4 20 681 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/f72c2df42fc84be737c24550dce17aec.mp4 d517224038d8563bc6f524eb2753e69d https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/9c5aa6299e0ece9650f1789f237c463b.pdf fc9870b8c20fb40b7478d0f28e9f551a PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with John Madigan Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: January 13, 2026 Transcribed By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, January 25, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About John Madigan Summary This conversation with John Madigan explores his life journey from a small mining town in Canada to becoming an influential figure in the LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa, Oklahoma. John shares his experiences growing up on a farm, his transition into the oil and gas industry, and his eventual involvement in various LGBTQ+ organizations, including Prime Timers. He reflects on the intersection of faith and sexuality, the challenges faced by the LGBTQ+ community, and the importance of advocacy and inclusion for older adults. John's insights provide a rich narrative of resilience, community, and the ongoing fight for equality. Takeaways 2  John was born in a small mining town in Canada.  He grew up on a farm with 12 siblings.  Education was a significant part of his early life.  John transitioned to the oil and gas industry in the 1960s.  He moved to Tulsa in 1990 and became involved in the local community.  John identifies as a gay man and became aware of his sexuality in adolescence.  He has maintained his Catholic faith throughout his life. � John has been actively involved in LGBTQ+ organizations, including Prime Timers.  He emphasizes the importance of community and advocacy for older LGBTQ+ adults.  John believes in the need for ongoing activism to protect LGBTQ+ rights. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Early Life 02:47 Growing Up on the Farm 06:00 Education and Early Career 09:00 Transition to the Oil and Gas Industry 12:02 Life in Tulsa and Community Engagement 15:02 Understanding Sexual Identity 18:02 Faith and Sexuality 20:55 Involvement in LGBTQ+ Organizations 23:48 The Formation of Prime Timers 26:57 Community Building and Advocacy 30:08 Challenges and Triumphs in the LGBTQ+ Community 33:09 Reflections on Aging and Inclusion 36:01 Future of LGBTQ+ Advocacy 38:59 Final Thoughts and Legacy John Madigan Interview Toby Jenkins: Good afternoon. We are here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library. And we have an interview with John Madigan. John, for archival purposes, tell us your full name, your date of birth, and your physical address. John Madigan: John T. Madigan. 04-24-45, XXXXX, Tulsa. 3 �Toby Jenkins: All right. So we're going to jump right in. John, where were you born? John Madigan: Luscar, Alberta, in Canada. Toby Jenkins: In Canada. So you're from Canada. Is that a big city, small city, little town, hole in the wall? What is it? John Madigan: Well, back in the early 40s, it was a mining town. Today, it's a, what do you want to say? It's got a signpost to say where it was. Toby Jenkins: So you were born there in Canada. And at that time, so 1945, it would have been a mining town. What would the population have been? John Madigan: 400 or 500 people. They're just miners. Toby Jenkins: So it was still just a small town. And did your father work in the mine? John Madigan: Yes. That was his military duty. Toby Jenkins: OK. He was required to do it, or it was his assignment. Was he assigned there for security or for just a? John Madigan: He worked in it. Toby Jenkins: OK. And did your mother work outside the home? John Madigan: No. Toby Jenkins: And how many siblings do you have? John Madigan: 12. Toby Jenkins: 12. And this would have been in 1945 in Canada. And your father was able to support the family with the money he made at the mine? John Madigan: Well, that lasted only after the war was over. Then we moved back to Saskatchewan where he was raised to his parents' homestead. Toby Jenkins: So they had a farm? John Madigan: His parents moved from Ontario to Saskatchewan in 1905 when the three provinces were divided up. And so they had to have people to populate it. So it was just like Oklahoma. You had a homestead. Toby Jenkins: OK. And so you kind of grew up on a farm then? Toby Jenkins: How old were you when you moved back to Saskatchewan? 4 �John Madigan: About a year old. Toby Jenkins: Oh, so you were just a toddler. Where are you in the birth order of 12 kids? John Madigan: At the top. Toby Jenkins: You're the oldest? John Madigan: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Well, that's incredible. There was a lot of pressure on you. Now, with 12 children, what was their religious affiliation? John Madigan: They were Roman Catholic. Toby Jenkins: Roman Catholic. That explains the 12 children. So you lived there, and you lived on what would have been your grandparents' homestead. So did you farm? John Madigan: When in 46, 47, we moved to my uncle's farm. And then he moved back to Ontario. And so we had the farm until 2018. Everybody quit farming. Toby Jenkins: What kind of did y'all raise? Crops, cattle, sheep, goats? John Madigan: No goats. No, it was wheat farming. And we had cows on the side for eating purposes. Toby Jenkins: Was there a little school in this little town that y'all went back to? John Madigan: Yeah, we had two. It was called Naomi. It was three miles from the house. And then when we started to go to school, we walked or rode the horse. We didn't get to drive the buggy until we were eight, nine years old. Toby Jenkins: No school bus? John Madigan: School bus? We're lucky we had a car. Toby Jenkins: So you had to go three miles to school. Now was that a Canadian public school, or was that a private Catholic school? John Madigan: Public school. Toby Jenkins: And is that where you graduated from high school? John Madigan: No, that was my elementary. And then they closed it and they consolidated the school district. So we had to move to town to go to school. That's when we found out there was a school bus that worked. 5 �Toby Jenkins: And what was the town, the bigger city? John Madigan: Ceylon Toby Jenkins: And so they had a high school, a public high school. John Madigan: It went from first to twelfth grade. Toby Jenkins: Do you remember what year you graduated from high school? John Madigan: 1964. Toby Jenkins: 1964. How many were in your graduating class? John Madigan: Twelve. Toby Jenkins: Twelve. Wow. Well, that sounds so wonderful. So you were twelve years old. You graduated from a class of twelve, my apologies. And when you finished high school, you had all of these younger siblings. What was your plan? Do you remember what your plan was as a senior in high school? What you kind of dreamed. Did you dream you were going to farm? Or did you dream you were going to stay there? No. John Madigan: No. Farming was not my forte. I was not going to make that as a career and I didn't. Toby Jenkins: So what did you do right after high school? John Madigan: So after high school, then did odd jobs. And then I got a summer job with the highway department. John Madigan: The, what do you want to call it? District office was there in town. Toby Jenkins: So you did that, but you still were staying at home in that area. John Madigan: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And still helping with your family. John Madigan: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: When did you finally leave there? John Madigan: Then that winter I got a job with the company doing oil and gas exploration from here in Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: In 1965? John Madigan: It's about 67. 6 �Toby Jenkins: 67. Okay. So you're a Canadian farm boy and you went from there to Tulsa, Oklahoma. John Madigan: Well, I spent the winter in Canada doing exploration. And then the next spring he moved us down here to Kansas. That was the first job in exploration down here. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So did you have to have a visa, a work permit? John Madigan: Yeah, I had a work visa. Toby Jenkins: And so that would have been in the 60s. Were you excited about coming to work in the U.S.? John Madigan: Yes, it was a good job. Toby Jenkins: You were just glad to get off the farm. John Madigan: That was something to do. Toby Jenkins: And so you came to the middle of the country and you said you started out in Kansas. And what exactly were you doing in the oil and gas? Were you a roughneck? John Madigan: No. No, it was exploration. We used gravity for our readings. It's similar to seismic, where they drilled holes and used dynamite for their energy. We had a machine that was gravity. It would read the pull of gravity. It changed at every spot that we were in. Toby Jenkins: So eventually, you said you started out in Kansas. Then eventually they moved you to Tulsa? John Madigan: Well, we went from Kansas. That year we went to Iowa. Then from Iowa we went to Nevada. Spent over about a year in Nevada. And then we went to Utah, to north of Salt Lake, Ogden. And worked out on the Salt Lake flat. And then we moved back to Kansas, to Goodland. And then from there, went back to Williston, North Dakota. And then we moved down to San Antonio, Texas in July, so you know what the temperature was there, when the humidity and the temperature were the same. Toby Jenkins: But I would have thought you would have been grateful to get out in North Dakota in the summer. John Madigan: That was coming summer. The fun of job, working exploration, was we worked in the summer in the south and worked in the winter in the north. 7 �Toby Jenkins: Isn't that the way it always is? So while you're bouncing around all over the midsection of America in the oil and gas industry, were you staying in contact with your family? I mean, were you sending money home? John Madigan: No. Toby Jenkins: But you were writing them letters, talking to them. John Madigan: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Your siblings, did you make trips home during the holidays? John Madigan: Every once in a while, yeah. We had vacation time. Toby Jenkins: When did you eventually land in Tulsa? What year would that have been? John Madigan: I came to Tulsa to stay in 1990, in January. Toby Jenkins: So all of those years, would they have you visit Tulsa for companyrelated issues? John Madigan: Yeah, the only time coming to town was just between jobs, change equipment or something like that. Toby Jenkins: And so what was your thoughts of Tulsa in those days when you first were exposed to it? Because that would have been in the days we were the oil capital of the world. John Madigan: Yeah, that was, well, I didn't stay in very long, but it was a nice city, liked it. That's why I come back. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and do you remember what the company was you worked with, what the name of the company was? John Madigan: They started out as E.V. McCollum & Company. And then when the owner finally, to decide, when he was in his 80s, to retire, it was called Gravimetrics. And we had an office down on South Main, just across the street from Texaco building. Dennis, you'd know where the Texaco building was. Toby Jenkins: All right, so about what age was it you finally moved to Tulsa, officially, permanently? John Madigan: I guess that's 90, that's 35 years ago. You take that from 80, I'm about 50. 8 �Toby Jenkins: You were in your 40s, late 40s. Okay, so all of this time you're here, did you become a U.S. citizen, or did you maintain your Canadian citizenship? John Madigan: Yeah, I still got my Canadian citizenship. I couldn't give it up, I couldn't afford to. Toby Jenkins: Right, so during this time you would have been a young adult man. Did you ever marry? Did you ever have children? John Madigan: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So you were a farm boy, and you landed this job, and it took you all over the country. How do you identify? What is your sexual orientation? John Madigan: Gay. Toby Jenkins: So you consider yourself a gay man. When did you begin to be aware that you were different than other people, different than other farm boys? Speaker 3: 13. Toby Jenkins: So you began to be aware of some differences when you were an adolescent. And when you finally get out of Canada, and you're traveling with this oil and gas company, was this an identity or sexual orientation? You became more aware of it, more confident that that's? John Madigan: Oh yeah, because you met different people in different towns. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so when you would travel to these towns, would there be places to meet other men who were like yourself? John Madigan: Well, there could be, but I wasn't pursuing that. Toby Jenkins: Okay. But you knew that, by then you knew that you... John Madigan: Oh yeah, because you knew. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so when you came to Tulsa, did you meet any other gay people here in Tulsa? John Madigan: Well, that's when I, by 95, that's when I joined Prime Timers. Toby Jenkins: Okay, but that would have been a couple of years after you had arrived. What about when you first arrived in Tulsa? John Madigan: Oh, yeah, we got to know a friend that, he was a Prime Timer too, and he was working at the hotel that I was staying over in West Tulsa. 9 �Toby Jenkins: Okay, do you remember who that was? Was that just a friend, or was that a boyfriend? John Madigan: No, we got to know each other, and his name was Jim Young. Toby Jenkins: Jim Young, okay, very good. Do you remember, when you first moved here, did you go to the gay bars here in Tulsa? Did you find them? John Madigan: I knew of them, but I didn't go to them. Toby Jenkins: Was it because that wasn't your thing, or you were still, you weren't out to people at work? I mean, what was the motivation for kind of segregating yourself from the community? John Madigan: No, it was just not that, I wasn't a bar person. I went to bars when I was working, you know, friends and co-workers. When I was working in different towns, I went to bars, but it was not very often. Toby Jenkins: So, you met this guy, and did he then kind of introduce you to other gay men, the bigger community? John Madigan: No, the conversation got around to it, you know. And he knew people here in Tulsa, because he moved from Eufaula up to Tulsa get away from the kinfolk. Toby Jenkins: Now, you had never married, and you were staying in contact with your family. Did you ever have a discussion with your family that you identified as gay, or did they ever ask? John Madigan: They didn't ask, and so I just kept things quiet. So, I'm sure they, you know, we just don't speak about it. A couple of my brothers, I am sure they're gay. Toby Jenkins: So, we all just, it's just not a conversation. Now, when you were addressing this, was there, did you have any kind of internal turmoil? I mean, did you feel like there was something wrong with you being this way, and so you felt like you needed to date women, or you needed to make everybody think you were straight? John Madigan: No, I just didn't. It was not a topic of discussion, even though I had coworkers that voiced their hetero feelings. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, talking about women all the time. John Madigan: And about gays. You know, they'd run into them in their lifetime, and well, we got talking about it, and they'd run them down, and I'd just cut them off at the knees and say, this is not appropriate to the job. 10 �Toby Jenkins: Okay, so what about, you were born into a Catholic family. Was there, and now, are you still a practicing Catholic? John Madigan: Oh, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, still identifies Roman Catholic, and where do you attend services? John Madigan: Christ the King, Cherry Street. Toby Jenkins: Was there ever a time where your faith and your sexuality, there was a struggle, or did you come to a resolution? Did you seek out pastoral counseling? John Madigan: No, not really. But I knew that that was not the norm of the traditional religious in the church. Yeah. But just...I had people that had conflicts with their religion and voiced it, you know, but that's just part of the tradition, you know, that was not in, so yeah, you deal with it. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever feel any kind of, um, like you were being attacked or you were being questioned at your church? Did they want to know why you weren't married, or, John Madigan: No. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you never had a priest or a religious leader who tried to reassure you that you were welcome at the church and maybe talk about that? John Madigan: I never felt unwelcome at any church that I went to. Toby Jenkins: Were there other LGBTQ people in your congregation that you knew? John Madigan: Oh, heck yes, you know them. Toby Jenkins: So, uh, just, just out of curiosity, as an 80 year old Catholic Canadian, what did you think when our previous Pope began to really make waves and say some pretty unexpected things affirming and loving towards LGBTQ people, specifically when he said priests could, um, uh, say a prayer at, uh, at same sex, uh, marriage ceremony, they, you couldn't do the ceremony, but they could, I guess, bless it. John Madigan: Bless it, yeah. Toby Jenkins: What was, what was your thoughts when that happened? John Madigan: That was, well, the, uh, this is the recognition by the church that we're children of God. There's no discrimination. It's only humans discriminate against. We'll always have homophobes. 11 �Toby Jenkins: Were you surprised that the Pope came out so strongly, supportingly, and lovingly of LGBTQ people? No. John Madigan: No. It was, it was in the, kind of in the flow. Toby Jenkins: Okay. John Madigan: It was, the church has, has to, uh, adjust to the society. Toby Jenkins: So the, the present Pope, who's an American Pope, um, do you feel like he's going to continue the work of the previous Pope of inclusion and moving the church towards a more welcoming faith community? John Madigan: Well, they're going to be more open about it. It was not saying that the church was not welcoming to you. They just didn't say anything about it. Toby Jenkins: Very interesting. Anything else you want to say about faith and sexuality or anything about that before? John Madigan: You know, since we’ve worked for the last 40 years or more, we made our voice, our presence known. We live in this country. We're a part of everything. Toby Jenkins: Ok. So it's, um, you're here, you know that you're a gay man, you're in Tulsa, Oklahoma, you've met this one friend, um, and, uh, you didn't really, from what you're told us, you didn't really connect, you know, with the clubs, the bars. Um, were you aware of TOHR, uh, and it's different names, what we call Oklahomans for Equality today? John Madigan: And, uh, I didn't, hmm, may have heard about it, but didn't, you know, make any concerted connection to it until after I, that both of us joined Prime Timers. Toby Jenkins: Okay. John Madigan: And then, and then, then right there you had 40 gay people right in front of you, yeah. Toby Jenkins: So, uh, did, in those, like in the early 90s when it was forming, did y'all meet at the community center? Um, do you remember? John Madigan: We met at the, there was a meeting room at, um, Harvard where the, uh, TOHR had their call center. Toby Jenkins: And their and their HIV testing, yeah. John Madigan: No, it didn't have that, it was, uh, you know, just the telephone. You called in and. 12 �Toby Jenkins: Okay, the helpline. John Madigan: Yeah, the helpline, that's right, and because a couple of the, uh, Prime Timers were working there. Toby Jenkins: Were volunteering on it. And so they would meet there in the meeting room. John Madigan: Yeah, they had a meeting room there. Toby Jenkins: Ok. So, you, you met this friend, and did he tell you about Prime Timers, or were y'all a part of Prime Timers forming? John Madigan: One of his friends that he knew, uh, mentioned it, and, uh. And I think Jim knew about Wesley, which was the founder. Toby Jenkins: Wesley, do you remember his last name? John Madigan Bauer. Toby Jenkins: Bauer, okay. Toby Jenkins: So Wesley had formed a chapter of Prime Timers. For our viewers, please tell us what Prime Timers is, and what it means, and what its mission. John Madigan: Okay. Prime Timers started in Boston. He was a professor, and he wanted to have a group of men of like persuasion for older guys to have a place to go and meet and greet, have fellowship and things. He started the organization in 1983. In 1993, Wesley and Omer started Tulsa Area Prime Timers. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So it was a chapter of a national affiliate. And so did they have monthly meetings, monthly discussion groups? John Madigan: We had a monthly meeting, and we had activities during the month. Toby Jenkins: What were you doing to be connected to the national group? Because I guess by then it probably had chapters all over the country, didn't it? John Madigan: Oh, yeah. Even off in other countries. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, around the world. My awareness of it is, to me, it seems to be having a resurgence. Do you think that's because there's more older men now that we're seeing? Our LGBTQ community, we're seeing a larger group of older, middleaged retired men? 13 �John Madigan: Oh, yes. It's more acceptable and open, and there's less conflict and stigma in this. And then the mission of the organization was to have something for older men to do, meet others. Toby Jenkins: And so it was just for men? John Madigan: Yes, it is just a men's group. Toby Jenkins: How did you handle, if you had an individual who identified as a female person, they wanted to be a part of the group, how did you handle that? John Madigan: Just told them away. When we were at the meeting down at Peoria... Toby Jenkins: On the Brookside location. John Madigan: On the Brookside location, we had just one lady come up and says, can we join Prime Timers? And I says, no, it's a men's only organization. And she says, well, could we start one? I says, yeah, you can start a girls' Prime Timers. Toby Jenkins: And there is a similar organization. I think it's changed its name a couple of times, but it is for older women who identify as lesbian or bisexual. How did you handle individuals who might have been transgender? John Madigan: Well, we had a member that transed while she was a member. And after she transed, then she was out of the group. We didn't ostracize her. She would come to the all activities. Toby Jenkins: So as she transitioned, came into the group identifying as male and transitioned to a female person. And so once she transitioned, she left the group. John Madigan: Yeah, well, she was identifying as female. Toby Jenkins: So that would have been the 90s and you got involved in it. What else would you like to say about Prime Timers? John Madigan: It's a great organization for gay men. Toby Jenkins: Bisexual men. John Madigan: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And you have, I know you'll have lots of brunches and lunches and you go to the movies and I know several of you travel to the National Gathering every year. You have a monthly meeting here at the Center. You have big holiday parties. I went to one of your recent holiday parties. I don't know how, there's probably 60 men in that 14 �house. And it was a blast and I got hand warmers in the gift exchange. I was tickled to death. Toby Jenkins: So Prime Timers, while it's its own separate individual 501c3 and its own program for gay and bisexual men, you had said that you were meeting, you were meeting at the Center. You talked about how the Harvard location, the Brookside location, and then I can, I think the first time I was exposed to you was when we were 21st and Memorial in the meeting room downstairs, which was not super accessible for people who had, people who had difficulty going up and down. When did you begin to get more involved with the organization? I mean, originally it was called Oklahomans for Human Rights and it became Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights and then eventually Oklahomans for Equality. John Madigan: I got into TOHR, oh I guess 97, 98, and just since I worked at nights and Tuesdays was usually my day off. So I'd go down to the Center on Memorial and sit at the meeting. Toby Jenkins: Okay. You would volunteer? John Madigan: No, just got interested. Toby Jenkins: Now were you ever involved in PFLAG with Nancy and Joe McDonald? John Madigan: Oh yes. Got connected at Fellowship [Congregational Christian Church] when they were having meetings there. Toby Jenkins: Okay. John Madigan: Nancy. TOHR. Then after that, then they got to, they got started with the Pyramid Project and just one day I got roped in by Sue and Marcy. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And what was the, if you, for our viewers, tell us what the Pyramid Project was? John Madigan: The Pyramid Project was set up for, for the organization to find a permanent building. So it's in 2004, was it then? Then we finally bought the building. Toby Jenkins: Why did we need a permanent building? John Madigan: Well, because our landlords weren't very good. Toby Jenkins: Wouldn't let us fly a rainbow flag over the building. So you helped with that project? John Madigan: Yes 15 �Toby Jenkins: So were you here that day we bought the building and raised the flag and we had the bagpiper here. What were your thoughts that day after y'all spent how many years? John Madigan: I guess about eight years, you know, convincing the gay community in Tulsa that we got the dirt. Back then we always had to say, well you don't have any dirt so we won't give you any money. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so by dirt you mean geographical possession of a piece of property. John Madigan: Yeah, and so then when we did, we signed the deed on this building, then we come up and says, okay now, we got the dirt. We want your money. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and they come across. Toby Jenkins: We all work together. Do you, so you were involved in Prime Timers and you were involved in this organization's formation and supporting the purchase of a permanent building. Did you participate in any of the renovation days that we would have? John Madigan: Oh yeah, When I had days off. John Madigan: when, of course, mornings was... Okay, gay people don't start before nine o'clock. So... Toby Jenkins: So, I want to, I don't want to miss it. Is there anything during that time, anything else that stands out in your mind, like pride festivals? Did Prime Timers participate in the pride festivals and the pride parades? John Madigan: Oh, yes. That was our community exposure. Toby Jenkins: That's what people found out about you. So we moved into this building and then y'all started having your monthly meetings here. Do you remember when they, do you remember when they were going to lift the ban on gays in the military? And were you a part of helping me collect names for our wall of honor? John Madigan: Yes, it is right over there. Toby Jenkins: And many of those were Prime Timers, weren't they? John Madigan: Yes Toby Jenkins: And we've lost many of them. John Madigan: Like most of them. 16 �Toby Jenkins: Most of them on the military wall, our wall of honor, which we dedicated that whenever the ban was lifted. And so, do you remember anything you want to say about that and what that experience was like? John Madigan: Well, that was a nice gesture by the organization to honor those people that served for freedom in this country. Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: Even though they had to keep their mouth shut, otherwise they would have been kicked out. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So when did there begin to be a stronger emphasis on providing programming for older adults? When did that really take off? John Madigan: I guess about 2009, 10, when you run into the SAGE organization. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Serena Worthington. John Madigan: Yeah, Serena. Toby Jenkins: I heard her speak at Creating Change in Chicago, and it's like, do you remember me coming back and telling you, John, we're going to start a SAGE program? John Madigan: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Because this is what everybody does. And can you tell me about those first few months, maybe that first year, until we finally got it right? John Madigan: Well, it was just like any gay group. It was about older adults and gay people in this country. In this town, didn't. There was nothing for seniors. That what it is all about? It took a lot of voicing and twisting arms. We're not going to kill you just because you're old. Toby Jenkins: So I think you might remember that first year, you and I would create programs. We would have the Area Aging on Aging come. We would have funeral homes, nursing homes come, and nobody would show up. John Madigan: Some still don't today sometimes. Toby Jenkins: Because we just thought we needed to provide programming agerelated. Well, that was a mistake, wasn't it? John Madigan: Well, it was not what they were thinking. Toby Jenkins: Right. 17 �John Madigan: Process. When we brought them there, and the whole intent was just to have those organizations and how they treated us as senior gay and lesbian people in their entities. Now, how were you gonna be treated after you died when you went to a funeral home? Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: Or you went to a senior center? Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: Were you gonna be put in the back room way down in the hall and they show up every couple of days for you because you're gay? Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So it had an advocacy element of it where while we were networking with these senior serving agencies, we were trying to make them more inclusive. John Madigan: Well, and that's what SAGE was all about. Toby Jenkins: Right. So what was it? We finally did that everybody got with it and they decided they wanted to be a part of it. John Madigan: You convinced Serena to have a gay conference here. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, we hosted. John Madigan: And hosted it. And they finally, oh, okay, that's something cool. Toby Jenkins: So you remember how we began to shift our attention from making them aware of resources to social activity like trips and pool parties and luncheons and entertainment, movie days and book story, book reviews. That's when we really began to see it take off and grow. John Madigan: Oh, yeah, because we did other things then just sit around and talk. Toby Jenkins: Talk about old stuff. John Madigan: Well, about each other. And did things that were interesting to people. Toby Jenkins: And more social. John Madigan: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Creating social opportunity. John Madigan: Yeah. 18 �Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: And the trips went to places where the people that are born, raised and lived and worked in this county had never been there. Never been, oh, I've never been here in all my life. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Museums. John Madigan: Like going down to Fort Gibson. Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: It's been here before the state was a state. Toby Jenkins: Um, yeah, we, activities began to be, in those days we used to have to rent vehicles and eventually we ended up with the equality van. And while we were traveling all over the country going to these things, it was branded so that other people knew about us and how to find us. John Madigan: Well, you couldn't miss it, the advertising name on the vehicle. Toby Jenkins: How did people find SAGE when we started that chapter? Cause we had lots of interesting, do you remember any of the stories about how people just showed up? John Madigan: No, they just showed up and just people come in and say, well, well, first it was something for the senior group and other than, it was geared to them and they felt comfortable. Yeah, the age group was right. Toby Jenkins: What about you? I know you were involved in the veterans wall. Also, our former director, Greg Gatewood, who had been the former director, he used to have an event on Thanksgiving day for older adults who were by themselves. And so I felt like we need to keep that going. Do you remember the days when we finally decided we wanted to create a Thanksgiving dinner here? So people started out as a thing for older adults who were by themselves and then it... John Madigan: Become a community meal. That was giving thanks for us. We had some place to go to and we had a community that you could relate to. Toby Jenkins: And how many people would come to those meals? John Madigan: Couple of hundred. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, and who would help provide the food? 19 �John Madigan: The allied churches. Oh, they'd fight each other trying to see who was going to get there. Toby Jenkins: Over who was bringing green beans or… John Madigan: Or cookies or cake. Toby Jenkins: But that was a huge project, wasn't it? John Madigan: Oh, yes. Toby Jenkins: And then we'd prepare the meals for people who couldn't come so they could have these takeaway meals which would be older adults who were shut in and couldn't. So, you've kind of been involved in so many facets of the community. And so, 80 years old, you look marvelous. I know multiple times you've traveled with the organization to conferences, trying to remember all the ones you went to, because every time we went to Creating Change, I would drag you out and make, I know your favorite one must have been when we took 56 people on a bus to Washington, D.C. John Madigan: Well, that was, you're not gonna forget that trip. Toby Jenkins: No, well, especially getting trapped in the Appalachian Mountains, in the fog, and we had to get out and walk through the mountains to keep the bus, oh, gosh, yeah, that was a… John Madigan: And then when we got there, the city shut down. Toby Jenkins: It was in the middle of the government shutdown under Trump, his original residency, and we marched, didn't we, against Trump and his attack on the LGBT community in his first, first term. So, you're 80 years old. And tell me your thoughts about, your thoughts for the future and your suggestions on what might help us improve to make sure everybody's included. John Madigan: Well, right now, in this day and age, is senior mobility. We have seniors, gay and lesbian seniors, at home that would like to come down here, but can't, don't have any availability to transportation. We had a lady, senior, ask us about coming to the OKEQ Senior Group, but she needed transportation. So, you gotta, that way you gotta have somebody to go pick her up, and her, him, didn't know which one it was, but anyway. Toby Jenkins: Would it be possible to work with non-profit organization, or non-profit or governmental transportation modules to be able to figure out a way to get them here? 20 �John Madigan: Well, yeah, there are other organizations in town that have transportation for their groups, but they don't have, can they fit in that, or do they belong to that? Toby Jenkins: Right. John Madigan: Life Senior Services, or the VA? Toby Jenkins: Possibly, y'all could partner with Tulsa, I forget what it's called, the bus system here has... John Madigan: The Lift. Toby Jenkins: The Lift. John Madigan: But then they, there they have to reserve the pickup time, two, three days out. Toby Jenkins: But that could be something that could be coordinated. John Madigan: Could be, yeah. Toby Jenkins: What else do you think is, when you're thinking of, you're youthful, 80 years old, you're eight decades on Planet Earth, what, do you have concerns about our present situations? Just curious, because this won't happen very often, we've got a reallife Canadian across the table from us, how does it make you feel whenever our present White House leadership is so combative and adversarial with Canada, our nearest neighbor? John Madigan: Our present President is, he's an opportunist and an agitator. He loves poke you on the ribs about things, and it's the things that are done behind the scenes. With the LGBT community, we got to be on guard 25-8 to keep what we got, because it'll go out the window in a flash. Most LGBT people think we got it made. Nah, the kids don't have a clue where we started. That's where the history should start. History 101 to the 20-year-olds, what it was like in 1980. Dennis Neill: This being a history project, this is John with Tay and others, when we drop boxes off for them to help support the resurgence of the history project. So maybe ask him a few questions about his experience with that. Toby Jenkins: Dennis has a picture of you and Tay and some other people in there. What year would that have been? 21 �Dennis Neill: I would say, John, probably around 2002 was when Laura and I relaunched the history project. And I was dropping boxes off. Would that be at Tay's house? John Madigan: Yeah, that's Tay Clare”s house. Dennis Neill: There's a few more pictures with a few more people in it. Toby Jenkins: So what we were talking about is all the different things you've been involved in. So you would have been right there. We got the pictures to prove it. As they say, a photo, it didn't happen. Well, there it happened. And we got you... John Madigan: This group of people here that started this were trying to keep it going. A bunch of women. And most of these women went to MCC. And it was still going back then. Toby Jenkins: Metropolitan Community Church. John Madigan: And it was kind of an outreach for them, too. Toby Jenkins: So this would have been when Dennis was a young man. So that would have been 20... John Madigan: When we were all pups. Toby Jenkins: It would be about 2002. And Dr. Laura Belmonte, who would have been our board president at that time, professor at OSU. And you look like you were involved in relaunching, as Dennis and John, his partner John and Laura Belmonte, wanted to relaunch the history archives and the history project. So that's what this picture is. John Madigan: Yeah, they were going through photos that people had for... Going back for 30 years by that time. Toby Jenkins: I loved what you said. We have our archivist, Amanda. I felt like his last line when he said... We've got Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality, and Amanda Thompson, our archivist. I felt like if you're going to have a promotional, John Madigan's line, History 101, I felt like that could have sold why this, what we're doing, is so critical. Anything else, John, as we come to the end of this, our time together, anything else you would want to say? John Madigan: We have to fight. Keep it going. They'll run us down. That's what the young people have to do. 22 �Toby Jenkins: All right. Well, thank you so much. That concludes our interview with John Madigan here at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center on January the 13th, 2026, at his youthful 80 years old. Addendum: Photos of volunteers at Tay Clare’s house sorting OkEq archival materials, circa 200 2. 