went back to OU when I was 29, and at 29, hopefully you've got your act together a little bit better and you know I'm like… Dennis Neill: what was the name of the organization? Tom Neal: That's a good question, Dennis. I can't remember. I could probably Google it, it's probably out there with like everything else. Dennis Neill: So, being in an architectural program at OU, did you have any background on Bruce Goff and his role at OU? Do you want... about what you encountered at OU and then the subsequent history, if you know about how OU kind of redeemed Bruce Goff? Tom Neal: Well, it's really interesting because I wound up again my last year- I had a little extra time, so I was involved as a student representative of different things, like we had a lecture committee, and I was the student rep and this kind of stuff. And I remember having lunch. We had an Englishman who was one of our professors there and they brought a speaker- in no idea who that speaker was. I was invited to lunch at the faculty club or whatever, and we were having lunch with him and they were talking about Bruce Goff. But at that point he was like we don't talk about the fact that Bruce Goff was a gay man and that the university was hostile to him during some of that time, and I of course brought that up and I thought the English guy was going to kind of have a little fainting spell perhaps. But yeah, no, certainly, even then Bruce Goff has certainly been radically embraced by the university. Now wasn't as much then. They weren't, but 9 �they were proud of his work. They just didn't want to talk about the- you know the not so pretty history of how the university treated him. Dennis Neill: If you go into the architectural school at OU now, do you see evidence of Bruce Goff? Tom Neal: I would imagine, though I have not been back in some years. I haven't been in that building since I served on the Tulsa Preservation Commission for three years and we had a training session at OU and that's the last time I was there, but that was when Dewey Bartlett was mayor. So that gives you- I can't remember the date on that, but that's been seven or eight years at least, if not maybe longer. Dennis Neill: Where were you when you first learned about HIV-AIDS? Tom Neal: Oh, absolutely, I lived in Los Angeles, which is one of the epicenters. LA, New York, San Francisco were all hit hard and I had a couple of kind of best older, best friend, gay guys who had been my neighbors and they kind of adopted me. They were like my gay uncles, and they started. My friend Kerry got sick first and then wound up... it was the classic early, what are we talking? Nineteen, eighty-three, probably about eighty-three, because I graduated from Rice in eighty and lived a couple years in Dallas, went to California and Kerry and Phillip were partners. We lived in the same loft building in downtown Los Angeles before it was stylish to do so, by the way, it was right in between Little Tokyo, which was nice, and Skid Row, which was not so nice, and we were closer to Skid Row. But they were my neighbors there and then we also wound up living in an apartment building in mid-Wilshire, much nicer part of town. Kerry got sick, wound up in part of the big hospital, public hospital. It was east of downtown and in those days people got pneumonia, they died. It's that fast and nobody knew what the hell was going on. You know Kerry… digressing slightly, well, he was from Indiana, so he went home, Philip went with him, I flew back. In those days it was prior to 9-11, so you could like, I actually took a thing of sushi because he wanted sushi. So I carried sushi halfway across the country and then he couldn't eat it because he just wasn't feeling well. Those were kind of dire days. And I remember going to get my first HIV test, which at that time nobody in Los Angeles was doing it. The only place was the center in Long Beach. You drove 30 miles to Long Beach and then you waited for two weeks because it was not an instant test, and thanks be to God. You know I'm- the term had not been invented yet- but I realized that I'm probably demisexual, which means I kind of like to know people before I have sex with them. I'm not going to go into too much sex here, but so I think that probably might have…maybe didn't get infected because of that, because I'm like I just am not comfortable with this and so, but that was not the ethos at the time. Dennis Neill: I'd like to spend a little bit more time about your personal knowledge of HIV/AIDS, since it's shaped generations, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you first encountered it in LA and you've been in Dallas and Tulsa. Just talk a little bit more about your path in activism particularly related to HIV/AIDS. 10 �Tom Neal: I think to be honest, I focused more on civil rights issues because there were already a lot of people working on HIV issues, particularly when I wound up back in Tulsa after 93. TOHR had the testing program that later became HOPE. So those kind of were covered when I was involved in TOHR leadership. Of course we were, they were us and we were they and you know being supportive of the two programs. it's just, I don't know, it's just, I mean I'm a regular visitor here for the testing program. So I even brought my… I had a foster kid for a while and I brought my foster kid because he's like I need to get tested. And I said, and my foster kid was straight, very straight, extremely straight, and I said, Nathan, your risk factors are really, really low. I mean, I'm sure we can do this, but I don't see…What I didn't know, the other tests they do, along with the HIV test, is syphilis. Yeah, my foster kid tested positive for that. So we had a little conversation about safer sex as well as the concept of statutory rape, because I think the young lady with whom he'd been involved, who apparently was the initiator, I said it doesn't matter if she initiates it, if she's 14, you're going to prison. He was 17. So yeah, sorry, I have a little ADD, and so we, my conversations, are almost always meandering, so I don't know really how to add to that. It's always been kind of part of, I mean, I feel, on some level, I think any of us, you know gay men, but lesbians too, not necessarily for the same reason. We've all kind of been informed and scarred by that experience, because… Dennis Neill: Have you lost many acquaintances or friends to AIDS. Tom Neal: Some, probably would have been more if I'd spent more time in more exclusively gay circles. But, like I say, in Los Angeles I was going to architecture school. And the majority of the people I was around were heterosexual. So at least in that time their exposure and their risk factors were a lot lower. So enough, particularly Kerry and Philip. I mean I remember I kept up with Philip after Kerry died and Philip was from, he was from Massachusetts and went back there and I remember thinking I need to call, I need to call, I need to call see how he's doing. But I kept putting it off because I was really I was afraid that I would hear that he had died. And I finally called and I got his mother and he was, he was very, very Italian Catholic family, you know. So I mean, that was his Boston identity and we had a sad conversation, because she was like she- not her exact words, but it was like honey, you know. Now he's gone, you know. So anyway, yeah, I don't know. Dennis Neill: I should have asked you this earlier: design has been kind of your life. What was your stimulus that got you so interested in design work and was there any other career path that you considered other than architectural? Tom Neal: Well, I published a newspaper for eight years, so without any formal journalistic training other than the writing that I alluded to at Holland Hall, and then if you're in an art history program, basically art history is dealt with by writing about it, right? So I think I developed those but, and that I kind of more fell into might also have been kind of an outgrowth from the work with GLAAD, an awareness of how critical media is to our community towards representation. 11 �But the architecture stuff, I think it was always an interest. So my mother is from a little tiny town called Wewoka in east central Oklahoma and my grandfather had a barber shop in downtown Wewoka next to the movie theater. He'd always wanted to be a physician, but his father had what we now call Alzheimer's or dementia and wound up in the state. My great-grandfather would have been in the state hospital in Norman, because that's all they had, that's all they could do. Tom Neal: So he wound up being a barber because he had, like I don't know, half a dozen siblings and somebody had to help take care of them. So and my grandmother learned to be a beautician. They had the barber shop in front and the beautician shop in the back and in those days, you had magazines galore, right, because pre-Internet we didn't all look at our phones, so you had like the hunting magazines and the sports magazines in the barber shop in the back they had like House Beautiful, House and Garden and whatever those kind of things, and some of them would show one of the magazines would have plans, would have the floor plans of the houses, and I remember being you know little kid, I was fascinated. I would sit in the barber shop or in the beauty shop, depending, and look at the magazines and study the plans. The interest was there. I also think that if you think about left brain, right brain and wiring the way, I think I have a memory which also fits with an art history degree. I have a strong visual memory, much more so than other things, so like for love or for money, I can probably not remember the name of a song or song lyrics. That kind of information is like gone as soon as it's in my head it's gone, but visual stuff stays with me and, by way of example, years ago I was, I had worked for 10 years doing kitchen bath design for Home Depot while I kind of did my practice on the side. So I met a lot of people. It's a downtown store, very diverse, you know north side, south side, midtown, wherever- and I'd gone into Petty's- and God rest its soul right. So for something I didn't usually shop there- and there was an older, very distinguished couple and I said, oh, Tom, how nice to see you and I'm going… Usually I can remember faces but I'm like I have no idea who these people are, not a clue. You helped us with our kitchen, this, that and the other, and we still love it three or four years later. And they said: and that island. And I said, oh, the island. Oh, wait, a minute now did we do this, this? And this wasn't the island, kind of like this. I remembered the island. I could not remember who they were, but I could remember the visual, the design that we did for that. I think for better, for worse, that's where my brain wiring is. And I'm at the risk of being immodest, I'm pretty good at what I do because I think I'm working with my natural tendencies or skillset. Right. Dennis Neill: So you bring up your interest in writing and, excuse me, journalism. Let's talk a little bit more about your early introduction into publication and writing. And I do recall, right, Tom, that you were a writer for the Parachute. And I believe that was Chuck Breckridge. Tom Neal: Who's still in town. Yes. Reverend Chuck. Good. That'll be wonderful. Dennis Neill: So just talk us through, kind of chronologically, your interest in journalism, how you got involved and how the new world has impacted journalism and why you decided to stop publishing. 12 �Tom Neal: So I came back to Tulsa, I, at that point was, I mean, I had my little retail store that I wanted to do, but I also needed something else to make a little bit more money. And so Chuck was doing a newspaper, he was based in Wichita, but he was distributing the paper here. And he, I think, offered a job to sell advertising for him. So I took that with the understanding I would also write, I would write to him, I'd be the local writer. And I did that for him for a few months before I realized that I could do it myself and cut out the boss, which maybe is not very nice, but, and so that's when I started Tulsa Family News, title, definitely deliberately ironic. And but with, we were, I had an AP subscription, it was, the intention was to be within the boundaries of my skills, as good and as serious of a newspaper as we could do. And I did that, I think it was eight years. I later, the store closed because the lease ended. And I was also, I don't smoke. And being in a smoky bar till two o'clock in the morning, most of the nights of the week was just a little much. And I wound up taking a job at Home Depot and fell into the design position then. And I was just burning myself the candle at both ends, it was just too much to work full time, do the newspaper. And I finally, after eight years, just said, I’ve, I just, I can't do this. It was right on the edge of the transformation because of the Internet and that kind of thing. If you think about Dennis and Mary, when I came back to Tulsa, we were just beginning to have cell phones, because I remember the number I still had today is one that I got through the LGBT business group that, there was somebody offering cell phones at a discount to the group, and that was my first cell phone. And then personal computers were just coming in, well, had just started coming in when I was at OU in 1989, because they had the first very rudimentary CAD programs, Computer Aided Drafting. At the time I was doing this it met a need in the community, in my opinion, continue to fight battles, like trying to get Tulsa City County Public Library to let us be in the library, free distribution, which they offered without question or restriction to everybody until we ask, God bless Pat Woodrum. And then they changed the rules so that they didn't have to let us in. And I think that went on until I, let's see if I can remember his name, he was a County Commissioner at the time, and he's since, I think he lives mostly in Buena Vista, Colorado these days, but I got a hold of him and said, this would probably be a really good First Amendment lawsuit, and really embarrassing for the City County Library system that they are not allowing a publication in when their whole purpose is to promote publications and reading, and shortly after that the policy changed. Dennis Neill: To allow you back in? Tom Neal: Yeah. To allow us, yeah. Dennis Neill: Do you recall what time frame we're talking about, and how long it took to resolve? 13 �Tom Neal: I think I was doing the publication between about 94, 93, 94, and eight years later, so around 2000, so it was sometime in that period. Maybe his name is Bob, I could look it up, but yeah, yeah. You would recognize the name, yeah. Dennis Neill: And was it every two months, is that when… Tom Neal: Every month. Every month. Dennis Neill: And then who actually printed the publication? Tom Neal: Well, so that was another thing. I got turned down left and right by printers, by other people, and I finally happened to talk to Dave, I can't remember Dave's last name, more of those escaping names, but he was the publisher of the Claremore Daily News, and I drove up to Claremore, and they published it for me, and then I went back to Claremore, got it, and then I dragged my backside all over town distributing it, you know. So it was pretty much a one-person show, me, me, and me. Dennis Neill: But now, how was John Christjohn… Tom Neal: At the time, he and I were living together… Dennis Neill: As partners? Tom Neal: Yeah and we had met in Dallas and then he moved up here and we're still friends. Full disclosure, he is a tenant in one of my garage apartments. It's kind of hard to find a place to live when you have three or four dogs and no money. So not trying to throw him under the bus too much. But anyway, so he wrote for me because he was kind of part of it and sometimes, he helped with parts of it. I had a number of writers. My friend Merry Schepers, I think wrote, something about the handy lesbian or something. She did home improvement stuff. There was Mark Wright who's an attorney, Native American attorney who I think lives in DC now and he would do food reviews and honest God, the ladies who started Wild Fork, he wrote a horrible, horrible, mean review of them. And I'm like, I'm gonna publish it. Try not to censor my writers. And they were furious at me for years and did not believe me that I, they thought I'd written it. And I'm like, I'm not that much of a foodie and no, there is a person, I'm not gonna tell you his name because that's part of the deal, but I did not write it. And I think they may have forgiven me, but for about 10 years I'm pretty sure they didn't forgive me, so. Dennis Neill: How about Dyke Devine? Was she a column in your paper? You recall that? Tom Neal: Maybe. I don't remember. Dennis Neill: I think that might have been Anna Dodwell that wrote it. Tom Neal: Yeah, it might have been. Yeah, yeah, because Anna and I are still, I don't think she lives here now. Tom Neal: Yes, she does. 14 �Tom Neal: I know we, I think we're Facebook connected, but you know. Yeah, yeah. Dennis Neill: So looking over your eight years of publications, what do you consider your greatest achievement, like a storyline or investigative report? What is one of your proudest moments of being a publisher? Tom Neal: Two things. I think I did, early on, did an interview with Susan Savage, which, I mean, getting a major, to our city, public official to interview with an LGBT publication, I think that was kind of a nice little coup. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: She was mayor at the time. Tom Neal: She was mayor at the time. I kind of had to shame her into it, so, but we got there. And, and then I did an interview with Steve Largent, who was either running for Congress, no, I think he was running for Congress, but later was our congressman, first district congressman, with whom I had tremendous political, theological and philosophical differences, but he was always very, very civil. He was a very decent man, at least interacting with him as a person. I like those, those two things. I think just surviving for eight years is maybe an accomplishment. Speaker 3: What was the rest of the question? Tom Neal: There was something. Dennis Neill: That was really it. How about a low, where you really feel like... Tom Neal: The lowest low, and you might appreciate this, is when I misspelled Tahlequah in the headline above the fold. That chapped my backside. You needed a copy editor, didn't you? But it was me, me, me, me, and me. I was, I was, and it was like, it was in print. I had however many copies I had printed every month before I even realized. I'm like, oh, something about some community organizing in Tahlequah or something with Northeastern State. I don't remember that. All I remember is that I screwed it up with the spelling. That, that really, I mean, I'm sure there are other things. I think there may have been a story that they jumped and then disappeared. But, considering that that has happened in major, in like the Tulsa World and other publications, and they had a lot more people to help them than I did, maybe I'll cut myself some slack. Dennis Neill: So, Mary, you have some other questions around journalism. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Let's see, when you were writing for Chuck Breckenridge for his publication, and you thought, I can do this myself, how did it feel to go out on your own in competition with him, the man who had been your boss? Tom Neal: Well, we had not worked together for very long. I mean, it was probably only maybe three or four months. And again, I have tried over the years to make a point to be civil with people, even with whom I've had an argument in the past, or with whom I have lots of disagreements. I mean, God rest her and Joe's soul, but Nancy MacDonald and I did not see eye to eye on a whole lot of stuff, and I was very vocal about it, and I wrote about it at times, and pissed off…I think there are still gay men in this community for 15 �whom Nancy was a saint, and they're angry at me about it. But she was like another mother, or at least an aunt, and Joe and my father are the same generation, and he practiced at St. John's, he was an anesthesiologist as well. So, I mean, I guess my point is, I kind of strayed away from your original question, but my point is, we've got to be nice to each other. Even if we, I mean, I'm sure I pissed you [Dennis] off about something somewhere along the way, though you've always been so kind and gracious to me, you know. So, I'm sure there have been other people. Well, Tim and I have struggled, you know. God bless him, but even we, these days at least, I think are civil. Yes, sir? Dennis Neill: So, what was your competition during that period of time? Of course, the Gayly has continued to publish over this period of time, and just knowledge about other publications would be very helpful during your era, or really any of the time that you weren't even publishing, your interest in the other journalistic world reaching out to our community. Tom Neal: Really, other than the Parachute, there have been things before. Oklahoma City, I mean, the Gayly has always been kind of OKC-centric, you know. I mean, and it was, maybe they're doing better now, but at that time they really, they were distributed in Tulsa, but they didn't really cover Tulsa to a meaningful degree. I think Chuck got busy with other, I don't know that he continued, I don't remember how long he continued the Parachute after that. Next thing I know, he's here and he's working in a religious capacity rather than this. To be honest, Dennis, I don't think there was much. But again, about the time I was shutting down was about the time that everything, the Internet exploded, you didn't need a local news. When I started, you couldn't get this news any place else to any significant degree. I was going through AP specifically, Associated Press, specifically looking for stories of interest to the community. The Tulsa World was not covering LGBT plus stuff, and the local broadcast media, and of course I'm a print snob anyway, so, I think TV broadcast is kind of stupid news, but it has reach. Dennis Neill: So do you have any background on the Star or the Metro Star? I think they may have come after you. Tom Neal: I don't remember them much, to be honest. Dennis Neill: I guess there was some perspective, but also a publication around it. Tom Neal: Yeah, I just, again, since I don't really go out, I mean, and that was true even when I wasn't 68 years old. Dennis Neill: And, as a sign of the times, this is the month that the Gayly had to go all digital, they no longer do hard print. Tom Neal: I did not know that, wow. Dennis Neill: Yeah, Robin's been so loyal, continue that publication, but just financially realized that she could not continue to sustain a hard copy. 16 �Tom Neal: You don't do journalism for the money. It's like teaching a TCC, you don't do it for the money. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: I can verify that. Tom Neal: Yes, ma'am. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Adjunct? No, I meant about journalism. Tom Neal: Oh, yeah, about journalism, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dennis Neill: So, Tom, let's talk a little bit more about your role and knowledge and involvement with OHR, then TOHR, and then Oklahomans for Equality. So we first formed the organization in 1980. When was your first exposure to what was then OHR? Tom Neal: 1980? Probably about three years after that, and I think it had become TOHR at that point. Dennis Neill: 1985. Tom Neal: Okay. Maybe it was, yeah, maybe, yeah. I don't know. I do remember going down and going to the Aaronson Auditorium, and there was Doug Hartson, greeter par excellence, and, it was, there was always kind of a program, I've told the kids running this place they need to go back and do that some, they need to have periodic meetings and a program of some kind, but we'll see. And then, like I say, and then I was back at OU, so I was out of the picture, and I was in Dallas, and then I was back from Dallas, so... Dennis Neill: And you said in 84 was when you came back to Tulsa, is that right? Tom Neal: Yeah, I think, I think, yeah, that's why I wasn't around for OHR. I spent, maybe, I'm fuzzy with numbers, it's kind of like song lyrics and titles, I get, I have to have something to tie a memory to, but class of 80, Rice, two years in Dallas, I thought it was four years, but maybe three or four years in Los Angeles, and then back, and then working in Tulsa, probably for two or three years before I went to OU in 87. Somehow that math doesn't add up, so, maybe I was in one of those places less long than I remember, so. Dennis Neill: So you would have been dating my roommate, Mike Williams, and that would have been around 87 and 88. Tom Neal: Yeah, right before I went to OU, and that's when you and John first met, if memory serves me, and you were in that house over on Cincinnati or Boston, one of those places. Dennis Neill: Yeah, Boston Court. Tom Neal: Yeah, and I think I just signed a carport for you guys. Dennis Neill: Uh-huh, that's correct. Tom Neal: I forgot about that. 17 �Dennis Neill: So tell me a little bit about that time frame, so you were here for, I guess, a short period of time. Tom Neal: A couple years. Dennis Neill: Were you dating Mike while you were in Tulsa, or were you also... Tom Neal: No, I, we petered out, I don't know, I don't remember what happened, but yeah, I was dating him when I was in Tulsa. There's another guy with red hair, whose name I can't remember. That was when Kathleen, when I first went to work for her, she worked out of her house over by, well, kind of not far from your house, that same neighborhood. And then she went into this old red brick building over here off of, over on 3rd Street, it's kind of isolated by itself, Detroit, right, 4th and Detroit, right there, and she worked there, and then I went to OU. I'll be blunt, I don't think I've had great luck with relationships. Mr. Christjohn being one of the last ones, and it is flawed and toxic in many respects, but it's of many years' acquaintanceship. Dennis Neill: Then, 83, 84, you're back, I mean, sorry, 93, 94, you're back in Tulsa. Tom Neal: Right. Dennis Neill: You've got the store going on Silver Star, you've got your publication going, and then how did the TOHR come on your radar when you came back and your involvement, including being on the board and president? Tom Neal: Yeah, well, I got involved because I got involved in Pride, because I went to that first, I just was barely back in town and went to Pride, and it was in Mohawk Park, much to my chagrin. It was like hidden, and it was swampy, we'd had rains, not surprising, early summer in Tulsa, it was rainy, that's flood land, and it was just a big stinkin' mess. Dennis Neill: And do you recall, was TOHR actually the sponsor, or was that when the bars were still doing Pride? Tom Neal: I think it was the bars, it was the bars, because, and I had kind of an in with it, because I was, I had just started renting space from John and, was it John and Steve, who owned the Silver Star, and so I got involved in organizing it, and pushed to move it, and we moved it to Owen Park. Dennis Neill: So the next year? Tom Neal: The next year. Dennis Neill: So would that be, do you think, 94 or 95, or can you kind of? Tom Neal: Probably 94, probably 94. And that was one of the years that Mom and Dad lent me the truck, and that was, and we think, I think it was in Owen Park for a couple of years, maybe, and then other people took it over and it went different places, I mean, at one point, the parade went on Brookside, right? Dennis Neill: Yes. 18 �Tom Neal: On Riverside. Dennis Neill: The information we have, and you'll probably have a little more since you're the board president doing this, you might recall that Greg Gatewood got very involved and helped organize the 1998 Pride, which was down the sidewalks, because we didn't have a permit. Tom Neal: Right, I remember that, I covered that. Dennis Neill: And so I think Nancy and Greg worked together, and then in 99, Greg pursued the permit. So that was the first time we had it at what is now Dream Keepers, which was the Veterans Park, and we're not exactly sure when TOHR stepped back in to run Pride, but you probably were present at about around that time, I think. Tom Neal: So I think probably it's very possible that I might have kind of made that happen, that the bartenders, the bar crew kind of they were still there but kind of stepped back and I think they were only doing it because nobody else was. We also had a lot of pushback from people who were very uncomfortable moving out of the far reaches of Mohawk Park because Mohawk felt safe, and I had Owen Park, particularly at that time, a fairly neglected part of the city. it's a long way from Edison Street. It's the only major street through there. Y'all are still gonna be pretty safe and isolated in there, but it's got shade and it doesn't flood, you know. So I mean it was pretty prosaic in some place in this time, because it was definitely before Greg, Deborah Starnes and IDeborah was president at TOHR and we signed the lease for the building on Brookside that now that had a sushi place recently in the bottom, over at near Weber's Root Beer. You know it's kind of a 1940s building and owned by a local slumlord. We got lucky that we wrote into the contract that we had to make sure that the elevator was working, which apparently hadn't worked for ten years, and he had to drop some change to get it working. But we got the working elevator. I think we poured a tiny bit of concrete at the front step to make a semi-ramp to get people in and that was where you know there was, and Peterson- Claudette Peterson, was up there and one of my memories is when we were trying to get it ready to use, there was no big room in there. It had been a dental practice, is my memory, and so there are all these little rooms and we got in there and it was the bunch of guys from FUSO, which was an AfricanAmerican men's HIV outreach organization, and there's nothing like having four or five black queens with sledgehammers and me taking out the solid plaster and metal lath walls between these like five or six rooms to create the bigger room so we'd actually have a meeting space up there and fortunately they were not structural. I did check, I did check, but yeah, so we, got that all out and created that room and, I wound up putting a flagpole made out of just a galvanized metal pipe from Home Depot and clamps- because, again, we had no money, we had no budget- up on the top of the elevator shaft and we had this enormous five-by-eight flag that I bought through my store, and it kept getting stolen. People would come and take it, take it, but, yeah, but it was remarkable because suddenly, Tulsa, Oklahoma, with relatively little LGBT plus visibility, there's this big-ass gay pride flag flying over Brookside. It was really kind of lovely. Deborah Starnes and I actually personally put whatever limited funds we had at risk by signing that lease because we were personally on the hook for it. 19 �Dennis Neill: So what was the stimulus of moving from where we are at 39th and Harvard? And who actually did the research to find the space? Tom Neal: That space? I think of Deborah and I… Dennis Neill: On Brookside, did you look at several different locations? Tom Neal: I think so at one point. Now, Tim Gillian would be a good person to talk to about that, because I know he was involved in some of the researching, because I remember- and Nancy was involved as well, because at one point, we went and looked at the freaking Ambassador Hotel as a gay pride center. It was a ruin at the time before he had been renovated into this. obviously, top-flight hotel. It had been empty for at least 10 years, maybe 20 years. We, I remember looking at that. We looked at what is now the Circle Cinema. This is obscure, lost, almost lost, facts, isn't it? Dennis Neill: Yeah, we actually looked at it again in 2022. I mean 2002. Tom Neal: Yeah, Circle Cinema, part of the back roof or something was coming down on it. Somehow, and I don't know if Nancy got like Nancy was pushing, she was, she was a suburbanist at heart, so she was always pushing…Oh, we can find this shopping center out here, and I'm like we need to be more urban. Gay people use that term broadly and generically. 41st and Hudson is not an ideal location, though they made it work there, you know so. So, yeah, so that we, yeah, we did that and it was there for a while. And then there was Steve H, I don't remember. Took over Horn, yeah, came after me, and then Greg and Kerry. Then at that point I'd step back. Dennis Neill: And was it your store that was in the center? Because there's that store… Tom Neal: At a certain point I think I just gave or sold. I don't think I mostly gave the leftover merchandise I did to the center to use to sell for their benefit. Tom Neal: I don't think, because once I once- you know Steve and John, God bless himhad some dude out of Oklahoma City who thought he could- he also had a newspaper, very short-lived, and thought he could have a newspaper and have a store and still live in Oklahoma City, and so they basically said: eh, we're doubling your rent and I'm like this is not a viable project at double rent, it's barely viable at the current rent. Thanks, guys, no hard feelings. That's when I kind of shut it down, I think at one point I tried to do some sales out of one of the MCC churches, but it wasn't really…Tulsa's a challenge because there is no really gay community, physical, geographical gay community. Dennis Neill: During your period as president on the board we still have the testing clinic. I interviewed Jeremy Simmons a couple of months ago and he recalls that we did create the name Hope while it was at TOHR and all he can remember is it was kind of like a committee decision to come up with Hope. He couldn't really remember the individual that came up with that name, any recollection. 20 �Tom Neal: I don't know that. I was not part of those conversations. My recollection is they had decided and there were problems with some of the state funding- the state was being kind of homophobic is my recollection, but I don't put money on that oneand they- Jeremy in particular and others- really felt like they needed to separate from TOHR in order to continue to get the funding that they were getting from the state. And some of us were really opposed to that, just probably more because we were being cantankerous and like no, no change is scary, you know. They came in and did a really good reading of the bylaws and came in and did an emergency ambush meeting and basically just overrode the vote and separated themselves out, which probably in hindsight I guess that was the right thing to have done. Dennis Neill: Were you president at that point in time? Tom Neal: I think I might have been. Dennis Neill: And so, maybe is that when you left maybe Dee Beasley became president, or who was your vice president. Do you recall? Tom Neal: Um, no, I do not recall, but Steve Horn succeeded me. Directly after me was Steve Horn, and then, directly after him, he got a job in Dallas or someplace out of town, and then it was Greg. The only person I can think… Dennis Neill: I think maybe Dee after… Tom Neal: I don’t remember, I don’t… Dennis Neill: Dee was only president for about three months Tom Neal: I don't know when that was. The only person I would mention because he was a stalwart. John Stanley was on my board. He wasn't vice president; he was just a great trooper who would do whatever he could to help and he passed. Dennis Neill: Fortunately, we do have an interview with him. Morgan [Allen], I think around 2002. So we have his transcript on our website. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: In 2002?? Dennis Neill: No, I’m sorry, in 22. Yeah, yeah, 2022. Tom Neal: I knew what you meant. No, well, and Morgan sang a really plaintive appellation, a cappella song, at his memorial service here. Yeah, it's just achingly beautiful, and I know her from Trinity Choir. She's in the choir, I'm not, and I asked her if she would do it and it was really kind. Dennis Neill: So, Tom, coming back to the period in the 1990s when you were acting with the TOHR, do you remember when you first got involved with the organization and what kind of caused you to be so interested in taking action and a leadership role in the organization? 21 �Tom Neal: I think I more fell into it than anything else. There was maybe a vacuum. You know somebody needed to do it and nobody else seemed to be stepping up again, coming back and doing Pride literally within a week, a couple of weeks, of having returned to the city, like end of May and coming in June, and pride was in June still then. And then the next year, and you know just the realization this could be done better. And so next year, I kind of did that, I think, a couple years, and then, like I say, Debra Starnes and I got along pretty well and she ran for president and then I think she had something that she had to step down and I was vice president and so became president. I don't remember if I got reelected in my own right or not, if I just finished out her term, I just don't remember at this point. But proud of the fact that though we did not own it, but for the first time in Tulsa's history there was a physical LGBT plus center for the community Dennis Neill: Speaking of that, Greg recalls, Greg Gatewood recalls when you first put the signage up and Greg mentioned that, he said: if we put that sign up, I know there's going to be a car wreck on Brookside by people eyeing that sign and he said that day we put it up, sure enough there was a fender bender right in front of the building because somebody was looking at the sign and not paying attention. So do you recall some of those early days of the center, some of the vandalism? Tom Neal: I know we had a little bit of vandalism. I don't remember a lot of details, I think maybe somebody broke the front door one time, Dennis Neill: The glass twice. Tom Neal: Was it twice? Maybe I'm a little bit of a Pollyanna. I try to see the positive. So I maybe, I just don't remember. I mainly remember the flag being stolen because I personally was up there on the roof putting it back up and buying another one and so forth. But just in general, the only other thing I can really remember distinctly is when there was an event for Chaz Bono. You know Cher's son these days. At the time I think she still identified as a woman and I remember taking pictures of Chaz and Nancy McDonald talking in that hallway, in that great hall or small great hall that we created. Dennis Neill: I think she was here, wasn't she for a fundraiser? I believe we had it at the downtown Doubletree. I can't remember if it was for TOHR or if it was for PFLAG. Tom Neal: Could have been either, could have been either. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dennis Neill: And were you involved with PFLAG through these years? Tom Neal: Certainly, when I was doing the newspaper, I was very supportive of PFLAG and I think I would assume that I probably donated advertising to them, certainly covered events that they had them. I seem to recall that they were often meeting at Fellowship Congregational there on Harvard and somewhere along the way became friends with the late Reverend Russell Bennett, great, great hero of mine, again kind of taking the stand back in the day when very few people were. I mean in those days, if you remember, again, before we started interviewing, we were talking about NCCJ [National Conference for Christians and Jews] and sometimes not always having support from parts of the community from whom you might have expected to get it, and I remember 22 �that Russell was out there very, very supportive, even at times when, for example, All Souls was not. They were just kind of ducking the issue, which is ironic because they were very welcoming of LGBT people as individuals, but they were not putting any of their credibility as a congregation on the line at the time, or at least that was my perception of things. Obviously not where they are today. You know so, but at that time, you know also, you know my parish Trinity was supportive of individuals, but not as out there. That whole denomination has made progress. Likewise, you know the Methodists and the Presbyterians. Dennis Neill: And was this about the time the Say No to Hate Coalition formed, or was that after your time? Do you think? Tom Neal: I think after. Again, I'm not the best person with dates. Dennis Neill: Yeah, I think it might have been after, because I know at one time I was fairly involved with it. But then Laura was very, very involved. I think she chaired it for a while. That was probably when she was president in 2004 - 2007, time frame. So talk a little bit about some of your highs and lows while you were so involved with TOHR in those early 90s. Tom Neal: I think I kind of feel like I've covered those. I mean, really. Dennis Neill: Were you having monthly meetings then? Y Tom Neal: Yeah, I think so. I think so. Dennis Neill: At that center? Tom Neal: I think so, I think so at the center, yeah. Not enormously attended, but I haven't seen enormous attendance of anything in the community since maybe the really early days at Aaronson, when it was literally almost the only game in town. So, other than I guess the bars that were all over the place. Certainly with the Internet, with people meeting each other electronically these days, I mean, there's what, maybe three bars left now, and I don't go to bars anyway. It was already a somewhat scattered community compared to maybe Dallas or Houston, where you had, a physical center to the places. And I think with the changes in media, it's even more scattered. Dennis Neill: So are you comfortable being called an activist? Tom Neal: Yeah, sure. I think it's a worthy title. I don't think these days I would make that claim anymore. I've stepped back, I’ve really focused on my, my work, my design practice. I don't remember if I mentioned to you, but I'm taking a class at TU, which I love being on campus. It's, they call it lifelong learning. It's not for credit. I call it classes for old people. It's really good because since I work out of my home and my work companions are a dog and three cats, it's nice to interact with like… Dennis Neill: What are you taking at TU? 23 �Tom Neal: I am taking Spanish. I'm just finishing my fourth semester there, motivated, prompted by a trip to Spain with one of my nephews. And I had been using Duolingo to try to learn some Spanish. And I came back from that trip feeling like I needed more formal instruction. And originally thought I'd try to take something at TCC. I had taught adjunct there for nine semesters, but they didn't have anything that wasn't online. And I wanted an in-person class. And then I live literally seven minutes by bicycle from TU. I'm like, I live across from a major university. Let me see what they have to offer. And I wound up, and it was very interesting as this long-haired senior citizen walking into a classroom full of mostly freshmen, 18- and 19-year-olds, whose eyes are getting big. It's like, who is this old guy in the class? And I'm looking like, God, they look like they're 14. It's been a really good experience. And my Spanish is progressing. Dennis Neill: Cool. So at TCC, what were you teaching? Tom Neal: I taught both art appreciation and humanities one. Dennis Neill: Did you feel welcome as an adjunct professor at TCC? Tom Neal: Yes, certainly. No issues because I was gay. Well, adjuncts are overworked and underappreciated, generally speaking. Every, probably every place in the nation, but it was a good experience. I stumbled into it. It was actually a random conversation I was having with another person, closer to my age, in the men's locker room, because I used to work for 10 years, maybe, well, maybe it's 20 years. Many years I worked out at the TCC Fitness Center because it was so close to Home Depot where I was working. And I had a conversation with a guy named Ralph saying, my undergrads in art history. I'd love to teach someday. And he said, hmm, my wife's in charge of making those assignments. I said, oh, well, tell her I would be interested. And a couple months later, I get a call at 4.45 PM on a Friday saying, we really, somebody's dropped out. And could you teach this class starting on Tuesday at 10 a.m.? Indeed, I can, but I had never seen the textbook. I hadn't seen a syllabus. I was cramming on Monday to start teaching on Tuesday, but I had a good time. The pay is crap, but I very much, and I wound up teaching initially, mostly an art appreciation class for a program they called Accelerate, where TCC took its concurrent enrollment classes out to public high schools. Students in Tulsa can take a class at TCC. Concurrent enrollment sometimes means they take it on campus. But in this case, particularly because not every student is mobile, we wound up…I wound up teaching at Tulsa Central, Hale, East Central, and then Webster and Edison. Those last two more than any other, repeated times. And it was great. I loved, I had the best and the brightest. For example, East Central is a pretty rough school. It looks like a prison, and it had high security when you walk in. But the kids I was working with were brilliant. And it was such a good experience. And then, again, Humanities I on campus was not bad. I liked that as well. That was at Metro Campus. It hasn't happened lately, but for a few years I would be randomly going around Tulsa, and somebody would say, hey, did you teach Humanities at TCC? I said, yeah. And mostly people said, I took your class. I loved your class. It made you feel really good. 24 �Dennis Neill: So, as an activist, what do you consider kind of your crown achievement? Would you say whether it's through the newspaper or your active involvement in organizations? What really gives you comfort about the view you took about being an activist in the community? Tom Neal: I think it's not any single thing, Dennis. I think it is a general pushing, expanding the envelope, pushing things forward, making it a little better than it was before. The process at OU that I worked on towards getting a nondiscrimination policy, we didn't get it, but somebody did after us. But I think the work that we did helped move us in that direction. Clearly, I think that the fact that we're sitting in this wonderful building today has its origins in the thinking that people like Nancy and Greg and... Dennis Neill: Okay. And you were talking a little bit about your activism and you feeling like it's not just one event, but you want to expand it a little bit more? Tom Neal: So, I think, I don't know whether we chopped this off or not, but I was saying that, here we are in this beautiful, wonderful building. And I think, again, back to the notion that maybe it's not any single thing that I accomplished, but being part of the process of moving us forward as a community, that, the origins of this building, to some degree, are in the building that Deborah and I signed the lease for over on Brookside. In the thinking, Nancy McDonald was very involved, Greg Gatewood…each of us working to the recognition that we need a physical place to anchor the community, particularly in a community that is kind of scattered, to all parts of the city. And I think I helped advance that. I think, maybe like before we started the interview, we were talking about our interaction with the Jewish community and maybe, helping people there to be more aware of, sometimes the intersection between LGBT issues and Jewish issues, particularly in terms of our shared history around, living through the Nazi regime. not identical experiences, obviously, but some overlap there. Part of that process…I know you can relate to this, one step forward and two steps back, or maybe it's two steps forward and one step back. When you and I first met, there were really hopes that the city of Tulsa was then, in 1980-something, going to add a non-discrimination policy. And I think you guys are really close. There was a little bit of a backlash, you know? Dennis Neill: But do you feel like there's been some backsliding over these recent years? And what would you attribute that to? And what would you tell the current generations? How can we move forward? But I'm assuming you might feel like we're backsliding in progress. What are your thoughts? Tom Neal: Well, yeah, I don't think we can take anything for granted. And I think again, as a student of history, if you look at Weimar, Germany, it was a good place for queer people in the 1920s, and then only to be followed by... I think, again, part of that shared experience or similar experience of the Jewish communities around the world and of LGBT communities is this kind of, we're always looking over our shoulders because, particularly with the current administration, could things turn south, could things go bad really quickly. I think I live with that as a little bit of a fear. I just read that the Texas 25 �Tech University system has now basically banned- it's destroyed- the women's studies, the LGBT studies, sexuality studies. You can't even write or talk about these issues. I have family who are alums, and so I put on my Facebook like, hmm, reposted, shared the story but then said: maybe we should call this fascist Tech, not Texas Tech, though Texas and fascism may be pretty good overlap these days. So, yes, are we backsliding? I think our fears are worse than the actuality. But could we backslide? I think that's real. What would I say to young people? Don't blow off your seniors completely. Some of us have some experience. You don't have to freaking, reinvent everything every time or assume that everybody who's you know older than you is an idiot and doesn't know anything, because sometimes that's how it feels. I was a little perturbed because recently this organization had a weekend seminar for rural organizing, I think, and I looked over it and it was kind of almost pro forma, by the book inclusive. We had one of these and one of these and one of these I mean in terms of racial and ethnic diversity and so forth, except for there was not a single old person in the mix. They were all Morgan's age and younger and I'm kind of like some of us might have something to contribute. Some of us have done some of this before, and I think you know again, maybe kind of one of my pet peeves- and we see it a fair amount in the, in the gay part of the LGBT community, is ageism. You know just, and- and I've been a little outspoken, calling people I say, that's kind of, that's kind of …So I think that would be kind of my, maybe the message, the answer to the question is: you know that inclusiveness is not just about, race and ethnicity or gender. You know that that many people have something to contribute. I don't know, probably if I keep talking, I'm going to say the same thing over in three different ways. Dennis Neill: Anything we haven't covered over your life to date and your reflections on what's been accomplished and what needs to be accomplished or any other comments you want to make. Tom Neal: Oh well, thank you for doing this, it's fun. It's kind of makes me remember some things that I hadn't really thought about for a while. You know I'm usually focused on work deadlines and Spanish exams and walking my dog. I'm planning my next trip because I really enjoy traveling. Dennis Neill: Where's that? Tom Neal: Next trips? This summer's trips, I think I'm going to go to Little Rock just for a long weekend, just because I've never really spent any time there. And there's the Clinton Library. Their art museum has been recently revamped, and I like to visit Episcopal Parishes when I travel, and this is going to sound so church nerdy, but they have Christ Church and the Cathedral, two different congregations within blocks of each other, and I can actually go to one service at 8 or 8:30, and the other one at 10:30, which is a lot of church. Dennis Neill: Both Episcopalian? 26 �Tom Neal: One's the Cathedral, one's just, I guess, the local church, but they're both historic because Little Rock, Arkansas is older than we are as a state. I'll probably go see my brother and go to the beach with my nephew that I traveled with in North Carolina. I'm kind of avoiding overseas travel because of you know all the unrest right now. But my nephew, with whom I travel a fair amount, he said, I want to get one last trip in August before, hopefully, I take a class at TU in the fall. And he said: well, what about Mexico City? I'm like I've been really wanting to go to Mexico City because I've never been, fits in with studying Spanish, amazing art and museums and history, and I like to mountain bike, and I even think there's mountain biking close to the city. So hopefully that'll be, that'll be that, and then next winter go skiing because that's my other thing. Dennis Neill: Tom, I really appreciate your time, your dedication to the community and everything that you've done for this organization and for the great history you've left us with the Tulsa Family News. Thank you very much. Tom Neal: Thank you, Dennis. 27 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Tom Neal Interview Subject The topic of the resource Tom Neal Oral History Project Interview from April 30, 2026 Description An account of the resource In this in-depth interview, Tom Neal shares his life journey, from growing up in Oklahoma to becoming a community activist and publisher. He discusses his experiences with LGBTQ+ advocacy, the evolution of Tulsa's community spaces, and his reflections on social progress and challenges. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tom Neal, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 30, 2026 activism AIDS/HIV Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill Dennis R. Neill Equality Center Equality Center Gay Rights HIV/AIDs interview journalism Nancy and Joe McDonald Rainbow Library Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library OkEq Equality Center OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Rainbow Library Tom Neal transcript Tulsa Family News video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/dea5687994523c956c6878299c4cdbdd.pdf 1cd60c6a28dd7281d0d3dd2aa563452c PDF Text Text Tulsa is home to America’s reigning ‘president of drag’ 1 of 7 https://tulsaflyer.org/2026/06/23/culture/post/president-of-drag/ CULTURE How a Tulsa TV anchor-turned-theater director became America’s reigning ‘president of drag’ by Haley Samsel June 23, 2026 Travis Guillory in his midtown Tulsa home drag room surrounded by his collection of gowns and other items for his works as Tracy La Louisianne. Tim Landes Have aCredit: question or a/ Tulsa tip? Flyer Text us. 7/9/2026, 3:48 PM �Tulsa is home to America’s reigning ‘president of drag’ 2 of 7 https://tulsaflyer.org/2026/06/23/culture/post/president-of-drag/ The country’s reigning Miss Gay America — a title she sometimes playfully refers to as “the president of drag” — doesn’t live in a Los Angeles mansion or a New York City walkup. She calls midtown Tulsa home. Travis Guillory is the last person to predict he would be standing among the dozens of shimmering costumes, wigs and crowns required to transform into Tracy La Louisianne, who he describes as “Travis on steroids.” A former local TV anchor and current executive director of Theatre Tulsa, Guillory’s drag career began less than four years ago. Now he’s fielding requests from America’s Got Talent producers who watched Tracy earn the national title in January. “I’m not kidding when I say my life literally changed overnight,” Guillory said. Have a question or a tip? Text us. 7/9/2026, 3:48 PM �Tulsa is home to America’s reigning ‘president of drag’ 3 of 7 https://tulsaflyer.org/2026/06/23/culture/post/president-of-drag/ Tracy La Louisianne was crowned Miss Gay America 2026 in January. Credit: Courtesy Tracy La Louisianne / Miss Gay America ‘Proved every single one of us wrong’ Guillory’s journey to winning the country’s longest-running and largest drag pageant wasn’t linear. Originally from southern Louisiana, he moved to Tulsa in 2017 to work for 2 News Oklahoma. The longtime performer and director quickly became involved in the local theater scene. That’s where Tracy was born. Guillory was cast as seasoned drag queen Miss Tracy Mills in World Stage Theatre Company’s 2021 production of “The Legend of Georgia McBride.” The role required him to take a “crash course” on drag performance and culture. The University of Tulsa’s HallowQueens show came calling soon after. First, though, Guillory needed a name. “I looked up Louisiana cocktails and I found ‘La Louisianne,’ which is basically a New Orleans version of a Manhattan, my favorite drink,” he said. “It just stuck.” Alongside a career shift to public relations, Guillory began performing one-woman cabarets with Oklahomans for Equality and expanding Tracy’s repertoire. Her persona is inspired by the largerthan-life female leads Guillory grew up watching in Broadway musicals. Think Mrs. Lovett from “Sweeney Todd” or Miss Hannigan from “Annie.” “I get to be what my younger self always wanted to be,” Guillory said. The act caught the attention of the then-reigning Miss Gay Oklahoma, who encouraged Guillory to condense the cabaret into a six-minute routine and enter a pageant. The contest follows a similar format to the Miss America competition, featuring an on-stage Q&A, judges interview, evening gown and talent showcase. Travis Guillory in his home drag room in his midtown Tulsa home. Have a question or a tip? Text us. Over time he began to see each element of the Credit: Tim Landes / Tulsa Flyer 7/9/2026, 3:48 PM �Tulsa is home to America’s reigning ‘president of drag’ 4 of 7 https://tulsaflyer.org/2026/06/23/culture/post/president-of-drag/ score as a chance to do what he does best: communicate, think on his feet and embody Tracy’s theatrical personality. “You don’t have to fit the mold. You have to be the mold,” Guillory said. “It’s not like you’re trying to show up with what people expect Miss Gay America to be and look like. You show up the way you do your art at a very high level, and that’s Miss Gay America that year.” When he met Guillory in Tracy’s early days, Tulsan Ryan Bennett was already an established drag artist performing as Natalia Masters. Guillory was always talented, Bennett said, but a bit hesitant to lean “into his shtick” as a ball of energy on and off the stage. That’s no longer the case. “The one thing that I have seen him grow in is actually just his self confidence as an entertainer,” said Bennett, now one of Guillory’s best friends and collaborators. “There were so many people that told him that the direction that he was going wouldn’t get him very far, and he just proved every single one of us wrong in the best way possible.” The weight of the crown By the time she headed to Little Rock for the national competition in January, Tracy had already racked up honors like Miss Gay Oklahoma and Miss Gay Gulf Coast. In the days prior, Theatre Tulsa company director Mandy Gross and Guillory began discussing what it would look like if Guillory returned with the title. “I think Tracy knew that she was going to win, but Travis didn’t think that he was going to win,” Gross said. Many peers are in the pageant system for years before reaching the big stage. But Tracy pulled out all the stops — walking the stage in a gator costume holding a detached head and earning audience roars during her cabaret, which forced judges to pick their own adventure — and stole the show in her second national competition. Have a question or a tip? Text us. 7/9/2026, 3:48 PM �Tulsa is home to America’s reigning ‘president of drag’ 5 of 7 https://tulsaflyer.org/2026/06/23/culture/post/president-of-drag/ Part of Tracy’s pitch was her ability to build a brand and lead the Miss Gay America organization through an ownership transition and moving its national competition to Atlanta. “I can put on a nice gown and a nice wig and do all of these things. I can figure out the aesthetic,” Guillory said. “But it’s more of what’s in somebody’s heart and what’s in somebody’s brain that actually makes them a successful Miss Gay America.” The crown can weigh heavily on the head that wears it. Bennett describes the duties as “grueling,” requiring weeks of travel to lead contestant orientations and judge briefings at competitions across the country in addition to performing and promoting gigs. Many winners quit their day jobs to complete their reigns. Not Guillory. He and Gross have worked together to ensure he can still give his energy to Theatre Tulsa, which he took over in summer 2024, and keep shows running smoothly. “You know how people are left-brained or right-brained? He’s got both,” Gross said. “He is really great at the creative stuff, and really great at scheduling and being organized and the stuff that super creative people usually aren’t. I don’t know where he gets that from, and I don’t know where he gets all the energy to do it.” Bennett has watched Guillory weather the highs and lows that come with pursuing a burgeoning drag career and keeping up with responsibilities at home. He has a community of supporters, including his partner and fellow drag performer Kallaya, who understand the pressure. Have a question or a tip? Text us. It also comes down to feeling the emotions in the moment and not letting them overtake you, Bennett said. When Guillory needs to cry or scream, he lets it out. 7/9/2026, 3:48 PM �Tulsa is home to America’s reigning ‘president of drag’ 6 of 7 https://tulsaflyer.org/2026/06/23/culture/post/president-of-drag/ “He’s a superstar in that,” Bennett said. “He knows when it is appropriate to let loose and be vulnerable, and he knows when it’s time to put your big girl panties on and be professional, be the administrator and do the job of being Miss Gay America.” Have a question or a tip? Text us. 7/9/2026, 3:48 PM �Tulsa is home to America’s reigning ‘president of drag’ 7 of 7 https://tulsaflyer.org/2026/06/23/culture/post/president-of-drag/ ‘We just want to exist’ Five months after returning from Little Rock, Guillory is still navigating his new reality. He’s embracing the flood of new opportunities — potential residency in Puerto Vallarta, anyone? — while still appreciating what Tulsa has to offer as an affordable home base for regular gigs in Arkansas and Missouri. He’s passionate about growing the city’s arts scene and says he’s never had a reason to leave. “I’ve lived three lifetimes in Tulsa and I’m on my fourth one now,” Guillory said. He’s not sure where life will take him by the time his reign ends in January. For now, he’s focused on a full calendar of gigs and the mission in front of him: representing Oklahoma on the national stage and serving as a beacon of hope for those feeling targeted by anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric. “We just want to exist,” Guillory said. “When people see Miss Gay America, they need to see somebody who’s just existing to the f–king fullest.” News decisions at the Tulsa Flyer are made independently of our board members and financial supporters. Read more about our editorial independence policy here. Have a question or a tip? Text us. 7/9/2026, 3:48 PM � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Collection] Oklahoma LGBT+ History Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br /><br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Travis Guillory Tulsa Flyer Article Subject The topic of the resource How a Tulsa TV anchor-turned-theater director became America’s reigning ‘president of drag’ Description An account of the resource 1 article written by Haley Samsel from Tulsa Flyer regarding Travis Guillory's winning of the Miss Gay America title as Tracy La Louisianne. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Haley Samsel Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived https://tulsaflyer.org/2026/06/23/culture/post/president-of-drag/ Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Tulsa Flyer Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 23, 2026 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/e0d9822a3b0c3fe642a7bd1370cfd359.mp4 23c5fb4ac876f8aa1f3cd6c4f2150900 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/bf801acb870eabb3456af5bad0e8a015.pdf 60b339d8fd9b78d08a569347020151b2 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality About the NAMES Project AIDS Memorial Quilt with Val Bode and Doug Hartson Interview Conducted by Dennis Neill and Toby Jenkins Date: February 12, 2026 Edited By: Dennis Neill using Riverside Studio AI, March 28th, 2026 Restrictions: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About the Names Project: The NAMES Project AIDS Memorial Quilt, conceived in 1985 by activist Cleve Jones in San Francisco, is a massive community art project honoring those lost to the HIV/AIDS epidemic. Officially founded in 1987, it features over 50,000 handmade panels, serving as a powerful memorial and educational tool against stigma. Key Historical Moments:  1985 Concept: During a candlelight march for Harvey Milk, Cleve Jones learned over 1,000 San Franciscans had died of AIDS. He had marchers write names on placards and tape them to the Federal Building, creating a patchwork look.  1987 Formation: The NAMES Project Foundation was established to create a lasting, traveling memorial, as many victims had no funerals.  1987 Debut: The Quilt was first displayed on the National Mall in Washington, D.C., during the National March on Washington for Lesbian and Gay Rights, featuring 1,920 panels.  1988 Tour: A 20-city national tour added thousands of new panels, highlighting the nationwide impact of the epidemic.  Growth and Legacy: By 2012, it was too large to be displayed in one place, with over 48,000 panels.  2019 Homecoming: The Quilt was moved from Atlanta back to San Francisco to be managed by the National AIDS Memorial, ensuring its preservation. The Quilt has served as a critical tool in fighting the stigma, ignorance, and bigotry surrounding the AIDS epidemic. Tulsa Involvement: With the leadership of Jack Francis, Val Bode, Doug Hartson and other volunteers, portions of the Names Project Quilts were displayed on four occasions. For their excellent organization and community outreach, the National Names Project awarded the Tulsa Names Project the Chapter of the Year in 1995. The Dennis R. Neill Equality Center was one of the few centers in the country to be designated as a permanent location for portions of the Quilt. However, in 2018, the Names Project requested all panels be returned to San Francisco. Hundreds of people came to the Equality Center for a final farewell. Tulsa was able to make large silk screen copies of the panels for permanent display in the Center before the Quilts were returned. 2 �Ginnie Graham with the Tulsa World wrote an article on November 28, 2018 about the farewell. Below is an extract from the article: In 1990, about 800 of the panels came to the Maxwell Convention Center, where at least 50 new ones were added. “This is not a screaming protest. It is a beautiful, gentle way to show the enormity of the problem,” Tulsa display chairman Jack Francis told the Tulsa World. In 1993, the AIDS Quilt returned with about 1,000 panels, and about 60 more from northeastern Oklahoma were added. Those included a tranquil scene of flowers with a yellow sun for Zac Sweeney, who died at age 29; a theatrical mask and ballet shoes against a fuchsia background covered in sequins for 31-year-old Chris Monnet, who choreographed two Miss Oklahoma pageants; and a bouquet of balloons made of felt for David Wayne Robinson. In 1995, the Tulsa Fairgrounds Pavilion hosted enough panels to fill the lengths of two football fields. Among new Quilt panels was one for 32-year-old Wesley Townsley. A gold hook in a picture of a large fishing rod was made of a purse chain from his grandmother, who died six months before he did. ____________________________________________________ 3 �On February 12, 2026, Dennis Neill and Toby Jenkins interviewed Val Bode and Doug Hartson about their involvement with the Names Project AIDS Memorial Quilt. The interview took place in the Nancy and Joe McDonald Library located in the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Keywords NAMES Project, AIDS Memorial Quilt, Tulsa community, Doug Hartson, Val Bode, personal stories, community support, fundraising, legacy, healing Summary This conversation explores the profound impact of the NAMES Project and the AIDS Memorial Quilt on the Tulsa community, featuring personal stories from Doug Hartson and Val Bode. They share their experiences of loss, healing, and community support while discussing the importance of remembrance and advocacy in the face of the AIDS epidemic. The dialogue highlights the Quilt's role in changing perceptions, fostering understanding, and providing a therapeutic outlet for those affected by the disease. The speakers also reflect on the challenges faced in promoting the project and the legacy it leaves for future generations. Takeaways  Doug Hartson became involved with the NAMES Project to connect with the community.  Val Bode's brother's illness with AIDS motivated her to create a Quilt panel.  The Quilt serves as a therapeutic outlet for remembering lost friends.  Community support was crucial for the success of the NAMES Project in Tulsa.  The Quilt changed people's perspectives on AIDS and its victims.  Personal stories shared through the Quilt fostered healing and understanding.  Fundraising events like 'Feast with Friends' were vital for sustaining the project.  The NAMES Project had a significant national impact, culminating in displays on the National Mall.  Challenges included societal stigma and resistance to discussing AIDS openly.  The legacy of the NAMES Project continues through education and remembrance efforts. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to the NAMES Project and Personal Stories 02:52 Doug Hartson's Journey with the NAMES Project 4 �05:59 Val Bode's Personal Connection to the Quilt 09:02 The Impact of the Quilt on the Community 12:14 Family Stories and Healing Through the Quilt 15:02 Remembering Friends Lost to AIDS 17:58 The Role of Community in the NAMES Project 20:55 Fundraising and Community Engagement 24:05 The Importance of Local Support 26:54 The Final Display of the Quilt in 1996 30:14 Reflections on the NAMES Project's Legacy 39:59 The Emotional Impact of the Quilt 42:31 Community Support and Resistance 45:35 Fundraising and Financial Support 50:51 Counseling and Emotional Support 52:13 Personal Stories and Connections 53:59 Panel Submission and Documentation 57:46 Jack's Legacy and Personal Connections 01:06:01 The Quilt as a Tool for Advocacy 01:12:03 Medical Advances and Their Impact 01:15:20 Preserving the Legacy of the Quilt Dennis Neill: My name is Dennis Neill, and we also have present Amanda Thompson, the archivist, and Toby Jenkins, and we'll have the opportunity to interview Doug Hartson and Val Bode. And the purpose of this interview, on February, the 12th, 2026, in the Nancy and Joe McDonald Library at the Equality Center, is to review the history of the NAMES Project as it impacted the Tulsa community and the great involvement of both Doug and Val in the Tulsa chapter, as well as their work with the national organization. Doug, would you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about your first engagement, one with the organization of OHR and TOHR and then the NAMES Project? Doug Hartson: Well, I'm Doug Hartson and I got involved, gosh, near the very, very beginning, when we were meeting in homes, and then we finally moved our monthly meetings to the Aronson auditorium in the downtown library, Central Library, and I basically became involved because I wasn't necessarily the little barfly that went out 5 �every night or every weekend, so I wanted more of a communal contact with others and wanted to really get involved in the community and helping in any way I could to have another outlet in lieu of going to some of the clubs. And gosh, that was in 80,, what was that? 80?, 81?, anyway. So and then, having done that for quite a while and unfortunately starting to lose friends to AIDS, I got in touch, I guess, with Val or with the organization and became very involved in the NAMES Project AIDS Memorial Quilt chapter here and was involved in several displays in Tulsa and then the March in Washington in 93, and then also the final full display in DC in 1996, October of 96. I made quite a few panels for friends that I had lost and just felt the need to let them not be forgotten, and it was also therapeutic and healing to do a Quilt and remember special little things that you put on the Quilt that reminded you of them and our friendship. Dennis Neill: Thank you, Doug. Val, could you kind of introduce your work initially with the NAMES Project and how long that carried on for you? Val Bode: I'm Val Bode and I first became involved with the Quilt when my brother was ill with AIDS. It was very early in the epidemic in 1988, and we had moved him from Houston back to my parents' home in Broken Arrow so the family could care for him and one day we received a phone call. We had many phone calls from friends of his in Houston checking on him, but we received a phone call from a friend, and I answered the phone and visited with the friend who said to me I plan to make a Quilt panel for Kenny when he's gone. And I said I'm not sure I know what that is. And he described the NAMES Project Quilt to me and that stayed with me in the following weeks and after my brother died I wanted to know more about it. And this was back in the days before we had the internet and all of our information at our fingertips. And, as luck would have it, there appeared in the newspaper, the Tulsa World, an article about the NAMES project Quilt coming to Oklahoma City and there was a phone number to call for information. I called the number and received this man with a deep, deep, resonant voice who explained to me all about the Quilt and its visit to Oklahoma City. And by the time I finished the phone call I had volunteered to help with the display and my sister and I both volunteered at that display in Oklahoma City. And that was in early- I think it was early 89, and Kenny had been gone less than a year. And we went to see the Quilt and, sure enough, the panel that his friend in Houston had made was within the sections that were on display, and while it was beautiful, I felt a great sadness because I hadn't taken part in making it, but by the end of the day, I learned that many people had more than one panel and that it was perfectly fine for myself and or my family to make a panel for him, and so we- my sister and my parents- left that day planning to do so and we made his panel. We spelled out his name in Legos. I don't know if that shows very well Dennis, but he was somewhat of a Lego maniac and that was one of the things that he enjoyed in his last months was drawing a building on paper and then reproducing it in Legos, and so we felt like we had to include the Legos, and I was, I was telling earlier about my dad's reluctance to participate in making the Quilt. He thought that was something that mom and the girls should do, and when we talked about the Legos, we were 6 �trying to figure out how to get them on the fabric in a way that they would stay, and we were at my parents’ house. My dad was watching a baseball game, and I took some Legos to him and I said: ”Daddy, we want to spell out Kenny's name in Legos, but we have to sew them on the Quilt. Can you make holes in these so we can sew them on like buttons?”