23 �24 �25 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] John Madigan Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Toby Jenkins on January 13, 2026. John explores his life journey from a small mining town in Canada to becoming an influential member in the LGBTQ+ community in Tulsa, Oklahoma. John shares his experiences growing up on a farm, his transition into the oil and gas industry, and his eventual involvement in various LGBTQ+ organizations, including Prime Timers and OkEq Seniors. He reflects on the intersection of faith and sexuality, the challenges faced by the LGBTQ+ community, and the importance of advocacy and inclusion for older adults. John's insights provide a rich narrative of resilience, community, and the ongoing fight for equality. Subject The topic of the resource John Madigan Oral History Project Interview from January 13, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John Madigan, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource January 13, 2026 2026 interview John Madigan OKEQ Oral History Project OKEQ Seniors oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Prime Timers Primetimers Toby Jenkins transcript video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/d9c8a6149f14a01008d49c6d3f611a9e.pdf b4ccfe0cef6ae75fb4be9ca4125dc32d PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins (and Dennis Neill) Date: March 19, 2026 Edited By: Dennis Neill using Riverside Studio AI, March 21th, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Summary This interview with Pat Hobbs and John Orsulak explores their 36-year relationship, their careers in theater, music, and education, and their activism within the LGBTQ community in Tulsa. They share personal stories, insights on community involvement, and their vision for a more inclusive future. Keywords LGBTQ, Tulsa, theater, activism, community, aging in place, Rainbow Room, cohousing, Pride, advocacy Key Topics  Personal stories of Pat Hobbs and John Orsulak  Their careers in theater, music, and education  Involvement in LGBTQ advocacy and community building  The vision for the Rainbow Room and co-housing in Tulsa Chapters 00:00 Introduction to the Oklahoma LGBTQ History Archives 02:59 Love Story: Pat and John's Journey Together 05:49 Childhood and Early Influences 08:57 Navigating Identity and Sexual Orientation 12:00 The Impact of AIDS on Personal Lives 14:58 Career Paths and Community Involvement 17:49 Theater and Music: A Shared Passion 2 �20:53 Family Dynamics and Acceptance 23:58 Reflections on Life and Legacy 39:31 Theater Memories and Personal Triumphs 42:08 Integrity in Arts Organizations 43:27 Reflections on the Catholic Church and Leadership 45:22 The Journey of Finale's Restaurant 52:40 Y2K and the Impact on Business 54:50 Gardening and Community Living 56:28 The Vision Behind Heartwood Commons 01:01:32 The Role of the Rainbow Room in Tulsa 01:09:42 Theater Community Health and Future 01:14:38 Being a Face of the LGBTQ+ Community 01:18:39 Messages for Future Generations John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Oral History Interview March 19, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Today is March 19th, 2026. We are at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library interviewing today two wonderful people for our Oklahoma LGBTQ History Archives. Present in the room is Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality. Amanda Thompson, our archivist, and Toby Jenkins. Could you tell us your names? Pat Hobbs: I'm Pat Hobbs. John Orsulak: I'm John Orsulak. Toby Jenkins: And just to kick this off, how long have you been together? Pat and John: 36 years. Toby Jenkins: Now, we're interviewing this couple together and then we're going to find out a little bit about their lives. But I think for our purposes today, I'd like to start out with this question, because I know Oprah would ask. How did y'all meet? Pat Hobbs: Oh, Lord. In church. John Orsulak: Well, church rectory. At the time, I was a church music director at a small Catholic church in Bay City, Michigan, birthplace of Madonna. And the staff was invited over to the rectory for Thanksgiving. And the pastor I worked for was gay. Not that that makes any difference. But anyway, he had the staff over. Pat was visiting a mutual friend of ours who happened to be living there at the time. And Pat 3 �came into the kitchen and we started talking about theater. My ex at the time also showed up at the time, and he'd had a few. But we just hit it off and then... go ahead. Pat Hobbs: Well, we hit it off and he invited me to breakfast on Monday before I left town. And we started a long-distance conversation for about a month. And we met for the next time in Chicago for New Year's Eve. And I spent New Year's in Chicago. John Orsulak: I came down for Valentine's. Pat Hobbs: He came down in February to meet Tulsa. It was his Tulsa debut at Jerry Jackson's and Jeff Feist House for a big party. And then it just evolved. John Orsulak: You came in April. Pat Hobbs: I came in April, went back up there. And it was just kind of a decision. Who's got the better job? He was in music and he can do that anywhere. And I had a really good job here at the time. So we just decided to move here. And John moved down July 4th weekend. Toby Jenkins: And what year would that have been? Pat Hobbs: That was 1990. John Orsulak: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: All right. Well, let's find out how you two people became smitten with each other. What led to that moment? Pat, tell us about your childhood and your family. Pat Hobbs: Well, I'm the second of four boys growing up in Southeast Texas. My dad was a lieutenant colonel in the Marines. So we were his four Marine Corps boys. My baby brother was gay. He was five years younger than me. But we didn't realize that until 1990. So I grew up in Beaumont, Texas and spent time at the farm up in Newton County. And just considered myself kind of a country boy at some point. Toby Jenkins: So where did you go to high school? Pat Hobbs: Went to high school in Beaumont, Texas. Toby Jenkins: Beaumont, Texas. And what year did you graduate? Pat Hobbs: 1970. Toby Jenkins: So it's 1970. What was the world like in 1970, your world? Pat Hobbs: Oh, it was hippie time and it was protest time. Protesting the Vietnam War. Nixon was president. A lot of politics going on. But the draft was going on too. And sending kids overseas to fight in a war that we didn't, many of us didn't believe in. Luckily, I had a very high draft number and I didn't go. Toby Jenkins: So you never did get called up? Pat Hobbs: Never got called up. Toby Jenkins: What were your interests in school? 4 �Pat Hobbs: All my interests in high school were band and theater. And when I was in high school, I went with a friend to help him audition. They convinced me to audition and I got the lead. And it was the first thing I'd ever done. So it was one of those real quick things that, oh, this is fun. Toby Jenkins And what was the production? Pat Hobbs: It was a play called See How They Run. Toby Jenkins: Okay, it wasn't a musical. Pat Hobbs: No, we didn't do musicals in high school because the drama department did not speak to the choir department. They were at the same period, so we never did a musical. But I always loved them. Toby Jenkins: So that piqued your interest in performance. Were you in the band? Pat Hobbs: I was in the band, marching band. I played tuba. Toby Jenkins: Tuba. Pat Hobbs: I played tuba in the marching band. Toby Jenkins: And it probably was bigger than you were. Pat Hobbs: It was bigger than me, but you know, I placed first my junior and senior year. I placed first in competition. Toby Jenkins: In tuba. In Texas. Pat Hobbs: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Well, of course you did. You've always been an overachiever. Pat Hobbs: And then I actually won a state award my senior year. I was the first from our high school since 1952 to win a state UIL, University Interscholastic League award for boys' prose reading. And my winning selection was James Thurber's Unicorn in the Garden. Toby Jenkins: Wow, How appropriate. Okay. So this was 1970. Do you happen to remember how many were in your graduating class from Beaumont? Pat Hobbs: 289. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so it was a mid-sized Texas town. Did you go to college after that? Technical school? Pat Hobbs: I went to SMU the following fall and spent four years at. Toby Jenkins: And SMU is? Pat Hobbs: Southern Methodist University. I was a theater major my first year. And it was just a weird time for me because I thought there were a bunch of weirdos in the theater department. I wasn't out, but there were just a lot of weirdos. I mean, gay people. You know, what I thought were gay people. And I ended up transferring over to the business school and got a degree in accounting and finance but kept my love 5 �for theater and performing. And I would do all-school talent shows when it didn't involve the theater. Toby Jenkins: At SMU? Pat Hobbs: Uh-huh, when it didn't involve the theater department, yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Did you, by then, you're a college student. Did you, how do you identify? What is your sexual orientation? Pat Hobbs: At college? Toby Jenkins: Well, now. Pat Hobbs: Oh, now I'm gay. Toby Jenkins: Okay, what about at college? Pat Hobbs: I was straight, struggling. Toby Jenkins: Okay, but you had that sexual attraction to persons of the same sex. Pat Hobbs: I did, but, you know, it took a long time to get to the point, to actual coming out. Toby Jenkins: So you got a accounting degree from SMU. Pat Hobbs: I did. Toby Jenkins: And what happened after that? Pat Hobbs: You know, I had a job there in Dallas, and then I was dating a young woman, and she had a family business here in Tulsa. Their accountant retired, so they asked me if I would come to work for them here in Tulsa, so that's how I got to Tulsa. Toby Jenkins: And what year was that? Pat Hobbs: I worked for them, that was in 76, and worked for them until 1987. Toby Jenkins: Now, were you married? Pat Hobbs: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And how long were you married? Pat Hobbs: 11 years. Toby Jenkins: 11 years. Any children? Pat Hobbs: No children. Toby Jenkins: Okay. And during that 11 years, were there any kind of struggles over that? Did you have a sense of insecurity in your sexuality, or were you comfortable in that relationship? 6 �Pat Hobbs: I was very comfortable in it until the last couple of years, and there was this desire to see what's out there, you know? Toby Jenkins: Okay. John, tell us about your childhood. John Orsulak: Oh, gosh. Born in 1954. I'm the youngest of six. I have three brothers, two sisters, and also a stepsister, which was later, after I was an adult. Used to be, I think, current count on nieces and nephews is 13, though I do have some grand, or great, whatever it is, nieces and nephews now, and I think I'm even now getting to the great, great stage, which is weird. Lived in Danville, Illinois, hometown of Dick Van Dyke, Donald O'Connor, Gene Hackman, Bobby Short, and myself. It's mid-size at the time, blue-collar, Hyster, a lot of GM plants and things, they're all shuttered now and the town is kind of drying up sort of. I graduated in 72 from Danville High School, was involved in choir, got involved in junior high and then that transferred into high school. My high school choral teacher, Helen Wolfe, was instrumental in getting me into the drama department or a drama club and I don't, I'm trying to think, I was more behind the scenes than on stage at the time and ended up for some weird quirk the president of the club my senior year. While I was in choir, the music department held their very first two musicals while I was there. My junior year it was Brigadoon. I have a picture that was in the yearbook of me within my kilt with a hand up and it looks very gay, as far as the skirt a little hiked up on the leg. And then the second, the senior year was Little Abner and I was just, I think I was the milkman. But that was really the last theater I did for many years. I went to Danville Junior College to, now it's Community College, and got my degree there. That was the era of Streakers, had my first experience with people streaking down the quad, that was interesting. And then went, transferred to Illinois State University and got my degree in elementary ed. Toby Jenkins: And where was that? John Orsulak: Normal, Illinois. Bloomington Normal, where State Farm is located, their headquarters. Didn't do any theater, got very active with the Newman Club there, was involved in all kind of things. Toby Jenkins: So you were Roman Catholic. John Orsulak: Right, right. Toby Jenkins: Did you, you talked about theater, when did you become a musician? When did you become... John Orsulak: Oh gosh, I did that back as a kid. My grade school that I went to, St. Joseph's, which is no longer in existence, long time. They had a small pipe organ they needed somebody to play. I was, had taken piano and just kind of self-taught myself and would play for services. And then that just kind of evolved over time. I really didn't do anything that I recall in college. When I got out, I had my degree, I worked for the Catholic school. Our parish merged with another one, because that was the time small parishes had to do that. And so I taught at what was then, used to 7 �be St. Patrick's, now is Holy Family. I don't even think it's in existence now. Catholic school was seventh and eighth grade, language arts to start with, was doing no theater at all. Still would do the church music. For me as a kid, it was an escape at recess to go over and practice, just so I didn't have to deal with sports and bullying or anything else on the playground. But a friend of mine who had got her degree in theater at Illinois State, talked me into auditioning for a production, local theater production of Annie Get Your Gun. And so did that, chorus, and then from that point on, I basically got hooked, because the next show I got a featured role, Mr. Snow in Brigadoon, not Brigadoon, [ Pat added Carousel] yeah, that one. Thank you. And then just kind of off and on things there, I decided to get out of education, because I was drawn more toward church music, and went back to the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana to get my undergrad work in music. Had to audition for voice, so I had to take voice as part of it. And when I walked into the audition studio, here is William Warfield. Old Man River himself, sitting there, and I'm singing, you know, I'm in my probably mid-20s by then, and it was, you know, I don't recall anything. It was just kind of a blur. It was just seeing him but did that and then continued working and doing church work, moved to a small parish in Decatur, Illinois, if you know where that is. Was there a year, got fired, didn't work. I was a little too progressive for them because at the Newman Center, it was a very progressive Newman Center, and I mean the priests didn't wear a collar, the the woman who was religious, you know, didn't wear a habit. It was very laid-back, very contemporary. Toby Jenkins: Lots of folk music. John Orsulak: Yes, sang a lot of Godspell, things like that. But I did that and then went back from there, came back to my home parish in Danville, worked there for a while, and then went to Bloomington, which was the sister city of where I went to college, Bloomington Normal. Worked at the church there for a year. It didn't work out, though I did get a chance to participate in the renovation of the church, which was, that was a big deal. It was an old Art Deco style, but then they really stripped a lot out and got it. I don't know what it looks like now. Toby Jenkins: So was your career, just like Pat’s was accounting, was your career in church music? John Orsulak: I thought it was going to be. I did it for, I taught for five years and then went into church music full-time and then when I moved here, that's what I thought I was going to do and continue. And at the time there was only, I think, one parish that had any kind of an opening and just didn't feel, just moving here and experiencing their version of Catholic liturgy, they were so far behind. About ten, I was spoiled with a very progressive bishop and again, he was one that you taught, you called him Ken, you didn't call him Bishop, and it was just very laid-back. During that time when I was in Michigan, it's when I had my first relationship with a man and just kind of then met him [Pat] and the rest was history. Toby Jenkins: So during that time how did you identify and what is your sexual orientation? 8 �John Orsulak: Now I'm definitely gay. Back then it was, I think I'm straight. It didn't really feel right. It was, you know, there was a little experimentation here and there and I had one person at a rehearsal, no, it was a cast party after a show, who pursued me home and I was scared to death. I mean, I went to the garage, turned off the lights, got in the house as quickly as I could, turned off the lights and, you know, now I converse with him occasionally through Facebook and that's, you know, and there's no issue with that at all, but yeah, it was church music for a long time when I moved here and there wasn't anything available. I just went back to what I knew, which was education. So I got back to doing subbing in different school districts. I became popular, so to speak, in Jenks because they got to know me well. They liked me and I was offered a position to open the southeast campus when it first opened and from that point on I worked for Jenks over 20 years, fifth grade mainly. Toby Jenkins: Did Jenks school, did they know you were gay? John Orsulak: I wasn't out, but people knew. They knew and parents figured it out. I think a lot of parents did. The biggest controversy, occasionally he would be with me and I just would sidestep it, but... Pat Hobbs: May I interject here? John Orsulak: Go ahead. Pat Hobbs: So if any of you know about the Malcolm Baldrige Award, it's a highly prestigious award given by the Department of Transportation, no, Department of Commerce. Three or four companies a year win this award. Jenks schools won it. Mesa Products won it three times, twice when I was with them, so we called ourselves the Baldrige Boys. Well, when they made the presentation at the Hyatt, or the Marriott, it's now the Marriott down there, they had a nice little presentation thing at 7 o'clock one night, and I was late getting there, John was sitting at a big table of eight with his principal, and they left the chair open for me to come in next to the principal, and I came in and I sat down, and the principal did this, he actually moved his chair two feet away when I sat next to him. John Orsulak Yeah, that was uncomfortable, to say the least. Pat Hobbs: It was very uncomfortable. Toby Jenkins: And that was what year? John Orsulak: That was, oh gosh, that was... Toward the end. 2 Pat Hobbs: 2011, 20... I was at Mesa seven years, 2010, 2011. Toby Jenkins: So towards the end of your career in teaching at Jenks, did you see the culture change where administration and maybe other teachers were more supportive? John Orsulak: It was never an issue. People met Pat, they were comfortable with him. My co-workers, we never discussed it, but they were fine with him, they had no issues. About the only thing that really was controversial with me was for my 40th, I 9 �decided to pierce my ear. I had just done a production of Annie here locally, had done the whole bald head thing, and I was growing it back. And so I had just a poster, a hoop in. Well, there were parents that were just aghast, and they tried to get me to either, I don't know if they were trying to get rid of the earring or get rid of me, and one of the assistant superintendents, who I knew well and they knew me well, supported me and told them no. And from that point on, it was not... Pat Hobbs: But you even had the support of the superintendent, Kirby Lehman, back then. You know how they do prom pictures in Woodward Park? Every Friday and Saturday night during the spring, you can't find a place to park because all the kids are taking prom pictures. Well, living across the street from the park, our driveway was a turnaround, and we saw Dr. Lehman down the street. He became a really good friend of ours through some work with Theater Tulsa, and he came over and had a glass of wine with us. You know, it was our home, you know, come in while you're getting your pictures made, you know. John Orsulak: What do you do? Do you invite him in? Pat Hobbs: Yeah, invite him in and have a glass of wine. John Orsulak: And that was the year, had a young man drive up in a vintage Mustang with his girlfriend for pictures. And we're out there with a cocktail in hand, gawking at how people are dressed, like we normally did. And this kid looks over to me and says, hi, Mr. O, and he told me his name, and I immediately knew it was a former student of mine, but it was not, it was no big deal. And here are the two of us, I was like, okay, he's figured that out. But, yeah, it's... Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so your house faced Woodward Park. What was the street there? John and Pat: Rockford. Toby Jenkins: Rockford. So, well, you talked a little bit about your career and how you ended up in Tulsa. Did you want to talk any more about what your other interests, like how you got into the theater community here, or, I know you had that day job as an accountant. Pat Hobbs: Oh, yeah, but that was just a day job, you know, it paid the bills. Since 19... I had moved here in 76 and auditioned for a show in 77 for Theater Tulsa and did shows for them ever since. Did shows for all the theater companies here in town just about once, two, three, four times a year, you know, kept it up. Toby Jenkins: I know that you developed a character who became kind of wellknown, kind of a comedian musical character, you want to tell us about that? Pat Hobbs: Danny Day? Danny Day is almost a, oh, I don't know what to call it now…autobiographical story. He started in theater when he was five, playing Tiny Tim. And he was 55, the last time he was on stage he was 55, 60 years old. And he had done all the shows. He had done all the musicals in town. Sometimes two or three times. Sometimes this part. Sometimes he had a lead. Sometimes he had a supporting role. But he knew all the gossip. He knew all the scoop about what was 10 �going on in town. And he knew where the bodies were buried. He knew who slept with whom, and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it was a little character I made up. But it was very autobiographical at the same time. Toby Jenkins: It was very popular. You did it several times. Pat Hobbs: I did, yeah. Toby Jenkins: So you came to Tulsa, what year was it? Pat Hobbs: 76. Toby Jenkins: And I know you were married, and then you divorced. You were in Tulsa, this was, let's talk about before, and then John would have been still in Illinois, correct, during that period. You're men who are figuring yourselves out. Tell me about the first time you heard about AIDS. John Orsulak: Oh gosh. Pat Hobbs: Probably on TV. Probably? John Orsulak: Yeah, I really can't think of a date or a year either. Pat Hobbs: Early to mid 80s. 83, 84, 85. Toby Jenkins: Did you see the impact of that on maybe people that associated with the churches you were working for? Did you see an impact on friends, family? John Orsulak: I didn't really until I moved here. And got involved with the center. Pat Hobbs: And the Names Project. John Orsulak: Yeah, and then Billy. Pat Hobbs: And then my brother. Toby Jenkins: Okay, tell us about that. Pat Hobbs: Billy's five years younger than me. He was born in 1957. And it's a really lovely story, but he came out to me and John. We were all in New York one weekend for New Year's, and he came out to us at the dinner table one night, and we had no idea. I mean, just absolutely no idea. And we had this wonderful relationship for about three or four years. We'd go down to Houston where he lived. He'd come up here to Tulsa. We just had a really grand old gay time. He even had a parking place at J.R.'s, a private parking place at J.R.'s in Houston. He was so popular. But it was right after mother died, and we were, in fact, it was the day after, the afternoon after her funeral, and the four of us boys were sitting on the front porch. You know, it was, the will was cut and dried. We all knew what was gonna go on. And we were talking about the farm, what we were gonna do with the farm. And we're sitting there in our rocking chairs, just rocking back and forth like this. And he stands up and had a cigarette going, and he threw the cigarette out in the yard, and he said, it doesn't make any goddamn difference to me. I'm dying of the 11 �fucking AIDS. And he got up and he walked off in the woods. And about a month later, I got a call from a friend of his in Houston. And he said, I think you need to come down one weekend. You know, come down, see what's going on. So from that point on, John and I, we either drove down or we flew down every other weekend for a year to make sure he had food in the house, care in the house, a clean house, do all the things that we could do from a distance. John Orsulak: And it was right before the cocktail. Pat Hobbs: And it was right before, right before. Toby Jenkins: So it was 1995. Explain the cocktail. Pat Hobbs: 1995. John Orsulak: Gosh, originally it was just ATZ. Then other drugs, combinations came about that helped prolong life. And for Billy, it was just, he was too far gone. Pat Hobbs: Six months, six months. John Orsulak: Luckily he had good hospice care toward the end. Pat Hobbs: We had, yeah, very good hospice care. Toby Jenkins: This would have been what year? Pat Hobbs: 95. Toby Jenkins: And he would have been how old, Pat? Pat Hobbs: 37. Toby Jenkins: 37, yeah. Dennis Neill: Pat, how did your other brothers deal with it? Pat Hobbs: I'm just gonna say that my other brother between the two of us, what do we tell people he died off. That's as much as I'm going to say. But we found a hospice in Houston, Omega House, and it was just like, similar to St. Joseph's here in Tulsa, where the designers had taken a room and designed a room. And it was small, it was there in the Montrose area of Houston. And that's where he spent the last six or eight weeks of his life. And if you recall the pictures you saw on television of people in their last stages, the wasting syndrome, the weight loss, that's what Billy was. His wasn't a, I'm not going to say it wasn't a dignified death. Physically it was not a dignified death. What we did going down there was make sure that he died a dignified death by having food and help and making sure his will was properly prepared before he died. But his was one of the worst, wasting, devastating deaths. John Orsulak: But your nieces were very supportive. Pat Hobbs: They were very supportive. And they were very young, too. Toby Jenkins: Now, you told us that your brother, you and John, had already been together. Had you come out to your family as gay? 12 �Pat Hobbs: You know, I... John Orsulak: First time I met the family was at his father's funeral. Pat Hobbs: At my father's funeral. And, you know, John drove down to Texas and we buried Daddy. And from then on, it was, he was fixing mommy drinks at five o'clock every afternoon. I didn't have to say anything. You know, it was just... Toby Jenkins: So his mother met you. John Orsulak: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Pat Hobbs: And mother's uncle was gay. He had two long-term relationships, Uncle Fred, that we grew up with. So it wasn't a surprise to her. You know, she never said anything. I never said, hey, mom. You know, but he was always there at the house. John Orsulak: Tell the story of when I was moving. When we stopped in Danville. Pat Hobbs: Oh, oh, yeah. This is his dad. So we were moving down from Michigan. And we had a U-Haul van filled with his stuff and had the car towed behind. And we stopped at his folks' house in Danville to spend the night. And it was a tiny little house, and a tiny little bedroom that we were in with a tiny little almost twin bed that we shared. And we got up the next morning and had breakfast and getting ready to move on. And his dad takes me aside. His dad says, take care of my son. John Orsulak: No more words. Pat Hobbs: Take care of my son. John Orsulak: Yeah, it was never discussed. It was just a given. Yeah. Pat Hobbs: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Still welcomed by your family. John and Pat: Oh, very much. John Orsulak: When I come home, where's Pat? Toby Jenkins: Okay. Well, you're fortunate. I think you know that. But you're fortunate that you found each other. And you're fortunate that your families maintain the relationship. Tell us a little bit about some of your, I mean, you both had careers. But tell us a little bit about some of the things that you began to get involved in here in Tulsa. All of the organizations and the things that were passionate to you and the projects. Pat Hobbs: Oh, geez. How can you, you know, over the years, how many boards did I serve on? Including this one, twice. You know, of course, the arts have always been a passion of mine. And I've served on the AHHA board. I was on staff at Mayfest for a while. The Tulsa Garden Center. Anything creative and artistic, I was either on the board or on staff at some point, volunteer staff. And then got involved here at OkEq back in 2001 or 2002, when Brent Ortolani was president. And the previous president was Michelle. Help me out. She's in Kansas now. [Michelle Hoffman.] 13 �Anyway, because of my accounting background, they asked me if I would be treasurer. And this was when the center was located at 21st and Memorial. And I would go down and do the books on Sunday mornings while you'd go to church. I'd go down and do the books at this office we had down there that had no heat. I would bundle up in my coat to go down there. We didn't even have, we had, it wasn't even QuickBooks or Quicken, and it was some very, very elementary software program that we had. And it took maybe a couple hours to go in and write checks. And I think our total budget at the time was maybe $19,000. It was just, yeah, very grassroots at the time, if you will. And the smell from the bar next door, from being open on a Saturday night, I'd come home and have to hang my clothes outside on a Sunday afternoon just to get rid of the smoke that was in the office in the afternoon. But yeah, I served as treasurer for a couple of years until some health issues took over. And I had to relinquish those to Dwight [Kealiher]. And Dwight took over until the organization kept growing and growing and growing. We had $21,000 in the bank. This is one of my reports. 2021. Oh, wow. Just when the Pyramid Project was in its infancy. Toby Jenkins: So John, he said, so were you still playing, doing music for a congregation here at the time? John Orsulak: Not at first. I did do a little bit with one congregation. It didn't last long. Pat Hobbs: You did St. John's for a while. John Orsulak: Right. I was there at Jerome's, but it didn't last terribly long. Toby Jenkins: I think there were some, I don't remember what the reason was, but it just didn't work. Pat Hobbs: Political issues. John Orsulak: Yeah. Yeah. Probably more interpersonal things. But no, I really got back into education. And then because I moved here and we already had the love of theater between us, within a month, I was cast in a show. It wasn't a musical, but started my career with Theater Tulsa and then just kind of branched out into musicals. Toby Jenkins: So when he says he was working on the books and you were at church, are you still active in that? John Orsulak: No. No. Toby Jenkins: Okay. John Orsulak: I haven't been for a long time. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Dennis Neill: Excuse me. John, what was your favorite acting role that you've... 14 �John Orsulak: Oh my gosh. That's a tough one. Probably the one that I'm proudest of, it was probably the hardest role I had to do was Juan Peron in Evita. Not only did I have to dye my hair, because it's very gray, the best they could do was a dark brown, but musically it was some of the toughest stuff I ever had to learn. And I'd have to drill and drill and drill because it was very atonal, but it was this critical speech I do on a balcony and just getting through that was a triumph for me because it was a challenge. Otherwise, things came fairly easy, so it was nice to get a challenge that would push you a little bit more. Now, we've kind of aged out. Roles are few and far between. Dennis Neill: So with that Evita role, that was not that long ago, right? John Orsulak: What would you say? 10, 15? Pat Hobbs: It was probably 10 years ago. Dennis Neill: Oh, it was that long ago? Pat Hobbs: Yeah. John Orsulak: Yeah. Dennis Neill: And then Pat, how about you? Your favorite role and then also your favorite board position? All the non-profits you've served on. Pat Hobbs: Oh, my favorite role by far is Zaza, the Drag Queen in La Cage. Dennis Neill: And you did that as Tulsa... Pat Hobbs: Tulsa Project Theater, and it was an equity show, I got equity points. I'm equity eligible for that show. Dennis Neill: And how much did you get paid? Pat Hobbs: Oh, it was a hundred dollars. But the story I like to tell about that is that the end of Act I is when Albin is out there, or Zaza is in her full sequins and feathers and everything, dismisses the entire cast and sings the gay anthem, I Am What I Am, and it closes Act I. And I had the privilege of singing with an 18-piece Tulsa Symphony Orchestra in that show. It's Jerry Herman. It's horns. It's a beautiful orchestration. But here I am on stage by myself for the last five minutes singing this wonderful, wonderful song. And I realized on, it was dress rehearsal, when you're just totally in that role and you're totally singing, and you finish that last number, and you rip that wig off, and the curtain comes down, and there's nobody around you. You've just done the performance of your life, and there is, the cast has gone upstairs to change clothes for Act II. The only person on your left over here is the stage manager who calls curtain. There's nobody else on stage, nobody to catch it. And it's like, so after that happened on dress rehearsal, I asked my co-star Chris, who was my husband in the show, I said, would you please stand offstage on stage right and just hold me when I come off? Because you just exposed every nerve and every emotion in your body singing this wonderful gay anthem. And I just needed 15 �somebody to hold me, you know? So from there on, for every performance, Chris was there to catch me. But I love that. That was my... Dennis Neill: I loved the show. Pat Hobbs: I would love to do that again, too. Favorite board position. Oh, geez. You know, Dennis, my integrity, my professional accounting integrity, has gotten the best of me sometimes, being a board member. And specifically with a couple of arts organizations here in town who were doing the wrong thing and blowing through Harwelden money like they were going to get it next year, you know, get the same amount next year. And they kept blowing through it and they didn't have their policies and procedures in place. I'm not going to say I have the best organization I stayed on, okay, that I served on. But there were some fun moments for all of them. But all of my integrity got to me on a couple of them, really, and just had to walk away. Toby Jenkins: I wanted to ask this. We were... I was going to ask you about... You had worked for these churches and apparently still were connected, so you're no longer involved with the Catholic Church. As a former Catholic, I guess is the way I'd... What do you think about our present Pope? John Orsulak: Hopeful. The previous Pope, I liked him a lot, just he was on the right track. I don't know. I don't still... I'm waiting to see how he deals with people who are gay. The number of people who work for the church who are gay is... I think if people realized that, they'd be astounded. I worked for two gay pastors, very obviously, an assistant. And it's like, okay. Here locally, you just kind of wonder. I see a lot of cassocks and old school looks, and it's like, okay, what are you hiding from? Just not of interest to me anymore. I don't want to play the game. Toby Jenkins: It's still pretty profound though, that the world's number one religious leader for all of Christianity, whether they acknowledge him as their spiritual head, it's pretty significant that the last three or four years we've had a Pope who called us to treat people with dignity regardless of their journey. John Orsulak: John, the current one, he's from Illinois, my home state, and he's a Cubs fan, so you can't beat that. Good combination. Toby Jenkins: He's pretty critical of the United States' present positions on multiple issues, calls us out. Pat and John: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay, I just was curious about that. Now, let me ask you about this. Tell us about Finales. Pat Hobbs: Lord, really? John Orsulak: I need a drink. Pat Hobbs: That was the most expensive MBA anyone has ever gone through. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Pat Hobbs: I think we were kind of like Joseph in The Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat in that we were years ahead of our time, just ahead of our time. We 16 �found a space down here on First Street, and it was my dream to have a restaurant with entertainment, like Lucy and Desi, come down to the club. So we remodeled the first floor of the Jacobs Building down here on First Street and hired James Schrader as our chef, who ended up doing a dang good job of it. We hired people like you. We didn't know what we were doing, but we had fun at it at the same time. We had cast parties for opening night for several of the touring companies that would come in. The opening night cast party for Chicago was our biggest night that we ever had. My God, it was a fabulous evening. Beauty and the Beast, we had their cast party. And for all the local companies here in Tulsa, we have opening night cast parties, a place for people to go. Now they go to Kilkenny's or they go to McNeely's after a show. Toby Jenkins: So your vision was a restaurant with entertainment. Pat Hobbs: With entertainment, and it was before and after the theater. It was within walking distance. It was 476 steps from the Performing Arts Center. So if you're going to the Symphony or the Ballet, come have a nice dinner at 6, walk over to the PAC, come back and have coffee and dessert. Toby Jenkins: And so in those days, downtown was pretty deserted. Pat Hobbs: Oh, downtown. Toby Jenkins: You were it. Pat Hobbs: I think the May Rooms were still open. Toby Jenkins: And then across the railroad tracks was the Spaghetti Warehouse, but that was it. Pat Hobbs: That was it. Toby Jenkins: There were no other restaurants. Pat Hobbs: There was no Art District. Toby Jenkins: No other restaurants. Dennis Neill: And what's the time period? Pat Hobbs: This was 1998. 1998 to 2000. Toby Jenkins: And for our viewers, I was out and I needed a part-time job, and Pat and John, his partner, and his other folks who were there with him, took me under their arm and they taught me how to do fine dining. I didn't know how to, I never drank wine. They had to teach me how to serve it. But it was elegant. Tulsa's power people loved it. Tulsa's people who desired fine dining and entertainment supported it. Pat Hobbs: And we had a 1921 Steinway in the center of the restaurant. John Orsulak: You bought sight unseen. 17 �Pat Hobbs: I bought sight unseen out of California on the internet before they had pictures. John said, this is a drug deal going bad. And they delivered it to our house and I went, oh my God. Toby Jenkins: It was elegant. Pat Hobbs: It was, yeah. Toby Jenkins: But there was nothing in downtown Tulsa. Pat Hobbs: No, there was nothing. Toby Jenkins: Nobody lived in downtown Tulsa. There were no other restaurants. You were definitely pioneers of the revitalization and the restoration of our urban core, which we all take for granted. And younger people today just assume that it's always been like this. Because there was a period when downtown Tulsa was the place to be. And then everything left downtown Tulsa. And you and your colleagues were trying to, you could see it before others couldn't. Pat Hobbs: Well, thank you. Yeah, we just wanted to, the desire was to build it near the Performing Arts, find a place near the Performing Arts Center. And we looked two or three places before then. And the story goes, the name at the time was Finale's Cabaret and Restaurant. That is how we initially, and the word cabaret in Oklahoma in the 1990s did not mean the type of cabaret entertainment you see in New York City. That is musical theater, that's piano, piano bar, cabaret means strip clubs. So we found this place over here on Cincinnati and 2nd, right behind what was then Oklahoma Tire and Supply. It's now the Chinese place. And it was a twostory run-down building and we were gonna buy the building and renovate it. And then the word got over to the Williams Companies that cabaret, that a strip club was gonna open up across the street from the Williams Company's tower. And they came in and bought it out from under us and tore the building down because they didn't want a strip club because cabaret meant strip club. So we hunted for a couple of other places and found this one over on 1st Street, which wasToby Jenkins: And that was an old historical hotel. Pat Hobbs: That was an old historical hotel that was built in 21. Dennis Neill: And who was the landlord? Pat Hobbs: You know, the landlord, the legal landlord that owned the building or the one that... The legal landlord was a guy by the name of Ferretti and he lived in Oklahoma City. And he was this little short Italian guy who drove a big fancy Mercedes. I think he was mob related. But he owned the building and then Mike Sager got involved in it. And Michael Sager was the mouthpiece. And after we vacated the building, Sager had his name put at the top of the building, the Sager, but it's since gone. It's now Jacob, since Jacob's building again. But yeah, Michael Sager was the mouthpiece for Mr. Ferretti. Toby Jenkins: So this was going, and for our viewers, I was a waiter. And that is where I met Mary and Sharon Bishop Baldwin. They were there celebrating their anniversary. I was their waiter. I mean, it was a very, very elegant, impressive place 18 �to be. But I want to bring us to the place of closing night was what was going on in the world, closing night. Pat Hobbs: It was Y2K. You know, we had had, like I said, the night of Chicago was our biggest night. We had a private party in between the dinner hour and the cast party, and it was a big, and something happened in 1999, and the world was predicted to go dark because of the changeover, Y2K, 2000. Everything was gonna go, you're gonna lose your power. Nobody wanted to make New Year's Eve reservations. The year before, we had two turns. We turned that restaurant twice on New Year's Eve. This New Year's Eve, I think we may have had 80 reservations, and that was it. So we ended up catering a dinner for 37 up to the IT people up at Williams. So they, because they were on staff that night because we all knew the lights were gonna go out, and they didn't. Toby Jenkins: Oh yeah, we were afraid planes would fall out of the sky. Your current model cars would just shut down. Your computers would. Pat Hobbs: But you know, we were so hoping. I mean, you know, because restaurants are, you know, your margins are that big in a restaurant. And that was gonna get us through the next few months, you know, what we made off of New Year's Eve, and it just didn't happen. So we just kind of, we turned our own lights out. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, so I want our viewers to know that it was Pat Hobbs' idea to revitalize downtown Tulsa. Pat Hobbs: Oh no. Toby Jenkins: And you know, that, in 1999, he saw the vision, and so the city councilors should name a street after you. Pat Hobbs: And like I said, it was a very expensive MBA. Toby Jenkins: So, you're together, you're in Tulsa, you have your careers, you have your interests. Dennis has already questioned you about your involvement in all the non-profits. During this time, what else has been going on in your life, and what was passionate to you? Pat Hobbs: Gardening, gardening. We loved our yard over on Rockford, designed, initially designed by Dave Collins, did a fantastic job. We even brought cypress trees up from the farm. We had some cypress trees cut and Dave designed a beautiful cypress deck for us. And that was our passion for many, many years was our yard. And John's even a Linnaeus, was Woodward Park Teaching Garden. John Orsulak: Yeah, yeah. Formerly Linnaeus. Pat Hobbs: And still, you still volunteer every Tuesday. John Orsulak: Tuesday, now, yeah. Toby Jenkins: With who? John Orsulak: The Teaching Garden at Woodward Park, formerly Linnaeus, that's a whole story. But, yeah, I do that just to keep my fingers in it, because it's, it was, well, 19 �when we moved from the house, we moved downtown for three years while we were waiting for Heartland Commons to be built. And we really had no place to do, I could still go out and do some things at the garden. He had nothing, and it was driving him nuts. And that's been the one blessing of our current home is we've got a yard that's pretty much nothing was there and gave him a place to play. Dennis Neill: And give us a little more background on your thoughts about forming Heartland Commons, your passion about that, some co-housing with you. John Orsulak: Oh, gosh. Pat Hobbs: Okay, real quick, I'll give you the condensed, real quick condensed version. Performer Melanie Fry, we all know Melanie Fry here in town, been performing for 50 years, just did a production of Love Letters back in, for Valentine's. Melanie thought she and her girlfriends would get together and play water volleyball and drink wine in the summertime. And they thought, well, wouldn't this be a great idea if we all, as we age, all bought homes in the same cul-de-sac, and we can all live together and watch and take care of each other. Well, as they researched that, they found the co-housing website, and co-housing was developed in Denmark back in the 60s. And one thing led to another, they had an introductory meeting, Melanie is no longer involved in the project, she was for a little while, but she got us started along with four other families that started this journey back in 2015, I think. John Orsulak: Sounds about right. Pat Hobbs: It's been about 11 years when the initial conversation got started. But it's all about aging in place, keep going. John Orsulak: Well, it's, it's, you get, you, it's about community and having a support network that you can depend on. The house is secondary, it's nice to have, it's a new build, the, you're, you walk through the community to do what you need to do. If you're going to get mail, it's kind of like a condo place where you do that, however, if somebody's on their front porch, in co-housing, you're considered fair game. And you can be, you can visit and interact. If they're on their back porch, you usually leave them alone. That's a private space, but you're walking to get your mail, which normally would take you what, five, 10 minutes, depending on where you were in the community. For us, and that would turn into a half hour or more because you keep running into people who want to visit, who want to interact In some communities, that means a glass of wine, bottle of beer, sitting on the rail of the porch and just interacting and it's, it makes for a healthier lifestyle for older, for senior co-housing compared to traditional co-housing that is multi-generational. But it just enhances, gives you more opportunity for interaction, stimulation. You've got somebody to depend on if you need a ride, if you're needing an egg. You put it out there, somebody, you'll end up with a dozen eggs just because people want to help you out. Toby Jenkins: Very secure. 20 �Pat Hobbs: Very secure. Pat Hobbs: And you kind of look out for each other. John Orsulak: Right. We're basically our own neighborhood watch. That's evolved. We've been there over a year and we've had a few issues, but we've been working them out and had the Riverside Police, which is just two doors down from us, come over one evening and talk to us about safe practices and what to do and what not to do. And it's good to have those relationships. Toby Jenkins: So it's intentional housing, not just organic where you may know your neighbors and they sell their house and a new person moves in and you may not care for them. These are all people you chose to be around. Pat Hobbs: Everybody's become their best friends now. And it's kind of like family too because you have personalities. And sometimes your personality is buttheads, especially in a, what do I want to say, a homeowner's association meeting. And that happens everywhere. But yeah, we have common meals twice or three times a week. And it's where one of the residents will be responsible for buying the provisions. And we have a commercial kitchen in our common house and they are a team will do this evening meal for six o'clock and do the cleanup and everybody chips in $7 for their meal. And we all got, we had how many first St. Patrick's Day about, 28 or 29 of us and had this St. Patrick's meal with corned beef and hash and cabbage and it's community meal. It's all about community. John Orsulak: Yeah, it's got its pros, it's occasional cons. But overall, it's been a good experience. Toby Jenkins: Let me deviate a little bit from this because I do feel like it was good that we talk about that because there are going to be more of us that are older and we, instead of just letting housing happen, this is you purposely planning, this is what… John Orsulak: Oh, we looked at over 50 properties when we were in the area, north, south, east, downtown. And actually, we rejected the property we're currently in originally but came back to it and we realized this is where we want to be. Pat Hobbs: And it's five acres located at 71st and Riverside in that vicinity and it was an old farm, two and a half acres per lot. So we took the five acres and our community pitched in and we bought the property, we secured the bank loan to do the construction. John Orsulak: We designed it. Pat Hobbs: We had consultants come in and design it. John Orsulak: But we have, the nice thing with co-housing is you have input. You're not dictated like a traditional senior living. Nothing wrong with them, if that's your thing, good. But we set the rules. We have our own, we call them agreements that we've developed so that everybody's on the same page. You're not told what to do. You can do as much as you want. If you want to be active, you can be active. If you 21 �want to stay in your home, you can stay at home. We've got a mahjong group. We've got puzzles and TV and movie nights and it's just kind of like, okay, that floats your boat. You can be there. If not, you can just stay at home and curl up with your dog or cat if you have one. And yeah. Toby Jenkins: So thank you for sharing about this because this is, we've covered kind of a lot of areas. I want to, what a lot of people may know you for is here at the Lynn Riggs Theater in the Rainbow Room. Tell us a bit about your, just like Pat had the vision for the revitalization of downtown Tulsa with his pioneering days, he had a vision of he and John the Rainbow Room. And tell us a little bit about your vision for that in the Lynn Riggs Theater. Pat Hobbs: Well, let's go back to the 13 bullets for $13. That kind of, in my view, it kind of kicked this whole thing off when we had to replace the front windows. And that snowballed into basically an international fundraising campaign. But turning the garage downstairs into a theater. Thanks to David Nelson's help and Dennis's help and everybody else, I mean there were dozens of us on that team that were consulting on this thing. But we opened it in February of 2018. 2018, which was eight years ago. And I thought about it for a while and I thought, you know, let's do something fun with it. And I went over, I made the proposal to you, Toby. I remember going over to your house that afternoon and saying, I'd like to do this. Take it to the board or see what you have to do. And came up with the idea of Third Thursdays in the Rainbow Room. Which would be the third Thursday of every month. We do musical presentations. Now I say musical presentations. Tulsa has a plethora of talent in this town. And when people do their 32nd Chamber of Commerce elevator speech, they always talk about the arts. The philharmonic, the symphony, the ballet, the opera. But they don't really talk about the musical theater company. We have such a talented group of people in this town. And that was my vision, is to get some of these people, when they're not doing a show, to come in and do an hour and a half show. Come in and do a two-hour show. Do your own thing. If you want to do a one man show, do a one man show. If you've got half a dozen people, come in. And they're thematic. And I think one of the neatest things that I ever saw come out of this was a knight of musical theater. K-N-I-G-H-T, a knight of musical theater. And it was all songs from Camelot and Something's Rotten and Spamalot. And it was all songs about knights in musical theater. We've had some wonderful talent come through here though. We only had two presentations in 2020 because of COVID. But we've had over 60, 61, I counted them today. We've had 61 individual presentations as part of the third Thursdays. And now it's just Thursdays in the Rainbow Room because you can't just do the third Thursday. There's so much going on in town that people schedule. You've got to have it listed on a Thursday. But we've had 61 different performers. Janet Rutland, who is one of the most talented singers in Northeast Oklahoma, does her show in the Rainbow Room every two years. The latest one she did is around the Hollywood Campfire with John Wooley. And it has taken off, and she has performed that show all around Oklahoma this last year, but she premiered it here. Travis Guillory did his first drag show here. And it was three years ago, so it was 2023, I think he did his first drag Christmas. And look at him, Travis is now Miss Gay America. 22 �Toby Jenkins: Miss Gay America USA. Pat Hobbs: But we've had some wonderful, wonderful talent through this place. And I think it's exposed the center also. Having this little theater down here has exposed the Tulsa community to what we have. Many people have come in to see their friend perform, not just theater friends, but you know, like Janet, some of Janet's followings. They didn't even know it existed. They didn't know the Equality Center existed. You know, so they come down here and they, with our bar now and our seating, you know, they just, it's just like a little nightclub on a Thursday night. Dennis Neill: And Pat, do you think the opportunity for the performers to pocket a little bit of money, is that kind of a unique opportunity for some of these performers compared to the rest of them? Pat Hobbs: You know, absolutely, when you do musical theater, when you do community theater here in Tulsa, you don't get paid. It costs you two or three, $400 a show with meals and gas and costumes. But here you've got a chance to curate your own show. And the split that we've done with ticket sales is that the performers get 70% of the ticket sales. 30% goes back to the center. And you know, in most cases, that's eight, 900, $1,100 that goes back to the performer, you know, which, I don't know, you know, pays your pianist. It keeps, it's just a little enticement to keep people going, you know? Yeah. Dennis Neill: And knowing how important theater has been for both of you all this time, what do you think is the health of our theater community and where do you see it going in the future? Much like we've seen in other groups, there's a lot of small spinoffs and a lot of new theaters emerging. Are we healthy enough to support these and how do you feel like the direction is going to go for live theater? John Orsulak: That concerns me at this stage. Having moved, when I moved here, summer stage was still going on at the Performing Arts Center and that meant that was the only opportunity to do a musical for most, when Pat was doing Little Shop, or not Little Shop, Best Little Whorehouse when I moved here. And that was it. You had one show, one musical, and there were no touring companies coming around as I recall. A lot of straight plays, comedies, dramas, but if you aren't into that, it gave you no avenue. Now, I fear there have become so many splintered groups and so many organizations now within the community that it's almost spread too thin. They have so many opportunities now where these kids can do multiple shows in a year, multiple musicals in a year. But are there enough audience people to support it? It gets expensive. This past month, I don't know how many shows were going on, and the performers who want to go out and support their friends, they can't afford and they have to pick and choose. Okay, I can go to this show, but I'm gonna have to skip this one, or can I get to an IVR to see a rehearsal? Pat Hobbs: Our budget only allows us to go see so much. We're seeing, this is the third weekend of three weekends since we've been back, and it's like, okay, do we want to go? I want to go see my friends, but you know, yeah, there's a finite audience out there, I think, but they're doing some fantastic stuff. They're just doing some awesome, awesome shows. 23 �John Orsulak: And a lot of the, like Theatre Tulsa, for example, they've had ebbs and flows, the dips. So when I was there, it was an upswing, and then it had a major dip funding-wise, and they struggled, and they almost went under. But they clawed their way back up, and they've been able to, I think, restore, you know, there are always things you're always going to disagree with, as far as philosophy or structure. But, you know, Theatre Tulsa has that studio now, that used to be a dollar store, and it seems to be doing well. Pat Hobbs: It kind of makes me mad that they did that, because we've got this beautiful 100-seat theater here that they can use, but now they're using their own, because it doesn't cost them anything, you know? John Orsulak: But the nice thing with this theater, with Lynn Riggs, is it is small. It's a black box, so you have lots of flexibility on how it's used. You've got people, like Eli, running things, as far as the tech part of it. And it's big enough to do some good, solid productions, but it's small enough to be... Pat Hobbs: And we have done some really neat things here. I mean, when the Lynn Riggs can host the Tulsa Opera in a performance of I Love You, You're Perfect, Now Change, and do the job that they did, it was a beautiful production. And even Chamber Music Tulsa, you know, was booked in here. So, it's taken a few years, but, you know, word's getting out. Toby Jenkins: Well, I may be overreaching, and Dennis can slap me, but that's because of you. You made it happen. He made sure the resources were there, but you sold Tulsa on Lynn Riggs' theater. Dennis Neill: Yeah, you've helped bring Bill and Jason aboard to carry on some interesting... Pat Hobbs: I know, and I'm so, so excited about those two guys who bring just another level of energy, another age, another age group, and the way Bill and Jason have embraced the community, and the way the community have embraced Bill and Jason, to have this new Broadway Clubhouse come out here later this month is just so exciting. I can't wait. Toby Jenkins: Okay, I just want to ask you, I had a situation that...How does it feel to be the face of the gay community as an older couple? How does it feel? And by that I'm talking about the day that you were on the front cover of Life Senior Services. Pat Hobbs: Vintage Magazine. Toby Jenkins: Their very first openly gay married couple in Oklahoma. And how did that feel? And did you get any... I know that's incredible support, but I want to know, have y'all had experience pushback at your life in this time? John Orsulak: No, we've been told some people, what, three times over the years. I'm not saying we're normalized, but we certainly were nothing to be afraid of. And we believe in the community. We're the only gay couple at Heartwood Commons. That doesn't mean we won't have more, but we're accepted, we're not shunned. 24 �Pat Hobbs: I just wish that I had a publicist, because all these things just came about. I mean, there was no rhyme or reason. I don't have an agent. To have all these things happen, you know, Tulsa People three times, and Vintage Magazine, and then there's a couple more. They just happen. They just happen. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, Vintage Magazine goes to 400,000 people. Did you know that? Pat Hobbs: No, I did not. Toby Jenkins: It's one of the largest senior publications in the country. Pat Hobbs: I feel honored. Well, you know how that came about. Toby Jenkins: No, you tell us. Pat Hobbs: My post-retirement gig at the Garden Center, I was keeping their books, and there was a young gentleman that was doing an internship in communications, coordinating website, Facebook, Instagram, and all of this. Actually, Vintage Tulsa called him to find…they wanted a face for their issue, and he had the office right next to him. He says, hey, Pat, you and John want to do this? I said, okay. It didn't even dawn on me that he could have picked another couple. He could have picked a heterosexual couple. He could have picked an individual. But he just leaned over and said, hey, you and John want to do this? They need somebody for the cover of this magazine. Oh, okay. But we never got any derogatory feedback on that. Never got any hate mail. Toby Jenkins: So you may not have gotten hate mail, and you may not have gotten overt rejection or harassment. As a couple, have there been times when you've known if you were welcome in the room or not? I mean, you talked earlier about the crews. Yeah, the Malcolm Baldrige. Pat Hobbs: Well, the Baldrige Award thing, where the principal moved his chair two feet away. You know, at this day and age, not so much anymore. John Orsulak: Yeah, I just say this is my husband, and like it or love it. Pat Hobbs: You know, honest to God, since the legalization back in 2014, that's what we do. We introduce each other as our husbands, not partner, not roommate. I mean, and it's more accepted, isn’t it? John Orsulak: I just say it. Toby Jenkins: Well, that leads us right into kind of the closing of our time together. What would you say, I mean, our situations, we're seeing so much pushback against our community, on public policy. Today, the lead story in Tulsa, Oklahoma and the Tulsa World was state agencies, not state-funded organizations or agencies or colleges or universities or schools, could not acknowledge Pride Month. They couldn't fly a rainbow flag. Pat Hobbs: Well, let me tell you a story about what happened over at the Garden Center a couple of years ago. Dennis, thank you for the flag. May I tell this story? So, you supplied... 25 �Dennis Neill: Tulsa Progress Flags. Pat Hobbs: Tulsa Progress Flags. And it was flown, the Garden Center manager, Lee, flew it over the teaching garden and was instructed that the only time that the flag could be flown was during the month of June and immediately take it down the first of July. You know, half the staff at the garden center at the time identifies as LGBTQ+. And it was a city, it's city property. Take the flag down. Just made me so mad. You know, and this whole thing with the flag, it doesn't make any sense. What have we done differently over the last 20 years? Why now? Why are you offended? Toby Jenkins: So what would be your messages to those who come after us or for young activists? I always like to say it this way. In a hundred years, archaeologists are going to dig through the ruins of this property and they're going to discover that there was a day in America where there had to be LGBT centers and they uncover our archives. So the archaeologists, when they uncover your interview, what would be your message for the future, for those who come after us, and for young LGBTQ people and who identify as queer today? John Orsulak: Gosh, it's changed so much over the my lifetime. I have a former student of mine, fifth grade. I remember seeing him doing pirouettes on the playground. And I pegged him. At least I thought I did. And then later on, sure enough, and he's very now very active in the arts community here in Tulsa, has a husband, supportive family, and it's just like, oh, you know, it's become normal, much more normalized, and I hope it continues to be normalized where we don't have to live with any fear. That it's just, we're kind of at the point where it's like, I don't give a damn anymore. You know, you live with who I am, how I am, and if you don't like it, then go away or do whatever and I'll survive. I'm a worker bee, so it doesn't bother me. Pat Hobbs: Well, I've got my political comments, some that need to remain. I need to sit on it for a minute, but these bigots out there, these right-wing bigots, why now? What have we done? Like I said, what have we done? You still get your hair cut by a gay barber, okay? You still buy flowers at a gay florist, don't you? I don't understand why this movement is... And the one thing that scares me, though, is that they call them immigration detention centers for all these warehouses, that these empty warehouses, they're going to put all these immigration…I don't think it's going to be mostly for immigrants. I think it's going to turn out they're going to pick and choose what part of society goes in these places. That's just my opinion. I don't think there's enough immigrants to fill up all these warehouses. Toby Jenkins: Any other things for the future or for those who come after us or for today, for people who are wanting to know what to do. John Orsulak: And use your resources, the Equality Center. I hope it survives and continues to flourish because you need this. You need support. You know, if you're not alone, they need to know that. Pat Hobbs: The one thing I have learned from the Rainbow Room and the people who come here is that we are designated here at OkEq as a safe place. Always have been. And I guess it was during Pride or maybe that first Pride piano thing that we 26 �had a couple of years ago. But I had a lady come up to me and say, I feel safe here. Yes, that's why we need this place. Toby Jenkins: Well, it is March 19th, 2026 and today our interviewees, our special guests have been John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs. And they've been together 36 years. And joining us have been Dennis Neill, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, and Amanda Thompson, the archivist. And this is Toby Jenkins. Thank you so much for tuning in. 27 � https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/0655db9527d9c965e3ae77cf9ab9ecd7.mp4 5fe3a81c4475dc5db209b6fe8bc46c29 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Interview Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John Orsulak, Pat Hobbs, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 19, 2026 Subject The topic of the resource John Orsulak and Pat Hobbs Oral History Interview from March 19, 2026 Description An account of the resource This interview with Pat Hobbs and John Orsulak explores their 36-year relationship following a chance encounter at a church, their careers and longtime involvement in theater and music. They also highlight their activism within the LGBTQ community in Tulsa and the vision they had and implemented to bring the Lynn Riggs Theatre at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center to life. They share personal stories, including the passing of Pat’s brother to AIDS, insights on community involvement, and their vision for a more inclusive future. 2026 AIDS AIDS/HIV Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill HIV/AIDs interview John Orsulak Lynn Riggs Theatre OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Pat Hobbs Toby Jenkins transcript video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2021] John-WaKo Hawk Co-Cke' Interview Subject The topic of the resource John-WaKo Hawk Co-Cke' OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Interview from March 18, 2021 Description An account of the resource John was interviewed on March 18, 2021, by Oklahoma State University as part of its Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project. In the interview, John discusses his involvement in the LGBT community and as a two-spirit leader and elder at Oklahomans for Equality and for the Muscogee Nation Behavioral Health. <strong>A copy of the OSU transcript is on file at the History Project Archives at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource John-WaKo Hawk Co-Cke', Arlowe Clementine, Matthew D. Williams, Micki White, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 18, 2021 2021 Arlowe Clementine available at Center Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project interview John-WaKo Hawk Co-Cke' Matthew D. Williams Micki White Muscogee Nation Muscogee Nation Behavioral Health Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahoma State University Archives oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU OSU Archives OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project OSU Oral History Project transcript two spirit two-spirit Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2020] Jonathan Stanley Interview Subject The topic of the resource Jonathan Stanley Oral History Project Interview from July 14, 2020 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Morgan Allen and Fraser Kaster on July 14, 2020. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Jonathan discusses his experiences with the Tulsa gay scene and his involvement with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jonathan Stanley, Morgan Allen, Fraser Kaster, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 14, 2020 2020 available at Center Fraser Kastner interview Jonathan Stanley Morgan Allen OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/006a3e291caac95522a9871ee0e6dd1d.mp4 dda5c960f90098b8d9d20d55850689d7 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/887e542a2807ed6edc3a72e264cd9f06.pdf e9d6b264782cd101eac600767ffbce33 PDF Text Text 1 Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Jose Vega Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: May 22, 2026 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video AI, May 25, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org �2 About Jose Vega: Summary Join us for an inspiring interview with José Emanuel Vega, a dedicated LGBTQ+ advocate from Tulsa, Oklahoma, now making a difference in California. He shares his powerful story of overcoming trauma, fighting for LGBTQ+ rights, serving as Program Director and Deputy Director at Oklahomans for Equality, and building community through advocacy, education, and leadership. Keywords LGBTQ+ advocacy, Tulsa, California, trauma, resilience, community building, public health, HIV prevention, leadership, immigration Key Topics José Vega's childhood and family background Experiences with child abuse and conversion therapy Journey of coming out and self-acceptance Advocacy for LGBTQ+ rights and immigrant communities Impact of hate crimes and community response Leadership in Oklahoma and California Innovative programs like rainbow crosswalks and chapters International perspectives on LGBTQ+ issues and human rights Future goals for community empowerment and education �3 Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 02:21 Childhood and Family Dynamics 12:23 Experiences with Conversion Therapy 21:36 Struggles with Identity and Survival 30:06 Education and Career Path 34:39 Professional Growth and Advocacy 38:00 Finding Stability and Community 44:52 Confronting Discrimination in Safe Spaces 50:52 Advocacy and Leadership in the LGBTQ Community 57:56 Reconnecting with Family and Personal Growth 01:05:05 Navigating Hate Crimes and Advocacy for Protection 01:09:10 Handling Hate Crimes and Community Safety 01:11:58 Advocacy and Activism in the LGBTQ Community 01:15:07 Building Support Networks and Chapters 01:20:07 International Perspectives on LGBTQ Rights 01:25:07 Navigating Divisive Issues in the LGBTQ Community 01:29:54 Career Growth and Community Impact 01:34:54 Education and Public Health Initiatives 01:40:03 Inspiring Future Generations of Activists Jose Vega Oral History Interview May 22, 2026 Toby Jenkins: Good afternoon, and welcome to Oklahomans for Equality. We're at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center in Tulsa, Oklahoma. It is May 22nd, 2026. It's a beautiful Friday afternoon. We're here in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library with a history project interview. And today, our special guest, we all call him Jose, but will you give us your name the way you say it? Jose Vega: Jose Emanuel Vega. Toby Jenkins: Very good. And Jose, where do you live presently? Jose Vega: Yeah, I currently live in Sacramento, California. �4 Toby Jenkins: Where were you born and where are you from? Jose Vega: Yeah, I'm originally from Tulsa, Oklahoma. Family is from Mexico, Michoacan, Uruapan. And I was born and raised in Oklahoma. And I moved away from Oklahoma in October 2020. But it'll always be home for me. Toby Jenkins: And so you moved, where were you working when you left Tulsa? Jose Vega: I was at Oklahomans for Equality, and then I had the opportunity to move to Sacramento, California for the Sacramento LGBT Community Center there and work as Director of Health Services and Programs. And it was in the middle of COVID. Toby Jenkins: Right, and you were the Deputy Director here at the Oklahomans for Equality. Jose Vega: Yes. Toby Jenkins: All right, so we're gonna have what we call, you've heard of bisexual interviews. This is a bicoastal interview. We're gonna have a West Coast gay who comes back to the heartland, and we're gonna hear Jose's story. So today, our interviewing panel is Dennis Neill, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, Mary Bishop-Baldwin, who works here with the archives, and also was the plaintiff in the marriage equality lawsuit that secured marriage for Oklahoma and a big section of the country, and I'm Toby Jenkins. Toby Jenkins: Jose, let's start with, like we do all of our interview people, I’d like to hear a little bit about, your childhood and kind of your experience. You were here in Oklahoma. Tell us a little bit about your family. Jose Vega: Yeah, I was born in 1992 and raised here, and my family, I'm a son of immigrants. My family is from Mexico. All my family lives here. They're either here in Tulsa or in Mexico. You know, the only two. I am the oldest of my dad's children. He remarried six times, so he's on his sixth marriage now, but growing up was only me and him with one woman and her kids, and then a revolving door and so forth, but it's always been me and him. Childhood hasn't been… I had a rough childhood with growing up with him in that aspect. I Can share, you know, my coming out story. So with that, now what I know now with my dad, I know that he gave what he could give to the best of his ability, but during that time, that's not how I saw it or how it was lived with. So, you know, my story, I came out at 15. I was a sophomore in high school, but before that, I had a lot of child abuse. My dad would come home and I knew that, now what I know is that he had bipolarism and he would beat me, lock me up in my room. Sometimes I'd have to skip meals. I would show up to school with bruises and they'd ask, what happened here? And I would always lie to protect my dad and my family. But it wasn'tToby Jenkins: Because you had your extended family. You had aunts and uncles and cousins and then you still were pretty connected to your grandmother, and she was still in Mexico at the time, right? Jose Vega: Yeah, yeah. As all migrant families, we're all very interconnected. �5 Toby Jenkins: No connection to your biological mother. Jose Vega: Not during that time. Not before the age of 18. Toby Jenkins: Ok. You were experiencing, he would be very violent and abusive, and you felt that you had to protect him and your family. Why did you feel like you needed to protect them rather than protect yourself? Just curious about that. Jose Vega: Well, what happens a lot in child abuse is that there will be a parent or family member say, don't say anything because it will break the family apart, and you don't want to risk that. And so that's what happened to me. I had aunts, stepmoms tell me, don't tell anybody, tell them that you fell down, that you hurt yourself, and that's kind of what I did, ended up doing. But it wasn't until I was 14 when I've had enough. And there was suicide in my history, and at that age of 14 is when I was going through physical abuse, mental abuse, and verbal abuse, and it was every day waking up that you're a piece of shit, you're a son of a bitch, worthless, and so you tell that to a child so much that they end up believing it. And at 14, that's what I believed. My own father doesn't love me or thinks of me this way, then I must be this. And so that's the first attempt. And I felt very depressed, and I remember his words telling me, you didn't take enough [pills]. And from that moment on, that's kind of where I took empowerment of who I was and kind of protect myself. But even before that, I asked myself, they knew I was gay for some reason, because growing up too, I would have my hand, little cap [limp] like this, you know, fallen, or my hand on my hip, and I would get beaten for having these mannerisms. And so at the age of 14 when that happened, it was the last beating I had. And I was about to turn 15, and he came in and he striked me, and I stood up for myself and I said, you know what? I can't do this anymore. You're not going to do this to me. And you talk about you'd rather have a thief as a son, or a rapist as a son, or somebody else as a son, or a drug dealer as a son, but not a homosexual or a faggot. And I said, I'm a faggot. And crying, I said that. And so he was like, get your stuff and get out. There will never be a faggot in my household. And at 15, I grabbed everything I could and I started packing my bags. And then he comes into the room and says, what are you doing? I was like, I'm packing my bags like you asked me to. He's like, but I paid for all of this. And so I left with the clothes on my back and a blanket. And I managed. I couch surfed through high school. I slept in the ditch next to Webster High School. That's kind of where I graduated. Slept in a ditch at a park. Couch surfed with friends; with anybody I could. I would shower in the gym at school. But I was a happy child because I wasn't getting beaten. I wasn't getting the abuse. Toby Jenkins: You didn't go to the school counselor and tell her you were homeless? You didn't go to foster agencies? Jose Vega: No, and the reason why is because at school, I became the student who would put newcomers together. And I loved it. I loved helping a new student come in, learn the system. I've always had that passion of helping folks. But I ended up �6 partnering and helping foster kids, foster youth. And they would share some of the stories that they were dealing with. And I knew that if I was caught, I would have to end up in a foster shelter or some system where I would be limited and not have the opportunities that I'm having now, that I was having at that time. I worked at Reasor’s [grocery store] as a sacker at the age of 15 after school. Once I turned 16, it became full-time. But I was very appreciative because it gave me money to pay for a cell phone, so I would go to the admissions office at school and I said, here's my new parent's number. And anytime they needed a parent's signature, I forged the signature. Anytime they would call, I would pretend to be the translator. Usually a lot of Latinos, youth, are the translators. We, a lot of youth, end up translating medical paperwork or school paperwork or even legal paperwork for their parents because they don't understand the language. I would translate, yeah, the teacher's saying this, and I would just make my own decisions. And I never got caught, and I was really good at school. I do appreciate Mary Waters, who was my high school counselor. She did look out for me. She helped me with getting enrolled with scholarships, the universities, and prepared me. And then I had a lesbian gym teacher. She would see that me walking down very early, like at six in the morning, walking down to the school. And she knew because she would leave the gym door open and the shower room open where we just knew… We looked at each other, and we just knew what was going on. But nobody ever said anything or reported anything. Also food-wise, too, they would help me cover for food and meals. But also during that time, as a 15, 16-year-old, working at Reasor’s and putting myself through high school, sex work was a thing too, that sometimes I needed to do to find a ride. To help me with wash clothes, laundry. And so that's part of my history too, where I needed to do certain things to get by. Toby Jenkins: I know at one point you talked about there was a period where your family decided they were going to send you to Mexico. One, so you could learn to speak Spanish the proper way, but also interact with your family, but to get you more connected to the church. So can you share with us a little bit about what that was like going through what we call today conversion therapy. I think it was called reparative therapy at that time. Can you tell us a little bit about that experience? Jose Vega: So yeah, my aunt said that she could heal me, and there could be a cure for this. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: At what age? Jose Vega: I was 14 to 15. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Had you already left home? Jose Vega: No, this was before leaving home. So there was already this talk among my family that I was gay. There was already this talk, and they're like, well, we keep hearing his dad keep saying faggots this, faggot that, and that he doesn't want this at home and so forth. So maybe we can heal Joselito, that's what we call me. And so during the abuse too, it was a great getaway. �7 I can get away from my father from the abuse. So yeah. So I did a year in Mexico, my freshman year of high school, and they sent me to conversion therapy at a church, and it started with droplets and people just praying on me at church and telling me, you're going to go to hell if you don't change and so forth. But these droplets were black oil, black oil that I would take after every meal as soon as I woke up. If I had impure thoughts, I'd ingest, and every time I would throw up after a meal because it was covered with this coat… it was just black ooze. And the priest would say that that is the demon coming out of you. And I lost a lot of weight. And then I would remember to read from this little yellow book two hours before school. So I had to wake up early and be on my knees, not trying to lean, bend. So just be on your hard knees for two hours, praying from this little yellow book before and after. So early in the morning and then before bed. And then also a VHS tape of a priest that died and that God took him through hell and showed him how every sin is paid. So if you're a thief, this is how your sin is paid in hell. If you're a rapist or if you're a, whatever it may be every sin, but the one that I, that is embedded in my mind and I can see it so clearly because I would watch it for a whole year- was how homosexuality is paid and the priest can... I can describe it. It's not graphic, well, a little bit, but the priest would say: a hot metal rod is inserted through the anus, all through the body and out the throat at multiple times. And that's how homosexuality was paid in hell. And so having to watch this every day, read from this little yellow book and then be coated with this black oil stuff that I would ingest, I lost a lot of weight. I didn't even recognize myself. I was failing at school and then I was like: you know, I can't do this. I did it for nine months and I said, no, I can't do this anymore. And so that's kind of where I went back home and that's kind of when I stood up for myself with my dad. I said: you know what, I'd rather be gay, be where, I'd rather be homeless, gay and alone than having to endure this, this therapy or cure aspect, or even any abuse in the household. So I left. Toby Jenkins: Now, during this time when you're basically you don't have a permanent physical address, were you still in contact with your father and your aunts and uncles and cousins? Jose Vega: No, so all my family turned their back on me because I didn't finish the conversion therapy and I I wanted to… I just left home. So everybody turned their back on me. 15, 16 and um, nobody, nobody would reach out to me or talk to me. They knew where I was. They sometimes would see me at the grocery store or even see me walking on the street to my next destination. Toby Jenkins: Yet you made some friends, and those two are still your lifelong friends. Jose Vega: Yes, that's Martha and Jordan. Martha I met in high school and she knew so she was very, very sweet to me. She would bring me food from her home, just sometimes help cover lunch. And that's where it hurts, because when I needed somebody the most, she was there. She's my best friend. She's like the sister I never had. �8 Toby Jenkins: With all of that, dropped out of school and became a drug addict, right? Jose Vega: No. Toby Jenkins: What did you do? What happened? You graduated, didn’t you? Jose Vega: I graduated, I did so. So sophomore year of high school, I finished the year, but it became hard. It was hard because I was like I either need to quit school and get to work or find another alternative because I can't do this. I couldn't do this another two years of figuring it out how I was gonna get by. And I talked to Mary Waters, my high school counselor, and I said: I, I either need my GED, or graduate early or something. And so we looked at my grades and everything. She's like, Jose, you have great grades, you could jump a year. You could pay for summer school and do your junior year for that summer and then go straight into senior [year]. And I did. I did English Three that summer and came back to school as a senior. So I skipped my junior year. This is Pebbles [dog], she is three years old. Mary Waters helped me jump from sophomore straight to senior and I graduated early. And so I said, okay, I can do this one more year. So with that, one year is where I was able to move up along workwise at Reasor’s and stay in school and graduate early and then win scholarships. And then I moved to TCC, Tulsa Community College, where I went straight after high school. Mary Bishop – Baldwin: And did you get an apartment or were you still couch-surfing? Jose Vega: I was still couch-surfing during high school, but I was able to find something more stable and solid. I jumped a little bit ahead. There was a time where my aunt during that time- also senior high school- where she said: oh, Jose, God has touched my soul. And because she saw me as I was walking down the street, she says: God has touched my soul and I'm here to help you. I'm like, okay, yeah, I'll take any help. She's like: you can live with me, you can sleep on my couch, you'll have a shelter. And it was family. So I was like, oh, probably they finally came around. But she was charging me $300 to sleep on the couch, charging me for everything, well, you're using water, you're using gas and I have to pick you up and do this and do that. It started to get expensive and as a high school senior, I'm like I can't afford this. I went back to couch surfing with friends, where I didn't have to pay anything, and start saving up. And then finally I was able to save up to get A little $1,000 car and that's kind of where I started my TCC journey. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: And did you sleep in your car? Jose Vega: There was a time where I slept in my car here and there, but I'm very grateful because Martha and my best friend, but I had met a boyfriend by that time, so I wasn't doing any more sex work or trying to get by. I met a boyfriend and we both moved in together and we had dual income and we were able to grow together. I was 18. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Can we go back to when you were in Mexico in the conversion therapy program? What were your personal beliefs about yourself at that time? Did you believe that homosexuality was a sin, or did you feel like you knew within yourself that what you were and what you were doing was not wrong? �9 Jose Vega: No, I did grow up thinking that it was something wrong. My family- but my family's very- was very religious, very Catholic, and I was so embedded in the Catholic Church that they did tell us homosexuality was a sin. And so very young, I knew that I was different. I knew that why do I find other boys attractive, or why do I find this taller man attractive? And I didn't say anything, but I would hear. And then also a lot of media. There was this talk show, a Mexican Latina talk show, where there was a transgender woman or somebody who dressed up as a woman, man who dressed up as a woman who came to the talk show, kind of like it was a Mexican Oprah. Her name was Christina, so she was a Mexican Oprah. And in this talk show I was probably 10 or 11 and I saw that they were talking about homosexuality and gay men and they felt so to me. I was like that's how I feel I can see that. But I knew it was a…this mentality of it's a sin, it's a sin, you're gonna go to hell was very embedded in me and that's why I hated myself. I was like no, I gotta do this conversion therapy. Probably my dad will love me this time. Probably my family will accept me. I don't want to be different. So my mentality there was that. But it wasn't till I was 14 and going on 15, where I tried to commit suicide and my dad said you didn't take enough. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Didn't take enough what? Jose Vega: Didn’t take enough medication. It was pills. I tried to do it by oral, but medication went to the hospital, my stomach got pumped, I had to eat charcoal. But when he said you didn't take enough, it was like a click, just something like a click where I'm like: why am I living for you or for anybody? No, I'm doing me, and very young, and I know that a lot like this is why I advocate for teen suicide and all and care, because- because not a lot of teens make it, or- and I don't know where I got the strength from- I know the strength that's saying I'm not doing it for anybody, but for myself, and that's why I broke the chains. I said I'm gay and you don't like it, and I hit the street afterwards. Toby Jenkins: So the sense of survival your own. You took it within yourself to take to survive. But you had to do it at a much younger age, while you're still a child yourself. You couldn't depend on any of them. So you decided, I'm gonna survive on my own terms, without any of your help. And if I lose you, I'll lose you. Jose Vega: And that's what happened. Toby Jenkins: And so you graduate from high school early, go to college. Were you in the Achieves program? Jose Vega: I was, Tulsa Achieves. Toby Jenkins: Now I remember a portion of your story, there was a time when y'all visited City Hall, you were a part of a youth program, which you later implemented under Mayor Bynum. Was that during high school or college? Jose Vega: That was during high school. My senior year of high school is when I applied for the Tulsa Mayor Youth Council. And it was run by Nick Doctor and his wife, what's her name again? Forgot her name, I'm blanking [Mana Tahaie]. �10 Nick Doctor started the program, the Tulsa Mayor's Youth Council, where youth would get involved with local politics and advocate. And I shared, like, we need to do something for our youth, our LGBTQ youth, and advocate more rights. And that's kind of where my passion for advocacy started growing. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: What year would this have been? Jose Vega: This was 2009 to 2010. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, but your earlier experience, you had been exposed to something like this that you… Jose Vega: Yeah, there is a footage, there's several interviews. In 2006, I was interviewed because there was a Latino career fair and advocacy to bring Latino men up into the workforce. So, every aspect of it, I enjoyed. Every aspect of supporting those who needed their voice heard, even in high school. Dennis Neill: Jose, during this period of time, until you finished TCC, did you experience bullying because of either your sexual orientation or your racial identity? Jose Vega: Oh, yes. Dennis Neill: And could you probe that a little bit more? And how the adults and other peers reacted to that? Did they help you address some of those issues? And can you explain a little bit about that background? Jose Vega: Yes, before I was 14, there was bullying for my skin tone. I would be called beaner, wetback, go back to where you're from, and also kind of, like, fruity. And I remember some parents at school saying, it looks like that kid has sugar in his tank. And I didn't understand it until now, but there was. But it wasn't until age 14, in high school, 15, 16, I would still get bullied, but you couldn't do anything to me. I didn't care about it. And I didn't care about it because if I didn't care about it from my own family or father, you're just a kid in school. And so that empowered me. Dennis Neill: How did the school authorities react to these issues that you were facing? Jose Vega: My high school counselor for the bullying aspect, she stood up for me. And I just…my friends, too. I remember Martha, my best friend, she stood up to these bullies, too. She was a tough cookie, and she would sometimes fight my fights. So she was, and what I love about it, because she was one year behind me. We would have graduated the same year, but because I jumped a year, her senior year, and I was in college, she started the first GSA at Webster High School. And she said, I did it for you because there's more gays…there's more LGBT people at school. And now that you're gone, I don't know who to protect. And that's who I'm gonna protect. She became…she was an ally. But during that time of high school to college, yeah, there was bullying, there was wordage, but you couldn't do anything to me because if I didn't accept it from my dad, I couldn't do anything. Dennis Neill: Did you experience that, even at TCC �11 Jose Vega: ? No, not at TCC. I didn't experience that at TCC. But workwise or anywhere else, growing up, yeah, you couldn't say anything to me. I didn't care for it. Toby Jenkins: But you did hear it. Jose Vega: I did hear it, but it didn't, it was likeToby Jenkins: So you're at TCC, you're on your own, you are in a relationship. Was it this time that you chose your career path? I mean, you had… tell us kind of some of the different places you worked, because I know you worked in, you worked in multiple places, agencies. Was it there that you developed your passion for public health? Jose Vega: Yes, so it was there. So I chose the dental hygienist program, but then I moved it to health administration, or just medical terminology, because I wanted to help our community and learn more about health care. My first official health care job was Saint Francis Hospital as a patient transporter on the weekends, and I would move patients from the emergency room all the way up to their room or from the room to the x-ray room and so forth. That was every weekend and it wasn't until I was translating, because there wasn't a translating system or somebody wasn't there to translate from English to Spanish. And I was translating for this patient and this doctor, this Orthodontist, sees me translating. And then he offers me a job and he's like: well, why don't you come work for me? I was like, well, I'm still in school and I enjoy doing this. And he's like: well, you'll work on the weekdays when you don't have school. And so, yeah, I worked for him for a while. He paid for me to go to get my dental x-ray certification, my dental sterilization equipment certification. And this was me during TCC, going through the dental hygienist. But then, after that role- that's when I switched work, switched to something else, to health care, but that was that's what I did for a while and then after that, and what made me do the switch was when I worked for Nova Health, which was the abortion clinic here in Oklahoma, and at that time it helped me understand more for women, understand more for also part of my religion, where we know that, where they were, in my Catholicism, where they say abortion is evil, is bad and so forth. But working there helped me understand what women go through, from assaults to their body, their choice. Everybody has a reason why they do what they want to do, and it helped me understand that these women need help as well, and I worked there for about 9 to 10 months. I learned a lot from that experience. I'm very proud to have helped those women who would come from the street to the clinic while protesters would chase them, show images, and I would go out there with umbrellas, with coats, and just give them access to health care when they needed it the most. I did that for a while too. Toby Jenkins: So TCC, living on your own with your partner or your boyfriend, did you complete your program at TCC? Jose Vega: I did, yes. It was medical terminology and a minor study like medical science, and then I went to University of Phoenix and finished it online because work was starting to pick up and I was like I need to switch online. I can't take off work or do it �12 in person and so forth. So I finished my degree online on health administration and hospital management and that's kind of where my health aspects started. Mary Bishop-Baldwin: Is that your bachelor's degree? Jose Vega: That is my bachelor's- health administration, hospital management- and that's because I was a record technician and an administrative medical administrator at the Nova Health where I'm helping these women self-pay for these protocols and workflows and they didn't have an electronic medical record so logging all of their files. Toby Jenkins: Did you do any translation work? Jose Vega: I did do translation work too. I was able to do medical translation documentations- medical and legal. I did all of that and that's kind of where my career, through health aspects, started and that's why I graduated with that degree. Toby Jenkins: Somewhere in there you ended up the Tulsa World. So school, and you were still with this partner… Jose Vega: Yes. And then the ten months at the Nova Health Center is when the Tulsa World opportunity came. And well, hold on very shortly- sorry, backtrack- I worked at a medical imaging center- sorry, from Nova Health Center- for 10 months, then I worked at a medical imaging center and at this medical imaging center- it was a faith-based medical imaging center and I was let go after six or seven months, when they found out I was gay and they just said, Jose, we just we terminated, we just don't accept your lifestyle. And I was doing so good, I was translating their medical paperwork. I was translating their…I was helping with their records to electronic and I helped so many Spanish-speaking patients. I managed their schedule, but just because of who I was, I was let go and I was never back in the closet until that moment. And I remember going to the Tulsa World. I remember going to several interviews and they all asked what happened at your last job and I just said, just decided to move, just decided to do another role or something. It put me back in the closet. It wasn't till I was at the Tulsa World and I was interviewed by Susan Ellerbach and she asked me the same question that every interview asked me: what happened at your last job? And I broke down and I cried and I said I was let go for being gay and I've been holding this inside so much and in every interview they've asked me I've said for personal issues or something else, but I don't want to be hiding anymore. And she hugged me and she offered me the job right then and there, and that gave me the strength again. That gave me the I don't need to be, I don't need to be sure who I am anymore. I was very happy again because, she gave me the job. I was the newsroom assistant, I was her executive assistant and I enjoyed every moment and I helped with obituaries. I helped Mary and Sharon, everybody there at the Tulsa World. I loved it because it felt like I was working with, I was working for like…I think at that time the movie Devil Wears Prada had come out and I feel like Andy, you know just oh, yes, Susan, I'm ready to go, Susan, here's your coffee and so forth, but I loved it, but she was nothing like that, okay, �13 nothing. That's later on when we move into the center. But I, that was one of my favorite roles, yes. Dennis Neill: How long were you in that position? Jose Vega: Oh, that was about a year, some change. But during that time, I was the happiest I could have been because I was finally having a good, stable job. I wasn't ashamed of myself anymore. I had a boyfriend and had friends. But I wasn't active out in community. Toby Jenkins: Can I just ask you, were you having any kind of communication with family, your father? Jose Vega: No, I was still alone. Dennis Neill: When was it that you're at the Tulsa world. Jose Vega: 2012, 2013. Toby Jenkins: You are at the Tulsa World. And when you say you weren't active in the community, you mean the LGBTQ community. Jose Vega: Yeah, the LGBTQ community. And I say that because we would go to this club. We go to the clubs and you know, I was a young man… Toby Jenkins: Most of your friends and the community, the gay people, it was other Latino, Hispanic, immigrant community. Jose Vega: Yes. I had met in the Latino community, a lot of, a lot of LGBTQ, Latino, undocumented individuals- and that's who my community was- and a lot of Dreamers in Tulsa, and so I had my little posse and we would go out to the bars and clubs and I remember going out. They showed that you know, they didn't have documentationOklahoma documentation- but they had their IDs and passports from their country. We ended up going to a bar named Renegades. That's where we enjoyed going. And so we go, we show up, I give my Oklahoma ID and they give their passports and we're at the door and then they tell them: well, where's your Oklahoma ID? I'm like, what are you asking? This is an ID that tells you their age. And they're like: no, we need to show proof of their citizenship. And that's got started feeling like what are you doing? This is a real proof of ID. And they said: nope, we can't accept this and if you don't leave, we're gonna call immigration. That destroyed my friends. That happens a lot in the Latino community and document community is that they don't any kind of discrimination like that. They're just like: okay, okay, we're sorry, and they just leave. Toby Jenkins: It never occurs to them it might be illegal. Jose Vega: Exactly, and- and it still happens to today. �14 Toby Jenkins: Their first thought is: not my rights, treat me with respect, they just assume… Jose Vega: But they also don't want to cause trouble and they're afraid of immigration. Many of these people are running away from countries or neighborhoods or areas in their town or city where, for them, being gay, it's a death sentence, so they don't want to ruffle feathers. And I see that in my family too. When my stepmom or my dad or anybody was discriminated, they just bowed their heads and leave and just never came again. But I was so tired. I grew up like that and I was like how can a marginalized community marginalize another community. Toby Jenkins: And how can the gay community marginalize immigrants, undocumented individuals? Jose Vega: I thought this was a safe space, a safe place for all. This is why we have these safe places and especially like they're LGBTQ too. Doesn't matter where you're from or your skin color or your language, you're LGBT. I was very upset. I was very, very upset. This happened on a Friday night. I was very upset and I remember calling the LGBT Center the next day and leaving a voicemail and saying: how could somebody do this? Why would this happen? There needs to be some education on what IDs, identifications are acceptable, but also, how can this, how can this happen? And my friends were like Jose, just leave it, leave it. I'm like no, no, because I'm not that kind of person to leave anything like that. I didn't leave it when I was 15, 14 and Susan empowered me. So that happened during the weekend. I submitted a report, an incident report at the LGBT Center in Tulsa and through the helpline. And then that Monday I came in and I cried to Susan, I told her what happened that weekend and she was frustrated. She's like: how dare they do that to you too? She said, if they don't apologize by the end of the week, we'll run a front-page story on the Sunday newspaper. And I called the center and I said, hey, I really want to work this out. There needs to be an apology and there needs to be some education. But also I don't want any bad news for our community, but they need to apologize and they need to apologize to my community. So, Toby- and at that time it was Stewart the lawyer, Stewart Ashworth, and I think you both helped a lot in that aspect of legal and so forth- and so you, Toby, talked to the Renegade team and it wasn't till Thursday. They come around and we're like: okay, okay, we'll set up a meeting. And so we did. We met at Renegades. My friends didn't want to join. They're like no, no, we're just, we're never touching a foot there again. We're too scared. And I was like, okay, then I'm gonna represent you guys and I'm gonna represent all of those that came before us, because if they did it to you, they probably did it to other people and I don't want that ever to happen again. So I show up with Toby and this is kind of, I think, one of the first time we met, and it was a two-hour back and forth of no, we would never do that. We did not do that, this and �15 that. And we were very calm and collected and after two hours I just said: you know what? That's fine, I'm done here. You know what you did. Just know that you did it to the wrong person this time. And I'm going to be more active, and I'm going to create a committee and educate the bars and make sure that all of these LGBTQ places are safe places for everyone. And they ended up apologizing. And that Friday I came in, Susan, they apologized. Everything's good. And that's when I started getting more involved with the LGBT Center. Toby Jenkins: I think it was during that time, just while we're here, do you feel like racism and prejudice against immigrant communities is it an issue in the LGBTQ community? Jose Vega: I believe there may be some, but everybody has a personal experience. And as much as we've seen, I can speak on my behalf. Have I seen it? Yes. Have I spoken out towards it? Yes. Is there something we can all do about it? Yes. Because the LGBT community is so inclusive and intertwined that as long as you fall under the umbrella, you're part of the community, regardless of what your skin tone documentation is. But there is, so there's still a lot of education needed to happen. But why have inner fighting? Why not stick together instead? And that's kind of what stems my work with the LGBT Center and our DACA recipients. So in 2015... Toby Jenkins: So let's make sure of your... So you went through this experience and you said you wanted to get more involved. So we ask you to serve on our board of advisors and specifically create programming for immigrants, community, and Hispanic and Latino, Latinx individuals, basically becoming the liaison on this particular portion of our community to make the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center more inclusive and its programming more targeted towards our immigrant community and for specifically Hispanic Latino people. You had been asked to serve on that advisory committee. So that's kind of... You were on the board of advisors, so there we went on with that. And so you go ahead. Jose Vega: Yeah, so on the advisory board, I represented our Latino community, was more active. I was still involved with DACA students from TCC because during my time at TCC, I was involved with them. Even though I'm not a DACA recipient, I saw the need that they had. Toby Jenkins: And for our viewers, what does DACA stand for? Jose Vega: Dream Act... Deferred Action [Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals]. I just know that the group was called D-A-O-K, Deferred Action Oklahoma Group. This was for individuals, some immigrants who were raised here, not born here, but were raised here. They're practically citizens, right? They're paying taxes. They're working. They're trying to live the American dream. And so they were at TCC. I was very involved with them, helping them, supporting them. During my time here, I said, well, why don't we collaborate and bring them in? And I had the opportunity to bring their support group here and do some intertwined intersectionality education. The LGBT community to learn about Latino cultural, the homophobia within the Latino and the LGBT community to learn more about the Latino �16 backgrounds and support of their communities. So that's the first few active things I did. And then it wasn't until the opportunity to work... Toby Jenkins: Were you still with your boyfriend at this time? Jose Vega: Yes. Toby Jenkins: What was the next step? You're still working at the Tulsa World. Jose Vega: Yes. And then I had the opportunity to apply for a role, program coordinator at the LGBT Center. And it was a hard day because I came to Susan. I said, Susan, I'm thinking about applying. And she's like, Jose, do you really want to go? I was like, it's not that I want to go, but I really feel a calling. And she said, okay, that's a great place. So I went from the Tulsa World to the LGBT Center. But Susan was always supportive throughout that as well. I started as a program coordinator. And that's kind of where Toby and I were two partners in crime. Batman and Robin. Because he really took me under his wing. Gave me the professionalism, the guidance. He saw the Latino passion and fire that I had. Because I wanted to help those LGBTQ youth, LGBTQ Latinos, everybody under the LGBTQ umbrella, and to feel welcome. Because I saw the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center as the home that I didn't grow up or have. Or the home that I dreamed of. Because this center does mean a lot to me. So that's kind of where our role started here. And then we did a lot of programming. Dennis Neill: Jose, do you remember what year and how old you were when you joined? Jose Vega: 2015. Dennis Neill: And how old would you have been? Jose Vega: 22, 23. Dennis Neill: When you joined, how many staff were working here at the center? Jose Vega: Probably like a handful. Just three. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. And I think it was him and we had one other and a janitor and me. Jose Vega: Very small. We managed a lot of programs. Toby Jenkins: The center was packed. It was. Jose Vega: We kept it packed. Toby Jenkins: So you came on board and I remember you had a very good aptitude for public policy and engagement of our elected officials. You just naturally took to that. I know that's when you reconvened the Mayor's Youth Commission. Jose Vega: Yeah. I love that you brought that point because the Mayor's Youth Council really prepared me to talk about local politics and city officials. Every step of my world and life has got me to the point where I am and prepared me for the next. During that time, working on programming, developing new programming and events, �17 collaborating, helping take over the Equality Business Alliance. I loved the Mayor's Youth Council so much and the impact that it had on me that I was like, how can I help our youth? How can we grow the next generation as well? So I brought back the Mayor's Youth Council and we had our first cohort and it was great. We did get a lot of GSA leaders from it. That's another part that I like. Toby Jenkins: Explain what GSA is. Jose Vega: Gay Straight Alliance. A lot of those students from that first cohort developed GSAs at their school. And then that's kind of where we also collaborated and partnered with the Tulsa Youth Services and they started developing GSAs and so forth. Toby Jenkins: Campfire. Jose Vega: Campfire. The Mayor's Youth Council was really impactful. We did that, I did that every year from 2015 all the way to my last year in 2020. Toby Jenkins: So you also, two things, I've got to make sure we talk about this. Hispanic Affairs Commission, you were appointed… Jose Vega: Yeah, I joined the Hispanic Affairs Commission. I was the youngest to be appointed, and I was there for about a year and a half, and then I became the chair, also the youngest to run the Hispanic Affairs Commission for the city of Tulsa. And I worked in collaboration with city officials, our Latino partners, our Hispanic businesses, and we really helped move forward a lot of issues that our Latino youth and families go through from school to neighborhood aspects. Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you were appointed to the Mayor's Hispanic Affairs Commission. You started the Mayor's, and you were working with our allies that we work with here at the Equality Center. All of a sudden, I noticed you began to get some attention, and we began to convene and host Dream Act, would meet here. Sometimes we'd have 60 or 70 Hispanic young adults in the building. You were working with the Tulsa Metro Chamber on Mosaic and the Equality Business Alliance. Somewhere in there, some people began to notice that you could get the job done, and they started recognizing you, and you began to get some awards. Yeah. And the next thing I know, your dad is by your side, and your family's back in your life. Where in that time did you reconnect with your family? Jose Vega: It was at the age of 24 when my family came back around, and they had seen all these stories coming about. I was being reported on the news. Why are we at the Capitol today? We're here to fight for LGBTQ rights. Why are you doing this program? Because our Latino community needs access. And then my story was also being shared. Why are you fighting for homeless youth? Because I'm a lived experience of homeless youth. And my family came back around, and they apologized, and they asked for me to stop sharing my story. They said, Jose, we're sorry. We really want to try to reconnect but stop sharing your story. You know, people are looking at us, and they were seeing what they had done. And I said, you're more than welcome to come back into my life, but you cannot stop me from sharing my story. Because even today, it is still happening, and people need to know that there's a safe place, safe home. There �18 are programs out here. There are people fighting for you, so they need to know. And they said, okay. It was like, perfect. And so I'm not one to hold grudges, so we just forgave, and we learned to continue on. And my dad is by my side now. He starts showing up at Pride. He showed up one time, and I'm in tears. I'm like, oh, I thought you would never come around. And so he comes back. He comes around. I win my first award, 30 Under 30, and we had to go to Oklahoma City, and he's very proud of me. And then I win the Gracias Latino Award, and then I win the Tulsa Young Professionals, because I got involved with the Tulsa Young Professionals. And then the last one I won before leaving was the Leadership Oklahoma Award. Toby Jenkins: So you got involved with Leadership Oklahoma. They recruited you, and then you went through that, and they wanted you to create a Latino. .. Jose Vega: No, they had a Latino one already. Toby Jenkins: So you went through that cohort. Toby Jenkins: And then you said, why is there not a LGBT one? Jose Vega: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Oh, gosh, this is good. So you created that program through Leadership Tulsa. Jose Vega: Yeah, so I did the Hispanic one, and it was so impactful. It really prepared me for the Hispanic Affairs. It really helped me get the tools that I needed for my Latino community. It made me great contacts too. And I saw how impactful it was. I was like, there needs to be a specific one for our LGBTQ communities. And in collaboration with them… Toby Jenkins: You almost had to force them to do it, didn't you? They were pretty resistant. Jose Vega: There was a little bit of resistance, but we showed them from the LGBT Center. We showed our data. We showed our community people that they needed it and wanted it. Toby Jenkins: And who funded that program? Jose Vega: The Schusterman Family Foundation. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Jose Vega: And so we had two programs. It was called Lead Together. Toby Jenkins: And if I'm not mistaken, that became the first LGBTQ specific cohort in the entire nation in the leadership Oklahoma Leadership program that was networked across the country was the first one, yeah, where somebody had said, oh, we need to have one that raises up LGBT young professionals to serve nonprofits- okay. �19 Jose Vega: And we did get many people from that cohort joined the center, from volunteering to… Toby Jenkins: Went on to become on, get on the staff and serve on the board, yeah, okay. So you mentioned Tulsa Young Professionals. I just want to say how profound I am that you included that your family reconnected and that you forgave them. That is an incredible testament of your personality and your character. You were connected to Tulsa Young Professionals and you got it in your head that we needed to have a rainbow crosswalk. So with Tulsa young professionals and the mayor's office, Mayor Bynum and the City Council tell us a little bit about our rainbow crosswalks in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Jose Vega: As I was involved with Tulsa Young Professionals with the diversity team and we always did pride together and then they did one year the chalk, they did a crosswalk chalk that year and we saw how impactful it was for the community. They loved it. I would scroll on Facebook and see so many photos, and then you could see it from a mile, from down the street, on 4th Street, as you're crossing over the bridge you could see it and to me I was like we need this permanent. Tulsa Young Professionals had a grant to make Tulsa better and to what can we improve in Tulsa, and so forth. So I had applied for a crosswalk to get that funded and we won. It got approved. But we were getting pushback from City Hall. No, that is not traffic regulations, and so forth. So we got a lot of pushback and I I encouraged city officials like please help me, we need to write a letter, we need to do this. So this is where more advocacy came in. But at the end of the day, they said no. Toby Jenkins: Let's stop right there. The reason the answer is no is because crosswalks must comply with federal regulation, which also includes ADA specific. They have to be a certain color, they have to be a certain width, they have to be at certain areas. So we were mad about this. Jose Vega: We showed data from all this…from Dallas, Miami, New York, Sacramento has one. So all of these had them. So I'm like: what are you talking about? Just because it's federal, we as city officials we can decide what we want in our city and town, but no, I understand the regulations. So as I'm talking with Tulsa Young Professionals, they're like: well, Jose, what else can we do? And as I'm thinking and thinking and thinking, I was like: then we shall take over the street and called it Pride Street then. And that's when 4th Street became Pride Street and we got these pride signs and that's what, right down the center, you know? Toby Jenkins: Good, now, the reason I want to specifically talk about this is right now, while we're having this interview, all across the United States, cities are being forced to remove their rainbow crosswalks because of pushback from the Trump administration and federal regulations, and state after state governors have said we're removing them in their own homophobia and transphobia. But yet, for some reason, Tulsa's safe because we have street signs because street signs are controlled- a part of municipal code, not federal code. The lesson I want this interview is: ask big and grab what you can get. �20 Jose Vega: Yeah, well, how I word that is: shoot for the moon and if you land among the stars. Toby Jenkins: Okay, very good. I've got a bunch of other things. Any questions, Mr. Neill? Dennis Neill: Let's talk about your growth within OkEq, your changing positions, and then also we want to touch on your hate crime or hate crimes during your experience as an adult. Jose Vega: I started as program coordinator, and then we've had such great success and growth. I had the opportunity to get a promotion and become program director. And then deputy director. I ran pride. I loved it, every moment of it. We fundraised for pride. I loved the Gala, all of those aspects. And then I was learning everything from Toby, and he shared with me on how we need to be more active within the Capitol. Take students, take youth out there, their voices, write letters. We did a lot of letter campaigns and so forth, that I said, Toby, how can I learn more and take a more leadership role? And I had the opportunity to become deputy director, and I helped make executive decisions within the organization to make visible, to make our spot and space even more visible in different areas. So, that's when we were very active in that portion, you know. Toby Jenkins: Tell us a bit about the hate crime incident that you had happen. Jose Vega: There was a moment where I, it was during flu season, because I was so sick, and I go to Walgreens, and I go pick up some medication as I'm waiting in line… I have this Revolution shirt that I love, because, you know, it is, we were trying to take back what the state is taking away from us. And even to today, they're taking even more away from us. So, that Revolution shirt, I still have it. It doesn't fit me anymore, you know, it got a little thicker. I know, the Revolution continues. I remember working on that video, too. Pride t-shirt, the pride rainbow flag. And as I'm waiting in line, this man just turns around and calls me fucking Mexican faggot. And he starts getting pushy and trying to cause a reaction from me. And I'm like, just please leave me alone. I'm just trying to check out. He's just picking and picking and picking at me, and I ignore it. And that's kind of what we do with, we encourage our constituents, that if they're being bullied or targeted, do not... they're just trying to get a reaction from you. Try to get somewhere safe. So, the safe place where I was trying to run to, because nobody was doing anything, was to my car. So, as this person's just nitpicking, picking me, and calling me names, homophobic slurs and racial slurs in the Walgreens drugstore. I walk out, continues. It's not till I start unlocking my car that where he attacks me. He starts hitting me inside the car, and I'm pushing him out. Grab the door, lock it. He starts spitting and then breaking my mirror. But just the adrenaline, the fear of, I could probably, something really bad could be happening to me right now. And we've seen, during our time here at the center, a lot of lives lost in this way. From getting attacked, assaulted, just for being who you are. So, I thought that was my time. �21 And he left. We called the cops, and something that struck me was, the only reason we will consider this a hate crime is because they did racial slurs. I was like, what about the homophobic slurs? He called me faggot and started spitting at me, assaulting me. He's like, that's not a protected class. But because he said, Mexican and go back to Mexico and all that, that's how we'll classify this as a hate crime. And to me, I was like, how is only half of who I am protected? No. And that's kind of where we started to do more advocacy from municipal to capitol. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So how did the cops handle the issue? Professionally, or were you disappointed in the response by them and any other legal authorities? Jose Vega: No, I was not. I wasn't disappointed at all. They really handled it well. Dennis Neill: I believe he got arrested, didn’t he? Jose Vega: They did get caught. Years later on. Years later. But the thing is that they kept that case open until years later on he was associated with that hate crime. Dennis Neill: And with regard to that terrible incident that you experienced, you were very visible with OkEq these five years that you were there. How about other incidents of both the good and the bad? E-mails, calls, threatening you, threatening friends. Did you experience any of that or was this kind of a one-off, this one incident? Jose Vega: No, no…Working at the center, you are visible as a target. Toby and I would share a lot of fearful moments. You know, when the bullets came through the center, when there was a drive-by, that was a scary time. What if that happened while we were here? I'm very glad that we had bullet resistant… Toby Jenkins: We installed that later. Jose Vega: But that's scary. And then also my car being vandalized multiple times. Dennis Neill: While parked here? Jose Vega: Not while parked here. But parked at home. Slashed tires. Toby Jenkins: I think that happened at a gay bar. Jose Vega: At a gay bar. I knew the risk that it came. But I also knew the reward of what we needed to do. Toby Jenkins: One of the things that I want to make sure we include in this portion of the story, we're talking about the incident, and I don't remember the exact date, when the center, someone shot up the front windows and the front door. Dennis Neill: March 6, 2017. There's the door [leading into the archives]. Toby Jenkins: Olivia caught her ride at work that morning, and she got here at 8 o'clock and called it in the police. But what was hanging up on the porch? What was hanging on the sign? Jose Vega: Immigrants are welcome here. �22 Toby Jenkins: So we never know for sure if they targeted us because we were the LGBTQ center or that we were advocating it's a safe place for the immigrant community. Jose Vega: Regardless of which one it was, it's the Equality Center. The Equality Center is for everyone. Race, orientation, gender identity, or documentation. Toby Jenkins: We were doing a lot of work at the Capitol, and we would take how many students to the Capitol? Jose Vega: Like two busloads? I think one time it was. Toby Jenkins: We'd take over 100 kids, and you would march them through the Capitol. And legislators would just run for cover. They wouldn't have to talk to us. Jose Vega: I do remember us chasing one down. I was like, no, no, no. Where are you going? Toby Jenkins: Now, I can't remember. Were you with us when we were up there and they sent out the memo that there's cross-dressers in the bathroom? See if you can tell a little bit about that story. Jose Vega: Oh, yes. So we all arrive, and every youth is like, oh, where do we goto the restrooms? We show them where the restrooms are. Then, I think a little before, after lunch, they send a memo saying there's cross-dressers in the building. Watch out. They're using the restrooms. And do not use the restrooms. Go use these private ones. And it was offensive for the youth. Toby Jenkins: And that's the image I will forever remember. Jose and a bunch of young people chasing the Lieutenant Governor across the rotunda of the Capitol, demanding an answer. Jose Vega: They were avoiding us. Toby Jenkins: And, of course, by the time we got on the bus to come home, when we arrived in Tulsa, the streets were full of TV cameras and news sources. And within two days, one of the persons who's running for governor had issued an apology to the community. Jose Vega: They saw the mistake they made, yeah. And they apologized. Toby Jenkins: Now, how did you feel about that situation? Did you feel we're not putting up with it? Jose Vega: What was going through my mind during that time? Yeah. One, I love the youth taking charge. And we put them in front of the cameras. They expressed their feelings. So, to me, it was a proud moment to see the youth come together and see the change that they could create. And, yes, we accept apologies. But there's a lot more work needing to be done. So, thank you for the apology. Now let's create that apology into policies. Toby Jenkins: Okay. So it was during this time that we kept getting phone calls on the helpline from all across the country or all across the state. So we were getting as many �23 phone calls locally on the helpline as we were from rural communities all across the state, and so you were instrumental in rolling out our chapter establishment. Jose Vega: But part of that I want to share, the story of when you and I were working late one night, because that that that was what ignited my fire even more. It's like you already have a fire and just pour more gas into it. It was when Toby and I were working late, and there was many nights we worked late. You know, prepare the next thing. Toby Jenkins: It was like midnight. Jose Vega: Midnight, it was around midnight and as we're walking out of the center, on our right corner, on the right, I see we see a young man with his bare footed, bleeding and crying, and we look over. They share their name and they said: I just turned 18, and my family has kicked me out for being gay. And I walked from the [Oklahoma] Panhandle to the center because I saw on the internet that there was this place, and I just got here walking from the Panhandle to me and then we bring him in, we bring them in, we give them water, and to me I'm like we need to do something for all the LGBT people in Oklahoma. We need to let them know that there's something here but there's also made something in their hometown, because seeing that, we needed to do something. So that's kind of where we started doing these chapters- OkEq chapters- and we had one in Norman, in Stillwater, McAllister, Bartlesville. Toby Jenkins: We traveled all over the state. We went to Altus, Oklahoma. Jose Vega: Yeah, we wanted to make sure that every Okla queer, I think, and we came up with a logo too for that too. They knew that there was a home here. Toby Jenkins: And that they could organize in their own communities. You were there when we organized the chapter in McAllister, Oklahoma and on January 1st, 2020, Dustin Parker, who was one of the members- founding members- of our chapter in McAllister, Oklahoma, he was murdered and they just recently arrested his murderer. Yeah, and do you remember traveling…I think you traveled with Dennis down there for the memorial service, where a thousand McAllister folks were standing in a field outside of their little gay bar across from the prison, behind the prison cemetery. Jose Vega: Dustin was a staple in his community and he really showed what activism looks like- grassroots- and shared his story. Toby Jenkins: I can remember that night. What was your thoughts? While we're standing in that field with Dennis, the founder of Oklahomans for Equality, in McAllister, Oklahoma, to see how that city was grieving and also showing their support for LGBTQ people, did you have thoughts? Jose Vega: Yeah, as much as there's much more love in Oklahoma than hate, there's much more love, and love trumps all hate that there's out there. So seeing this small town come together for a community member- they didn't care about their gender, their identity, they came together for somebody who helps the community- come together show me that we need to do more for our state. We need to help our communities. They �24 made the- it's a small percentage- that are against LGBTQ community members. Because Oklahoma is about love. Our community is about care and support. That's why we have that southern love and charm. And we, I love that you always said, we're the prairie gays, you know. We have our lesbians chopping wood and helping build homes. And our gays churning butter to make sure we are fed and taken care of. And I see that, that's what we are. And all of those quotes stay with me. And I do share it still in California. And I was like, and in California they always tell me, oh that's a flyover state, who's all there? And I was like, there's prairie gays there. Our lesbians building homes, chopping wood, and our gays churning butter. That's my stomping ground. Toby Jenkins: That's funny. Let's go ahead and catch our viewers up. Because the pandemic comes. And then you eventually made some career choices. Before we talk about you going to do missionary work among the heathen in California... we sent you as a home missionary to California. You also, through collaboration with our foundations, created some programs that allowed you to travel nationally, internationally, and see LGBTQ people around the world. Jose Vega: Yeah, the Kaiser Family Foundation and the Schusterman Family Foundation, they support our LGBT community. They supported our cause. They allowed us to go to Creating Change, which is a conference that helped us prepare, you know, and learn what other people are doing and create change in Oklahoma. I did have the opportunity to join the Schusterman Reality Program. Toby Jenkins: Charles and Lynn Schusterman Family Foundation Reality Program. Jose Vega: Reality Program. And their first one was on LGBTQ pride. Bringing LGBTQ leaders from across the country and going to go to Israel and get to see the great work that they're doing on LGBTQ aspects. And they have an LGBTQ elected official helping. And it was a beautiful experience getting to hear stories, sharing their cause, what they're doing to advance, and then get to see Tel Aviv Pride, which is one of the largest prides, come together and share that it's one love that we're trying to build here. Toby Jenkins: In your experience with these opportunities that you were allowed to travel internationally, because you always went to represent our center at International Pride, InterPride. So you went to several of those international conferences. Your thoughts when you've traveled internationally and all the divisive things humanity has that make us hate each other and... Jose Vega: We're fighting ourselves. Our inner selves. Each other. To me, that's not what the cause is. We have enough people that are not part of our community fighting us. Why should we fight among ourselves? We should focus our energy elsewhere. Toby Jenkins: If our panelists have anything else, jump in here. You decided to go to California. Jose Vega: But during my time at Oklahomans for Equality, I've had many opportunities. I have great opportunities to travel, to see things, to create change. I love every moment of my life that during my time here, it's become maybe the man I am today. But there was one thing where I've never experienced living somewhere else. And I felt in my heart of hearts that I need to have that experience. I've traveled, I've seen, I've done, but I've �25 never lived anywhere else. And I'm the first to come out as gay in my family. First to graduate high school. First to get a bachelor's, and now to get a master's. In 2019, I told Toby, I want to experience living somewhere else. I may come back, but I need to have that experience. And so I started sending my resume everywhere. And COVID came, February, January, offers started getting pulled out. We didn't know what was happening. And I had two offers, the LGBT Community Center in Albany, New York, and the LGBT Community Center in Sacramento. And then in August, I made the decision and I got the Sacramento offer, moved there in October, and I've been there ever since. I've had multiple opportunities out there too. So from the LGBT Center, I focused on COVID. Our LGBT community members didn't have access to COVID testing, vaccines, and so we were focused on that. But also, HIV rates were going up because people were not getting tested. But also, we're now staying six feet apart and we're still having sex. And so we focused on at-home HIV test kits. We opened a new LGBT Center out there as well. Toby Jenkins: Medical Center. Jose Vega: Yeah. And so I helped facilitate that conversation. So everything that I did in Oklahoma prepared me for that because we opened a new center. We created little chapters. I helped with pride. I was there for two years. And then I had the opportunity to think and see, you know what, I think I'm ready to come back home. And there was a moment where I came home and wanted to apply and applied for the role to run the center. And at that time, you had already retired. Unfortunately, it wasn't in the cards. And I decided to go back. I said, okay. So I went back. Dennis Neill: And just from perspective, this is June of 2022, correct? Jose Vega: Yeah. June of 2022. That was the last pride year and we talked about it. And I said, Toby, I loved everything I learned out here. I saw what programs and policies and things that we could do. I think I'm ready to take the reins. Due to other factors, it didn't happen. But I had the opportunity to go back to California and work with the Office of AIDS, the state public health department and work with the Office of AIDS. And I worked there for two years and a half helping across the state to develop programs to enhance their HIV testing, education, and capacity building. Toby Jenkins: You also got involved in their public broadcasting system. You want to talk a little bit about that. Jose Vega: Yeah. So my master's is in public health promotion and education. And I'm a firm believer that education is key to getting community involved. And so I started working with PBS and NPR and access channels to build educational programming in English and Spanish. And so we built, we did, it's called County Edition. And our first episode was on sexual health. And it was such a big success that they were like, let's replicate it. But now it's completely in Spanish. And it consists of a host, of a doctor out in the public getting information. �26 And from that, I collected data. And it's shocking that so many people still believe that you can get an STI from sitting on a public toilet. And it's 2026 now and people still believe that. So to me, education still needs to continue growing as STI and HIV rates continue to go up. And all of these fund cuts that are happening at a federal level where HIV prevention and STI prevention are getting pulled out, we're going to see a high rise on HIV infections and even co-infections with a rise of syphilis. And that's going to hurt our mothers. And I say mothers by childbirth because the rate of congenital syphilis has been skyrocketing. And those are little young ones. Toby Jenkins: And so you talk a bit about your master's. What was your master's on? You just completed it. That's why we're getting this interview. Jose has come home for a family celebration to celebrate his graduation from his master's program. So he wanted Pebbles to see what Oklahoma looked like. So he brought his companion dog. Talk a little bit about your master's work there. Jose Vega: Yeah, so my it was a focus on HIV education within Latino communities and what I love about it is the program that we've developed is PrEP 15 years ago next year It'll be 15 years where PrEP was the first medication to be approved to Prevent HIV and I'll share a little bit of my work about PrEP here in Oklahoma. As a gay young man I know that I was even more highly potential exposure to HIV, so I started advocating for PrEP and talking about PrEP that I wanted to be on PrEP. Many doctors here in California would say I would come in to the office and say hey, I want to get on PrEP medication What is that? Mary Bishop-Baldwin: You mean here in Oklahoma? Jose Vega: Here in Oklahoma, so this was before…taking you back into back into time during my time here at the LGBT Center where I was like, I want to get on PrEP Many doctors said no, I don't feel comfortable with that. I don't understand it. I don't treat AIDS patients. And I said well, this is before before I get HIV and this is to prevent it. Nope, I don't accept your lifestyle It was constantly and it was during my time here at the center because I had Community Care insurance at that time and no doctor would accept me or see me for PrEP. There was many times where I needed PrEP postexposure so having access to that too. That's kind of what drove my master's degree and advocate for that because that still happens in California even totoday. As an Oklahoman, I would think that Oh, California is more liberal, more open, more accepting. There's more access. The honest truth is it's not, there's still a lot a lot to do. My program and proposal and project development was - PrEP was approved in 2016-2015 15 years ago. So let's give PrEP a Quinceanera, It'll bring Latino communities together. It'll bring trans communities together. It'll bring youth together because as a Latino man, there's I was in about 15 Quinceaneras growing up. My cousin. Toby Jenkins: And a Quinceanera is… Jose Vega: Quinceanera is a coming-of-age for a young woman that they are from childhood into womanhood at 15 and my cousins did one. There's gonna be one tomorrow for my nieces. So I was like, let's give PrEP a Quinceanera. And so we're �27 building this program in California in the Central Valley where every Latino will be like, why are they giving this medication a Quinceanera? I had one like we're about to do one for my daughter. It starts the conversation and said perfect. Let's tell you about this medication because our Latinos make the highest population on HIV in California of new infections So prevention is key and that's kind of what I do and that's my role because I know the barriers I had to access in Oklahoma so that's the work of my masters. Toby Jenkins: I don't think we're really able to talk about the company you work for. Jose Vega: No, but what my role - I'm the HIV community liaison For Sacramento and Central Valley. I've now been promoted to the Northern California Region where I come into organizations and clinics to help with their protocols, their workflows, education, support their program capacity, building evaluations, collect data. But also bring the community together to help end HIV. Toby Jenkins: Okay So I guess you're organizing chapters again. Jose Vega: Exactly from everything I learned from Oklahomans for Equality prepared me. Toby Jenkins: We're coming to the end unless our panelists have any other questions for you. Dennis Neill: Jose, where do you see your future going? What's your passion in the next five to ten years? Jose Vega: My passion is to help elevate and grow others, you know, and what was done to me what in support for me I want to give it back. That's always been my love and passion. I had the opportunity to do The mayor's Youth Council at high school, so I wanted youth to have that opportunity. I had the opportunity to grow and develop at the LGBT Center, so I want to help other youth other LGBTQ professionals grow and develop. I had the opportunity to move of California and help with HIV elimination. I'm doing that too. My goal in life is to continue doing that prepare the next generation because there's only so much I'm gonna be able to do or get to that we need to prepare our next LGBTQ warriors. I tell Toby we're in a slingshot era where yes, they're pulling us back. But the moment they let go they're gonna catapult us forward where we're better prepared now. Of all the rights they've taken from us, we're better prepared to learn how they went around it to build better policies and procedures. A better understanding of what we need to do to prepare our next generation because they're going to continue attacking us. I want to create a space where every LGBTQ person can live, thrive, and be happy. And during this time, it breaks my heart to hear all of our Oklahoma prairies move and leave away, and that leaves no voices out there. So I want to give back to community. I want to continue doing what I'm doing and help every aspect of our population. Dennis Neill: So you see yourself professionally staying for the foreseeable future within the LGBTQ community doing this work? �28 Jose Vega: In the LGBTQ movement, yes. I will continue to dedicate my life to the LGBTQ movement, at one capacity or another. Toby Jenkins: Any questions? Mary Bishop-Baldwin: No questions. I just want to say that your story is the most incredible that I think I've ever heard. How you've come from such beginnings and had to overcome so much trauma and adversity, and you stayed with it until you achieved goals every time. You never took no for an answer, and you knew your worth, your personal worth, and you weren't going to let somebody else establish boundaries for what you could be. And look what you've done. I admire you so much. Jose Vega: Thank you. Thank you. And that's what I want. I want to inspire others. I want them to see you can do it. There's still more to you. Something that we always told our youth, you know, it gets better. Keep at it. It keeps getting better. Toby Jenkins: Sometimes. It may get tougher, but it also can get better. While we think about that, let's say, do you have a message for the future, for people who come after us and for people who may review this and are just starting out? Do you have a message for them? Jose Vega: Continue believing in you. There's people that love you. There's home here. Believe in you. You have to believe in yourself. It may seem tough right now. It may seem like the world is against you. It may seem like there's no safe spaces. Come together. Come together and create it. Come together and join forces. Find your people. Your people are out there. You just need to find them. And where you can find them is here at the center. I'm a firm believer of the center. I love it. There were many times where I wanted to give up, but I found community here and purpose, inspiration. Every single person here in this room has inspired me one way or the other. From Dennis in a little closet behind the bar doing the helpline. From Toby helping lead the charge for creating change and sharing that his first job was the portapotties at Pride and helping with trash. And from Mary advocating for our marriage equality when the time seemed that we could never achieve it. These are all stepping stones. This center was built from block to block. We need you to be the second layer of block and glue. Toby Jenkins: You've been joining us today. If you'll say your name the way you like to say it. Jose Vega: Jose Emanuel Vega. Toby Jenkins: And his sidekick Pebbles. Pebbles, you did a great job during the interview. You've been joining us today here in the Joe and Nancy McDonald Rainbow Library and the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center, headquarters of Oklahomans for Equality that sits on Pride Street in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Dennis Neill, founder of Oklahomans for Equality, Mary Bishop-Baldwin and Toby Jenkins have been your interviewing panel. Thank you so much, Jose. And congratulations on your Master's, your promotion at work. And thank you for not forgetting us and your family in Oklahoma. �29 Jose Vega: The revolution will always continue. Addendum: Top photo: Sign hanging at the Equality Center on March 6, 2017 when the windows and door were damaged by 13 pellet shots. Bottom Photo: Mayor G.T. Bynum, Jose and others celebrating the dedication of Pride Street on June 1, 2018. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Jose Vega Interview Subject The topic of the resource Jose Emmanuel Vega Oral History Project Interview from May 22, 2026 Description An account of the resource Join us for an inspiring interview with José Emanuel Vega, a dedicated LGBTQ+ advocate from Tulsa, Oklahoma, now making a difference in California. He shares his powerful story of overcoming trauma, fighting for LGBTQ+ rights, serving as Program Director and Deputy Director at Oklahomans for Equality, and building community through advocacy, education, and leadership. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jose Vega, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 22, 2026 2026 advocacy AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV prevention California coming out community conversion therapy Dennis Neill hate crimes HIV prevention HIV/AIDs human rights immigration interview Jose Emmanuel Vega Jose Vega leadership oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Toby Jenkins transcript Tulsa video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/0884be749d2bca1e9b7af0e9c855b417.pdf 6d72fee2b5f92d1ad992dc094c6fcc5a PDF Text Text ��������� Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2014] Estimating the Economic Boost of Marriage for Same-Sex Couples in Oklahoma Description An account of the resource A 9 page document from the Williams Institute by Justin M. O'Neill, Christy Mallory, and M. V. Lee Badgett in July 2014 titled "Estimating the Economic Boost for Same-Sex Couples in Oklahoma". They predict over a million dollars in tax revenue within the first year same-sex marriages are legalized within the state. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource July 2014 Subject The topic of the resource 2014 Williams Institute Report Estimating the Economic Boost of Marriage for Same-Sex Couples in Oklahoma Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Justin M. O'Neill, Christy Mallory, M. V. Lee Badgett Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource The Williams Institute, UCLA School of Law 2014 Christy Mallory Gay marriage gay marriage in Oklahoma Justin M. O'Neill Justin O'Neill legalization of same sex marriage LGBT marriage M. V. Lee Badgett marriage marriage equality Oklahoma gay marriage Oklahoma same sex marriage same sex marriage same sex marriage in Oklahoma same-sex marriage state revenue Taxes The Williams Institute UCLA UCLA School of Law University of California University of California Los Angeles University of California Los Angeles (UCLA) University of California Los Angeles School of Law University of California School of Law Williams Institute https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/6f9e14b4d5bc78930f9b24b800096097.pdf 0da16c463ff9828c91e3894ed18ee81a PDF Text Text ���� https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/104980bddf6a1174d47eba7b04bcaaf1.txt cce7e851f93ed2230b5fe0e8ccd2a945 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Text Any textual data included in the document [Page 1]<br />LEGAL SEMINAR<br />KATHY NELSON<br />Executive Coordinator <br />AIDS Legal Resources Project<br />April 22, 1999<br />7:00 pm<br /><strong>TULSA GAY COMMUNITY SERVICES CENTER</strong><br />38th and Peoria<br />(The Pride Center)<br /><br />[Page 2]<br /><strong>OKLAHOMA LESBIAN AND GAY LAWYERS ASSOCIATION</strong><br />P.O. Box 3352<br />Tulsa, Oklahoma 74101<br />(918) 583-7750<br /><br /><strong>VIA U.S. Mail</strong><br />Tom Neal, Publisher/Editor<br />Tulsa Family News<br />POB 4140<br />Tulsa, OK 74159-0140<br /><br /><strong>Re: Know Your Legal Rights Seminar</strong><br /><br />Dear Tom:<br />The Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights and the Oklahoma Lesbian and Gay Lawyers Association would like to invite you and any other interested people to attend a seminar on legal issues affecting persons with HIV/AIDS. The seminar will be led by Kathy Nelson on <strong>Thursday, February 18, 1999, at 7:30 p.m. at the Tulsa Gay Community Services Center (formerly the Pride Center) at 38th and Peoria.</strong> Ms. Nelson will give an overview of some of the legal issues faced by persons with HIV/AIDS and the pro bono assistance provided by the AIDS Legal Resource Project.<br />Ms. Nelson is the Executive Coordinator for the AIDS Legal Resource Project. She graduated from Oklahoma State University and Oklahoma City University School of Law. She has had a private practice in the areas of oil and gas law, family law, estate planning and probate law. Ms. Nelson is also a board member of CarePoint, Inc., a non-profit consortium of AIDS resources and education which coordinates health care and support services for those with HIV/AIDS.<br />The AIDS Legal Resource Project was created three years ago to empower people with HIV/AIDS with the knowledge and assistance needed to maintain control over their lives. The Project offers effective and free legal assistance to those who qualify by connecting them to one of the more than 150 private attorneys statewide.<br />Attorneys on the Project's Panel offer help in several critical areas. If you have been denied social security benefits, an attorney can help collect the necessary documentation for the Administrative Hearing. In fact, having an attorney present at the Hearing increases the chance of being awarded benefits by more than 50%. The AIDS Legal Resource Project also gives advice regarding other state and federal entitlement programs.<br /><br />[Page 3]<br />The Project also assists clients who have been unfairly denied health, life or disability insurance. Information is available on how to keep and extend insurance coverage after work is no longer possible.<br />If you are fired from a job, denied housing or equal access to health care<br />because of your HIV status, an attorney can file a Complaint with the appropriate authorities. If necessary, the representation will continue through the various stages of the process, including litigation and settlement negotiations. When HIV/AIDS is directly involved, adoption and other family law matters can be handled by an attorney with expertise in that area. Finally, the Project can help end harassment by creditors.<br />To learn how you can make take more control over these and other related issues, attend the seminar at the Tulsa Gay Community Services Center. For more information, please call (918) 743-4297.<br />Sincerely,<br />KERRY R. LEWIS<br /><br />Enclosure<br /><br />[Page 4]<br />OLGLA<br />Post Office Box 3352<br />Tulsa, Oklahoma 74101<br /><br />Tom Neal<br />Publisher/Editor<br />Tulsa Family News<br />Post Office Box 4140<br />Tulsa, Oklahoma 74159-0140 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [1999] Kathy Nelson's Legal Seminar Subject The topic of the resource Legal Seminar by Kathy Nelson Announcement Description An account of the resource Three documents regarding the April 22, 1999 seminar by Kathy Nelson, Executive Coordinator, AIDS Legal Resource Project. Document 1: Seminar announcement with time, date and location. Document 2: A letter to Tom Neal from Kerry R. Lewis inviting Tom and others to a seminar on legal issues affecting persons with HIV/AIDS lead by Kathy Nelson. Document 3: The envelope containing the letter addressed to Tom Neal from Oklahoma Lesbian and Gay Lawyers Association (OLGLA). Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource March 16, 1999 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kathy Nelson Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Oklahoma Lesbian and Gay Lawyers Association (OLGLA) 1999 AIDS AIDS Legal Resource Project AIDS/HIV AIDS/HIV discrimination CarePoint CarePoint Inc. 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For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2005] Pride Photos from Kelly Carter Subject The topic of the resource Pride Photos Description An account of the resource Photos from the 2005 Pride celebration contributed by Kelly Carter. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kelly Carter Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005 2005 AIDS AIDS Memorial Quilt AIDS Quilt AIDS/HIV Bill Fuller Billy Fuller Billy Ray Fuller cater David Wayne Robinson HIV/AIDs june kelly Kelly Carter Morgan Zac Sweeny NAMES Project parade Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) PFLAG PFLAG Stillwater photo photos Pride Pride celebration pride Parade Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2006] Kelly Kirby Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource May 6, 2006 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on May 6, 2006. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Born on November 25, 1953, he graduated from high school in 1971. Faced with a draft number of 25, Kelly joined the Air Force in 1972. While very closeted during his service, while based in California, he would make trips to Santa Barbara and a few other locations to some bars and on occasion attended the Metropolitan Community Church in Santa Barbara as he was dealing with his sexual orientation. After leaving the military in 1975, he returned to Kansas and got involved with a cult Christian Group, The Way. In 1977, he married and they had 4 children. In 1980, they moved to Oklahoma City, he soon started a CPA practice and by 1986 relocated to Tulsa. He joined Homosexuals Anonymous as part of dealing with his conflicts with sexuality, family and religion. In 1990, his wife and Kelly agreed to separate and eventually divorce. He became an HIV tester with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights in 1991 and discusses his further involvement with the gay community and TOHR, serving on the board in the early 1990s and treasurer, president and later serving as TOHR’s accountant. He became active with the local PFLAG Chapter and with the support of Nancy McDonald, joined the national board of PFLAG in 1993. He reviews the difficult environment in the 1993-1994 time period when the Tulsa Human Rights Commission proposed some ordinance changes to address LGBTQ discrimination. Subject The topic of the resource Kelly Kirby Oral History Project Interview from May 6, 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kelly Kirby, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2006 AIDS/HIV Air Force available at Center discrimination HIV HIV testing HIV/AIDs Homosexuals Anonymous interview Kelly Kirby Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Metropolitan Community Church Nancy McDonald OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays Parents Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG) PFLAG PFLAG Tulsa Chapter The Way TOHR TOHR Board of Directors transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Board of Directors Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights HIV Testing video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/b418b81f6d3161bea3adbd38969f2ee7.mp4 6ef8807e5b1b421285ba179ca06e3042 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/56ba85886deb39b4fd73cb848661163a.pdf 9d05b88c5606cc5f8d604ff051d3c330 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Kelly Kirby Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: April 9th, 2025 Edited By: Dennis Neill using Reduct.Video February 17, 2026 Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �About Kelly Kirby Keywords LGBTQ, equality, inclusion, military service, advocacy, personal journey, Kelly Kirby, Oklahoma, history Takeaways ● Kelly Kirby shares his journey of self-discovery and acceptance. ● He became aware of his sexual orientation at a young age. ● Military service provided a unique perspective on identity and acceptance. ● Kelly faced challenges in relationships due to societal expectations. ● He became an advocate for LGBTQ rights in his community. ● His experiences shaped his views on equality and inclusion. ● Kelly's family played a significant role in his life and advocacy. ● He faced threats and discrimination for being openly gay. ● Kelly's involvement in various organizations highlights his commitment to advocacy. ● His reflections on life emphasize the importance of authenticity and acceptance. Summary 2 �This conversation with Kelly Kirby explores his life journey, from his early awareness of his sexual orientation to his military service and subsequent advocacy for LGBTQ rights. Kelly shares personal stories about his family, relationships, and the challenges he faced as an openly gay man in Oklahoma. His commitment to equality and inclusion is evident through his involvement in various organizations and his reflections on the importance of authenticity in one's life. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Kelly Kirby and Background 02:53 Early Life and Education 06:08 Family Dynamics and Community Influence 09:08 Awareness of Sexual Orientation 12:07 Coming Out and Early Relationships 15:00 Military Experience and Identity 17:50 Life in the Military and Relationships 20:53 Navigating Identity in a Conservative Environment 40:01 Exploring the Diversity of Gay Bars 44:00 Life in the Military: Relationships and Identity 46:57 Awareness of Military Policies and Purges 50:13 Navigating Personal Identity and Family Dynamics 53:48 The Impact of Religious Beliefs on Sexual Identity 01:00:00 Transitioning from Religious Constraints to Self-Acceptance 01:05:01 The Journey of Self-Discovery and Acceptance 01:09:59 Building a New Life: Career and Family Dynamics 01:14:59 Reflections on World AIDS Day and Personal Advocacy 01:20:57 Coming Out and Embracing Identity 01:21:54 Leadership in LGBTQ+ Organizations 01:29:15 Media Representation and Advocacy 01:34:09 Challenges of Visibility and Advocacy 01:39:08 Recognition and Legacy 01:46:06 Family Life and Personal Relationships 3 �01:48:12 Final Thoughts and Community Involvement Kelly Kirby Oral History Interview 2025 Toby Jenkins: Good afternoon, can you tell me your name? Kelly Kirby: Kelly Kirby, K-E-L-L-Y-K-I-R-B-Y. Toby Jenkins: And we're here in your beautiful home, and we wanted to be in front of this beautiful portrait back here that you have, I just love it, kind of fits with our theme today, we're talking about equality and inclusion and LGBTQ history in this part of the country. How old are you, and when were you born? Kelly Kirby: I'm 71, I was born in 1953. Toby Jenkins: And where were you born? Kelly Kirby: Pittsburgh, Kansas. Toby Jenkins: Pittsburgh, Kansas. How did you, what brought you to Oklahoma? Kelly Kirby: Well, after grad school, college, Philips Petroleum recruited me, and so I came to Bartlesville, and then, after a year, I was like, I don't want this kind of a career, and so I went to a tax accountant down in Oklahoma City, and worked for him for a couple years, and then I hung out my shingle, and that was in 1982. And, yeah, and that was in Oklahoma City, and ultimately, in 1986, I moved up here because I had more clients in Tulsa than Oklahoma City, and I've been here ever since, 1986. Toby Jenkins: And that would have been, you were a CPA. Kelly Krby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Where did you graduate high school, Pittsburgh? Kelly Kirby: Well, so Pittsburgh State University is one of the state colleges, but they had a teacher school when it was first started, and so I went to a, what I would call, guinea pig school, because we were on the campus, and I went, my kindergarten through my master's in business administration in that same campus. Toby Jenkins: Now, were, was this open to everybody, or did you have to have some kind of unusual academic achievement, or did they see promise in you that you were allowed to attend this particular school, this private school on this campus? Kelly Kirby: Right, well, it was the balance of the students, which were almost, I would say, in any given year, 30 students on each grade level, from K to 12, and about half of them, I would say, were kids of somebody that had something to do with the university, professors, et cetera, kids, and then the other half was from the community of Pittsburgh. So, Pittsburgh is 20,000 people, but we also had 7,000 students on that campus. 4 �Toby Jenkins: Now, what did your parents do in this community? Was this where they had always lived? I mean, were they associated with the university? Kelly Kirby: No, my dad actually grew up in Iowa on a farm, and he, in World War II, he came to Pittsburgh, Kansas to a flying school, and then when he was there, he met my mom, and then he went off to war, and then came back and married her, and she was there, that was her home at Pittsburgh where she was born. Toby Jenkins: And what did your father do for a career after he got out of the military? Kelly Kirby: Well, he actually stayed in the military reserve as an officer. So he had, I don't know, one weekend a month that he had to go a couple of days or something like that, and then a couple of weeks once a year. And he did that for twenty-five or six or seven years. I forget exactly how many. But then also, he went on to become a postman. And that thing came from my mother's side of the thing, because her dad, her uncle, her mother, my grandma, my grandpa, my uncle, great-uncles, and all that, were all in the Postal Service. So my dad retired in the mid-'60s from the military and in the mid-'70s from the post office and had two pensions. Toby Jenkins: Now, did your mother work outside the home, or did she? Kelly Kirby: Well, so my mother was a telephone, what do you call it? Toby Jenkins: Operator? Kelly Kirby: Operator, yeah, exactly. And this was, you know, is this Mrs., you know? If you think Lily Tomlin, that was my mother. Toby Jenkins: One ringy dingy. Kelly Kirby: Yes, exactly, exactly. They started having kids. They had three together. My older sister Susie was born in 47. And so six years later, I came along. And then Linda was the last, and she was born in 56. Susie now still lives in Joplin. Linda's in Wichita, and I'm in Tulsa. So we're still, none of us are still in Pittsburgh, but we're, it's an easy way to see each other. And we have good… Toby Jenkins: Now, I'm just curious, what year did you technically graduate from high school, even though you were going to this school on the Pittsburgh campus? Kelly Kirby: 1971 was when I got my, and I want to just put a little piece in here. My mother died when I was five. And, you know, Linda and Susie being the same amount of, she had cancer, and she died at the age of 36. My dad remarried three years later to a widow whose husband had been killed in a fire. And she came along with a son, one child. It's 10 years older than me. So I have a brother also, although he is now deceased. But so that was four kids, and we just meshed. And so I just wanted to put that in there. Toby Jenkins: Now, did your father and your stepmother have any children together? Kelly Kirby: No. 5 �Toby Jenkins: OK, well, I was going to ask you, you graduated in 1971. You went to this school that was on Pittsburgh State University's campus. Was it integrated? Kelly Kirby: Yes, I would say. I don't think that I could say what their policy was. But the kids that were in my classroom, you know, they might be from the Far East or the Near East because of the university. And there was a Black family back across the alley from where in our house was six blocks from the university. So I mean, we just I didn't really know what integration was. It just was, looking back. We're going to get to this, but I, in 1972, after one first semester of college, I enlisted in the United States Air Force. Vietnam was going on, and anyway, and my dad was military, so it was kind of that, and I was going to, my dad flew, actually, because that, I told you before, and so I thought, oh, well, I want to go be in the Air Force and be a pilot. Then I went into the Air Force, totally integrated, I mean, I don't know, somebody may have other, I don't want to make it all whatever, but for the time, I guess, I don't know, but it was just, color was blind to me. Toby Jenkins: So you had gone to school, even though you had gone to school in the 60s, you don't remember integration being an issue, unlike it was here in Tulsa, where they were threatened if they didn't integrate, they were going to force them, they were going to force them to. Kelly Kirby: I don't think that the university would have to have done that. I don't know what, before me, or whatever, and there was, Pittsburgh had two other schools also, one was the public school, and they also had a Catholic school, so there's, there were three, you know, full K through 12 in town. Don't know about, I had some friends from the other schools, but I don't really, I couldn't say what it was like for them, but for me, I, when I really, I guess maybe, probably in the latter 60s, I became aware, I suppose, of people that were being discriminated against. Toby Jenkins: So we talked a little bit about how you came to Oklahoma, I'm just curious, when were you aware of, how do you, what is your sexual orientation, how do you identify? Kelly Kirby: I'm gay. Toby Jenkins: Gay. Kelly Kirby: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: When did you become aware of that? I mean, were you in high school, college? Kelly Kirby: Well, I'll tell you what, I would say, a light went on that I couldn't decipher of what it was, when my cousin got his elbow, no, he had his arm broken in a football field and during a game, and I went with my dad and my uncle and into the, the locker room, yeah, which I had not been in one of those, and this would, I would have only been 11, and yeah. Toby Jenkins: So the awareness of male bodies. 6 �Kelly Kirby: Yes, exactly. Toby Jenkins: So you would have had that awareness, you went to college there, and you were in the military and all of these, you were still quite young. Any awareness, like, on the campus, on the college campus, were you aware of other gay people? Kelly Kirby: Well, the first time, actually, that I was, I was around them, but I didn't actually know that that was what was going on until...I'm trying to think about when I want to say that. Let's see, Christmas of 1970. Susie left Pittsburgh and went to live in Omaha for three years. And after she was partway through her college as well, her college, because remember she’s six years older than me. So, we all got degrees from that university as well. And but she had a layout period and she came back at Christmas. And I had been going into this bar in Pittsburgh, Kansas, I think I started going in 1969. And it was like a pizza place. And it was just called the Alley. And it was like a downstairs thing in the in the downtown. Twenty thousand people. Kansas and not only for Kansas, you know, but anyway, I started going in there. It wasn't until I said I'd been, maybe 68, 69, 70, but in the 70, Susie and I, we went out and I told her I had this little bar that I could get into because it was Kansas was 18 beer. Although I was not I was going in there when I was 15. But but because of the pizza, it was kind of like a little…. it was Susie and I, we wanted to go out just and just have a time for ourselves. And so we went in there and in the bar was not very busy and we sat at the bar and the guy that was behind the bar Susie graduated from high school. And as as we drove home, to my parents home after we came out of the Alley, she said, do you know that this man is gay? I don't know exactly what words, but the bartender? And so, you know, it's kind of like, where do you get the information in that young place and, you know, no Will and Grace. No, none of that. You know, there really wasn't much of anything good or bad. It was just there. Toby Jenkins: But when she said this to you, I'm not sure exactly what your age was, you said it was Christmas 1970. Kelly Kirby: So I would have just turned 17. Toby Jenkins: So you hadn't went into the military yet. When she said, did you know he's gay, you knew what that meant or you had more questions about it? Kelly Kirby: I can't be that really exactly what that is. But yeah, I don't know that I could pinpoint, but it started something that it was to me. I'll tell you what, I think this is probably the best way to say it. It was I was curious. And so I started going down to the Alley. Sometimes I'd been going with buddies or whatever, whatever. But I just went down there by myself. And I went several times. I don't know. I did probably when I could get out to that place. I went down there. And so about….It was March, so not quite three months, a guy came and sat down by me in the bar and he had seen me in there. He was also a friend of my sister's from the university. And I guess I had a date. I didn't know that that's what it was, anything to call it. But we went to the movies. Went with this guy. We went back to the bar on Saturday night. And then on Sunday, we got in my car and went out in the country just outside of Pittsburgh or whatever. And and then my car. So something happened. I don't know…I ran out of gas or something. My car 7 �quit. And so we went to a farmhouse and got somebody to one of his friends to bring it back to Pittsburg. And so the friend, I don't remember the name, Larry. Larry is the guy that was I was talking to. I don't remember the other guy's name. But anyway, we went back to this guy's house. This guy disappeared and Larry got me in bed. Toby Jenkins: That was your first… So you had car broke down and you that was your first same sex intimate romance. Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: OK. So Pittsburgh, Kansas. Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Kelly Kirby kissed a boy and decided he liked it. Kelly Kirby: Yeah. And a little bit more than kiss. Toby Jenkins: So you were there and going to school. You left school to go into the service military service. Well, I want to know about that. Kelly Kirby: March of 71, I met Larry, and I sent Susie a letter and said, told her that I had a boyfriend that it was, and it was him, Larry. And she came back from Omaha for just for a weekend and just to see what's going on with Kelly. And so, you know, we, in the long run, my sisters were just so helpful. And, and we were three kids with, we lost our mother. And, you know, there's a, there's a stepmother and all that. But, but we were just really, we were tight. I mean we're still very close. And so Susie and I talked to Linda about it. Susie must have told me it might not be good to tell our parents. And there's a long story about that, and that's not necessary. That's, that's enough said about that. So I didn't come out to my parents then, but I did go back to school, a senior, 17 years old, and I started telling some of my friends that I was gay. I don't even know really what the hell that was, but I did kind of. And Larry was a two or three weeks thing. I was like, I clutched to him and, and it was like, he wasn't ready for clutch. He stayed nice to me and all that stuff. But I was going down there [the Alley]. I didn't know, but I went in there on like 10 o'clock on Saturday night. And there's men dancing and in Pittsburgh, Kansas. So I came out to a group of people at that time. I didn't know a hell lot, a lot more than, than what they did, but most of them were interested. And like my whole class knew that I was gay, Whatever they were saying behind my back, I don't know, but nobody punched me in the nose or called...Well, I actually did have a, one guy called me a queer and that was when I was 16 and it was in school showers, guy here in the, in the shower. And I'm looking at him and he said, what are you looking at queer? So that was the first time I know that, that word even, you know, anyway, sorry, sidebar. Toby Jenkins: No, but important. Kelly Kirby: Yes. Yeah, exactly. 8 �Toby Jenkins: First time you really felt public shame or, or him trying to humiliate you because he, so I think that's an important part for all of us. First time we felt public humiliation because of something about us that we don't even realize people can see.. Remarkable that you, your sister may not have understood it, but supported it and that you were out to kids in your high school. Kelly Kirby: Well, Susie, I obviously had some friends that were gay and from college. Toby Jenkins: Now question, do you feel like perhaps the fact that you were on an academic campus, a university setting, which would have emphasized liberal arts and probably more progressive thoughts? I mean, I keep saying this, Kansas, Pittsburgh, Kansas, middle of the country. You think you probably were in a bubble of awareness that maybe somebody else living in Kansas wouldn't have even… Kelly Kirby: I don't know. I know that I can say I had a really good education. I didn't know that's what I had. I just figured everybody that went to school got what I got. And you are right. It was liberal and inclusive. I don't know about homosexuality, but at least it worked in race and those sort of things. Maybe not the whole town, but the campus was largely that way. Toby Jenkins: So you went into the military. Kelly Kirby: Right. Toby Jenkins: I know it was the Vietnam War. Were you drafted? Kelly Kirby: No.Drafting then was kind of like a bingo where the letters come out and they put all the birthdays in the bucket. And the order that the numbers come out were the person who was most likely to be drafted. And the year before me, the highest one, it was 90 out of 365, of course. That's everybody's birthdays, actually. Toby Jenkins: But you weren't drafted. Kelly Kirby: I was not. Toby Jenkins: Were you in the ROTC at the university? Kelly Kirby: I enlisted. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Kelly Kirby: I enlisted because my birthday was pulled out of the hat by number 25. And so it was imminent that I would be, would be… my brother had been drafted. My two cousins had been drafted and all older than me. And I wanted what my dad did. And that wouldn't be Army or Navy. One of my cousins was in the Navy. But what I wanted was, I wanted to fly. I wanted to be a flyer. Toby Jenkins: Right. Kelly Kirby: And anyway, so I went in the Air Force. 9 �Toby Jenkins: I have a question. So already you are kind of aware that you are sexually attracted to your own sex. You're homosexual. You've already had some gay intimate moments. And you decide to go into the military. Was there, and surely you're aware that at that time you were going to be questioned about your sexuality as an induction? They were going to ask you, were you homosexual? Kelly Kirby: Well, I did. They did. I didn't know they were going to, but they did. Toby Jenkins: Oh, you weren't aware. Kelly Kirby: Yeah, I wasn't aware they were going to do it, but they did. And I just denied. You know, I said no. I answered the question no, and then they went on. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Well, that was, you weren't aware that they were going to ask that. So you get into it. Kelly Kirby: Right. Toby Jenkins: Where did you go to basic? Kelly Kirby: Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio. I was there for a couple months. Then I went to Keesler, it's in Mississippi, on the coast. And I knew some guys in basic that were gay. I knew some people in, and actually what I would call have boyfriends in training for a couple of months or a little over that. All clandestine…That was it. I was strictly from 17 to 21, and we'll get to that. But I was only dated men. Toby Jenkins: Yeah. So you went through basic, then did you become a pilot? Kelly Kirby: Well, no, actually they had too many. Because it was kind of running, winding down a little bit. What they needed was more, they didn't need white boy me. I couldn't go to flying school. They needed blacks orToby Jenkins: Or Latinos. Kelly Kirby: Yeah, because they did have actually integrated the military at that time. And… Toby Jenkins: So they saw the importance of diversity and, yeah. Kelly Kirby: Or there was, I mean, you look at Johnson and Nixon. Those were the years where a whole lot of thatToby Jenkins: Affirmative action programs. Kelly Kirby: Exactly. Toby Jenkins: So where did you get assigned? Kelly Kirby: So I got, I had a desk for the Air Force. I was administrative, and I was in assignments. Basically, I was, my job was to do, assign other people to do whatever. So my first duty station was Vandenberg in California. It's on the ocean. And so there was a gay guy in my little pod there. And so we kind of had friends. And an hour away was 10 �Santa Barbara. And so I would go on the weekend to the gay bars down in Santa Barbara. And I had some boyfriends or whatever. Toby Jenkins: And did you go with another group of gay guys from your base? Like y'all had made friends, or did you just drive down there by yourself? Kelly Kirby: Mostly myself. Toby Jenkins: And when you got down there, Kelly, did you ever see other military personnel who were down in Santa Barbara? I mean, did you, because that's what, about 45 miles away? Kelly Kirby: Yeah, it's about an hour, yeah, so. Toby Jenkins: I mean, was the purpose of going there, was so that you could put some distance between you andKelly Kirby: Well, it's where the gay bar is. I was aware, particularly, too, for the women. The lesbians, you know, we all had to hang together and be helpful to each other and put up for each other and be damn quiet about it. Toby Jenkins: So you knew lesbian women in the military? Kelly Kirby: Oh, yeah, in my office. Toby Jenkins: Wow, impressive. And you kind of covered for each other? Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Did you have a boyfriend when you were in the military? Kelly Kirby: I had several. Toby Jenkins: Okay. I got, I just, out of curiosity, that gay bar that you went to, kind of describe what it was like, the environment. Kelly Kirby: I mean- You're talking about back in Pittsburgh or in- Santa Barbara. Toby Jenkins: Santa Barbara. Because to me, you're in a larger urban area. Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: It's on the West Coast. Kelly Kirby: Where the age was 21, which I was not, but I could still get in. Toby Jenkins: So we kind of, in our mind, we kind of imagine what a gay bar looks like today. So was this an integrated space? Were there people of all races in this bar? Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: What about genders? Were there female persons, male persons? Did you see cross-dressers, transsexuals, transgender persons? 11 �Kelly Kirby: As to the latter two, that was not a thing that you knew that somebody was. I mean, who is it that was? There was somebody in, went to Sweden, or, and that's 1969, is that right? Toby Jenkins: Christine Jorgensen Kelly Kirby: and that's 1969, is that right? Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Kelly Kirby: It's not as big a thing. Toby Jenkins: So would there have been cross-dressers in the bar? Kelly Kirby: Maybe. Toby Jenkins: But male persons and female persons were in the same bar. Kelly Kirby: I think they were probably the girls had one bar and the guys had about three in Santa Barbara at that time, and that's probably where they- but that doesn't mean they didn't go into the other. Toby Jenkins: Or were there drag queens performing? Kelly Kirby: No, not that I recall. Toby Jenkins: Okay, what about leather fetish, kink identities? Were those playing out in the clubs at the time? Kelly Kirby: A man from Los Angeles came into the bar in Santa Barbara and I had an office job, so eight to five, got my weekends off. This guy said: you know, would you like to come down to…You know you want to come down and spend the night and I'll show you around on Saturday. I think he was probably 40, and I was 18 or 19 by that time. I couldn't tell you his name and I was the only one who probably saw him maybe once before, but I got exposed to some of the leather king, fetish and and probably the drag queens and and some of that. I don't know how much. Toby Jenkins: You're in the military. And then how did the rest of your life play out with that, your career, your military career, your, your relationships? Kelly Kirby: So I was at Vandenberg for a year and a half. I was in a short assignment of, I think, about four or five months in Omaha and by that time, I was at the place where I went to the bar in Omaha and met a guy there. And, we just kind of hit it off, and three months we were going on. And then when I was going back to Vandenberg, he came with me, and we were going to get an apartment. And so, that's where I was. In the end, that didn't really work out. My next assignment, after another four or five months in California, I went to Eielson Air Force Base in Fairbanks, Alaska. So that was my last place, duty station. And I was there for 13 months or something like that. Toby Jenkins: Were there gay people in Alaska? 12 �Kelly Kirby: Yes, yes, there was a gay bar in Fairbanks, a town of 40,000, which was the second biggest town in Alaska at the time. The pipeline, I don't know if you know that or have any… So they were building it, and it went across the base. So there's all these men that go or were here and going up the line. And, oh, I had a boyfriend that was an Eskimo. I mean… Toby Jenkins: An indigenous person. Kelly Kirby: Yeah, exactly. At least I had some dates with him. And he took me around up to the Arctic Circle. And, you know, we went to a hotel and stuff like that, spent the weekends and everything. Toby Jenkins: Now, Kelly, I'm curious. To me, you sound like your life was pretty comfortable. Were you aware e of people being kicked out of the military because they were gay? Kelly Kirby: Oh, yes. So there was an officer who got caught fucking an airman, and he got sent to Leavenworth, like prison. So, yeah, I was aware of that. Toby Jenkins: Because of the rank? Kelly Kirby: Because of the rank and because you don't fraternize, the enlisted people and the officers. They're, you know, whatever. But so, yeah, I knew what was out. And after, let's see, I left Vandenberg in June of 74. And in August of 74, they had a clean house witch hunt. And 110 people male and female were purged from the with bad dishonorable discharge. Toby Jenkins: This would have been what year? Did you say 74? Kelly Kirby: Yeah. Toby Jenkins: And that was in San Diego or? Kelly Kirby: It was Vandenberg. Vandenberg. Yeah, that's where I was. So, you know, I could have been swept up into that, except I was three months gone. Toby Jenkins: Do you think some of the people told on the other people for reduced sentences? Kelly Kirby: Yeah, there might be. Actually, I think there were plants and things like that, or somebody that got caught. They want them to get to tell on other people. And they will give you this or I'll give you a general instead of an undesirable or a dishonorable. Yeah, there's also there was those four that they can… Toby Jenkins: So just curious at this time when you were living your best life, were you and you were interacting with so many LGBT people. And also you were dealing with the military's…You could not be in the military. I mean, it was the express rule. It wasn't Don't tell you just could not be in it at all. Kelly Kirby: Yes. 13 �Toby Jenkins: Were you also aware of stuff going on nationally? I mean, like, had you heard of the Stonewall riots? Kelly Kirby: Oh, I knew that. Toby Jenkins: Have you heard of gay pride parades? Kelly Kirby: I knew about Stonewall from Pittsburgh, Kansas, at the Alley Bar. So, yes. Toby Jenkins: So you were aware of it? Kelly Kirby: Oh, yeah, I was. Toby Jenkins: Nationally, LGBT people were beginning to resist and demand. And even within the military, there was a strong advocacy to try to pressure Congress to change the rules. Kelly Kirby: Yeah. Well, OK, so let's there's one thing that I wanted to say about six months going back to when I had Larry, the boyfriend in 1971, when I was still in high school, six months in there…. I got drunk and I went home at two in the morning and my dad was sitting up waiting for me and I had a card that I had somebody given me in the Alley that said gay pride or gay… It was something gay pride or something, something I don't remember. It was gay something. Anyway, I remember. And it was like a calling card, you know. And so he's like, where have you been? What you've been doing? And I've flippantly threw the card at him. When I did that, it was like the first time I told my dad I was gay. I want to say I'll capitalize it as five minutes, 30 seconds for me to blurt it out, four and a half minutes for him to yell at me. And we never talked about it again until 20 years later. So. This holds over me through that 20 years. So, I know what's in me, but…'ll be thrown away from my family and I don’t want to say go too much about Susie. Other than she didn't go to Omaha by choice. It was by force. Toby Jenkins: This is your sister. Kelly Kirby: Yes. Kelly Kirby: And so and that was why Susie told me, don't tell your parents, because that's why she was coming back down just to see me. To just help me out and whatever. And I actually lived after I graduated from high school, I moved up to Omaha for the summer and lived with her in an apartment. Toby Jenkins: And so how long were you in the military? Kelly Kirby: Three years, one month and 21 days. Toby Jenkins: I wish you could remember the details of that. So you get out of the military, go back to school. Kelly Kirby: OK, there's a piece of this in the latter part of the going to Alaska. I had Mark, a boyfriend that I met pretty early since when I went in there and maybe a couple of weeks after. There was actually even the day that I got there, there was this guy at the gas station on base. And I was you know, I drove up there. And so I went and this gorgeous man. I just knew that he was hitting on me. And and so this first guy, my first 14 �friend, even whether or not he was gay or not, I was I was really my gaydar went like this, and I kept seeing him in the chow hall and around the base, and then he invited me to come to a, I don't remember how he encapsulated it, and what I didn't know then, until for a long time afterwards, what was going on, was a, it was a cult. It was the Way. Toby Jenkins: A religious cult? Kelly Kirby: Yes, religious cult. I went into one of some guy's room, and there was about eight or ten or twelve guys, and they had Bibles and whatever, but this guy invited me to this, and I was like, I would have done anything to get in his pants, you know, and I thought that's what he had in mind, and otherwise, it was the Way International. And so, from there, I'm 21 now, I go over some of that through my Alaska, and then, when I came back to Pittsburgh to go back to college, they had the Way, they had the chapter, and I stayed from 75 to 77. I just gradually stopped fucking guys, and, can I say that? And I started dating women. Toby Jenkins: So it was through this, this guy invited you, you had an attraction for him, but he was interested in recruiting you and proselytizing you, and so you began to buy into the Bible study and their programs and the things they were saying, had you told this group that you had been intimate with men, had you told them you were gay? Kelly Kirby: Not while I was in Alaska, but when I was in back in Pittsburgh, within the first semester, I told somebody, you know, and, you know, their thing is, if you're, if you're homosexual, you have a devil spirit, and they are making you do what you're doing, and you know, I'm, you know, why am I, why am I gay? You know, that's what, you know, that's what I have been up to that, even though through four years, I just wasn't like the Kelly Kirby that you know. I was still scared, my family…you're not going to, you'll never get a job, you'll, you know, whatever, all that stuff, and anyway, so he said, this guy that I talked to from the Way… Toby Jenkins: Okay, so you have came back to Kansas, is that right? Kelly Kirby: Right. Toby Jenkins: And you've connected to a religious group, and began to kind of discover perhaps maybe you're not going to live as a gay person. You're adopting kind of their position and I think earlier you mentioned the Way they identified it is if you act on your sexuality, if you are intimate with somebody of the same sex, it's a demon forcing you to do that, trying to control you and so the... Kelly Kirby: Right and so it's not me that's getting pleasure from this, it's the devil spirit that's in me and the devil spirit will give you some little bite of something, something that keeps you on a hook and so the only thing you can do is... I don't know exactly how the words work. I don't remember. Essentially, you get the devil spirit out of you. Toby Jenkins: Resisting. Kelly Kirby: Yeah. So, I got married. I had... 15 �Toby Jenkins: Was the person you married, were they a part of this religious group? Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: So you met your wife... Right. ...through this religious group? Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Now, I think I asked you earlier, but I just want clarification. Had you communicated to anybody in the group that you struggle with same-sex attraction? Kelly Kirby: Well, one of the guys that I, like I already said, he was the one that had told me all of this stuff. And I don't know if I told everybody. I don't think I did. I really don't, but I might in some somebody. I don't really remember exactly. I know some guys that were same thing as me. I mean, and in fact, I had some lesbians as well, but all of them were... Toby Jenkins: Ex-gay. Kelly Kirby: Yes, yeah, exactly. Toby Jenkins: So, did they dangle a carrot over you that, you know, maybe you had this issue with your father not being supportive, and you knew that society didn't support it, and that the Bible didn't support it, and God... I mean, did they dangle this carrot that there was a way that you could be normal, you could just be regular? Kelly Kirby: It wasn't the other, all of other things you said. It's just God. God will help you, and you have to be strong, and... Toby Jenkins: So, was your wife, was she from Pittsburgh? Kelly Kirby: She was, and she actually knew that I was was gay before we got married, and I'll say, and to give her some... I don't know what to say, what an adjective. She knew that I was. I was not the one to tell her. It was somebody else, and I... She knew that I was trying not to be. Let's put it that way, and I didn't have sex with a man for 13 years. I was monogamous with her. The one and one time only, I found a porno magazine that I... I don't remember how I found it, and then I was like, ah, and I was like, I was taste, taste, you know, it was like, this is like 10 years into my marriage, and I hid it, and I looked at it, and I, and it just ate me up, and I threw it away, but it's still, that thing was there, and... Toby Jenkins: Do you remember the magazine? Was it Blue Boy? Kelly Kirby: It could have been... Kelly Kirby: Playgirl? Toby Jenkins: Maybe a Playgirl magazine. Kelly Kirby: That's possible. Toby Jenkins: They had started showing full frontal nudity. 16 �Kelly Kirby: Yes, yeah. If you want to know what was the turning point for me was... The head of the Way died in 1985. It came apart. A lot of the people that I knew, in fact a whole lot of people that we socialized and all that started seeing that we had been lied to and et cetera. Some of them may split off and have still that kind of... But about a year or so after he died Joyce and I pulled out of the Way and we went to go to a… Toby Jenkins: Counselor. Kelly Kirby: Thank you. A while we went for couples and the guy that was doing it once, he was on 35th and Harvard at one of those... Is it a Methodist church there? They had some kind of a bunch of... You could get counseling there for a small amount of money. And basically he said you've got a good marriage. I don't see that you really need this. And we of course had to undo a lot of the not just the gay, but just the whole thing of the Way. But... In the end the thing that I got to was after about 12, 18 months is here's what…I mean if somebody told me that this is how you get out of being gay and you'll never be and you'll be fine. And if they lied to me with that, then what about everything else? What did they do to me? I got into my own... Not with Joyce, but just me in counseling. And over a three-year period I just figured out that first of all I said instead of... I went from it's not okay for anybody to be gay to gay is okay for some people, just not for Kelly. And then I went to a different person and then that's when I just really could pull out what I was and said I'm gay. And there's nothing wrong with it. Not for anybody. There's people that are bad people, but that's not the point. I went to some support groups, SSA and things like that, and that was like, okay, that's not me, it's not, it's, I'm not a sex addict. I'm a very... Toby Jenkins: SSA is Sexual Survivors, Sexual Anonymous, Sex Anonymous. Kelly Kirby: Sex Addicts Anonymous. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: It's like AA, but it's for... Kelly Kirby: Yes, exactly. Toby Jenkins: For people who feel like they have sex addictions. Kelly Kirby: Yes, exactly. And I, some of my gay friends in town here, I met in a group. Toby Jenkins: And so you had come to Tulsa, you started out in Oklahoma City, came to Tulsa. Had you already started, established your CPA firm by then? Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And you, how many children did you have? Kelly Kirby: All of them. Toby Jenkins: Four. You had four children. Kelly Kirby: Yeah, yeah, four children. Yeah. 17 �Toby Jenkins: And you're married, in your business, and you're going to get help, professional help. Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: And you, in a course of three years... Kelly Kirby: The reason is I had more clients here. There was one big client that I had, a client that I had had almost for 10 years or eight years. When they had five people on, they had up to now 100 employees, and they were just…was just going wild. Anyway, in terms of getting big, the owners then decided that they wanted to sell it, and I was their accountant. I was in their building, and I was doing accounting work for them two days a week. And three days a week, I have an office, and I can do taxes and whatever. So, that's kind of how I got to Tulsa. So they wanted to sell it. Three of the five that were there eight years ago…these three guys came to me and said, Charlie wants to sell, and I said, yeah, I know. And he says, well, we'd like to buy it. Do you think we could do that? And I was like, yeah, you could. There's capital here. I mean, the kids, these three men, they didn't have any more money than I did. They had kids and a house, but they probably lived week to week or whatever. But I found a way for them, and they said to me, they went out and came back and said, if you can make this work, then we'll give you 10%. So, they had each one of those three got 30%. I got 1%, or 10%. So, going on, that was 89. In 91, I'm out of the house from Joyce and whatever. Toby Jenkins: So, y'all separated or divorced? Kelly Kirby: Yeah, well, yeah. I left the house in 90, November. It took 15 months to get the divorce done. Toby Jenkins: How old were the kids? Kelly Kirby: So, when I went out, let's see, nine, eight, five and four. Toby Jenkins: Oh, Erin, this one was four. Kelly Kirby: Yeah, Erin. Yeah. Toby Jenkins: Okay. Kelly Kirby: And anyway, jumped forth two years. No, it was one year. December 1st of 1991, World AIDS Day, I went down the road to 5th and Main… it was a candlelight... [service starting at] Bartlett Square. But it was sleeting and there was about 50 people there and we got candles, we had a little bit of something there and then we walked to the Episcopal Church, the Cathedral... Trinity. All I was doing there was just being there and walking a candle and I got my picture taken by the Tulsa World and I was on the next day's second page. And my three partners in this... I'm not going to say which company in town this is, okay, and I'll tell you why in a bit if you want. They saw the picture and the president, the new 18 �president there, we've been two years [since the sale], Charlie's gone and whatever, he said, see your picture in the paper. And I said, yes. And he said, okay. And then he came back, he left and he came back to my office a little while longer. This was all in one day. He said, there's a lot of talk coming in the office. There's a hundred people working there and they're talking. By the way, these three men are... well, actually, Charlie is also Southern Baptist. They all went to the same church. So, he came back to me again and he said, can I ask you a question? And I said, sure. And he said, Kelly, if you had an opportunity to make a statement for... If you had a chance to talk, to speak about this, of your cause, was what he said, your cause, would you do it? And I thought, hmm, that's an interesting thing. And I don't remember if he left and I went to him or whether I told him just right then. I don't know exactly. I don't remember exactly, but within hours, at least, I went back and I said, you know, I think I would. And I did. Oh, God. I wasn't going to let anybody push me anymore, and I'm not going to have any clients that don’t know that I'm gay, because I don't want to be that vulnerable, and I mean, I didn't say they had to be gay to be my clients. I just wanted them to not discriminate against me or make their questions, to be answered in a way that they don't want, and all right, let me think of this right. I came into, let's step forward a little bit. I, in the summer, or I think September, I guess, when the elections were, they asked me to be on the board, and… Toby Jenkins: For Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. Kelly Kirby: Yes. TOHR. Toby Jenkins: Today it is known as Oklahomans for Equality. Kelly Kirby: Exactly. I went on the board as, and treasurer, because I'm an accountant, and so, 93 to 94, I did that, and then they made me president, and I was for two years from 94 to 96, and then my third, or my fourth year, I was on the board. I was back to being treasurer I went back to the Disciples of Christ, Christian Church of Disciples. That was what I was raised. I was the president of District 8 for the state of Kansas of the CYF my senior year, and that includes when I came out, and I went from there to the Way, and I came back, and it's my family. The first one I went to when I came back here was Forest Park. Mike, I can't think of his last name as a minister there. Joyce and I went there with our kids, and then when we split, I wanted Joyce and the kids to have Forest Park, and I went to see where I could go, which ended up to be First Christian downtown, and that's the time that I met Richard Ziegler, and of course, you know, his son is gay. When I had a boyfriend then, Rick, we wanted to make a civil union. So, we went to Richard Ziegler and said, would you do this for us? And he said, I've never done one, but I've been waiting for somebody to ask me. We're still close. He got kicked out. And that's a whole other thing. Toby Jenkins: So, he did, he blessed your civil union. 19 �Kelly Kirby: At Harwelden. My family, my dad and my stepmother came to that. And Nancy McDonald was helpful to getting me to get my parents to come to my civil union. That's where I came from. At that time, I picked up PFLAG. Toby Jenkins: And so, Nancy McDonald was the president of PFLAG locally, but also. Kelly Kirby: She was on the [national] board. And then, she was, she, and I think by 95, I'm going to do a timeline, but I'll try to not make it, let's give you some snippets. Anyway, so I went into office of TOHR. And 20 days later, Bill Clinton got inaugurated. And on the next day, he made an executive order that being homosexual was not a reason to get kicked out of the military. And of course, he had to back down, way back down. And, you know, people say, oh, he was just, the man took the big step. And yeah, it took another two or three, however many different presidents…Took three. Well, it was him, and then George, and then Obama. The media [called the TOHR Helpline] and somebody, whoever it was, got the message and called me. And so, I called back this reporter, and I met him in Sam's Club parking lot, and did an interview. Between then and the next 15 years, I probably did 200 interviews. I did those interviews because nobody else would do it. Now, you know, if there's a, you know, 100 things to be said, it should come from 100 people. You know, instead, I was the face. I was the face of Tulsa and Nancy. Kelly Kirby: TOHR 91 to 95. In 93, the disciples contingent that had a, they have a different name now, but tell me, tell me what it was. Toby Jenkins: Disciples of Christ, they're affirming inclusive. Kelly Kirby: Yes. I went on a national board. And I did that for four years. So that was from three to 93 to 97. In 95, Nancy asked me to come on the national PFLAG, and I was, I came on as a board member in the 95, and then in 96, she became the national president. And I was a treasurer, and I was doing that for, so for seven years. So I was on the board for PFLAG. Another of the things that I've done, I hate saying that. I feel like I'm trying my best. I did this because it needed to be done, and I wanted to do it. So, anyway, maybe that's why people ask me. I don't know. Toby Jenkins: Well, at that time, visibility was critical to our survival, as it is today. And for someone to be visible in Oklahoma, they could either lose their jobs, be disowned by their families, or kicked out of their church, and you had already traversed all of that. You were self-employed, you were in an affirming church, and your family already was aware. So you had those credentials that made you be able to be more visible. Was it during this time that you served on the ACLU board in the state of Oklahoma? Kelly Kirby: So, no, I was on PFLAG, then…Another church, it was another Disciples they did camp, they sent people into camps and summer camps for youth. And you know, that was like any kind of a cause that the church should be cognizant about and it was like that. And I was on the National Board for 8 years on that one. It wasn't just gay and whatever, it was a lot of other things. 