. And he said, “Well, let me see what I can do”. And he took them into the garage. My dad took them into the garage and he came back and each Lego had eight holes around the side and from that moment on he was totally involved with the making of the panel. We sent the panel to Washington, to actually to San Francisco, where the Quilt was at home at the time, and from that day on I was involved with the Quilt. Jack Francis was determined that we have a chapter in Tulsa and so he and I really went forward with that plan and tried to get a chapter in Tulsa, which we did successfully, I think in 90, about 90, and it took a lot of hard work but we did it and we subsequently had, I believe, four major displays in Tulsa, countless small displays, outreach efforts in Tulsa and the surrounding area. Many, many of our panels went to rural areas and I have felt over these years what important work that we did with the Quilt. We saw people who became humbled and changed when they visited the Quilt. We showed the Quilt either in the Maxwell Convention Center, the Pavilion at the fairgrounds… Doug Hartson: I displayed it at Boston Avenue United Methodist Church and other churches through other organizations. It got out there and it did change people's perspective; that it wasn't just a quote-unquote gay disease, that somebody knew someone, that six degrees of separation that had died from AIDS as the pandemic grew, unfortunately, and we lost more friends. But it was also important to get the Quilt out so people understood what it meant and the information behind it and that we just never would forget our friends. Dennis Neill: Speaking of friends and family, Val, could you explain a little bit more about your brother, and I believe his last name was Valentine. Val Bode: Correct. Dennis Neill: Could you share a little bit more about your brother? Val Bode: Kenny Valentine was a forever student. He was, he was eager to learn and he was a student at Oklahoma State for many number of years and I, in recollection, I don't think he ever actually got a degree, but he was interested in so many things: languages, foreign languages. He learned Biblical Hebrew, he learned Russian, he learned German, French. He just had a zeal for learning things. And he had an innate talent drawing and creating things out of Legos. I have in my bedroom a picture that was drawn on a piece of typing paper with a pencil when my daughter, who is now 60, was a little bit of a girl, probably five years old, went to Uncle Kenny and said, Uncle Kenny, will you draw me a lighthouse? And he drew this lovely picture of a lighthouse and the rocky shore and the turbulent water coming in. And I've tried to preserve that. We have a lot of memories of him. He had a great sense of humor and was reluctant to move to Tulsa when he was ill, but he needed help and we pretty much insisted that he come to Tulsa. My parents were alive at the time and in good health. So I remember saying to him, Kenny, I 7 �think you should live with me. And he said, no, that's not a good idea because I'm going to get worse and you're going to have to still go to work and at least Mom and Dad are at home. And I said to him, but you know what's going to happen. Mom's going to think if she feeds you enough homemade soup, you're going to get well. Enough chicken noodle soup and keeps you out of drafts. And he said, yeah, I know, but I'll deal with it. And so we brought him to Tulsa, to my parents' home, and my sister and I were there as much as we could. And he actually died in a hospital. And that was tough. I was with him and I didn't have any experience with death. I didn't know what I know now. Having had both my parents die at home with hospice, I wish I had had that experience with him. But at least I was there. Val Bode in front of the panel her family made following her brother’s death from AIDS. Dennis Neill: Did you have any support like Shanti or any of the other organizations? Val Bode: We really didn't. My parents were pretty closed in about the AIDS issue, as was not unusual, especially for that generation at that time. And so we pretty much did it on our own with some help from their minister and family friends. And we had people dropping in, bringing food, as they do, and being supportive. It was a very, very difficult time for all of us. We knew so little about AIDS that I had very young grandchildren at the time, whom my brother just adored. And I was frightened for them to be with him in a closed situation. Because we didn't know. We didn't know. But I do remember, it was 8 �Christmas time, and my granddaughter, Christina, who was, I think, three at the time, helped decorate the tree. And Kenny wanted to use some of his ornaments that he had. And one of the things he had were strands of pearls, and feet and feet and feet of them. And so they got all those out, and she helped. And we got those all on the tree. And she came to me and she said, “Nan, look, Uncle Kenny got necklaces on his tree”. And so we had good times with him, too. My dad always took photographs with a 35mm camera and had countless number of slides. Yeah, your folks do, right? And so a couple of times we got out the screen and the projector and showed different family vacations and celebrations and so on. There was a picture one year of me and Kenny, and it must have been Easter because we were both dressed to the nines. And he said, “well, that must have been a good year. Those look like store-bought clothes”. So his sense of humor was still there till the very end. We treasure the time that we were able to spend with him. Dennis Neill: Val, you're sharing is so important because it really brings the personal aspect of your family, the impact on your family, and then your motivation to be with the NAMES Project. And so, Doug, is there somebody that you were really close to that really impacted you that's a part of the NAMES Project? Doug Hartson: There were several friends, but John Thomeyer, he was on the TOHR board with me for several years. And unfortunately, he passed away on Christmas, alone. Dennis Neill: You know what year? Doug Hartson: Ninety, I'll have to go back and look at his panel because John Gartland and I… Dennis Neill: You said he was alone, he died at home alone? Doug Harston: From my understanding, his mom, he was supposed to go over to his mom's for the day, for the holiday. And when he didn't show, she went over and found him. And so that was my first panel. And just the camaraderie stemming from TOHR and being on the board and being amongst friends and being able to be yourself and then having to deal with this, which was a totally different aspect than what any of us expected. And we didn't know a lot about it. Val Bode: No, we didn't. Doug Hartson: Which made it even more challenging. There were several, I don't want to go over the long list, but I just felt the need to get involved because it was a way of keeping them remembered. And again, it was therapy for me to do it. Dennis Neill: And as I recall, Doug, on John's panel, it was John on a stage in the spotlight. As I recall, do you know? Doug Hartson: The Empty Stage, yeah. We entitled it The Empty Stage because he was very involved in theater here in Tulsa. And we did the TOHR Follies every year. I was in it a couple of times. But anyway, John was always in it. And so we just felt 9 �that that was very apropos since he was so active in the community in that regard. In fact, his name was Heidi Ho. Here comes Heidi Ho. Toby Jenkins: For our viewers, I want to make sure they understand. Val, how old was your brother Kenny when he died? Val Bode: He was 37. Toby Jenkins: So a young man. Val Bode: A young man. Toby Jenkins: Doug, do you remember the ages of these folks? Doug Hartson: They were all in their mid-30s. Toby Jenkins: Thank you. Val Bode: Very, very early and way too young to be lost. I will share with you the impact that making Kenny's Panel had on my family. My parents were very reluctant to talk about AIDS, to even admit that their son had died of AIDS. And I understood that. That was typical of that generation in those times. And when we were making the Panel, as I mentioned, prior to Kenny's death, there was involvement from my parents' minister at the church they attended in Sapulpa. And he knew that we were involved, that we were making this Quilt Panel, and was quite interested to learn more about it. And he approached my sister and asked her if we would share the Quilt Panel with the congregation when it was complete. And my parents said no, they did not want to do that. And so my sister Jayne and I understood, and we said, okay, that's all right. But as time got close to the completion of the Panel, they seemed to change their minds. My mother came to me and she said, “if you took the Panel to church and you spoke, would you tell people that babies die of this disease too?” And I said, yes, of course I will. And so they agreed for us to do this. And so we had the Quilt Panel after it was completed on a table at the back of the congregation and at the back of the sanctuary. And my sister and I both spoke. We told about Kenny's illness. We told about the family's involvement. We spoke about the NAMES Project and about the making of the Panel. The plan was, at the benediction, for the family to go to the back and be at the table where the Quilt was, which we did. And as soon as the amens were said, people came to my parents and surrounded them with love and acceptance and acknowledgement and comfort. And I, today, feel like that changed them forever. It told them that this was not a death to be fearful of, that it was acknowledged how much we loved Kenny and how much we wanted to remember him and speak his name. And I think that that activity, that whole arrangement, brought them, all of us, more healing than we could have gotten any other way, any other way. And from that day on, they were involved with our displays that we had after we formed a chapter, our local displays, and they always volunteered, dressed in all whites, and did whatever 10 �we needed them to do. So that became an incredible healing tool for us, and we saw it again with so many people as we worked with the Quilt. Dennis Neill: So Val, when you talk about in all white, is this an example of what you all wore? Val Bode: Well, this was not official. Doug Hartson: Pretty close, though. Val Bode: Well, we all wore mini buttons that we collected over the years at different NAMES Project displays. I found this vest, gosh, this was before Amazon, I found it somewhere in a store and had it imprinted with Tulsa area chapter and just put my buttons on it and wore it over. Everybody wore white. The volunteers at the Quilt were requested to wear all white, and that included NAMES Project t-shirts, or just plain white. And that was so that we could be readily, oh, thank you, Doug, thank you, Doug, that was so that we could be readily identifiable to visitors. Dennis Neill: So was that part of the national program? Val Bode: That was. That was the national NAMES Project organization in organizing local displays and regional exhibitions. That was one of the requests that they made, was to see that all volunteers knew they should wear all white, if at all possible. And so it was a good way for us to stand out, to be ready to answer questions. Toby Jenkins: So I noticed on the vest that you had the buttons. So you would have bought those in advance, and I suppose there was a fee for you to purchase the button, and then did that fund that chapter's project? Val Bode: Absolutely, yes, funded either the chapter's project or the national organization. And so all the merchandise sales, which there was a lot of merchandise available, you know, t-shirts, sweatshirts, buttons, bracelets, all kinds of things. And so all of that income from that merchandise went to either local organizations or the national NAMES Project. Dennis Neill: That's very helpful. So let's spend a little more time talking about the local community and the support for the NAMES Project, and then we'd like to visit a little bit about your national involvement and your ideas about the national involvement. So when I think about the NAMES Project in Tulsa, I think of the two of you plus Jack Francis. I imagine there were others that were involved, but can you... Doug Hartson: It's just Jack. Dennis Neill: Can you describe a little bit about Jack's role, why he got involved, was he the main cheerleader for a while? Doug Hartson: He definitely was, but Val's going to be better at talking about Jack than I am. Val Bode: Jack and I spoke together after the Oklahoma City display and were determined that we would start a chapter in Tulsa. And that was an arduous process. We had a lot of work ahead of us, but we had great support. 11 �We were very involved with other organizations here in town- TOHR, Shanti- Help Me Doug, RAIN- many other organizations- and not only support for forming our chapter and putting on these displays, but also becoming involved as volunteers at displays. I mean, every single AIDS HIV organization in town fed volunteers to us because it took a lot of people to put on a major display, as we did four times, and so we had hundreds of volunteers literally. I mean, you had to unload the Quilt from the truck at the beginning and then you had to unpack everything, organize it the way it had to be organized in order for the list of names to match with the panels, and it was a big undertaking. It also cost a lot of money, and we were able to raise enough money through our Feast With Friends, which was our major fundraiser Feast With Friends, October 2000. Oh, my goodness, 26 years ago, Feast With Friends was a great time. Dennis Neill: Was that a local concept or was that a national concept? Val Bode: That was a local concept that we- oh, it was a, I think it was a group effort. We just got together as a board, including Jack and Doug and a number of other people, and we just came up with names. Doug Hartson: It was always and it still is, and it's from any organization that they do benefit dinner and auction. You do the dinner and then you have items live and silent auction, and we wanted to do something a little different, I think. We did the dinner part, but it wasn't in some hotel ballroom. That was the dessert finale and the awards, the presentations, but we encouraged friends to do dinner parties and pick a theme, and that turned out to be a lot of fun because there were some really cute, if you will, themes that came up. One of the ones that I hosted was called “Meals on Heels” and it was a hit. Val Bode: It was a hit, great fun. Doug Hartson: We raised the most money, I must say. I'm proud of that. So yeah, but no, it was a hoot. We did a… I had a roast pig. We did a big pig with the apple in its mouth in my backyard and everybody was to wear heels and coming through the gate we had a big, giant red pump and it turned out to be quite the talk of the town and I remember Rob Hill, who was blind, came with the ends of a loaf of bread taped to... heels. So yeah, so he won the most original at our party. But anyway, no, it was that. And then, oh gosh, I'm trying to think of some of the other names of the parties. Val Bode: Well, that same year- was it Betty and Peggy, or no, it was Kay and Maryhad a party “Women in Comfortable Shoes”. But the way it worked was individuals would host parties in their home in exchange for a donation to the Names Project and so, and it could be anything from hot dogs and beer to a five-course sit-down dinner, and then we all gathered at a location that we had obtained to eat dessert, and the desserts were all donated. We had teams of people who spent the day acquiring, picking up donations, and that was great fun too, because there were a couple of incidents where, you know, cobbler got spilled in the back of someone's truck or whatever. But it was a lot of fun and it was very successful. And the Names Project nationally recognized that when they awarded us Chapter of the Year in 95, that they, I believe, expressed that we 12 �created a very original and successful fundraiser which was part of the reason we won that award. Dennis Neill: You know, that brings up such an interesting thought in that the Names Project, being a national organization, brought down to the local community. It impacts so many aspects, right the grieving process, the messaging process but you also have to have a camaraderie to raise the funds that you're talking about and it can be a fun event even though we're recognizing something that's extremely serious. So talk about the emotion between grieving, messaging, having a community that supports it. It all kind of has to work together, doesn't it? Val Bode: It does. Doug Hartson: Yeah. Val Bode: And it absolutely did. Doug Hartson: It did. And again, knowledge is power and I think a lot of people became interested and were wanting to know more about the Quilt because whether they knew someone who had died from AIDS or not, it's a way for them to realize that we are all in this together and everyone is affected one way or another. And when we did the Feast with Friends dinner parties and then we had the dessert and then we actually showed the Quilt four times here, more and more people came out and again I think they appreciated the fact that it was a healing process for everyone, not just those of us who had made a Quilt, but for those in the community who wanted to know more about it and then have a deeper understanding of what it really was meant for. Dennis Neill: Did you ever know anybody that actually helped create their own Quilt? Val Bode: You know, I had heard of some people who had done that through connections with people from the national organization. I did not know anyone personally who did that. Doug Hartson: I didn't either, personally, but no. And I think it would probably be very therapeutic for them, knowing, because then they get to put their own, obviously, very personal spin on it, on the things that they wanted to be remembered by. Like Kenny with his Legos. Val Bode: Yeah, you know, that was important that we include those. Doug Hartson: So, but the national, the final display of the entire Quilt in 96, we were the central region and that was a tremendous undertaking and a lot of work, but so worth it, because that was the first year that the president acknowledged the Quilt. They actually came down and toured the Quilt. Toby Jenkins: And what year was that and who was the president, the sitting president? Doug Hartson: That was October of 96, yeah, October 11th through the 13th of 96, and, oh, sorry, the one thing I, one of the things I saved from the... 13 �Val Bode: This was one of my favorite slogans that came out of national, “Not all battles are fought with a sword”. Toby Jenkins: And so was this, Val, was this the very first time it was on display on the National Mall? Val Bode: No, this was the last time it was on display on the National Mall. The first time was 89, and I was, I was there for that display. I was there for the subsequent displays. Toby Jenkins: And in 89, who would have been president at the White House? Val Bode: Reagan, I think. Doug Hartson: Yeah. Val Bode: Was it Reagan? Doug Hartson: And he did not... Val Bode: Did not, did not... Dennis Neill: Bush. Yeah, it was Bush. Was it Bush? Yeah. Val Bode: Okay. Dennis Neill: But I noticed in the 1996, the final showing, that the honorary co-chairs were the president and Mrs. Clinton. Val Bode: Yes. Dennis Neill: I noticed Barney Frank was on there as well, and several other wellknown individuals. And I'm thinking, Doug, was that the year that you were the captain of Column 71? Doug Hartson: Yes. Val Bode: Yes. Dennis Neill: Tell us a little bit about that. Doug Hartson: Well, that was, first, very rewarding. But we were in charge, and again, it takes a village, and it takes a good team, from organizing the teams that were going to unfold the panels, who were going to read names. And in case of inclement weather, I missed the Senate dinner that night because it was going to rain, and we didn't have enough volunteers that were still around that, to get the Quilt back under cover. So, but it was… Challenging, to say the least, but it was something I'll never forget. Val Bode: It was a tremendous success. That was the year that the previous display had a lot of problems that came about, and the NAMES Project organization, national organization, as a result of those problems, recognized that their expertise did not lay with displays, that it was the chapters who were so good at displays 14 �because we did these major displays in our communities- not just us but probably a hundred other chapters- and so they decided that that knowledge should be put to use, that experience, and so the Quilt was divided into segments, virtual segments, where each chapter would have the responsibility for that segment, and as a result, I think it was a tremendously successful display. I really do. Doug Hartson: Not just because it was the last one, unfortunately, but it really went very well. Val Bode: It really did, from the steps of the Capitol Building to the pool of the Washington Monument, and when you see that area in its entirety and with the Quilt laid out, it's an incredibly impressive site. Toby Jenkins: Val and Doug, I want to ask you about a question that may just be urban legend, but it's kind of what I've heard for decades and I'm not real sure if it was Reagan or Bush, but I think when the first display Air Force One, not Air Force One- the helicopter had left the White House and it flew over and it hovered over it to take all of it in for the first time, and that that whoever was in the White House at that time, that began to be a door where there began to be a more national discussion about funding. Is that an urban legend? Val Bode: I saw the helicopter go over and I never saw it hover, did you? Doug Hartson: No. Val Bode: No, the helicopter flew over… Doug Hartson: And left the White House because they didn't want to. Val Bode: They didn't, yeah, they left the White House. Doug Hartson: In my opinion. Val Bode: - Well, in pretty much our opinion, they did not want to visit the Quilt, and I remember clearly we yelled shame, shame. Toby Jenkins: I think that was Reagan, Val Bode: I think it was Reagan. I remember it was Reagan. Toby Jenkins: You said the first display was in 80…. Val Bode: 89. Toby Jenkins: Yes, and I did check and it was Reagan. Val Bode: Yeah, I remember that clearly and I did see the helicopter, but I did not see it hover. Dennis Neill: So, with regard to the panels, do you recall, Doug, at that final display on the mall, how many Quilts were displayed for the final? Doug Hartson: How many individual panels? Val Bode: Oh, my goodness, I don't remember. 15 �Dennis Neill: Or do you know how many you were responsible for as the captain. Doug Hartson: Oh, I don't even remember that but a lot. I don't remember that either. Val Bode: It was kind of numbered, I think, by 12 by 12s, wasn't it 12 by 12s? Doug Hartson: Yeah, and it wasn't just the individual panels, because all the panels were made into a 12 by 12 section which is unfolded. So, as far as the individual panels- and I don't even know how many 12 by 12s there were- yeah… Dennis Neill: t was an impressive, incredible number. Val Bode: Absolutely, absolutely. Dennis Neill: And how about the local displays? How many would be the maximum that you think were on display in Tulsa? Doug Hartson: Well, the first one that we had at the Pavilion, we had it on the inner circle of the floor- oh, it's oval shape- and then the outer upper and then all on the floor. Val Bode: We hung panels around the bleachers. and I don't remember a number. It was a lot, it was a lot. And one of the things that I failed to mention about our local displays is we were, it was important to us to include school kids, and so the first day of the Quilt being open to the public was actually open to public schools, and we arranged with the schools in advance so they would have transportation and they brought high school kids- I think it was primarily high school kids- in by the bus load to see the Quilt and that was a really great success. One of my favorite stories came from Sharon Thoele and she spoke of a young man entering the display, and we were at the Pavilion that year- I don't know what year it was, but she spoke of him entering the Pavilion wearing his cowboy hat and his cowboy boots and strutting into the vicinity of the Quilt and she thought, oh, this is gonna be interesting. And she kind of kept an eye on him and as he walked around, she watched him and eventually she saw him on one knee with his hat in his hand and tears coming from his eyes as he viewed a panel. And that to me says it all about what the Quilt was about. It brought so much healing to people. I helped a number of people make panels for their loved ones. We had sewing bees. We had individual meetings to help people get started. Doug Hartson: Because they wanted to make one, they just didn't know the first thing to do. Val Bode: Didn't know what to do, how to get started. You know, the panel, individual panels are three feet by six feet and that's a sizable piece of fabric to work with. And so you have to kind of use your imagination to decide what, how you're going to fill that space. And I think what we did or what I did with people I met with was I arranged to meet with them in person and show them pictures and explain what these panels meant, even in regard to my own for Kenny, so that they would get an idea of how to express their love or their remembrance of the individual. And we had a lot of new panels come in at every display. They ultimately went to the National to be sewn into sections and are still there today. 16 �Toby Jenkins: So the question for our viewers earlier was how many Quilts were a part of the display in 1996 on the National Mall in Washington, DC? And I've looked this up, 42,000 individual Quilts. Val Bode: Thank you, Toby. Yes, 42,000. And so, and you think of that as such a tremendous number that's represented there, yet it was only a fraction of those who died, a small fraction. Dennis Neill: So you mentioned how emotional the experience could be for many people, and I'm sure there's many stories you could share about that. How about, and everything I've seen, the media coverage was very good in the Tulsa community. How about any pushback? Did you come up with any resistance or people that saying that we need to quit recognizing this AIDS situation? Doug Hartson: Personally, I didn't. It was quite the opposite. I had people from other organizations I was involved in at the time, not just TOHR, but my church, and they, like I said, knowledge is power. They really, I spoke in Sunday school classes about it, I took panels, and they were very open to learning more about the Quilt. So I personally never had any bad situations come up from it, fortunately. Dennis Neill: And I noticed at the National, lots of corporate sponsors, and we had a lot of corporate sponsors locally, as I recall. Doug Hartson: Yes. Val Bode: Yes we did. I'm having trouble remembering, but we did. And even unrecognized sponsors, for instance, at the time I worked for Oneok, and at the time I was involved with the displays, my management was very supportive of anything that I needed to do during the day involving the Quilt. And in addition to that, we had a wonderful graphic arts department that did just everything, and they would make my, you know, 500 copies of something and punch holes in it, or whatever I needed, publish our newsletter for us. They just did a tremendous amount that we would otherwise have had to pay for, and that was incredibly helpful. I don't remember any pushback from the public. We had tremendous support. It seemed everywhere we turned, you know, not everybody was able to help financially, but everyone seemed supportive. Dennis Neill: And you recall in 1996 there was also evidently a musical that was put on that was a benefit for the Names Project. Do you all recall that, and who helped pull that event together? Val Bode: Oh, who did that? Friends of Broken Arrow Community Playhouse, okay. Yeah, and I don't, I just don't remember a lot about that. Doug Hartson: I don't either, unfortunately. Dennis Neill: And other than Feast for Friends, do you recall any other kind of grassroots fundraisers that helped you all? Val Bode: Oh, hmm. Doug Hartson: That was, again, our main fundraiser of the year I don't recall any other... 17 �Toby Jenkins: So, I have two questions. Val Bode: Sure. Toby Jenkins: So, you would have been a part of the organizing group, maybe you know the answer to this. I know you've talked about it was on display at the Maxwell Convention Center, which today is Arvest, the Arvest Convention Civic Center, and it was on display at the fairgrounds at the Pavilion. Did your chapter have to pay a rental fee? No public dollars were used for that, so you didn't... Val Bode: We did pay a rental fee. That all came out of our fundraising efforts, yes. Toby Jenkins: Second question, do you have a guess? Like, were there 5,000 people that came through and viewed it? Weren't there 10,000? Do you remember? Val Bode: Yeah, we used to have numbers. Doug Hartson: We used to have the clicker at the door and keep track of how many did come. Val Bode: I cannot remember numbers. Doug Hartson: It was thousands, though. Val Bode: Yes, it was... Toby Jenkins So, this part of it, I remember it would have been in the early... What was the last time it was at the convention center? Val Bode: It would have been... Doug Hartson: Ninety... Val Bode: Ninety-six... Toby Jenkins: No, this would have been later. Dennis Neill: So, there was one in 1996. Val Bode: 1997,... yeah. I think it was 97, yeah. Toby Jenkins: So, I can remember when it was at the Maxwell Convention Center. I was recently out, and I had my children on the weekends, and I asked their mother if it would be all right if I took them to that, and they were both pre-adolescent, or I think my son was already 12 or 13. And I can remember this. We had to stand in line to get in the building for about 40 minutes. I mean, there was a long line. You parked, and then you had to stand in line to get in the building. So, I remember that part, and I can remember there being large crowds of us walking in between, so I remember that part of it. Dennis Neill: I think one quote Jack had was he expected 10,000. Val Bode: And I think we surpassed that at one point, yeah. The attendance was phenomenal. 18 �Dennis Neill: And Toby mentioned about paying rent and probably paying for security and so forth. Did you actually have to pay national, too, as part of... Val Bode: Yes. Dennis Neill: And kind of, how did that work out? Did you pay for just the transportation, or were there other fees associated? Val Bode: Actually, yes and no. Doug Hartson: For the Quilts to come from San Francisco… Val Bode: There was a fee, just a display fee. And we actually had transportation donated by a trucking company. I cannot remember their name, I'm sorry. We also had all of our stanchions that we used for display and divisions and so on and so forth. All of that was donated by a local company with whom Jack had a connection, and he arranged that every display. They were wonderful. We had most of our printing was donated, mostly by Oneok. And we listed them as a donor. I'm trying to remember, there were so many things. But it was costly to have a major display, because the fee to the national organization was significant. It was a significant fee, and so that was the starting point. And then you had all these other things. You had to rent the facility, you had to have security, you had to display materials, the printing, just so much that you wouldn't think of just off the top of your head. Dennis Neill: It seemed like you had volunteer counselors too. Val Bode: We did, we did, and many of those came from other organizations in town, but we reached out to RAIN and TOHR and all of the AIDS and HIV organizations for help from their counseling professionals so that when there was someone who was really in trouble, really having a tough time, we could get, hone in, the volunteer involved could hone in on a counselor and get them together and if necessary take them to a back room or whatever was required in order to help them get through it because some people became very emotional. It was really tough. Doug Hartson: We went through a lot of boxes of these [tissues]. Val Bode: We bought a lot of tissues. Doug Hartson: One of... each 12x12 because just like Sharon's story of the student with the cowboy hat, upon entering it was just like, oh yeah, there's another field trip and then by the time they were ready to leave it had touched his heart and did a lot of people. Whether you knew a person on that panel or not, it's just the emotion of realizing what that represents. Val Bode: And we saw that over and over and over again. Doug Hartson: Which made it, not sounding tacky, but it made it rewarding and knowing that we were reaching the community and that's why we were doing it. Val Bode: Well, and in retrospect, it was incredibly important work that we did. We, I don't think, fully realized at the time what we were doing as far as its impact, but we recognized it in little pieces like with the kid with the cowboy hat. The mother, there 19 �was a mother down near Muskogee who called me and wanted to make a panel for her son, but her husband, who was a stepdad, was objecting. He did not want her to be involved. And we talked, I don't know how many times, on the phone. And I did everything I knew to do to try and help her along with this process. And as our next display became closer and I had talked to her about bringing her panel to that display, she's always said, “I just don't think I'll be able to do it. My husband doesn't want me to do it. I don't know that I can do it”. And I remember at that display, someone who was working at the table where you checked in new panels came and found me and said, there's a lady here who wants to see you. And I would not have recognized, I'd never met her in person, but it was her. And that touched my heart because somehow, she was able to do that and to bring us her son's panel and she shared it with me and told me all about it and how she was so glad that she was finally able to do that and to bring it to us there at the Quilt display. And it had a tremendous impact on me that I was a little part of that and that somehow, she did what she wanted to do. Dennis Neill: So you mentioned this was a new panel. Was each display a mix of panels from National and then the local panels? And would you talk through a little bit about how that was accomplished, how you let new panels in, and then what was the process of returning those new panels to the NAMES Project? Val Bode: Okay. Doug Hartson: It was a combination of previous or older panels and then the new ones, like Val was saying, the mother from Muskogee, unfortunately there were always new panels. So there was a table at the display where you could bring your panel and check it in and then of course, we would include it in the current display. And then, I don't remember how long after the fact that we had to send it back to San Francisco, but again, we kept several here and several had been on display here at the Equality Center. Val Bode: We documented every new panel that came in with, you know, details of its content, details of the panel maker or panel makers, all of the information that the National Project would want to archive along with this panel. I believe we sent most of the new panels back with the remainder of the Quilt and along with the documentation. We may have kept a few for local displays. The national organization made every effort to send us 12 by 12 sections that included names that originated in Tulsa, whether it was a Tulsa person who lived here or a family or panel maker who lived here. And so they did a really good job of that. We also requested specifically individual 12 by 12s. Every 12 by 12 has a number and so we were able to look for names in the list that we wanted to have included and request that 12 by 12. And they were very accommodating about making that happen. It didn't happen always because there were other displays going on simultaneously all over the country, but they did a really good job of getting us the panels that we wanted to see. Dennis Neill: I believe the Names Project website, which is still a searchable website, does it have all that detail that you were to collect on each panel or is it just a summary like name and date of birth? 