20 �And then they sent me to the ICCR, Interfaith Center for Corporate Responsibility. And that's out of New York. I was on that national team, as a representative of the whole Disciples of Christ denomination. You know, millions of members. Toby Jenkins: Let me ask you a few questions. Kelly Kirby: Okay. Toby Jenkins: So, during this period, you had come out, you had divorced, you had your children, you had your partner, and you became kind of the person that they threw out in front when they needed a spokesperson. So, I'm just going to ask you a couple of questions. Toby Jenkins: Did you ever have to give any public interviews on marriage equality? Were you ever interviewed for that? Kelly Kirby: Oh, yes. Toby Jenkins: Were you ever interviewed for gays in the military? Kelly Kirby: Well, yes, I did. I did it in 93. Toby Jenkins: Were you ever interviewed for discrimination policies? Kelly Kirby: Absolutely. Toby Jenkins: Were you ever interviewed for LGBTQ health care issues, such as HIV, AIDS? Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: Were you ever interviewed for faith and spirituality and sexuality issues? Kelly Kirby: Yes. Toby Jenkins: So, we've just covered, what about, were you ever interviewed whenever the sodomy laws were struck down? Kelly Kirby: Yes, yeah. Toby Jenkins: So, Kelly, I'm going to ask you, and this is not a court of law, but I want you to testify faithfully. Have you, to the best of your ability, for the last 20 years… Kelly Kirby: 30 years, 35 years. Toby Jenkins: Stood up and stood step forth and advocated for LGBTQ plus individuals and with a clear conscience? Kelly Kirby: Well, I got recognized for it. And I said, you know what? Toby Jenkins: You know you did your part. Kelly Kirby: This is in 2010. 21 �Toby Jenkins: Yeah. Kelly Kirby: It's 15 years later now, and I said, you know, this lifetime achievement [shows Lifetime Achievement Award from Oklahomans for Equality], I said, my life is not gone. I'm going to be here, you know, and here I am. Toby Jenkins: You, earlier in the interview, acted like you were a little bit embarrassed because you felt like you were touting your achievements. But I want to? Weren't you? Were you proud to represent the LGBTQ community? Kelly Kirby: Yes, yeah. Toby Jenkins: But it came with a cost, didn't? Kelly Kirby: Well, yes. Toby Jenkins: Were you threatened? Did you lose clients? Kelly Kirby: There was on my porch ... .If you're going shooting range and they have the [target] on the house and on the car, scratched in the paint, threatening life-threatening to me. I called the police. What was the question? Toby Jenkins: Did it come with a cost being visible? Kelly Kirby: Yes. So, because I was on the board of the Human Rights Commission, I know who to talk to, and I talked to that person and he said: I can't do this, but I know who in the police department can and will. It was a kid at Edison High School. They took him out of high school and suitably told him, you don't do that and you better not do that. And here's why you need not to do that and no more, no more trouble, Toby Jenkins: In 2010, you'll kind of hold that up and face towards the camera so we can….Okay, so you receive that Lifetime Achievement Award at the Equality Gala that year. So a couple of things. I know, you have always to my…. As many years as I've known you, and that's been since 96- you've always been a pretty family man and you and your partners at the time, were very involved in your children… Kelly Kirby: You know well, Charles and I were together 17 years. His twins are three weeks older than my second born, Rachel, and when Charles and I met in 1999, he moved from Edmond to here. The kids were most well, they were junior high and high school and middle school, and we were six kids and two gay dads and we were this, the Brady Bunch minus Alice. So, yes, Toby Jenkins: And I remember your partner, Charles Johnson, may his memory be blessed- I know that he also did some interviews for us in the media over issues over books being banned in our libraries when legislators are trying to ban those, an interview on kids being bullied in school because of their sexual orientation. Because he was an open out schoolteacher for Union Public Schools- was it Union? Kelly Kirby: Yes, yeah, 22 �Toby Jenkins: And was famous for every year he would take how many students to see the opera, the grade school kids? Kelly Kirby: Every kid in his school of the fifth grade. Toby Jenkins: Yeah, did that every year for years. Kelly Kirby: Yes, sadly he died for something that was probably there when he was born, but it just didn't anyway, at 58 he died, and so that's been nine years. Toby Jenkins: And you have a husband now. Kelly Kirby: Yes, Rod Benham. Yeah, so I've had three marriages and only one was a divorce. A divorce, a death, and a man who loves me now still, Toby Jenkins: And your children kind of following your footsteps, their advocates for equality. Kelly Kirby: Yes Toby Jenkins: If you were, let's say, you know you had a tombstone and you had to write something on it that you want to say about your life. Do you have a motto that you'd like to put on a tombstone, or do you have an epitaph? You know, some people have things like that. Is there something like that? As you, you know, think about life, careers, serving others, serving our country, defending our country, raising your children and all the things that you've done. Kelly Kirby: It's already on the tombstone in that cemetery down on 91st Street and it's got Charles and my name is there, with no date and…but yes, it was like you can just there's a, there's a row of those things in some succinct but yeah, Toby Jenkins: Anything else you want to make sure we have as a part of this history archive. Kelly Kirby: Another alliance, the Tulsa Metropolitan Ministry. I was on that board for four years. But you ask about the ACLU. That was in the latter part of the like, maybe 2007 to 2011 or something like that. I don't know, that's not something in that neighborhood. Toby Jenkins: So, in closing, I just want to tell you one of my favorite memories. You were the gay convertible, and by that I mean you were one of the guys who I knew had a convertible and if I needed somebody to ride in the Oklahoma City parade or the Tulsa parade I would call you, and many times you were the escort driver for whatever Grand Marshal or whatever bride, king or queen we had, and in Oklahoma City parade and Tulsa parade. Kelly Kirby: And one time, even just on two hours notice, it was somebody else that whatever happened to them, you know, I don't know, it was probably something that was on and I'm just like, okay, I'll be there. What time do you need me? Toby Jenkins: Well, thank you so much. I appreciate you spending this time with us all right. 23 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Kelly Kirby Interview Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kelly Kirby, Toby Jenkins Subject The topic of the resource Kelly Kirby Oral History Project Interview from April 9, 2025 Description An account of the resource This conversation with Kelly Kirby explores his life journey, from his early awareness of his sexual orientation to his military service and subsequent advocacy for LGBTQ rights. Kelly shares personal stories about his family, relationships, and the challenges he faced as an openly gay man in Oklahoma. His commitment to equality and inclusion is evident through his involvement in various organizations and his reflections on the importance of authenticity in one's life. Interview conducted by Toby Jenkins on April 9, 2025, transcript edited by Dennis Neill on February 17, 2026. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 9, 2025; February 17, 2026 2025 advocacy AIDS AIDS/HIV coming out community Dennis Neill equality Gay Bars Gay Rights HIV/AIDs interview Kelly Kirby LGBT history military military inclusion OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project representation sexual orientation discrimination Toby Jenkins video Visibility World AIDS day Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2004] Ken Youngblood Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource August 22, 2004 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on August 22, 2004. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Ken was born November 22, 1949, in Vinita, Oklahoma. From sixth grade through high school, he played the piano and organ at the local Baptist Church. He attended high school in Jay, Oklahoma, married in 1971, went to Northeastern State University in Tahlequah, Oklahoma and obtained a degree in Music. He divorced in 1973 and came out soon after. Ken attended graduate school at the University of Oklahoma in Norman. In 1975, Ken moved to Tulsa and attended a hairstyling school and later opened a flower shop after working in the floral department of a local grocery. Ken discussed his early experiences in the gay scene in Tulsa and his first drag appearances, including participating in the Follies fundraiser for Oklahomans for Human Rights. In 1994, the well-known Tulsa artist Pat Gordon asked Ken to model in drag as part of a series of such works over the next few years. He discussed his awareness of AIDS and its impact in Tulsa and his volunteer work with the helpline maintained by Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. In 1992, Ken and his long-time partner had a well- known “wedding” attended by some 300 gay and straight people. Subject The topic of the resource Ken Youngblood Oral History Project Interview from August 22, 2004 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ken Youngblood, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2004 AIDS AIDS/HIV available at Center follies HIV/AIDs interview Ken Youngblood Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Northeastern State University Northeastern State University (NSU) NSU OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OU Pat Gordon TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) University of Oklahoma University of Oklahoma (OU) video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/023559720fd72ce52b47697fd079f211.JPG 4dfd0f8858284e1c50788f51c9ec4b9f https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/b5fde90b2684c2ec8438e2718e52f8c4.mp4 122ef854ea8cc57b0d701b3a8e39f867 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/a6620e81230ea3ccbc140ceb3d612311.pdf 9a54b9df7d6c3a4103fec956642cb721 PDF Text Text Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Interview with Kent Harrell (AKA Anita Richards) Interview Conducted by Toby Jenkins Date: December 23, 2025 Transcribed and Edited By: Dennis Neill using Riverside Studio.ai Restrictions: Interviewee requested: N/A Oklahomans for Equality History Project 621 E. 4th Street Tulsa, OK. 74120 918.743.4297 historyproject@okeq.org 1 �Oklahomans for Equality Oral History Project Interview December 23, 2025 Interview of Kent Harrell (AKA Anita Richards) by Toby Jenkins Addendum - Kent Harrell Show Notes from Riverside Studio AI Topics include: Drag performance, LGBT community, family dynamics, AIDS awareness, personal identity, marriage equality, pageant culture, early life, career beginnings Summary This conversation explores the life and experiences of Kent Wilson Harrell Jr., focusing on his journey through early life, family dynamics, understanding his sexual orientation, and his career in drag performance. Kent shares insights into the challenges faced by the LGBT community, particularly during the AIDS crisis, and reflects on his personal relationships, including his marriage to Taylor. The discussion emphasizes the importance of being true to oneself and offers advice for future generations. Takeaways Kent's family background includes a strong connection to the Air Force and NASA. Childhood experiences shaped Kent's understanding of gender identity. Acceptance of sexual orientation can be a challenging journey with family. Kent's drag career began in the late 1970s, inspired by performances he witnessed. The drag community has evolved significantly over the decades. Pageants in the LGBT community serve as both a platform for talent and a source of competition. 2 �The AIDS crisis had a profound impact on the LGBT community, leading to increased awareness and activism. Marriage equality has been a significant milestone for the LGBT community. Being true to oneself is essential for a fulfilling life Chapters 01:16 Introduction and Early Life 04:24 Family Dynamics and Schooling 07:23 Self-Discovery and Identity 10:21 Relationship Journey 13:21 Coming Out and Family Acceptance 20:13 Career Beginnings in Performance 25:15 Memorable Performances and Clubs 31:59 The Journey of a Performer 33:25 Pageant Culture in the LGBT Community 36:01 The Evolution of Pride Festivals 39:00 The Impact of AIDS on the Community 54:18 Love and Commitment in the LGBT Community ________________________________________________________________________Interview starts – Toby – please tell us your name. My name is Kent Wilson Harrell Jr. Toby - And for purposes of documentation, could you tell us your date of birth and how old you are at the time of this interview? 3 �March the 4th, 1960 and I am currently 65 years and about 9 months old I guess. Toby - Let's talk a little bit about how you got to us. The day of your appearance here in the world. So tell us where you were born, what city, and a little bit about your family. Well, my father worked for the federal government, and he worked for NASA. And he and my mother both were employees of Tinker Air Force Base. They worked for the Air Force. And my dad was constantly going for, what he did was quality assurance. Whenever the federal government would contract with an Air Force base to build a specific part for a plane or a rocket, or whatever and they needed a particular piece or something built, it was his responsibility to make sure that thing met government specifications. So he was constantly being moved to Air Force Base, Air Force Base, Air Force Base. So how I came into the world, he had been in Duluth, Minnesota for about six months, about four or five months, and my mother went to see him one weekend. And at this time, my dad was 43 years old and my mother was 39. They had a 17-year-old daughter and a seven year old daughter. So about a week or two weeks after that fact, they were out in an amusement park and my mother was a roller coaster fanatic and rode a roller coaster and got violently ill and went to the doctor the next day and the doctor said, you need to go to an obstetrician. And she went to the obstetrician. The obstetrician said, Mrs. Harold, you're pregnant. And she called my dad in Minnesota and said, guess what? We're going to have a new addition to my family. He said, no way. You're kidding. Anyway, long story short. That's how I came into the world from a weekend visit from Minnesota anyway. Toby - and they were living in Oklahoma City at the time. So you were born in Oklahoma City. Did you go to school in Oklahoma City? 4 �No, we lived in Oklahoma City until, well, for a long time, about two years, my dad was transferred to Vermont and New York State and then came back to our house in Oklahoma City after that and he came back to Tinker and then was transferred to North America Rockwell in December of 1964. So I was about four years and seven months old or so. So we moved to Tulsa and the first place we moved to was over on the west side. And we lived in an addition that's still in existence called Mountain Manor off of Southwest 33rd. The early days were Crystal City, shopping center and all that area around. Toby - and you went to school over in West Tulsa. Well, I started out, the situation was, in so much as both were working at North American Rockwell, my mother got a job there too. She was a statistician. And what they would do, they would drive from that area town towards North American Rockwell, and there was a little nursery school over on North Sheridan. And that's where they put me in daycare centers, we call them now. And so when I turned five, I had to go to kindergarten, of course, and the closest kindergarten to that daycare was Burbank Elementary, which is now the Bell Junior High School annex. And that's where I started my academia was at Burbank Elementary. Toby - Now, did you graduate from a Tulsa High School? No, as time went on, we ended up going from first to Tulsa, then they moved to Broken Arrow, and then from Broken Arrow to Rogers County and the Rogers County area. And we started out in Claremore and then moved to Oologah. So from seventh grade till my senior year, I went to high school and junior high in Oologah. And the reason I did that, my middle sister, because of my dad's position, had been moved from pillar to post, state to state, school to school. And when we finally settled in Oologah, I said, I'm not moving. I said, I'm not going to be transferred to any other schools. I'm going to stay here and graduate at this school. And if you don't like it, you're going to have to get me a transfer. And so that's what we did. And I spent from seventh to senior year in a very wonderful environment, a great, great school, and had a very normal academic situation in high school. 5 �Toby - and what high school. Oologah class of 197(?) Toby - For our viewing audience, I'm going to share a photo. How old are you in this photo? You're just a child. Six. Six years old. in this photo... Toby - You're dressed in a dress, looks like makeup. Tell us a little bit about, can you remember that event? My mother said once many, many years after the fact, she said, you know, when you were clumping down the hallway in my high heel shoes, I never expected you to turn it into a 45 year career. But I guess the situation was, I'm not going to say that I was, you know, you hear the stereotypical stories of a passive father, aggressive mother and all that kind of world. Not necessarily so with me, but my mother was a very gregarious individual. She was a wonderful personality and was a very colorful dresser. And she loved oranges and reds and greens and all vibrant colors. Well, men at that time were reduced to gray suits, blue suits, know, black suits. And here was this burden paradise in my household that was constantly looking so fabulous. And I thought that's what I, that's exactly how I'd like to be. so as stereotypical, I've heard this story from many, many gay individuals. I was attracted to, it was a crazy thing. I had my Tonka toys, had my GI Joes, I had my fire trucks, the whole rigmarole. But I also loved, my mom's high heels and all the bright colors and all the things and coming from that era no one ever specifically said to me you have to have a baseball or a basketball or a football or whatever. Whatever I wanted I got. It didn't matter to my dad whether I wanted a football which I had or a Barbie doll. Nobody ever cared. Which was so unusual from that time period. But you don't know it's unusual because it's your life, you know. Toby - So at six years old when you've got on makeup and a dress and high heels they thought it was 6 �They thought it was hysterical. My sister, at the time was 13, thought it was deplorable and that I was something to be hidden away as far as she was concerned. But no one ever took it seriously. They just thought it was funny. Toby - Now, how do you identify? What is your sexual orientation? How do you identify? You mean like of course I'm gay but I've always said male people have asked me it took me many, many years to make people in my family understand just because I was an entertainer a drag entertainer that I didn't necessarily want to be transgender full-time seven days a week Toby - Well thank you for sharing for that. Now you have a relationship. Tell us a little bit about your relationship. Taylor, my dear husband, Taylor and I met online when he was 19 years old. I didn't know how old he was. We got in contact on Facebook, and he got in contact with me instead of vice versa. I was just intrigued by this individual. I took a look at this face that I like, no face I'd ever seen before in my entire life. And something about him just was interesting. And I got to talking with him, asking who he was, where he was from. He told me he was from Minneapolis. I had no idea he was 19 years old. So when I found that out, I said, at that point in time, Facebook was talking to people or reporting that there were police departments around the United States that were using young men to entrap older gentlemen. you know, not knowing this person as I didn't, I didn't know whether that might have been the case also. So I found, once I found out specifically how old that he was, I said, I'm, I can't talk to you anymore. I'm sorry. And he said, but why? I said, well, you're just, you're too young. So I didn't speak to him for about close to a year and I did keep looking at his pictures and he kept looking at mine which I didn't realize till finally one day he messaged me and he said well, I'm 20 He said aren't I old enough for you to talk to now? Yes, I guess so and the situation was Taylor was Taylor felt he was transgender and from Minneapolis, Minnesota, and he was undergoing hormone therapy at that time. And he was engaged to be married to a gentleman that he was living with. But the gentleman that he was engaged to had a 7 �hard and fast rule. He said, if you want to take these hormones, that's your business and I can't stop you. But you will never, as long as you live under my roof, dress in female attire. And Taylor explained this to me and I said, you know, nobody has a right to tell you what you can and cannot be. If this is who you think you are, then you have every right on the face of the earth to be that. And I said, I'm going to give you an opportunity. I said, if you want to come to Tulsa and live with me, I said, I will make sure that you get the best medical attention. I will make sure in one way the other that you get the best best psychotherapy that you're going to have to have to do this. And I said, I will make sure that you get under the best medical care that you can have that we can find for you. If this is the person, you know, the avenue that you intend to be and who you feel you really are. So he said, he finally agreed to it. And he, and I said, well, then here's the, well, I said, I'm not rich. I have no money. I can't afford to send you here on a plane. But I said, I will try to get you here the best way I can. So bless his heart. He rode 17 and a half hours by bus to get here to Tulsa and as I told him We did get him under therapy Then he went through about and a half year worth of hormone therapy but somewhere along the way he didn't realize that it's a very hard and complicated thing to be a woman to there are certain things that you have to do in your day-to-day life that he really just didn't want to do so finally an individual who is very close to us who was trans sat him down and said Taylor you're about as female as the wall you're sitting against and I think you need to wean yourself off this medication and sit down and figure out who you really are and live your life, which is what he did. Toby - Thank you so much for sharing that. I want to talk to you a little bit about, this is your senior picture. Graduated from Oologah. Just curious, Kent, when was it that you realized that you were gay? I can tell you specifically. Toby - And tell us a little bit about maybe your interaction with your family. Because you and Taylor are legally married. And you're old enough to remember when same-sex marriage was not legal in Oklahoma. But tell us 8 �when you accepted your sexual orientation and maybe a little bit abouthow your family handled that identity. When I first realized that my attraction was more to the male gender, my mother and dad allowed me to go to a movie. I was 12 years old. There was a film that came out that year in 1972 called 40 Carrots. And it was about a lady who, a 40-year-old lady who on her birthday took a trip to Europe. And so on the prior was starring Liv Ullmann was the gal. And so in the process of this movie, she's driving along through Italy and her car stalls and she's on a bridge. And as she's out in the middle of nowhere, she doesn't know what she's going to do. And she walks over to the edge of this bridge and she looks down in this water. And there in this water is swimming this beautiful young man in a tiny yellow Speedo bikini. The yellow, the man in the bikini was Edward Albert Jr. And when he came up out of that water in this glistening, glistening photo, know, film, he came up out of that water. I was like, ha ha ha ha ha. And I knew right then that there was something a little different for me than most people. Or so I thought. I didn't know if I was the only individual like that or not. But that was the very first kind of initiation. Toby - You know, like all kids growing up in the 70s, you thought you were the only one on the face of the earth. You didn't talk about it. You know, I remember my mother and dad in a warehouse market and I was a movie magazine fanatic. And I was looking at some movie magazines and I was thumbing through and I looked down on the floor and there was a centerfold from that first, the very first edition of Playgirl magazine. And I unfolded that centerfold, went, holy cow. I folded it back up and put it in my pocket and it home. I stole it. Toby - You stole it.. I stole that sin and needless to say that was my little secret thing but there again I didn't you know I didn't discuss it with anybody really and to tell you the honest truth my parents were not they they you know as time went by of course you have revealed eventually you know they've put 9 �two and two together were they happy about it no no they weren't happy and there was a point in time where I finally said you know, you can't deal with this and I don't want to deal with you either. I, for my own purpose reasons, I moved to Tulsa. My sister said, you know, leave home, come to Tulsa. I was 19 and I moved to Tulsa. got a job. I went over and I moved into a place called Harvard Terrace Apartments around 21st and Harvard. I lived my own life and I didn't speak to my folks for over a year. It was a ridiculous thing to do because I was a very sheltered individual. I didn't know how to pay bills. I didn't know where you paid the water bill, the gas bill, blah, blah. Eventually lost the apartment, ended up homeless and still wouldn't go home. Still wouldn't go home. Lived in my car and then one day out of the blue I happened to see my parents. I was basically starving now. I had been doing drag all along. I had been doing drag here in Tulsa. I started in 1979 and but things weren't going great and being hungry as I was, I saw my mother dad drive down the street one day in their car and I thought, I'm going to go home, I'm tired, I'm starving, I'm going to go home and went home for two or three years, about three years and tried to live the life that I thought that's who they wanted me to be and then realized you just can't do it. You have to be who you are. You can't let somebody subjugate you into being somebody that you're not. And finally at the age of about 23 or 24, I came back to Tulsa. Toby - during that time had they resolved it that they come to accept that you were Well, a way, my mother once asked me, she said, you know, she said, I don't understand. She said, can't you just, you know, it's fine. That's your attraction is to men, but do you have to participate in that? Can't you just go over to the, you know, just stop it? And I said, mother, it's who you are. I said, you can't go off and you just, can't turn it off like a light switch at the wall. You can't just stop being who you are. It's who I am. I was born this way. You have to accept that. they did do it in time. But the real catalyst of the whole thing was when I was 26, I met an individual by the name of Larry Guz, who was my first long-term relationship. And he said, Kent, you've 10 �got to stop this. You've got to confront this. You've got to make them understand. If they can't love you for what you are, then they have to love you for who you are. And if they can't do that, they don't need you anyway. Toby – I want our audience to see a picture of your beautiful mom and dad. And they finally, my dad came to Larry and I and he finally said, if this is who you are, this is who you are and we accept you 150%. So that kind of, took a long, time, but they finally did. Toby - So, you're very. well known in Tulsa as Anita Richards. So I want us to kind to talk, begin to talk about your career as a performer. You said, you told us earlier that in 1979, and you would have been 19 years old, you already had started doing performance. Did you? How did you? How did come about that? I had never even heard of a drag queen. I didn't know there was any avenue that a guy could dress in female attire in public. I had no idea. From the time I was eight years old, was out in my mother's and dad's garage with a record player lip syncing to Funny Girl. I learned the lyrics to Don't Rain On My Parade before I could practically walk. I knew automatically and of course my parents thought I was nuts. You're hearing this kid who's out doing these big jaw long jams. So I knew that was something I wanted to do but I didn't know there was an avenue for it until one night there was a very fabulous nightclub here in Tulsa across the street from what is now TCC called Caruso's. And it had been there since the 1950s. It was a very sophisticated nightclub in the 50s called the Queen of Hearts. But by the time I came along, it had become a gay bar and was called Caruso's and it had a huge showroom that held about 250 people. And one night a young boy that I was dating said, let's go to Caruso's. He said, I'm going to sneak you in. He said, a friend of mine is performing on stage and needs a shirt from me. I'm gonna sneak you in and you sit in the back and I'm gonna go to the dressing room and give him the shirt and I'll come back and we'll watch 11 �his number and then we'll leave and get out of here before we get caught. So this boy, the gentleman performing his name was Samoy Alexander and he went by the name of Tracy Chateau, I'll never forget him. And he came out on stage, he was doing a song called The Deputy of Love and my friend brought him this western shirt covered with silver fringe and I saw Tracy come out and perform and I was like... Oh my Lord, can't, I want to do this, I want to do this. And the next individual that came out, I'll never forget it, was Trudy Tyler, who was, at that time, it was so funny, I was 19, Trudy was 21 and was already in Miss Gay Oklahoma of America. And when she came out on stage, it was a complete vision, I was just, it raptured. And I thought, this is something I'm going to do one of these days. So I... went back to work at Target and one Christmas we got some glittering ladies clothes and I saved up some money and bought a dress and the next thing you know I went to What Is Now the Eagle. This was 1979 mind you. I went to What Is Now the Eagle at that time it was Tracy's New Edition was what it was called and they had show nights, amateur nights on Monday and there was an intimate Queen there and I went in and brought a record and performed. My initial name was Anita Trick. And how that came by, I was standing there, the show director at that time, Tracy's was another very well-known Queen here in town, by the name of Miko Kassadine. to Miko Kassadine, she said, what's your name honey? And I said, My name's Kent. She said, no, what's your show name? And I said, I don't have one. She said, you have two entertainers ahead of you. You better find one, get one quickly so I can introduce you. And I'm standing there thinking, now, know, no one had checked IDs in those days. And here I am, this kid, I'm standing here thinking, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? And a guy walked by me, he said, my God, I need a drink. And I turned around and I looked at me, and I said, my name's I Need a Trick. Well, she said, what? I said, my name's, I need a drink well she immediately thought I said Anita like Anita Bryant and she did introduce me on stage as Anita Trick and that was the first performance I ever did and so every time the Eagle holds much nostalgia for me you know but that anyway that started it out. Toby - You were talking about the performance in those days, this would have been in 1979. You get a record, you had to give them a… 12 �Yeah, you know cassette, no cassettes no CDs. The well-known Queens here in Tulsa they had these large leather cases and you put your record albums in the leather cases and they had a long strap you put the strap on the side of your shoulder carried it in with your luggage and the funny thing about 45 some odd years later Chris Cole and I were working at the Bamboo and someone came up with the grand idea that they wanted to do an old-fashioned drag show and they asked they said let's do this with albums, no cassettes, no CDs, let all the performers bring record albums. And so we had a little cast put together and the young people all agreed to it. They all said, we'll go out, we'll go research and go to the record stores and we'll find record albums and so forth. Which they did. And another gentleman who was one of the people that came to Bamboo brought a portable turntable sound system, which we used. But the funny thing about it was, in the days when those shows were done, Chris and I never were responsible for putting the show together. We were never responsible for the lineup of the entertainers and so forth. And you know that night we had 15 entertainers. Every single entertainer was doing three songs a piece. Every single song was on a specific album, so we're dealing with 45 record albums and having to label them and put them and I looked at Chris and I said it didn't use it was not this hard when we were kids. She said we were responsible for this movie. Well, didn't know any different. No, no, no, that's all we did. Toby – You talked about Caruso's, talked about Queen of Hearts, E-Ball, Tracy's. Tell us some of the other clubs where you performed. Oh, was some of them were clubs, some of them were dives. There was one downtown called Friends Lounge. I don't know if you remember, if you probably don't remember that. There was one... Well, the main club in those days, the very first bar that I was supposed to go to attend, we had a huge club here in Tulsa called the Old Plantation. You remember Old Plantation? And the very night I was supposed Where was it? I can't remember. It was 51st and Sheridan. The night I was supposed to go to the Plantation, one of the patrons set it on fire and burned it to the ground. So I didn't get to attend that club, but so the next largest club that everyone wanted to 13 �entertain at besides Caruso’s downtown was Zippers at 32nd and S. Yale. And that's predominantly where I started really, really entertaining was in Zippers. John Willis who owned Zippers was a very good friend of mine. It was a gay bar. It was a big disco. It held probably a hundred and maybe a hundred and fifty people. And I performed there for quite a while until they brought in a door lady and her name was Patty Murray Handley. And we all know Patty very dearly. And it was her first job. And I walked in with my suitcase one day for a performance and she said, I need to see your ID. And I of course automatically knew I'm 20 years old. I said, well, I left it out in the car. She said, no, I need to see the ID. She said, you can't perform in here. I said, I've been performing here for over a year. She said, well, you're not going to perform in here tonight because I'm not letting you in the door. You can come back four months from now when you're 21 years old. And I had to tell everybody and I turned around and walked out. Fast forward 40 plus years, I walk into a doctor's office of Dr. Jeff Beal and I had not seen this young lady since that probably about that time. And I walk in for my doctor's appointment and she's sitting at the admissions desk. And she took one look at my name and she remembered my face. And after she checked me in, I was sitting there in the waiting room and she said, could you come over here? Could you come over here? She said do you remember me and I said well I don't think so and she explained who she was and she said I have to tell you I want to apologize she said I have thought about this for over whatever it was 35 years I have felt guilty ever since that night that I didn't allow you to come into that club and perform like you had been I was just scared if I did I'd lose my job and she said do you ever forgive me I said I wouldn't remember this if you hadn't even mentioned it but of course I did anyway. She was following the law and I told her, I you know, I don't blame you. But you should follow the law. I don't blame her one bit. Toby - Well she was following the law. We here at Oklahomans for Equality believe that... What other clubs stand out in your mind? 14 �Really those are probably the most, there was a very place, I hate to use the term seedy, that's not a very good description, but there was a place downtown called, on 11th, called The Mining Company. And I performed there a few times, but predominantly Zippers, predominantly Tracy's. Toby -Now, during this time, you were a performer. Did you ever travel to other states? Not until later. I was the first individual from the city of Tulsa to ever perform at Angles. This would have been right because I was in Oklahoma City. As I say, I performed here in Tulsa from 1979 to about 1982 and that was when I decided to move back to Tulsa, move back to with my parents, which they were living 100 miles south from here, little town called Weleetka, Oklahoma. I stayed there two years and came back and once I came back in 84, I think it was 83 or 84, I started performing again and have continued on as a regular basis ever since that time. But in 1986, Angles in Oklahoma City had opened their very first talent show you might say. It was called Drag Off or Drag Race or something like that. Anyway, I won it. And by winning it, you had to come back, was the process of elimination. And by winning it and becoming the champion, I won a two weekend a month spot on the Sunday showcase at Angles. And so ended up being the first person from the city of Tulsa ever to work there on regular basis. As Ginger Lamar referred to me, I was the queen of the Turner Turnpike. She's the only queen in town that's got tire tracks up her back. Anyway, it was a lot of fun. Toby - So I know that you have won some titles and you participated in pageants. Tell us a little bit about the pageant culture within the LGBT community. You know today it's mainstream. There's you know top-tier shows that people sit every night and watch. But I always like them. But it was not necessarily in Oklahoma, but really it was. Miss Oklahoma, the America pageant system, course, is the oldest Miss gay America is the oldest pageant system in the United States. And it was it was formed in 1972 by the late Norman Jones, Norma Christie, and has continued on. And it wasn't until about 1977 that she released the royalty rights to permit, I guess you'd say preliminary pageants to get contestants for her Miss America pageant. You had to go through and still to this day have to go through a system. You win a preliminary title. Then if you go from 15 �there that sponsors you into a state title, which of course is like say you Miss Gay Tulsa of America, then you're sponsored into Miss gay Oklahoma of America. If you win Miss gay Oklahoma of America, you immediately are responsible to represent your state at Miss America, wherever it's held, Dallas or wherever. And that's still the same. It's been since 1972 and it's still the same way. Of course, as you say, now they're much more mainstream. I really personally, for me, my personal goal was predominantly entertainment. I wasn't I was not that much interested I did miss Tulsa USA in 1987 I think I did Miss Tulsa of America probably about 1988. But I wasn't necessarily interested in entertaining in pageants because in my estimation, a title was for a year. You spent a lot of money. Sometimes you won, sometimes you didn't. And I saw very negative aspects of the pageant system that I thought I just don't need to be a part of this. There's good aspects and bad aspects of everything and I saw both. And I thought my goal is to entertain in the public. That's what I want to do. I was happy to bring a little happiness into life and into other people's lives. But it wasn't until I was 57 years old a friend of mine opened a pageant system called American National Star, an independent offshoot. I told Taylor, I said, know, I wonder if I can do this. And he said, well, why don't you start a little late? And I said, well, long as you're breathing, that's my goal. As long as you're breathing, you have a chance and you can still move and God gives you decent health, go for it. So I entered American National Star Classic and won that and of course people said some of the judges said you know what is your goal here I said to prove that no matter how old you are if there's a goal that you want to accomplish you can go for it as long as your health holds out you feel like you're physically able to do it you do it well lo and behold I won that pageant and then went on to their state title and won that too. And then, so by me doing that, I was asked by my dear friend, Brandon Patrick, aka Chanel Sterling, to at 58 years old to enter the Miss Gay Tulsa pageant. She said, have you ever been Miss Gay Tulsa? And it was a rumor from a thousand years that I was at one time a Miss Gay Tulsa, which I never had even entered the pageant except once. So I had done that. I entered Miss Gay Tulsa of America. It was majestic and came up first runner up. And then was responsible to go to Miss Oklahoma and one first 16 �run up out of 13 other kids at 59 years old and the reigning Miss Gay America walked up to me that evening and said, you are who I want to be when I grow up. And I thought that was so precious. And I am proud to say I have the highest standing score of any individual in personal interview of any Miss Oklahoma of America pageant that's ever been. And the current Miss America that year. She said, now when you go to nationals, she said, I want you to do something for me. And I said, what's that? She said, I want you to be just exactly who you are right now. Because she said, if you are, she said, they'll fall in love with you just like I have. I thought that was so sweet. Sad to say, God and nature had other plans. Because after the four day Miss Oklahoma pageant, I came down with arthritic neuropathy. And was unable to practically walk for about the next month. And so I wasn't able to attend Miss America Pageant, but things work out for the best, guess. I don't know. Anyway. Toby - Did you ever perform at Pride? Only for about 25 years. Toby - First Pride Festival. I don't know, I couldn't honestly tell you the first one I performed at, the first one that I went to was in 1993 when we were out at Mohawk Park when it was considered a... was sort of, were all sort of, people were separated. Remember, I didn't see a lot of unity out there because there were different groups sitting all around. I was glad when it finally got more unified and moved downtown. But the first Pride I ever performed at I think was about 1996. Toby - So that's the first pride you ever went to. I don't know, 1993 was the first one. Toby - Now you eventually became... Queen of Tulsa Pride. I think so. One of my proudest moments. 