20 �Val Bode: Yeah, it's basically a summary. They have archival photos of every individual panel that are absolutely wonderful. My brother-in-law ordered for me and my sister a framed photo of Kenny's panel and then it has an inset at the bottom that says the Names Project AIDS Memorial Quilt. And they really have done a good job of archiving and protecting the Quilts. Dennis Neill: So Val, when you bring that up, I believe this must be an example of one from the National with Philip Bray? Val Bode: Absolutely, absolutely. Philip Bray, yes. Dennis Neill: Philip was very active with us with TOHR for a number of years. Val Bode: So you can see by this photo, it's a high-quality photo of the panel. You get that, Dennis? Dennis Neill: Thank you very much. Val Bode: Yeah, those are wonderful. Dennis Neill: So we're very blessed, Val and Doug, to have a nice collection of material that you all helped create. And one, I'd like for you to talk a little bit more, Val, about how Jack got involved, what was his emotional connection, and then talk to us a little bit about the material you have and then, Doug, you can talk a little bit about the material that you have. So Val, why don't you start? Val Bode: Well, Jack had a very close friend who died from AIDS, and I believe he had moved to Dallas. I think so. And that was the first panel that Jack made. I think Jack made several over the years, because he lost other friends as well. Jack was a man who was dedicated to things that he believed in. He was an officer in the Navy. He was a successful employee of Social Security after his retirement from the Navy, and he was a force with which to be reckoned. And so Jack, I think, was one of the first people in Tulsa to recognize that this entity, the Quilt, had tremendous power, that it had the power to heal, the power to teach, the power to change minds. And he was dedicated to the Quilt. His dedication had no bounds. He was there every minute of every day of every display. He never missed a moment of it. And his ability to impact the rest of us was very strong, wasn't it, Doug? He was a strong personality who could be a gentle giant and a delightful man. And I was honored one time he referred to me as the daughter he never had. And that touched me very deeply because he was a sweetheart to me. I remember, he could be difficult to deal with at moments, he had his times. Doug Hartson: This is true. Yeah. Val Bode: But when he decided to retire from the active board of the NAMES Project Tulsa, Sharon Thoele and I took over, and Jack had trouble letting go, and I remember Sharon saying, well, we've just got to talk to him. And we agreed, and she said, well, you're going to have to do it because he likes you better. Dennis Neill: Do you remember what year that was? 21 �Val Bode: It was late in the 90s, yeah. Dennis Neill: So was he involved with you for all four? Val Bode: Yes. Every single one. Toby Jenkins: So Val has talked about Jack Francis, who his picture, and he is on our military veterans wall of honor, and you talked about his being a very direct and forceful person. That was because he was a lieutenant commander of an Air Force carrier in World War II. So he served our country, and so he was used to people doing what he said. Doug Hartson: And we did. Val Bode: I have to share a story with you. Jack died peacefully in his sleep, and his dear friend Don Barnum and I found him in his home, in his apartment, because we became concerned, we couldn't reach him. And so we were there into the wee hours of the night waiting for the medical examiner or someone. And I remember one of the police officers who first responded to our 911 call and seemed to be in charge, noticed a framed picture of Jack with some medals and his title. And he came to me and he said, I see your friend was a lieutenant commander in the Navy. And I said, yes, he was. And he said, that's a pretty high rank. And I said, yes, I know that. And if he could sit up right now, he would tell you to get this show on the road. Toby Jenkins: So let me interject this. In 2011, when the ban was lifted on allowing gays to serve openly in the military, and we had military recruiters come from the Pentagon, Jack was in the lobby when they arrived. And when the U.S. Navy military recruiter walked through, Jack stood out of his chair. By then he was pretty feeble and he stood out of his chair and he saluted him. And then he sat down and just wept and wept. That military recruiter kind of hugged him and it was a very emotional thing that he had lived long enough to see gay people be able to serve openly in the military. This is so our viewers will know who Jack Francis was. Val Bode: Thank you. Yes. He was very proud of his military service. And that meant a great deal to him that he did live to see that happen. Toby Jenkins: Well, that explained why he was forced to be... Doug Hartson: Yes, Jack, whatever you say, Jack. Val Bode: Yes. Dennis Neill: So Val, talk a little bit more about your collection of information. Val Bode: Well, just over the years, I saved everything I could think of that came along. So many photographs from not only the national displays, but our regional displays. And those were really important that I was able to share them. It was great that I had someone to share them with. My concern was, what is going to happen to these when I'm gone from this earth? My grandchildren, they probably don't want them. And although some of my grandchildren are in those books as little children and they're grown adults now, but to having the Equality Center be willing to take these things from me and... 22 �Dennis Neill: We are honored. Val Bode: Thank you. Thank you. I am so happy to know that they will be cared for and that they'll be available to other people because everything that's in here was important to me. Doug Hartson: It's history. Val Bode: It's part of my history and I feel it's some of the most important work I've ever done. Dennis Neill: Amanda, you promise to take good care of her materials? Amanda Thompson: Absolutely! Val Bode: Thank you, Amanda. Amanda Thompson: It's a big honor. Dennis Neill: And Doug, do you want to talk a little bit about what you have? Doug Hartson: Basically the same stuff. Anyone who knows me knows that I keep a lot of paperwork and save everything, like Jack did. So, no, I feel just like Val does that...My nephews don't want it and I, going through things at home, I was just like this is such a big part of my life and I want others to have the privilege to seeing this. It is part of our history and those who weren't even born yet to have the opportunity to look and and hopefully also be touched and know that it's unfortunately not over, that it's an important part of all of our lives, and so I'm. As I come across more goodies, I will definitely bring them down to you, but I'm very grateful that OkEq is going to take care of it. Dennis Neill: Thank you very much. Toby, why don't you talk a little bit more with them about the involvement of the center and how the Quilts came here and then your story about when we send them back and anything else you want to cover. Toby Jenkins: So, Dennis is wanting us to highlight how, as y'all were on the front end of how the Quilts came into being, this was the way for families and friends to be able to express their love and remember their loved ones, and it also then became an advocacy tool that you were able to display it to the public, and it changed the heart of a nation. It changed our country. It appealed to something that everybody in our country had a connection: the loss of a loved one and family- and these are not outsiders. This is my family member, and I love them. So the Quilts were, when we opened the Equality Center, when we purchased this permanent space, we became one of the few LGBT organizations in the country that owned its own building. Now I know that that's not profound, but it was at the time. We had our own building and it belonged to us. It wasn't a leased space, and so that's how we were able to approach- at that time I think the Names Project was in AtlantaDoug Hartson: Yes. Val Bode: Yes Toby Jenkins: So we were able to approach them. And they allowed us… we have the documents they allowed us to have on permanent display, the panels we 23 �specifically had on the permanent display, the panels of individuals from Oklahoma, not just necessarily Tulsa, but from Oklahoma. Yeah, so, more than once, more than once, I would say dozens and dozens of times- we would have family members and friends, coworkers, people who went to church, college. They would come to the center and see the panel, see a Quilt panel, and had no idea it would be here and would see it for the first time, and it would be a very emotional, moving time. So when individuals would tour the Equality Center, we had university groups, corporations, faith communities who would tour- we always made sure we brought special attention and explained the AIDS panels and the stories. Always in those tours there would be individuals who would recognize the names of those Tulsans or those Oklahomans. And then when they moved, when they built the new AIDS Museum in San Francisco, the national organization wanted to bring all the Quilts in, and so they asked that our Quilts return. And well, there was, you know, kind of some confusion over that and we decided at the moment I mean, I was willing to fight- these are our Quilts, these are Oklahoma Quilts. You told us we can have them on display. And when we finally our board, decided, you know, we need, we need to let them be a part of the national thing. And so we, Jeremy Stevens and his partner, Alan Mueggenborg, I think as I pronounce it. They approached us. Jeremy Stevens was serving on the board at the time and he said we could make replicas of those. And so what we did is we pulled in our photographers and our staff and it was a very detailed process and we had, if you remember Council Oak, we had the Quilt is going to be leaving, you come see it, and we had thousands of people come to see it for the last weekend and then we took those pictures and we created silk screen panels that are there's such high quality definition photography that when you look at them you think you're looking at a three-dimensional image, because the Quilts you could- I mean it had people's personal effects, their letter jackets, their baptismal gowns, their legos, so we made sure we did it. Now, the reason that became significant, CenterLink- the International Network of LGBT centers- when they heard that we had done that, they asked for us to do a little tutorial on how we did that and then other centers then would request the panels from their area and they would bring them in and have them digitally reproduced. And so it became a way that centers across the country could have facsimiles is what they are. The other part that I want to talk about is the way it was able to change people's lives. It made it personal instead of this being a report you heard on the news about right wing fundamentalist people who wanted to use this as this is God's judgment on the country and they brought them up, you know, when we were in this, Americans have lots of opinions and so there were people who ostracized them, there were people who felt like they got what they deserved, but the AIDS Quilts shut that down. It brought that to silence and it made them be ashamed of them being so cruel and the majority of the American people began to say these are our people, these are our families, these are our siblings and our children and our spouses and our coworkers and this is them and it really changed the hearts of the country. The other significant part, I wish I had the medical technology for this, but the AIDS epidemic 24 �was so frightening because we didn't know and then there wasn't a treatment. You were diagnosed, you got sick and you could be gone quickly. Doug, do you happen to remember the first friend you had die of AIDS? Do you remember? Val, do you remember any details like that? Val Bode. Kenny was the first person I actually knew who had AIDS. If there was anybody earlier, I was not aware of it. Doug Hartson: John Thomeyer was probably mine and then there's the list, but I'm happy to say that I have quite a few friends who are living with HIV and AIDS, fortunately with the cocktails and other medications that have come along, which I think is all part of it. That circle is that okay, this is the problem, this is part of acknowledging and remembering the problem and then you come up with hopefully a solution and again, knowledge is power. Toby Jenkins: So this is the point I want to make about that. The researchers, the medical professionals who were trying to find a treatment for those who had been infected and those who were living with AIDS, that took over a decade for them to finally find…that discovery, that medical discovery, that treatment plan, 30 years later is what saved this world from the pandemic destroying the world. The deaths were horrific, but they were small compared to what they could have been because the medical discoveries and treatment plans, those same treatment plans that saved individuals' lives, then began the treatment plan for us to have our vaccines and for us to be able to save people's lives. So for me, I remember when the news began to report this and Fauci was our, I forget what his role was… Dennis Neill: Pretty much head of CDC. Toby Jenkins: So I can remember at the time when the news broke that they found something and it was the people who had worked on the AIDS vaccines. I remember thinking to myself, they did not die in vain. We didn't lose them in vain. Their lives will live on, their legacies will live on. They saved the world from a greater pandemic. Doug Hartson: Decades later, I mean, who would have ever thought? Val Bode: Yes. Dennis Neill: So what else would you all like to share about the NAMES Project, your personal involvement, the impact, and how you see a living legacy of the NAMES Project going forward? Val Bode: I think it's something that we can continue to share, that even though we don't have active panels, active chapter in Tulsa, we can continue to share with friends, acquaintances, family, our stories as we're doing here today. And as we have spoken and gone on, I think of my, I have five grandchildren, mostly grown, all of them, and five great-grandchildren at varying stages of their lives. And for my great-grandchildren, you know, I raised three of my grandchildren, and they were with me all the time at NAMES Project meetings and displays and everything, and so they remember all this very clearly, and they still talk about it. But my great- 25 �grandchildren have no exposure to this, and I plan to give them some. It is my desire in being here and hearing our own stories to share some of this with those little ones. They need to know that this happened, that their uncle was one of the names on this Quilt, and that we remember his name. Dennis Neill: Hopefully, once we have the video ready for you, they'll be willing to sit down and see it. Val Bode: Absolutely. Dennis Neill: And Doug, how about for you? Doug Hartson: Basically, never forget. We don't have any displays currently. I think it's wonderful that everything is housed in San Francisco, so it's not lost. There's not a panel that someone made that's going to be forgotten. But it doesn't need to be forgotten here. We need to keep it current. We need to keep the people who were not even born yet aware of what major part of our history this is or was and still is. And so just never forget, and may it live on. Dennis Neill: I think it's particularly important that we do keep the focus, because we know the current administration is downplaying World AIDS Day and the other important steps that had been taken previously. But we're still going to be there, and we're still going to be telling these stories, aren't we? Val Bode: Yes, we are. Dennis Neill: Toby, anything else you think we should cover in this interview. Toby Jenkins: Well, I just want you to know what an honor. Thank you so much. That must have taken hours and money out of your own pockets, and you had to miss lots of other stuff, and you probably, you were so busy. And I know that probably at the time, you may have had people who criticized or complained, why didn't you do it this way? But thank you so much that you did it, and that both of you have faithfully kept materials that can become a part of the official archives. Val Bode: Well, and I think a great deal of the honor is ours as well. I'm certainly honored that you would invite us here to do this, and that you are willing to take our souvenirs and take care of them. Doug Hartson: Our cherished possessions. Toby Jenkins: And I would say this. I don't know that Val, I've ever knew this part about Kenny, that his panel had Legos on it. And I'm telling you, this could be taken out to schools. Because right now, Legos is everybody. Val Bode: It's big, yes. Toby Jenkins: And people would really connect with it. Val Bode: I think you're right, yeah. And in fact, my grandchildren, who were little at the time when we did this, they were always intrigued with Uncle Kenny's panel because it had Legos on it. You know, that was a big draw for them. Dennis Neill: So can you retrieve the panels for a showing any more? 26 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah, you can. Doug and Val: You can. Dennis Neill: We need to think about that for the next World AIDS Day. Dennis Neill: Any final comments that you all would like to share? Doug Hatson: Just thank you for having us. Val Bode: Oh, thank you for this opportunity. It's been delightful. Dennis Neill: Like Toby said, it is our honor. Val Bode: Well, ours as well. Dennis Neill: We will protect it. Val Bode: Thank you. Doug Hartson: Thank you. Val Bode: All of you. 27 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] HIV & AIDS > NAMES Project Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 3, Folder 5 - NAMES Project<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Val Bode and Doug Hartson Interview Description An account of the resource Deed of gifts and informed consents available in person at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center. Subject The topic of the resource Val Bode and Doug Hartson Names Project Interview from February 12, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Val Bode, Doug Hartson, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 12, 2026 2026 AIDS AIDS deaths AIDS Quilt AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV discrimination AIDS/HIV education Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill Dennis R. Neill Equality Center Doug Hartson Equality Center Feast with Friends HIV HIV/AIDs interview NAMES Project NAMES Project quilt OkEq Equality Center oral history oral history interview oral history transcript transcript Val Bode video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/c9d67df35090fb846d82e38728243423.jpeg 3f7500dd0ec1f26bfe646192d40da5e3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Collection] Oklahoma LGBT+ History Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br /><br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Veteran's Wall https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/fe275c248ba0dbafa7183acaf093ec10.pdf 4d660208dae603563b4e8c3a5a02f83a PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Warren Ray Duvall Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: February 10, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, February 23, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Warren Duvall Summary This interview with Warren explores his life story, from growing up on a family farm in Oklahoma to his military service and his journey as a gay man. Warren shares personal insights into his experiences with sexuality, military service during Vietnam, and navigating life in Oklahoma and Florida. This interview provides a deep insight into the life experiences of a long-time LGBTQ+ community member, covering personal stories, community involvement, and the evolution of LGBTQ+ rights and health issues over decades. Keywords Oklahoma history, LGBTQ+ journey, military service, Vietnam era, personal stories, Oklahoma farm, gay life, military healthcare, social change, personal growth LGBTQ+ history, community activism, AIDS awareness, gay rodeo, bear clubs, senior LGBTQ+ support, Tulsa Key Topics ● Family farm history in Oklahoma ● Military service during Vietnam era and Japan ● Journey of sexual identity and coming out Personal stories of LGBTQ+ life and community involvement ● The impact of AIDS on the community and healthcare responses ● The development of gay rodeo, bear events and community events ● Support for LGBTQ+ elders and seniors Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 02:02 Family Farm History in Oklahoma 03:53 Growing Up in Muldrow and School Life 2 �08:01 Experiences with Segregation and Community 12:01 Post-High School Education and Military Draft 14:53 Military Service in U.S, Navy in the Vietnam Era and Stationing Japan 19:58 Reflections on Military Service and Vietnam Memorial 21:02 Realization of Sexual Orientation 24:57 Exploring Gay Identity in the Military and Florida 29:54 Relationships and Coming Out to Family 40:08 Life in Tulsa and Connecting with the LGBTQ+ Community 48:04 First Experiences in Gay Bars and Social Life 54:59 Personal Relationships and Life Changes 02:29 Meeting the First Partner and Early Community Life 06:55 First Encounters with AIDS and Healthcare Response 14:53 Community Involvement and Fundraising Efforts 24:57 The Role of Gay Rodeo and Cultural Identity 34:55 Support for Elders and the Impact of COVID-19 45:11 Reflections on a Life of Service and Activism 54:59 Advice for Younger Generations and Future Outlook Warren Duvall Oral History Interview Feb 10, 2026 Toby Jenkins: All right, this is Toby Jenkins and Amanda Thompson, the archivist at Oklahomans for Equality, and Dennis Neill, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality. Here we are in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library for our archival interview with a wonderful person. Your name, please? Warren Duvall: Warren Ray Duvall. Toby Jenkins: And you live here in Tulsa, Warren? Warren Duvall: I live here in Tulsa, I've returned. I've been back for six years. I lived here for 33 years. Had to go back to the farm for 13 years. And we sold off half of it, but that included the house. Toby Jenkins: And where is the farm? Warren Duvall: It's south of Muldrow, Oklahoma. The farm's about two miles from the Arkansas River down there. Toby Jenkins: Oh, wonderful. So, in Tulsa, and I'm still- What county is that? Warren Duvall: That's Sequoyah County. Toby Jenkins: But you're still in Oklahoma? Warren Duvall: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Sallisaw and Sequoyah? Warren Duvall: Yeah, Sallisaw is the county seat. 3 �Toby Jenkins: All right, so Warren, where were you born? Warren Duvall: Well, I was conceived in Oklahoma. I was the first member of my siblings, and there was four of us. My mother and my three siblings were all born at home in the same bedroom. I was the first one that they took my mother to the hospital, and I was delivered in St. Edward's Mercy Hospital in Fort Smith, Arkansas. Toby Jenkins: I know it well. That's where my son was born. Toby Jenkins: So, are you from down around that area? That's where your farm is? You told me. Is that a payor's farm? Warren Duvall: Yeah, it's 15 miles east of the Arkansas-Oklahoma border. Toby Jenkins: And so that's down by Muldrow, as we talked earlier. How long has the farm been in your family? Warren Duvall: It's my mother's father. He came there in 1900 and started buying land from some of the Indians that, at that point, had been allotted 160 acres or whatever they gave back then. And so he started buying up land. At one point, he had about 500 acres. So he was a big farmer. I wouldn't say he was a rancher, but he ran a dairy also. So he was a pretty big-time farmer over the years. Toby Jenkins: So this farm has now been in your family over 100 years. Warren Duvall: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And your mother was born there, your siblings. But they took you, she went to the hospital for you. Warren Duvall: For me. Toby Jenkins: And what year would that have been? Warren Duvall: That was, my Lord… Toby Jenkins: Your date of birth. Warren Duvall: December 20th, 1947. Toby Jenkins: 1947, right after the war. Warren Duvall: Right, I’m a post-war baby. Toby Jenkins: So you were born there in Muldrow. Did you grow up there? How long did you? Warren Duvall: I grew up on the farm just south of Muldrow. The only part of being in Arkansas was, that's where the hospital was. So I went across the border and was born in Fort Smith, Arkansas at St. Edward's Hospital. Toby Jenkins: Did you go to school in Muldrow, or was there? 4 �Warren Duvall: I started out in a little country school called the Lee's Chapel, which is the Lee's Chapel community. When I started, they had eight grades there. And probably, I'd say 35 students. And after a couple years, they went down to one teacher because the population started reducing, it was worse for the students. And so for probably the third and fourth grade, we were just sixth grade. And then we just were part of the Muldrow. Toby Jenkins: You were consolidated with Muldrow? Warren Duvall: Consolidated, well, yeah, yes. Toby Jenkins: Did you go to high school in Muldrow? Warren Duvall: Did everything else outside of a very short period of time in Oklahoma City for two weeks in the fourth grade. I did that when I left Lee's Chapel and went to Muldrow in the fifth grade, all the way through graduation. Toby Jenkins: So you would have graduated from high school in 1966 from Muldrow? Warren Duvall: From Muldrow High School. Toby Jenkins: Okay, now did you, y'all lived on the farm. Did your family farm? I mean, is that what your parents did for their careers? Warren Duvall: Well, by the time, I don't know exactly when, but when I was a very small child, they had to, dad was farming the farm. Dad had a drinking problem and it was my mother's farm. She would never sign him over to it because she always said he'd just lose it. And so anyway, we farmed it. We started leasing out the bottom land, which is the farm land, crop land, the upland, the pasture land. We still kept that, kept cattle. And my brothers and dad and mom all had horses. I never had a horse back then. I rode behind my dad a lot. Used to, you know, he'd start galloping some and I was about to go, bouncing. Hanging on for dear life. Toby Jenkins: You lived out in the country. Did you ride a school bus? Warren Duvall: School bus. Toby Jenkins: What were your interests in school? Warren Duvall: In school, recess. Warren Duvall: Geography, history. Actually, I didn't enjoy history in school. You learn to enjoy history after Toby Jenkins: So were you in like school activities? Warren Duvall: Well, at least chapel, the school, there really wasn't much school activity. Field trips and things like that. But there were no active sports for us. We just did, I guess you'd call it intramural things on the playground. Toby Jenkins: So when you got to Muldrow, were you involved in school activities there? 5 �Warren Duvall: In junior high, I played basketball and football in the summer of the eighth grade, or in the spring. Two weeks before the school year was out, I came down with a rare disease called infectious mononucleosis. It was also, the nickname of it was the kissing disease. I don't know if you've heard that, but that's because the soldiers picked it up in Europe and brought it back to the United States. I was one of two people in the county that had it that year. I have no idea where it came from. Toby Jenkins: Were you kissing soldiers? Warren Duvall: Not yet. Toby Jenkins: So that was there in Muldrow. Warren Duvall: So after that, they wouldn't let me play sports for three years, and by the end, I didn't feel like it. Toby Jenkins: Were you in choir, or in a band, or? Warren Duvall: No, boys didn't do that in Muldrow High School. Toby Jenkins: But you worked on a farm, so you had to do chores. Warren Duvall: Rigorous farm chores. Toby Jenkins: And you had to do all that before you went to school? Warren Duvall: Oh yeah, got up at the crack of dawn and milked the cows and fed the cows. Toby Jenkins: Just out of curiosity, you said you graduated in 1966. Integration would have been an issue that would have been happening all around you in Oklahoma. Do you remember if your school class was an integrated school in Muldrow? I mean, were there black students? Yeah. Native American students? Warren Duvall: The Muldrow had a one through six black elementary school. For black students. Toby Jenkins: Segregated. Warren Duvall: Segregated. But then once they came to junior high, it was integrated. And I, it was before I graduated, they closed down the elementary school, so the black elementary school. So they were fully integrated. Toby Jenkins: By the time you were in high school? Warren Duvall: Yeah, I would think so. Toby Jenkins: Now, I know that Fort Chaffee's not far from there. Warren Duvall: Correct. Toby Jenkins: So there's kind of a large population of Cuban refugees, Vietnamese refugees. Did you go to school with any Vietnamese or Cuban? 6 �Warren Duvall: No, because that was after. Toby Jenkins: That was later. Warren Duvall: Yeah, that was much later. Toby Jenkins: So you graduated from high school in Muldrow. Now, did you go to the north side high school or the south side high school, or was there just one high school? Warren Duvall: Just one high school. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And still that way. Warren Duvall: My class graduated 103. Toby Jenkins: Well, now, that's a big class for an Oklahoma. That was the biggest class. Warren Duvall: Well, it was the biggest class they ever had. Warren Duvall: It was several years before they exceeded that. Of course, it's a lot more now. Toby Jenkins: And you graduated in 1966. Just out of curiosity, do you remember anything about our times, like your favorite music or your favorite movie star or your favorite... Warren Duvall: Well, I loved to dance. We partied a lot. This is junior high only. We didn't do that particularly in elementary school years. I don't know. Toby Jenkins: You remember your favorite music, your favorite musician? Warren Duvall: Just, you know, rock and roll, bebop, whatever you want, swing dance and all that sort of thing. And then by senior high, we had a little group of guys for a band and we had picnics and we'd... fill up one of those covered picnic areas. We did that a lot in my senior year. Toby Jenkins: Were you in the band? Warren Duvall: No, no. I have no musical talent. No one in my family does. Toby Jenkins: Just danced. Warren Duvall: But loved to dance. Toby Jenkins: Now, you get finished with high school. What did you do after that? Warren Duvall: I went almost directly. I graduated at the end of May, and I went into the radiology program at St. Edwards Mercy Hospital in July of 66. It was a two-year program, hospital based. Most nursing programs and lab techs and radiology students and so forth, the hospital owned back then. Even OU had a program, but it was a certificate program. It wasn't a degreed program at that time. So, I have a graduation certificate in licensed radiology for 40 years. 7 �Toby Jenkins: Through St. Edwards in... Warren Duvall: That was my school. Toby Jenkins: And was that where you went to work right after that? Warren Duvall: For a short period of time. Toby Jenkins: And then what happened? Warren Duvall: Well, we graduated in July and in August I got my Selective Service Physical Request. So, I went down, well, with Dad and Mom's advice, go join... Dad was in the Navy. So, he said, go down and join the Navy. I don't want you in infantry. Toby Jenkins: So, you had your certification in radiology. So, you had a medical background. Warren Duvall: Correct. Toby Jenkins: And you got your draft notice. What war was the United States fighting? Warren Duvall: The Vietnam War. Big time. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember your feelings when that happened, when you got that notice? I mean, by then you're a young man, you're already having a career path. Do you remember... Warren Duvall: Well, back then, the Selective Service, once you got out, whoever you were employed with, they had to hire you back. I don't know if it's still a policy or not because it's voluntary now. But, so when I got out, and I did radiology in the Navy, that typical military. The Navy had programs in schools, so they had A, B, and C as you went up the line. So, they had their own radiology program. So, they made me go, obviously through boot camp, and then they made me go to a core school for six months, even though I was a radiographer. And then when I got... I joined the Naval Reserve, and that was an obligation for six years, minimum six years. Two years active duty. And I did about, of six years, I did about half of it active and about half of it active reservist. I had to go to meetings during the week and summer camps. And that was from 68 to 74. Toby Jenkins: Now, were you ever deployed into Vietnam? Warren Duvall: I wasn't deployed to Vietnam, but I was sent to the US Naval Hospital in Yokosuka, Japan. We got medevacs every day from Vietnam, which was mostly Marines, all kinds of shapes. Some of them didn't make it. Some might get a little emotional here. You know, these guys came in all kinds of shapes. Some of them didn't leave the hospital alive. You would have incidents like you would maybe doing a portable x-ray in ICU. And let's say the patient was, you know, lost his legs and one arm. And he was delirious and had a fever. I was trying to do a portable xray on him. And he kept calling for his mom. He kept wanting me to scratch his foot. He 8 �didn't have legs, you know. So those kinds of things. Now, a corpsman on the floor wouldn't be directly involved with patient care. As a radiographer, I just dealt with them when we were performing some kind of radiology procedure on them. We had a separate unit upstairs for the officers. They were cared for separately. Got more care, more specific one-on-one type of care than the ward guys did. Some of the guys would come down with diseases in Vietnam. The U.S. Naval Hospital was the Navy's Far East Hospital. So we were the primary hospital for, you know, let's say a soldier or a sailor was injured seriously or moderately. They would come to us. We would do triage. The triage initially took place in Vietnam. And then they sent them to us for a lot of correcting surgeries and things. Then they were sent to the state side, to the military hospitals for major repairs. Additional medical care. Toby Jenkins: So you had to stabilize them. So you were in a trauma unit, basically seeing people in trauma.. Warren Duvall: Well, the hospital was basically a trauma. You could also serve civilians, dependents. There was housing on the base. Not a lot for dependents And then there was a place about, I don't know, 20 miles off the base where they had a unit just for civilians of the military housing. And I don't know how many, let's say a few hundred there. So we took care of them. And the World's Fair was taking place. Let's see, I went there in February of 1970. It was actually February 20, 1970. And I got out on February 20, 1972. So it had been two years to the day I left for it. I returned home. Toby Jenkins: And that was in Japan. You were stationed in Japan. And what was the name of the city again? Warren Duvall: Yokosuka, Y-O-K-O-S-U-K-A. Toby Jenkins: OK. Well, on behalf of our staff here, we want to thank you for your service to the American people. Warren Duvall: We weren't treated very well back then coming home. Toby Jenkins: No, there was such a, it was a volatile time in our nation's history. Warren Duvall: And you didn't wear your uniforms off base. You just didn't talk about your military openly unless it was just someone you knew or whatever. So the way we're accepted now was so foreign in the beginning it took me a long time to put on a cap or whatever. And I do that regularly ever since, ever since I guess Iraq and Afghanistan. Conflicts and so forth. Then people started thanking you for your service. Toby Jenkins: Well, I think probably just my thoughts. There began to be a strong advocacy that the Vietnam vets had done their duty. They did what they were told and required to do. They didn't make the decision whether we were in or not. And don't you feel like the Vietnam Memorial in Washington, D.C. began to change the nation's attitude? 9 �Warren Duvall: It was such a- Well, I'm sure it had a lot to do with it. Such a moving and meaningful- Yeah, if you've never been there, it's extremely moving because you have the Wall. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and they have a replica of it that travels around the country. It's been in Tulsa at least twice. Warren Duvall: Yeah, I've been to it in Oklahoma City and in Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: So how old were you when you got out of the military? Warren Duvall: How was I? I was 24. Toby Jenkins: So you were just a young man. Were you married? Did you marry? Warren Duvall: Never married. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Now, during this time, how do you identify? What is your sexual orientation? Warren Duvall: Well, I'm a gay man. Toby Jenkins: You're a gay man. Warren Duvall: I've been gay all my life, but I didn't know it. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So when did you become aware of your sexual orientation, you had attraction to your same sex? Warren Duvall: So there was a, yeah, there was a, I guess. Toby Jenkins: When did you, when were you aware that you were attracted to men and that others were not? That the other boys didn't have those things? Warren Duvall: Well, I battled that, let's say in high school. Cause, you know, my best friend, I mean, you know we were growing up and slept together and everything. So it was very comforting for me to snuggle up with him. He was just about as straight as you could ever be. But that sort of thing, because I started realizing that, you know, that I was more interested in my same sex than I was in the opposite sex. Toby Jenkins: So in high school, this wouldn't have been, were you able to tell anybody you had those feelings? Warren Duvall: No, I didn't admit that to myself at that time. I was always under the impression that I would, you know, this was an adolescent thing, and that I would like to grow out of it. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you went off, you got out of high school, you went over to school in Fort Smith, to radiology as an adult, now. Did you pursue that then? I mean, did you… 10 �Warren Duvall: I did get offered one after I graduated, and I was solo working the night shift. I had a student with me part of the time, but this guy that was in the, he was orderly in the ER, and he started getting extra friendly with me. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so he flirted? Warren Duvall: Yeah, and actually talked me into taking him into a room and locking the door. Toby Jenkins: So he was your first intimate? Warren Duvall: No, my cousin. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, okay. Warren Duvall: Eventually, we were little then, but eventually in junior high and into high school, so now we would still… Toby Jenkins: You were a young adult. You knew what you… Warren Duvall: When I started realizing and accepting, it was when I was overseas in the Navy, and you're around men everywhere. The only women were nurses, basically, young officers. They had male and female nurses, but it started in my attraction. Some of my friends are just someone that I physically was attracted to. I realized in high school that I was extremely fond of some of the male…The Big Valley, you remember the half-brother, what was his name? Anyway, he was always shuffling his shirt. It was a country and western. I was very attracted. Toby Jenkins: Bonanza? Warren Duvall: No, it wasn't Bonanza, but I think it was the Big Valley, but anyway. Yeah, I think that's what it was. Toby Jenkins: So you definitely liked some of the guys on the Big Valley. Big Valley was a TV show. Barbara Stanwyck was in that. Toby Jenkins: In the military. .. Warren Duvall: Didn't do anything in the military. Toby Jenkins: But you became aware. Warren Duvall: Became very aware. Toby Jenkins: Were there other gay men? Did you meet other gay men in the military? Warren Duvall: Not until, well, I was around them, but I didn't learn to just, I don't know. The last month or two I was there, I found out there was a group of gay guys that lived off base that leased a house, and there's about six or seven of them. But I never had any contact with them. Toby Jenkins: Any relationship. 11 �Warren Duvall: There was one guy that was, he was a lab tech, and he was very feminine, and he was very expressive and everything, and a voice that went along with the stereotype, so he was pretty obvious. Nobody said anything, well, I mean, they may have, but not in the general population of the hospital. Toby Jenkins: So you said you never explored that while you were in the military. Now, when you left the bases, while you were deployed, did you ever go out and find gay clubs in Japan, or? Warren Duvall: I knew of one off base, which we went into. I mean, they would be straight guys, and some of them might have been gay, but you know. We went as a curiosity of going into a gay bar, that sort of thing. Before I left the active duty, I'd made up my mind that I was going to explore my gayness when I got back to the States. I didn't know it was all around me. But so I went exploring sooner if I don't make it. Toby Jenkins: Finished with your deployments, and you returned to the United States, and where was it, did you go directly back to Oklahoma? Warren Duvall: I went back to Oklahoma, and went back to work at the hospital where I trained, because they had to hire me back. And then a friend of mine, a good friend before, went to a neighboring community, Roland. Of course, we were adversaries in school, but Roland was, at that time, much smaller, it really wasn't even much, a couple service stations. Then Interstate 40 came through, Roland, and Roland just exploded. Toby Jenkins: So you had come back, decided that you were gonna explore your sexual orientation. Warren Duvall: So this guy graduated from Rowland, but when the fall semester started and my fellow classmates were going off to school, he was in Wilburton, junior college in Wilburton. Okay, some of my fellow students were down there and they met him and when they came home on the weekends and the partying and stuff, that's how I got acquainted with him and we had particular fondness for each other. Toby Jenkins: So y'all developed a relationship? Warren Duvall: Not an intimate relationship, but over time. He showed up after I had come back. One night he showed up, he'd become a teacher and taught in Ponca City for a year before he came back. He was going to Florida, he had two fellow female teachers that had gone to Florida and found jobs down there and he said, why don't you go with me and let's look for work down there. Well, that was just an ideal thing for me because I was going to get away either to Florida or New York State. The only gay cousin that I know I had, but probably not, but he was older than my mother because his father was my grandfather, Tidwell, mom's father. His first wife died from one of those diseases they had back then, consumption or whatever. And then he was single for many years. So he had one son and the one son got married and had two kids, one girl, one boy. Well, Fred was actually four years older than mom, but mom was his aunt because there was a long gap between when my grandfather married the second time. 12 �Toby Jenkins: Was he gay? Warren Duvall: Well, yeah, he was gay, but no one knew that. He went through the military during the war. He was an officer, he had a doctorate in business, so he taught at universities and things in California. When I was getting out, or let's say the last six months or so, he started writing to me. He'd come home because his parents were in California and they were dying one at a time and his sister took care of them. I don't think she ever married, but I didn't really know her. I don't know if I probably saw her when I was young. Toby Jenkins: And where did he live? Warren Duvall: When he started contacting me, he was in New York City. I think he taught business at New York City University, I believe. So he started writing me letters because he'd come home, stopped spending time with mom, either going or coming from his parents, and they died pretty close together. So mom put him in my old bedroom, and so he started writing to me. He would tell me, well, your mom put me in your bedroom, I just, you know, I felt really comfortable there and I felt like I needed to write you a letter if you'd wanted me to communicate with. So we communicated back and forth until I got out and he wanted me to come and see him. He told me that he had this young man that lived with him. That's as much as he told me. So when I got out and then my friend came along and went to Florida, so I was gay, he was gay, and after we moved to Florida, Roy and I got an apartment and then the night I pulled in with my U-Haul, my motorcycle, my U-Haul and my few possessions, I saw this huge man because I pulled into the parking lot and the back of our apartment had sliding doors and I could see this huge man in there. So I, you know, I went in, and Roy introduced me to Gary, and Gary was the nicest guy. He was a school teacher. We both got jobs down there, so he hadToby Jenkins: You got a job in a hospital. What city in Florida? Warren Duvall: In Florida it would have been...The hospital was in Cocoa, which is on the mainland from Cocoa Beach, and the name of the hospital was Wusthof, a 200-bed hospital. So that's where I went to work. But anyway, after a while Gary invited me and Roy to move in with him because his roommates were leaving or whatever. I think he had a couple of roommates and so, to make a long story short, there was three gay guys living together, none of us talking about gayness, and there was a TV series, gosh, I can't remember the name of it. It was the first thing I saw in a TV series where this guy was a married man and realized he was gay and came out. And that story was the big thing because it was the first thing on TV that talked about being gay. I don't know if you remember it or not, and so that kind of opened us up, you know, because we were very interested in that and so forth. But when I went to work at Wusthof, there was this gorgeous Italian man who was a respiratory therapist... And when I'd see him in the cafeteria, you know stealing glances, never talking to him personally or anything. And so time went on and I had just gotten me a, I had just ordered me a new car and I was going into the bank, you know, to get my loan and everything, and I was in my cut13 �off jeans and you know, and I come out of the bank and this car was sitting there and the sun was to my back so I couldn't see who was in the car and he had pulled up and rolled his window down and yelled out at me. So you know, I really couldn't see him. So I walk over to the window and I say it's this guy, you know. And he's like, do you live around here? And I'm like, yeah, a couple miles down in the Atlantic. And he said, well, I just live a few blocks from here, but we'll have to get together, that sort of thing. He had two kids, his wife worked on the base, there was an Air Force base- St Patrick Air Force Base, I think, which was south of Kennedy Space Center, and anyway. So one thing led to the other. And then he showed up as a patient one day for an IVP, which is a kidney x-ray procedure that you did back then with contrast with the kidneys and bladders would show up, ureters and bladders would show up. So he came in for that. So we got real friendly while I was doing the procedure on him. That happened just before I ran into him at the bank, but anyway he made arrangements for me to come over when his wife was working. That was my first affair of sorts. The guy was nuts. Toby Jenkins: They usually are. Warren Duvall: First thing he wanted to do, he wanted to move out and he wanted to, he insisted on me telling my roommates that I was gay, which was very hard for me to do because we'd never talked about it. Toby Jenkins: But your roommates were gay. Warren Duvall: Yeah. But they didn't particularly react to that. Roy seemed to be quite jealous of this guy. I can't think of his name right now. I don't think he's with us for several years now, but anyway, so we moved out. He always changes his mind from day to day, and so I didn't know anything to do except run away from him and come back home. At the same time, my mother was complaining that dad was falling off the wagon and that was her excuse to get me back home too. Well, when he found out that I was going to leave, he packed up and came to Oklahoma with me. I can't get rid of this guy. Toby Jenkins: So this was the Italian guy. Warren Duvall: This was the Italian guy. Toby Jenkins: And he had left his wife and his kids. Warren Duvall: At that point, he had left his wife and kids and came to Oklahoma with me. Toby Jenkins: And that wasn't the plan. Warren Duvall: That wasn't the plan. I had job interviews in Oklahoma City and job interviews in Tulsa and one interview in Bartlesville. He was a respiratory therapist. I don't know if I said that. So he interviewed, he didn't have any appointments or 14 �anything, but he interviewed in some hospitals in Oklahoma City, I guess in Tulsa too. He got accepted for a job in Bartlesville was the only place he got an offer to go to work. So that worked for me because he had to go to Bartlesville and I was intending on finding a job in Tulsa anyway. So I found a job at Doctors Hospital at 25th and Harvard. I worked there 27 and a half years for a variety of routine procedures, thoracic procedures, surgical procedures, emergency room procedures. CAT scan came along. I worked with CAT scans in the early stages, so I really didn't like it. That's more one-onone with my patients. CT was, you know, you stuck them in this unit out there and you were in a separate room. Warren Duvall: So back in Tulsa, did that relationship end? Warren Duvall: Yes, but it was very difficult because I could not get rid of him and he kept coming down and said, I'm gonna move in with you. And I'm like, no, you can't do that. So when he saw that I wasn't going to do that, he called his wife, sell the house and came up here. So she came up there. Of course, he was always wanting me to come to their house on the weekends and things. She was very nice, very innocent, and from a big family. They were, you know, they were fromToby Jenkins: Was she aware that he had relationships with men? Warren Duvall: No, she might've suspected. She never asked me directly. But he was very belligerent to her once she came there and they bought a house and everything. But he kept trying to come back into my life. So, you know, I just, it was a very uncomfortable situation. And I would take him down to my parents. He wanted to go down... that thing. And the first time I took him, my brother was down in the field and they were cutting greens, I think, spinach. Warren Duvall: And mom said, oh, we'll take him down. Jerry's down there. Made him see a farm, you know, what goes on on a farm. So I took him down there. Well, I swear to God, he was so self-conscious of whether he was butch or not that he literally had a friend film him walking to see if he swished too much or, I meanToby Jenkins: So he had a lot of internalized homophobia. Warren Duvall: He had all kinds of….He was, I don't know, he was bipolar, I think. Toby Jenkins: Now, did you take him down with you, did you come out to your family as gay? Warren Duvall: No, no, no, still had not come out. After him, I decided, well, I'm not straight. I mean, I'm not gay, because this is nuts. So I tried, I came back to Oklahoma and tried to come to Tulsa, tried to play the straight game for two or three more years. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, that almost broke you, huh? So you're in Tulsa. Let's speed along, because that was all fascinating to me. So you're in Tulsa, and this relationship, you got away from that. Did you begin to connect with the community here? Warren Duvall: Well, so my friend that we went to Florida with, he stayed down there for that two or three years, and then he finally came back and was in the Muldrow, 15 �Roland , Fort Smith area. He was a school teacher, but he wound up going to EMT school down in Florida and worked for their ambulance and worked in the hospitals and things like that, even though he had a, he was a math major. He came back. Toby Jenkins: Well, you're in Tulsa. I'm just curious, when did you start connecting with the gay community? Warren Duvall: Okay, he showed up, and we went to an adult movie theater downtown on Main Street on about 5th, and the Taj Mahal was around the corner. Well, I knew that that was a gay bar, even though I was still doing the straight scene. But anyway, he brought a fellow school teacher who was obviously a feminine gay man. They wanted to go to the Taj Mahal, and I was like, oh no, because my thought was every family member and every person I work with is gonna be outside the door watching me walk in this gay bar. I mean, that was my mindset. I was so scared to do it, so they were kind of put out with me. But anyway, that was kind of the opening. Then this girl came to work at Doctors, a fellow tech. She was a really attractive, pixie girl, and we got along really well, and then she got what wound up being her roommate, a job there in radiology as an aide, getting patients and helping running in the dark room, things like that. So I got really, we got closer and closer and ran around with them and everything, and slowly got around to the point that we were both gay. So lesbians brought me out. They took me to, it was before Queen of Hearts on Main Street. It was, what was it, it was a drag bar. What was the name of that one? And they took me to another bar that was on Utica and what's that, 4th Street. There was a TG&Y there, and now it's a County Medical, some kind of department there, but right on the north side of the parking lot was this bar that was a gay bar. That's the first place they took me. So we go up and we sit down at the bar, and here's these two or three floozy gals in there, and this black one walks up and sits down on the barstool beside me and strikes up a conversation with me, and I'm just talking to her, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and she goes about her way. And one of the girls leaned over and said, you know, that's a drag queen, don't you know that? Toby Jenkins: Thought they had you in a lesbian bar. Warren Duvall: I just thought she was a, you know, a floozy gal, you know, trying to put the make on me. Toby Jenkins: So did you ever start going to the bars by yourself? Warren Duvall: So this continued, you know. I would talk to them while going out, and they, of course, there was a lesbian bar on Memorial between 15th and 21st. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember it? Shotzi's, or the Club? Warren Duvall: That was the later name of it. Toby Jenkins: The Club. 16 �Warren Duvall: The Club, yeah, the club. It was really a girls' bar, but the guys would go in early there. Back then, you know, it was liquor by the wink, you know, you had a brown bag, you know, and so forth, but, so they'd take me there, and they had to introduce me to some guy here, and nothing happened, you know, and one night I wanted to go out, and, uh. Susan said, just go out on your own. Oh, I'm afraid to do that. Well, you know, come to the Club, you know, some of the girls in there and everything. So I did. I struck out on my own and I was just having my drinks and smoking and that sort of thing. And I got this other mixed drink. I'm like, I didn't order that. Well, there's a gentleman over there that bought you this drink. And I said, well, who is it? And I looked around and there's this big old guy over there and he was just grinning. So that was my first introduction to the gay community. Because he introduced me to all his gay friends and I became part of their group. Back then, gay Tulsa was kind of cliquish. I mean, if you weren't in a group, you know, you didn't have much of a gay social life. Toby Jenkins: Now, did you eventually end up with a relationship? I mean, you… Warren Duvall: Well, for once I came out and that was a whole new experience for me and everything. So I was partying hard, meeting lots of tricks. And at some point along about the time it was about like 1980 or so, there was this little one paragraph article in Tussle World about these gay men in New York City and L.A. that were coming down with this strange disease, you know. Of course, that caught my attention. And then you start hearing more and more rumors about that. And I thought in my mind, I need to settle down with someone. Well, about four of us went to Oklahoma City for one weekend and I met this cowboy down there, Roger. And we were at one of the bars up on 39th Street, a smaller bar. Of course, it changed, and had many names. I don't remember what it was called back then. But anyway, he caught my eye when he came in and we were back in the pool area, playing pool. So he caught my eye and I commented on him to my friends. Well, why don't you go up there and talk to him? Well, I'm very shy, very shy back then, especially gay shy. But finally I got my nerve up and went up there and he was sitting there by himself. It was early. There was just us and him. All that was in there at that time, the bartender. So I sat down with him at a high table and we struck up a conversation and people came in, people came in. And he kept, he would say, well, I'll buy us another round if you'll go get it. So I'd go get it. So I sat there with him for two or three hours and finally he said, I'm gonna have to go to the bathroom. He says, I've got a cast on my leg. And he did get a cast on his leg. So he'd gotten into a wreck. He was a druggie. He had a wild gay life in the Navy on board ships that I knew nothing about. Anyway…. Toby Jenkins: So you all ended up together. Warren Duvall: So we ended up together that night and the next weekend I called him and I went down. And some of my friends were there too. Anyway, we went out to dinner and he was high as a kite. And anyway, we spent the night at the new gay club at the hotel in Oklahoma City, the Habana Inn. I haven't been there since the new owners, but. 17 �So we ended up, he came up the next weekend and I took him out to Zebra's to play some, about 33rd and Yale. Toby Jenkins: Zippers. Warren Duvall: Zippers. And anyway, before the weekend was over, he told me, well, you know, I'd like to have a permanent relationship with you. And he was starting to, he had just went through a treatment program at the VA, but he was falling off the wagon and the reason he broke his leg was because heToby Jenkins: Sobriety program. So y'all ended up together. Warren Duvall: Right. And he was from Oklahoma City. So he moved to Tulsa with me. And that was 82, early 82. Toby Jenkins: And how long were y'all together? Warren Duvall: 10 years. Toby Jenkins: You said that you were in the medical field and you had seen the notice about some of the first AIDS patients in New York. What did that begin to look like in Tulsa? Warren Duvall: Well, it was, you know, it started to be a general conversation when you went out, you know, guys talking about it and so forth. And of course you got more and more information. And then the first gay patient we got was this big old man. You know, like any big straight man. I mean, no sense of being gay. Of course, the rumor was he was in ICU coming in sick. And the rumor was this guy's gay, you know? And so he was, I don't think he got out of there. I think he died in the hospital after a couple of weeks. So he was the first AIDS patient that I dealt with. Toby Jenkins: What was the hospital’s…Y'all were dealing with your first AIDS patient. What were the general policies? Warren Duvall: Well, I mean, they just put him in isolation. So just a typical isolation patient, you know, you had to get on up and mask up and everything. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, you were afraid to work with him. Didn't really know, did you? Warren Duvall: Didn't know very much at all. But he was very, he wasn't a stereotypical type gay guy. You know, and so our staff couldn't believe that that man was gay, you know? But anyway, that was my first time working with a gay patient. Toby Jenkins: When did you get involved with the community, the gay community, and their response to AIDS? Warren Duvall: Okay, when the guy bought me the drink at the club, I got acquainted with his circle of friends. I would be with him. We'd go over here and do that and go out to dinner and all the things you do. And one weekend, we took a long weekend and went to the [horse] races in Arkansas. Hot Springs is that down there? I can't think of which Springs it is. Anyway, we rented a Winnebago, and there's about eight or nine of us in this Winnebago. So we drove down to Eureka Springs. 18 �Toby Jenkins: Hot Springs. Warren Duvall: Hot Springs. So we drove down there. Toby Jenkins: To the horse races. Warren Duvall: Yeah, spent the weekend at horse races and things. So that's how I got acquainted with the gay people and going to parties and going out and so forth. Toby Jenkins: But when did you get involved with, like I know we have this picture here, you're in the Follies. When did you begin to get involved with the gay community's response to people with AIDS and your caregiving? Warren Duvall: Well, once I read that article, I'd be concerned about my own health, you know? Which is, like I say, when I decided I needed to settle down with one person, so, and Roger came along and I settled down with him. So, a year or so later, might have been two years, we'd been together for some time. This guy showed up that was a past friend of his in Oklahoma City and he was a scrub tech that had come up to work with one of the doctors that worked at Doctors Hospital, a plastic surgeon. But anyway, we got acquainted with him. He was an old friend of Roger's and he got really sick. And we went up to see him and his mother was there and he was from Ardmore originally. So, he was in the latter stages, you know, his skin and bones and she had had problems with so-called his friends taking things from his apartment and stuff like that. And so, she gave us the 9th degree and then when she figured out that, you know, we were coming to visit him, his friends, she was very happy that we were there. And so, we would spend some time with him and, you know, he was at the end, and said he had diarrhea all the time. And like I say, he was skin and bones. And I would clean him up, you know, because I'm a medical person, you know, you gotta keep cleaning people up. He didn't survive more than a week from the first time we went in to see him, I don't think. And then, they took him, so he was, I guess he was at Hillcrest. They took him to the old Moore's facility on 14th and Peoria, somewhere around there. Well. The funeral home. The funeral home. After he died. Well, the big funeral home is south of the cemetery off of Memorial. They were used to taking care of AIDS patients. They were scared to death. They took him and put him in a garage out back when his family came to see his body. Then they had to drag him back in. But that's how scared they were. He had AIDS, they stuck him out there, butt naked with the sheet over him. So, we went through all that rigamarole and everything with his family and him. So, that was a good introduction. That's when we went down and joined SHANTI. Toby Jenkins: Okay, and tell us what SHANTI was. Warren Duvall: Well, you were assigned an AIDS buddy. Of course, we were a couple, so we were doing it together and we went through the training program. That's when I met David Parsons. He was going through the, he had just started out. I can remember David, I can remember distinctly, we're sitting there in this classroom setting with just 19 �the two of us right then, and then David walks in, real friendly, how are you, gets his chair, drags it right up in front of us, and... yadda. He was going through, or he was starting one, I think. I think he was starting one because, anyway, so that's how we met David. So, I knew David off and on, over time, and got better and better acquainted with the times. So, we got assigned this guy, and then we split up. Uh, and thenToby Jenkins: You and Roger ended your relationship. Warren Duvall: We did pre-Christmas in 91. Anyway, so, you know, we started taking this guy out and doing things with him and everything, and then we split up. Roger stayed here for a while, and then he moved to Oklahoma City with this little nelly guy. I'm like, Roger always thought he was butch and everything. He got caught in drag driving, and they took him to the hospital, and his parents came in, and he was in the emergency room in drag. Toby Jenkins: But So you had the AIDS patient and Roger and you had split up, so did you continue to get more involved in SHANTI? Warren Duvall: Well, SHANTI had gone by the wayside pretty much, because, you know, one person couldn't handle an AIDS patient by themselves, so they came up with—what's that called? Toby Jenkins: RAIN [Regional AIDS Interfaith Network}. Warren Duvall: Okay. Anyway, that took over. I continued—Roger and I split up, but I continued to— Toby Jenkins: Be a part of the RAIN team. Warren Duvall: To be a part of this guy. Toby Jenkins: This patient. Warren Duvall: This patient, yeah, and Roger moved off to Oklahoma City. Toby Jenkins: So what was it like in those days? You're doing the RAIN team, and you're a medical— Warren Duvall: No, I'm not doing the RAIN team. I didn't even join it. But I was still taking care of this guy Toby Jenkins: So the community—you were a medical professional, so you were seeing it from a different angle. And then you were seeing the community's organization. We've had multiple people who've interviewed and talked about that period. It was a difficult time, because people, as you said, you'd be diagnosed, and then you would be gone quickly. There was no treatment to save your life, and yet some people would get sick, and they would survive and still would be living with it, you know, 30, 40 years later. What was the mood in the community, and you as a medical professional, what was it like? I mean, was it— 20 �Warren Duvall: Well, it was very cautious. People became much more concerned and cautious about their sexual habits. Toby Jenkins: Right. So it transformed the communities. Warren Duvall: It definitely transformed the community. You still, I mean, you still socialized and so forth. But the worst thing was you would have, let's say, you'd have a social friend that came down with it and there would be no time until they were gone. So you went through that over and over and over and over and over. Toby Jenkins: How many funerals do you think you went to during the time of the pandemic? Warren Duvall: Probably a dozen. Toby Jenkins: Of close friends who died? Warren Duvall: Socialized friends. I never had a really super close friend until much later. I had a friend that came down with it much later after they were starting to have some successful treatments. Toby Jenkins: We've talked about this. You've talked about how you liked to dance and things like that. Were you involved in what we call the Follies and some of the fundraising efforts? Warren Duvall: I was in the, Roger and I, in the picture. We did the Follies the first two years, did that dance routine with that group there. I think it was almost verbatim, there was only one or two that weren't in that picture that was in the first year. Then I stayed active with Linda and them, but I didn't do any kind of active work on stage with them until her final year, the 10th year, and of course, Roger was long gone by then. Toby Jenkins: What were the Follies? It was an annual fundraising event for those living with HIV and AIDS. Linda started it. Toby Jenkins: Linda Stevens? Warren Duvall: Linda Stevens. Toby Jenkins: Who's recently deceased. Warren Duvall: I didn't know that. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. We just lost her in the last— It's been almost three months now. Warren Duvall: Oh, man. I wanted to get to see her. I went to their house one time to knock on the door, but nobody came. Man, I knew she was in really bad health, but I didn't know that. Toby Jenkins: You talked about you being involved with some other affinity groups, community organizations. You mentioned you were part of the Drillers Bears. Was this a socialization group for men who identified as bears? Warren Duvall: Yes. 21 �Toby Jenkins: Tell us kind of what a bear is. Because you've talked about this a lot in your interview about the flamboyant, effeminate, all the different— Warren Duvall: Right. To me, Roger and I's first introduction to it was when we were on vacation in Florida, and we were in Orlando and there was a gay hotel there in Orlando [Parliament House], kind of like the one in Oklahoma City. So we went there. Anyway, there's this group of big guys, big burly guys, and they were in this bar that was next to the hotel, and I think it was called the Blue Moon, maybe. It was kind of a Levi Leathers kind of bar. So there's all these guys in there. My conception was that a bear was a hairy man. Toby Jenkins: More masculine, more hairy, working class. Warren Duvall: Beer gut, whatever. Toby Jenkins: Wasn't the typical Hollywood depiction of slender sleeves, muscle-lift gay guys. Warren Duvall: Yeah, just the common guys. Toby Jenkins: So you became a part of that group, Drillers Bears here in Oklahoma. Warren Duvall: Well, I became part of that. That was after Roger and I split up, but the initial group in Orlando, which I think, I was told that was the first time that a group of guys had met and formed a bear group. Of course, and then it spread nationwide and worldwide in a very short period of time. So I was active in that, and then we would go to gay rodeos all over, in Oklahoma, Arkansas, and actually, Roger and I split up when I went to Arkansas, but Missouri and stuff, and then once he left, I got acquainted with Rick Poston, and he was trying to form a new gay rodeo division in Tulsa because you weren't a real close part to the OGRA, particularly. Toby Jenkins: And OGRA stands for what? Warren Duvall: Oklahoma Gay Rodeo Association. Toby Jenkins : And that was basically based in Oklahoma City. Warren Duvall: Yeah, it was statewide. Toby Jenkins: And so when you say gay rodeo, for our viewers, explain what that means, gay rodeo. Warren Duvall: A gay rodeo, well, it was a typical rodeo version, the gays' version of a rodeo. Toby Jenkins: So people who like Country and Western music… Warren Duvall: Western living, and like to ride horses and do all the things, and there were different organizations and you were all affiliated with IGRA. 22 �Toby Jenkins: Our viewers might be familiar with the explosion of interest when you had Urban Cowboy come out and Gillies, and where country and Western were people who were not farmers or cowboys or ranchers. They dress as cowboys and go out in twostep dancing. So this is theWarren Duvall: Right, kind of a popular thing. Actually, the first time I started going back to what I grew up in, it was still in the straight bars. And then after I was going to the straight bars and dancing, I started my gay paraphernalia, up again. Then it morphed right into the gay scene real quick. So I just, I returned to my roots, still in straight life and then morphed into the gay scene. Toby Jenkins: So you weren't playing or role-playing the role of a cowboy because, for our viewers, there were gay country and western bars, and there'd be country and western bar nights, country and western nights at our clubs, but it was kind of almost like a culture where you dressed up in cowboy boots and wranglers and you looked the part, but you had never been near a horse or a rope-to-cow. Warren Duvall: Common name for it was Drugstore Cowboys. Toby Jenkins: What'd they call it? Warren Duvall: Drugstore Cowboys. Toby Jenkins: Drugstore Cowboys. But you actually were a part of the group that became, what was it called here in Tulsa, the? Warren Duvall: It was Sooner State Rodeo Association. Toby Jenkins: So it was. Warren Duvall: We were the first organization that separated from an existing state organization, the IGRA. And we were the first that split our state. Toby Jenkins: And so these organizations would have been all over the country. Warren Duvall: Yeah, they're all affiliated with the IGRA, which is International Gay Rodeo Association. So we applied for a new membership, and so that involved us going to meetings and things. I think it was probably the second annual meeting that I went to, and that was, let's see. We got accepted, not exactly sure what city we were in, but anyway, we were the first to put in to separate from, to be separate from OGRA, Oklahoma Gay Rodeo Association, which it was basically, it was a state organization, but it was 90% Oklahoma City metro area. Warren Duvall: Once they accepted us, there were two or three other groups in different states that were right there wanting to put their application in. So I don't know where, then I got separated from the Sooner State Rodeo Association kind of on a political situation. Toby Jenkins: So this group came together, and one of the things they did is they hosted a yearly rodeo. Warren Duvall: Yes. 23 �Toby Jenkins: Just like you would have, which was very common in our culture here in the middle of the country. Warren Duvall: And it didn't have to be a big rodeo. It could be in somebody's barn. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and what would y'all do at the rodeo? What kind of entries would there be? Like, name off the different things. Warren Duvall: Oh, well, calf roping. Toby Jenkins: Barrel racing. Warren Duvall: Bulldogging, barrel racing, and there's another rehab pole, line of poles. You didn't do this in the straight. You need to zigzag through them. I can't remember that term. They had bull riding, horseback, bareback, saddleback, and then they did more kinky, campy things, just fun things. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, they'd have drag queens perform. Warren Duvall: Yeah, they had, what do we use the goat for? You had to tie a ribbon on the goat or something. But anyway, there were fun things to do, but the other was semiserious. The livestock class of livestock we did, it's about university-type stock. Maybe you'd say high school and university. That's probably on the same level. There's not many high schools, but there are high schools in Oklahoma that have a rodeo program. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so you would have these big rodeos that would be a full-blown rodeo, but it would be imprinted with being LGBT proud, being out and proud. So for our viewers, it must have meant a lot to you to be able to return to your childhood and your experiences and blend those two together. Warren Duvall: Back when we were just a little kid... the rodeo in Fort Smith every year, which was a big thing. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, I will say this. I want to make sure our viewers are aware of this. This was an extremely successful, what I would call community crossover. Every gay rodeo that I personally attended- and I've been to Oklahoma City, I've been to them in Wyoming, Texas- half the crowd is straight. Yeah, it was a very good environment for people outside of the community. Allies like these gay cowboys would have their families there and you allowed straight people to enter the competitions. Warren Duvall: As I remember right there weren't any restrictions on it. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, it was a very good way for people to mix with the community and get to know us. Did you enjoy being a part of that? Warren Duvall: Very much so, yeah, I was very active and held health officer positions and then one year I was a rodeo coach. I was a rodeo director, which was the first rodeo we had here which actually was sponsored by the OGRA. And I had told you earlier that Rick and his boyfriend at the time started putting this Sooner State Rodeo Association together. So since we were working to separate and since Rick got that in Tulsa from his membership and officer in the OGRA in Oklahoma City, they were not happy with him 24 �but he'd already signed up and everything. Our first rodeo here was sponsored by the OGRA but the Sooner State did 90% of the involvement in putting it together and so forth. They might disagree with that percentage. But even before we became an active, accepted member in the IGRA, we put the rodeo on- I think that was 2003,, maybe 2002.. Toby Jenkins: And hosted the international here in Tulsa. So the International Gay Rodeo Association came here in Tulsa and your Sooner State Rodeo as a part of the Oklahoma Gay Rodeo Association. Y'all served as the host. Warren Duvall: Yeah, well, OGRA served as the host, but the majority of the staff came from the Sooner State. Toby Jenkins: People came from all over the country, didn't they? Warren Duvall: Yes, right, and it was a three-day event. Toby Jenkins: When did you get involved with Oklahomans for Equality? I mean, I know, would you have cowboys and horses in the pride parade? I mean, was this something? Warren Duvall: Yeah, sometimes, yeah, and we put on a float every year, back when I was active in it. And, yeah, I think I remember some people were. .. Toby Jenkins: And when did you get connected to this Oklahomans for Equality year at the Equality Center? Warren Duvall: Probably not until I, really not until I came back in 2019, just before COVID. I came back at the end of October and by early 2020. Toby Jenkins: Because you had gone home and lived on the farm for a while… Warren Duvall: Right, yeah, for 13 years now my mother had died, and my brother, who had a home on the farm. My mother had given him three acres to build him a house. He was in bad health too. He started early in life with cardiac problems. He had a bypass at age 40 or 42. But anyway, she had died in April of 2004, and he died in May of 2005.. So my oldest brother and my sister- there's four of us, two boys and then my sister, and I was the youngest, and I was nine years younger than our oldest brother. Toby Jenkins: So we're kind of coming towards the end, so I just want to, so you move back to Tulsa and then you begin to get involved here at the Equality Center. Warren Duvall: With the two senior citizen organizations. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Prime Timers. Warren Duvall: And SAGE, which we got more into. Toby Jenkins: For our viewers, kind of tell us what Prime Timers is, what kind of organization is it for? Warren Duvall: Prime Timers is an organization for gay, bisexual men. 25 �Toby Jenkins: Older. Warren Duvall: 50 and older, typically. If you were a partner of someone and you were much younger, you could be a member because of your relationship to your partner that was a member of the group. Toby Jenkins: And then the SAGE, it was called, which is Services Advocacy for Gay Elders, what SAGE stands for. But eventually, SAGE's program began to be called the OkEq Seniors Program, and so you began to get involved in that. Now, earlier in our time together, you talked about David Parsons, who you first met at a training session, with SHANTI, where you're gonna take care of people living with HIV-AIDS. So he's been your friend all of these years. Warren Duvall: Yeah, and we've gotten closer and closer after Roger and I split up. I think Roger and I used to have a Christmas party every year, and I think after we met David, I think he came to a couple of those. This was before his partner Al. But anyway, Roger and I had bought a condo out on 51st between Memorial and Mingo. It's called Idlewild II. Toby Jenkins: Well, you've been connected with David Parsons all of these years. Warren Duvall: Roger and I split up. I got left with the condo because he wanted to sell it right away and it was worth, it priced for 15,000 less than what it was. And I said, well, I'm not gonna take that loss. So I ended up taking over the whole thing, which put me in a financial bind until I sold it. So, early on, I had moved downtown when I had come out and actually met another married man and had a short affair with him. That's when I pulled the floor off of having any kind of relationships with married men. Not a good thing. Because they just don't, they don't work out basically because they're doing a double life and you're kind of always the secondary part of that relationship. Well, that was my experience with it and most people that I've talked to, same thing. Toby Jenkins: So you were getting involved with the seniors program here and you and David, you'd bring David to the program. Warren Duvall: Yes, well, when I sold the condo, I moved just off of downtown on 17th and Carson. You know, what I call the Jetson building. We were on the south side of the street behind the Mansion. In fact, the duplex I was in was owned by the owner of the Mansion, what I call that law firm that had that Mansion back then. So I sold the condo and lived there for four or five years and that's when mom died. And my brother was, I had just moved back to the farm. Well, the reason I did that was because I became physically unable to keep my job when I ruptured my L5-S1 and I'd already had my first hip surgery and had ruptured my neck, moving a patient. So I had so many medical things going on with me and it just became too hard for me to work and do my job properly and everything. So I wound up, initially I planned on semi-retiring at 57 and I wound up retiring at 57 because of my physical injury. So, I was just a few blocks from David and Al. So, you know, we intermingled and it was over because, you know, they had, after he met Al, you know, they had gatherings at their house and dinners and parties and things like that. So, we came closer and closer and then I moved off for 13 years. And when I came back, which was the end of 26 �October, 2019, I had called David and I would come up and we'd go out to dinner when I was on the farm. And I'd come up and go to doctor's appointments up here. I would get in touch with them and, you know, we'd go to eat and sometimes I spent the weekend here. So, we became pretty close before, in fact, I was at David and Al's house when I got the call that my mother had died. So, we became good friends. Some of my friends came down when I first moved to the farm. Some of them came down and about five or six of them came down to see, you know, where I was living and what was going on down there. David came, I don't know if Al came or not, probably so, they got a big kick, because they wanted me to show them around the country side. And like I said, as a crow flies, I was a mile from the river, but I was about three miles from it to get to it from either the upper side of the dam or below the dam, which was Locking Dam 14 on the natural part of the Arkansas down there. So, we had about, well, we had about 90 acres of farmland. 75 or so of it was good, productive farming land where you grew different crops. Typically, over the years it changed, but in recent years, pretty much in that part of Oklahoma you grew corn one year, next year you put in winter wheat and when the winter wheat came off, you combined that and then you put in soybeans. So, you had three crops in two years. That's what it was, all the, it was already that when I moved. Toby Jenkins: And so, these boys would come down here to see that. Warren Duvall: So, I'd take them down into the corn field and you go down this road, it's actually an extension of the county road, but the county didn't take care of it anymore and we were on one side and there's another owner on the other side of this road. But, we got down to a 90 degree turn and they had just put up street signs out in the country down there and there was a street sign in the corner of the corn field. They got the biggest kick out of it. They couldn't believe that there was a, of course, it didn't take long for them. .. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, that's called urban sprawl, you know. So, I know that you, and we're gonna wrap this up, you, I know you would, you and David would come to Sage because your good friend, he was diagnosed with dementia and for several years, you were his ride or die. You took him to Prime Timers. Made him. Took him everywhere I went. And allowed him to be able to continue to participate. Warren Duvall: Right, be active. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and so, I was always so impressed with that. Could you maybe speak to that? Why did you feel that was important? Warren Duvall: Well, when I came back, I initially called him and he was okay then and then COVID came along and I didn't, basically, I only had one friend that we spent, you know, in contact and together but I didn't really call anybody during that first year or so. And so, when I called him back after COVID, I left a message and then I got a message from him and he seemed very excited to talk to me, you know. When I got the message, I called him back and he proceeded to tell me that he had had this, as David said, I 27 �drank a quarter of wine one night and went to bed and the next morning, I couldn't get out of bed. Couldn't do anything. And he thought it was all to do with the quart of wine. And I said, well, that and many others helped you get to where you are now. But he told me that the doctors had told him that he had Alzheimer's, dementia, Alzheimer's is another form of dementia. But they specifically said, I, observing him in the beginning, I didn't really think he had, because it gets misdiagnosed a lot, Alzheimer's gets diagnosed when somebody's got another form of dementia. He could no longer drive, he couldn't even ride a bicycle, and he had limitations, but he still had a brain, and he walked daily, walked with his dogs, and then he lost a dog, and he walked with his other dog. So he was just at home all the time, Al's working, so he's, you know, and he can't go places because he can't drive anymore. So I started taking him with me and coming down here and we joined up. I was getting ready to join when COVID came along and he didn't join. After it became where we could get out and get around again is when I came down and joined and brought David down. So I took him to all the meetings and I took him out to eat a lot. I took him down all the trips that I would take down to the farm and had a couple of doctors down in the Fort Smith area that I like so well, like my dermatologist. I go down there. Toby Jenkins: So you kept him active. Warren Duvall: So I kept him busy, and, you know, that was good for me too, because I had not made really good contact with my old friends. I don't know if they're all dead or moved away or what, but I just haven't been able to, just, besides David and Al, there's only one other couple that I've had anything to do with and they seem to be content with retiring and sitting at home. Toby Jenkins: And recently, we lost David. He died. And, um... Warren Duvall: Within the past year, he'd gotten to the point that he really couldn't communicate. You could talk to him and he might, you might ask him something and he would answer you or tell you that he didn't know. Toby Jenkins: So I've always been grateful that you kept him involved. Warren Duvall: As long as I could to keep him involved. Toby Jenkins: I just wonder, as we finish up, this will be my last question for you. You've lived a long life. You've served your country. You've had an active career. You've lived in multiple places. You saw the world. You've lived in other countries. Warren Duvall: Been to the gay games. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so, which is like the gay Olympics. But you saw things change over the last 30 or 40 years. Do you have a message for younger people or people who come after us? Do you have a message for the future? 28 �Warren Duvall: Be active as you can. Be aware that the political situation in this country is bad and gonna get worse for the LGBTQ group. I mean, they've already singled out the trans, you know. That's just the first step. If the public doesn't succeed in getting this group out of the White House and the Senate and Congress and the judges, I mean, it's just, never in my life would I ever assume that that would happen in the United States. It just never entered my mind. It concerns me greatly. So my advice is you fight it and you fight it and you never give up. Never give up. For many of us, it took a lot to come out and it was a lot. Some gay people knew all their life that they were gay. Now, I can look back and know that I always was, but I didn't know that. I didn't know what gay was for many years. Probably first started getting some conception of it in high school. I remember this group of future farmers. We'd gone into Fort Smith. We were probably trying to do some fundraisings or something. And this one guy, I don't know how they got on the subject, blowjobs, this one guy. He said, well, you know, these homosexuals, and he probably said faggots. He says, you know, their sexual organs are in their throat and that's why they blow each other on that. And I'm like, oh my God. He was a weird son of a bitch. Toby Jenkins: But that's the homophobic culture we live in. Warren Duvall: My first thought was, the sexual organs in my throat? Toby Jenkins: Well, this has been very helpful and very informative. And thank you so much for your service. Warren Duvall: And I have one other person I want to talk about briefly. Bart Elwell. He's a guy about my size. Pretty bald, wore a beard a lot. He had a degree in clothing design. He specialized initially in children's clothing. He was from the Oklahoma City area. He grew up in Moore. And I met him much later in life. This is after Roger and I had split up. And I'd seen him at the Silver Star dancing. He was a good dancer. But anyway, I met him again when we were forming the Driller Bears. He came to that, and we started talking, and getting acquainted, and became really close friends. And he came down with HIV late. I mean, he came down with two, three years after we'd gotten acquainted and been really good friends. So eventually, he came down with it. And I won't go into any detail. And just that he became positive. He worked just all kinds of fabric. And he never could get after his initial job. He came to town for this little children's clothing factory. That's how he came here. And then it got closed down, and couldn't compete with the international market, I guess. But we became closer and closer. He's the only one that would come down and spend the weekend with me, all the 13 years I was on the farm, after the initial guys came down the first couple weeks I was there. But he started, oh, about my last two or three years on the farm. So prior to October of 1919, he was a Christmas baby. My dad was born on Christmas Eve, and I was born on December 20th. And my half-brother was born on December 10th, I think. Lots of friends and had other friends and family that were December babies. 29 �I tried to get in contact with him over the Christmas holidays and didn't hear from him. Sent him a birthday card, didn't hear from him. And so finally, I got a call from him. I think it was probably early January of, I don't know how many years ago that was, about four or five. Anyway, he proceeded to tell me, oh, last year that I would come up and I'd go out to lunch with him, he kept complaining about stomach problems. He couldn't keep food down. He couldn't eat, but just a little bit, blah, blah, blah. And this went on, and they did tests on him and everything. And finally, they told him on Christmas Eve of that year, I'll say 2020, I'm trying to think, was that before? No, he died before I moved up here, I think, the disease was pancreatic cancer. Well, by the time they diagnosed it, it was almost already stage four. From the time he called me after, I didn't hear him remember the Christmas holiday, they told him the day before Christmas that he had it. So he went down to his family for Christmas Day to tell them that he had pancreatic cancer. But anyway, he went down like a rock. The time he called me and the time I came up the very next time, he was just, when I went to pick him up, he was just skin and bones. Didn't have a hair on his head because he was in chemo and everything. He didn't have a hair on his body. Wasn't very hairy anyway, he had a nice beard. But I wouldn't have known him. You know, you could have told me he's gonna be coming down the sidewalk here in 30 minutes and he could have walked right by me and I wouldn't have known it was him. That's how much he was just skin and bones. And he had a long-term relationship lover who was also HIV positive from down in the Dallas metro area. They were together, that long distance relationship for about the last four or five years of his life or more, maybe. But anyway, it was just a shock Okay, so he was never financially real secure because of his career and trying to stay in and so forth. But anyway, he wound up kind of being the office manager of an independent children's clothing store that was out at 81st and Harvard in that little shopping center and it's on the southwest corner. So he worked there the last few years. He gave me this picture of a cowboy that he had picked up at a garage sale or something and it was in this horrible frame. And this cowboy's bare-chested. He's got his saddle over his shoulder. Really good picture, watercolor. He said, I want you to have this because I know you'll do something good with it. So it's a great picture. I had it professionally framed and everything. Spent $300 just getting it framed. I was gonna take it to him so he could see what I did with it one weekend. And then I had to back out. The next weekend, by the time we got there, his lover had called me to say he had died. I hated it he never got to see it because he would have been so happy and proud that he gave that to me. Toby Jenkins: And that beautiful story is a reminder…. Warren Duvall: One of my very best friends ever and I've had lots of good friends over the years. Toby Jenkins: We can't delay, we can't put off. We gotta seize the moment and see the moment. All right. Warren Duvall: Tomorrow may be too late. 30 �Toby Jenkins: Well, thank you so much. Warren Duvall: Thank you. Toby Jenkins: This has been beautiful. We've covered areas that we've never covered. We talked about things that I don't think we've ever talked about in any other interviews. Warren Duvall: I could talk to you for two weeks. Warren Duvall: I mean, I've had an interesting life and amazing experience. Today I came through it. Toby Jenkins: This has been Warren Duvall on February the 10th, 2026. Warren Duvall: Thank you very much. Toby Jenkins: Thank you. Addendum: 1989 Follies Review Cast. Follies was a fundraiser for AIDS Programs. Warren is second from the right. 31 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Warren Duvall Interview Subject The topic of the resource Warren Duvall Oral History Project Interview from February 10, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Warren Duvall, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 10, 2026 Description An account of the resource This interview with Warren explores his life story, from growing up on a family farm in Oklahoma to his military service and his journey as a gay man. Warren shares personal insights into his experiences with sexuality, military service during Vietnam, and navigating life in Oklahoma and Florida. This interview provides a deep insight into the life experiences of a long-time LGBTQ+ community member, covering personal stories, community involvement, and the evolution of LGBTQ+ rights and health issues over decades. <strong>Video available for on-site research at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center.</strong> 2026 activism AIDS available at Center bear clubs coming out community gay rodeo healthcare HIV/AIDs interview LGBT history military OKEQ Oral History Project Oklahoma oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript seniors Toby Jenkins transcript Tulsa video Vietnam Warren Duvall https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/c9595acfdf635bd17f3530d01ce54e06.pdf 537c53efc893da073a9a55ec451d16cd PDF Text Text ____________________________________________________________ Flash From The Past by Tim Turner And help from others... When you look at some of the photos from the Playroom Club era, 1978 to 1986, it almost seems as though everyone was happy and gay during that period in time. From what I remember, we were. We worked hard and we played hard, like most Americans at that period in history. The end of the Free Love Era certainly was not evident in the gay club scene in the late 70's. AIDS was pretty much unknown, at least in our part of the world, life was good...spirits were high, there was uncharted territory. Around 1970, I got to hear great stories of the first known gay bars in the Tulsa area. Tropical Gardens, as far back as the Early 40s, operated by two sisters in an old filling station; The Blue Note Lounge located on North Denver during the 40s and 50s; The Blue Haven opened November, 1948 by the 'much loved' Producer, Activist and Entrepreneur, the late M.C. Parker. M.C. Parker and Tim Warren would later cultivate and produce the largest, most spectacular Oklahoma Gay Event in history, the Miss Gay Oklahoma Pageant at the Camelot Inn. (Tim Warren, his life partner forty years his younger, was later murdered and his body discovered in Mohawk Park. The murder was never solved, as well as most gay murders in our city as I recall. ) M.C. was a promoter, he contracted sponsorship by major brand names such as Phillip Morris and Halston and achieved an estimated attendance of over 2000, and that's not including the number of baptist protesters outside the hotel. The Camelot was sold out for this event for one of the few times in it's history, it was said, and was never the same afterwards. The entire event was, to say the least, amazing... especially for it's time in history. We could talk about it for hours over cocktails sometime. The Milwaukee Tavern, a 40s and 50s lesbian bar located at about 15th and Cincinnati; Bishops Bar, 40s and 50s located downtown with a mixed crowd, but a popular gay hangout; The St. Moritz 40's and 50s located on South Main which was THE place to go and was closed down after a move, in anticipation of Liquor by the Drink... which didn't pass. Little Mexico, late 50s, owned by Thurman Glynn. The Doghouse, owned by Bob Johnson. The famous Skoo-Bee-Do Club owned by Paul Scott who, rumor has it, met with a curious and untimely death in Hawaii. Then there were the clubs I have personal memories of. At 20 years old I actually had no idea there were nightspots that were frequented by crowds of gays. I actually thought that there might be at least ten other gay people in the whole State of Oklahoma. That was, until I ventured into Friends Lounge at 3rd and Utica, owned by Tracy McLaughlin, aka Tony. Tracy has always been somewhat of my mentor as far as the club business. He ran a tight ship and a good bar. He worked hard and loved giving the kids a safe place off the streets. Friends Lounge was famous for it's Friday night drag shows and was a coming out place for hundreds over the years. Unfortunately, much of the potential profits went for court costs and attorney fees over time. Frequent police raids and obvious, blatant incidents of harassment were much too �frequent and it was my first personal experience of bigotry, political and social intolerance. I was amazed to realize that at the same time I had discovered a multitude of others of the same sexual orientation, I was also unknowingly transcending from a safe, accepted majority into that of an often misunderstood and shunned minority. The battle, for me, had begun. Tracy did a lot toward gay acceptance in Tulsa and for Oklahoma. Most of which today's generation will never realize. But Tracy never wanted the spot light, he only wanted to be left alone and given an opportunity to make a living and provide a place for gay people to go. Equal treatment to straight bars. I will never forget, with amusement, one time when Tracy was to appear in court on a trumped up charge of some kind, I asked him if he had a good attorney and he told me he didn't need one. When I asked why not, he told me to show up in court and see for myself. Tracy showed up in court with five stunning, outlandish, drag queens and the case was thrown out before they had a chance to parade to the witness stand. The Judge didn't want his court room turned into a circus, although the police had already taken the first step towards that end. Friends lounge would later move West down third street to be called Tracy's, then The New Edition and later sold to Jimmy and Roy and became the new location for the Tool Box, which moved from downtown where Renegades is still located. Around the same era, things were hopping downtown. (The Fruit Loop as it was called.) Friends Lounge was less than 5 minutes from the famous pink pool table in the Zebra Lounge on Main Street, owned by Tom Oliver, which was just around the corner from the Taj Mahal, owned by Norma Peterson and later purchased by the late Pete Longenbaugh and Robert Kowalski (aka Sugar). Sugar was the victim of a brutal knifing inside the Taj Mahal after hours....also unsolved. The Fruit Loop was notorious for hustlers and parking lot parties for 'after clubbers' and those too young to make it past the I.D. check at the clubs. The police seemed to just allow it for a period of time then would randomly decide to clamp down... but the revelers would return and the cycle would continue. About the only dance club, The Gala at 11th and Lewis, (Just under the Meadow Gold Milk Sign), eventually to be re-opened as Tim's Playroom Club, (Yours Truely) had been closed for about 5 years, and that left Mary and Jody's The Club" on Memorial which had a very strict door policy and was a good distance from the downtown action. "The Club" was probably one of the most versatile gay/lesbian mixes next to the Gala of all times. We all partied together, both inside and out. I saw the vacancy for a dance club and had the itch to get into the gay club business myself. I eventually met a new acquaintance who's uncle (uh huh) purchased a huge brick 13,500 sq. ft. masonry building at 911 S. Main, which was very close to the action and would fill the void in the club scene. With a lot of ambition, sweat, learning experiences and a little borrowed money, Tulsa's grandest, most beautiful Art Deco Disco to date (one of the first) opened with a frenzy. I'm thinking that it was about 1974. Bright red walls and bar lined with metal flake padding, mirrors out the ying yang and a beautiful Art Deco stage with Silver Lamé curtains, The Queen of Hearts Club and Cafe would be short lived, but it introduced Tulsa to a new era of national advertising, dance clubs with professional sound and light shows, DJ's, pageants, national entertainers like the Laughing Kahunas from Hawaii and Sami Joe Cole known for her hits, "Tell me a Lie" and "It Could Have Been Me", and brought hundreds more out of the closet in Tulsa and OKC. It also began to draw more attention from the city fathers which meant more media coverage, more cops....more lawyers. �After the Queen of Hearts closed, it became New York, New York for a while and then was purchased by Evelyn White who named it The Fountain of Youth, then The 911 Club, then Papillon. After Evelyn sold it to Bill Oliver, who closed the Zebra after some 20 years, it became Caruso's. People loved the club, as did I, and didn't want to let it go. Carusso's was later demolished for parking space along with Mary's, our favorite wino bar which was snuggled between Queen of Hearts and the Tiffany Club at 915 S. Main, owned by the late Jim Smith, Robert Wilson and some other idiot. Anyway, at least my first 'dream club' became established in the minds of many. I then dabbled with Tim's Anything Goes Club, a plush conversation cocktail lounge at 58th and Peoria in the rear of the center and gave it up as "too quiet" after a short time for the opportunity to manage the New Plantation Club with some guys from Dallas, at 51st and Yale. Eventually, through trial and error and with a tip from a well known and much appreciated Tulsa Newspaper sports writer, I opened the type of bar that I was most comfortable in.(Trashy Classy, as some called it, very much like Tramps is today!) He pointed me to a location that had been a well known gay hang-out for close to twenty five years (Including the next seven) and had been closed for the previous five years. Thus, becoming one of Tulsa's most controversial yet fun, notorious and nationally known gay clubs ever, Tim's Playroom Club. Eventually we joined in with the OHR Blueboys and helped gay softball achieve fame in Oklahoma. We had national invitational tournaments in Tulsa as well as traveled to Houston, Dallas, Kansas City , OKC and Wichita. It really helped put Tulsa on the gay map. We once played in one of the nations largest invitational gay tournaments in Houston among a field of twenty two teams from places such as New York, San Francisco, Atlanta and won the Most Spirited Team (Miss congeniality) award. I still think it's because we had the best-looking team there and we made more friends in the bars. Team Photo Doubling in size in just a few years, The Playroom would offer a diverse crowd a variety of entertainment and events. From a Cruise Bar at noon to a wild, thumping Dance bar at night Tulsa got it's first feel of Cerwin Vega Earthquake speakers in a bar that pounded away at the fifty year old brick walls causing them to crumble. It also got a close up look at dozens of Tulsa's Police Officers who constantly toured with flashlights in their hands and disgust and smirks in their faces. It was an ongoing battle. We had it set up so that whichever of the staff went to jail for whatever trivial or trumped up reason, Team B would contact the attorney to bail out Team A and reopen immediately. During the seven years of operation there were more than fifty arrests of myself or staff members and resulted in NO CONVICTIONS. Imagine that. Eventually, with the help of KOTV Channel Six who did a thirty minute segment on Tulsa gays, most of which was filmed in my bar and called "Strangers In The Night" (of which they no longer recall or can find a copy of in their archives), and aired it during prime time, a face to face discussion with then Tulsa Police Chief Jack Purdy and a meeting with a nationally recognized attorney who could not represent us because of conflicting interests, but made a strong recommendation to the Police Department Internal Affairs that they cease the harassment and change their policy and treatment toward gays or face another Stonewall or worse, a lawsuit. Things got much better for a few years. Some policy changes were eventually made and the attitudes seems to have improved somewhat over time. Although there were still questions, such as the tragic and unbelievable unsolved multiple murder of manager Robert Kowalski (aka Sugar)and another, which inadvertently closed the downtown version of the Taj Mahal. There �were several other unsolved gay murders in Tulsa before and after that incident. (another story) Pete tried moving the Taj to 11th & Lewis behind the Playroom, in the old Zebra Club, but I don't recall that it lasted too long. It surprises most to hear that there were as many as thirteen active, open gay bars in Tulsa during this time frame and most were successful. Great clubs with another complete history behind them, such as Zippers at 33rd and Yale owned by the late John Willis and of course the legendary Bamboo Lounge on Pine Street which has reopened a couple of times since the infamous late Gene Curnigan.Tulsa Mining Company, Seekers Choice, Over the Rainbow and Dante's, just to name a few, but none bring back the memories of the early days like the old downtown scene as seen in many other larger cities. Due to the eventual adoption of the much misunderstood at the time, and misconstrued by the public, Liquor by the Drink, I realized that the end of the club business, as I knew it, had come. Gone were the back-door bottle club days. The bulk of the profits would now be re-directed from the owners and investors to the government coffuers, using a common method known as overtaxation and regulations.....or progress, as some would call it. But that is yet, another story all together. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Collection] Oklahoma LGBT+ History Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br /><br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document ____________________________________________________________ Flash From The Past by Tim Turner And help from others... When you look at some of the photos from the Playroom Club era, 1978 to 1986, it almost seems as though everyone was happy and gay during that period in time. From what I remember, we were. We worked hard and we played hard, like most Americans at that period in history. The end of the Free Love Era certainly was not evident in the gay club scene in the late 70's. AIDS was pretty much unknown, at least in our part of the world, life was good...spirits were high, there was uncharted territory. Around 1970, I got to hear great stories of the first known gay bars in the Tulsa area. Tropical Gardens, as far back as the Early 40s, operated by two sisters in an old filling station; The Blue Note Lounge located on North Denver during the 40s and 50s; The Blue Haven opened November, 1948 by the 'much loved' Producer, Activist and Entrepreneur, the late M.C. Parker. M.C. Parker and Tim Warren would later cultivate and produce the largest, most spectacular Oklahoma Gay Event in history, the Miss Gay Oklahoma Pageant at the Camelot Inn. (Tim Warren, his life partner forty years his younger, was later murdered and his body discovered in Mohawk Park. The murder was never solved, as well as most gay murders in our city as I recall. ) M.C. was a promoter, he contracted sponsorship by major brand names such as Phillip Morris and Halston and achieved an estimated attendance of over 2000, and that's not including the number of baptist protesters outside the hotel. The Camelot was sold out for this event for one of the few times in it's history, it was said, and was never the same afterwards. The entire event was, to say the least, amazing... especially for it's time in history. We could talk about it for hours over cocktails sometime. The Milwaukee Tavern, a 40s and 50s lesbian bar located at about 15th and Cincinnati; Bishops Bar, 40s and 50s located downtown with a mixed crowd, but a popular gay hangout; The St. Moritz 40's and 50s located on South Main which was THE place to go and was closed down after a move, in anticipation of Liquor by the Drink... which didn't pass. Little Mexico, late 50s, owned by Thurman Glynn. The Doghouse, owned by Bob Johnson. The famous Skoo-Bee-Do Club owned by Paul Scott who, rumor has it, met with a curious and untimely death in Hawaii. Then there were the clubs I have personal memories of. At 20 years old I actually had no idea there were nightspots that were frequented by crowds of gays. I actually thought that there might be at least ten other gay people in the whole State of Oklahoma. That was, until I ventured into Friends Lounge at 3rd and Utica, owned by Tracy McLaughlin, aka Tony. Tracy has always been somewhat of my mentor as far as the club business. He ran a tight ship and a good bar. He worked hard and loved giving the kids a safe place off the streets. Friends Lounge was famous for it's Friday night drag shows and was a coming out place for hundreds over the years. Unfortunately, much of the potential profits went for court costs and attorney fees over time. Frequent police raids and obvious, blatant incidents of harassment were much too frequent and it was my first personal experience of bigotry, political and social intolerance. I was amazed to realize that at the same time I had discovered a multitude of others of the same sexual orientation, I was also unknowingly transcending from a safe, accepted majority into that of an often misunderstood and shunned minority. The battle, for me, had begun. Tracy did a lot toward gay acceptance in Tulsa and for Oklahoma. Most of which today's generation will never realize. But Tracy never wanted the spot light, he only wanted to be left alone and given an opportunity to make a living and provide a place for gay people to go. Equal treatment to straight bars. I will never forget, with amusement, one time when Tracy was to appear in court on a trumped up charge of some kind, I asked him if he had a good attorney and he told me he didn't need one. When I asked why not, he told me to show up in court and see for myself. Tracy showed up in court with five stunning, outlandish, drag queens and the case was thrown out before they had a chance to parade to the witness stand. The Judge didn't want his court room turned into a circus, although the police had already taken the first step towards that end. Friends lounge would later move West down third street to be called Tracy's, then The New Edition and later sold to Jimmy and Roy and became the new location for the Tool Box, which moved from downtown where Renegades is still located. Around the same era, things were hopping downtown. (The Fruit Loop as it was called.) Friends Lounge was less than 5 minutes from the famous pink pool table in the Zebra Lounge on Main Street, owned by Tom Oliver, which was just around the corner from the Taj Mahal, owned by Norma Peterson and later purchased by the late Pete Longenbaugh and Robert Kowalski (aka Sugar). Sugar was the victim of a brutal knifing inside the Taj Mahal after hours....also unsolved. The Fruit Loop was notorious for hustlers and parking lot parties for 'after clubbers' and those too young to make it past the I.D. check at the clubs. The police seemed to just allow it for a period of time then would randomly decide to clamp down... but the revelers would return and the cycle would continue. About the only dance club, The Gala at 11th and Lewis, (Just under the Meadow Gold Milk Sign), eventually to be re-opened as Tim's Playroom Club, (Yours Truely) had been closed for about 5 years, and that left Mary and Jody's The Club" on Memorial which had a very strict door policy and was a good distance from the downtown action. "The Club" was probably one of the most versatile gay/lesbian mixes next to the Gala of all times. We all partied together, both inside and out. I saw the vacancy for a dance club and had the itch to get into the gay club business myself. I eventually met a new acquaintance who's uncle (uh huh) purchased a huge brick 13,500 sq. ft. masonry building at 911 S. Main, which was very close to the action and would fill the void in the club scene. With a lot of ambition, sweat, learning experiences and a little borrowed money, Tulsa's grandest, most beautiful Art Deco Disco to date (one of the first) opened with a frenzy. I'm thinking that it was about 1974. Bright red walls and bar lined with metal flake padding, mirrors out the ying yang and a beautiful Art Deco stage with Silver Lamé curtains, The Queen of Hearts Club and Cafe would be short lived, but it introduced Tulsa to a new era of national advertising, dance clubs with professional sound and light shows, DJ's, pageants, national entertainers like the Laughing Kahunas from Hawaii and Sami Joe Cole known for her hits, "Tell me a Lie" and "It Could Have Been Me", and brought hundreds more out of the closet in Tulsa and OKC. It also began to draw more attention from the city fathers which meant more media coverage, more cops....more lawyers. After the Queen of Hearts closed, it became New York, New York for a while and then was purchased by Evelyn White who named it The Fountain of Youth, then The 911 Club, then Papillon. After Evelyn sold it to Bill Oliver, who closed the Zebra after some 20 years, it became Caruso's. People loved the club, as did I, and didn't want to let it go. Carusso's was later demolished for parking space along with Mary's, our favorite wino bar which was snuggled between Queen of Hearts and the Tiffany Club at 915 S. Main, owned by the late Jim Smith, Robert Wilson and some other idiot. Anyway, at least my first 'dream club' became established in the minds of many. I then dabbled with Tim's Anything Goes Club, a plush conversation cocktail lounge at 58th and Peoria in the rear of the center and gave it up as "too quiet" after a short time for the opportunity to manage the New Plantation Club with some guys from Dallas, at 51st and Yale. Eventually, through trial and error and with a tip from a well known and much appreciated Tulsa Newspaper sports writer, I opened the type of bar that I was most comfortable in.