17 �Toby - You're still considered the… So you talked about your love of drag was you wanted to entertain I can remember you being a regular cast member at Twisted Theater at Renegades. And you were a part of the Twisted Theater with Tabitha and I can remember you were a hit as Rose on the go. You were part of the Golden Girls cast and played Rose. You remember performing at Pride Day? Yeah, that's what is the what's the park? Toby - Well today it's called Veterans Park, but at the time it was Centennial Park. That was without a doubt. we all, all of us who participated in the Twisted Theater performances consider those our happiest days. We all still talk about it. Toby - Record crowds. And Tabitha Taylor, who is now Brielle Cassell, gave me the opportunity to perform roles that I would never in my entire life had a chance to do otherwise and it was the most unique experience. we all, she stretched all of us to the full capacity that she thought we were capable of performing. And I mean, I got to do things like Betty Davis or Whatever Happened to Baby Jane, as you say, Rose in the Golden Girls, and Sissy in the Sorted Lives, and all those, we performed. Toby - I remember some beach movie. Frankie Avalon, was Frankie Avalon and the footage of Beach Blanket Bingo was one of those we did. And then Little Shop of Horrors. Basically, for those who might not understand what we're talking about, Twisted Theater was where basically they chose a film. Did a little shopping, cut out all the unnecessary subplot, kept the main storyline, and added music to accentuate the story and to move it along. The most famous one, I believe, that was ever done was The Exorcist. what the director would do, he would take out the subplot, look at the film, use music to accentuate the different part, and sometimes there would be music that didn't even have anything to do or wasn't any part of the particular film, but it still was relevant to the story itself. And that's kind of what Twisted Theater 18 �was. was like, for instance, probably one of the most famous ones was we did the Wizard of Oz. But when Dorothy came and knocked on the wizard's door, instead of the, she and the scarecrow and the cowardly lion got to Oz, instead of meeting the wizard, when she opened the door, she was confronted by by Dr. Frankenfurter from Rocky Horror Picture Show. And that particular instance, Dr. Frankenfurter happened to be me. So that's kind of what it was anyway. And it was a wonderful opportunity to perform. I don't know if we'll ever see those days again. But there have been people who have tried to copy that format. And some of them have been very successful. Probably the single most successful use of that format is is Chanel Sterling, who is without a doubt one of the single most all around talented individuals drag or otherwise I have ever known or ever met in my entire life. And a treasured treasured friend. Toby - Let's talk a little bit about your 65. So you've talked about the 1970s all the way to the present. Tell me about the first time you heard about AIDS. I was sitting in a club. I had just come back to Tulsa, as I said, in 1983, I think, 83, 84. And I was sitting in a club and a former boyfriend of mine came in and sat down. He had just come back from New York and we got acquainted and we began to visit. And I said, how was New York, Dean? And it was Dean Martin. He said, oh, kid, he said, it's horrifying. I said, horrifying? What are you talking about? He said, there's something going on there. They call it gay cancer. I said, gay cancer? What do you mean? He said, it's a disease. He said, it's killing people just right and left. He said, you'll see someone out at a bar on a Monday and they'll be gone by Thursday. And he said, it's it's unexplainable. And I never heard of it. I didn't know what it was. didn't know. I didn't understand that it was how it was transmitted and so forth. The first person in Tulsa that ever passed away that was the first person that anyone knew about that came in contact with HIV and passed away from the disease was a young man by the name of Paul Pack, who was a bartender at a club downtown called Tim's Playroom owned by... was Tim Turner, Tim Turner. And his lover was a very well-known female 19 �impersonator here in Tulsa, she was Shawna Michaels. And all we knew was that Paul got very sick and he was the first person that anyone had ever heard of that had, was Kaposi Sarcoma. And we all knew that he had... away, well automatically that kind of put a face to the situation here in Tulsa specifically. And we didn't, any of us, know, you know, what it was, how we basically came in contact with it. And we knew how it was transmitted, of course, but we didn't know the ins or outs of the disease. everyone automatically started getting tested. And I remember the very first test that I ever took was in 1986. I was 26 years old. I was terrified, absolutely terrified. And the health department. Toby – That’s where you took that test? And once they found out what you were in there, they treated you like what you were there for… they treated you like basically you were a vermin, you know, and you're just non-human. And as time went by, after, by 1987, I was with, as I said, my other half, Larry, who was a patient of Dr. Jeff Beal. And Jeff was the first medical physician that I'd ever come in contact who knew what was going on. And he basically held meetings and tried to explain to people the severity of what was happening and how there needed to be funding for research and so forth. And was very much on the forefront of that. And we realized then the enormity of the situation we were in. And the very first time, I will tell you. I didn't think I was going to get emotional about this. The first time I ever was confronted with it completely. I was at a pride celebration on the campus of the University of California in Irvine. And they had brought the AIDS quilt to the campus and they put it in the Student Union and it was in different levels of the Student Union. So they divided it up so that you could go and see it. And I was a member of the court system in California, in Orange County at that time and I was there with one of their booths. And I left during a break and I went to the Student Union and walked through and I can tell you that I don't normally get emotional in public. I'm not that kind of an individual. But when I was confronted with those faces and with the, all the, just the whole enormity of the quilt itself, I just fell into pieces. The next thing I knew, they were picking me up off the floor and handing me a box of Kleenex. And I kept saying, I'm so sorry. I said, no. Toby - Do you remember what year that was? 20 �19, let's see, I moved to California in November of 1988. So this would have been about 1990. And it was just, you know, it just hit you directly in the face. But I... After I came back to Tulsa in 92, I lost a number of friends, personal friends that passed away with AIDS. And like we were talking about on the phone last night, one of the individuals was 33 years old. And he had come in contact with it through the first sexual partner that he had ever physically been with and had been dealing with the disease from the time he was 20 until he was 33. And he was a patient of Dr. Beal’s. And I remember him saying to me, he said, I don't understand it. said, you know, you, I haven't lived any different life than you have. You and I, we've had the same experiences. Why am I in this situation that you're not? And I truthfully didn't. I said, Michael, I don't know. I don't know. But I said, all I know is I want to help you as much as I possibly can. And I watched that poor young thing, young man, 33 years old, pass away, the most horrific death I've ever seen in my life. And you just, and I struggled with the guilt. You do, you can't help it. Because you think, how did this get me? And all I can say is that I think I have been put here for a purpose. Obviously there must be some reason or another or otherwise it would have been I would have been in the same situation and the only thing that I could do in help with him there was a doctor here in town the name of Ralph Richter who was participating in a study through a company called VaxGen and a doctor had developed what he said was a vaccination for the AIDS virus. And they were doing a blind test study through this doctor's office and I participated in it. And they basically, they gave you shots of the synthetic antibodies, basically what they were. You didn't know whether you were getting the placebo or whether you were getting the vaccination itself. There was a series of 10 shots that she took once a month, 10 months. Midway through, I began to start getting ferocious colds and illnesses and coming up with all kinds of strange bruises and so forth. I finally asked one of the medical people in his office, said, how does my body know that what you're and you couldn't tell have an AIDS test because if you did you automatically came up positive. Anyway I asked the nurse, I said how does my body know that I'm not getting the actual antibodies? I said how does my body know that it's 21 �synthetic? And she really couldn't answer so I quit participating. And about four months later right before the study was over with they explained to me they said you know we were just getting ready to close we wish that you would come back and continue this and I went ahead and did it. I went ahead and finished the test honey and lo and behold After it was all over they sent me notification that I hadn't been given the vaccination Now what was sad about that? One of the reasons that I quit was I didn't know at the time that this shot these inoculations were $900 apiece and I asked the Representatives of the company that were in the doctor's office. I said what makes you think that any young gay individual walking down the street is going to have $900 or basically $9,000 on 10 shots to be able to afford this. They can't do it. I said, how many insurance companies are going to sponsor this? Well, they had no, you know, they had no response to that really. Anyway, lo and behold, of the gentleman who invented the vaccination to try to get the American Medical Association to approve it. He was a doctor of course who dealt with aged patients. He took the blood samples, drew blood from his most terminally ill patient and transfused the blood into him, so the contaminated blood into his own body. And he never came up with the disease. And he tried to present that as a case to the AMA that for sure that this vaccination actually did work and they still refused to approve it. So it was all that trouble for nothing basically. Toby - I can remember you helping us raise money to buy this building. You would perform at some of the big events that we would have. I can remember you and Chris Cole performing at the old Brady Mansion on Denver. That was such a unique experience to come down those stairs and see all those people at the foot of it made you feel quite like a celebrity. Toby - What about, let's, you and Taylor were able to be legally married. I want to share your picture. And y'all got married in drag. He was still, he was the guest speaker that year 2014, November 2014 at the transgender day of remembrance. We had been together by this time three years. And as you all know, we had gone through our first initial commitment ceremony here, but I knew that he was scheduled to go up to Oklahoma City tonspeak at that organizational meeting. And he was 22 �involved at that time with the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, which that organization. And he was very good friends of the individual who officiated our ceremony, who had gone through a minister, what's the correct term? Toby - A minister ordination. And that gentleman, the clinic, called me one day and he said, I have to tell you something. And he said, I think you should know. I said, what's that? He said, Taylor is preparing to surprise you with something. And I said, what's he going to surprise me with? He said he's bought a ring and he intends to propose marriage to you after he gets done with his speech at the organization meeting. And he said, I want to know, are you going to say yes because we've got to buy license. We've got to get everything together beforehand. We just can't throw away, have a ceremony. We need to do all this legally and I want to get it all prepared. I was quite frankly aghast. I didn't know what to say. Because the idea of being legally married had never really entered my mind. But I got to thinking personally about the situation and I thought this is this way I know that he is taken care of. I said, I know he's going to be taken care of, that there's nobody in my family that can come in and take anything away from him. That if it's all legally shared together. So I thought this is probably the best thing we can do for each other. And so he didn't know I knew anything about what was going to happen. So after he got done making his speech, he said, now I want to bring my other half up to, we were all outside with the candlelight ceremony. then I came up and he got down on his hands and knees, or she, she I should say, she got down on her hands and knees at that time and proposed. And I said, of course, yes. Well, we went into the building we were all attending this meeting. And Robin Dorner was the president of the gala, she'd already gone and bought the wedding cake and the whole nine yards had the license and everything there. The funny situation about it was we were standing on a platform about as high as this table when we to officiate the ceremony and go through the nuptials and when Clint said, 23 �do you, take this individual to be your lawfully wedded spouse to have and to hold until you part? When he had gotten aware of the situation it hit point blank in his face and he fainted. I was standing there. I watched his eyes roll, her eyes as I said she was a drag. I watched her eyes roll completely back on her head, turned snow white and started to fall. And I just grabbed her by the hand and jerked her back. He came back and I asked him, I said, what happened. He said, because I realized that this was for real, for real. This was this was going to be the lasting thing. There was no turning back, you know, the enormity of the situation. He looked me square in the face and he said, I'm glad we did it My father bless his heart. I loved him so dearly. He, when Taylor decided to become transgender or thought she was transgender. I didn't think I was going get emotional. My mother had left a pair of earrings on the table. And he had lived at this table all the time. My mother had been gone about a year. Excuse me, I can't believe this. This is crazy. She'd been gone about a year. And I didn't know what he thought about Taylor all of a sudden assuming a female identity, which he hadn't been when he came here. Because as everyone does when you're transgender you have to spend a year living in you know in your chosen attire what she was doing at the time and My dad walked over and he took the earrings off this table and he put them in Taylor's open hand And he said Mrs. Harold would be proud of you for having the courage to be who you feel that you really are. And he said, nobody can take that away from you. And that to me was just unbelievable. As time went on, Taylor decided that wasn't who he actually truthfully thought he was. Who he thought he was wasn't who he was anyway. But it was a situation that my dad did that. And I will tell you that when my father passed away, it affected Taylor almost more than it did me because he was, for the first time, had been totally accepted 100 % in that world. I had a very, very, very unique set of parents. Toby - This has been wonderful. Is there anything else you would like to say before we close out this interview? A message you might give to generations who come after you and watch this video. 24 �Be who you are. Don't let anybody, don't let anybody try to hold you down and try to make you who you aren't. You only have one chance at life and the thing you have to do with that one chance is to make the most of it as you possibly can and that's being true to yourself. That's the main goal in life is to always be true to yourself. Toby - One more time for the camera, your full legal name. Kent Wilson Harrell. Jr. 25 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2025] Kent Harrell Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcription of Toby Jenkin’s December 23, 2025, interview. The interview explores his life and experiences focusing on his journey through early life, family dynamics, understanding his sexual orientation, and his career in drag performance. Kent shares insights into the challenges faced by the LGBT community, particularly during the AIDS crisis, and reflects on his personal relationships, including his marriage to Taylor. The discussion emphasizes the importance of being true to oneself and offers advice for future generations. Subject The topic of the resource Kent Harrell Oral History Project Interview Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kent Harrell, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource December 23, 2025 2025 AIDS AIDS/HIV Dennis Neill HIV HIV/AIDs interview Kent Harrell OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Toby Jenkins transcript video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/0621abae670b12030928928a1ac6c48e.pdf 8b5551e9e03a4803a44853d96fcc142a PDF Text Text � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [1999] Know Your Legal Rights Subject The topic of the resource 1999 Oklahoma Lesbian and Gay Law Association Know Your Legal Rights Letter Description An account of the resource A letter from Kerry R. Lewis with Oklahoma Lesbian and Gay Law Association and Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) to Tom Neal, publisher and editor of Tulsa Family News, inviting him to a seminar on estate planning held at the Pride Center on February 18, 1999, 1 page. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kerry R. Lewis Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 18, 1999 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Oklahoma Lesbian and Gay Law Association, Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) 1999 Camille Quinn estate planning Kerry Lewis Kerry R. Lewis Know Your Legal Rights legal protection Oklahoma Lesbian and Gay Law Association Oklahoma Lesbian and Gay Lawyers Association Pride Center TOHR Tom Neal Tulsa Family News Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/94d27390b4ef6f944a8fee6f763e7267.jpg ab80fb6be6333553b3b7c030d7d61991 Moving Image A series of visual representations imparting an impression of motion when shown in succession. Examples include animations, movies, television programs, videos, zoetropes, or visual output from a simulation. Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MP4 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 0.3.50 Compression Type/rate of compression for moving image file (i.e. MPEG-4) MP4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2019] Conversion Therapy - KTUL Channel 8, 11-18-2019 Subject The topic of the resource Jose Vega, Deputy Director of Oklahomans for Equality and Stephen Black, First Stone Ministries Interview regarding conversion therapy. Description An account of the resource Jose Vega recounts his experience being forced to go through conversion therapy as a teenager. Stephen Black discusses the reasons why he supports conversion therapy. MP4 video available to researchers for on-site viewing only due to copyright. Location:OkEq History Project/Ddatadrive/History-General (in Omeka)/KTUL 2019-11-18 Conversion Therapy Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource KTUL Channel 8, Tulsa Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available KTUL Channel 8, Tulsa Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource November 18, 2019 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Oklahomans for Equality, First Stone Ministries Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource KTUL Channel 8, Tulsa Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource MP$ Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context https://history.okeq.org/items/show/307 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived https://history.okeq.org/collections/show/18 Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource news Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Tulsa---Oklahoma Oklahoma---Tulsa The United States of America (50 states) Channel 8 conversion therapy First Stone Ministries Jose Vega KTUL Oklahomans for Equality Stephen Black https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/3eb9b3d9bed0aa19944ec6b9ffdeed7b.pdf efd0b605911d272b176e1eac1ce9b66a PDF Text Text ��� https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/9736405acc63924b56d877f95beed32e.pdf d48e324d8c1f063fc37c3100e91105fb PDF Text Text �� https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/3853b8aad4cf42f04b93a515112e37ca.pdf 7da17af901ae11112ca4a9fc7741724e PDF Text Text ���� https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/3d853df569c3cd8e8df1db209ce94f6d.pdf fe8ae0bd8f8b91b78934686036d6aea8 PDF Text Text ����������������� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [1996] Lambda Legal Subject The topic of the resource Activism Description An account of the resource Documents from Lambda Legal Defense Education Fund, Inc. Includes press releases, marriage project overview, and marriage project resource list. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lambda Legal Defense Education Fund, Inc. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Language A language of the resource English Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Marriage Equality Advocacy Activism Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2006] Lamont Lindstrom Interview Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 15, 2006 Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcript of oral history interview with Laura Belmonte on April 15, 2006. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Lamont was born in Oakland, California on May 11th, 1953. At Berkeley, he completed a BA, MA and PhD in anthropology. Prior to spending a year in Australia on a National Science Foundation fellowship, Lamont married. They later relocated to Memphis for a teaching position and then joined the faculty at the University of Tulsa in 1982. In 1984 and 1985, he worked in Hawaii, returned to Tulsa and his wife and Lamont had 3 daughters. By 1994, he became more focused on his interest in same-sex relations. He has been in a long-term interracial relationship and discusses some of the challenges of segregation within the gay community. In 1996 he became involved with Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights, including serving on the board in the 2000s. Subject The topic of the resource Lamont Lindstrom Oral History Project interview from April 15, 2006 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lamont Lindstorm, Laura Belmonte, Dennis Neill 2006 available at Center interview Lamont Lindstrom Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript segregation TOHR TOHR Board of Directors transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Board of Directors video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2026] Laura Arrowsmith Interview Subject The topic of the resource Laura Arrowsmith Oral History Interview from April 23, 2026 Description An account of the resource In this compelling interview, Dr. Laura Arrowsmith shares her personal journey of living as a transgender woman, her medical transition, and her advocacy work in Oklahoma. Her story highlights resilience, medical insights, and the importance of authenticity. This interview with Dr. Laura Arrowsmith explores her journey as a transgender advocate, medical professional, and community leader. She shares insights on medical treatments, advocacy efforts, challenges faced due to political attacks, and her vision for future support for transgender individuals. <strong>Available for onsite research with advance permission.</strong> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource April 23, 2026 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Laura Arrowsmith, Toby Jenkins, Dennis Neill 2026 activism advocacy Dennis Neill Dennis R. Neill discrimination education healthcare interview Laura Arrowsmith OKEQ History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript Toby Jenkins transcript Transgender video Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2019] Laura Belmonte Interview Subject The topic of the resource Laura Belmonte OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Interview from February 13, 2019 Description An account of the resource Laura was interviewed on February 13, 2019, by Oklahoma State University as part of its Diverse Sexuality and Gender Oral History Project. <strong>A copy of the OSU transcript is on file at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong> Born in New York, Laura attended the University of Georgia and finished a graduate program in American History at the University of Virginia. In 1996 she joined the faculty 7 at Oklahoma State University as an assistant professor of history and became head of the history department at OSU. For six years starting in 2003, she served on the board and then as president of Oklahomans for Equality and its predecessor, Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights. Later, she joined the national board of The Equality Network and founded The Equality Network. In 2019, she became dean of the Liberal Arts and Human Sciences College at Virginia Tech. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Laura Belmonte, Angus Henderson, Micki White, Dennis Neill Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 13, 2019 2019 Angus Henderson available at Center Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project Equality Network interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Micki White OkEq Oklahoma Oral History Research Program Oklahoma State University Oklahoma State University (OSU) Oklahoma State University Archives Oklahomans for Equality Oklahomans for Equality (OKEQ) oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript OSU OSU Archives OSU Diverse Sexuality and Gender in Oklahoma Oral History Project TOHR transcript Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights Tulsa Oklahomans for Human Rights (TOHR) https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/0d426be7c4cbee728bc6662809a1c1e6.pdf 6b7bcb0c286cb5c7ddf8bc5b88622c10 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Vernon Jones Obituary Description An account of the resource Transcript:<br /><br /> <p>Vernon Leon Jones, 88, of Tulsa, Oklahoma, left this earthly plane to be with his late partner Phil Wiley, on February 5^th, 2024.</p> <p>He was born in Oklahoma, on May 3^rd, 1935. As a gay man, born and raised here, Vernon’s chosen family is vast. He is survived by Hayward Jones, Nekesha Jones, JaKobe Jones, Sue Davis, Fred Hilliard, Arlowe Clementine, Mason Thomas, Rey Thomas, and so many other individuals that claimed Vernon as their friend, family, and elder.</p> <p>Vernon was an active learner, even in his later years. He was always working to understand the world around him and was eternally hopeful for a better world. He was a strong advocate for marginalized peoples and was particularly committed to Queer and Black Liberation.</p> <p>Vernon was a clear Taurus. He was intelligent, dependable, logical, honest, and generous. Vernon spent most of his life focused on making his community better. He was a holder of receipts. A maker of spreadsheets. A true community historian and archivist.</p> <p>Vernon was dedicated to making people safer, both in his career in emergency management and his activist work in the fight against AIDS. He was not a stranger to controversy and was unrelenting in speaking his truth and the truth of the people he loved.</p> <p>In the years before his death, Vernon worked hard to ensure that the legacy of LGBTQ activism in Tulsa was properly recorded and preserved for current and future generations. His substantial archive is now housed in Oklahoma State University’s Archives. This collection will be witnessed by researchers and community members for years to come.</p> <p>Vernon was a connector. He worked hard to bring people together and was always willing to give someone support that needed it. Even in his death, he is connecting individuals over their shared love and respect for him and his life.</p> <p>Vernon fought hard for his community and the legacy of his late partner Phil Wiley. Anyone who knew Vernon was graced with stories of Phil’s life and legacy as well as their love for one another.</p> <p>In lieu of flowers, we ask that you remember Vernon by learning something new, taking a stand on social issues that are important to you, and keeping his life and legacy alive through storytelling.</p> <p>Vernon’s memorial service will take place March 1^st<span> </span>at 11 AM at Butler-Stumpff &amp; Dyer Funeral Home (<a href="https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&amp;&amp;p=bfe3dfa29743f8d2JmltdHM9MTcwODY0NjQwMCZpZ3VpZD0xYTQ3OGQzZC1hYmNmLTYxMWUtMDhjNC05ZjI0YWFiYTYwNDUmaW5zaWQ9NTc0Nw&amp;ptn=3&amp;ver=2&amp;hsh=3&amp;fclid=1a478d3d-abcf-611e-08c4-9f24aaba6045&amp;u=a1L21hcHM_Jm1lcGk9MTIzfn5Vbmtub3dufkFkZHJlc3NfTGluayZ0eT0xOCZxPUJ1dGxlci1TdHVtcGZmJTIwJTI2JTIwRHllciUyMEZ1bmVyYWwlMjBIb21lJTIwJTI2JTIwQ3JlbWF0b3J5JnNzPXlwaWQuWU43MDl4MTIzMDIxMzUmcHBvaXM9MzYuMTU2OTEzNzU3MzI0MjJfLTk1Ljk2MTc5OTYyMTU4MjAzX0J1dGxlci1TdHVtcGZmJTIwJTI2JTIwRHllciUyMEZ1bmVyYWwlMjBIb21lJTIwJTI2JTIwQ3JlbWF0b3J5X1lONzA5eDEyMzAyMTM1fiZjcD0zNi4xNTY5MTR-LTk1Ljk2MTgmdj0yJnNWPTEmRk9STT1NUFNSUEw&amp;ntb=1">2103 E 3rd St, Tulsa, OK 74104</a>).</p> PDF Text Text 1/8/26, 1:44 PM Vernon Leon Jones - Butler-Stumpff & Dyer Funeral Home & Crematory  Vernon Leon Jones May 03, 1935 - February 05, 2024 Share:    Obituary Event & Services Charities & Donations Gallery Videos https://www.butler-stumpff.com/obituaries/vernon-leon-jones/ 1/4 �1/8/26, 1:44 PM Vernon Leon Jones - Butler-Stumpff & Dyer Funeral Home & Crematory Guestbook Send Flowers Obituary Vernon Leon Jones, 88, of Tulsa, Oklahoma, left this earthly plane to be with his late partner Phil Wiley, on February 5th, 2024. He was born in Oklahoma, on May 3rd, 1935. As a gay man, born and raised here, Vernon’s chosen family is vast. He is survived by Hayward Jones, Nekesha Jones, JaKobe Jones, Sue Davis, Fred Hilliard, Arlowe Clementine, Mason Thomas, Rey Thomas, and so many other individuals that claimed Vernon as their friend, family, and elder. Vernon was an active learner, even in his later years. He was always working to understand the world around him and was eternally hopeful for a better world. He was a strong advocate for marginalized peoples and was particularly committed to Queer and Black Liberation. Vernon was a clear Taurus. He was intelligent, dependable, logical, honest, and generous. Vernon spent most of his life focused on making his community better. He was a holder of receipts. A maker of spreadsheets. A true community historian and archivist. Vernon was dedicated to making people safer, both in his career in emergency management and his activist work in the fight against AIDS. He was not a stranger to controversy and was unrelenting in speaking his truth and the truth of the people he loved. In the years before his death, Vernon worked hard to ensure that the legacy of LGBTQ activism in Tulsa was properly recorded and preserved for current and future generations. His substantial archive is now housed in Oklahoma State University’s Archives. This collection will be witnessed by researchers and community members for years to come. Vernon was a connector. He worked hard to bring people together and was always willing to give someone support that needed it. Even in his death, he is connecting individuals over their shared love and respect for him and his life. Vernon fought hard for his community and the legacy of his late partner Phil Wiley. Anyone who knew Vernon was graced with stories of Phil’s life and legacy as well as their love for one another. In lieu of flowers, we ask that you remember Vernon by learning something new, taking a stand on social issues that are important to you, and keeping his life and legacy alive through storytelling. https://www.butler-stumpff.com/obituaries/vernon-leon-jones/ 2/4 �1/8/26, 1:44 PM Vernon Leon Jones - Butler-Stumpff & Dyer Funeral Home & Crematory Vernon’s memorial service will take place March 1st at 11 AM at Butler-Stumpff & Dyer Funeral Home (2103 E 3rd St, Tulsa, OK 74104). ABOUT US “We will always be kind and we will never take advantage of you or your family at your saddest time” is our promise to you. General Price List BUTLER-STUMPFF & DYER FUNERAL HOME & CREMATORY  2103 E 3rd St Tulsa, OK 74104  (918) 587-7000  info@butler-stumpff.com  Available 24/7 https://www.butler-stumpff.com/obituaries/vernon-leon-jones/ 3/4 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [Series] Oral Histories Project > Interviews Description An account of the resource <strong>Physical Media:</strong> <br />Box 7, Folder 7 - Dr. Leisa Meyer Program<br />Box 7, Folder 8 - Interviewees Materials, Original Series 2003-2007<br /><br /><strong>Digital Media:</strong> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2007] Vernon Jones Interview Description An account of the resource Video recording and transcription of Laura Belmonte’s interview of Vernon Jones conducted on February 28, 2007. <strong>Video and Transcript available at the Dennis R. Neill Equality Center for on-site research.</strong><strong> </strong>Vernon was born on May 3, 1935, near Tulsa and passed on February 5, 2024 in Tulsa. He enlisted in the Air Force and served for four years in the military in cryptographic operations, including two years stationed in Japan. After thirteen years of marriage and two daughters, Vernon came out to his wife and family. He and his partner, Phil Wiley, were co-founders of the Tulsa Gay Alliance in 1971, and they volunteered with the Tulsa Suicide Prevention Hotline. He worked in emergency management. In the mid-1970’s. He served on a task force within the Tulsa Human Rights Commission to research consideration of ordinance changes to address LGBT discrimination. Vernon left his archives to Oklahoma State University. A copy of his October 10, 2021, interview as a part of OSU’s Diverse Gender and Sexuality of Oklahoma Oral History Project is included in Vernon’s oral history folder at OkEq. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource February 28, 2007 Subject The topic of the resource Vernon Jones Oral History Project Interview from February 28, 2007 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Laura Belmonte, Vernon Jones, Lindsey Killebrew, Matthew D. Williams, Dennis Neill 2007 available at Center Butler-Stumpff & Dyer Funeral Home Butler-Stumpff and Dyer Butler-Stumpff and Dyer Funeral Home Dennis Neill interview Laura A. Belmonte Laura Belmonte Lindsey Killebrew Matthew D. Williams Matthew Williams Obituaries Obituary OKEQ Oral History Project oral history oral history interview Oral History Project oral history transcript transcript Vernon Jones Vernon Leon Jones video https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/4d5c6b38d16a7cf7d1c5fce47fa47c7f.png 67014014ccc0f346b395920693225a77 https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/c43b4ea6c7197a8c3778ab35b5884028.pdf 35444056fd114f43bcb96a407676d282 PDF Text Text � https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/1b7f825e5050da4a0552a2542cc758ae.pdf 3e1b3159cc64f1d4bd3dfbe65e976b5a PDF Text Text ���� https://www.history.okeq.org/files/original/88c653df2bc15a563dfa631e5e6a0222.pdf 83415ef89794e5b39eaca55f55288cef PDF Text Text �� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource [2000] Col. Cammermeyer Documents Subject The topic of the resource Pride Parade 2000 Description An account of the resource Documents relating to Col. Margarethe Cammermeyer serving as co-grand Marshal of 2000's Pride Parade. Includes letter from her agent, biography, and signed contract. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lecture Literary management Inc. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource June 9, 2000 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource PDF Language A language of the resource English Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Pride 2000 Diversity Celebration 2000 Pride Parade 2000 Col. Grace Cammermeyer