(Trashy Classy, as some called it, very much like Tramps is today!) He pointed me to a location that had been a well known gay hang-out for close to twenty five years (Including the next seven) and had been closed for the previous five years. Thus, becoming one of Tulsa's most controversial yet fun, notorious and nationally known gay clubs ever, Tim's Playroom Club. Eventually we joined in with the OHR Blueboys and helped gay softball achieve fame in Oklahoma. We had national invitational tournaments in Tulsa as well as traveled to Houston, Dallas, Kansas City , OKC and Wichita. It really helped put Tulsa on the gay map. We once played in one of the nations largest invitational gay tournaments in Houston among a field of twenty two teams from places such as New York, San Francisco, Atlanta and won the Most Spirited Team (Miss congeniality) award. I still think it's because we had the best-looking team there and we made more friends in the bars. Team Photo Doubling in size in just a few years, The Playroom would offer a diverse crowd a variety of entertainment and events. From a Cruise Bar at noon to a wild, thumping Dance bar at night Tulsa got it's first feel of Cerwin Vega Earthquake speakers in a bar that pounded away at the fifty year old brick walls causing them to crumble. It also got a close up look at dozens of Tulsa's Police Officers who constantly toured with flashlights in their hands and disgust and smirks in their faces. It was an ongoing battle. We had it set up so that whichever of the staff went to jail for whatever trivial or trumped up reason, Team B would contact the attorney to bail out Team A and reopen immediately. During the seven years of operation there were more than fifty arrests of myself or staff members and resulted in NO CONVICTIONS. Imagine that. Eventually, with the help of KOTV Channel Six who did a thirty minute segment on Tulsa gays, most of which was filmed in my bar and called "Strangers In The Night" (of which they no longer recall or can find a copy of in their archives), and aired it during prime time, a face to face discussion with then Tulsa Police Chief Jack Purdy and a meeting with a nationally recognized attorney who could not represent us because of conflicting interests, but made a strong recommendation to the Police Department Internal Affairs that they cease the harassment and change their policy and treatment toward gays or face another Stonewall or worse, a lawsuit. Things got much better for a few years. Some policy changes were eventually made and the attitudes seems to have improved somewhat over time. Although there were still questions, such as the tragic and unbelievable unsolved multiple murder of manager Robert Kowalski (aka Sugar)and another, which inadvertently closed the downtown version of the Taj Mahal. There were several other unsolved gay murders in Tulsa before and after that incident. (another story) Pete tried moving the Taj to 11th & Lewis behind the Playroom, in the old Zebra Club, but I don't recall that it lasted too long. It surprises most to hear that there were as many as thirteen active, open gay bars in Tulsa during this time frame and most were successful. Great clubs with another complete history behind them, such as Zippers at 33rd and Yale owned by the late John Willis and of course the legendary Bamboo Lounge on Pine Street which has reopened a couple of times since the infamous late Gene Curnigan.Tulsa Mining Company, Seekers Choice, Over the Rainbow and Dante's, just to name a few, but none bring back the memories of the early days like the old downtown scene as seen in many other larger cities. Due to the eventual adoption of the much misunderstood at the time, and misconstrued by the public, Liquor by the Drink, I realized that the end of the club business, as I knew it, had come. Gone were the back-door bottle club days. The bulk of the profits would now be re-directed from the owners and investors to the government coffuers, using a common method known as overtaxation and regulations.....or progress, as some would call it. But that is yet, another story all together. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [c. 1990] Tulsa Gay Bar History by Tim Turner Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Tim Turner Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Tim Turner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tim Turner Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource About 1990 911 Club Art Deco Disco Bamboo Louge Bishops Bar Blue Haven Blue Note Lounge Bob Johnson Camelot Inn Caruso's Dante's Doghouse Evelyn White Fountain of Youth Friends Lunge Fruit Loop gala Gene Curnigan Jack Purdy Jim Smith John Willis Little Mexico M.C. 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For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [c. 1998-2001] Silver Star Pageant Videos https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/6da3185e3c9411346acb45f174dd3c31.jpg 98c26387f8be6f490a4a4fa8804ee6c2 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/98b5266fc83c9948564198c691c566c6.mp4 0c0146cc3f558b39b5d63d4dae7ac832 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/062906c82060eb043f35e0daa45468ba.pdf 569c6056020b1a38f0eec877c89425b5 PDF Text Text Jimmy Flowers Story Subject Jimmy Flowers Description From Julie Tucker - Trainum, August 2019 - Jimmy Flowers was one of the very first members of the AIDS Coalition in Tulsa. he was a young man when he was part of Stonewall and in his interview he talks about Stonewall. jimmy died in the mid 2000s. he was interviewed so we could share his story at the YST support group "Tulsa Youth Discovering Diversity." Creator Julie Tucker-Trainum, Youth Services of Tulsa Date Interview was conducted in 1999 or 2000 Original Format VHS Duration 1 hour 20 minutes [00:00:00] Julie Trainum: And we're here to talk to a fellow by the name of Jimmy Flowers, and Jimmy is 41. He told me his age, so I hope he doesn't mind me telling the tape. And all the things that you're seeing on these tables are things that Jimmy has gathered up over the years, specifically about the gay movement. And all of these things are very, very telling, but probably the best person that can tell is Jimmy himself. And he's been real interested in talking with us and with the young people to let them know what he went through and the things that he saw. [00:00:36] Julie Trainum: So, Jimmy, how are you? [00:00:38] Jimmy Flowers: Well, so far so good. [00:00:40] Julie Trainum: So far so good? [00:00:41] Jimmy Flowers: Yeah. [00:00:41] Julie Trainum: Can you begin a little bit with your history and saying what happened with you when you were a youngster? You can maybe talk specifically about when you first understood that you were gay and what happened with your family. [00:00:59] Jimmy Flowers: Well, number one, I've always known that I was gay. Number two, I was about 11 years old, and what happened was that I was kissing a guy underneath the staircase. He was 14 and I was 11, just kissing. And then my father, of course, he was the supervisor of the building. And I didn't realize he was home, and he caught me underneath the staircase, kissing the guy. He dragged me by the hair and sort of beat me, slapped me around, saying it wasn't natural, it was disgusting, it was a sin, and everything like that. [00:01:45] Jimmy Flowers: And my mother started yelling at me and, you know. Then took me to the school psychiatrist. This is going back to 1966. [00:01:54] Julie Trainum: And you were about 11 at the time? [00:01:56] Jimmy Flowers: I was about 11. I can't remember exactly every date or detail, but I was about 11, 11 and a half maybe. And what happened was that they thought at that time that if you were gay or lesbian, if they catch you at an early age that you would become a heterosexual. And so they put me in a mental institution for almost two and a half, three years. And in that time, they tried to come to us that we were sick, 1 �that it wasn't natural, that we were sinners of God. And they also, some of the things they did was very disgusting. [00:02:40] Jimmy Flowers: They forced us to be in the same room with another lesbian young woman. We were both nude. They thought if we saw each other's body that we would be attracted to each other. But unfortunately it didn't work that way. And then they showed us pictures of videotapes of men and women having sex. [00:03:04] Julie Trainum: And this is still when you were a youngster? [00:03:08] Jimmy Flowers: Oh yes. They thought if we saw the actual lovemaking of heterosexuals making love, intercourse, that it would change us to become heterosexuals. We were constantly pumped in our heads that we were not gay. At that time, we didn't know the word gay. We used the word fancy because it wasn't offensive to us. We didn't like the word homosexual. We didn't like the word homo or faggot or queer or bull dyke or lesbians. So therefore we used the word fancy because it wasn't too offensive. Then, in this time, they showed the male tenants, which was the guard. [00:04:00] Jimmy Flowers: Forgive me if I get a little bit emotional because some of the things that happened in the mental institution, you wouldn't believe unless you saw it yourself. I was given Thorazine and child treatment to become straight. And I kept on saying I was born gay. It's a little bit hard to explain because I like the word gay. I said I was born to be a fancy. And they brought a priest in since they thought I was on the religious side. They brought a priest in. And the priest said to me, and I'll never forget it. [00:04:48] Jimmy Flowers: He said, you are a sinner of God and it's wrong. It's not natural. It's against nature. And I just kept on saying I was born this way. [00:04:57] Jimmy Flowers: And then he slapped me, and I got a little bit angry, and I took Grant's collar from his neck, he was a Roman Catholic priest, and I said how dare you call yourself a man of God, if you are. That's pretty courageous for a youngster. I was about 11, 11 and a half, 12 maybe. And some gays and some young lesbians, they thought they were safe, and they committed suicide because they could not change. [00:05:32] Jimmy Flowers: And they made a stand up while they took a 14 year old lesbian young woman, and laid her down while the male attendants, she wanted to shoot me, while the male attendants forced us to watch while they were having intercourse with her. They thought by us watching, all the gay males we lined up, and the young gay females lined up on each side. They thought that they would make us to be straight, and they were constantly crinkling into our ears that we were sick. [00:06:31] Jimmy Flowers: So there was a lot of reason for young gay and lesbian kids to not come out, and to not say, and not let other people know because of the possibility that this would happen. So anyway, the young lesbian woman, a few months later, I don't want to go into every single detail because it would take hours and hours. The young lesbian woman, she was pregnant, and she committed suicide in her own room, and she hung herself. And I discovered her because we were friends. They had the females on one side, and the males on the other. [00:07:20] Jimmy Flowers: And I was the one that found her, and I will never forget that. Then there was a gay, we started a hunger strike in the mental institution, which was called Primory and King's Park State Hospital. And then there was another one called King's County. And during that time, there was this gay psychiatrist and gay therapist that was helping us getting out of the place. Of course, we had to lie and say we were straight, and that we enjoyed having sex with women, and the women enjoyed having sex with men. [00:08:06] Jimmy Flowers: And I promised myself, once I get out of that place, that I would never lie again. And I haven't lied since then, and I'm not going to now, and I never will until the day I die. Let's go ahead and cut there for a second. After I got out, it was about 1968. Did you go back to your parents? Yes, I went back to my family. And things were still, I had to pretend that I had a girlfriend, and then went to high school. During that time I was put away, I didn't have no school at all. And then I was kicked out of high school for trying to start a gay movement. [00:08:52] Jimmy Flowers: And that was back in 69, but we didn't call it a gay movement, we called it the Pansy Movement. Now I can laugh at it, but then it was serious. Was that in Brooklyn? No, at that time we lived in the Bronx, Bronx, New York. Then my mother and father, they found out I was still gay, they kicked me out 2 �of the house. I was about 14 and a half years old, or 14 or 14 and a half. I roamed the streets, lived from one person to the next. [00:09:25] Jimmy Flowers: And then there was hundreds, literally hundreds of young lesbians and young gay men that was actually kicked out of the streets for being gay. Because their family couldn't deal with it. And, um... [00:09:43] Jimmy Flowers: Then there was Spanish in society, and they wanted us to be good little boys and girls and not to kiss in public or to hold hands in public. They were using the word flaunting our gayness. And then we were all young. There was lesbians, there was gay blacks, there was gay Puerto Ricans, there was gay religious lesbians from all walks of life that was kicked out in the streets because of being gay. [00:10:17] Julie Trainum: It's a real diverse crowd out there. Real diverse. [00:10:21] Jimmy Flowers: Yes. The young gay blacks was considered a disgrace to their race if they were gay. A lesbian woman wasn't a real woman. They used slogans like, oh, what you need is a good man. And they used to use the word revise to the gay men that what you really need was a good woman. And we used to sock it back to them. I said, no. What you need is a good woman, and what we need is a good man. And so one guy, I remember one guy would say, you're not a real man. I said, how do you know? I said, did you have one? Of course, I'm a man's man. [00:11:10] Jimmy Flowers: And so therefore, if you haven't had a man, then you're not a man. And the lesbians used to sock it to them on their level too. Well, you're not a real woman until you have a woman, you know. [00:11:24] Julie Trainum: So a lot of the young people who were kind of on the street had to make up their own philosophy of living. [00:11:31] Jimmy Flowers: Right. [00:11:31] Julie Trainum: And philosophy of being gay and what that felt like. [00:11:34] Jimmy Flowers: Right. I'm not ashamed of it. I had to do some hustling to be able to hustle, and I was a go-go boy at the Stonewall. [00:11:45] Julie Trainum: What does that mean, go-go boy? [00:11:47] Jimmy Flowers: A go-go boy dancer. I should have brought my uniform, but they called me the gay midnight cowboy. That was part of my act. I had a black cowboy hat, purple shirt with white fringes, purple hot pants with silver sequins and cowboy boots. And of course, I was on the platform, and that's how I made to put food in my stomach. And at that time, I had to hustle because who was going to give a 14-and-ahalf-year-old person, young person, a full-time job or housing? And a lot of young lesbians and young gays had to do that. [00:12:26] Jimmy Flowers: But we protected each other, and we stood in a group. And we also protected the old ones that were taking us in, and we were not abused. We were not forced to have sex with them. As a matter of fact, there used to be a joke about me because I felt guilty for taking money for sex. So while they were sleeping, I used to get out and clean their apartments. So there used to be a joke going around saying, take the redhead because you get two for the price of one. Then came the raids of the bars constantly. Now we're getting into 69. [00:13:13] Julie Trainum: And this is in Brooklyn? [00:13:15] Jimmy Flowers: No, Manhattan. Greenwich Village. Then we started arguing with the police. There were entrapments of police undercover. There were police officers undercover taking license plates, numbers of cars that was in the neighborhood because they presumed that everybody in that section of the neighborhood were all gay, all lesbians. They were raiding the lesbian bars constantly, and the gay bars. We wasn't allowed to hold hands in our own bars. We wasn't allowed to sit close together, more than 12 feet. [00:13:56] Jimmy Flowers: And plainclothes cops used to come in and make sure that we did not do these things or slow dance together. There was also the gay rich was being blackmailed by plainclothes cops. 3 �[00:14:12] Julie Trainum: The gay, say that again. [00:14:12] Jimmy Flowers: The gay rich. [00:14:14] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:14:14] Jimmy Flowers: Because they had money. [00:14:16] Julie Trainum: I see. [00:14:16] Jimmy Flowers: And if they were caught in the section and the plainclothes cops caught them in that area, they just assumed that they were automatically gay and they would call up their boss and tell him that they were gay and they wouldn't have a job, they'd be fired. [00:14:29] Julie Trainum: I see. [00:14:29] Jimmy Flowers: And then at that time, there was lesbians that were beaten up, gay men that was found in the Hudson River that was dead. With their thing cut off, found in the Hudson River. And then at that time, we had signs on the bars that said, enter in your own grips, you may be arrested. Some lesbians was raped by male undercover cops. [00:14:58] Jimmy Flowers: Years later, we found out those license plates that they had, which was over 100,000 license plates they had, was going to the FBI. What license plates were those? Lesbians and gays and people that was parked in the Greenwich Village area. [00:15:17] Julie Trainum: Okay, so they would take that information, the cars parked in the village area and send it to the FBI? Right. [00:15:24] Jimmy Flowers: At that time, that's what they did, and they called it a scare tactic. [00:15:30] Julie Trainum: Scare tactic. [00:15:31] Jimmy Flowers: Yes, to keep gays and lesbians away from getting together and uniting. [00:15:39] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:15:39] Jimmy Flowers: At that time, we started having arguments with Mattachine Society. [00:15:46] Julie Trainum: Tell us a little bit about what that organization is. [00:15:49] Jimmy Flowers: Well, Mattachine Society started after World War II, about 1945, and they did a lot of things. They did help out a lot of people through courts, and they helped try to get a gay rights bill passed, a lesbian gay rights bill passed, secretly behind the scenes. [00:16:12] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:16:12] Jimmy Flowers: They believed and dressed in ties and suits, and women, lesbian women, had to wear high heels and dresses and be very conservative. [00:16:24] Julie Trainum: What was their theory behind this dress and doing things behind the scenes? [00:16:28] Jimmy Flowers: Well, their theory figured that not let the public, the religious groups, or the straight community know what was going on in the world. They wanted to try to pass the bill of rights for lesbians and gays secretly behind the scenes, behind the doors. [00:16:49] Julie Trainum: So as to not make waves? [00:16:51] Jimmy Flowers: Right, not to make waves, and Mattachine Society were the older people at that time. Remember, the ones that lived on the streets, the homeless, lesbians and gays, and young gays, we were all young, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 years of age, 19, 20, some was even 13, and the youngest was 12 and a half years old, believe it or not. And then the older ones that was part of Mattachine, they were in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 4 �and 60s, and they used to come out at us for holding hands in public. Don't do that, the cops will get you arrested. [00:17:40] Julie Trainum: Okay, so that was the beginning of some of those arguments you were saying? [00:17:43] Jimmy Flowers: Yes. [00:17:43] Julie Trainum: So they did not like the fact that you were much more out in your appearance? [00:17:49] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:17:49] Jimmy Flowers: They said you ruined everything that we were trying to accomplish, and we turned around and we said, well, this is 1969, and you've had since 1945 to do something, and it's time for a change, and the change is now. Well, the cops came and raided the Stonewall, and 200 of us took to the streets. Yes, there was drag queens there, there was lesbians, there was gay blacks, gay Puerto Ricans, but we were not all drag queens, let me just make that very clear. We were from all walks of life, all colors. [00:18:29] Julie Trainum: Has that been something that they've tried to state over and over, that it was just the drag queens that rioted? [00:18:36] Jimmy Flowers: Yes. [00:18:37] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:18:37] Jimmy Flowers: Even, I got to admit, even the gay press keeps on saying drag queens. It just didn't happen like that. What has happened to be to Stonewall was incidents of the raiding of bars, being put away for being gay, entrapments, license plates being taken, beating up of lesbians and gays, dead bodies of gay males being found in the Hudson River, harassment, blackmail of the gay rich because they paid off the cops because they were afraid to lose their jobs. Lesbians were being raped by plainclothes cops, beaten up, and they were forced to fight back. [00:19:25] Julie Trainum: So people, in a sense, have had their fill of the harassment and the hatred, so that when that particular bar was raided... [00:19:35] Jimmy Flowers: It wasn't just that particular bar. [00:19:37] Julie Trainum: Was it not? [00:19:38] Jimmy Flowers: It started... See, all the bars in that area was being raided like every weekend. [00:19:44] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:19:44] Jimmy Flowers: But, the Stonewall, we're the ones that came out of the Stonewall and we said, enough is enough, we're going to take the streets now. [00:19:57] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:19:58] Jimmy Flowers: And that was the word gay. And we started using the word gay. A lot of people, even some of the gay people themselves, don't like to use the word gay. They don't use the word homosexual. Well, we name ourselves gay. [00:20:13] Jimmy Flowers: Homosexuality, faggot, queer, fruit, homo, pansy, bull dyke, lesbian, all those names were labeled on us by society. The word gay, we took as being proud. And the word lesbian, as proud as being a lesbian woman. So then, then we start taking into the streets. And we started turning over police cars and we started dancing in the streets and we started yelling out gay rights now. And I remember this big black guy, about six foot four, something like that, kicked up a paddy wagon and turned it over. [00:20:59] Jimmy Flowers: And three lesbians pulled over the paddy wagons and the best fighters, I gotta admit, was the drag queens and the lesbians. And, but people like me too was there too. We were, I was the one that was underneath the paddy wagon as they were pulling the gays and lesbians into the paddy wagon, I was underneath the paddy wagon punching the cops between the legs. And then as they were going out, the lesbians, 5 �gays were running out of the paddy wagons. Jim, you were back there when I was a little girl. Well, you know, at that time, you did what you had to do. [00:21:41] Jimmy Flowers: And about how old were you at the time then? I was about 14 and a half years old, 15 years old. And there were some other gay youth there as well? And that's that one thing we all had in common. We were all young and we were all gay and lesbians. Let's stop there for just a second, okay? Yeah, all right. [00:22:03] Jimmy Flowers: As I was saying before, when they were dragging in the lesbians and gays, I was underneath the paddy wagon punching below the belt of the police officers and the lesbians and gays would run out of the paddy wagon while the cops were going out, you know? Okay, great. And then we started marching in the streets, yelling out gay rights now and this and that. And they would throw gas bombs at us and we had handkerchiefs we wrapped around our faces and we threw it back at the cops. And we was turning over the paddy wagon to the police cars. [00:22:44] Jimmy Flowers: We marched to the 10th precinct, which was the Greenwich Village Police Station. And we marched around there, started singing We Shall Overcome. And then we started marching towards out of the gay ghetto. And that's when everything started beginning. We started marching up 6th Avenue. They knew that we was gonna be on 5th Avenue to St. Patrick's because see, on 5th Avenue was St. Patrick's Cathedral and sinners of God wasn't allowed to be on 5th Avenue. [00:23:16] Julie Trainum: Bless you. [00:23:18] Jimmy Flowers: And so anyway, we started marching on 6th Avenue but we had a plan. And we all ran arm to arm, black, white, young and old. Some of us, most of us was young. And we started doing the can-can. And as we started kicking the lesbians and gays, drag queens, blacks and whites, and yes, even some atheists and Christians, we started doing the can-can and started saying gay rights now, lesbian power now. And as we kicked, the police officers backed away. They took one step back and then we started taking advantage of it. Each night, the crowd grew larger. [00:24:08] Jimmy Flowers: And as we was doing the can-can down the street of 6th Avenue, the cops, they have never faced this situation before. They were scared to death of us. That night, the crowds grew to about 1,000. And we started rowing. And then when we got to 45th Street, cut off on to 5th Avenue, the cops had the barricade of police cars and the lesbians and the gay men and the drag queens and the transvestites. And we just pushed the cars off the streets and just pushed them onto the sidewalks. And then we went right on to 5th Avenue and we started marching up. [00:25:00] Jimmy Flowers: Then they had another barricade. And then we started marching towards St. Patrick's. And as we was doing the kicking in the air and singing all sorts of things, and unite, we stand, fight back now, the cops were backing up and backing up and the crowd just grew larger and larger. [00:25:24] Jimmy Flowers: That night was 1,000 and we started holding hands and marching around St. Patrick's Day, and we started singing We Shall Overcome, and we did it all night long. And then people started saying that homosexuals is taking over the country. There was headlines in the newspapers and everything, it was on the news, and then we started protesting at City Hall. The first protest at City Hall was 1970 for the gay rights. Only 40 people showed up at that time. As the year went by, the crowd at City Hall grew larger and larger and larger. [00:26:17] Jimmy Flowers: The gay and lesbian community started uniting. At one point around 1973, the politicians and the religious groups, the Orthodox Jewish community and the Catholics saying, well there's really nothing about lesbians in the Bible, it's okay to be a lesbian. And what they were trying to do is split us apart and to make us weak, because unity there is strength. So I say to the young ones today, don't let politicians or anybody split y'all up because of politics, because we are in it together and there must be unity. [00:27:06] Jimmy Flowers: Then we started marching towards politicians and we started having sit-ins and we started having sit-ins to go into the City Hall chambers and about 100 of us or 200 of us, and we started singing We Shall Overcome each and every time there was a lesbian gay rights hearing. And then we started having the Lesbian Gay Parade, which was 1970. The very first one was 1970, and we marched from Greenwich Village to Central Park, which by the way was only 9,000 people. Excellent about that. [00:27:48] Julie Trainum: Has there been one every year then? 6 �[00:27:50] Jimmy Flowers: Yes, every one, and last year, the 25th anniversary, lesbians gays from all over the world came. There was people from Switzerland, lesbians and gays from Russia, there was lesbians and gays from Puerto Rico, from Cuba, there was lesbians and gays from Texas and Oklahoma, there was lesbians and gays from Kansas City, Philadelphia, you name it, they were all there. Gays and lesbians from Alaska. [00:28:28] Julie Trainum: How many do you think, in your opinion, were actually in attendance? [00:28:32] Jimmy Flowers: Well, later on when you see the pictures up close. The newspaper says 100,000, but the newspapers always lie when it comes to lesbians and gays marching in the streets. I estimate there was close to one million lesbians and gays, and parents of gays, and friends of gays, and lesbians and gays themselves from all walks of life, from all over the world, was marching because we had three avenues. [00:29:02] Jimmy Flowers: Excuse me, I think it's important at this point to recognize that Jimmy was honored as one of the 15 only survivors from the original Stonewall Uprising, and he was honored this past year during the 20th anniversary as one of those 15,... Oklahoma in that. [00:29:25] Julie Trainum: How many Oklahomans were also in that group? Were you the only one? [00:29:31] Jimmy Flowers: I was the only one. [00:29:33] Julie Trainum: Well, we're proud of you. Let's go ahead at this point and... [00:29:36] Jimmy Flowers: But I wasn't born in Oklahoma. [00:29:38] Julie Trainum: I understand, but we have you now. We'll go ahead and stop the film for a second so that we can get up and take a look. And what we're going to do right now is take a look at some of the mementos that Jimmy has brought. We have an array of t-shirts here, and we're going to listen a little bit about what each one... [00:29:56] Julie Trainum: Where each one came from and so on and anything else that Jimmy can tell us about it. So you want to start over there with the Lambda? [00:30:04] Jimmy Flowers: Okay. The Lambda was the first gay t-shirt that lesbians and gays wore as a symbol of lesbian gay power. There was a little bit of confusion about the Lambda bit because it stood for gay males, but there was a little confusion about that too as well. [00:30:23] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:30:24] Jimmy Flowers: So this was the first lesbian gay t-shirt even though there was some confusion. This one here was about Reagan's time where two guys and we took his slogan and we said breathe my lips and there's two guys kissing. Also we started using slogans like cruise men not missiles. Then there was the gay independent democrats. We started registering people to vote and I have myself registered in New York City over 10,000 lesbians and gay voters, all democrats. [00:31:03] Julie Trainum: So you helped to get people signed up to register to vote? [00:31:05] Jimmy Flowers: Oh yes I did. [00:31:06] Julie Trainum: Excellent. [00:31:07] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:31:08] Jimmy Flowers: This is the t-shirt of the coalition. This was the original lesbian gay flag which I designed it and a lesbian woman made the flag. [00:31:20] Julie Trainum: Cool. [00:31:21] Jimmy Flowers: It was June 1st, 1976. That was the symbol, the first original lesbian gay flag. It stands for unity. This here was the first march on Washington D.C. national wise. There was other marches besides that. There was Madison Society had a group in 1966 marching in front of the White House, but this 7 �was the first national march on Washington with Harvey Milk's name. Then later on, this picture here of me, 1976, I had a t-shirt that said I'm a gay American. And that there came out in one of the gay newspapers. [00:32:10] Julie Trainum: Great. [00:32:11] Jimmy Flowers: This here, later on, there was words mixed up so we started using, we realized that some lesbians wanted to be called lesbians and some wanted to be called gay. So to make everybody happy, we decided to use the word gay and lesbian independent democrats. [00:32:31] Julie Trainum: Great. [00:32:33] Jimmy Flowers: And then here was the first picture of the first protest march at City Hall in 1970. Then comes the American Cypriot Union book around 1975. Then I got a letter from the White House, from Jimmy Carter, from the assistants. And then around 1980, I had a discrimination case against Victor Gonthown, DC-37 in New York, which sexual orientation was passed on AFCIO Union, which they took my case on, which I'm very proud of that. [00:33:18] Julie Trainum: Okay, let me just get kind of a pan shot of some of these things and a view of all the goodies that we have. [00:33:24] Jimmy Flowers: Well, this one, this one here was taken in 1976, I'm a gay American. This one here with the lesbian gay flag, the original one, in front of St. Patrick's Day, saying that we are children of God too. This one here was the first print of the original lesbian gay flag which stands for unity. [00:33:53] Julie Trainum: I like that theme a lot. I like that theme. [00:33:57] Jimmy Flowers: Then here's a pamphlet that we tried to pass in New York City. I was kicked out of a restaurant for wearing a gay t-shirt and they took my case to the human rights, which I won the first gay case in human rights back in 1978. And finally won on paper. [00:34:26] Julie Trainum: Can you tell us a little bit about the Stonewall sash that you're wearing? [00:34:31] Jimmy Flowers: Well, around 1979, Ed Murphy, one of the people in Stonewall, he was a door bouncer at the Stonewall, gave all of these banners to all the Stonewall people that was there. And I've had it since 19... [00:34:49] Jimmy Flowers: 78 something. It was purple and gold, but now it's turning into pink and gold. [00:35:04] Julie Trainum: Tell us a little about your hat. [00:35:05] Jimmy Flowers: Well, my hat has got all the buttons on it about AIDS, be safe, about lesbian and gay rights, civil rights. I'll have a talk and take it off and show you. Boycott homophobia, remember the quilt, silent equals death, stop AIDS, fight back, act up. This is the newest one, Stonewall 25, keep on marching. This symbol of AIDS awareness and over here it says gay rights are civil rights. [00:35:50] Julie Trainum: I love that one. Okay, we need to go ahead and end up this portion. [00:35:55] Jimmy Flowers: Okay. [00:35:56] Julie Trainum: And so what I will do real quick is to, these are pictures of the 25th anniversary of Stonewall. [00:36:03] Jimmy Flowers: Right here. [00:36:04] Julie Trainum: That we're taking in June of this year and some fabulous buttons. [00:36:07] Jimmy Flowers: This one here is I Am All of Us, Harvey Milk. That was printed in 1979. This one here was the first gay button and this was the second one, 1970 and 1970. And then all the other buttons came afterwards. And then we even had a button, boyfriend wanted no experience necessary. Homophobia is a social disease. Then we had this Harvey Milk riot which I will explain later what really happened on that day. 8 �And then we had the pink triangle which gays and lesbians were forced to wear during World War II as in the prisons. [00:36:58] Jimmy Flowers: The gay Jewish, I don't have here a button, but if you was gay and Jewish you wore a yellow and pink star. This one here to sign to the born again Christians. [00:37:10] Julie Trainum: Born again gay. [00:37:11] Jimmy Flowers: Born again gay. [00:37:12] Julie Trainum: Very nice. [00:37:12] Jimmy Flowers: And then there's the teddy bear here with the symbol of the male symbol of gay men. And then we have here of a cat with the lesbian symbol here on the cat. And then we had over here the pink triangle, fight for lesbian gay liberation. And then there was Gay Teachers Unite which came out about 1972. [00:37:38] Julie Trainum: Wow, that's great. We're going to go ahead and end up today's segment. And in a few days we'll get back together and take another look at the remaining memorabilia and finish up Jimmy's story. Hi Jimmy, this is December the 19th and we're back to complete hopefully our session on some of the gay history that you're very familiar with. I think we left off beginning to talk about Stonewall 25 that happened here just last June of 1994. Go ahead if you would and give us your view of what happened last June and what you saw and just go from there. [00:38:19] Jimmy Flowers: Well, number one, it was really beautiful. I found the George Segal statue was put up in the park which was two women and two men holding an armed arm in the park. [00:38:33] Julie Trainum: Was he the sculptor? [00:38:34] Jimmy Flowers: He was George Segal, yeah. It went through the United States and then ended up at Sheridan Square which is in Greenwich Village. And I was part of that. A lot of people was at that time in 1977 when they built the statues of two men and two women holding hands in the park. The Italians got upset and the religious right got upset. Left? [00:39:07] Julie Trainum: Right. [00:39:07] Jimmy Flowers: Right. And they got upset all about the statues. But all there is is that two women is holding arm to arm sitting on the park bench and two guys standing up holding each other with love. Well, I was glad to see that because I collected over 15,000 signatures for those statues. Wow. But I wasn't the only one. Let me put that very clear. I wasn't the only person that was doing it. [00:39:40] Julie Trainum: When did you do this project? [00:39:42] Jimmy Flowers: This was 1977-78. [00:39:44] Julie Trainum: And so you now saw them in the... [00:39:47] Jimmy Flowers: I saw them in the park at Sheridan Square which I was very proud of. [00:39:51] Jimmy Flowers: Finally they got it there. [00:39:54] Jimmy Flowers: Through court battles. They called it freedom of speech. When you show affection towards the same sex. So we used the expression freedom of speech. [00:40:06] Jimmy Flowers: Also, on the day of the parade, which was beautiful, they took up 5th Avenue, 6th Avenue, and also 1st Avenue from the United Nations building. From the United Nations building, there was lesbians and gays from all over the world. From Japan, from China, from Russia, from Italy, from Oklahoma, Texas, Ohio, Philadelphia, California, Boston, Connecticut, Africa. There was lesbians and gays from Switzerland, Italy, you name it, they were there. [00:40:51] Julie Trainum: Sounds like that was the place to get a pen pal. 9 �[00:40:53] Jimmy Flowers: It was beautiful. And the Stonewall led the whole parade, all 18 of us, that was led from the original Stonewall veterans, they called us. I didn't know I was a veteran until the 25th. But, also, from all over the world, over 25,000 ACT UP members marched up 5th Avenue, in front of St. Patrick's Metro, and passed there. And they assembled there, and they started singing, We Shall Overcome. And, of course, then they started marching again. [00:41:31] Jimmy Flowers: On 6th Avenue, over 66,000 lesbians from all over the country, in the United States, and parts of the other world, marched up 6th Avenue to Central Park. We arrived at the park about approximately 11.30am. At 6.30pm, they were still coming into the park, and the parade has not ended. The parade ended coming into the park around 9pm. So, the newspapers always lie about how many numbers there is, especially when it comes to lesbians and gays marching. The newspaper says 100,000, but that's in the pig's eye. It's a lie. [00:42:24] Jimmy Flowers: So, anyway, I, X-Men, and so did a lot of lesbians and gays that was there. XMen, there was 1 million lesbians and gays. We also had straights and gays, women for gay rights, we had parents for gay rights, we had grandmothers marching for gay rights. We had a few members from Mattachine Society that was in it for 36 years, marched too as well. There was about 5 people, I remember, from Mattachine, and they were carrying a sign, 36 years, of 2 women and 1 gay man. That was, as I can remember, from Mattachine Society that was marching. [00:43:16] Julie Trainum: So, that's 36 years of trying to fight for gay rights? [00:43:19] Jimmy Flowers: Oh, that's for gay rights. Okay. From up to last year. Okay. But, there was other gay movements before then. In 1920, Oscar Wilde in England, the case of Oscar Wilde, which by the way, the gay rights bill over there was passed about 45, 40 years ago. And, of course, I can turn around to the religious groups and tell them that see, England did not fall apart. And, the reason, one of the reasons why Queen Elizabeth I, there was no law against lesbianism, but there was laws against gay men. [00:44:06] Jimmy Flowers: Because Queen Elizabeth I believed that women don't do such things. So, therefore, there was no law against being a lesbian, only against being a gay male. Because men do do those types of things. Right. Okay. That's what they said. And, we all know that's a lie. Also, going back, now we're going to go back to 1970, 73. [00:44:37] Julie Trainum: Okay. [00:44:37] Jimmy Flowers: 1970 was the Gay Activist Alliance. After we did the Stonewall, we started realizing we must stop fighting in the streets. And, start protesting peacefully and ordinarily matter. [00:44:48] Jimmy Flowers: We did, sometimes we had kiss-ins, holding hands, walking the streets, but by groups. Sometimes two or three hundred would have a kiss-in on the steps of St. Patrick's or on the steps of City Hall to show the public that here we are, we're not going to hide our affection, our love, and our tenderness to be towards each other. Because, see, gay is not just sex, as most people think that it is. Being a lesbian or being gay is not sex, it's the way of life, it's the way of love, it's the way you were born, it's the way you are. [00:45:31] Jimmy Flowers: And we are human beings and children of God just as well as anybody else. There's been Michelangelo that was gay, Jonathan and David, Einstein, and I can go down the list, which will take hours. [00:45:44] Julie Trainum: One of my favorite posters, have you seen it, is depicting all of the people, so many of the people, down through history. And it's just crowded with faces, it's really nice to see. [00:45:59] Jimmy Flowers: I love that poster. [00:45:59] Julie Trainum: Creative, talented. Very much so. [00:46:02] Jimmy Flowers: And also there was Jim Levin, Jim Levin was the gay lawyer who went around mostly towards me because I always seemed to get into trouble. Mostly because of the mouth. Not that I just stood up for what I believed in, but I got my first job in 1971 as a construction worker working on highways cleaning. And the other guys, they had black power on their helmet, kiss me I'm Italian, kiss me I'm Italian. So what I did on my hard hat, helmet, is put gay power on my helmet. 10 �[00:46:43] Jimmy Flowers: But that was totally a different story when it came to the union, D.C. 37, Victor Garfield. And then they tried to make separate bathrooms. A gay men's bathroom and a gay straight men's bathroom. And I fought that because to me that's discrimination, that's like a war fountain for whites and a war fountain for blacks. And to me that is discrimination. So anyway, also in their locker rooms, in their lockers, they had pictures of nude women. So what I did, to be myself, I put up a picture of a nude man on my locker inside my locker. [00:47:28] Jimmy Flowers: And of course that was totally a different story. At that time I had a boyfriend I was going to study with for two years. And their wives and their girlfriends came and picked up the guys from work and they hugged and kissed. You know, hello. So my boyfriend came up and we hugged and he kissed me. And brother, let me tell you, hell just broke loose. So they tried to fire me. And I went to the human rights, filed a complaint, went to D.C. 37 and filed a complaint with Victor Garfield to hit the union. The big cheese there. [00:48:13] Jimmy Flowers: And he says, we're going too far for lesbian gay rights. I said, what do you mean too far? We just want equal rights just like anybody else. And he says, well you're just going too far. And I said, no we're not. So Jim Levin was my lawyer again after a couple of cases I had. Because every time I hear or see something wrong I speak up. Then came the gay rights bill. Mostly that got me into a lot of trouble. Because I always speak up when I see or hear something wrong. Then came 1973, I believe. [00:48:55] Jimmy Flowers: The mental psychiatrists and therapists from all over the country came to New York and they were having a conference. And their discussion was, what are we going to do about these homosexuals in America? And at that time, the gay movement was just beginning to get on its high pit. [00:49:18] Julie Trainum: So it wasn't what can we do for the gay community, it was what are we going to do about? [00:49:22] Jimmy Flowers: About. About, alright. About the homosexuals in America. Mostly, they were concerned mostly of gay males. Don't ask me why, that's the way they did it. So we had a plan to have lesbians and gays to march together outside of the conference building. Which was held on 34th Street, Madison Square Garden. [00:49:49] Jimmy Flowers: And we, as we were protesting outside, about five to six hundred lesbians and gay therapists and psychiatrists came out of the closet at that time, at the conference, and the rest of the people that were inside, the so-called straight people, the heads that were saying what we were going to do about these homosexuals in America, that they're going too far, and that there decided, when they came out, psychiatrists and therapists came out, which shocked the living heck out of them, they decided then and there that it was not an illness, it was not a sickness. [00:50:38] Jimmy Flowers: This, I believe, was back in 1973. I'm not exactly sure on the exact date, but it's about there. So mental illness is not social disease or mental disease or mental order or anything like that, what they thought in the old days. And we're surely not sinners of God, we're children of God as well as anybody else. And also, and then we started protesting the city council people. The first one was 1970, with 30 people. Each year, the crowd grew bigger and bigger. [00:51:21] Julie Trainum: What types of issues did you bring before the council? [00:51:23] Jimmy Flowers: Equal rights in housing, jobs, unemployment, public accommodations, and we tried to put in marriages, lesbian and gay marriages, but that didn't go through. But we got jobs, housing, public accommodations in those orders. [00:51:44] Julie Trainum: How long did that take? That took from 1970 to 1986. [00:51:46] Jimmy Flowers: And that's in New York City? [00:51:53] Julie Trainum: That's in New York City. [00:51:55] Jimmy Flowers: And each year, the protests marched because we kept on insisting. So every six months, we were at City Hall protesting, and each time, the crowd grew larger and larger and larger. In 1986, we started registering, around 1980, we started registering lesbians and gays. We went to the bars, we went to the bathhouses, we went to the backroom bars, we went to the piers, we went wherever lesbians and gays went, we went there. 11 �[00:52:27] Julie Trainum: Registering at the bar? [00:52:29] Jimmy Flowers: Yes. And I, myself, registered over 10,000 lesbians and gays through the bars, through the backrooms, through the lesbian bars. And by the way, I was the first gay male to enter a lesbian and gay bar. Because at that time, lesbians wanted to keep to themselves because a lot of straight guys used to come in and harass them all the time, and it was a lot of trouble. [00:52:57] Jimmy Flowers: So Betty Santora, Eleanor Cooper, they were part of the group, and they said, Look, he's here trying to get signatures and register people to vote, and he's here for your cause as well as for ours. We're supposed to be together and be united. So I was the first male that ever went to a lesbian bar. [00:53:18] Julie Trainum: How'd that feel? [00:53:19] Jimmy Flowers: I felt terrific. You know, most likely, I got along with lesbians better than I did with gay males. I don't know why, but it just happens. There was a joke going around about me, that I was a lesbian trapped in a gay man's body. [00:53:37] Julie Trainum: Did you find that a compliment or not a compliment? [00:53:42] Jimmy Flowers: Well, at the time, I felt both. It was a compliment and it was an insult. But now I think it's a compliment. Then around 19, we started protesting the White House. 1971, we started putting paths. About 100 of us started marching to Washington on foot. [00:54:13] Julie Trainum: You thought you would tell Mr. Nixon a thing or two? [00:54:15] Jimmy Flowers: We thought we would, yeah. [00:54:16] Julie Trainum: How'd that go? [00:54:18] Jimmy Flowers: Well, as we passed each state, the crowd grew larger and larger. When we got to Washington, D.C., finally, it took about almost a week or so. We had rain and everything, and through the sun and everything. And people, as we were walking, with signs and paths on them, the crowd grew to 1,000. [00:54:43] Jimmy Flowers: from 100 from New York and then as we went to Washington they grew to 1,000. But I also got to say, too, there was other protest march back in 1966 by a group of about 25 to 30 lesbians and gay males from Mattachine Society. It wasn't the first march, but it wasn't a national march. The first national march on Washington from the country, the United States, was 1979, then again 1987, and then 1990, a few years later. [00:55:29] Julie Trainum: Early 90s. [00:55:30] Jimmy Flowers: Early 90s. [00:55:31] Julie Trainum: Sure. [00:55:33] Jimmy Flowers: The first one was sensational. We had the first march on Washington was over 500,000 lesbians and gays. The second one was over 50,000 lesbians and gays. Then they estimate the last one that we had was close to over a million lesbians and gays in Washington, even though the newspaper says 50,000 marched. Some said 40,000. Some of the media said 30,000, but if you saw the march yourself and you saw the crowd, you would know that there was five times more than that. [00:56:17] Julie Trainum: I was there. There was a million, believe me. [00:56:19] Julie Trainum: Have you been seeing more gay young people in the marches and parades? Jimmy, did you want to go ahead and continue with what was happening there in the late 70s and 80s? [00:56:31] Jimmy Flowers: Well, around 1976, Anita Bryant started a campaign against lesbians and gay rights, not only in one state in Florida, which passed an anti-gay lesbian rights bill, but then she started campaigning throughout the country. A lot of lesbians and gays, even movie stars and actors, got upset with her because most of her people that was working with her were gay people. That's number one. Number two, she 12 �was actually slapping people in the face that we wasn't human, we wasn't children of God, and we wasn't Americans and everything like that. [00:57:14] Jimmy Flowers: She was trying to get the religious groups to come out and say we are not. But I must say, and I also was one of the people that threw a fruit pie in her face. I was upset, I was angry, and I am American, a gay one, I'm proud of it. The Constitution of the United States says we the people, not we the blacks, not we the straights, not we the women, not we the lesbians and gays, but we the people. And even politicians forget what the Constitution says. And we have to remember that, that we are the people as well. [00:58:00] Jimmy Flowers: And we are just as human beings as anybody else. Because if you cut my wrist, I will bleed red blood just like anyone else. And I also believe that I was born gay, not made. Also, I would like to say that to black youth of America, that be proud of being gay. Don't be ashamed. Because in the 70s, if you was gay and black, their own race said that they were a disgrace to their race because they were black. But that's not true. Be proud to be gay, be proud to be black, and be proud to be Christian and gay or lesbians. [00:58:45] Jimmy Flowers: We must stand in unity and don't let politicians or religion try to split us up. Like, for instance, at City Hall, and I also heard it here at City Hall in Oklahoma, that, oh well, there's nothing against lesbians in the Bible. But they also forget Joan of Arc was burned to the stake because she was a lesbian. And they also forget about that, that's the Roman Catholics. There's a lot of things that in the Bible you can also prove. [00:59:19] Jimmy Flowers: If you put 20 people in the room, and each one of them read the Bible, you will find you get 20 different opinions of what the Bible says. So therefore, should we put a woman down because she's wearing a red dress? That's in the Bible. You know, they said, thy shall not kill. But yet, the Orthodox Jewish people, back in 1986, asked for the death penalty for being gay. Even the gay community, the Jewish gay community, got upset. And all, at the same time, in City Hall, we all stood up. [01:00:01] Jimmy Flowers: Black gays, Jewish gays, Christian gays, gay atheists, we all stood up and we yelled out, Hai Hitler to them. [01:00:10] Jimmy Flowers: That was the most insulting thing to them. They all got up, all the Orthodox Jewish community walked up and out of City Hall. And we applauded and we yelled out hallelujah, you know. [01:00:25] Julie Trainum: What are some of the things that you see that divide the gay community? [01:00:30] Jimmy Flowers: Well, number one, the money bed should not divide the community. The poor, middle class, and the rich. We must work together. Young, old, woman, man, black, and white. There must be unity. Because in numbers there is strength. Martin Luther King said one thing, In unity we have strength, divided we will fall. That's what Martin Luther King said. And we have to remember those words. Because so far what I have seen, we are divided now. But we have to start getting together. [01:01:12] Jimmy Flowers: Because sometimes I feel like I'm reliving the 70s and the 80s all over again right here in Oklahoma. I say to the youth of America, stand up, be proud, and don't let people push you down because you're simply a lesbian or gay or bisexual. Be proud of what you are. Because it's not just sex, it's a wave of life, and it's a wave of human sexuality. I believe that if human sexuality is taught at an early age, you will not have all this hang up about sex, about divorce, about women and men, about gay and lesbians and bisexuality. [01:02:00] Jimmy Flowers: I don't feel that there will be so much uptightness if people and children are taught at an early age about human sexuality and let them be themselves as they grow up. But be taught the right way. Some of us, we learned the hard way. And I must say, we may have all different ways of doing things, we may have all different ideas, we may have all different faiths. But when we step outside and protest peacefully, hand in hand, number one, we must be in unity and we must be in numbers. That's 65 people marching. [01:02:50] Jimmy Flowers: Because politicians, when they look out that window, they say, oh it's only 65, because they're thinking of voters. But if they see 200, 300, 5,000, or 10,000, or even 1 million people out there, they're going to wake up and they say, oh, voters, we better shape up or we're going to get shipped out. So therefore, I say, register the vote when you're 18. Put your money where your mouth is and tell it like it is. Go out there and be peaceful. March peaceful. Have kiss-ins, because there's no law against kissing of the same sex. 13 �[01:03:34] Jimmy Flowers: There is no law against people of two women holding hands, or two men holding hands. So we can easily have kiss-ins, walk hand in hand, surrounding city hall, singing We Shall Overcome. That would get them more anything. They would wake up. That's what we should be doing. And also to educate society that we're here to stay and we're not going away. Lesbians and gays have been here for the longest time. And since the time began, we're going to be here now, until the end of time. [01:04:13] Julie Trainum: Because gay young people, and actually any young person, has a whole lot more to face these days than we did 20 years ago or so, what types of messages would you give kids today when they look at their health and safety? [01:04:29] Jimmy Flowers: Well, number one, be safe. Use condoms. There's different ways of making love without sexual intercourse. That goes for male or female. There's touching, there's feeling, there's holding, there's caressing. There's more ways of making love without intercourse. And if you do have it, get a checkup. Play safe. Use condoms. Or don't use condoms, but be safe with sass. And have checkups. That's what I would say to the youth of America. [01:05:07] Jimmy Flowers: to play safe and also tell the government there must be a cure of AIDS now. Not tomorrow, not ten years from now, but now. Over 40 or 50 million people throughout the world have AIDS. And every day the numbers are growing and growing. And mostly now the young heterosexual community are getting them. And we have to reach out towards them. But just because you're HIV does not make you less of a woman, just because you're HIV does not make you less of a man, or gay, or straight, or black, or white. Be proud of those issues. Be proud of being black. [01:05:59] Jimmy Flowers: Don't let no one say, well, you're HIV now. Now keep silence, because silence to me equals death. It's time to act up peacefully and out there to march and let the politicians know that we are here and we're not going to take it no more. Did you participate in the AIDS walk this past year? Yes, I did. Can you tell us about that? Well, I carried the sign. I got to admit, the crowd was much bigger in Oklahoma than last year. Last year there was only 65 and I was sort of a little bit upset about it. [01:06:37] Jimmy Flowers: And I got a little emotional and a little angry and I went back to those groups and I told them, shame, shame on you for not being at the walk. This year we had close to 150 or 200 people. What I hear in Oklahoma, that was great. But I like to see next year 1,000 people out there marching. Lesbians and gays. Straight people. Parents of gays. [01:07:05] Jimmy Flowers: And even Christians can get AIDS. Yeah, I just wanted to mention that because sometimes they say they're Christian and there was one guy, I won't mention no names, he was going with a woman every day and then all of a sudden with another woman and I told him, I tried to get him condoms and I gave him brochures and he said, well his minister told him it was a gay disease. And I said, no it is not a gay disease. It's a human disease. And which our own government has lied about it. The blood banks have lied about it. [01:07:45] Jimmy Flowers: The Christians tried to put the blame on the gay, that it was God's punishment to gay people. AIDS is man-made. Two scientists already came out and made a statement that in 1969 they developed AIDS as German warfare. Now this was on television because I watch a lot of talk shows. There's also, they were experiment on green monkeys. And in Africa, their food supplies is green monkeys that they eat because of lack of food. Throughout the country, in Africa alone, 10 million plus has AIDS. Mostly heterosexuals. In this country it hit the gay population. [01:08:37] Jimmy Flowers: Yes, that's true at first. But in other parts of the world, Russia, Japan, China, Switzerland, Germany, East Germany, West Germany, also Africa, all the other countries it hit the heterosexuals. But somehow the gays get the blame for it. Don't ask me why, I don't know why. But it's time now to come out and not to do it violently, but peacefully protest by numbers. I've been asked that question quite a lot. And my answer is, no, I will not do anything differently. [01:09:30] Jimmy Flowers: Because I believe very strongly that I was born gay, not made, and I also believe in God, and I also believe in Jesus. And I believe in a God of love, not a God of hate. I also believe that Jesus preached love in the Ten Commandments, if you looked at it. It does not say, thy shall not be a homosexual. Which in 1976, some of the religious groups wanted to bring Eleventh Commandment on the Ten Commandments. And I was doing the Neal O'Brien situation. Which, by the way, I was one of the people that threw a fruit pie at the Neal O'Brien's face. 14 �[01:10:22] Jimmy Flowers: And she forgave me. [01:10:25] Julie Trainum: How do you know she forgave you? [01:10:27] Jimmy Flowers: Because she said it on television that she forgives me. [01:10:30] Julie Trainum: I'm glad you brought that up again because a lot of the younger people may not remember who Anita O'Brien is. [01:10:35] Jimmy Flowers: Well, Anita O'Brien was the one that was doing the commercials, and she was a singer, and a blogger. [01:10:43] Julie Trainum: But before that, wasn't she like a Miss America or some type like that? [01:10:47] Jimmy Flowers: She came in second place. [01:10:49] Julie Trainum: Okay, well it makes her like this all-American type, and people are going to maybe listen to her. And so then she went into entertainment. [01:10:56] Jimmy Flowers: Well, I can say this. We're all Americans here. No matter what color, what background, if you're a woman, if you're a man, young, old, black and white, of race. We're all Americans here. But if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty, the only Americans here that's true Americans is the American Indians. I mean, let's face it. You know, white men brought the diseases over from Europe. [01:11:26] Jimmy Flowers: If these diseases, if they would think, if you think about this, number one, if the government could spend $2.3 billion on one bomb that would destroy countries and life, human life, from all walks of life. Why can't they spend, and we've got enough weapons and bombs and airplanes to destroy this world 20 times over, if not more. It is now time to put an end to all diseases and put the money together and have all the scientists throughout the world in this country. And I'm not just talking about AIDS. I'm talking about diabetes. [01:12:11] Jimmy Flowers: I'm talking about heart trouble or cancer and liver problems. If they will find and put their money to save human life instead of destroying human life, I'll bet you, ten to one, we will be much happier. Because in the Constitution of the United States too, it says, life, liberty, and presumed happiness. And so far, I really haven't seen much of that. And I'm sure a lot of others haven't either. [01:12:43] Julie Trainum: But... [01:12:43] Julie Trainum: Okay, let me stop there for a second. [01:12:45] Julie Trainum: Stand by, stand by. We're looking at some of the things that Jimmy brought with him. Just kind of show real quick a few of these items. And let's go back over here to the purple outfit. Tell us what this is and when you wore it. [01:13:04] Jimmy Flowers: Okay. This was part of my go-go outfit. I was a go-go boy. [01:13:09] Julie Trainum: What is that again? You're a dancer. [01:13:09] Julie Trainum: And I also was a go-go boy at [01:13:11] Jimmy Flowers: the Gay Activist Alliance of New York City in the firehouse of GAA and at the Stonewall and at the Church of the Beloved Disciples, which was the first gay church in 1970 to raise money for the Church of the Beloved Disciples. [01:13:41] Julie Trainum: Okay. [01:13:42] Jimmy Flowers: And also, at that time, they called them hot pants. And that was part... I had black boots and a black cowboy hat and with the saccadone lights. That was part of my outfit. [01:13:55] Julie Trainum: Okay, great. And let's go back over here to this T-shirt here. This is really neat. 15 �[01:14:02] Jimmy Flowers: Well, I was the marshal of the... In 1983, one of the marshals, which is one of the grand marshals of the... You were chosen to be one of the persons that was involved in Stonewall and they called you a grand marshal. [01:14:28] Julie Trainum: Okay. [01:14:29] Jimmy Flowers: And this is the T-shirt from the 25th anniversary of Stonewall, which Stonewall would include all lesbians and gays from all over the world. [01:14:40] Julie Trainum: Okay. [01:14:40] Jimmy Flowers: And marched on the United Nations building to show that we want lesbian and gay rights throughout the world. [01:14:49] Julie Trainum: Okay. [01:14:50] Julie Trainum: And was this the Marshall T-shirt you were studying? [01:14:54] Julie Trainum: Yeah. [01:14:54] Jimmy Flowers: Which was 1983. [01:14:57] Julie Trainum: That's great. Okay. [01:15:01] Julie Trainum: And this banner? [01:15:02] Jimmy Flowers: That's the Stonewall banner which was given to me by Ed Murphy in late 70s. We all got one. As you see it's turning pink, but it was purple and gold. Lavender and purple and white is the lesbian and gay colors. [01:15:21] Julie Trainum: Okay. Great. Let's move over here and take a look at some of these buttons you have here. [01:15:28] Jimmy Flowers: Well, this shows you here in New York City in 1988. This was in the 80s. The gay 90s are coming. This here is the P flag. [01:15:42] Jimmy Flowers: This was the symbol for gay black of Africans, America, Americans. [01:15:50] Jimmy Flowers: This was the button on March of 87 to the White House. And this button here was printed in 1971, gay love, it's the real thing. This here was printed in 1970, I'm a man's man. This here is lesbian gay vote 89. And this was the first march in 1979 on Washington, National March. This is a button that says I support lesbian gay rights. This button here is the quilt, the names of the project. And this here says fight for lesbian gay rights, liberation. And you see the fist in the air means power to the people. [01:16:43] Julie Trainum: You told me one time how many buttons you actually collected when you had all of them. Do you remember how many? [01:16:48] Jimmy Flowers: Oh, I remember how many. Yes, definitely. Before I left New York in 89, I donated over 2,000 lesbian gay buttons to the Lesbian Gay Community Center. I also donated over 1,500 lesbian gay books that was printed from the 50s and 60s to the Lesbian Gay Community Center and the original lesbian gay flag. [01:17:14] Julie Trainum: What I'd like to do is just to get you to summarize, if you would, some of the ideas that you have about what you'd like to see happen in Tulsa. [01:17:25] Jimmy Flowers: Well, number one, I'd like to see Oklahoma wake up and smell the flowers. And also to see more unity instead of more divided. The hungry power should stop the dividing of lesbians and gays and young gays and older gays and black gays and lesbian black gays. What I am seeing now is what I feel like sometimes I'm reliving the 70s and the 80s all over again. What I'd like to see is more unity among all of us. The young, the old, the black, the white, and even some of the straight people in the community to get involved. 16 �[01:18:14] Jimmy Flowers: And also get the politicians to wake up and realize that we are here, we're not going away, we're going to be out there marching. But I insist, let's march peacefully, no violence. We must do it in unity. Once we step outside of the door, we must show numbers, unity, and strength. And let the politicians and the media and the Christians know that we mean business. That we are Americans and we're human beings and we are children of God. And we're just like anybody else. [01:19:04] Jimmy Flowers: We come from poor to black to rich, middle class, upper class, or lower class, and even homeless people. There are homeless people out there who has HIV and AIDS and they're not hardly getting no help at all. There's people from all over here that we have to educate the politicians that it's not a gay disease. It's a human disease and we must put a stop to it now. I say to the gay youth, come out, be proud, and be careful, and play safe. Show affection, be yourselves, and start marching. [01:19:54] Julie Trainum: Thanks, Jim. 17 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data VHS Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1 hour 20 minutes Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [c. 2000] The Jimmy Flowers Story Subject The topic of the resource Jimmy Flowers Interview for Tulsa Youth Discovering Diversity Description An account of the resource From Julie Tucker - Trainum, August 2019 - Jimmy Flowers was one of the very first members of the AIDS Coalition in Tulsa. He was a young man when he was part of Stonewall and in his interview he talks about Stonewall. Jimmy died in the mid 2000s. He was interviewed so we could share his story at the YST support group "Tulsa Youth Discovering Diversity." Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jimmy Flowers, Julie Tucker-Trainum, Youth Services of Tulsa, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Interview was conducted in 1999 or 2000 1999 2000 AIDS AIDS Coalition of Tulsa HIV interview Jimmy Flowers Julie Tucker-Trainum OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Stonewall transcript Tulsa Youth Discovering Diversity video Youth Services of Tulsa YST https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/2f56e8eb013fc7285639282d80498d7d.pdf 84d7d4b5a9977fabc990006ac7325a08 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource "Outrage" Flier Subject The topic of the resource Arts and Culture Description An account of the resource Flier advertising "Outrage," a film about closeted gay politicians who stand against LGBT rights. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Circle Cinema Relation A related resource Circle Cinema Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Flier Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant "Outrage" Film Arts and Culture Politics Homophobia Activism Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context https://history.okeq.org/files/show/2091 PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [ND] Circle Cinema Subject The topic of the resource Arts and Culture Description An account of the resource Documents and items relating to the Circle Cinema. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Circle Cinema Language A language of the resource English Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Arts and Culture "Outrage" Film Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context https://history.okeq.org/items/show/641 activism arts and entertainment Film https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/b367a4f6b231939e8565db8c28ea7b6f.mp4 d33190fe0b4a8b5a063b9662de140aac Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Sub-Series] OKEQ > Events > Follies Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [ND] Follies Video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/f1b1cddf4c503aa1dc4cae2719505f13.pdf aaa00c46e5965ae5a68dae73e47be796 PDF Text Text ����� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Collection] Oklahoma LGBT+ History Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br /><br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document Rollie Lynn Riggs (August 31, 1899 - June 30, 1954) was an American author, poet and playwright born on a farm near Claremore, Oklahoma. His mother was 1/8 Cherokee, and when he was two years old, his mother secured his Cherokee allotment for him. He moved to Shelter Island, New York after he started receiving a steady income when Green Grow The Lilacs was adapted into the landmark musical Oklahoma! (In 1943) James Fugate (pen name James Barr), author of several gay themed novels, plays, and articles was born in Oklahoma. It was while in Holyrood that the bulk of his literary output was produced including his groundbreaking novel Quatrefoil published in 1950. In the 1950s Fugate began a journalism career as the area feature writer for the Great Bend, Kansas, Tribune. In addition to Quatrefoil, Fugate also published the play Game of Fools (1955), and his second novel The Occasional Man (1966). Bruce Alonzo Goff (June 8, 1904 - August 4, 1982) was an American architect, distinguished by his organic, eclectic, and often flamboyant designs for houses and other buildings in Oklahoma. Goff accepted a teaching position with the School of Architecture at the University of Oklahoma in 1942. In 1955, Goff, who was homosexual, was accused of "endangering the morals of a minor", as homosexuality was not socially acceptable in Norman, Oklahoma in 1955. As a result of the unproven claims, he was forced to resign from his position at the University of Oklahoma. Anita Bryant was born in Barnsdall, Oklahoma. Bryant became Miss Oklahoma in 1958 and was a second runner-up in the 1959 Miss America beauty pageant at age 19, right after graduating from Tulsa's Will Rogers High School. In 1977, Dale County, Florida, passed an ordinance sponsored by Bryant's former friend Ruth Shack that prohibited discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. Bryant led a highly publicized campaign to repeal the ordinance as the leader of a coalition named Save Our Children. The campaign was based on conservative Christian beliefs regarding the sinfulness of homosexuality. Phyllis Ann Lyon and Dorothy Louise Taliaferro "Del" Martin, are an American lesbian couple known as feminist and gay-rights activists. Phyllis Lyon was born on November 10, 1924 in Tulsa, Oklahoma. She holds a degree in journalism from the University of California, Berkeley, earned in 1946. During the 1940s, she worked as a reporter for the Chico Enterprise-Record, and during the 1950s, she worked as part of the editorial staff of two Seattle magazines. In 1955, Martin and Lyon and six other lesbian women formed the Daughters of Bilitis (DOB), the first national lesbian organization in the United States. On June 26, 2015 when the US Supreme Court ruled gay marriage legal Lyon age 90... laughed and laughed when told the news. "Well how about that?" she said. "For goodness' sakes." Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [ND] LGBT People of Oklahoma Description An account of the resource An informational document about notable individuals within Oklahoma's queer history, 5 pages. The document discusses the lives of Phyllis Ann Lyon, Anita Bryant, Bruce Alonzo Goff, James Fugate, and Rollie Lynn Riggs. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Subject The topic of the resource LGBT People of Oklahoma Anita Bryant Bruce Alonzo Goff Bruce Goff Del Martin Dorothy Louise Taliaferro "Del" Martin Dorothy Louise Taliaferro Martin James Fugate LGBT history LGBT People of Oklahoma Lynn Riggs Phyllis Ann Lyon Rollie Lynn Riggs